Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Family Vloggers

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Catch Amanda back on tour this summer in Chicago, Minneapolis, and Seattle!! Friday, July 12: The Big Magical Cult Show at Park West in Chicago, IL (buy tickets here!) Saturday, July 13: The Big Magical Cult Show at Cedar Cultural Center in Minneapolis, MN (buy tickets here!) July 29: The Age of Magical Overthinking book talk at Elliott Bay Book Company in Seattle, WA (free!) Imagine you’re a little kid and your parents are actually your bosses. Now imagine that, as your professional superiors, your parents' job is to engineer and exploit every single precious moment of your childhood for millions of people on the internet to behold, all in exchange for clicks, comments, and ad dollars. Sometimes they prank you, embarrass you, and/or produce a whole ‘nother sibling purely as a career move. Now imagine if your parents manage to figure out at some point that this dynamic is power abusive and manipulative, and they decide to stop sharing your face with the world, scads of strangers who’ve gotten parasocially attached to you since before you were born start flipping the f*** out. Such is the uncanny experience of a kid born into the cult of family vloggers, this week’s culty a$$ subject, featuring journalist Fortesa Latifi, who is currently writing a book about parenthood and content creation.  Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @amanda_montell To order Amanda's new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality, click here :) To subscribe to her new Magical Overthinkers podcast click here! Thank you to our sponsors, who make this show possible: Visit BetterHelp.com/CULT today to get 10% off your first month. Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/cult.  Go to the App Store or Google Play store and download the FREE Ibotta app to start earning cash back and use code CULT. Go to stopscooping.com/SLAC and enter promocode SLAC to save an EXTRA $50 on any Litter-Robot bundle.  

They say that robots are going to take over the world, and when it comes to the litter robot, I am all for that. As a special offer to listeners of the show, go to stop scooping.com slash SLAC and enter promo code SLAC to save an extra $50 on any litter robot bundle. That's an extra $50 off any litter robot bundle at stop scooping.com slash SLAC and enter promo code S L A C at checkout. Stop scooping.com slash S L A C and enter promo code S L A C. Ooh, I love getting cash back with Ibotta. Right now, Ibotta is offering our listeners $5 just for trying Ibotta by using the code cult when you register.

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fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. There's been a few things that Cole has said specifically about abortion that have really rubbed people the wrong way. Like at one point he tweeted that if his stepdaughter ever was pregnant as a result of non-consensual sex, that he would want her to have the baby. It's so insidious hearing statements like that from someone for whom children are a money source, because it's clearly now a part of his values to have children make content about them, spread ideological messages through them,

and rake in millions of dollars along the way. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern-day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of the books Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and The Age of Magical Overthinking. Speaking of The Age of Magical Overthinking, I am on book tour right now. And in July, I'm gonna be in Chicago on July 12th and Minneapolis on July 13th. I'm throwing this over the top variety show

called the Big Magical Cult Show involving drag for less and a PowerPoint presentation on parasocial relationships, audience participation, custom drinks. It is so much fun. The Seattle event is gonna be at Elliott Bay Book Company and will be absolutely lovely as well and free. Info tickets and RSVP information is in the link in our show notes or at amandamontel.com slash events.

So if you're in Chicago, Minneapolis or Seattle, please check that out. Every week on this show, you're going to hear about a different fanatical fringe group from modern day society, from K-pop to Catholic school. Today, we're finally talking about the cult of family vloggers. To try and answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which cult category does it fall into? A live-your-life? A watch your back? Or a get-the-fuck-out?

After all, in 2024, cultishness falls along a spectrum. It's subjective. Cults aren't just compounds in the woods anymore. They could form on your YouTube homepage, in your TikTok algorithm. Ooh, not to frighten you. But culty groups are indeed everywhere these days. I don't think a single one of us can avoid them, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

The question is not, am I in a cult? The question is, is this cult that I'm a part of a fairly harmless one, like those people who are just really obsessed with Trader Joe's? Spoiler alert for our Cult of Trader Joe's episode. Or is this cult something more sinister than that, even if it doesn't look like it? Here's what I'll say. Historically, cults have always formed around really fraught spaces like religion and politics and wellness.

These spaces where people are trying to accomplish something transcendent. They desperately want to do life perfectly, but they don't have the answers until some charismatic leader swoops in and is like, I do, follow me. I know how to achieve happiness and flawless health or aspirational parenting. I'm perfect.

In terms of the kind of modern day cults that we cover on this show, parenting is indeed one of those spaces that's ripe for exploitation and ritual and dogmatism, especially when combined with social media. The Cult of Momfluencers is an episode that we've already done. It's one of our most listened to episodes.

I personally love that episode featuring author Sarah Peterson. She wrote a book called Momfluenced. But relatedly, the Cult of Family vloggers on YouTube, which has been a huge content category on there for well over a decade, but now also TikTok, is also highly requested. When I talk about family vloggers,

I'm referring to parents who build a cult following online by making videos of their family's alleged day-to-day lives, including and especially footage of their kids. Some of these families truly become ultra famous. They acquire millions of adoring parasocial disciples by low-key exploiting their children for clicks and bad dollars. This content is riveting though, like it feels very cozy to watch like you're a part of their family, Like these are your parents and your siblings. Even I used to subscribe to a couple

of family vlogger channels back in the day when I was in my early 20s. I just moved to LA, I was very lonely. It was the, as our Cult of AI special guest, Kate Lindsay said, the fuck around era of the internet. Now we're in find out. And indeed we found out that family vloggers can be a culty culty thing.

Popular names in the family vlogging space have included the Lebrant fam, Sam and Nia, the Bratales, the Shaytards. If you don't recognize any of these names, you're probably like, LOL Amanda, stop making these funny noises. But I swear as niche as it is, the family vlogger space is a culty cash cow and also laden with controversies,

which you're going to hear all about in our interview. We touched on this cult a tiny bit in our update to the momfluencers episode where I briefly summarized the terrifying case of YouTube mommy child abuser Ruby Frankie. Go back and give that a listen after this one. But to really get into the nitty-gritty of this cold, we're gonna need a special expert guest host. I am so excited to welcome Fortessa Latifi, a journalist who's written for the likes of New York Times. Have you heard of her? The Washington Post, Teen Vogue, InStyle, and Bitch Media. Hello. Among other publications, one of Fortessa's beats is reporting on family vloggers. So I truly can't think of a better guest host for this week. Welcome, Fortessa.

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. Me too. This has been a super highly requested topic. So we're finally getting into it. Could you introduce yourself and your work to our listeners and describe how you developed an interest in writing about family bloggers? So I'm Fortessa. I'm a reporter who is obsessed with family bloggers and the reality of what it's like to be a kid influencer. And I've thought about this question a lot, like why this has become my pet topic. And I honestly think it's because when I was a teenager, like 16 and pregnant and teen mom were a really big deal.

Do you remember? Do I remember? I loved those shows. Oh my gosh. I felt like I was looking in a fun house mirror, a jacked up crystal ball when I was watching those shows, no doubt. Yeah. And it was terrifying. And the crazy thing about those shows is that some of them are still on air. Like Teen Mom and Teen Mom 2 are still on air. And some of these kids are like turning 14 and have been on TV since before they were born. Okay, friends. Friends could never. Longest running sitcom. Could never. It's crazy. Imagine being able to look back at your whole life like that. But it's not just these reality TV show kids anymore. It's these. Like imagine being able to look back at your whole life like that. But it's not just these reality TV show kids anymore. It's these influencer kids too.

So I think a lot of our millennial listeners grew up watching those reality shows and then family vloggers was a content category that was introduced a little bit later, depending on our age, whether we were in our teens or early twenties. I definitely consumed some family vlogger content back in the day. Could you describe the typical content of a family vlogger and how it's changed over the past 10 years or so? Yeah, totally. I think it's fascinating because we've seen this shift both in influencers in general and in family vloggers where it's from this kind of like perfect family where the photo shoots are like everyone is perfectly coordinated and the mom especially is kind of seen as this

like wonder woman who like makes it all work and now we're seeing this shift towards content that's supposed to be more like real and authentic and relatable although like there's a question of how much of influence or content is actually authentic i mean we have to think about that but like a typical family vlogger usually has like a shtick, right? So it might be that they like have a bunch of kids or that they have only daughters. It's such a funny bit to have like so many children. It's so funny to just keep having children. I mean, the one family that I keep track of and just announced their like fifth pregnancy in as many years and it's just like, girl,

are you okay? Oh my god. It's like people who upload 10 TikToks a day, but in human form. It's terrifying. It's constant content. They're uploading one human a year for their content. Simply cannot imagine, couldn't be me, but a lot of them have this like shtick, right? They're traveling the world or they live in a van or whatever. And so they do the content that's like the behind the scenes of family life.

So a typical day would be like, make breakfast with me for my four kids. Or there's this kind of click baby stuff on YouTube. Like you'll never believe what happened at my daughter's dance class or just like trends that are going through Tik Tok. I'll do like the family versions or whatever. There's a wide variety. Yeah. What are some trends in family vloggers right now? I mean, we're recording this so many months before it's going to be released that the whole world will have probably changed. But like right now at this moment in time, what would you say is a particularly ridiculous

family vlogger trend that you've clocked? I mean, what is not a ridiculous family vlogger trend. But like right now, there's this focus on like, get my kids lunch ready with me. And it's like so banal. It's not interesting really at all. But people are so fascinated in it. And then it feeds into like the mommy wars of like, you're feeding them snacks or like da da da da da, there's not enough fresh fruit on this plate. And it's like, I don't know, it's kind of like range bait, you know? Totally. I mean, parenting in general is one of these fraught spaces that has produced conflict

because we're in such a competitive culture and that really trickles into parenting. It's something that is always super jarring to me when I travel outside of the US to notice how like classic cult compound style, everybody's kind of like keeping track of everybody's kids. And like, they're not doing that comparison thing where it's like, oh, my kid is better behaved and better fed and more stylishly dressed than your kid. It's like, we're all at the beach and everybody's just kind of parenting everyone.

It takes a fucking village. It does. And I think that's totally normal. Like in other countries, my family is Albanian from Kosovo. And I remember like being a kid and my brother and cousins teasing me while we were just like out in the world. And this other dad, not in our family came up and like discipline them and was like, Hey, stop it. Leave her alone. And we were all just like, yeah, that's totally normal. But I feel like in America, if someone else disciplines your

kid, it would be like, oh my God, call the police. Literally. Yes. And I really credit that to like the cultish sense of competition and Protestant capitalism, American dream brainwashing that exists here. How do family vloggers make money? Can you name some of the most successful family vloggers and kind of estimate how much they're raking in?

Yeah. It's hard because it's a multi-billion dollar industry with a B. Yeah, I know. No one listening can see the eye cringe. I'm actually seeing my eye right now and I can't believe it can be that. But I'm wincing. I'm wincing. Yeah, so sorry. It's a multi-bazillion dollar industry.

Yes, it is. But there's not a lot of pay transparency. And I think that's kind of by design because it's hard to feel like you're relating to a family that's making $100,000 off of a brand deal when that's your entire salary. But I can say that the most successful family vloggers are making millions, millions a year. And that is both from views, like obviously on YouTube and TikTok, you get paid for how many views you bring in and then pay out, yeah, from those social companies and then endorsement and brand deals. So they're making a ton of money.

It's super lucrative. Like you'll notice that none of the family vloggers that I have followed do their parents have full-time jobs. Two questions. First, could you name some of these most cult-followed family vloggers as of right now in the family blogger space? The family that comes to mind the most readily is the Lebrant family. So it's actually also funny how many of these families have at least connections to teenage pregnancy. So like Savannah is the mom of the Lebrant family and she had her first daughter when she was 19

and they started out like making content like the two of them. And then Savannah got married to this guy Cole and now they have a bunch of kids. I think they're pregnant with their fourth kid together and fifth, including her daughter. And I don't know, it's interesting that like teen bloggers and teen families really take off.

Like we are obviously just fascinated by that, but the brands have like tens of millions of followers between the oldest daughter, Everly, who's like around 11, and then Savannah and Cole, I mean, between YouTube and TikTok and Instagram. I can't imagine how much money they're making. I've watched their content too, because also in the early days of my YouTube consumption, I would watch vegan content, which of course was a gateway to like now who I would think of as like kind of anti-vax, island, tradwife kind of mothers and their kids. But when that was my algorithm,

I came across the Lebrant family because they're evangelical now. They are extremely religious. I don't know their exact denomination. I think probably purposefully they don't say that, but they're like heavy on Jesus stuff. I mean, their last daughter is named Sunday. Are you like a name person? Are you interested in names? I like Freakonomics. There was like a whole thing where you connect like names to your socioeconomic status and your destiny and shit. Yeah, I like names. Okay. Their names just like, that's another thing I could talk about forever is family

vlogger kids names. So their oldest is Everly, right? And then their second one is Posey, like pocketful of Posey. And then their third is a son whose name is Zealand, like New Zealand. And then Sunday is the most recent daughter and now they're pregnant with another boy. So for me, I'm like, oh my God, I cannot wait to see what they name him. Yes. Okay. So actually speaking of that Freakonomics book and documentary where I first became interested in the connection between your social status and names, this is reminding me of a theory, which is that, I think part of the reason why the teen parents become so cult followed is just simply because

we love that rags to riches story. And on social media, it's obviously not a meritocracy, but there aren't as many institutional gatekeepers as there would be in reality television. You know, you have to be blessed by MTV or something like that. Like kind of anyone can start a YouTube channel and then you just have to hope that the God of the algorithm blesses you. But I think as Americans, we cherish this notion, this fantasy that like you could be a teen mom who maybe didn't grow up with the best of circumstances, and then overnight could be, again, hashtag blessed by the internet and find success. And I think the naming element is interesting.

Well, first of all, I think these family vloggers set trends. I think they really do set naming trends. And the sort of like boho, island-y or nature-y tradwife names are so huge. Wilder. Yes. And those like pseudo evangelical spaces, they're like so, so trendy, just like names after deciduous trees. But I think that also connects to like the class element because I remember learning from Freakonomics that the weirdest baby names that you find, like the most non-normative,

are among the richest parents and the poorest parents. Because the richest parents just like, don't have to give a fuck about social norms. They can get away with anything. And that's why you have celebrity baby names like audio science or like bed sheet or whatever the fuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then among folks of low socioeconomic status,

you might find baby names that are really transcendent, names like heaven. It's aspirational. Yes, because they're trying to ascend socioeconomic class. And this is kind of both at the same time, these people are richer than God, but they also have this populist relatable, like, I'm just like you, I came from nothing energy, which is very cult leader ish, no, it is. And I think like the people who are best able to sell that like personal fable are the ones who do the best. So like Savannah Lebrant, for example, she has this whole folklore about her. I was this downtrodden teen mom and my baby daddy was not the best. And look at me

now, I have this beautiful family with this godly man and I got the dream and you can get it too. And one? And like one of the most popular influencers that I see on TikTok right now who's a parenting influencer is a 17 year old with two kids and everyday posts like get ready with me or you start the day with me as a 17 year old mom of a two year old and a three month old or whatever. Dude, I have consumed a lot of this social media content. You can't look away. It's fascinating. Like, how are you living like this?

Like, what is your life like? And of course, we can't not acknowledge that the people whose content takes off are like white, blonde, meeting these traditional beauty standards. And that's why it's truly not a meritocracy, right? Like, the algorithm does not bless just any teen mom. You have to like

meet these weird cult leader-ish like qualifications in order to take off. But I really do think that the Lebrants are evangelical. They do not strike me as Mormon. I feel like Mormons keep it tight, you know? They're like a little more angelic, whereas evangelicals are like, they're flashier. Yeah. They also just moved to like Tennessee. They used to live in Southern California and they were like, this is like Heathenville. We have to go to Tennessee.

Oh, but Orange County is so evangelical. That's where all the MLM Christians live. I feel like maybe they should have chilled there, but who knows how Tennessee is going. Well, we'll just have to subscribe and like. Yeah. It's terrible And now a quick word from our cult followed sponsors

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It does not smell. It is so quiet. Quieter than their old model that I used to have. It's basically like my cats don't have digestive systems. I'm telling you, everybody says that the robots are taking over the world. And when it comes to the litter box, I am all for that. As a special offer to listeners of the show, go to stop scooping.com slash SLAC and enter promo code SLAC to save an extra $50 on any litter robot bundle. That's an extra $50 off any little robot bundleRobot bundle at stop-scooping.com

slash S-L-A-C and enter promo code S-L-A-C at checkout. Stop-scooping.com slash S-L-A-C and enter promo code S-L-A-C. Spring has been sprung for quite a while now, which means out with the old and in with the new, but don't splurge on anything new without getting cash back in return when you use Ibotta. Ibotta is a free app that gives you the most cash back every time you shop on hundreds of items from grocery to beauty supplies to toys. So you can make sure that you're beating inflation no matter what you're purchasing. The average body user earns $256 per year.

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from seeing cults in everyday life for so many years now. But seriously, you've just got to try ABADA. Right now, ABADA is offering our listeners $5 just for trying ABADA by using the code CULT when you register. Just go to the app store or Google Play store and download the free ABADA app to start earning cash back and use code CULT. That's IBO TTA in the Google play or app store and use code cult. Okay, so we're already getting into it, but when I say that family vloggers sound like a cult, what elements instantly come to mind for you?

I think the in-group versus the out-group is really evident. There are these like chosen ones and there are ones who are not chosen. And then there's like the kind of how you have to behave like the code of conduct is very specific and That really fascinates me because I feel like that's very culty to be like, okay If you're inside you have to abide by this but like you're the cult expert. What comes to mind for you? I mean, for me, it's the the parasocial relationship element and the false promise that this is

like a perfect family that you should aspire to or worse, imperfectly perfect, which is like I just I keep thinking of the LuLaRoe couple, the leggings MLM, we did an episode on them. Yes. Yeah, of course you do. I'm from Arizona also. So I know all the MLS. Yes. So I think of them because had they been going direct to cam instead of selling leggings

out of a trunk, that would have been a family vlogger type family. They were blonde and white and suburban and relatable, but still aspirational. Like I just started selling leggings out of my car and look at me now. So I think like that false promise can be really corrosive because it's not just like with an MLM where you have to reach out to your social circle or now that is transcending to be more of like a micro influencer space. But like with family vloggers, they don't have to directly reach out to anyone to recruit them to their cult. They just have to make content. And I can envision a worst case scenario where followers really start to make changes for the worse in their life based on what they're seeing in that content. It's not just entertainment. It's a sort of religious text,

their channel. They're like, oh, well, the Lebrants do this. So I need to do that. And if I don't do that, then I suck. I fail. I have not achieved the grand vision of motherhood or fatherhood or whatever that was put in front of me. So that's what I see. But you were talking about like the us versus them of it all. Like, can you expand on that? What do you mean? There's just like the people who are chosen as the family vloggers, like by whoever, like by the social media companies, they really are like the in group. And you see the smaller vloggers commenting on their stuff and being like, Oh my God, love this kind of trying to like get

in there. And I'm just like, Oh, it's so sad to watch. Once you get to like a certain stratosphere, like if you're like with theBrands, they all kind of act like they're really good friends with each other. They're all in this kind of crew. You can see people trying to get to that crew, but if you haven't come out of your circumstances yet, if you're still in the teen mom phase and you're not married to a man of Jesus phase, you're not going gonna get in. Right, right. What types of families seem to gravitate toward this cult? Like is there a type of person that you think

is most likely to wanna make a family vlogging channel? And what is motivating them? It seems like religious families make up a really large portion of family vloggers. And I wonder if that's just because they tend to have more children, which is like really good for content because there's so much content that comes with each child. As far as motivations, I think there's like two ways to look at it. If you want to look at it pessimistically, it's because money, right? It's a huge,

extremely lucrative industry. Parents quit their full-time jobs and make YouTube and TikTok their careers. And so that's obviously one possible huge motivation. Like who is that not a motivation for, you know? But then I guess there's like the slightly less pessimistic lens, which is that like, we live in a country where the village that it takes to raise a child doesn't exist for a lot of people. And so for many parents, the way they find that community is online. And I do think there's a part to this where they're creating the community that we all should have. So I don't know, it depends which eye you want to look at it through.

No, you're absolutely right. I do think that there is a positive aspect to this quote unquote call. And I don't think that it's fair to say that there's necessarily, even though this was the question that I asked, I don't think that it's fair to say that there's necessarily, you know, even though this was the question that I asked, I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that there's only like one type of person who's attracted to making this kind of content because theory of mind, we all have so many different reasons for doing the things that we do. I will say for the religious families, I do think there's a missionary aspect to it. They kind of want to get God's vision for a family out there to as many eyeballs as possible. But there do seem to be so many different subgroups of family vloggers, some of which could actually be quite beneficial for representation or awareness about different types of families, say families with kids on the autism spectrum or blended families.

Can you talk about some of the more positive subgroups of family vloggers? And then later we'll talk about the sex that are culting in a more sinister way. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to even say like if they're more positive or not. So I did a story for the Washington Post about people who call themselves hashtag medical mamas. So they share their kids chronic illness and disabilities and medical journeys with millions of followers, right?

Which is like, okay, well, the women behind the accounts told me that they were motivated to share online in order to raise awareness about their kids' conditions. And obviously that's very important. And nobody knows what it's like to have a chronically ill or disabled child unless you do. And we live in an ableist society and that's very important. But then there's also that part of me that's like, how strange it must be to have your entire medical history broadcast to millions of people. Yeah, that is very, very disturbing.

Is it worth the awareness is the question. I asked this disabled creator who is, I want to say they're in their 30s. They said no amount of awareness is worth the privacy of a child when it comes to medical. And I think I'm probably very sensitive to this issue because I have been chronically ill for much of my life and I've been through a lot of surgery and a lot of difficulties. And I just think like if my mom had been taking pictures and posting it, even to like her like a couple hundred Facebook followers, like I don't know if I ever would have forgiven her. Yeah, gosh, that is something that I too

could not fathom doing or being subjected to. The consent element is of course, one of the most cultish aspects to this cult as well, because if an adult or even say a teenager, an older teenager wants to share their own medical journey. That's one thing. They're volunteering to do that. In fact, in 2018, I published a piece with Marie Claire that was titled What It's Like to Die Online that was talking about young people, mostly women, who in the face of a life altering or life ending diagnosis, choose

to turn to YouTube to share their health journeys, their medical diagnoses. And that can be a beautiful thing because again, with social media, most people share the highlights and that makes onlookers compare and despair. But if you're someone who's sharing your struggles with cancer or cystic fibrosis, that can give you a sense of agency, like you're taking back some control. It can update others on your health. It can make others feel less alone. It can put their problems into perspective. You can create community with others with the same stuff. But when you're doing it against your child's will, that's a totally different thing.

Nicole Zilberbourg Or not even maybe against their will, but without their informed consent. Because how, how old do you have to be to be able to consent to that? Like, I don't know. Like there was this one woman that I interviewed whose daughter is I think eight or nine. And I said, you know, does she consent to this kind of stuff?

And she said, yeah, well, she knows that the money that we make from it goes to her treatments and to traveling to see doctors and she gets it. And I'm like, I don't know if you can get it. I literally didn't get anything when I was nine. Right. I mean, I still post things online and then I'm like shocked when however many people see it. And I'm 30 years old. Same. And I totally get raising awareness because I do share quite a lot online. And I write about like, I had cancer, I chronic illness, I did ketamine for depression. This is what it was like when I was super high. Like I'm like,

totally I do all of that, but like I do it. Yes. That's like such a crucial part of what makes this seemingly wholesome endeavor more sinister. But beyond these sort of general concerns, could you tell us about any specific culty controversies or crimes that have arisen in the family vlogger community? Yeah, there are so many family vlogger controversies, especially with the Lebrant family. So I've been posting updates about them on TikTok and people are like,

wait, why are there so many controversies with this family? And there are like a few. So one is that they made this like quote documentary that compared abortion to the Holocaust and posted it on YouTube and seemed to be quite proud of that. It was like extremely anti-choice obviously. There's been a few things that Cole has said specifically about abortion that have really rubbed people the wrong way. Like at one point he tweeted that if his stepdaughter ever was pregnant as a result of non-consensual sex that he would want her to have the baby.

It's so insidious hearing statements like that from someone for whom children are a money source. Right. Because it's clearly now a part of his values to have children make content about them, spread ideological messages through them and rake in millions of dollars along the way. You can't monetize your abortion like that. So the cross-contamination of that messaging and his example that he's putting out is like it really sends a shiver down my spine.

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was suggesting in the title that their kid was sick and their kid turned out not to be sick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So speaking of documentaries, again, the LeBrands put out this video on YouTube. And when Posey was their youngest daughter, I think she was a toddler, they made the thumbnail like her in a doctor's office or something. And the title of the video was like, she has cancer in parentheticals documentary. And so obviously like you look at that and you're like, their child has cancer, right? Like that's what you think.

Because that's basically what they said. And then you watch the video and it's like, oh, Posey was sick and we thought that she had something serious, but it turns out that it wasn't that serious. but that made us think about how some kids have cancer and here's a documentary about a kid with cancer. But it was like total clickbait. Again, it's super cringe to do that about yourself. It's unconscionable to do that with your kid. Also, maybe I'm just like foreign, but you should not put things

like that out in the universe. Like knock on wood. Seriously. Oh my God. Every time I've like faked, lol this is going to reflect badly on me, but every time I've like faked sick to get out of something, I have gotten sick. Yeah, because you can't put that out there. Like I'm literally like evil eye, evil eye. Like you can't just say like she has cancer and put a picture of your kid. Like God forbid, like, oh my God. No, I like, I'm with you there. I'm literally like, evil eye, evil eye. You can't just say she has cancer and put a picture of your kid. God forbid. Oh my God. No, I'm with you there. I am, for someone who doesn't

believe in new agey ideas or manifestation or literally anything whatsoever, I am superstitious as hell. Me too. I am so superstitious. Oh my God. I just, it's just like, it makes me nervous. What do you think is like the worst case scenario that could come from the cult of family vloggers? I mean, to me, it's just the total lack of privacy. And I think we'll see what happens with this as these kids get older. I mean, these kids have been online since before they were born, you know, like, free gestation even sometimes. Like there are videos of their parents talking about trying to have them. Then there's the pregnancy reveal and the ultrasound and the Instagram account speaking

from the unborn child's perspective and the gender reveal. Wait, I'm sorry, what? Back up. What? Okay. How have you never seen these? I discovered this about myself literally yesterday because do you know the opinion writer Kate Lindsay? Yes. Yes. Okay. She was our guest on the Cult of AI. Go back and listen to that after this.

But anyways, I love her writing. She has a newsletter called Embedded and she interviewed me for a regular Q&A that they do on Embedded called My Internet, which is about your internet usage and how online you are. I mean, they were asking questions like everything from, do you keep up with internet discourse? And is that important to you? To do you use LinkedIn? Do you use Slack? Do you feel comfortable sharing the name of one of your friend group chats? And what do you talk about? I'm like, I don't have that. It was like, how do you get your recommendations for podcasts and movies? I'm like, I ask a friend. Like in IRL.

Yeah. I miss a lot. I do not scroll. That's the thing. So I don't know what you're talking about. Bless you. And also, I mean, to be fair, I think I'm like so obsessed with this stuff. Like this is my beat. So I like have to like keep up with it. Like, I mean, there are so many people like influencers who will create Instagram accounts for their unborn babies and either name it like baby Latifi or the name that they've already revealed. And they'll post like ultrasound pictures or like bump pictures.

And they'll be like, today I'm 24 weeks from the perspective of the baby and I just developed eyebrows or whatever and mom says that I love oranges and mommy and daddy can't wait to meet me like, XOXO can't wait to see you all. And it's, I know too. I'm doing that I thing again.

I know because it's literally like not only an online footprint, but it's like in your own words. Okay, that is next level. But I will say I do still sometimes watch those videos again with the names like 10 baby names I loved but didn't use. I do love that shit. Me too. I mean, I love memes. Like that's like my other pet interest. And I think that's like, I don't know, it's fine. Like it's not that personal, right? Because it says something about the parents, not really about the kids. But I just cannot literally imagine coming of age or getting older and being like, hey, mom, can I see that Instagram that you wrote for my perspective

when I was in your literal womb? That's unbelievably disturbing. I want to continue talking about some of these culty controversies. So we did speak about the issues of consent and privacy with family vlogging. I know I personally shudder to think about my worst tantrums or sick days or puberty awkwardness publicized online for millions to see my braces color selections alone. Like thank God that is the last time. So you mentioned that some vloggers have quit their full-time jobs to fully monetize

their kids' life moments, making their kid, you know, kind of like the sole source of income in the family, which can create a very cultish dynamic between parent and child. I think I read in a piece of yours that one child of a family vlogger told her dad she didn't want to do YouTube videos anymore. And he told her that they would have to move out of their house and her parents would have

to go back to work leaving no money for quote, nice things. Can you talk about any conversations you've had with children of family vloggers where they've kind of outwardly voiced their misgivings or their traumas? Yeah, I mean, the pressure is enormous. Like I wrote this story for Teen Vogue called Influence Your Parents and the Kids Who Had Their Childhood Made Into Content. And I talked to this young woman who I call Claire

because she is not ready to use her real name yet. She's not yet 18. And even that, like the power dynamics are so intense. Like she lives in her parents' house, right? So what can she come out against it? I don't know. But anyway, she told me what you were saying that she asked her dad not to do YouTube anymore. And he said, Okay, fine. But you know, mom and I are gonna have to go back to work and we're gonna have to get rid of the house and the car and whatever. And so like, is that really like a choice? Like, I don't know that that's

a choice. And she said, I try not to be resentful that I worked my entire childhood, but I am I am resentful. And I said, if you could tell your parents one thing, what would you tell them? And she said, nothing they do now will take back the years of work I had to put in. I mean, that's incredibly tragic and heavy. I know. You don't get it back. You don't get childhood back, you know? And she said that it was more like a company and like more like a boss than it was like a family. Like whenever they're together, like they're talking about the YouTube

channel, like they're figuring out content, like they're kind of like game planning. Like it's not like a like warm fuzzy experience. And it seemed like she really had missed out on that experience of just like having like a- Having a mom and a dad. Yeah, instead of like bosses. Like having a mom and a dad. Yeah, instead of like bosses. That when you put it that way, it really is horrifying and makes me certain that this is a destructive cult. We're not exactly doing. I don't think so.

I don't think we are. Who do you think is the cult leader in this space? Like, is it parents like the LeBrance? Is it the demanding viewers in a sense? Is it YouTube itself? Is it the advertisers? Who's leading this? Who's running the show? Is it YouTube itself? Is it the advertisers? Who's leading this?

Who's running the show? I think there are levels. Like the immediate cult leader to me is the parents because they're the producers of the show and the content. And the level of power that they have over their kids is enormous. And then of course, above that, we have the social media companies

who are deciding which content gets rewarded and the algorithm choosing who gets views and who goes viral, which leads to advertising and brand deals. But I see the viewers as more of cult followers than cult leaders. I agree with you. And that brings me to my next question, which is why psychologically, socially, just your hot take, why do you think these types of vlogs attract such obsessed, loyal, types of vlogs attract such obsessed, loyal, sometimes desperate followings, even if they know that the titles are clickbait. Even if these channels do not align

with their ethics about privacy, like why are these vlogs still so popular? I've thought about this a lot, and I think that we just like are inherently curious about other people. We wanna see how other people live. That's why I was watching the 16 and Pregnant when I was 16,

because I was like, what is it like to be a mom at this age? Like, I just can't understand. And you are curious about the way that other people live. And then above that, we get connected to people. Like, I know it's like overused right now, but we really do form parasocial relationships with these families.

And I think in a way that's natural, because if you're seeing a kid living their lives for years on end and you think they're cute and funny and you've been following them forever, you're going to get attached to them. That is natural, especially when they're putting out so much content. But the obsession and the desperation, I think, is where things really take a turn. Yeah. I do think it says something about a craving or a lacking that we have broadly in our culture at the moment that we're seeking familial connection in places where that familial connection fundamentally cannot be forged.

I did write in my new book in this one chapter about celebrity worship about how our inclination toward parasocial relationships, specifically that of young viewers, is actually connected to our attachment styles with our own parents. Oh my God. I can't wait to get into that. Yeah. Anyway, I'm not going to spoil it. You'll have to read the blog, but there actually is research reflecting that if we do not confront challenges and sort of positive stressors caused by our parents in the real world, we might seek that out in the virtual world.

If we have insecure parent child attachments in real life that might lend itself to celebrity stalking behavior, like it's interesting stuff. That makes sense to me. That really does make sense. And I wonder like if the people who are most obsessed with these families maybe don't have the family that they want in real life. I think probably yes. I mean, this isn't exactly the same thing. But I remember when I used to be in like a really fucked up romantic relationship. I'm fine. I remember when I was still in that

relationship, I became really obsessed with this one couple on YouTube. And it turns out that they weren't even happy either and they broke up. But I remember watching their obviously exaggerated happiness on YouTube and growing a little too attached to it because of my own circumstances. So I can relate to that. Couple more questions. Since we last reported on this general space

for our Cult of Momfluencers episode, it does seem like some legislation is starting to be introduced to at least protect the earnings of kids in these family vlogging situations. Can you talk about that legislation and why you think it's taking so long for it to become a thing?

Yeah, it's a really, really big deal. So we know that obviously the law lags behind the culture in basically every way. But the way it's lagged in this way is particularly egregious, because this is a multibillion dollar decades old industry that we're talking about. But I mean, I could talk about that forever. But the point is, there's only one law as of now that was passed. And it was in Illinois in 2023, which addressed the monetary gains of child influencers

and kids featured in monetized content. And it basically dictates that after a certain threshold is hit, 15% of the earnings are to be set aside in a trust, which is held until the child reaches the age of 18. But that is only one state out of 50. So if you are in any other state than Illinois, you are not protected. And I mean, there is a lot of 50. So if you are in any other state than Illinois, you are not protected. And I mean,

there is a lot of progress. So in January of 2024, six other states introduced legislation that would kind of mirror the Illinois legislation with the monetary protections. And then some states even took it further and included privacy protections with something that's called the right to be forgotten or the right to be deleted. So basically the kids would be able to reach the age of 18 and request the social media companies delete the content that they've been featured in. So that'll be, I think a lot more complicated to pass. And also the internet is forever,

even when you delete things, you know, like if you look up any of these kids, you can see like people put together tribute videos or whatever, like the potty training of so and so. And you know, so even if you delete each of those videos, there's still like these like compilation and fan edits and whatever, but obviously it's a great step, but it's so complicated.

Sorry, it like only just occurred to me in this moment, how fucking weird it is to stan a child who doesn't even know that they're famous. Yeah. The comments are crazy. Like they'll be like, we miss them. Like tell them that they're TikTok aunts love them and blah, blah, blah. Like TikTok aunts. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, so I, you know what? No, it just, okay. At first, this is always my reaction.

Literally every single time we record a damn episode of this podcast, my initial reaction is like shock and horror. And my second reaction is like, we're hungry for something. We're hungry on an existential level for something in our hyper connected yet profoundly isolated society. Totally. Holy shit. Yes. I mean, the loneliness to get obsessed with a child that you don't know. And also it kind of like makes sense in a way because kids are so cute and they're so funny. And like, if you're seeing this content over and over, like you are going to feel like you

like have some connection to them, but that's the lie of the internet. You have no connection to them. They don't know that you exist. They will never know that you exist. And that is the parasocial trap. Yeah. Last question. Do you think it's possible to ethically continue to watch family channels on YouTube or on TikTok? And what is your advice to viewers who are engaging with this stuff? I guess it depends on where your ethics fall. Like if you are worried about the privacy of these kids and you're worried about the possibility

that in 49 states in this country, they could reach the age of 18 and not have a dollar to show for it, which is something that I've talked to kid influencers about like this is happening. Then maybe you want to pull back from this content. I do think the other interesting thing is that there are parents who are doing family type content, but are not showing their kids anymore. And so that has been an interesting trend to watch because you still kind of get the

like behind the scenes of like a mom who's trying to do it all or whatever, but you don't see the children. So I think maybe that's a loophole. I don't know. I don't know if there's a way to still do this because after the Ruby Frankie story dropped, I did this story for the Washington Post on how people were trying to quit watching family vloggers. But one woman said, it's like an addiction. Like it's a habit and habits are hard to break. And so it's difficult if you've watched these families for this long and you're starting to think twice about it. Like, I don't know. Yeah, I actually did notice that a YouTuber that I watched here and there back in the day, years and years ago, who's kind of like canonical millennial lifestyle influencer who then had kids and pivoted to kind of like family vlogger content, Aspen

Ovard anyone? Oh yes, she's on my radar. She doesn't show her kids anymore. Yeah. I don't know if she's like that Mormon, but she's like Mormon-ish. Yeah. She's like Mormon adjacent, but I mean her name is Aspen, so like, yes. There you have it.

And they live in Utah. But again, compared to the Lebrance, she's like a little classier, which is why I think she's Mormon. Yeah, yeah, that's totally true. Mormons are like, keep it close to the vest. But like, they do. She's interesting because like when she pivoted to like motherhood content, it was like a big deal and people were so into it.

And now she still does like motherhood and like pregnancy content, but she doesn't show her kids and she doesn't even really show often like pictures of them with like emojis over their faces or anything. Like she's just really turned the corner on that. Yeah, I also find it interesting, not like I necessarily like admire her or anything. Like I do think she is like one of these sort of like millennial cringe lifestyle vloggers.

I mean, good on her, like live your life, love that for you. But I do think it's interesting too that she doesn't make any attempt to be hashtag relatable. and she'll talk about that sometimes. She'll be like, I'm sorry that my content isn't relatable, but I'm rich. What do you want me to do? Sorry, you guys made me rich. It's like, do you want me to pretend that I'm still like a girly, you know, who shops at Forever 21? Cause I'm not. Cause I'm not and I won't ever be again, God willing.

Yeah. Now we're going to play a little game. This is a very simple, sounds like a cult game. It's just called What's Cultier? So I'm going to read two scenarios that each have to do with family vloggers and you're just simply going to name which one you think is cultier, there's no way to lose. Okay, let's do it. Which do you think is cultier?

Videos where parents prank their kids or videos with egregious clickbait titles, like suggesting that your kid has cancer? I'm going to go on popular opinion here and go pranking your kids is cultier because it's like an actual reaction from your child. Like with these videos where you're saying like, oh, my kid is sick or whatever. And it's clickbait. Like at least hopefully like the kid, is it being told that they're sick? Like I hate prank videos. Like I hate them. I hate them. And they are the basis of so many things. Like so many family vloggers content is prank videos. Hate, hate, hate, hate a prank.

What's like the worst example you can think of? It literally sounds like I'm just obsessed with the LeBrands, but it's just because they're so everywhere. But they had a video like five years ago or so where they told their oldest daughter Everly that her dog was missing. And she was just like,

yeah, yeah, yeah. And he wasn't. And she was just like sobbing and it was like, ha, gotcha. And it's like, what's the joke? What's the joke? Has anyone told these family vloggers or literally anyone that like the point of a joke is not to make someone cry? Dude, like I literally don't get it. It's not funny. I also just like hate pranks, like, as a person in the world. So if you're like doing them on kids and like recording it, I just think it's really, really fucked up. And bringing in the dog, that's really low. Yeah, it's dark. My cat was hiding

under the bed for one hour the other day. I couldn't find her and I was in tears. Yeah, it's not fair. If my partner pranked me that my cat was missing, divorce. If my husband pranked me at all, I would divorce him. Yep. Next round, what's cold here? Vlog channels involving the whole family or tradwife influencers featuring just the mom? Honestly, I think it might be the tradwives that are cult here because they seem to be pushing such a specific cult.

Yes. Actually, can we use this as an opportunity to touch on the gender dynamics of the family vlogging thing? Because I do feel like so often moms are the ones who are vilified for exploiting their kids, whereas dads get a pass for being in these goofy good sports who are willing to appear in content. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I don't think that's fair because in most of these families, the dads are willing participants. I think it's the way that we look at fatherhood in general in America, where it's like the mother is responsible and the dad gets to be Disneyland dad and it's not fair. It's hard because most of these families like the mom is the kind of canonical character.

So we talk about the mom more but like the dads are there like the dads are going along. They are setting up the ring lights. Yeah, they are. They're at least not objecting, you know. Definitely. Okay, one more. Which is cultier, family vloggers whose primary outlet is YouTube or family vloggers whose primary outlet is TikTok? Oh, that's a really good question. I want to say YouTube because it lends itself so much more to clickbait. Like on TikTok, people will just be like, get ready with me as I wash my face and wake

my kids up. And it's just like banal content. And then on YouTube, you have just be like, get ready with me as I wash my face and wake my kids up. And it's just like banal content. And then on YouTube, you have to have like a hook. Yeah, and YouTube is like, it's more than a TV show. It's like a whole world to get lost in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so now we've arrived at the ultimate question that we ask at the end of every Sounds Like a Cult episode. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which do you think the cult of family vloggers falls into? Oh man, for viewers or for creators? The fact that you're even asking that shows that this is a complicated cult to categorize for both. Yeah.

For creators, I would say it's a get the fuck out. I don't think there's anything that you're trading that's going to be worth it. After talking to influencer kids and what they think of their childhoods, and I mean, they really do feel like their childhoods were robbed from them and that they're never gonna get it back. So that's like a for sure, get the fuck out. I mean, you know, maybe it's not for viewers too. I don't know why we're also into this like, and we are co signing this behavior when we're viewing it. I completely agree. I mean, it's one of those cults that comes up on the show here and there where like, it looks so wholesome.

It looks like such an exaggeration to call family vloggers a cult. And then in the end, it's a get the fuck out. It is. I really think so. There's too much trauma that comes from it. Yeah, it's not fair. I just don't think it's fair to the kids, you know,

like monetarily, privacy wise, it's just, it's not fair. I just don't think it's fair to the kids, you know, like monetarily privacy wise. It's just it's not fair. Thank you so much for joining me to talk about this juicy and really devastating topic. If folks want to keep up with you and your writing, where can they do that? They can find me everywhere on the internet at hi Fortessa H I F O R T E S A. Especially I try to share everything that I do on TikTok because I'm trying to be like- I'm an influencer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm actually gonna figure that out, how to make that lane change. Honestly, I think that more journalists need to get on TikTok because that's where young people are and we need to share like legitimate information with them, but that's a soapbox for another day. But Instagram, Twitter, X, whatever, TikTok, everywhere, at Hi Forteza. Slay, you're doing Lorde's work, being this online. I appreciate you and I bow down to you.

Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. from Katie Epperson and Rhys Oliver. Thank you as well to our partner, All Things Comedy. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I would really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts.