Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Church Camp

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

Kayaking, friendship bracelet making, and oh yeah, threats of eternal damnation! What better way for a kid to spend the summer than at church camp? These pricy summer experiences for God-fearing kiddos might look all wholesome from the outside (a little *too* wholesome, in fact), but there have been enough allegedlys over the years to make Amanda and Isa think church camps might be serving up their 'smores with a side of cultiness. But are Christian summer camps a Live Your Life, a Watch Your Back, or a Get the Fuck Out-level cult? Actor, writer, and former church camper Joel Kim Booster joins this week's episode to help us figure it out! To support Sounds Like A Cult on Patreon, keep up with our live show dates, see Isa's live comedy, buy a copy of Amanda's book Cultish, or visit our website, click here! Thank you to our sponsors! Go to Zocdoc.com/CULT and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. Visit ritual.com/CULT to start Ritual or add Synbiotic+ to your subscription today. Download SmartNews for free today in the app store! Sounds Like A Cult listeners get 20% off your first Liquid Death apparel purchase available exclusively at LiquidDeath.com/CULT. 

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The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable facts. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Hey, Sounds Like a Cult, my name is Vika and I'm calling from New York,

but I'm from the California Redwoods and I went to Jesus Camp up there from about age 12 to 16. I think that the most culty thing about Church Camp is when in my program they made us take a vow of silence for the day, this was not optional. We all had to take a vow of silence for the day and they shamed us when we broke it that we didn't love Jesus hard enough

because we were 16 and wanted to gossip. This is Kimberly from Dallas, Texas. When I was 15, my Church Camp counselor led a game for the girls in my cabin. She told us that we were in a collapsed cave and that only a handful of us would get out alive. Then she made us choose who would live or die. Anyone who died without having a full immersion baptism

into our church would go to hell. I volunteered to die first because I was already baptized. This was super traumatic, everyone cried, everyone trauma bonded, it was super culty. Another teacher at the same camp told us that if we ever stopped believing in God, we should just kill ourselves. I am super proud to be an atheist today and still alive

because it took years to deconstruct all this BS. I was actually thinking about it and I feel like moving to LA and having an Instagram account has made me actively dumber. I don't want to be rude, but everyone in LA, dumb. Even if they started out smart? Yes. The culture here does invite you to embody dumbness.

Yes, and it's not that I don't think they started off smart. Maybe the only smart people in LA are the people who grew up in LA? That can't be true. You just really have to curate a community of rebels in this town who wear black and read books. I mean, I've lived here for almost 10 years and even so when someone says that's so LA,

it's a slur when they said that, that is a slur. Yeah, you don't want to be called that so LA. That's the last thing you want somebody to call you. Absolutely not. No, I've been wearing a lot of black recently because I'm trying to transition into my European adventure. Oh, yeah, but I feel like you've been trying to transition into grunge for months.

You showed up to our studio six months ago with Doc Martens and you were like, I'm grunge now. And then the next week you were wearing a flowery puffy shirt. I am so complex. Yeah. You know what's not that complex? What? Actually, no, it is really complex.

I wanted to say church camps, but church camps are more complex than I thought they were when we began researching this episode. Yeah, we've been talking about church camps for months now. The phrase church camp sounds very strange to me. It is strange, but I also think the stranger part is that we've re-recorded this episode three times because we just can't find the right way to talk about it.

That is the problem when we cover topics involving evangelicalism and child abuse. We get really weird about it. Yeah, we're like, this is infamy. We tried to make a cunnilingus joke, and then we were like, wait, but children and cunnilingus joke should not be in the same sentence. Yeah, yeah, a lot of allegedly is

going to pop up in this episode, babes. This can be like, oopsie daisy. Oh, no, all our uncomfortable accents are going to come out. I think the reason we've also re-recorded this so many times is because there's so much out there. There are so many different camps and so many different stories that every time

we plug into one part of our research, we're like, oh my god, there's so much more. Ugh, the rabbit holes are buttonless. Yeah, and that's why I think it's important to mention that we're not going to cover it all, as we always mention, just don't come after us. Mm-mm, culties. But we will provide a little bit of resources.

Resources, balance, that's what we have to offer here. It sounds like a cult, and an amazing guest. Yes, we have an amazing guest with, did you hear that transition from British to American? That was code switching. Yeah, that was quick. That was, we're live and in person, and we are not recording video

because we both look ugly as fuck. Yeah, I've never looked worse. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um.

Um. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Amanda Montell, author of the book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, and I'm Issa Medina, a comedian touring all over the country. Every week here on our show, we discuss a different cult-like group from the Zeitgeist,

from Child Stars to Apple, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? I do want you to live react to this one website of this one particular all girls Christian camp that I have been rubbernecking at for days now because I just truly can't even believe how culty the photo they chose to put at the top of their Squarespace

website is. It looks straight out of Midsommar, but this is an evangelical Christian summer camp. Send me the link. A Christian camp. Oh, wow. It is all, is it all girls? It's all girls in all white.

All girl, all white, all blonde, all braids, all lot. Oh no, I wear braids a lot. Do I look Christian when I wear my braids? A little bit, but like the rest of your outfit. Well, I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I dress like a modesty blogger. You do. I look like a modesty blogger right now.

No, today you look like a girl who just woke up. To shade. But this website specifically, okay, it is a Squarespace website with a bunch of white girlies holding hands, crossing arms, sitting on rocking chairs. I'm not taking it back too much. You're not? This is exactly what I would expect

from a Christian summer camp website, but that doesn't make it not a cult. That's true. Oh no, they're wearing all white. That's also something that's like a very like white family thing to do when they like wear all white at the beach and take like family pictures. So true.

It's like a Christian family. I know. Why do they do that? I don't know. And also like, why do they all have to wear the same clothes? Because it's so fucking fun to be in a room with people all wearing white. A lot of cults demand that their followers wear all white,

like the happy, healthy, holy organization, the Kundalini yoga cult. They're all like white people in all white and white turbines. Okay, yeah. Actually, I did go to my cousin's wedding this summer and like the rehearsal dinner, we had to wear all white. I was like, ooh. I camp-counseled like a Jewish weekend retreat

and we all wore all white to Shabbat and it was like so aesthetic and such a vibe. Okay, okay. It can be cute and fun. It's just a little sus when it's a Christian camp because as we're going to discuss, historically a lot of sus things have happened at Christian camp, but even aside from the sus things,

it's just very culty. It's super culty. I mean, we've quoted these aphorisms that come up all the time talking about like the subjectivity of what a cult is. Like a cult is like porn, you know it when you see it and like cult plus time equals religion, blah, blah, blah. Like it is so subjective.

You know, you can look at a room of people in all white and be like, yeah, that looks like a cult, but conformist uniforms alone are not enough. It's when there's intense like dogma and oppression that goes along with it that you're like, oh, okay, that white uniform isn't so cute anymore. Yeah, and we're not going to be talking about every church camp to exist.

There are so many types. According to this website, it says there are several different types of Christian camps. There are church camps where youth groups attend together. There are Bible camps where the primary focus is on Bible teaching and discipleship. And there are also traditional camps

that place their greatest emphasis on teaching skills and the like. Merrimack is different than any of these. I'm calling them out, Merrimack. Yeah, I guess today we're mostly focusing on Christian camps that on the surface seem like these very hunky dory parent trap style traditional camps where there's like canoeing and kayaking

and friendship bracelet making and horseback riding and like kumbaya circles. But then underneath, there's also the threat of eternal damnation and the suggestion that if you break any of the rules, you will burn in hell. Yeah, cutie, cutie, cutie, cutie, so cute. I'd rather burn in hell than be alone.

Okay. Yeah, loneliness is the ultimate human disease. Yeah, and that leads to sadness, another human disease. Okay, I also want to cover that there are other very culty like camps that don't even have to be religious. I mean, we talked about theater kids. So there's obviously like theater camp, nature camp, girl's sleep away camp, karate camp and the OG YMCA, dude,

for those of us who couldn't afford to go to sleep away camp and we did day camps. That's where I learned to play knockout, my favorite basketball game. I still love to this day, but you do need like more than three people to play, unfortunately, and I only have like one friend that I think I do suffer from the disease of loneliness.

But YMCA is a Christian camp. It's the Young Man's Christian Association. Lest we forget. Yes, and I lest forgot. Because it wasn't until we were recording this episode that I like literally totally forgot that YMCA was Christian because it's done such a good job of ingraining itself into like popular society.

Well, like we forget that America is a literal Protestant nation because it does such a good job of hiding its Christian dogma underneath like a secular aesthetic. Yeah, nothing like providing low-cost gym equipment for people to be like, yeah, I could be Christian. Yeah, I went to YMCA camp for like a couple of weeks also because I went to so many fucking camps growing up,

including an especially theater camp, nature camp, YMCA camp. I did suffer through karate camp, gymnastics camp, so many camps. Oh my gosh, you know how to play karate? But so many camps are culty for different reasons and we get suggestions for different culty camps all the time. Jewish sleepaway camp is hella culty as a Jew,

I feel entitled to be able to say that and we will cover that on another episode. I feel like Jewish camp is culty in the literal precise opposite way of Christian camp because of the sheer amount of making out that goes on. Yeah, the important part is that it's kids making out with kids. A little foreshadowing for you.

Oh my God, that is a key detail. This is Katie from Philadelphia. I have two core memories from my church camp experiences. The first one is when we all had to sign a purity pledge and we all got purity rings. And this was before I even knew what sex was and that was never explained to me. The other one is in our big church services,

people would start speaking in tongues and fainting and our youth group leaders really praised those people because they were like God's chosen ones. My name is Joseph calling from road of Spain. My cultish story was that we were at church camp one time and they shut off all the power and said they were hunting Christians. So my brother and I were like freaking out.

The whole kids camp was like crying, everyone was breaking down and there happened to be a police chase nearby. So there's a helicopter with a flood light shining into the church camp. So everyone was freaking out and then when they called us all back up to the main church, they were like that is what ancient Christians went through. And needless to say that was the last time

my brother and I ever went to church camp. We wanted to start our sort of like culty camp informal series if you will with church camp just because like I don't know. I mean, every few episodes on this podcast, I like demand that we roast some culty evangelical enterprise. Well, because it do be the root of a lot of culty things. Do be do be. We have our celebrity mega church episode,

which is like the cult of evangelicalism meets the cult of Hollywood. We had our cult of hell houses episode, which was like evangelicalism meets a Halloween party. Our youth groups episode was evangelicalism meets like a fun after school activity. And church camps is like evangelicalism meets fucking Disneyland.

Did you know anyone growing up who went to Christian camp? Not specifically Christian camp, but I did know a lot of people who went to this outdoor summer camp in Virginia that was a sleepaway camp. What was weird to me about it was that it technically was not religious, but everyone that went was like Lutheran. You know, it was like it was one of those camps that had a lot of like religious undertones,

but it wasn't necessarily religious like anyone could go. But it just happened to be that everyone that went was like white Lutheran upper middle class. Got you. So that would maybe be like the most live your life level Christian camp, a camp that sort of implicitly protestant, not overtly evangelical damnation vibes. Yeah, exactly.

And I also think obviously I don't know everyone who went there, but I do know a lot of people who went there and everyone only had good things to say about it. So was a safe place. I mean, most camps are a safe place. Just what I think is so spooky about Christian camp, it's the juxtaposition for me. It's the juxtaposition of this like innocent, vibrant,

childlike fun with religious dogma and threats. And in some cases, full blown child abuse. And when you're a child, there are so many excuses, stupid kids, not just kidding, to be culty. Like a lot of things as a kid don't seem culty, you know, like group projects or going outside in the middle of the day for recess. All these activities, they don't seem culty as your kid.

And I know it sounds wild for me to be saying that, but when we analyze these church camps, you're gonna see a lot of these activities once you break them down are very culty. Oh, 100%. I also think that we forget that we are now adults with like autonomy and independence and we can do whatever we want.

So looking back at our childhood, we're like, that's weird. Like why would we do that? But it's like when you're a kid, especially if you're maybe a homeschool kid or you're like a more shy kid and you didn't find your group in your school system, then being a part of these groups or these communities or Bible study or things like that,

and then having your best friends to go see and meet every summer, that is something that is so appealing. Oh, 1000% and you're not gonna like fixate on or even notice the scary moments when like a counselor might be threatening you, especially at a Christian camp because they're doing it with a fucking smile.

Yeah, and you're so isolated from everything and you know that it only lasts for a certain period of time that you're like, oh, this is just two, three weeks of my life. So like might as well go all in, like our guest is this. Absolutely. And you might not even realize how culty it was until much, much later on in your life because these camps do such a good job

at making it look so fun, like truly the time of your life, the most magical place on earth. Like the reason why so many culty groups target children is because they're in an identity forming phase of their life. I mean, we hopefully always are, but kids especially are trying to find their place in the world, they're formulating their sense of right and wrong

and they're really easy to corral. I mean, like when you're a kid, you just go where the adults tell you to go and do what the adults tell you to do. They literally corral to like go from English class to PE to lunch. Like you have to get, do you remember that? You have to get in line to like go in the hallway.

I remember and you know what I always thought was the cultiest part of being fucking corraled to go from class to class in elementary school when after gym class, you had to line up single file military style to get a drink of water from the water fountain. And there would be some like little dictator teachers pet kid who would be assigned to stand at the water fountain

and count down three seconds of time that each kid had to sit from the water fountain. It was like a smug child would be like, okay, sit from the water. One, two, three, you're done. Yeah. I'm fucking thirsty. And back then they didn't have liquid IV.

That's my favorite part of adulthood, just being able to drink as much water as you want. God damn it. Yeah. You know, like those elementary school teachers that take videos of themselves trying to like corral the class. Yes.

And they have different chance. Oh yeah, the chance, like one, two, three eyes on me. Yes, so one, two, three eyes on me. This elementary school teacher let the kids choose the chant and she has a chicken nugget necklace and she raises the chicken nugget to the air and she says, all hail the chicken nugget and all the kids reply, all hail the chicken nugget.

That's amazing. That's amazing. I mean, chance and collective slogans like that are the first step to cult influence. Like this is a huge reason why Christian camp is so culty to me because prayer and chance and mantras that not only involve language from the Bible but also involve sort of like Native American

culturally appropriative sort of language and like. Well, it's also because if you think about it when you're a kid, like you mentioned, you're in this like very new stage of life, AKA being young. Yeah, you're vulnerable. And you want to find community. And that's what we always talk about on this podcast

is that cults are a really good way of finding community. And so it's just important to like literally watch your back so that you can make sure you get all the positive benefits out of it without getting like too deep. The reason why these culty groups that appeal to children are I think baseline more dangerous is because a child doesn't have

their critical thinking skills sharpened. Like a child isn't listening to sounds like a call. And like, yeah, they need to be. And also not all kids communicate like transparently with their parents about what they did when they hung out with friends 100%. And also as we're going to talk in the worst case scenario part of this episode,

some parents believe more in the Christian church than they do in their kids. So if their kid's going to tell them, oh, this happened and I don't feel like it was right. The parent might be like, that's what was supposed to happen at church. Or I don't believe you. Maybe you're changing the story.

And then that's where it can get really dangerous when a parent doesn't like take what their kid is telling them at face value. This episode is sponsored by ZockDoc. Thousands of medical professionals on ZockDoc are there to help you in your time of need when you need to find a doctor. And you don't know how.

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Visit ritual.com slash cult to start Ritual or add Cynbiotic Plus to your subscription today. So let's sort of set the stage and talk a little bit about how common Christian summer camps are in the United States. They are so literally common. According to a 2020 article in the Empire State Tribune, there are over 14,000 day camps and sleepaway camps

and that stat came from the American Camp Association. So that includes secular camps. Yes, and so of those camps, almost 900 are members of the Christian Camps and Conference Association. So that is to say that a good, let me do some quick math, 900 divided by 14,000. Maybe 6% of camps in the United States

are specifically Christian affiliated. So let's maybe go through and talk about what we think are the cultiest elements of this category of camp. Because for me, out of the gate, I know we said that you might not think of Christian camp as looking like a cult, but to me, it looks exactly like a cult

because think about it. It is so fucking weird to separate children from their parents, to stick them on a remote commune, to promise that they're gonna have the time of their lives to charge thousands of dollars for the privilege to do so for like one week, two weeks, and then sneakily slip oppressive religious doctrine in there. Yeah, the funny thing about it all to me

is that on top of all of those activities that you're mentioning, it also is very normal for these Christian camps to be so, so expensive and for what? To give them like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches every day and to sleep in a literal cabin. So it's not just culty because of the religious ideology and indoctrination behind it,

but it also is giving MLM. Bro, this website that I was showing you earlier for three weeks of this outdoor camp, it's eight grand. That is so expensive. That's why my parents used to always just send me to Columbia every summer to spend the summer with my grandma because it's like a flight to and from Columbia is cheaper than going to a sleepaway camp.

Dude, well, this type of extremely capitalistic summer camp is just like so American. And it's starting kids very early on the idea that they also might need scholarship money to get into like a strata of society that they might otherwise not have access to, which we're gonna talk about with our guests. And it's like, a lot of people already have to have access

to scholarship money to go to college or university, but the idea of going into debt to like send your kids to a summer camp. It's so cost prohibitive for sure. And I didn't even realize before we started researching this episode exactly how expensive Christian camp can get. I guess, I mean, like silly me,

we know that celebrity mega churches are so bougie and hell houses are so expensive to produce. But my impression of Christian camps was shaped by the documentary Jesus Camp that I bring up all the time. Yeah, I still haven't watched it. I'm sorry. You thought it was a musical.

I like, I literally thought Jesus Camp was a musical, which it sounds like a musical, does it not? Well, they do speak in tongues and that can be very musical. What's the Mormon musical? A Book of Mormon. Book of Mormon. Jesus Camp could be like Christian version.

Oh, I mean, sign me the fuck up. Somebody write that and give me EP credit. I would devour Jesus Camp the musical, but Jesus Camp focuses on this camp for lower income kids. And the campus was kind of busted and they were sleeping in these really unbecoming barracks. And it looked cultier than this type of bougie

Disneyland-ass Christian camp that we're mostly talking about today. And so that was my first impression of Christian camp. I'm like, okay, these kids are being radicalized to become an army of Christ and they're learning how to speak in tongues and they're praying all day in this air-conditionless lodge.

And it was just like not glamorous whatsoever. But as we discovered it, as we'll hear about more from our guests, these Christian camps get so much more fun and sparkly than that camp in Jesus Camp. But there is a darker side. The child psychologist Valeria Tarrico told a piece reflecting on Jesus Camp in The Guardian

that an issue with faith-based teaching in summer camp is that it instructs children not to trust their own reason and intuition. It undermines their ability to have confidence in their own knowledge and that psychological damage follows you when you're trained not to trust yourself. So that type of psychological manipulation

goes on at these summer camps under the guise of like friendship bracelets in Kumbaya. Yeah, and there's various types of manipulation at these summer camps. The Guardian writer, Thomas Prosser, wrote that sermons at church camps often take the form of wild orations that aim to wear down the resistance of the audience

to the message. So these sermons get so wild and loud and performative that the children in the audience can get exhausted. It's like if I were to go to a Bad Bunny concert. And Bad Bunny performed all his major hits and I was like on this high and I was so excited. And then he happened to perform a song that I didn't know that was like ultra religious and culty

and was like follow me into this tunnel or something. I'd be like pop literally off King. I would be on this high and like these are children, children who are on a remote camp separate from their parents. It reminds me of this video showing Lil Nas X surprising a bunch of kids at an elementary school and singing Old Town Road.

Can I show it to you really quickly? Yes. Yes. Oh my God, Lil Nas X like showing up in this gymnasium full of amped babies. Oh, just wait. It's Lil Nas X and a bunch of elementary schoolers but it is giving tent revival.

Yeah. He's singing acapella, I'm dead. Little kids are so wild. They are like drunk adults. Yes. And so they hear a song that they know and they will literally like pop the literal fuck off. Absolutely.

And they don't understand what it means. I mean, the thing is Lil Nas X is just trying to give him a good time. Yeah, which is great. Which is great, but these Christian camps are focused on recruitment. They are specifically focused on convincing these little children who don't know up from down

into accepting Jesus Christ into their hearts. So according to the Empire State Tribune, campers are asked during these concert-like sermons to make serious spiritual decisions for themselves that they might not be equipped or informed enough to make. Like, and I quote, inviting Jesus into their hearts after they're overtired from not just the sermon but all of the activities from the day.

It's like, bro, if I've been horseback riding all day, I would accept anyone into my heart. And I bet you that it's probably before they have dinner. So they're also probably hungry. And so they're like, if you wanna eat, you gotta accept Jesus into your heart. I'll be like, come on in Jesus, I want that sandwich. And that is all juxtaposed with this very intense

us versus them dichotomy and othering that goes on. There are so many ex-church campers who have taken to Reddit and social media and talked about the pressure to express how in love you are with Jesus at these camps. And if you don't or if you're not feeling it, they really, really convince you that there is something wrong with you.

You almost have no choice. Yeah, and I feel like because you are at that church camp and you're only with your church friends, you probably feel weird to do anything differently. I think that's the importance of going to school and maybe not being homeschooled or going to public school or going to a very diverse school, is that when you don't feel comfortable

accepting one type of activity, then you have the option to look at the rest of the class and be like, oh, that wasn't for me, I can make friends in other groups. Yeah, I actually love putting it that way. And I've never thought about public school that way before, but it's totally true when you were exposed to many different people from many different belief systems

and walks of life and backgrounds. It probably does encourage you to make more choices for yourself. I mean, I say all the time that one way to avoid too much get the fuck out level of cultishness, especially during this time in history, is to diversify your social and spiritual portfolio. And research.

Diversify your research. And read. Yes, read. It's also why there is a statistic that says 99% of public school kids are gay. No, I'm just kidding. That was a joke. That was not a real statistic.

According to isamadinasbrain.gov, 99% of public school children are either gay or wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, as we get into our discussion with our very special guest, we do want to focus on a worst case scenario of the cult of church camps as we tend to do on, sounds like, a cult.

So we're going to tell just one story of a wholesome looking, very expensive Christian camp that was exposed for having a sexual predator in a prominent leadership role. And it still continues to run to this day without that predator. But a lot of the people who knew that that was happening are still in leadership positions.

Oh, and allegedly, there is still some sketchy shit going on there. Yeah. There are multiple stories like this of allegations of abuse at various church camps. But we wanted to focus on the story of Kanakuk camps. Kanakuk. Yeah. The Babadook.

The Kanakuk. Entertainment news and pop culture are moving faster than ever. Too fast. It's impossible to be caught up on all the bachelor gossip, to keep up with those Kardashians if you are in that cult and still have time to watch every Oscar-nominated movie before the big awards show. That is where Smart News comes in.

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or iPad or the Google Play Store for Android users. Your news, your way. Discover the all in one app that delivers the information you need to live smarter. We are so excited that Liquid Death is sponsoring this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. You've probably seen Liquid Death, those tall boys of water with the skulls on the front,

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like we always drink it in the studio and then I take one home with me and then I have it in my car and I'm like, ooh, if anyone saw me driving and drinking this, they would think I was drinking and driving, but it's literally water, it's water. I am literally obsessed with iced teas, so this is personally very exciting for me.

Liquid Death's new iced teas are available now with free shipping on Amazon and retailers near you. As an added bonus, sounds like a cult listeners get 20% off their first Liquid Death apparel purchase available exclusively at liquiddeath.com slash cult. Exclusions may apply, that's liquiddeath.com slash cult. So let me give a little bit of background. The Cana Cook camps are based in Branson, Missouri

and Cana Cook and its associated ministries are basically this multi-million dollar global enterprise that includes some of the largest evangelical sports summer camps in the whole world. According to a Vice article, Cana Cook touts itself as a summer wonderland set against the backdrop of Christian teachings and nearly half a million campers have passed

through its gates since it was founded in 1926. Parents pay thousands of dollars a week for their kids to mix faith with outdoor adventures like canoeing, waterslide, ziplines, archery and more. There are also over 50,000 staffers employed in Missouri at this camp. This woman, Amanda Tackett sent her daughter to this Christian camp and her daughter came back

from the camp saying that she saw a camp counselor abuse another child and she told her mom. So the mom called the camp and was like, my daughter told me this, it's very concerning, you need to look into it. Thinking that she was letting them in on something they didn't know. They were like, that is very concerning,

we're gonna look into it. They called her the next morning and they said, we're concerned about your daughter. We think that she might be lying or we're concerned about her faith and they turned it on her to make it seem like her daughter was the one who was unfaithful and doing something wrong because she exposed a part of the camp that was dark.

Okay, so this is a pattern that keeps going on at Camp Kanakuk even to this day. And this is something that I would have to guess happens at other Christian camps as well where anytime you want to speak out, express dissent, express concern, they're able to gaslight you by flipping the narrative around and saying you are displeasing Jesus

by causing trouble. Yeah, and that also makes it so that all the people who are in leadership positions at this camp are at fault for the abuse that continued to go on all of these years, Pete Newman, the director of the camp who ended up being the man that the young girl was talking about to her mother was later accused of abusing young boys for years.

He ended up abusing nearly 60 children and in 2009, he was arrested and is now finally serving multiple life sentences. But the leadership at Camp Kanakuk allowed Pete Newman to abuse children for years. And a lot of the leadership that let that happen is still functioning at that camp. Absolutely.

So what happened was Pete Newman pled guilty to sexually abusing six boys. He was arrested and charged with abusing children that he'd met at the camp and through related ministries. After that, the camp developed what they call its child protection plan. That was in 2009. And ever since it has taken pride as a leader

in child safety, it's even held seminars and given talks across the country and claimed that it's like a new leader in the space. But abuse is still allegedly going on in different ways. And I do believe personally in my opinion to my core that it's definitely still happening because when the leadership was being investigated for the crimes of Pete Newman,

they were asked, why did you not fire Pete Newman? And they said that they believed it was immature decision making and that they believed that they needed to help him understand how to make better decisions. So something that I found really colty about that was that the camp itself thought that they were above the law and that they could have their own

judicial and justice system instead of reporting him for literal crimes, they were like, we're going to fix him. I mean, this is the prophetic stuff that a lot of culty religions, and I personally think that all religions are culty in some way, but this is some of the stuff that I think is especially culty about several religions is that to your point, they believe that their church leaders

and their belief system can remedy a person for crimes, even if there's absolutely no evidence that that could be done. For example, like in Camp Canakook, that attitude is still ongoing. Obviously the camp has not learned from the case of Pete Newman. According to USA Today in the summer of 2016,

a 13 year old girl, a camper named Caroline attended, and she told a story about how one night counselors, and I quote, packed every single camper, like 300 kids into a mosh pit type of thing. They throw all these bubbles on you. It's a fun event, but it was all fun and games until Caroline felt a male camper slide his hands into her shorts.

The next day, she found out that three other girls had experienced the exact same thing from the same camper. They all reported it to their counselors who arranged a meeting with the new camp director, whose name was Keith Chancey, and she said that the camp leaders punished the girls, not the boy. She told USA Today that they said,

we believe in salvation. We don't believe in punishment. Jesus forgives, and we're going to forgive the camper. We're going to help him through his problems through Christ, basically. That is literally not reporting a criminal to the authorities. That is illegal, and that is aiding and abetting a child abuser, on top of the fact

that they're so quick to forgive a literal predator, but when children are saying that they might feel gay or when children make mistakes, then they are very quick to be like, you're going to go to hell. So it's like they pick and choose where they are forgiving and where they aren't, and that is very fucked up and cult-like. 100%. Reporters who've worked for the Springfield News Leader,

which is a publication that's affiliated with USA Today, have found out that camp leaders at Camp Kanakuk have repeatedly discarded red flags and prioritize ministering, which is their special buzzword, meaning basically healing through Christianity, healing through Christ, to those who've been accused of harassment, abuse,

instead of seeking justice. So essentially, we're going to heal you through Christ. Christ forgives is a thought-terminating cliche aimed at maintaining the camp's power and silencing accusers. Yeah, and I think this was an important case study to kind of talk about in this episode because they have literally been publicly ousted of abusing children multiple times.

One of their former leaders is now serving multiple life sentences. They have paid an undisclosed amount of settlements and having former camp members and attendees sign NDAs and non-disparaging agreements, and they're still functioning under the idea that they can just fix people who make these mistakes. And they're going to keep doing it until some legal entity

or authority figure is like, you guys are fucked up as a whole. Absolutely, and the cultiest thing about that to me is the ends justify the means attitude of like, we're serving Christ, we're teaching these children how to be soldiers in the army of Christ, and thus we need to do whatever it takes

to make sure that the camp doesn't go down in flames. And because this is a Christian country that protects Christianity, I think the law is often hesitant to get involved when they're sketchy shit, going down to church camps, whether that's like playing cruel pranks on campers to scare them into embracing Jesus

or full-blown sexual abuse. There are so many culty things about it, we keep saying the cultiest thing. For me, the cultiest things are, one, the forgiving of the counselors and thinking that they can do better than the justice system, and two, the parents who continue to send their kids back.

Like imagine being a modern day parent with the internet knowing that these are the reviews and past things that have happened at this camp, and being so Christian that you believe that the people at the camp have changed, and then sending your human child to this camp anyway. My guess is that the camp leaders are just really persuasive.

They're allegedly, in my opinion, cult leaders, right? Yeah, and the parents are probably just very religious. It's probably getting more and more fundamentalist as the years go by, because parents who are willing to forgive those kinds of acts in the past are probably more and more Christian. Well, that's the backfire effect

and the political polarization of the country in general, right? It's like tribalism is increasing, cultishness is increasing. There's politics wrapped up in these church camps now because everybody is just on their ideological island, and they probably don't wanna have to find a new non-Christian camp for their kids.

Like there's so much wrapped up into this lifestyle, this culture. That's what makes the exit costs, another red flag, so high. Yeah, that's true. It is exhausting to find new things. I mean, I'm not making any excuses for these parents, but it's like if these parents are full-time working adults

and they already know of this camp, and they're like, oh, you know, they fixed the problems. I don't know, I know how hard it can be to find a new granola that I like, you know? Like Whole Foods has upped the price of my granola, but I fucking love that shit. Do I wanna try 10 other granolas? And fuck around and find out?

No, I'm gonna get the same granola. It's true because the human brain prefers something that is familiar and predictable, even if it's bad, rather than something unfamiliar but potentially better. Yeah, it's also like when I stayed with Wells Fargo after the whole situation that they had. I was like, all banks are bad except for Starbucks.

Well, I mean, that financial piece also factors in here because I think one of the most disturbing things about this whole church camp debacle is that there's a lot of abuse that gets hidden in religious environments. But what adds fuel to the flame here is that parents are also in a sunk cost fallacy mindset because they've spent $8,000 on their kid's camp

or however much. Yeah, they're like, you weren't abused, my guy. They're like, I have $8,000 in debt to prove it. Literally, literally, that's what's so disturbing. It's like, no, you blew a bunch of bubbles. You had a good time, okay? Okay, Andrew? Yeah.

Okay, Jedediah? Yeah. And then he's like, I don't wanna go back. Oh God, all right, let's lighten the mood. Sort of, by talking to our guest, we are so excited to share with you our conversation with writer, director, comedian, actor, icon, Joel Kimbooster, who you might recognize

for his film, Fire Island. We knew we had to talk to Joel for this episode because Joel has a very unique background. He was adopted by a very, very evangelical Christian white conservative family from South Korea when he was an infant and he was homeschooled and brought up going to fancy church camp. And Joel is a standup comedian.

You can catch his special on Netflix and other short specials on Comedy Central, but he talks a lot about this experience in his standup. And so we thought, who better to interview than a funny guy about his experience? X Christian King. So we're so excited. Here's Joel.

I'm Joel Kimbooster. I'm a writer, comedian and actor. I grew up in the evangelical Baptist church right outside of Chicago, but did a lot of Bible camps. And the main one I did was called Word of Life in Shroon Lake, New York, which was a big one. It was a huge nationwide franchise of youth groups that you could do.

And then every summer it sort of culminated in going to a camp in Shroon Lake where you would do normal camp stuff, but also Word of Life had like a Bible quizzing league and also like performance categories, writing categories. It was like forensics, but just for Christianity. The New York camp was where nationals were held.

I've referenced a lot being a nationally ranked Bible quizzer, and that is the Bible quizzing league that I was a part of that was the huge sort of... Wow. That was my big thing. I was really, really excellent at Bible quizzing. I mean, that goes straight into standup experience if you think about it.

Now you're just like really good at your own material quizzing. Yeah. You're an expert in your own life. Okay, wow. Where to begin? First, could you just sort of describe what Bible camp, church camp is? What is the appeal?

What is the vibe? Well, I couldn't tell you what the appeal is. There's no part of me that remembers what the appeal is, but Bible camp, at least in my experience, it's exactly the same as a normal summer camp except there is like nightly sort of sermon, worship services that go on trying to get kids saved. And that's like the big thing.

And so they like lure you in with like paintball and zip lines and the big like inflatable bag that you can jump on in the lake and all of the normal summer camp activities. And then as a bonus, you can throw all of your secular CDs into a bonfire at the end of the week if you want. Did you do that?

Oh yeah, every year. Every single year? Every year I would like make this promise to myself that I would stop listening to secular music and then about like four or five months later, I would start buying Avril Lavigne CDs again. And then like the cycle would continue, I would go to summer camp and be like really super charged

and end up throwing them all into the water. In a way, it kind of like, do you get motivated you a little bit more because like every summer you came back with things to throw in the fire? Whereas like, you know, it's like you always knew you were gonna get cleansed through the summer. So it's like through the year you may be collected

knowing that you were gonna be saved. Yeah, no, I think it's just like, it's one of those things where like if you live in a world where if you're immersed in the ideology for a weekend like that, it's really easy to picture your life without the things that you like. Because you're having fun and everyone around you

basically believes the same thing and the production quality of these worship services was high, high, high, high, and you know, and it's really easy to get swept up in that. And so I think it's just one of those things where once the camp high sort of wears off, you remember how good Michelle Branch is. Yeah, I mean, they really are so good

at weaponizing endorphins and calling it the Holy Spirit. I love that Michelle Branch and Avril Lavigne where you're like, heathen sins. The song complicated is about you. Yeah, basically very much. That reminds me of like the only sleep away camp that I went to was running camp because I ran cross country in high school at running camp.

You're like, yeah, I'm gonna run a short run in the morning and a long run in the afternoon and I'm gonna keep running every day for the rest of my life. And then you leave camp and you're like, I'm not waking up at five AM to go for a jog. That's not happening. Except in church camp, running is like repenting.

Who do you think is like a typical church camper? Could you describe yourself at that age when you started going or who are you friends with maybe? I don't know that there is a typical one. I mean, the thing is for all intents and purposes, they were all pretty normal kids. I would say 90% of the kids that went were just normal kids who would go to youth group once a week

and church on Sundays with their family. Most of them went to public schools. There was a contingent of like homeschool, private Christian school kids that would go. You know, I was homeschooled the entire time that I was going. So for me, it was like a big opportunity to like engage with other kids and like other teens. And the whole like Christian forensics of it all

was my opportunity to do like extracurriculars. So it was kids who were like sort of nerdy about Christianity, but there were bad kids too. Like there were kids who were there who like totally were not buying into it at all. And you sort of shunned them and stayed away from them as much as possible unless they were really cool. What made them bad?

What were they doing? They were sent there by their parents and weren't buying into the ideology of the camp. That's it. They weren't bad kids by any means. I mean, maybe there was like a couple of times where like kids were maybe smoke weed or smoke cigarettes or something like that, like out in the woods.

You heard rumors of that kind of happening, but I never knew anybody or interacted with anybody like that. I would meet like kids who were maybe coming in less bought into the ideology than I was. I would say most of the kids that would go to that camp, it's so intoxicating that by the end, they would move like at least a few steps towards, you know, buying into fundamentalist,

evangelical Christianity. So would you say that like most kids chose to go then and then just a few were sent by their parents? Yeah, I would say the large majority. And there was two distant camps, one for junior high kids called the Ranch, which was like several hundred kids. And it was more of like a sort of a Western themed summer camp.

And then once you got to high school, you got to go to the rock, which was an island, like a small island in this lake in New York. And that was like much cooler. The activities were cooler and the vibe was cooler because you were in high school, the kids are older. You're more isolated. I mean, the rock alone sounds really cool.

Like the rock, you got to go to the rock. Yeah, no, exactly. Everybody wanted to go to the rock. And it was just like the whole experience too, like of driving in a van with your youth group across the country from Chicago, not stopping anywhere, not sleeping. It was like a really exciting moment for your summer.

Absolutely, there's such solidarity and you're an adolescent, so you're coming into your social skills. Who am I in this world? What did the camp mean to you? Was it more than just camp to you? It was not a hard sell for me at all. I was solely into it.

I loved it. I went three times, once on the ranch, twice on the rock. I loved it up until the time when I came back from summer camp one year and then I came out of the closet and that was the end of Bible camp for me. But for the most part, yeah, it was something that I was like deeply, deeply into.

It sounds a lot like theater camp. Like it sounds like a lot of like the activities were similar to that. And maybe it was just like, was there not another camp that you could have gone to that was less religious? There's just no way my parents would have paid for another camp that was less religious.

Okay. I wasn't interested in going to a different camp that was less religious. Like I said, I was like completely bought in. You were raised very religious. So it was kind of like an easy transition and it's probably why it never felt like an induction because it's like, it just was the next step in your life.

It was the natural thing to do. Exactly. What might like the typical day in the life of a church camper look like or what did it look like for you? What were the activities? It was, it depends on the day obviously, but like the entire campus split into teams,

red team, blue team. And so there's all these opportunities for you to win points for your team. So the whole week is a competition as well, which is like so much fun, especially like as somebody who loved the challenge on MTV, like it was my dream to compete and group games to win, capture the flag and win points for my team.

It wasn't dissimilar from like wet hot American summer. Like I said, it was completely the same as a normal summer camp, except for the parts in the evening when they would have you like sing worship songs and then ask if anyone wanted to accept Jesus into their heart. And I think that's the success of it

is because it just resembled any other normal camp. And so it was really easy to get kids who maybe were less bought in at the beginning to come in and have fun and see like, hey, you can actually have fun as a Christian too, which is I think a big part of what they were selling was like you can live like a life that's full of like fun and excitement and devote your life to Jesus at the same time.

It was like fully trying to just rebrand, I think at the time when a lot of people considered evangelical Christianity. Did you have any friends that maybe wanted to become counselors or like looked up to the counselors? Yeah, I had a bunch of friends who were counselors actually. So word of life also was a Bible college.

There was a Bible college associated with the camp and so if you went to that college, chances are you would be a counselor at the camp for the rock at some point in the summertime. And so I remember actually my pastor's son was my counselor the last year that I went to the rock and he hated me. Why?

Maybe he liked you. I don't remember exactly. I just remember him pulling me aside and telling me that I was harshing the vibe. My attitude was bad and I was bringing down that is so aggressive. That's all I remember. Do you remember having a bad attitude

or do you think he was like out to get you? Yeah, I know. It was like deeply traumatizing for me at the time, but I don't remember exactly what I did to merit that behavior. Okay, so this makes me wanna ask, what is the sort of power structure or hierarchy at church camp?

Like who has sway? The counselors and then there's like the pastor who's like the main sort of youth leader that is doing the sermons every night. They bring in guest speakers most nights as well, but like the worship leader is probably like the number one, the head honcho. You know, you mentioned once you came out of the closet

or you realized that about yourself, you decided not to go back. Do you feel like you had any friends who kind of like fell further in the hole of the camp and maybe had those same realizations, but ignored them and came back? Or did you have those experiences throughout the years? No one I knew was gay in my church,

at least not to my knowledge. And I haven't heard of anybody coming out since. It's selling a version of Christianity that is compatible with like coolness. And so if you don't have something that disqualifies you from that religion, such as homosexuality, it's really easy to be like, oh, I can, sure I can give up a few things in life

if I have access to all of this fun. So I don't know anybody else who left the church around the same time I did or anything like that, because like you go and you have fun and you realize that you can have fun as a Christian and that's a huge selling point. The only people who left that I knew of had some disqualifying factor, like I was gay,

you know, some people, their parents got divorced and so they were sort of shunned in the church or something like that. It always required something happening, like getting pregnant. But even the girls, I remember there were like two girls who got pregnant in my church and still win. It's one of those things where like homosexuality

is unique in the evangelical Christian faith because largely what they say is that Christianity is about forgiveness. So you can get knocked up and then ask for forgiveness and you're all good. The slate is wiped clean. Being gay is unique because it is a decision that you're making every day to defy God

and you can't apologize for being gay and ask for atonement and then continue to be gay. You know, so that is why it's like incompatible with being evangelical more so than like having sex out of wedlock or getting pregnant or doing this that are the other thing. Cause those are one time sins that you can just like keep re-upping forgiveness on.

So yeah, I don't know a lot of people that left beyond me because there was no reason to, unless you hated summer camp. You know, there are kids who just didn't vibe with the idea of summer camp in general. But if you liked summer camp, there was no reason to dislike this camp. Yeah, right.

It makes me wonder, have you seen Jesus camp, the documentary? Like what was your reaction to that documentary? Certainly didn't seem nearly as fun as my Bible camp. Like mine was like slick, high production values, lots of money. The cabins were amazing, like glamping cabins, you know? And like Jesus camp just felt so low rent, you know?

Bottom shelf. It was definitely for a different tax bracket than the one that I was going for. Now again, I would not have been able to go if I didn't get scholarships to go throughout the year through competing in these events like Bible quizzing. Like a big reason I was able to afford to go is because I won a scholarship via Bible quizzing.

This camp is like a summer camp on steroids. Like it just had everything, every activity imaginable, everything felt cool, everything felt new. Yeah, the way you're describing it also, it just sounds like because you were homeschooled, you just had also this like deep urge and desire to socialize with other people

and to meet people your age. And so you did everything that you could to get there. So it's almost like you were like in the cult of homeschooling that led you to like the cult of church camps. A lot of cultiness converging. Yeah, no, absolutely. How much did your camp cost? Oh God, I can't remember at this point,

but it was probably a couple of grand for the week. Yeah, I mean, that's ridiculous. Okay. But it was high production values, so worth it. Yeah, you were getting a lot. I mean, I never paid that much because of the affirmation scholarships. Right.

Well, it reminds me so much of when Lularoe and other MLMs will put on these extravagant annual conferences that last about a week and they'll hire Katy Perry or whatever and they're really trying to infuse you with the Holy Spirit, whether it's literally like the evangelical Holy Spirit or the spirit of capitalism. These events are so powerful.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Did they ever sneak any rules in that you could not cross? I mean, there was like a staunch no PDA, no touching of people of the opposite sex. Like fraternization in a romantic sense was really looked down on and checked quite frequently. Like, I remember I had a girlfriend the last year

that I went and I would get in trouble for like holding her hand or like hugging her or anything like that. And like, there were definitely kids, I think, who were like hooking up in the woods probably, you know, you heard tell of that happening. But like for me, it was like so fucking wholesome because again, I was gay

and didn't really have any interest in moving beyond holding hands or hugging. But that was like the big rule that I can remember. You weren't really allowed to like, if you brought like books or CDs or anything that wasn't Christian, you wouldn't want to be doing that out in the open. It was like living in what their idea,

the evangelical Baptist church's idea of like what utopia would look like, where it was like completely secluded from like secular life, everything from the entertainment to the atmosphere was Christian. It was like living for them in an ideal world. Yeah, and because it's such a short period of time, it kind of, it doesn't feel that bad in the moment

because you're just like having fun. No, and I think a lot of kids that went would have preferred that their entire life looked like that. Like, I don't know a lot of kids who didn't love it or want to experience that year round. People were devastated to leave. Of course. Oh my God.

I mean, it sounds like a blast. Everything from having no parents to these high production value activities, it sounds truly utopian up until the very last disqualifying factor to your point. Like it is perfect until then and not until then. Did you lose any friends when you stopped going to that camp? Yeah, almost every friend that I had

when I left the church. Nothing contentious like since, you know, leaving the church and since being an adult, like and through the advent of Facebook and other social media, like people have definitely reached out and like chatted and, you know, said they've seen some of my work and are happy for my success.

But like, it was a pretty steep cutoff. The day I left the church, I didn't really speak to anybody for many years after. Just very simply, if I could ask you, what would you say are the cultiest things about church camp in both good ways and bad ways? The thing is, is like everything about Christianity is culty, it's just sanctioned.

It's just like more socially accepted than any other cult, you know? Like the group singing, the group affirmations, the like demand for conformity to the standards of the camp and like the call to be saved at the end of every night and like the sort of emotional manipulation that happens to get you to a place

where you're ready and willing to accept Jesus into your heart. That I think is the big thing, was like the manipulation tactics that the speakers would use. It all boils down to, no matter what the message was, no matter what the story was, no matter what the song was, it all boils down to, do you wanna go to hell

or do you wanna go to heaven? And like, depending on where you're at in your life, I think like kids are especially susceptible to that, especially if you're coming from a Christian home. So like, of course you're gonna say, yeah, Jesus, get in my heart, you know? Yeah, especially for kids, because it's like you're literally a child,

you are scared of scary things and hell is the ultimate scary thing. But as an adult, you would say, I'd rather go to hell than be alone. Actually, I have one quick follow up question. Can you speak a little bit more to what some of those manipulation tactics to get that kid across the finish line looked like?

It's a lot of testimonial work, you know? It's a lot of like, I used to be a drug addict, I used to live this sinful life, my life fell apart, I lost everything and then like Jesus and the church lifted me up. And the only reason I'm alive today is because of that. They sort of eliminate the various options of not being Christian.

Like they sort of make it seem like your only two options are to live a Christian life and be fulfilled and be happy and be supported and be a part of a community or live a non-Christian life and be addicted to drugs and lose your family, lose your friends, lose everything in your life. And like, obviously those aren't the only two options but like they really hit home

that those were the only two things that you could choose from. So of course, if you're presented with these two ideas, be an ex-con, you know, or be a happy Christian, like you're gonna choose happy Christian all the time. That just makes me think of like all the bisexual people that get stuck in the gold of Christianity because it's like you are that like half and half. And so you're like, you kind of ignore a part of yourself

because you're like, oh, I can fit this mold. And it's only like years and years later that you're like, oh, ignoring a part of myself is like not letting myself be fully who I am. But Issa's not talking about herself at all. No, not at all. There's just something so, so endlessly eerie to me about that childlike portrayal of paradise

and this very grown up horror movie that is hell. Those are two things that next to each other really give me the creeps. So I would love to introduce a game to you. Sure, let's do it. It's just a classic game of would you rather but cult of church can't petition. So we're just gonna read two would you rather scenarios

you're not going to answer. Oh, sounds good. All right, the first would you rather, would you rather have to work as a counselor at a Mormon summer camp or at a satanic cult themed summer camp? I mean, definitely the satanic cult one sounds way more fun.

I mean, that's barely like a decision that I have to make. Although I will say that like Mormon boys are so hot. So Mormon men, I should say. I was meeting them boys as in the man sense. And I would definitely be into that aspect of it. The suits. The imagery of a Mormon missionary is like pretty gay at this point.

Yeah, and they walk together hand in hand. Gay I cannot believe, for sure. Also, I feel like your answer would also depend on like the production value of the camp. Oh yeah, for sure. I would rather work at a rich Mormon camp than a poor satanic one, for sure. Yeah, but your standard has been set

and that standard is very high. Okay, round number two, would you rather have to participate in one hour of Bible quiz trivia with a group of nine year olds once a week for the rest of your life or have to participate in a full day long color war competition at an all girls church camp in the middle of the woods once a month?

Color war, for sure. With the girl, with the girlies? Yeah, absolutely. I would lead my team to victory every single time I would wipe the floor with these teen girls. Although I will say neither option sounds that bad to me. I would also mop the floor with those nine year olds in Bible trivia.

You would go to nationals. Yeah, I would go to nationals once again. Unfortunately, no matter how hard I try, no matter how many drugs I do, I still remember most of the Bible trivia. So I've been trying to free up that brain space for years and years and years and it has not happened quite yet.

Okay, that childhood formative, what's your favorite Bible fun fact? I mean, none of them are especially fun facts. Sure. You know, I, yeah, I can't think of like a fun fact. Like I know a lot of facts. Okay, a dismal fact. Let's hear the first fact that comes to mind, I guess.

Top of mind. Like one of my favorite, I guess one of my favorite stories is the story of Mary and Martha, which are these two women who were being visited by Jesus and Mary was like, we gotta prep the house, we gotta clean this really important person is coming over and Jesus is there. And Martha's in the living room chilling with Jesus,

just chatting and Mary's like, what the fuck? Like, why aren't you helping me? We need to make the house clean. We need to make the food. Like this is bullshit. And Jesus is like, actually no, Martha was doing it right. I'm in your house, you should be engaging with me instead of just like doing all this busy work.

So actually you're in the wrong here, Mary. So I love that story because I feel like in every podcasting duo there is a Mary and there's a Martha. There is someone who is very attentive to the guest and is like more concerned about like the actual like recording of the podcast. And then there's somebody who's like booking the guest, running the spreadsheets,

making sure that everything is produced. And I love to listen to podcasts and decide which one is the Mary and which one is the Martha. Do you have a take? Do you have a take so far? I think, I don't have a lot to go off of. And so I'm going to say because Issa was here first, she is the Mary.

And because you came in sort of laxadaisically and just ready to chat, you're the Martha. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But that's the only data set I have to go off of. So I don't really know. And that's also because we're producer lists right now. And normally we have a producer,

but we normally have a producer. As you may or may not know, we've been through some drama. We are legally obliged not to talk about it. Any fucking way. Next round. Next round of would you rather, would you rather spend a week as a counselor

at an evangelical Christian summer camp or an entire summer partying nonstop on Fire Island? Oh, come on. This question. It's Fire Island for sure. Yeah, obviously. I actually was going to ask, do you think that The Rock inspired anything

in relation to Fire Island? I mean, no, absolutely. I often say that Fire Island is adult gay summer camp. You know, like you go for a week. You see the same people all week because there's only so much space on the island. There's activities. You're making new friends.

You have like camp boyfriends. It scratches the same itch. For sure. You know, it's no coincidence that most cults have like a camp week where they all go on a retreat together or literally like dwell on a camp compound. It's cause it's so fun.

Okay. Last round of would you rather, would you rather have to craft a beaded bracelet that says I hurt Jesus and not be able to take it off for the next 10 years or have to wear a polo shirt that says Live Laugh Christ, cargo shorts, and a fanny pack to your next three red carpet events?

The bracelet for sure, actually, because I feel like there's an irony to that. And like beaded bracelets are sort of in right now. I mean, they're- They are in the necklaces. I could rock that. And it would be funny. It would.

Then I would never waste a red carpet opportunity with cargo shorts ever. Yeah, you would even start a trend, I feel. I feel you would start a trend. Well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. If our listeners want to find you or your work, where can they do that? I hate Joel Kim on both Twitter and Instagram.

I use neither with much frequency anymore, but I do post about most of my shows and my work and stuff like that on those channels. Awesome. Well- Thanks again so much for coming on the podcast. It was great talking to you. Thanks for having me.

Hi, my name's Bethany, and I'm calling from California. The cultiest experience I had in church camp was a game we played where we pretended to be first century Christians who had to convert the non-believers who were the camp counselors. The counselors did not want to be converted and beat us with pull noodles and sticks

and screamed at us and spit on us. Hi, this is Antonia, listening from Germany. And the cultiest thing I've experienced at church camp was that every evening we would sit in like this circus like tent and sing religious songs, I suppose. And everyone was like really emotional and like people were crying. And I just sat there wondering

if those people were actually believing in God because I never really believed. And it just felt really weird, like put on. Hey, this is Laura and I am from Kansas City. And my story around church camps is a church camp that I went to between the years of 1998 and 99 called Circle C. It's called youth front camps now.

But when I went there, they would have this thing at night when we would do our gatherings of worship where they would have decibel tests. They would see how loud they could make the music. They would have a decibel reader. Apparently they thought that that would impress or entertain children. I think they were right.

Until kids started having seizures on the ground. That's when I had my first panic attack. Okay, so Amanda, out of the three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. What do you think the cult of church camps falls under? Oh God, I'm trying so hard not to bring a fucking gallon of my own bias into this decision. But my soul wants to say that I get the fuck out.

Me too. I was thinking about it as I was brushing my teeth this morning. I was like, this is GTFO. I just really think it's spooky when you combine something so fun with something so sinister. Yeah, I think I will say it's a watch your back moon,

get the fuck out, rising because there are- And what's the sun sign? Pisces. I'm just kidding. The sun sign is just emotional. But I do think it's a watch your back rising because of camps like the one we covered today are still functioning.

Like there are literal camps out there that have been accused of sexual abuse and are literally get the fuck out and they're still functioning. Yeah, I mean, there have to be Christian camps that operate responsibly. Which is why I think it's a watch your back. Yeah, I ultimately think it's a watch your back.

I just think, you know, we're in this like a laissez-faire Christian capitalist country where just like basically anything happening in America is borderline, watch your back. So accepting that, I would call it a hardcore watch your back leaning get the fuck out, but that's just me. Yeah, yeah, I think it's hardcore watch your back, leaning get the fuck out and very get the fuck out

if any camp that is still open has accusations. Yeah, like don't, yeah. Don't send your kids to those places. Don't send your kids there. Tell them to the YMCA. Send them to theater camp. Where it's not toxic at all. Yeah, fair enough.

All right, Tisha, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, J.Culti. But not too culti. Let's get started. Sounds Like A Cult is created, hosted, and produced by Issa Medina and Amanda Montell.

Our research and social media assistant is Naomi Griffin. Our theme music is by Casey Colb. This episode was edited and mixed by Jordan Moore of the Podcabin. To follow the podcast on socials, you can find us at Sounds Like A Cult pod. And Issa here to follow me on socials and see where I perform and get tickets

to all of my live shows. You can follow me on Instagram at Issa Medina, I-S-A-A-M-E-D-I-N-A-A. And Amanda here, you can feel free to find me on Instagram at Amanda underscore Montell. And check out my books, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and Words Select, a feminist guide to taking back the English language.

We also have a Patreon, and we'd appreciate your support there if you'd like. It's patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. And if you like our show, feel free to leave a rating on Spotify or Apple podcasts. And if you don't like our show, feel free to rate other podcasts the way you'd rate us. All right.

I'll see you in the next one.