Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Cruise Ships

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

Come party with Amanda on tour!!! April 9: Los Angeles, CA — feat. Pauline Chalamet (tickets here) April 12: Brooklyn, NY — EXCLUSIVE VARIETY SHOW feat. Ceara & Griff from Petty Crimes (tickets here) Use code CULTMAGIC for a 10% discount!! April 13: Boston, MA — EXCLUSIVE VARIETY SHOW feat. Meredith Goldstein & Sasha Sagan (tickets here) April 16: Philadelphia, PA — EXCLUSIVE VARIETY SHOW feat. Kelsey McKinney from Normal Gossip (tickets here) Ahoy, and welcome to our first ever "Interview a Listener" episode of Sounds Like A Cult!!! Could you imagine a more tantalizing subject for this week's ~dive deep~ than this gazillion-dollar industry of floating compounds where the lines between leisure and obsession blur worse than a Carnival cruiser's vision after 12 "free" Mai Tais?? Joining the pod as Amanda's guest host is Sounds Like A Cult devotee/former long-time cruise ship employee (she's fine) Emmy McGreeghan, who went positively overboard as she divulged the culty consumerism, hierarchies, exploitation, hedonistic lawlessness, and psychological tricks cruise companies use on their acolytes to turn a simple holiday into an almost religious experience. I mean, has anyone heard of the NINE MONTH CRUISE??? So much to discuss—hope you enjoy (and possibly rethink your next floating vacation).  To preorder a signed and personalized copy of Amanda's new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking, click here :) For book BTS, news about Amanda's forthcoming Magical Overthinkers podcast, and more, consider subscribing to her newsletter! Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @amanda_montell Thank you to our sponsors! Go to HelixSleep.com/CULT and use code HELIXPARTNER20 for 20% off all mattress orders AND two free pillows. Head to Squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, go to https://www.squarespace.com/CULT to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Head to FACTORMEALS.com/CULT50 and use code CULT50 to get 50% off.  Dipsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/cult. 

You're invited to the big magical cult show. Hey, culties, it's your host Amanda here with the once in a lifetime opportunity. Just kidding. Not truly trying to recruit you to a cult, but a little bit. All to say I am going on a live tour extravaganza this April to celebrate my new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking, as well as all things culty. This tour is a little bit star studded. It features special guests, including the actress Pauline Chalamet, podcaster extraordinaire's Kelsey from Normal Gossip, and Kira and Griff from Petty Crimes. There's gonna be drag performances, musical guests,

merch, libations, meet and greets, Q and A's, and so much more. I so hope to see you there. You can get tickets now at the links in our show notes, at our bio link on Instagram at Sounds Like a CultPod, or at amandamontel.com slash events. Helix is the maker of my favorite mattress and by supporting Helix, Helix will support your back. Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners. Go to helixsleep.com slash cult and use code helixpartner20. This is

their best offer yet and it won't last long with Helix better sleep starts now. Factors delicious ready to eat meals make eating better every day easy. Head to factormeals.com slash cult 50 and use code cult 50 to get 50% off. That's code cult 50 at factor meals.com slash cult 50 to get 50% off. We use our phones for everything at this point, but did you know that you can use your phone for some sexy me time? For listeners of the show, Dipsy is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to dipsystories.com slash cult. That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to D-I-P-S-E-A stories.com slash cult.

dipsystories.com slash cult. Thank you to our sponsor, Squarespace. Start with a free trial at squarespace.com. It's where dreams become websites. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to https://www.squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes

only. I mean, you had a literal love bomb quota baked into the system. I'm like so, so shook by this. There was this kind of no land, no rules, very hedonistic, like what happens at sea stays at sea. That is so fucking bananas. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of the books Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and the forthcoming

The Age of Magical Overthinking. Every week on the show, you're going to hear about a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist. From soul cycle to spiritual influencers, to try and answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A live-your-life, a watch your back, or a get-the-fuck-out level cult? After all, the word cult is up to interpretation. It is my personal belief that we are living through the most cultish era of all time,

my loves, my culties. In 2024, you could slip and fall into a cult from the comfort of your time, my loves, my culties. In 2024, you could slip and fall into a cult from the comfort of your couch, scrolling through Instagram, perusing Reddit, or going on vacation. That's right, we are doing the highly listener requested cult of cruise ships today. I am so fucking pumped and I'm interviewing a listener.

This is something that I have always wanted to do. I've always wanted to involve you culties into more of the process of making this show to really turn sounds like a cult into the proper cult. It's always been meant to be. I'm kidding. But yeah, the way that this episode topic came into the picture was I had posted a call for episode topic suggestions at the end of last year. Of course, you listeners are always welcome to email us. It sounds like a cult pod to recommend episode topics. We do look at those and then we'll like explicitly request your ideas on Instagram every so often. And normally when the requests come in, like, you know,

do horse girls or do lululemon. Often the group is already on our list or it's one that we had toyed with at some point but forgotten to put in our little spreadsheet. But cruise ships was something that had never occurred to me to add to the list before. But the second it was commented on our Instagram, first of all, it received dozens upon dozens. I want to say like well over a hundred likes. And the second it was posted, I was like, Oh my God, that is a literal genius suggestion. Because much like the cult of Disney adults, there tends to be a pretty strong stereotype out there of who tends to cruise. You know, I think of sunburn.

I think of matching neon t-shirts, maybe printed with some kind of pun featuring the name of the family who's all cruising together. I think of people losing their fucking minds on all you can drink my ties. And I think of people being a little bit territorial over their spot in the dining hall. And I kind of, I do imagine people sort of drunk watching performances by dancers who maybe didn't quite make it into Cirque du Soleil. That's what I'm sorry. That's what I think of. I don't think I'm the only one that these, it's a stereotype. And I think it brings out judgment and onlookers the way that Disney adults do. My mom always said that cruises were for the newlywed and the nearly dead. And it always just seemed culty to me because it's like

a floating capitalist, consumerist compound where you literally can't leave because you're in the middle of the ocean surrounded by people who might have E. coli, but people swear by them. So I couldn't wait to dive in. And as I mentioned, I'd always wanted to do more of like an interview with listener format. And I thought this would be the perfect one

because so many listeners responded so passionately to that suggestion. We incorporated a lot of the culty anecdotes that people submitted into the game that we'll be playing at the end of the interview. So please stick around. But there was one listener who wrote in her story and we were like, Oh my fuck, I could not think of a more perfect guest host for this episode. She did an amazing job. This interview was so much fun. I'm excited for you to hear it. We're going to talk about the hierarchies, the Dionysian rituals, the capitalist horror show, and more that exists in the seemingly innocent, actually pretty terrifying Cult of Cruising. And with that, I am so excited to welcome our special guest host. She's a former Carnival Cruise employee, so this interview is very much going to be focused on

the worker side of the Cult of Cruising. So juicy, so shocking. She escaped the cult of cruises and is now in the cult of academia, pursuing her master's degree in folklore. So cool. Please give a round of applause in your room or car or by yourself to sounds like a cult listener, Emmy. Actually wait, before I can allow this episode to continue, I just want to invite you one more time to my live tour this April in New York and Philly and Boston because it is just gonna be such a fucking party with culty gossip so extra spicy you're not gonna want to miss

it. If you want to giggle and drink cute drinks and meet some of your favorite podcasters and celebrate my new book with me, get your tickets right now, right now at the link in my show notes. Okay, onto this episode. Love you, love you, love you. Thank you. Bye. Could you introduce yourself and your work to our listeners? Yeah. So my name is Emma K. McGregan, but I go by Emmy. I am currently a part of the Cult of Academia and I go to Memorial University of Newfoundland and Labrador and I am getting my master's in folklore and my thesis right now will be focusing on occupational folklore. I love folklorists so much. I didn't really know what they were until I decided that I

needed to interview a couple of them for the book that I just finished writing. It's so fun and so much bigger than I think the term folklore gives it credit. I know. I think you think of literally like Taylor Swift album, Long Braids, Cabin in the Woods, which we also love, but like it's the study of cultural tradition and storytelling and frameworks. Okay. Before we get into today's topic, I just want to ask, what is your relationship

to Sounds Like a Cult? Oh no, I can't tell you the truth. Tell me the truth. Yeah. I've been listening to Sounds Like a Cult since early days. I actually heard your promo on Too Hot Takes and I think I hopped on maybe the third episode and I've truly listened to every episode. Wow, thanks.

So, no, it was so funny because my brother always makes fun of me because I'm like, oh, did you know this was on Sounds Like a Cult? He's like, not everything's a cult. I'm like, no, it is. And every time he's like, you're just obsessed with cults, I'm like, no, it's cause they're everywhere. Yeah, unfortunately, like absolutely a lover of the podcast. Thank you so much. Listen, like there are still, I see people being mad about the baseline premise of the show, which I understand it's a tricky line

that this show toes, not to use boating terminology, but we are joking. This is like one big cheeky melodramatic bit. However, we are also making earnest cultural commentary about how fanaticism shows up in contemporary society in places that you might not think to look. And some people cannot hold the sincerity and the jokiness slash cheekiness in their mind at the same time. But this stuff is subjective. You know, it is very funny. Sometimes we'll get reactions to the exact same episode where some listeners will be like, that is not a cult. And then others will be like, this cult is so much worse than you even made it seem. So this podcast for sure, it's absurd.

And I'm always simultaneously like, outsiders like your brother, just don't get it. And also like, I agree with them. Yes. But the discourse, it's very interesting and more than welcome, it's the whole point. You know what? And I always say, I'm like the term cult.

It's got such a dirty kind of connotation that people are like, ooh, you called it a cult. I'm like, it's fun. Sometimes, sometimes. Sometimes. No, like, and here's something too is like the word cult is so context dependent. There are times when you need to use it in earnest to set the stakes that a group is really damaging. You know, when news of NXIVM broke, the word cult was necessary in that context. Speaking of folklore, it was a framework to be like, you know how bad Jonestown was, you know how bad Heaven's Gate was, this is that bad. But the thing about language is that

there was no controlling the fact that as soon as the word cult was put on the map, thanks to groups like Jonestown and the Mansons, pop culture grabbed it, you know, as they do. And then it evolved to mean something kinda cool and edgy. And that's why we have terms like cult followed and cult classic. So like this podcast rides that line of like, when does something go from being that fanatical but not actually dangerous cult to like something more scary and the word cult can be useful

in both contexts. So anyway, thank you for understanding. But we're here to talk about the cults of damn cruise ships. How exactly are you slash have you been involved in the cult of cruising? Just please tell us your story. Yeah. So I graduated back in 2018 and I didn't know what to do. And I was like, wouldn't it be fun if I worked on a cruise ship? So I did. So I worked for Carnival Cruise Lines from August 2018 up until February 9th, 2020, which is when I off-boarded my last cruise right before the Panning, which was awesome. So I did three different cruises. I did Carnival Valor for four months and then I went and I did a swing shift for 10 weeks out in New Orleans on Carnival Dream. And then my last cruise

was the longest. I think I onboarded June 2019 and then yeah, off boarded on February 9th, 2020. So that one was a long haul. We got so much support for this idea to do the cult of cruise ships. And I'm wondering from your perspective, why? Like, for this particular time in cruise culture, but also our culture more broadly, like why were people chomping at the bit to listen to an episode on the cult of cruising? Honestly, the one thing that I always heard when I told people I used to work on cruise ships, they'd always be like, Oh, have you heard of Below Deck? But that's about yachts.

And I'm like, Yeah, I've heard of it. It's different. But there's this idea of being really excited about watching people in a fishbowl and a cruise ship is just a giant fishbowl. And so I think people, even on the cruise ships, all the guests were very interested in what our life was like, what it meant, what happens when you can't leave. What does that look like? Also too, I think cruises got put in the limelight in a weird way just because of COVID and lockdown and stuff. So I think cruise has got put in the limelight in a weird way just because of COVID and lockdown and stuff. So I think people are just really curious also on that aspect. What goes on? Totally. I have that morbid curiosity as well also because the morbid curiosity in murder

stories and true crime can feel like it's a little much, like you can burn out on murder. But cruise ships is like the perfect thing to sink your curiosity into because you're like, well, how bad can it really get? But the answer as it turns out is really bad. We'll get into that later. I want to set the scene though, with a little bit of baseline information, a bit of the history of it, some facts about how monstrous this industry has become. As of December 2021, there were 323 cruise ships operating worldwide with a combined capacity of, take a deep breath, 581,200 passengers. Okay, wow.

The industry generates an estimated 30 billion with a B dollars annually. And passenger cruising has been around since the 1800s. The cruise company P&O started it all. This cruise company still exists today. Back in the 19th century, this German shipping executive, shipping as in sending cargo, had the idea to use these massive ocean liners for luxury tourism purposes, where the journey itself would be the destination. So the first executive luxury cruise ship completed construction in 1900, and over the

next century, this space exploded. Now we have Princess Cruises, Norwegian Cruise Lines, Royal Caribbean, Carnival Cruises, shout out. As of late last year, the largest cruise ship, Royal Caribbean's Icon of the Seas, has a gross tonnage of nearly 250,000, is nearly 1,200 feet long, and holds up to 7,600 passengers. So they're essentially like these floating cities, communes, cults, however you want to phrase it. Off the bat, Emi, what are some rituals, traditions, anecdotes, and or other fun facts about cruising that outsiders might not know but that definitely make it sound like a cult? I think the hard thing is, and you talk about it in a couple of your episodes, where there's the cult in terms of the passengers and then there's the cult in terms of the crew members. So I think

we each have our own weird traditions. One, I never got to participate in this, unfortunately, but there are cruises that cross the dateline. So that go from like Alaska to Australia. And I don't think this is exclusive to cruises, but there is this weird tradition when you cross the dateline where like, I think you're throwing spaghetti at the captain, everyone's kissing a fish and like everyone participates in that. And that feels kind of culty, but kind of fun. Well, that's the thing. I would just love to hear about your personal experience. Before you were hired by Carnival Cruises, had you ever been on a cruise?

Yeah. So I had been on a cruise once before, weirdly enough, Carnival Cruise Lines. So I think I was on Carnival Liberty. It had to be 2005 or something. We did a simple five-day cruise and then really nothing after that, but I love the ocean. I was like, it would be so fun to work there. I mean, it was mostly. Okay. You had had a mostly positive experience. It wasn't that fucking deep. You were just like, I am one with the water. Let's try to turn that into a career. But then what would you say were some of the indications early on in your cruise ship employment that this was a little bit culty?

First of all, before you can go on board, you have to do something called like get your medical and I, as a Canadian citizen, free healthcare, had to drop a thousand dollars and it was basically this laundry list of medical examinations that I had to go through. One of the things I had to get was like a mammogram but I was 22 at the time and so my doctor was like, no, we're not doing this. I got a list of medical conditions I wasn't allowed to have like anxiety, depression, diabetes was also on the list. It was lengthy. I am an anxious girly. But I was like, can't tell them that. Otherwise, I don't get the job on the medical to you had to get like all your STIs checked off because they were

very open. They're like, yeah, this is a puppy pen. Wait, what? They were like, you will be fucking on board, so we better make sure you're clean. Was that the implication? Yes. Yes. That was exactly the implication. They're like, cruise life, you're living on board 24 seven.

Who else are you going to have relations with? Right? Oh my God, I didn't even think of that. Yeah. I mean, I get it from one standpoint because they're like, some things spread like wildfires. So yeah, I mean, speaking of COVID, cruise ships are known for being basically a petri dish full of whatever bacteria you could ever dream of or viral matter. Whoa, that's fucking bananas. I never thought about the

sex stuff. We're going to come back to that. So let's talk about the passengers though for a second, because there are stereotypes for who goes on cruises. And these are like the cult followers that I imagine families with kids who have disposable income, but not a lot of desire to have an authentic travel experience. Actually though, like speaking of the sex, there are stereotypes surrounding like people who go on cruises for like the swinging aspect as someone who trafficked in these waters. What do you think passengers find alluring about cruising? What makes them seek this out above any other kind of vacation?

We used to joke that you would know exactly the kind of people that you would see at port depending on what cruise ships were docked. So for example, Carnival Cruise Lines, it's families. That's who they're marketed to. That's who you're getting. Royal Caribbean, your yuppies are gonna be on there. Something like Norwegian, over 55, without a doubt. So the shorter cruises, that would be where you would get families who might not have a lot of money coming on it.

And then the longer ones tended to be families that were cruising every year. Same company, because I think what it is is we are creatures of habit. So you can go with the same company, get the same experience. And sometimes you're going to get the same people. So that's kind of nice. I always said it was like taste testing. You got to try out different kinds of islands, especially with the Caribbean cruises. I heard a lot of people actually have done that. Go on a cruise, they like an island, and then they

end up going back to that island for years after. Ah, like the free samples at Trader Joe's. Yes. I get it. But actually, I think what I'm hearing is that there's a comforting sense of predictability that comes with cruising that can make you feel really held during a time and amidst a life of chaos, which is like the allure of a lot of cults, there is structure, you will know exactly

where you're supposed to be at what specific time. It's like you are going to be taken care of, you have prepaid for that. And then also this sense of surrender. It's like, I am setting myself off to sea. I don't have to worry about shit. I'm literally leaving my problems on land and shipping myself off to the. I don't have to worry about shit. I'm literally leaving my problems on land and shipping myself off to the middle of nowhere. And that can feel probably like a real release.

It's the same reason why people like join the cult of Burning Man and shit, with a different flavor. Much different flavor. Okay, so I'm going to summarize a little bit of the origin story of this quote unquote cult and how it became the explosively consumerist industry that competes for members loyalty with escalating extravagances. According to a CNN article titled The Love Boat, how a TV show transformed the cruise industry, quote, there were only 40 cruise ships in the 1980s with an addition of 80 vessels in the 90s and a 40% increase between the years of 2000 and 2005. Nowadays, multiple cruise lines compete for patronage and gain allegiances not unlike airlines. Royal Caribbean and Carnival, okay, alma mater are the two biggest. And different cruise lines offer different sizes of ship price

points, travel routes, themes and rules. And point and mile reward systems offer passengers exclusive perks, the more that they cruise with a specific line or the more money that you spend. Now let's talk about the company side. What's the farthest you've seen a cruise company go to gain loyalty? So on the backend, we as team members

were really encouraged to make it seem like the passengers were like the coolest people ever. You were encouraged and not just encouraged, but required to make it so that everyone feels so special. So then they're like, oh, I love this company. So like we would get a certain stipend of chocolate covered strawberries that we had to send to the guests. You were given a specific allowance of how many bottles of champagne you would be allowed to send to the guests. You were given a specific allowance of how many bottles of champagne you would be allowed to send to the cabins for free. I was a youth staff, so I worked with kids, and so it was required of us. You would have

to send out a certain amount of letters written to the kids per cruise, being like, thank you so much, little Johnny. It was such an honor to have you. And if you didn't do those things, you would actually get write-ups. No. Yeah. The way that they would track it is at the end of the cruise, you would get a survey. If your name was mentioned in the survey, A plus for you. If your name wasn't mentioned in the survey or worse, if it was like said something bad, you would get a write-up or demerit points. I think when you look at it from that point, this false sense of awe towards the passengers to make them feel really loved,

it feels a little culty. I mean, you had a literal love bomb quota baked into the system. I'm like, so, so shook by this. It is also literally reminding me of Trader Joe's. It's like Trader Joe's X 1000. Wait, Trader Joe's has a nautical theme too. What is going on? It's a conspiracy. It's the boats. Trader Joe's should X collab with Carnival Cruises. A Trader Joe's cruise? All you can eat cookie butter? Can you imagine the loyalty? And also like this toxic positivity that you're supposed to embody as an employee,

it's very much again in the same category as like the cult of Disney adults. We are just truly forcing a separation between real life and this escapist moment that I totally understand but at the same time can mask some insidiousness. What's the most over the top perk you've seen for a higher ranking passenger? Well, one of the crazy things that I saw was in the casino, if you lost enough money, they would pay for your future cruises. And so there was like one woman I was talking to who she's like, yeah, in the past five years, we've been on like X amount of cruises and three of them are free because my husband just spend so much money.

Wow. Speaking of break you down to build you up. I mean, I guess it makes sense if they're spending enough money, why wouldn't you give them free cruises? I do know people were really excited because your cards are dependent about how many days you cruise. So I do remember a couple of people who they'd be going from one rank to the other in the middle of their cruise. So they go up to guest services and they're like, I want my gold card. Did they get any perks or was it just the status symbol? I don't really know. Oh, okay. So there were like different color cards or lanyards or whatever that would show my gold card. Did they get any perks or was it just the status symbol? I don't really know.

Okay. So there were like different color cards or lanyards or whatever that would show you where along the passenger hierarchy you fell and reaching gold status, say, in the middle of your trip felt like some profound accomplishment. Yeah. I mean, all cults have something like this. Like a Nexium sash, this symbolic gesture that like you are superior that actually doesn't have any inherent value. Can you talk a little bit more about your role? Please just tell me about what you had to do. Okay. Yeah. So I worked within the entertainment department and so we were called youth staff and we provided the entertainment

to the youth. So on Carnival there are like three tiers. There's Camp Ocean, Circle C and then Club O2. Camp Ocean is for ages 12 to 14 I believe and then Club O2 is for ages 15 to 17 and then Circle C is ages two to 11. So I kind of primarily work for the two to 11 year olds. I was also what you would call an animator. So Carnival Cruise Lines does have affiliations with Dr. Seuss. So I was friends, wink, wink with Sam I am and thing two

and my favorite, the Grinch. Only thing two. Yeah, because I couldn't be both. Wait, wait, sorry, I'm so dumb. Can you explain what you're saying? You were friends with them? Sorry, so this is like a Disney thing, but for Disney, you're not allowed to say

that you were ever a character. You always have to say you were friends with them. Oh. So I played Sam, I am, thing two, and The Grinch was my favorite to be. And then my last contract, I ended up training to be assistant youth director. So that's when things kind of turned a bit culty because I basically was working 24 seven. Explain like what happened to you?

Well, just because like you have a cell phone and you have to be available 24 seven and we ended up getting short staff. So for the month of December, I truly don't think I got off the boat. I got really sick. Was it COVID? I don't know, because it was around that time. But when I was really sick, I was trying to remember the last time I had touched land and it had literally been a month. When you say that, I mean, I can relate to the feeling. I actually love that as a phrase. If you work from home or like if you have no boundaries separating your life and your work and you don't remember the last time you like enjoyed yourself, I like the idea of saying, I don't remember the last time I touched land. But for you, it was actually

true. No, it was really true. Because there were certain rules too, where like if I was getting off the boat, I would have to designate someone to be in my position to hold my cell phone in case an emergency happened. And again, we were short staff, there was a multitude of situations. So like I was most senior rank. December is always the busiest time on Carnival Cruises, especially as youth staff, we double the size of kids. It sounds like a lower case T trauma. Well, this is the thing is I think there's a lot of stuff in hindsight where like, you know, just getting ready for this

episode I was looking back on I was like, Oh, I forgot about that because it was tucked away somewhere far. Well, and also like when your nervous system is bombarded with too much shit to even process. And this is what classic cults do too. They just overwhelm your system. They colonize all of your time with tasks, chaos, rituals that don't make sense and then you don't even have time to question. You're just running on fumes to the point where like, it's not that you block out the memories of like every individual exploitative event. It's that you weren't able to even catalog the memory in the first place because of the onslaught. And that's a way that

cults retain their followers a lot of the time. It's just like you don't have a second to fucking process. No, you really don't. Like one of the craziest things about it is like you're not allowed to have a day off. It's against the rules. So for example, we would get in trouble if we didn't clock minimum 60 hours per week. And like, I'm not talking in trouble for my boss. I'm talking like a shore side would be like, Hey, we noticed they only clocked 58 hours. You better get on that. What's shore side? Like corporation. HQ. God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Shore Side. Shore Side is what they were called. Holy fuck. Okay. So for me, when I think of the cult of a cruise ship, that isolation, that floating compound element instantly springs to mind.

You're a living and breathing example of someone who could not leave, whose God was named Shore sign. Okay. So let's talk about the entertainment aspect. The very, very first cruise ship back over a hundred years ago, it had a library, a gymnasium and a dark room for the development of film by amateur photographers, but to compete with expanding markets over time, cruise liners have added more and more amenities. Some of the most intense that I've come across include skydiving and escape rooms. Famously, most cruises offer extensive live entertainment, which creates a whole little culture of its own.

What would you say makes the entertainment industry on cruises unique from the on land entertainment industry and what about it is cult here? I think there's like a lot of similarities in terms of performers being put on a pedestal above everyone else. But I think one of the differences is along this idea of just making passengers feel really special. The performers are encouraged to socialize with the passengers on their off time. So like, as part of your job, you are supposed to go and have drinks with the passengers and be like, Oh, I'm just casually here. So then like you can talk to me and feel like closer in on the performance.

It is very much like I have power over you, but I'm one of you. I'm like relatively aspirational. And they know it. They know that the passengers want to know what's going on. So they like, do it, feed into it, talk to them, chat them up. Another thing too, in terms of entertainment, you're only allowed to be sick so many times. And so one of the ways that they allow performers to continue performing is you pre-record, they're called Larry tracks and they're called Larry tracks in case you get laryngitis and you basically perform the whole show and you are lip syncing to yourself.

To Larry. To Larry. To Larry. But yeah, so like if you're having an off day, you can opt in to do your Larrys instead, but you can only do so many Larry's because if you're doing too many Larry's, then it will be flagged and you might get written up. And SureSide will yell at you.

Yes, SureSide, because they're the ones who are getting the report. I get it now. You're there. You're here with us. Okay, okay, okay. So what happens if SureSide is like, this person has one too many Larry's and it's not flirting enough with the gold guard. So well, one is you're never guaranteed a contract and two, there are certain contracts that are better. There's certain

cruise ships that are better. And so your performance dictates whether or not you get another contract and where you get put. So if you're not doing so hot, this contract, you're not getting a good choice next time. You're probably gonna be put on a bad route, maybe with some bad shows. And this is across the board on all accounts. For example, shorter cruises suck ass

because the turnaround time is so much quicker. So if I work on a three to four day cruise, you're doing disembark and embarkation closer together and those are really hard days. And also because it's, this is horrible to say, but a shorter cruise means it's cheaper and cheaper cruises, people tend to be meaner. Yeah, well, we hate to say it,

but I mean, it's like, it's the way that I've's the way that I've heard that flight attendants prefer to work first class. I've heard that. I'm recalling, I once, I must've been high. I once upon consuming an edible, watched a long YouTube video just about how to park a cruise ship in the dock. Because it's like a whole three day planning period to figure out how to fit that city on water into that little tiny area.

Like the Earth, planet Earth was not built to accommodate a vessel that large. So like parking it alone, it's just insane, is I guess the point. Or no, the point is cruise ships like innovation exist. Ha ha ha ha ha. ["Sleeping Beauty"] Thank you so much to our sponsor, Helix Sleep, makers of the mattress that has truly changed my life.

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hierarchies within it. Top of the top, of course, is, well, it sounds like it's shoreside, but top of the top on the cruise itself is the captain. And then you have the staff who can be divided into like officers who handle the business and the bode things and the staff who manage hospitality and the crew, AKA support staff. And that officer status is codified on a stripe system. So captains and chief engineers have four stripes, whereas various other positions might have three. And I also learned from so many of the emails that we received from other listeners that crew uniforms themselves can create a power imbalance that is often abused, that can create an atmosphere of racial microaggressions and sexual harassment.

Many of the emails we received from other listeners mentioned that the general culture of cruising is a breeding ground for less than welcoming behavior toward passengers and employees of color. So my question for you is, from your experience, what ways are employees made to feel a culty power imbalance while working in the cruise industry? Yeah, so you really hit on something that I always find was super duper culty, which is the difference between crew, staff, and officers.

So this isn't just about where you work, it's also about where you sleep, and it's also about where you're allowed to go on the boat. Crew is your waiters, your waitresses, your bar staff, housekeeping and everything. So on Carnival, they live below deck and they're going to be in a room which is two people and then they're going to share a bathroom with another room of two people. They have to do all their own laundry. They have to clean everything. It used to be a thing where they were able to only eat in the crew dining hall, but on

my last ship that I was on, the crew dining hall and the staff dining hall were considered on equal ground. But prior to that, crew could only eat in crew and staff were allowed to eat in staff or crew. So staff are guest relations, guest services, shore excursions, casino, youth staff, entertainment, et cetera. So we are one, we are allowed and encouraged to be in guest areas.

As a crew member, you're not allowed to go in a guest area if you're not in uniform and if you're not working. Well, so if you're off, you can't be seen, literally. You have to get special permission. If you wanna eat in the dining hall, that would be given if it was like your birthday or your anniversary. And then like as a staff member,

I was allowed to go wherever I wanted. As long as I had my name tag on, like that was completely fine. And so the difference in rooms is I would share a room, but I had my own cabin steward who cleaned my room every day and I got free laundry of my staff uniforms. It's kind of crazy that like I'm working with someone who is cleaning my room. Like it's culty. What I'm hearing is the dehumanization and stratification that granted might exist in a more subtle way in other industries here

is represented so blatantly by the spaces that you're allowed to go in, what you're allowed to wear, where you're allowed to eat. What does that do psychologically to people? The other crazy thing is you could tell what country someone was from based of what department they worked in because ShoreSide only recruits in certain countries for certain departments. And so if you want to elevate your status and become a staff, you would have to work at least two contracts in your designated. So for example, housekeeping, Indonesia, Philippines, that's it. If you were to work in restaurants, you're probably going to be Russian, Ukrainian from Belarus.

If you were working as a bartender, you tended to be from the Caribbean islands. And the only place that Americans, Canadians, Australians, people from England, Ireland, Scotland work was in entertainment. They wouldn't work anywhere else because no other department paid enough. So like housekeeping would make 500 American a month and they were working 12, 14 hour days, seven days a week. What the fuck? So that was the thing is like as a youth staff, like I was in a highly coveted position because most of the people that I worked with, they had to do a couple of contracts somewhere else. But as a Canadian, I wouldn't be hired to work in any other department.

That is so fucking bananas. That is so fucking bananas. Yeah. Even the spa, the spa was mostly South Africans. So that was the thing is if you saw anyone in entertainment, literally, it was a game where I'm like, I actually know what you did before you came to this position. And I personally was always really grossed out about it. I'm like, I don't like that you only go to that one country for that one position. I don't think we should be doing that, guys. Really exploitative and creepy, at best. I want to continue talking about these darker

sides of the industry, including this labor exploitation that you're describing. So I learned from this very interesting piece published in the Saturday Evening Post called The Dark Side of the Cruise Ship Industry, that cruise lines, while often based in the US, will register ships in other countries with what are called open registries, meaning that cruise lines aren't beholden to American minimum wage standards or any other labor standards for that matter. This article said, quote, cruise lines gain another enormous advantage by registering as a foreign corporation. The Internal Revenue Code exempts any income from airlines or ships from taxation as long

as the foreign nation gives the same benefit. And legislation has tried to combat this over the years, but because the cruise industry is so profitable, it's been very difficult. What do you think is the most unethically culty part of cruises as a business? Oh, truly, I think it's insane that you're expected to work seven days a week for nine months on end. And I was working short contracts too. So like nine months was the minimum that housekeeping

would have to do. And that was always something where I'm like, man, could you imagine? I totally forget that I did that for like eight months. I worked seven days a week for eight months. It sounds like unheard of to me. It's like all of a sudden you're like on the water and like all bets are off and you don't even have to treat people like human beings. Like not a single day off. That doesn't make sense. No and also too the minute that you get onboarded they take away your passport and it's locked up and you don't see it until the day that you disembark. Why?

Because they're afraid that you're using the cruise ship to legally immigrant somewhere. So what you would get is you would be given your cruise ID and your cruise ID is considered a legal document. So like if I go on land, all I have is this. And so I could use it at a bar if like I needed to be IDed or something like it works. But they take away your passport. And then to that end, there's something called port manning.

There's a rule that at any given time, there has to be X amount of crew on a cruise ship in case of an emergency. So in order to meet those minimum requirements set out by the Coast Guard, each department has a certain amount of positions. And to make sure that you're filling it, you have those people on port manning,

which is where they take away your ID. So now you literally have nothing and they lock it up so that you cannot get off the boat in case of an emergency. It's as culty as it gets. Yeah. Okay. I want to just transition into talking about some general culty cruise culture X. This is another thing that's always given me the creeps a little bit about cruise culture

from a passenger standpoint is that there's often such little emphasis on engaging with the places or learning about the places that are visited beyond these sort of sterilized ports. So it's the same reason why resorts sometimes give me the heebie-jeebies because you're not truly engaging with the culture that you're patronizing in a respectful way. It's also said that these cruise ships are sort of not really travel experiences, but rather microcosms of the same sort of upper middle class life that passengers are living at home anyways. And another thing that's more subtly culty is that on cruise ships, they encourage

a turn off your mind vacation style, which like what is cultier than encouraging your flock to turn off their mind? There was one cruise where we would go to Cosmo first and then we would go to Progresso, which is also in Mexico. And like, because Progresso wasn't as flashy, most people wouldn't even get off the boat, which I think just kind of goes to show that they wanted to be indoctrinated into like this flashy kind of cruise resort style. And when it was a bit, I don't know, less Las Vegas, less flashy, they were like, I'm good. Which brings me to the sort of Dionysian pleasure cult side of this. Sociologist Ross Klein

said that the cruise industry bases its marketing on the sexual possibilities available on cruises, exemplified in names like the Allure of the Seas, Carnival ecstasy, island escape, carnival fantasy, et cetera. And on the more adult catered cruises, there is this hedonistic party culture that can encourage people to shed their normal standards. Something I've found remarkable just anecdotally from hearing about people's cruise experiences is that they often lure you into purchasing these all-you-can-drink alcohol packages where you're basically drunk and compromised the whole time in an attempt to get your money's worth. Is that something you've encountered?

Yeah, 100%. I have definitely seen passengers be like, this is so expensive. I've had to drink so much. And I'm like, that doesn't mean all you can drink. It's all you want to drink. So I definitely would agree with that in terms of like passengers. And honestly, I think it goes also for like the crew. Tell me. Okay, first of all, I think your body your choice. I also am totally fine with polyamory, if that is an agreement between you and your partner. However, the amount of people that you knew had a husband, that you knew had a wife, I actually was dating a guy that everyone knew was married except for me. Stop it.

Yeah. And so I found out and I was like, you're literally married. And he's like, well, everyone else knew. And I was like, no, I'm okay. Thank you though. I cannot get over this culture of like no land, no rules. And that's what it was. It was the kind of thing where I worked with someone who for 17 years, she was someone's mistress, because he would go on land and be with his wife and then they would go on cruises and they would be together. Stop it.

It just definitely, there was this kind of, yeah, no land, no rules, very hedonistic, like what happens at sea stays at sea. I mean, and again, with consent and with a certain amount of controlled chaos, fine. But I hinted at the idea earlier in this episode that things can and have gotten really bad in terms of cruise ship culture and all these culty conditions. And I want to sort of just to set the stakes, summarize a worst case scenario. So I don't know if you've heard of this, but in 2002 there was a pretty notorious cruise ship related death, the death of Diane Brimble.

Have you heard of this person? No, I've heard of some sad deaths on cruises, but I haven't heard of that one. So in 2002, Diane Brimble died on a P&O cruise ship. It was the first night of her trip after these men poisoned her with a date rape drug. She died from the effects of this drug under these super humiliating circumstances. I mean, it was really awful. This woman was a mother and described by those who knew her as prudish.

The tragedy was just very shocking and awful. The men who did this were charged with manslaughter, though there was never any manslaughter conviction. But not only that, her family had to wait four years to get her fare refunded, which just reflects the sort of consumerist nightmare that the bureaucratic hellscape that the cruise industry can so often create.

And the laws are actually really complex because again, ships are often between countries. So this like no land, no rules thing, it's kind of real. Because if someone dies on board and they're in the fucking Bermuda triangle, like who's meant to hold them accountable for that? You know, what are the cruise ship deaths that you've heard of? It's actually super sad, but there was one, I think it was rural Caribbean when I was, my last cruise ship was out of San Juan

and it was a two year old. Oh Jesus. Fell out of a window when grandpa wasn't watching. Oh God. I feel like I've heard those stories too. What happens? Like how do the cruise lines respond? If there is a death on board, like every cruise has a morgue and every cruise also has a break. So you can put someone in jail on this cruise ship and you could put someone up in a morgue and every cruise also has a break. So you can put someone in jail on this cruise ship and you could put someone up in a morgue. I say that so casually. Wow.

Well, it was your life. Yeah. So before we play a little game, I feel as though we have to talk about the nine month cruise. So for those unawares, Royal Caribbean has taken the floating cold compound concept to the next level. There is a nine month cruise. It's called the Royal Caribbean Ultimate World Cruise. It's gotten kind of TikTok famous. It set sail December 10th of 2023.

It will be at sea for 274 nights and is expected to return to Miami on September 10th of this year. And ticket prices range from between $53,999 to over $117,000 per person. There's already, of course, been a COVID outbreak and a host of other issues. The first scheduled port was canceled. There's been flooding on deck. Here's my favorite. Some passengers have started a TikTok reality show called the ultimate real world cruise.

One of these TikTokers said, are people at dinner are like family already? So people are really bonding. Do you think the nine month cruise will emerge as a cult of its own? When I heard of it, I'm like, yeah, it makes sense because people can work from home now. Why don't you just work on a cruise, especially with the housing market the way it is?

But the thing is, this has kind of been going on for years in terms of, I don't know the exact company, but I've heard tell of people who instead of retiring actually just live on cruise ships because it's cheaper than going to a retirement home. That whole attitude toward cruising just reflects how unsustainable American life is in general. It's like when a system is broken, you join a cult, and here is the cruise industry ready to be that cult. Yeah, so I don't know. Unfortunately, I'm like, yeah, I get it.

Literally, I really do get wanting to live on a cruise ship. I did it for two years. Okay. Now we're going to play a little game. It's called Culti or just Cringe, Cruise Ship Edition. The premise is the following. I'm going to read you a sequence of anecdotes that other listeners emailed in about their experiences on a cruise, whether they stayed on one or were working on one.

And there's no way to lose this game, but your task is to determine if these moments are culty or just cringe. Okay. or just cringe. Okay, a listener named Sarah, hello, said that she went on a social impact cruise with Carnival in 2015. She says that when the ship would make stops, quote, instead of drinking margaritas on the beach, you would go install a concrete floor in someone's home in the Dominican Republic or replant trees in a deforested area, or work in a women's cooperative. Which to me just sounds very like Peace Corps,

Cult of Mormon mission trips, Cult of Voluntourism, combined with the Cult of Cruising. Do you think this is culty or just cringe? It's culty, but unfortunately I totally did one of those things for work. Like we got off and we gave Christmas presents to like a school and there were options for guests on certain ports to do outreach work instead of doing a shore excursion. So I'm like, that makes sense. It's very voluntourism, which is culty. Oh my God, it's culty.

It's like this cruise will save you and this cruise is saving the world. Yes, exactly. Okay, number two, culty or just cringe. Several listeners noted that passengers on cruise ships all wear matching t-shirts, a la Disneyland, all the time for any reason. Shirt sayings might include, oh, shit, it's a family

trip. That's one shirt slogan that was literally sent in by a listener and Royal Caribbean crew number named Jonathan. So thank you very much. Those t-shirts, are they culty or just cringe? I just think they're cringe. I think they're kind of fun. Also, it's really useful. We've had families do that and I'd be like, man, I know who your mom is. I'm going to go find her. I'm actually here for it. It's a tactic we use to not lose children and if you don't want to lose your husband, I respect that. I think it's just cringe as well. Number three, a listener named Emily said that at her semester at sea, which is like study abroad, basically on a cruise,

she had to deal with dock time. If you were late getting back to the ship by the required time, you would have to spend X number of hours on the ship at the next port, one hour of dock time for every 15 minutes late. She said, one night I had trouble finding the ship access. I ended up at the industrial port instead of the passenger port and had six hours of dock time in the next spot. Dock time. Culty or just cringe? Culty, but also I'm so glad they waited for her because they told us regularly they would not wait for us or passengers. They'd just leave. is they told us regularly, they would not wait for us or passengers, they just leave. The threats.

Okay, this is summarizing like a general point that I'm getting, which is like, the system of rewards and punishments is very, very culty within cruises. Okay, next one, culty or just cringe. Listener and cruise ship entertainer, Genie, said you date guys you would never in real life, partially because they are also shipies

and you have so much in common slash lots of mutual understanding that's very specific to ship life. You feel like your non-ship friends just don't get you. How you live, what you go through, many shipies marry each other, that's how I met my husband. Cultie or just cringe?

No, it's culty. And this is kind of the exit cost of leaving. If you are in a relationship with someone who's on a cruise ship, especially if you're from different countries, it's really difficult for some people to get visas. So you stay on cruise ships to stay with your partner. I was going to say that's a great point in terms of exit costs because I was like, well, you get off the ship, you move on with your partner. I was gonna say that's a great point in terms of exit costs because I was like, well, you get off the ship, you move on with your life, but like,

if your whole life has been constructed around this culture, now you're kind of in for life. Yeah. Okay, last one, culty or just cringe. Listener Jen says of some of the fellow passengers on a cruise out of England she went on, quote, "'These people take two to three cruises a year year to avoid going home to the high cost of oil and utilities in Britain. The wonderful staff become like nurses aides who know the phone numbers of the customer's children,

especially the ones that get too drunk and often have mishaps. Culty or just cringe, staying on this ship and building a whole life to avoid the challenges of real life. It's kind of both. It is culty, but also life is expensive. So it's kind of giving like rich sugar baby. For sure. For sure. For sure. Oh my God, Emi, thank you so much for doing this interview and for participating in Culti or Just Cringe. Now we have arrived at our culti verdict where I ask the ultimate question. Out of our three cult categories, a live your life, a watch your back, and a get the fuck

out, which one do you think the cult of cruises falls into? Honestly, I really think it's a watch your back. I loved working on the cruises and I love that I don't work on them anymore. And I am thankful for those two years. Like it was a really sick lifestyle. But also the one thing I will tell people is you have to be a very specific person and you need to be okay that you are that kind of a person. And if you're not that kind of person, get the fuck out.

Fair, fair, I love that. You're like, I am not a victim, but I will not be going back. Yeah, exactly, simple. Yeah, I agree. It's definitely a watch your back. It's like so not for me. The whole thing I find infinitely cringe, but that doesn't mean it's

a get the fuck out just because I feel judgy about it. I think it's, I agree. I think it is a watch your back. It's like for the passengers almost a live your life level, you know? Honestly, like if you can afford it, I would say, yeah, it's pretty live your life. The only thing is I'm like, be aware that that you know, this is curated towards you as much as you think your housekeeper loves you. They also just want the tip. Yeah, okay. Nevermind. I actually I retract and I replace my answer. I actually think that the whole damn thing is a watcher about holy shit. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new Cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty.

But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult is hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of the PodCabin. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. This episode was made with production help from Katie Epperson. Our intern is Reese Oliver. Thank you as well to our partner, All Things Comedy.

And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and the forthcoming, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I would really appreciate it if you leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts.

Come and join me for the cultiest event of the season. Oh, hey, it sounds like a cult host Amanda here to invite you this April to New York, Boston, and Philly where I'm putting on a culty variety show that you are not gonna wanna miss. This show, Cult Gathering Extravaganza, features guest appearances from the cult-followed podcasters behind Normal Gossip, Petty Crimes, Love Letters, and Strange Customs, plus drag burlesque performances, a musical guest, exclusive merch, a meet and greet, and more. And this just in, for the New York event, use the code cultmagic, no spaces,

at checkout for 10% off your ticket. A copy of my new book is also included in the price. It's going to be a hootenanny. Recruit your friends. Ticket links can be found at the link in our Instagram bio at Sounds Like a CultPod or on our website, soundslikeacult.com.