Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Conversion Therapy

Episode Date: July 14, 2026

If you thought conversion therapy disappeared sometime around low-rise jeans and flip phones, you'd be very, very wrong. This week, Amanda and Reese are joined by Timothy S. Rodriguez (@timothy.s.rodriguez), author of Conversion Therapy Dropout, to expose one of the most dangerous cults we've ever covered. From church basements and megachurches to online forums and DIY "therapy," they unpack the shame, manipulation, isolation, and pseudoscience that continue to fuel an industry built on convincing LGBTQ+ people that who they are needs to be fixed. Tim shares his firsthand experience surviving conversion therapy, the long road to reclaiming his identity, and why this movement is still going strong. This one's heavy, but it's also one of the most important conversations we've had, where the only thing more disturbing than banning Britney is everything that came after. Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles, @imanharirikia.  Pre-order Iman's new book, Once in a Timeline, here! Your pre-order helps make more books possible! Thank you to our sponsors! Tear. Pour. Live More. Go to https://LIQUIDIV.COM and get 20% off your first purchase with code CULT at checkout Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus, starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur. Don't miss the three-episode premiere of the Hulu original series Furious on July 27th, only on Hulu on Disney Plus. This episode is brought to you by Activia. You might already be eating yogurt, but not all yogurts are created equal.

Activia contains over one billion probiotics per serving to survive and reach the gut alive. When it comes to gut health, Activia is the number one family doctor-recommended probiotic yogurt brand. Choose Activia, feel good from the inside out. Visitactivia.ca for more details. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Conversion therapy is hella problematic.

It's not therapy and people's sexuality cannot be converted. Sadly, there are so many stories of these former cult leader, conversion therapy, ministry leader. who did really horrible things to people who were under their care, making them act out sexual fantasies or making them talk very graphically about things that they had experienced and, like, cuddle therapy. Like, there are so many weird things that happened in conversion therapy because there was no license for conversion therapy. The end goal was, like, be straight, be heterosexual.

But all these people kind of just created and invented their own ways of doing this therapy. It's not therapy, it's torture. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of books including cultish, the language of fanaticism. And I'm your co-host, Reese Oliver, Sounds Like a Colts resident rhetoric scholar. Every single episode, we analyze a different fanatical fringe group or guru from the cultural zeitgeist, from essential oils to insoles. To try and answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult, but in. Is it really?

And if so, which of our three cult categories doesn't fall into? Live your life, or watch you back, or get the fuck out. Because here's the thing. When you hear the word cult, you might picture a satanic compound in the woods with a wild-eyed preacher on a pulpit and a bunch of barefooted weirdos

with, I don't know, dirty noses. What? But that's not always what a cult looks like these days. Cultish influence can show up on the It can show up in your fitness studios. It can show up in your corporate offices. Essentially, we are all under some level of cultish influence. It just doesn't always look the way that you might expect. No, it does not. And much like identity, cultish thinking is not binary, baby. It is a whole rainbow, a goddamn spectrum. Some cultish groups tend to be on the darker, more insidious side

like anti-vaxxers and aforementioned insoles, while others are a little bit of more colorful, whimsical, wee bit fun. I'm thinking Labubu, Mayhap's, Pokemon Collectors. Under this premise, within this podcast, we chat, we gab, we yap, and we decide where our faves fall along this rainbow road of coldishness. Wait, I just heard a joke. Where do bad rainbows go? Oh, I don't know. To Prism. I like that one. And you know what? That joke has a lot to do with today's not so joky topic where bad rainbows in the eyes of the church go to conversion therapy. Oh, yeah.

Unfortunately, today's cult of discussion truly unwimpsifies and dulls the bright colors of the world through fraudulent claims, harmful rhetoric, high control mechanisms. It's a cult that exploits our very human need for acceptance, community, a solid sense of self. And while you may think that this cult is dwindling, that it seems kind of backwards and upside down, unfortunately it's not. It's having kind of a heyday. And we're going to hear all about that from our very, very special guest Tim S. Rodriguez, who wrote an incredible book that just came out called Conversion Therapy Dropout. I guess my naive assumption was that more formal conversion therapy had kind of fizzled out, and it was more so just homophobic

teachings that remained within the bones of pre-existing fundamentalist and evangelical religious groups. I didn't really realize that there were still active groups today with the explicit purpose. Or I think I knew that they were there. I don't think I realized they were having such a moment right now. Is this something that's been on your radar lately? No. I mean, call me a bimbo, but in my like very queer bubble, everyone's just getting gayer. But I guess that's what they're trying to fight. We consider doing an episode on the cult of conversion therapy like four or five years ago. And I remember polling our listeners about it on Instagram, follow us, sounds like a cool pod on IG.

And there wasn't that much interest in it because a lot of people, I think, agreed that they thought it was a thing of the past. And it's really, really fucking not. Yeah, that's something really concerning and culty to me is that like in spite of and maybe even because of the fact that we live in such queer bubbles this has. has totally not even been on our radar. And that's something that I think is really very culty and just emphasizes the importance to me of making sure that you're keeping up with your news and all of the cultish corners of the world, even the ones that you don't particularly like, because they could be a lot more relevant to you than you think. Yeah. And also one of the reasons why I think I wasn't more aware is because as we will discuss shortly with our guests,

after people leave and survive this call, the psychological ramifications can be so dire that it's tough to like come out and speak about it formally. And this book, Conversion Therapy Dropout, is very unique. It's a very, very unique memoir. I did read another memoir about a conversion therapy survivor boy erased, which was turned into a movie. That book came out in 2016. And for some reason, like I thought that era was like the last gasp. of this whole industry movement cult. But we had the record set straight. Oh, wait.

We have the record set queer. This interview is amazing. Like, Tim is so good at talking about his story. But before we get into it, we did wanna kind of quantify how fucked up and how alive this cult of conversion therapy really is in 2026. First of all, it needs to be said that this term conversion therapy is hella problematic. It's not therapy and people's sexuality cannot be converted.

But generally, we're going to be using this term. That's the term that Tim uses. That's the term that people recognize. And it refers to the pseudoscientific practice of attempting to alter someone's gender identity, sexual orientation, or related behaviors in order to, get them aligned with their godly purpose? In the U.S., a 2019 study by Mallory Brown and Conron from the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law reported that nearly 700,000 LGBTQ-plus adults have received a form of conversion therapy at some point in their lives, with half of them

receiving these practices as teens during this ever-vulnerable time. And a study in the American psychologist found that black transgender people are disproportionately important. impacted by conversion therapy, religious trauma, and barriers to gender affirming care. So, this is a lot of people, and it disproportionately affects those most marginalized. Huge bummer. Yeah, this is a very big problem with a very extensive and brutal history. Some of the more extreme documented cases of conversion therapy include lobotomies in late 19th century United States, experimental castration of gay men in Nazi Europe, and brutal aversion

therapy in the form of electroshock and nausea-inducing drugs in American and British mental hospitals from the 40s and 60s. If anybody's seen American Horror Story Asylum, you've seen something similar. Ryan Murphy, you will not be forgiven for your crimes. Some other forms of aversion therapies that border abuse were still being used in the U.S. by religious counselors as recently as the early 2010s, which is absolutely insane and much too recent, as is all of this stuff. Truly. Now, here's what makes conversion therapy confusing as a term as a phenomenon. Obviously, when we say the word therapy, you probably picture licensed professionals. But most people offering these services aren't doctors. Most of them are non-licensed figures like religious leaders or

spiritual advisors. That doesn't mean that licensed therapists are not offering conversion therapy. And we will later mentioned a very recent Supreme Court ruling in Colorado that actually made banning conversion therapy by licensed therapists more difficult, more challenging. Regardless, all's to say that conversion therapy is happening in therapist's office, but mostly it's happening in churches, communities, and informal settings that are much harder to regulate. Much harder to regulate, much like an MLM. It's actually a lot like an MLM. But a lot worse, because much like multi-level marketing companies are really difficult to enforce any kind of regulation against them via the Better Business Bureau or the FTC because they're not,

like, a lot of the time, actual licensed businesses, they're just like random burlis. And similarly, conversion therapy exists in a very weird legal gray area because it is sometimes being practiced by therapists and sometimes not. It can sometimes be prosecuted as consumer fraud because it's, duh, ineffective horseshit. But, and this is the catch, those bans only have. apply to those licensed professionals. They don't cover religious leaders, coaches, other non-licensed providers, bootleggers,

which is like a huge loophole and honestly most of the people teaching this kind of shit. As we'll talk about later, the DIY side of conversion therapy and some of the more culturally, less clinical forms of conversion therapy are really what seems to be doing a majority of the harm nowadays. And that is the sect of this cold that is the most difficult to legally retaliate against,

which is obviously terrible. Even in places where conversion therapy is technically banned, thousands of young people are still being subjected to it often through religious or community channels. And that's what makes us so difficult to track and regulate, slips outside the boundaries of what the law can easily touch. Okay, so I think now is the time to transition into our interview. God, I can't wait for you, Colties, to hear it.

After the break, you will have the pleasure of hearing from Timothy Schrader Rodriguez, a conversion therapy survivor and author of the brand new book, Conversion Therapy Dropout. My name is Peter Parker, but I'm also Spider-Man. This July, we're faced with a threat. I can be anyone. The world may have forgotten Peter Parker. I'm just a neighbor, friendly neighbor. But he hasn't forgotten them.

Sometimes Spider-Man has to do the hard thing. That's my responsibility. Talk to Banner? I didn't know you could get that big. Spider-Man, brand-new day in theaters, July 31st. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.Care. Every style, every home. Tim, welcome to Sounds Like a cult. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Thanks for having me. So glad to be here. Could you introduce yourself and your work to our listeners?

Yeah. My name is Tim Schrader Rodriguez. I am a conversion therapy. survivor who also worked in evangelical Christian megachurches. I left that world behind. I live in New York City today. I work in tech and I just released my first book, Conversion Therapy Dropout, which is my story of all of that. From one cult to another. So just to kick us off, could you tell us about your experience with conversion therapy and did you ever think it was a cult? Sure. So I opted into conversion therapy when I was 19. That's kind of a unique part of my story. I was not coerced in by an adult or a parent. It was a choice that I willingly made. But a lot of that was because of the pressure that I felt from my community where I grew up in the Midwest being raised evangelical Christian.

And so I believed that if I wanted to keep my relationship with God, if I wanted to keep the connection that I had in church, that that was the way I had to go. And so, you know, I never initially questioned if it was a cult or not because it just seemed like it was this force that was doing some good in the world by helping people overcome their unwanted same sex. attraction. I initially was involved in an online support group where there were hundreds of other young people like me. I eventually went to one of the big national conferences from Exodus International, which was the largest organization at the time. There were thousands of other people there who all said that they had experienced this divine transformation. And so I didn't really have any ground to stand on

to question whether or not it was real or if it was effective just because there were so many other people that were brought into it. But I guess that's like classic telltale sign of a cult. I didn't know that at the time. But I would say over time as I got deeper into it and the more time I spent in conversion therapy, the more I realized that it was a controlling environment that was actually sucking the life out of us and not actually leading us to where they promised we would go. Yeah. Did you have like a shelf breaking moment you can remember? It was a combination of things. I think when I initially started in conversion therapy, the banner literally said freedom is possible. And by the end of my time in conversion therapy, they started to change their tune a little bit

so many people were dropping out of conversion therapy, we're leaving. And so they were saying, hey, you might not change, but you can choose to, like, honor God and be celibate. Or you can choose to, like, live a heteronormative life and marry a woman that you might not be sexually attracted to, but you're doing the right thing by fulfilling what God wants people to do by having celibate or straight marriages. I would say, though, the big catalyst for me was just seeing friends that I knew through my time in conversion therapy who started to fall away and embrace the lifestyle. We were always told to lose contact with those people because they were going to drag us down. And I couldn't do that though because these were my friends. And seeing how their lives

started to unravel, initially I was always told like, well, that's because they fell away. But I started to learn that a lot of the substance abuse and depression and a lot of the things that they were struggling with weren't the results of them embracing their sexuality. It was the the result of all of the toxic things that they learned about themselves in conversion therapy that led them to those destructive ends. And because going into conversion therapy, you know, it was therapy. It was talk therapy. And so for a lot of them, when they got out of conversion therapy, they were scared to go back into a therapeutic space because that had been violated for them. And so they really were neglecting to get the real help that they needed to do

to integrate themselves after being told to erase or disintegrate so much of themselves for so long. It sounds like such a complex and disorienting, disentangling process. Honestly, like a miracle that you were able to not only like get through, but process it and package it well enough to write a freaking memoir. Like, oh, bless. So my understanding of conversion therapy until fairly recently was very much shaped by Hollywood portrayals. You know, conversion therapy is portrayed as this like explicitly culty thing.

very violent, red flags abound. It's always like this isolated compound type situation. Could you sort of compare, contrast, and maybe like debunk some of the Hollywood portrayals of this cult and what the cult is really like structurally and emotionally? I mean, so those Hollywood archetypes of it aren't wrong. They're just the minority of what conversion therapy look like. For me, initially, there were no groups for me to go to because I was in the middle of Illinois. And so I had to join. this online support group that was a forum out of this organization in Dallas, Texas that still exists today. And so it was just me on a message board. This is like early 2000. So like very like

web 1.0. But I was on this forum and I was interacting with people, but it was completely controlled. Like we weren't allowed to exchange contact information. This was like right around the time that AOL instant messenger came around. We weren't allowed to share our instant messenger handles. It was a very controlled, like we could only post what the moderators could read. But it was also the first time I read other stories like mine or felt I was connecting with other people who shared a similar experience. And so there was that end to it. And then eventually I did go to an in-person support group. And very similarly, it was like AA for homosexuality. But in order to get in, you had to fill out a very invasive questionnaire about your sexual past, your spiritual life. You had to get a pastor

or someone like an adult over you to like give a reference to meet with the ministry leaders in person ahead of time to make sure that you weren't in it for nefarious. reasons. And then once you got into the group, you couldn't have contact with group members outside of the group meeting time. And obviously, that was because they didn't want us all hooking up with each other. But it again was just another one of those like controlling things that they didn't want us to have contact with each other outside of a space that they could monitor or control. And then there were these annual conferences that we would all go to. And those, it's weird to say they were fun because they kind of were. Like it was the first time I was around.

people like me. It was kind of the first taste of queer community I ever had. Oh, that is so ironic. Right? Like, I mean, we would stay up late into the night and like one of my friends like did a chair did like the Britney Spears chair dance. The gay as shit. Yeah, like is the gayest shit ever. And it was the only space that we felt safe to do that, which sounds really weird. But it's like, you know, at home we were following these like strict regimen like act like a man do what a man does. And so it was like the first time we could like let our little rainbow freak flag fly. And so it gave us this illusion or this sense of community and belonging. And as much as we were connected by those things, I mean, we were told to snuff that out immediately. Like, you know, don't be like that. But it gave us that sense of belonging

and connection that I think we all craved. And so, you know, it took many forms over those years. And then also just like individual therapy with a therapist. And that felt just like normal talk therapy, except everything that I said in that setting was weaponized against me to say, you are who you are because of trauma that happened to you. And so it's just from all angles, it's just focused on disintegrating who you are as a person, erasing those things that make us who we are and like affirming these really rigid gender roles or norms of like what it means to be a man or what it means to be a woman. And it was bad. Yeah, it sounds like there's a very large emphasis on eroding any sense of inner trust you have within yourself, even when it comes

to things like choosing the people that you surround yourself with. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about some of the expected entry and exit costs of this cult. Like what are you losing entering? What do you lose when you exit? And not only just for that, but for the person's family and friends as well. Oh, totally. I mean, entering into it, there's just a whole list of behavior modifications that we were given. Like, there was like the psychological component. There was the spiritual component because it was religious based. But there was also just like behavior modifications. So to say, okay, you have to give up all of your pop divas. You can't listen to any music that has a female vocal lead.

Like, you need to listen to men, men's music. Clothing, like, the brands of clothing that we wore, like, we weren't allowed to wear Abercrombie or Calvin Klein or anything that, like, sexualized men's bodies. Because if we put that on, we'd think about the brand that it associated. And so there was that component to it. And we had to give up any hobbies or interests that were stereotypically queer. And also, like, with media, not allowed to watch anything that, like, celebrated the gay lifestyle. So I would watch Will & Grace or Queer as Folken Secret. But like, those were all like just

expected things that we were told that we couldn't do to get into this. And then obviously leaving it, I mean, leaving it, there was no option to. It was dire. It's like if we broke away from this, we're going to go to hell. We're going to lose our relationship with God. We're going to lose our connection to our family. And so there was never really like an escape hatch. And if there was, it was presented as you're going to go into the gay lifestyle, you're going to get addicted to drugs, you're going to get AIDS. Like there was never any positive story about embracing our sexuality. So the only end goal was like being heterosexual. The fact that you are able to articulate these entrance and exit costs as if you are looking at a rubric of what makes a cult

occult and checking off these boxes sends a shiver down my spine. Like the way that you so eloquent, phrase these red flags. It makes me think, like, this has to be one of the cultiest accepted on some level groups that we've ever covered on this show, the things that you are meant to sacrifice. And, I mean, no dignified off ramp. Thinking that you're going to get AIDS and go to hell, like, what could be scarier? God, okay, so in your book, Conversion Therapy Dropout, you talk about your experience as a former member of a megachurch. And I'm wondering, in your opinion, do you think that some of the cultish tendencies of mega churches in general, even ones that people go to casually or because like Justin Bieber is

involved or whatever, like their charming leader and the insidery language have informed how conversion therapy operates. Oh, absolutely. And I mean, I think conversion therapy existed before megachurches did. But I think just the whole idea of having these like big masses of people and rallying around a belief or shared cause. Like, I mean, that's universal. But I would say, say most megachurches were shuffling people like me in the direction of conversion therapy. Conversion therapy was the only option that was presented to any person that was admitting that they were struggling with their sexuality or even if they said they were gay, all of these mega churches and religious groups would point people in the direction of conversion therapy and say,

okay, if you want to be a part of this, if you want to have connection to God, if you want belonging in this church, you need to get your life right. You need to get straightened out and you need to go to conversion therapy. It was just sort of like the past. pathway that we all ended up there. It was through our churches. It was our youth groups. It was the messages that we grew up hearing about human sexuality. There was no other option. So do you think that people who were even like more casually involved with megachurch culture than you or the most devoted participants got pushed into conversion therapy too? Oh yeah. Absolutely. And I think that one thing to realize is that a lot of people didn't go to formal conversion therapy. Like they didn't go to the

support group or the therapist or the conferences like I did, a lot of people did DIY conversion therapy by buying books or listening to their resources or just believing that in order to be accepted or loved by God or included in their faith community that they had to change their sexuality. And so whether or not they were doing that in a formal way, anyone who was praying, God please change me, God please take this away, was engaged in conversion therapy. And any evangelical Christian church, whether it's a megachurch or a small church around the corner, wants those things to be true of their people. They want to make sure that people are living in alignment with God's word. And so anything that turns a gay person straight is widely accepted.

I mean, that makes perfect sense because in a non-religious capacity, people engage in DIY therapy. Are there like TikTok conversion therapists? I would say social media is flooded with these stories. And there are groups that are putting out content, but there's also just individuals. There's people who have had these radical transformational experiences who are talking about how they used to be gay and how now they're straight. There's detransition stories. And to me, it's really scary because I started in conversion therapy in 2001.

So we didn't have the internet. We didn't have social media. I had to like dig and find the books and the resources and literally pick up a phone and call someone to like say, where should I go? where today it's as accessible as our social media feeds. And it's scary because it's dehumanizing. It is painful. Like it totally erodes a person's soul.

And yet it's so widely accepted as like the path of what it means to deny yourself to follow Christ. And so it's more pervasive now than it ever used to be. And a lot of people don't realize that. They think that it's a thing at the past, that it doesn't happen anymore. And I think that's the thing that makes me so scared of it now. and also why I wanted to write my book to get my story out there to be like, it is a clear and present danger.

That is totally terrifying, especially given just the absolute millage of different self-improvement avenues that there are on the internet. I can see something like this getting tied up in so many different formats of that. I am wondering if the path to conversion therapy kind of always functions as a pipeline from religious settings, or if you've witnessed a secular falling into this cult. I would say that by and large, there was, like, in the 1950s and 1960s, you know, McCarthy era, that's when all of these conversion practices first came into play. And so that's when the psychological community is like, well, maybe we can change a person's sexual orientation. They got rid of all of that stuff when they removed homosexuality from the DSM. So the larger non-religious community acknowledged that this does not work.

It causes harm. It is not possible for a person to change their sexual orientation. Religious communities, though, picked those ideals up and applied a spiritual layer to all of it. And so it's not just a Christian thing. There are conversion organizations within any major religious group that are active today, which is crazy. There's over 1,300 conversion therapy practitioners active in 48 states right now. And that number may actually be larger because so many of them exist underground in religious communities. Oh, my God.

We've been talking about the power of ew today, and I think that earns one. Yeah, the power of ills. What are the two states where conversion therapists are not operating? Probably Alaska and Hawaii. I was going to say, I don't know. I'll look that up. I'm just like, should we all go there? We need to move there.

Well, and the other thing to point out is there's conversion therapy bans in like 20-ish states right now. But those bans do not mean that conversion therapy is not happening in that state. It's just protecting LGBTQ youth from encountering conversion therapy in therapeutic settings. Now, all of that is in danger now. because of what's happened recently with Colorado and the Supreme Court. So it's only going to continue to get more pervasive. Yeah. And, you know, obviously, cults are good at rebranding.

They're good at renaming and hiding under euphemism. And we came across a study by the ILGA, the International Lesbian, Gay Bisexual, Trans, and intersex association, which reported that proponents of conversion therapy have started distancing themselves from this term to appear less harmful. and are even denying that gender variance is an illness. Instead, they're using terms like reparative therapy, gender exploratory therapy, gender critical therapy to reflect this shift. And oftentimes these conversion therapists say that they're promoting healthy sexuality,

you know, support, change is possible. You're just obtaining redemption. Could you talk about some of the culty terms that you encountered in you. your experience that camouflaged the harm that you endured? And what are some of the more modern terms that you've come across? Yeah. I mean, the one phrase that was very consistent over my time in conversion therapy was that the opposite of homosexuality isn't heterosexuality. It's holiness. So it's like doing the right thing. It's like living how God. So and that was kind of like masking the whole idea that like your sexuality might not change, but like you're still going to do what we say is the

right way for you to live your life. That was really big. And a lot of modern day evangelicalism is centered on total depravity. Like we are all broken. We are all in need of a savior. And so it just plays on that and says, yes, that is true. And you especially because you're struggling with your sexuality. And they use a lot of Bible verses like when Jesus says to deny ourselves and follow him. And so there was a lot of that language all throughout, but also just this whole idea that like, you're the result of your trauma. It's not nature versus nurture. Like, you're not born that way.

You learn your way into this behavior. It's because your dad was distant or your mom was overbearing or you were into more stereotypically female hobbies than male. And they try to pathologize those things that make you queer. Like musical theater? Exactly. I was a huge musical fan. And like, no, that's not natural.

Like, you need to like what guys like. And so it would pathologize all of those things and say, you know, the way to healing is to embrace, you know, the good things. And so it was always presented as you have this choice. And I think the biggest thing is that there was never a room for us to say that there was something wrong with the program. Like if it didn't work, if you did not experience the change or transformation, it wasn't anything wrong with the program.

It was nothing wrong with God. It was something wrong with you. And so it teaches you to like hate yourself and to second guess every. And so one of the biggest groups of conversion therapy ministries, Exodus International, in 2013, shut down. They're like, this doesn't work. No one's changed. Like, we've had it all wrong. They've tried to apologize. And, you know, one of the things, most of the folks who led ministries or organizations that did conversion therapy when I was in it have all recanted and said it doesn't work. This is leading people down a destructive path. But people picked up the mantle and have carried on the work. And there are all. of those groups that I mentioned. And they are reframing it. Like they're very smart to say, don't call it conversion therapy. Call it discipleship. Call it integrating person's sexuality with their spirituality of choosing, you know, to live your life in alignment with your biblical conviction. Or it's a compassionate response to people who are impacted by LGBTQ issues. And they're using

language that sounds very compassionate, very pastoral, very counseling, like very wellness, wholeness, those kinds of things. But it's leading people. down this path of self-destruction and self-hatred. This is such a crude comparison, but it reminds me of this BoJack Horseman episode where they rescue a chicken from a factory farm. If anyone has seen this episode, they might understand that. But one of the biggest culty red flags that sticks out to me in what you just said is just the total lack of ability to question anything happening around you and just the impetus

to look inward with any and all criticisms. I'm wondering if there are any other similarities with cult-like groups that you haven't pointed out yet that you'd like to highlight. So many. I mean, I could talk for hours. But I think one of the big things was that we couldn't have contact with anyone that defected from the program. We were instructed, like, don't talk to them, don't have relationships with them, cut them out of your life. Even when I left a group that I'd been involved in for two years, no one called to see where I went. No one chicked in on me. It was a group I'd spent once a week with for two years. And it's just like, well, what was I doing all this for in the first place then. Like, if you're really caring about me and wanting to be concerned about

my spiritual well-being, then like, where are you when I'm not showing up? So it was messed up. I'm curious about the people running these programs or like these therapists, they seem gay. Like, how obsessed are you? You just like want to be around gay people all the time? You know, it's like, are these conversion therapy cult leaders just gay? Like, what's the deal? I would say 99% of them are gay, and they've said that they have changed, and they see their goal and their role in life is to now help other people experience the change in transformation that they've experienced. I, thankfully, I mean, I had a very difficult time in conversion theory. It was very traumatic. But there are people who went through a lot worse things than I did.

And sadly, there are so many stories of these former cult leader conversion therapy ministry leaders who did really, horrible things to people who were under their care, making them act out sexual fantasies or making them talk very graphically about things that they had experienced and like cuddle therapy. Like there's so many weird things that happened in conversion therapy because there was no license for conversion therapy. There was no rulebook to say this is how it is. This is how it works. There was not 12 steps to follow to how to be straight. So everyone was just kind of inventing their own ways and means of doing this. Like, the end goal was, like, be straight, be heterosexual.

But all these people kind of just created and invented their own ways of doing this therapy. It's not therapy. It's torture. But, like, they thought of different ways to do it and then enforced it on people. And, like, there's some really, really messed up stories that came out of it. And people who were sexually assaulted by their therapists or who were forced to act things out sexually or be naked with other people. Like, there's so many weird stories because none of it was regulated.

Like most of this didn't happen in therapist's office. It was in church basements or offices and like strip malls of people who were just like, hey, we're going to help you figure this out. I mean, it's all unlicensed, unchecked. Following that thread of things that people might not necessarily expect, there's a lot of emphasis on the harmful psychological consequences that come along with conversion therapy, like obviously very rightfully so. But I'm wondering what you think some of the more overlooked consequences or some of the more

maybe subtle ways that conversion therapy, survivors have to confront their drama in daily life. Yeah. I know for me personally, I dealt with substance abuse and addiction for a long time after I came out of conversion therapy. And for a long time, I just assumed I was following the script that they said that would happen to people like me if they chose to embrace the gay lifestyle and that it was just kind of part of the culture to go crazy and do drugs and get drunk all the time. But I finally realized, no, like I was trying to numb the pain of everything that I had lost. and the pain and the shame that I had inherited to believe about myself for all the years that I was in conversion therapy. And so I can look back at all of that now and say I know that my substance abuse was the result of my time in conversion therapy.

And there's a number of people that I still keep in touch with who I was in conversion therapy with. And there's like five or six of us who are all sober today. And we've all dealt with addiction and self-harm like that. So that's one component. Another thing is just therapy in general. Like I mentioned this earlier, but like a lot of folks just were too afraid to go back into a therapeutic. space because that space had been violated, that trust had been broken. And even if it was with a different clinician, like, they just didn't trust that they could ever go back into a therapeutic space

and get the genuine health that they needed. Another thing that I've struggled with is just the inability to have a longstanding relationship, a longstanding committed relationship, because I just felt like I was unworthy of love that those types of relationships were wrong or sinful. And so I've had a hard time, like dating and I've had a hard time being in relationship just because I don't know how to do that because for so long I was told that it was wrong. And I think there's all that. always just going to be that residual shame. I mean, when it teaches you how to be so hyper critical of yourself, like that voice is always in the back of my mind. And the minute I quit conversion therapy, it wasn't like I was magically free in my best gay self. It took me years to peel away that shame and

that fear and that self-hatred and to finally be able to be comfortable in my own skin. And so I think that's one thing that a lot of people don't understand is it's not just something that you go into, you do it for a minute and then you're out. It's like, no, it messes up everything and how you perceive the world. You know, we were always told our first instinct was the wrong instinct, that our gut feeling was wrong, that we couldn't trust ourselves. So even just to learn to trust my own intuition, it took me a very long time. Tim, I want to like give you a hug. This is fucked up. This is, this is, this is fucked up. There is a special place in hell for people who make gay people feel this way. Like, like, what? Yeah. Like, I can't even imagine having to like relearn who you are. Like, I would

even liken that to like a brain injury of some kind? Because you're having to come to terms, like, create a whole new self. That's insane. And like, I didn't even know who I was because I was killing all of those parts of myself before I even allowed them to come to life. And so I didn't come out until I was 28. I was a virgin until I was 29. It was a wild journey because I did not know who I was because I was just following a script that had been handed to me. Oh, this book is going to help so many people. Like, thank you for writing it. Hi, everyone.

I'm Whitney Cummings, and I have a podcast called Good For You, where I don't deliver the news because I'm not a dork, but I will give you the weirdest take and truest opinion on the news. The world is insane, and sometimes it takes an insane person to make it all make sense. And when it comes to what's going on in the world, I promise not to bum you out, because that is social media's job. If you want to laugh about this whole nightmare called life, check out Good For You, New Ever You, every week. We have a couple more questions for you and then we're going to play a game. So you mentioned earlier the Supreme Court ruling in Colorado from March of 26, March of this

year that weakened the state's ban on conversion therapy for minors. Could you talk a little bit more about that and what the repercussions of it might be? Because yeah, as we were talking about, like so many people, including myself until recently thought that conversion therapy was like this retro dwindling thing, but clearly that's not the case. No. So there was a therapist in Colorado who believed that it was her right of free speech and religious freedom to be able to perform conversion therapy in a therapeutic setting. And so she got representation. It got all the way up to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court did agree with her that she should have the right to express her opinion in a therapeutic setting. And so that happened. Now, a good thing that kind of came out

of that, though, is just in the last week or so, the Colorado House has passed a bill. It essentially is creating some hedge of protection around that to say that a therapist is not allowed to force their own opinion on a minor, but they're allowed to express it, but they're not allowed to, in a therapeutic setting, say that this is the only way to go. This is the only way you can be, which is good. And they've opened up the window for the statute of limitations. So folks who have experienced conversion therapy and have had a negative experience with it, which is everyone, are able to seek out legal recourse for that. Another little interesting thing that happened as well is that the Vatican, for the first time ever, has listened to the witness of LGBTQ Catholics

on the topic of conversion therapy. And so while our Supreme Court is arguing whether or not it's an issue of free speech and religious freedom, the Vatican has said it is harmful. It causes enduring harm to anyone who is experiencing it. And so the Vatican is recognizing that this is not a good thing, which is a victory. Definitely like Catholics have a long way to go on LGBTQ inclusion. And I think, you know, what's at stake and what's endangered now is there are a lot of these conversion therapy groups that we're hoping that the court would rule in this way, one in particular that's based in California.

And they have listed their manifesto online to say that now that they know that they have the Supreme Court's backing, they want to work to get homosexuality added back in. to the diagnostic manual to say it's a disorder. They want states to start doing detransitioning services. They want insurance to cover detransitioning services. They've got a really wild agenda of things that they want to do. And this is one of the largest conversion therapy organizations that's active today. And they're represented by the same group that went with this Colorado therapist to the Supreme Court. And so I fear that we are going to see this become a little bit more mainstream. And so it's really incumbent on all of us to realize this is a clear and present danger

to advocate and to really speak up and protect LGBTQ youth because they are the ones that are most vulnerable to this. And research shows that youth who experience conversion therapy are twice as likely to attempt suicide. And so these are real lives at stake. And these bands were put in place for a reason to try to protect those children. But in Colorado, already it's been rolled back and we'll probably see that happen in other states as well. Oof, heavy, but important to get this message out there. No, incredibly important. And I'm learning a lot.

I didn't realize what's happening right now. And I am appalled. And I'm wondering what advice you would give to a young person or teen that are trying to escape a situation where they're being pushed to do conversion therapy or maybe they're already in it. Yeah. I mean, run as fast and as far as you can. And I understand that you might not be able to.

And I would say, and this is something I would say to all queer people, I think that one of the most dangerous things that conversion therapy does is it says to queer people, spirituality is not for you. I'm not saying religion, but I'm just saying like spiritual expression. And I think it's very important to maintain that spiritual connection, whatever that looks like to you. I don't believe that that has to be contained to a particular faith group or to a church building. You can experience God, experience the divine, experience the higher power in any way that works for you. But don't let that spiritual side of you die because you're being told to believe that you can't have that experience because of who you are. And look for the helpers. Look for

LGBTQ affirming churches. There are tons of those that are out there. There's many great resources that exist that can help you navigate what it means to be queer. But whatever you can do, run as fast and afar as away from anything that says that you have to change who you are to be accepted. Thank you so much for that. God, you're so good at talking about this. This is not easy. Like, you are really, do, I want to say the Lord's work, but I feel like that's not. Doing someone's work. You're doing someone's work. Okay, so now we're going to play a little game.

This game is called culty quotes. It is a classic sounds like a cult game. And it's played like this. We're going to read a sequence of quotes that were either said by a classic cult eater from history or some. conversion therapy nut job and we like found the quote online. So yeah, after we read each individual quote, you're going to guess whether it was said by a cult leader or a conversion therapy proponent whose unfortunate language we uncovered on the internet. Reese, you want to start us off? Yeah,

I would love too. The most powerful way we can live our lives is if we stick within the community. So when you come together as a community to achieve one specific goal, it's really just a beautiful thing. That's given cult leader to me. Correct you would be. That's Ms. Allison Mack of Nexium. Yes, really like second in command. Well, maybe third in command. Next quote,

All sexual sin affects the human personality like no other sin. For sexual issues run deep in our character and change is slow and uphill, but is possible nonetheless. I mean, come on. Conversion therapy. Yeah, that is from the Love One Out conference, part of Exodus International?

Are you familiar? I went to one of those conferences. Oh. How was? Still have the notebook. Oh, no. The free swag. Always seen the swag.

Yeah. Okay. Next quote. This church family is an example of what society will eventually be like all over the world. There will be at last peace on earth. I have seen this all by divine revelation. Ooh, cult. Colt.

Colty, cult. Correct. That's Saddie Jim Jones. Ah, yes. One of the worst. Okay. Next quote. If in the next moment your behavior would affect all of humanity for forever more, how would you behave? Every moment is such a moment. That's tricky because there's some like conversion therapy-esque language in there, but I'm going to say culty. Yeah, and that is the man himself, Keith Reneery, the nexium daddy. To live in harmony with the gendered world that has got to be.

that's creation. Conversion all the way. Yeah, that's a rando. I have no clue who that is and I don't want to. Yeah. You are good. Okay, we've got one more quote for you and it goes like this. And the only reason the system frowns on it is that the Bible has taught sex is evil,

which is contrary to the Bible. How could God created sexual enjoyment be a sin? The system is really screwed up. God help us. They're the ones not normal. It's so sounds conversion-esque, but conversion. Persian therapy would say like some sex is bad. So I'm going to say culty. You are correct. That was David Berg of the Children of God. You literally got a 100 on that.

It wasn't a quiz. But you like win a soft puppy or something. Oh my gosh. Tim. Thank you so much for this conversation, which was loki. Like I feel like one of the most significant conversations we've ever had on Sounds Like a Cult. If people want to keep up with you and your work, where can they do that? Yeah. I am on the Instagram. and I like the threads at Timothy S. Rodriguez. I also substack Timothy S. Rodriguez, and if they want to learn more about my book, they can go to conversion therapy dropout book.com.

Hell yeah. Thank you so much. Woo! Yes, thank you. Okay, Reese, it's time for our verdict. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out.

Which do you think? the cult of conversion therapy might fall into. Hmm, let me do a big hard think. Uh, yeah. I wish everybody a very get the fuck out. And I hope it comes fast and quick and soon and lovingly. And I hope that you're able to get some real therapy soon in a way that's non-traumatic for you. Peace and love and be very gay.

Uh, I couldn't agree more. So well put. I wish like many drag bingos and many musicals and many hugs and blowjobs and hand jobs in your future. Side note, Reese, have you ever seen, well, actually, like a central note. Have you ever seen the movie, but I'm a cheerleader? Yes. That's just shout out. That's my favorite conversion therapy rom-com.

Of which there are many, obviously. Yeah, no, that was just my favorite. Yeah. It's a story of conversion therapy survival, starring Natasha Leone and Cleoduvall and I just highly recommend Anywho, bless Tim, bless you, Reese, bless queerness, and that's our show.

Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Podcapping. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is

Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Oversinking, notes on modern irrationality, and word slut, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult, cult, cult, on on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. Hi everyone. I'm Whitney Cummings and I have a podcast called Good For You where I don't deliver the news because I'm not a dork, but I will give you the weirdest take and truest opinion on the news. The world is insane and sometimes it takes an insane person to make it all make sense. And when it comes to what's going on in the world, I promise not to bum you out. because that is social media's job. If you want to laugh about this whole nightmare called life, check out good for you.

New episodes every week.