Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Fanfiction

Episode Date: March 17, 2026

Long before publishing executives "discovered" the internet, a very dedicated group of fans had already built their own literary universe complete with sacred terminology, power hierarchies, and enough drama to make the actual source material blush. This week, Reese and Iman sit down with the iconic Christina Lauren duo, Christina Hobbs and Lauren Billings (@christinalauren), to dissect fanfiction's glow-up from AO3 comment sections to genuine big business. We're getting into the culty dialect (slash, ship AU, canon, OTP), the plagiarism scandals, the parasocial power trips, and the Fifty Shades pipeline that proved E.L. James wasn't the only one who could monetize her Twilight feelings. Press play, culties, your kudos await. Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles, @imanharirikia.  Come see Sounds Like A Cult LIVE at The Bell House in New York on April 21st! Tickets at amandamontell.com/events Thank you to our sponsors!  Join the loyalty program for renters at https://joinbilt.com/cult Take 20% off your first purchase with code CULT at https://LIQUIDIV.COM Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. My name is Liz calling in from Florida. And I think the two cultiest things about fan fiction are one, there is a very specific shared language and structure of language, like putting authors' notes at the tops and bottoms of chapters and, the language of what types of fanfiction is for different types of readers. And I think the other culty thing about fan fiction is the fact that pretty much anything goes. I remember being a very young fan fiction reader and writer and seeing fan fictions about adults, having sexual relations

with minors, which sounds horrible. But then when you see the names of your favorite book characters like McGonagall and Harry, all of a sudden this is something that is supposed to become more acceptable. And it's not. My name's Alora, and I'm from California. And the cultiest thing about fan fiction is the way people will try and force celebrities in those fandums to interact with fan fiction. Either they'll be writing fanfic about real-life people, or they'll send stuff like erotic fan fiction to those celebrities expecting them to interact and give a reaction. If they wanted to be involved with fanfiction, they could do it independently on their own time. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern-day cults we all follow.

I'm your host, Reese Oliver, Sounds Like a Colts resident rhetoric scholar. And I'm Imamonari Kiah, author of female fantasy, the most famous girl in the world, and a hundred other girls. Every single week on this show, we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cult in culture, baby, from Arawan all the way to Etsy witches to try and answer. are the biggest question of them all. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? If so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? Live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out kind of cult. Because my dear listener, you can slap the label of cult on just about any group these

days with cultishness comes in different flavors. You have your delicious, nice little harmless obsessions, your Gilmore Girls, your Roller Derby, and then you move to the right of the ice cream fridge in my brain, and you have your more poisonous flavors, your Christian nationalism, and your incels. We're just here to figure out if the flavor of the day is harmful for your health or an innocent little tasty sweet treat. Like a cult compromised of bookmarked archives, frantic beta readers, and alternate universes promising the perfect reunion, reimagined endings, and the sweet risk of shipping your OTP. Today we are talking about

the cult of fan fiction. Oh, a vibrant, something. times chaotic, phantom phenomenon, that reshaped stories and even goes mainstream. Before we get started, Reese, I have been dying to ask you, have you ever read or written fanfic? I feel like if I were to pretend I had not read it, I would look like a fucking liar. I have written fanfic. This is in deep lore. My fanfic was the most reads, I believe had 15K reads at the time of my deleting it. Oh, you were a fanfic like microcelebrity. I wouldn't say that. But I have written. precisely two fanfixions and they do not exist on the internet anymore so don't try to find them. Ew. What about you? You're not going to tell me what fandom you are a part of? Well, it does kind

of make me feel in utero. It is stranger things. Stranger things. Yes. Oh my gosh. Like it feels like so recent, right? Wow. I was 14. Did you feel like personally impacted by the finale? This is the craziest fall off of all time. I have not seen the last season yet because everything I loved about the show deteriorated by mid-season three. I can get more into that hot take another time because that for the listeners is probably the cult that I have fallen the hardest into. My dog's name is Finn, not for no reason. Wow. Okay, so from Fanfic follower to no longer a watcher, we will return to that. I will make you feel less ashamed. I read and wrote fanfic so hard. I got my start in the Buffy Fanfic universe, more specifically Spuffy, which is actually a pretty problematic ship,

But also the root of a lot of enemies to lovers' romances and a lot of working authors will credit Spuffy as like their original fick that inspired their OTPs. And a lot of fantasy authors credit Buffy as the model of a strong female protagonist. So I feel very, very confidently about being a part of that community. That's good. I feel like I just received a really good buffy pitch and I would feel good and strong about being a fanfic writer in that community. Absolutely. So it's time to get into some history, some literature about the literature, some meta literature. I hardly know her. So fan fiction, for all of you listeners that are not fanfic readers and you're like, I understand these syllables separately, this is what it is. Fanfiction describes stories that are written by fans

using preexisting characters and plots from any piece of media, a book, a TV show, a video, a video, game, even just like a famous person's life, although the ethics of that one are kind of murky. So they often steer the original story world in new and unexpected directions. Sometimes they put them in alternate universes. That's an AU. That's your first lingo lesson of the day. So think about like rewriting the end of Harry Potter. So that way, Draco and Hermione fall in love. Or what would have happened if Frodo and Sam kissed on Mount Doom? Like, people have written that. If you have like a question or a scenario in your head about a piece of media that you have watched, some little nerd out there has written it in the dark of their room at 3 a.m. I guarantee you.

According to an article in The Guardian, what most of us would recognize as fan fiction today began in the 1960s when Star Trek fans, shout out Trekkies, started creating zines about Spock and Captain Kurt's adventures on gay. But some would argue that Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet is fanfic itself of Arthur Brooks' 1562 story, the tragical history of Romius and Juliet. Fans have been reimagining the works of their favorite artists in different ways since Homer wrote the Iliad. I would argue the Bible is kind of thick. It's definitely giving like a you. Yeah.

Oops. Fast forward to today, however, and fanfic looks a little different. We've got The Godfather fanfiction.net. Wapad, that was where I wrote and read most of my fanfic. And A.03, which is like Mecca, aka Archive of Our Own. That's the three O's. That's the O3 there. Which, like the Vatican, the Mecca, whatever you call it. It's the spot to be.

three alone has millions of works in hundreds of fandoms with its own tectonomies, tags, and tropes. If you've never been on the website, it is quite the thing to try to navigate for the first time on your lonesome. I recommend taking a friend. It's really big and well-organized that the site actually has won a Hugo Award, which is one of science fiction's highest honors. Like any cult, fanfic very much has its own lingo, its own language, its own ability to make you feel like you are a part of the inner circle. So just a few words that you might come across OTP, which stands for one true pairing, and that's the ship that you would literally go to war for. So if anyone ever disrespects your OTP, that's definitely grounds for excommunication

or cancellation. Ship, by the way, is short for relationship. It can be canon, meaning the official story, or fan in, meaning creation of the fans. So following your example, if the Bible is technically fan fiction, then people have been arguing. over what's canon and what's Fanon for centuries. And you've also got your head canons, your personal beliefs about a character that aren't confirmed in the text, also very biblical. And then there's the AU or the alternate universe where your favorite characters might be reimagined as baristas or royalty or pirates or in some cases all three. YN is short for your name. It's as a reader insert.

So that's basically how readers can insert themselves into whatever their story they're reading. when they read fanfic. And then you've got story tags. Fluff, smut, angst, d. and I, one shot, et cetera. There are so many story tags that honestly, it's easy to lose track of where you are as a fick reader. There are also trigger warnings

that are very much embraced and normalized. In fan fiction, consent is very important. It is. And boundaries are always respected. There's also mention of the Omegaverse here, which is a topic that Reese and I had already discussed off-campi camera. The Omegaverse is a subsection of fanfiction that deals with werewolf hierarchies. And I don't know if this is the place to go over the specific anatomy of werewolves. Think about the ways that wolves work and imagine

humans work like that. Yeah. And you've got Omegaverse. My best friend says that she feels like Omegaverse fan fiction is people being like, what if misogyny were biologically justified? Yeah. And then there's a subset of Omegaverse fan fiction where the women go into heat. And then they then, to go off and have crazy sex for three to four business days. There's a subsect of Omegaverse Fanfiction wherein all of the men become pregnant. If you're looking for it, it probably exists on AO3. And if you're not looking for it,

you can actually now probably find it traditionally published and sold in Barnes & Noble. Speaking of which, there have been so many success stories in the fandom community, fan fiction has launched actual careers. You probably already know that the 50 Shades of Grey started out as Twilight fanficion.net, and it was called Master of the Universe then. Then there's also After. The After series was originally One Direction fanfic that turned Harry Stiles into this like rooting bad boy named Hardin Scott. That became a multi-book and movie franchise.

And don't confuse that with the Larry Stylinson ship, which is a very, very, very real fan theory that Harry and Louis were secretly dating, or are depending on who you're talking to. By the way, that also inspired tons and tons of fick. The number one best-selling romance author, Ali Hazelwood, got her start adapting Raylo fan fiction. And the love hypothesis, her OG fic is even getting a movie adaptation with Lily Reinhardt, and the man who is playing her love interest is married to Daisy Ridley, who, of course, is Ray.

For those of you, Raylo is Ray and Kylo Ren. It's a Star Warship. Yeah. See, here we go getting too much into your own cultishness. But we can't not mention. mention everyone's favorite gay hockey romance that we have all binged a hundred times by now, me probably about a thousand. It honestly needs its own episode, the cult of heated rivalry.

That book is not actually fan fiction, but the book that inspired the show was originally workshop on A-03 as Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes fanfic. And the author, Rachel Reed, was fine tuning that story and looking for reader feedback. To be clear, she firmly states that Heated Rivalry did not start out as ucky fanfic, but the insightful readers of AO3 were a really great source of feedback when she was getting started. That's actually so to you to be like, I don't have money for an editor. Let me change all these names to fandom names, put it on AO3. And the people who are actually doing the writing that the readers their age are interested in will tell me what they want. That's so smart.

And getting all of that like affirmation right off the gate. What's wild is that some of these stories not only gained millions of online reads, they gained enough momentum to leap from cult content to cultural canon. They left the fandom temple and took over the town square. So if you've ever dismissed fan fiction as just teenage fantasy with too much smut, well, first of all, that's rude. Second of all, a lot of fan fiction is actually derived from marginalized communities and queer people wanting to write themselves into narratives that they don't often see themselves in. So you should suck it, suck it. And third, the cult is bigger, smarter, and more powerful than you might Thank. And now that we've covered some history, we know where we are, we know where we stand.

It's time to get into some controversy because if there's one thing that the fandom community has, it's a whole lot of controversy, a whole lot of drama. Like any self-respecting cult, fanfic has its controversies. The biggest one is honestly just the stigma, though, for decades. Fanfic has been dismissed as cringe or embarrassing teen girl behavior. I mean, you guys saw how embarrassed I was at the beginning of this episode. That didn't just come from nowhere. That is a socially to rhyme attitude, okay? Especially because fan fiction is primarily written by like young girls and centers around romance and sex. Double standard is real. Purity culture hates us all. And when male fans are like obsessively building all these Star Wars timelines and on 4chan doing all their fandom shit, they're super

fans and collectors and like groundbreaking dudes. But when teenage girls write 100,000 word one direction fix with impeccable emotional arcs and deeper character work than most TV shows, when they're writing men of more emotional depth than most of the men will date in their lifetime. Suddenly the writing is unsurious? Yeah. I want to poke some holes in that theory. I think that there is a lot to be said about not only people that get off on yucking others young, but also that pick communities that are popularized, especially by young women, so that they can make them feel frivolous or stupid or vapid. And I think fan fiction, because it's been championed by so many women in March Life People for so long, and is seen as kind of something that you do under the cover of night with like your bed cover is held over.

It's fodder for these bullies. Maybe the fact that none of you guys are reading is your problem and not ours. And I can't tell you how many people credit fanfic with getting them back into reading. Reading, writing. Yep. And we need that these days. Absolutely. Another issue with fanfic is just like knee-jerk legal panic.

Fanfic has always lived in a legal gray area. It's like unauthorized, but it's pretty tolerated. I mean, it's usually directing traffic towards the source material. So most of the time, people don't mind. In early days, some authors were like really openly hostile about it and Rice. And other authors embraced it and loved it and were totally decided to capitalize on it. But technically speaking, is fanfic stealing? We don't know.

I don't think so. I don't think fanfic is stealing. I think there are always very specific language at the beginning of a thick stating that they do not own the rights to what they're talking about, that this is done entirely like with reverence and respect for the source material. I think you'd have to outlaw like song remixes. Exactly. As long as it's not being sold, then it's not technically stealing. If you're not claiming it's yours, do whatever you want, man. Be your weird little self. However, sometimes fix converge on downright unethical. And there are huge debates within fit communities on writing fan fiction about real people, whether it's like

actors or people like Jeffrey Dahmer. Enter our first thought terminated and cliche. Don't like, don't read. This has been the defense of controversial writers for years. If you don't like the content, don't read it. Which honestly is so strange to hear the same rhetoric from like fanfic girlies that you hear from like Republican comedy bros. It's kind of funny. And it does not justify the behavior. So the last controversy that I wanted to touch on, as there are many, we could not possibly touch on them all in one short hour. We'll hear a few more specific ones from our guests later. It's about the recent sale of manacled. The manacled controversy centers on one of the most beloved and widely read stories on A.O.3. A dark, Draminey. That's Drako and Hermione. Harry Potter fanfic

by author Senlin U, which at one point ranked as the second most popular fick of all time on the platform. In 2023, Senlin U requested the fick be removed from A.O.3 and began the process of publishing it as an original novel after rewriting the characters and removing Harry Potter IP. This sparked backlash within the fan fiction community, as many felt it blurred ethical lines around monetizing derivative work and betrayed the communal gift-based ethos of fandom. In response, readers began fan-fick binding, the DIY practice of printing and hand-binding fanfix into physical books for personal use, both to preserve manacled and as a protest against fanfic disappearing behind paywalls. But then, of course, the manacled being taken down, this also led to people trying to make a quick buck

selling the original manacled series after it had been long gone. The debate raised larger questions about ownership, profit, and the sacred, slightly culty bond between thick writers and the readers. I'm struggling to understand how this is much different than what happened with 50 Shades. So here's where I understand the bulk of the controversy comes from. I think that a lot of people saw this as a front to the trans community because of J.K. Rowling's turfdom and that by republishing fan fiction that's connected to the Harry Potter IP, they were worried that it might then encourage people to engage more in the Harry Potter universe

and put more money into J.K. Rowling's pocket. I want to note that authors Sendlin U. is non-binary themselves and has been very vocal about how much they do not align themselves with J.K. Rowling. And from what I have seen, a lot of the popular fanfiction authors who have written Germini fan fiction and even the ones whose books have gotten adapted have been very vocal about how they want to separate themselves from Harry Potter. You have to look at who's profiting? Why aren't the publishers protecting both their readers and their authors? Alchemized the book that Manicle became is over a thousand pages long, which requires a ton of work to write

all the new world building. But then you have to trust that once you've done the work to completely remove any and all essence of the Harry Potter IP from your work, that then your publisher would do the work of marketing it as its own separate entity, its own separate piece work of fantasy sales materials were leaked of the publishers marketing the books as like Dreminey summer. As Harry Potter related. Because three of them all came out around the same time and then you could walk into a bookstore and there were Dremaine tables and it actually then did inspire some people to then go back and read Harry Potter.

That's unfortunate. But it's a failure on the publisher's part. think that's a well-measured way of looking at it. Okay, well, I think it's time to get into our interview right after a short break. My name is Bob the Drag Queen. And I'm on the Exchange. And we are the host of sibling rivalry. This is the podcast where two best friends Gab, Talk, Smack, and have a lot of fun with our black queer selves.

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, we are family. So we talk about everything, honey, from why we don't like hugs to Black Lives Matter, to interracial dating to other things, right, Bob? Yes, and it gets messy and we are not afraid to be wrong. So please join us over here at sibling bribery available

anywhere you get your podcast. You can listen and subscribe for free. For free, honey. Hey, this is Monica from Sydney, Australia. And for me, the coolest thing about fan fiction is the idea that it's kind of embarrassing

to write fan fiction, yet when you're within that community, It's all very accepted and everyone's supporting you and wants to enable you. So if it is something where you really are in an in-group, there's like little subsections of fan fiction, there's a lot of passion and it certainly feels very culty to be a part of. But I do feel it is a kind of live your life situation because ultimately everyone is also learning how to write and it gives you the confidence to make your own original works one day. Hi, my name's Salem and I'm calling from the Louisville area and the cultiest thing about fan fiction is probably all the terms and words that you have to know to go through places like AO3 and Wadpad.

There's just a lot of like terminology that if you're a newcomer, you definitely will need a guide for sure. Well, we are so excited to get into our interview. Joining us today are Christina Hobbs and Lauren fillings that are known together as the The best-selling rom-com author duo, Christina Lauren, creator of hits like Josh and Hazel's Guide to Not Dating, The Un-Honeymooners, and my personal favorite, the true love experiment. Welcome, guys. Thank you. Hello. We are so excited to have you both on Slack.

Could you start off just giving a little introduction to our listeners of who you are and your relation to the cult of fan fiction? Hi, this is Lauren. I met Christina in 2009. We started writing together just doing some fan fiction. We did a little one shot. We met at San Diego Comic-Con. And our first collaboration, we'd known each other for like four days. So we're like, yeah, let's write together, you know, because that's just what you do.

It's so collaborative. Then after writing literally one chapter together, we're like, let's write an entire book. Not knowing that that was a very crazy decision to make with a stranger, but it was incredibly serendipitous because we've met our person in that process. And so now we've been writing together since 2009. And she's my best friend, business partner, sister, wife, everythings. I mean, not really my wife, but like my life wife. I mean, people wonder. Sometimes. I was going to say, what a romance novel of a story in itself. Yeah, you guys have the most adorable meat cute. Okay. So I want to ask you a little bit more about the fick that you mentioned writing. I want to know what

that one shot was if you feel comfortable sharing. Of course I get this question. Hi, this is Christina. So I think one of the things about fandom is that a lot of things seem completely normal when you're in it. And then when you're not in it every day, you go, huh, that was interesting. And one of those is like how collaborative everything is that it just felt completely normal for us to just jump into writing together. And another is the kind of language you speak. And in Twilight Thick, which is where we met, because it was Edward, everything was a word. So it was like, Bliss word, Dom word. So this story, there were these one shots, which are just like little novellas or something. And this one was called a parka word. And basically what that meant was that every Edward has an uncircumcised penis. What? Stop it. But it just felt completely normal at the time. So we wrote this story that was just actually so lovely. It was called A Little Crazy. And the only thing about it was that he just was uncut. That's it. It was not even like a theme.

in this story, it just happened to be, he was a doctor without borders, and it traveled internationally, was born out of the country, all of these things. And he just happened to be on cut. And we just had so much fun writing. And it was so popular that it just felt like it was what we were supposed to be doing together. Yeah. And the funniest thing is the first time we ever told that story, I think it was to forms. Wow. Forms are the Atlantic. It was one or the other. It was the moment that I realized we are ruined for polite society. And it was like, we were having such a good conversation with the journalists and we were just like gabbing and halfway through the story, I realized, oh my God, we're talking to the Atlantic about four skins. Uncut penis. Like, are we able to come back from this?

Is this our moment of like polite society cancellation? You know what? I'm so insanely proud of that story. We had so much fun and it was the first thing we wrote together and here we are 30 plus books later. Yep. Well, let's take a step back for a second. I want to know from both of you, what was your like, OG fanfic lore. Who indoctrinated you into the world of fanfic? So I, Lauren, was writing fick before I had a computer because I am in old. And I was writing Days of Our Lives fan fiction. I was obsessed with Patch and Kayla. And so I would come home from school and write in my journal little scenes that I didn't get. Because you know, like in soap operas, you don't get every couple, every episode. And if you do, sometimes you get like one scene. So you're hungry for the

this couple that you ship, but you don't always get what you want. And it's a very good strategy to keep viewers totally locked in. But anyway, so I would write Steve and Kayla fanfic. And my mom found all of my notebooks under my bed when I went to college, because I had this bed that had like a drawer full of fanfic that I was just like writing for myself. But then my first like online, other people knew I was doing it fandom was Buffy. And that was like the best community. Lauren, I got my start in Buffy too. Did you really? Yeah. The Buffy and me sees the Buffy's the Buffy. Buffy and you. So I came to it much later in life.

I was a normie before. And I did not even know what fan fiction was. And then when I was 32, I had a hysterectomy. And so I was just recovering and I had read Twilight and loved it. And while I was scrolling the internet one day, I stumbled upon the site called Twilighted, which was where the majority of the Twilight Fick was posted. Because, you know, back then it was that or fanfiction. And I was like, what is this? It's just all these people just writing stories of the thing that I love for fun. And it just changed my entire life. And I started meeting all these people. And then I started writing. And so I like always joke that I like lost a uterus, but I gained an entire new life. And I met so many people that are still so important to me all those years ago. This was like 2009. But that was my first fandom. And since then I've like read a lot of thick and stuff, but I've only ever written.

in Twilight. Wow, I didn't realize that you'd come to it so much later than Lauren. And then at what point in the process did writing fanfic together start to feel like it could be more than just a hobby? I think when we decided to write a book, we were like, we got to do this. It was like 2010. Yeah. And I think once we decided and we outlined a book, we were like, okay, we are going to make this a thing that we're doing. We're going to publish a book. But we hadn't planned on leaving our job. or having it be our primary source of income. Like, we had no delusions that that was a possibility in any way, shape or form. And so we just wanted to publish a book.

We just wanted to be authors. And so we outlined this story. We thought, well, since we're going to be serious authors, we have to write a really serious book. And we can't write smutty stuff. So we outlined this really depressing book about this guy whose wife died in a car accident, how he finds love again. And then none of us ever wanted to work on it. We're just always putting it off.

realize it's just because it was in our voice. Like, it's not the kind of book we write. And so as soon as we outlined something that was like skinny dipping and magic and the face and like all kinds of stuff, it was just like we flew through it. So I think once we outlined that book, we were like, this is something we are going to be doing together. So you never actually adapted one of your fanfix? Well, we did. But that wasn't the original plan. Got it. So Christina had a really popular fick. It was called The Office. It was basically like, Edward is the asshole boss. And Bella is his scrappy assistant and they hate each other but they have sex all over the office right and it was very big at the time and so we had done this charity called the fandom gives back and it was in

collaboration with alex's lemonade stand foundation which is like a childhood leukemia charity so we had people donate things like one shots that readers could request a certain pairing or a fan art and the first one we did we raised like a quarter of a million dollars so over a few years it had raised almost a million dollars for this charity but in the process of doing that, Christina took her fick down because it was kind of getting some media attention and she didn't want to have the fix up online associated with it since it was a slight childhood charity. We just didn't want to mix that up, right? We wanted to focus on the idea of fandom being generous. So Christina took her fick down and she never put it back up. So fast forward a couple

years and a fan fiction called Master of the Universe was pulled from the website and published as 50 Shades of Gray by E.L. James. So publishing kind of lost its mind. It was selling a ton, and they were like, oh, here we have this source of steamy romance that we can mine. Like, we need to find the next 50 shades. And Christina got this call, and this person was like, hey, I work in publishing and I just saw the office come across my desk, but it had a different name attached to it. Like, is this you? And Christina was like, no. So we called our agent, and we hadn't told her about writing FIC because at the time, this was probably 2012. It was still sort of a black mark on you in publishing if you had written fan fiction. Like, people still gave you shit about it.

So we hadn't told our agent that we had this fan fiction past. We didn't tell her that we deleted our big fandom Twitters. We had all this stuff deleted. So we had to come clean and tell her. We were so worried she was going to drop us. And she's like, so you're telling me that you guys had a giant fandom following? And I'm supposed to be worried about that? That's not a bad thing. So we told her this person is trying to sell Christina's fan fiction as their own. What should we do? And she was like, why don't you just get in there, edit it, post it online, that way no one can steal it, and you guys can move on with your life. And so we both got in it, threw away the ending, edited the whole thing.

And we sent it to Holly. And she was like, you guys, this is really good and really different. Do you mind if I send this out to a few editors? And we're like, sure, why not? Go crazy. So she sent it to a few editors, and it sold in 12 hours. And that's a beautiful bastard. And that was our first book that we ever published.

So, like, it had never been our intention to do that. But because of the way everything unfolded, that was how we got our start in romance. You guys became de facto leaders of the cult of fanfiction, which actually seamlessly brings me to my next question because obviously what we do on this podcast is try to evaluate different groups level of cultiness. And so fan fiction fandoms often operate like decentralized cults of personality and they tend to orbit around specific pairings or authors like YouTube. So who do you think the charismatic figures of the fanfic world are the ones that everyone follows, reveres, or maybe in some cases, fear.

I mean, in Wide Light and Phantom, you know, we used to become like a BNA, which is like a big name author. So the first one, her name was Anne's Goddess, and she wrote this book called Wide Awake, which was on Live Journal, and it just was the most amazing story about Edward and Bella are both insomniacs. And the only way they can sleep is when they are together. And it was just amazing. She was sort of like the first big author.

And then there was this one called The Submissive, and her name was Teresumi. That was the one, like, back then, Twitter was sort of like, you know, we all are in these little circles, you know, everybody talking about the same thing. And it really felt like we were in a cafeteria. And the minute the submissive would update, everybody would be gone. And we would all be reading at the same time. And my fic was pretty popular. And then when Masters of the Universe came, it was sort of like she had taken the big popular

aspects of a couple ficks and put them together. And numbers and stuff back then, you know, I remember the office had a couple million reads, six million reads. But Masters of the Universe, by that point, the fandom was like even bigger. And it became huge. It became bigger than anything. So Snow Cleans, Ice Dragon, what's her name? We called her Icey.

And actually, so she's from the UK. Everybody knows that now. And when she first came to the States, I used to have this panel at Comic-Con that was like a fan fiction panel where we would invite some of the bigger named authors from the fandom to come out. And so the second year that it went on, we invited her out to be on the panel. And so on her journey from the UK to San Diego, she did different tour stops as a thick author. Like, she hadn't published 50 Shades yet. And they held what was called icy cons for her in like different cities. That's crazy. I did not realize that. Wow. Yeah. So she had a really rabid group of people

in the Twilight fandom. I wouldn't necessarily say anyone was scared of her, but she had a big fall. that would go after people pretty hard if you said anything negative about her. That kind of reframes my understanding, too, of why 50 Shades was as popular as it was when it finally hit the mainstream. And there are a lot of popular, like contemporary authors now who started out writing with us, like Sally Thorne, who wrote The Hating Game. She was the Black Arrow. That was our favorite pick ever.

Helena Hunting wrote as Hunter Hunting. So by and large, it's funny to me because it sounds like even though fanfic in theory revolves around like the fandoms themselves, the things that are actually driving most of the cultish behavior are these authors that are kind of these more like behind the scenes figures almost. I think that's an interesting culty dimension of this. Well, and I think like in any community, there's different themes that kind of vibrate through the community, right? You'll have people who feel very strongly about the pairings where they only want to see Bella with Jacob or their diehard Bella Edward. And those feelings create tensions

that are just completely manufactured and absurd when you step back from it. But in the fandom, it's a big thing. And then I also think that there are different conversations about Slashvick, which is like Mail, male, male, or the underrepresentation of the Kualoots and like the wolves and all that stuff. I mean, there's a lot of these different things happening in this fandom. And I think one thing that was interesting is when the fandom had gotten to a certain point, there just was so much drama simmering under the surface. And so somebody started this website called Twankhard.

Like a TMZ. Like revealing fandom drama anonymously. And nobody knew. De Mois for fanfic. Oh, literally. Yes. And so nobody knew who was behind it for the longest time and we eventually found out that it was Sam, Inc. Goddess.

But it was so funny because everybody was like, who's going to get exposed next, you know? She's like the craziness. And I remember thinking this was just like exclusive to Twy fandom. But now you'll talk to people who are in different fandom and they'll be like, oh, this person was so drama in this fandom or this person. And you realize that it's like these little. like communities. It's just what happens. Yeah. Hi, this is Lauren from Reno. I have been kind of involved in fandom for like 20 something years.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in the fanfic community that kind of take it too far. I definitely think there's a lot of unspoken rules that people who aren't in the community are definitely not going to understand. Also, there's always been people doing an in incredibly invasive harassment campaigns where people are mad that there are fans who ship a different ship than they do, or maybe they love a character more than someone else does, especially if it's just a controversial character, whatever the property is. But it's something where people just get like so angry about something that we're all ostensibly doing for fun, right? And unfortunately, it feels like everybody has started to lose the plot, so to speak, Like, they're taking it way too seriously.

Hi, my name is Al. I'm calling in from New Orleans. And I think the cultiest thing about fan fiction is how people can treat characters in a source content as almost like their dolls to play with and set them up in different scenarios without regards for the fact that oftentimes this involves real people. And it could pose a lot of consequences in that aspect. I have a listener to show. So, yeah, thank you. Okay. Lauren, I want to pull out something culty that you said earlier, which is a lot of things happen that seem totally normal from the inside, but then you'll step outside and you'll be like, what is that from like an outside of the fandom perspective? Even if you're like a casual enjoyer, it'll look completely foreign to you. So I want to talk rituals. On that same note, what are some of the unspoken rules or sacred fanfic customs that feel totally normal as an insider? But on the outside, you would be like, what the hell is going on over there? That's a really good question. I mean, I think that there are some,

things that we call fanon that are like canon, right, that weren't in the books, but kind of made their way through fandom and you never really remembered where it came from. And there were moments like watching the movies where we're like, wait a second, does Carlisle get beheaded in the books? Like, what the heck are we watching right now, right? So I think the things that are probably built in or they have to be there is like the way that Edward loves Bella. So like whatever he does, he's doing it because he loves her. And I think that's one of the things about FIC that's a wonderful is like as a way to learn how to write, you can be dropped into the story. And because this world has already been built for you, you can skip all of that exposition up front and just be like,

okay, well, Jacob's going to get shafted. Edward's obsessed with Bella. Bella's going to slip on the ice. Like there's certain things that you're going to have her do. She smells amazing. Even if she's a human, there's these things that everybody builds in. What do you think, Christina? I mean, if I think of like the rules, one of the rules, like we never said fans. And this is something Lo and I have carried even into like being a published author is that sometimes our publisher would be like, we're going to do like a fan contest and we would be like reader because, you know, when you're in fandom, you're a fan of someone else. But they're not your fan. They're your readers. And that is always carried on. And if somebody said fan, it was kind of this like, what? You know, and there was always

this rule you're not supposed to profit from fan fiction. You know, because everybody had a thing at the very top of their fic that's like, I do not own Twilight. These are property of Stephanie Meyer, blah, blah, blah. it's been so interesting for Lowe and I to see the way that communities have changed. I mean, like when we published Beautiful Baster, it was a very different story, but it didn't matter. It still had its seed started in fandom. So there were some people who were really mad at us. And that's totally fair.

Where with Ray Lothick, you've seen so much where that community just comes around them. And they're so excited because they're like one of our own is being lifted up and publishing and getting all this visibility and stuff. And they really rally around that. So, you know, in our day, I remember we were going on submission somewhere and we just have this thing where we were like, oh, my God, if they see our Twitters and we immediately deleted them like that day. And now you have agents going into fan authors' DMs asking them if they've ever thought about publishing. And so it's changed so much in that way. Now it's become fodder for

big publishing blockbusters. Yeah, because everybody wants like some of the work already done for them. They want somebody who has a big reader base already and that sort of in some fandom's comes, you know, built in. It does. It comes built in, but not without effort and lots of cultivation. And the fanfiction space is very creatively freeing, but it is also a very insular space. I'm wondering if there are moments, as I'm hearing allusions to, where the community has turned on itself or on you that you find particularly culty and feel comfortable sharing. And if there is a version of excommunication or cancellation, what might that look like? You know, it's interesting because I think at least for the Twilight fandom, it really did center around publication. And I think it also centered around when people, their egos got too big. So when Sam started Twank Hard and before we knew it was Sam, I think we found out it was Sam once Sam had posted the chats with Erica. So Sam, I think, was helping EL James build a website. And they were talking a little bit about how Erica, I see was sort of separate from the fandom and kind of let minions kind of hand.

handle some of her beefs with people and would DM people if she was like upset or her feelings were hurt. And I was definitely on the receiving end of that once. And we're far enough in our career now that I like honestly don't give a shit anymore. We've never told these stories. Like I'm happy to tell them because I don't even care. But like when she came out to Comic-Con, I had just had a baby. I had like leaking boobs baby, tiny, tiny, tiny baby. Okay. And because I had invited her and then I had somebody else take over like kind of managing it, I didn't get to meet her. I didn't get to spend any time with her. And I guess like she saw that as sort of a snub like she thought I was rude and whatever. So I had all of these people who were her big readers

in my DMs telling me what a terrible person I was for snubbing her. And I was like, apologies, but I literally have a newborn. I just gave birth. That's so per social. Sick de Mania. She's like six weeks old. Yeah. And so that for me was really painful and it kind of started this whole thing. But I think I remember when Sam was setting up this website and she was saying to Erica like how you kind of have this distance from the fandom. It's sort of like you're up on your perch. And Erica replied, well, I quite like my perch. And that was so indicative of how she felt to a lot of people in the fandom.

Like she sort of wanted the attention, but she didn't want to be down in the mosh pit with us, right? And so Sam posted those on Twaincard. And I think she exposed herself because she had to do that in order to say, like, that this is what Erica thinks of all of you. Right before she flounced, that's the word we used to use. She flounce. So that was Sam's big like later, you know? And everybody was like, whoa. And I think that's when Christina and I were like, we are so done with this. Like, this is just too much. And so we kind of took a step back. And that's sort of how I was with the DMs from people who were mad at me. It's like,

Christina and I just don't get involved in drama. And so we just sort of were like, okay, this is a lot. And so I think those kinds of things, they can kill fandoms because you can have these really big authors who are sort of seen as leaders or whatever to new people or they have a huge readership or whatever, and it feels sort of like the community that has been built around them begins to crumble when they show their asses like that. Yeah, you have this thing that's, it's supposed to be a source of joy and then it turns into not fun anymore. Yeah. Yeah. No, that actually makes me think a lot of the root of fanfic comes from this, us versus them, mentality because so many people who write fanfic or read fanfic are queer or marginalized and they want to see themselves

in popular narratives, but they don't, so they end up putting themselves. there. Do you think that that us versus that mentality then leads to your classic, like, cult bunker effect? Do you think it's the outsider stigma that fuels this feeling of, it's the fanfic community against the world. People don't understand us. I think it really fuels this like I found my people sense. I mean, there are times we'll be texting some of our author friends that were fit and we'll be saying something. And it's not even something bad, but it's like the language we use. And nobody else would understand this sentence. So there is a sense. Like, you know, the first time we met Ali Hazelwood, we were like, oh, my God, we speak the same language because we're all from fandom.

And there's just something about like an enthusiasm and sort of like need and love of joy that comes, I think, from fandom. So there really is a sense I think of like you have found your people. Yeah. I do think, though, like when you're talking about marginalized communities, I was going to say that I think fandom is like a microcosm of the larger publishing conversation about like representation and inclusivity. and all of that. But I actually think fandom is sort of like the seed where it starts and then it radiates out into other spaces, these conversations. You know, one of the things that Christine and I have long said is that romance is a space that is kind of positioned to have a lot of societal and cultural impact because it moves very fast in the publishing world. You know, romance publishes really quickly. The cycle is

really short relative to other genres and fiction. And so because the goal is to have a happily ever after, you're sort of creating the space where you can have marginalized people see it happily ever after. You can have people go through hard, difficult, stressful things and they have this, like, safe place at the end. And so because of that, you can do a lot of hard work in the book that talks about, like, society and culture and all these things. I actually think a lot of that conversation happens first in the smaller spaces of fandom, because people don't hold back what they're feeling and thinking. And I think a lot of people do go to fandoms to write the pairing, the queer pairing, the marginalized pairing, the disability, whatever it is that they want to write, they're able to

write that in that safe space. Yeah, because there's no like quote unquote rules. Exactly. And so they can have patience there. So I do think a lot of the things that we are seeing and publishing have been happening for so much longer in fandom. I want to go back really quickly to something that Christina said, which is that when you meet other members of the community, you immediately feel like you have your own language and you can communicate as such. I hate to say it, it's sounding a wee bit culty. You guys have already used some of that language with us, you know, where it's like Fanon and Canon, One Shot, AU, OTP.

But do you think that this like coded vocab then functions like the jargon of a high control group? Like, do you think that the lingo part is part of gaining status as like a member of the fanfic cult, if you will? I mean, okay, it's like, yeah, you get this kind of like shorthand that like you can just say things in little clipped things and people, they know exactly what you're saying. Yeah. But I think there are some situations to, you know. your question, like, where it is like a status thing, I can't think of a time where there was really that in the Twilight fandom. It was very much, if you're here, you're welcome because we're all

doing this crazy thing together. And I think there were a lot of us, most of us found ourselves sort of bewildered to be there in the first place. You know, a lot of us came into the books not expecting to get kind of hooked by them in that way. And so I think if you're there, your family. But I think in other fandoms, you have to kind of earn your stripes a little bit. Yeah, it's like, how long have you been in there or something like that? Yeah. I notice that a lot. I see this the most in like tags where it's like the more tags that you're familiar with and can decode. That's how you know like the further in you are. The longer you've been in the cults. Yeah. Or like it's just a lot of acronyms. And I think that's also similar with the writers based on how many tags they have

attached to the work. You can see how serious they are about it and whether or not you want to engage with it. So I almost think like not even so much whether or not you understand the lingo, but the volume and comfortability with which you use it, I think is a big contributing factor. to fanfic cult status. You mentioned earlier the big dramatic moment when the both of you kind of realized you said you were done with this, I think in reference to just like the Twilight fandom or maybe fandom as a whole. I don't want to put words in your mouth. But that being said, one way or another, you crossed the bridge from thick to mainstream publishing, which is rare and difficult. I applaud you very much. Do you feel like you escaped a cult or do you feel like you maybe just started a new

sect that's a little cozier? I think for me when we decided we were going to pull back a little it just started to feel a little messy. And so we were like, I think I need a break. But we were writing for a couple years between the time we were posting and reading thick. Because, you know, a lot of fandom sort of have their cycle. And they come and they crest and then your favorite authors stop updating.

And, you know, and it was sort of doing that. And we were just doing something else. But Loh and I just have like fandom souls anyway. So we always have something that we're sort of in love with. Like, number one, we could not do this job now without the things that we learned in fandom. And so again, because we always say readers, we don't say fans. So I don't think we ever felt like we were like, oh, the head of this fandom or something. I don't think we've ever felt like that. No. And I mean, we left, but we didn't leave. Like, we still always champion Twilight. We wouldn't let people shit talk. Steph Meyer. We're still like fans. We just didn't want to be in the online space because it was messy. But I mean, after my last fick, I wrote Hunger Games fick and I started writing crash landing on you fick. And, you know, I think we still love writing fan fiction. It's just now we sort of focus more on our book. Yeah, we just don't have as much time anymore.

exit costs, you guys leaving? Do you feel like people got upset when you stopped writing fanfiction? People were upset when I took my fic down because readers do have a sense of ownership over a thing, which is why, you know, some people were upset when a fake is published because they do. They feel like it belongs to the community. So there were people who were upset when I took my fit down. Also, somebody had taken my thick and I was always really good about not giving personal information about myself, but I had said a couple things. Like, I lived this and I could hear this or whatever and they were able to like track down where I lived and I worked at a school at the time and they were able to find me on the school's website and they sent my thick to my boss and that was

one of the big things where I sort of started to go I'm not putting it back up so that was when I kind of started to pull away just a little bit we dedicated beautiful bastard to Stephanie Meyer because she brought us together and we are always like man we will fight to the death for her because she let us have this space where we were able to meet some of the most important people in our lives. And like, I always say that I didn't know I had anything to say until I was in this place and had a platform to say it. I didn't know I had a voice until there were people who were listening. And so I'll always be so grateful for that. And the minute anybody says, Twilight, I'm like, twilight and start talking about it way more than I should.

So I don't even know if it's like we just like broke up with it or something. It's just like, I think you just start checking your thick updates less often and stop going on Twitter as much. and that kind of thing. Yeah. I do think that's something that gives it, like, minus cult points is, like, from the author perspective when you leave, if you just, like, stop checking the website, it can kind of leave you, but then, you know, the story you just told? Maybe not.

Maybe not always. Until it shows up at your boss's ass. Until it mails your boss. Yeah. So it sounds to me, and I mean, it's just clear that the fanfic community as a whole has had its fair share of scandal. Do you think that controversy strengthens the cult-like bonds of fandom, or do you think it splinters them. I think it strengthens the splinters, right? So like, you'll have different camps that feel

different ways about things, and then those people will pull more strongly together. And I think, at least from my perspective, that's probably what happened with Twilight. I think that there's more than just two sides to every single little fight that happened. And I couldn't possibly name all of them because I don't even know all of them. But I think in general, like when you have big beefs in fandom, they tend to polarize. I could be wrong, though. But they're also this thing when you go to explain. explain it to somebody in real life and they're like, they're mad because, huh? And then you sort of realize, oh, right, it only feels big when it's online. Yeah. Well, tracking that, like, do you think that there is a dogma fan fiction that cannot be questioned under any circumstances

unless then chaos will ensue? Like, is there a certain ship or certain tropes? Is it, like, maybe the sanctity of a space like AO3? I think every fandom has their own set of rules. I think every fandom has our own little community. Like, you know, like being in BTS fandom is very different than being in Twilight fandom is very different than being in Raylo or Harry Potter or, you know, any of those. But I don't know that there was anything that was like absolutely verboten in Twilight fandom. And like on A.03, I feel like people can just write whatever they want.

It doesn't necessarily mean people are going to read it. And I kind of like that about fandom. I feel like this is the space frontier of writing where you never know what's going to kind of hook the imagination and get readers. excited until you try it. And publishing isn't willing to take risks in the same way. So I think the, like, the crazy sort of fringe stuff that fandom wants to try, that's what I love about fandom, is it really pushes the way that we write and what we write about and like what kind of stories we're going to tell, you know? Yeah. I think like other than breaking the terms of service, you know, things that are not

accepted by like each individual platform. I mean, the biggest thing for us was like, if you got too big for your bridges, there was just always somebody there to. Yeah, but there were people who made you big by being your fans. So like obviously a majority of people wouldn't necessarily feel the same because they were following and making that person big. You know, I just think there's like a lot of jealousy in writing sometimes, you know, and I think that's always where that sort of came from. But I mean, it's just funny to me that like fan fiction specifically gets some crap for being like unoriginal and derivative. But then at the same time, it's this space that is actually the most creative and most adventurous and brave in writing. So I don't know. It just feels like sort of this interesting paradox.

Also, just like every idea has been written before. Like, you are always what makes the difference. But, alas, I guess publishing would rather say, go write a thick about it. And if it takes off, then get back to be. And then we'll talk. Okay, guys, switching gears a little bit, we'd like to play a little game with you. Yippee. That sounds fun.

So this is going to be called Ships in the Night. We are going to tell you a name. And you have to tell us if it's the name of a fanfic ship or a real-life cult name bestowed upon a cult member. Okay. I might not do well on this, but let's do it. Same. Okay, so we're going to start off with Dustiel.

No idea. I'm going to say fan-fix ship. You are correct. Ding, ding, ding. That is Dean and Castile from Supernatural. Oh, okay. I should have got that. Okay, round two.

You did get it. You did get it. Yeah, you did. Round two. Prefect. Oh, that's a cult. Do you know which one? for bonus points? My brain just wants to yell Scientology, but I know that's not right.

Close. It was nexium. Oh my God. I just listened to the freaking podcast. It's fresh in your brain. Okay. Number three, Drinney. And that sounds like fiction. That's a ship name. Yeah. You guys are absolutely killing it. That's Draco and Ginny from the Harry Potter universe. Why am I surprised about that pairing? There's everything. I know. It exists. Okay, next step. Stucky. Oh, that's definitely a fandom. That's an OTP, man. Listeners, that's Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes from the Marvel Cinematic Universe. My husband knows whenever I watch that, I go, and kiss.

I think it goes, knock it off. Everyone watching hockey games now after he did all right. I know, right? Yeah, yeah. All right. For number five, we have Fetan. Oh, that is Scientology. Yeah, that sounds like a cold.

That is like your soul that, like, is in your body, your human body. body form thing. Yeah. Absolutely. Colty extra credit. And it sounds like a cold. Like it truly does sound like a coldy. Next up.

Next up. Scolder. That sounds like an X-Files. That's X-Files. That's X-Files. I knew you guys. Are you got that one? Yeah.

Feels right. Sheila. I'm going to say that's a cult. That sounds culty. That is a cult. Wow. We really can't. We really can't get them.

Nothing gets by you. Yeah. That's the Rajneiss. I was going to say the Rajneishi. Yeah, good job, guys. Okay. And last, but not least, Black Bonnet.

I think that's a fan name. I'm going to say Colt. Okay. Any guesses for specifics from either of you? I feel like Marvel something. I don't know. No, it's Steed Bonnet and Ed Teach or Blackbeard from Our Flag Means Death.

Oh my God. When My Goddaughters is going to kill me for not getting that. I'm so sorry, Ava. No, I'm glad we finally got one over on you because you were very accurate. You absolutely slayed that game. I cannot thank you guys enough for joining us. This has been so insightful.

I am such a big fan of your work. If listeners want to read said work, follow you, and your cult, where can they do that? We're just Christina Lauren on Instagram and we don't want to use anything else, I don't think. No, we're mostly on Instagram. Yeah. ChristinaLorenbooks.com. all of our info. Incredible. This has been such a treat. I am so, so grateful to y'all. Thank you for

all of your beautiful insight. And we will talk soon. Yep. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Amon. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, a watch your back, or get the fuck out, which do you think the cult of fan fiction falls into? I hate to say it because I think I'm going to get the reputation for being too soft on the show. But I, I don't. think it's a live your life. I feel the other way. I feel like I can be too critical, but I also honestly think it's to live your life. Like I think, yes, there can be drama that comes from it, but because it's ultimately like derivative work, usually it's just highlighting deeper underlying dramas that would have existed or come to light in other scenarios otherwise. And it is, as

Christina and Lauren outlined, extremely easy to leave if you really need to. Just log off. Just pick a new fandom. Pick a less toxic one. Come on, guys, log off and lock in. Anybody reading more is generally a good thing in my book. Yeah, it's a win. It's a win for society. Well, Colties, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. Join us all for a new cult next week. And in the meantime, stay culty.

But not too culty. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Reese Oliver and Amon Haririakia. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot.

And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Oversinking, notes on modern irrationality, and word slut, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram. for all the discourse at Sounds Like a CultPod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.