Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Fast Fashion

Episode Date: May 17, 2022

Fast Fashion (think: brands like Forever21, Zara, and Shein) could be described as an industry that takes high-end clothing designs and makes them quick and cheap for the masses. Or, if you look at it from a cult angle, it could be described as an international conspiracy that preys on the dreams, insecurities, and pleasure-seeking brain chemistry of mostly young women, while weaponizing social media to create a bottomless sense of co-dependence in order to make as much money as possible and will stop at nothing—worker exploitation, environmental destruction—in order to keep people in that profitable vicious cycle. Which one is closer to the truth? This week, Isa and Amanda interview Leah Thomas, the founder and author of The Intersectional Environmentalist, to find out… Listeners can get 65% off their first month of medication management and care counseling at Cerebreal.com/Cult Head to MeritBeauty.com/cult to get a free signature reusable makeup bag with your purchase.  For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/CULT. 

This is Sounds Like A Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina and I'm a comedian. I'm Amanda Montell, author of the book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism. Every week here on our show we discuss a different group that puts the cult in culture, from Elon Musk stands to vegans to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? To join our cult, follow us on Instagram at Sounds Like A Cult pod. I'm on Instagram at Issa Medina, I-S-A-A-M-E-D-I-N-A-A, and I'm over on Instagram at Amanda

underscore Montell, and feel free to hit us up on Patreon, where you can listen to our show ad free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. And check us out on YouTube. We don't actually have a video this week, only audio, because we had to record outside of the studio, but I'm actually kind of glad about that, because we're talking about the cult of fast fashion this week, and I don't want people to be able to see me and judge my outfit. Yeah.

I mean, I'm wearing pajamas. We dragged a few brands this week, and I can just hear people who love those brands being like you look like trash. We don't like bullies on this podcast. I mean, if you're going to bully us, don't come here. That was my stance against bullies. Feel free to critique us, but don't bully us. Yeah.

Kind feedback is welcome. Today we're going to talk about the cult of fast fashion. Do you wear fast fashion? Do you shop at these stores? If we are talking about the biggest fast fashion brands like Zara, H&M, yeah, of course I shop at these stores. Yeah. I mean, not often.

I used to like all the time. I think maybe three years ago I decided I wanted to try and spend more money on less items. Yeah. So I've kind of been doing that now. I've been trying to do a lot of thrift shopping, but if I'm like, I need an outfit and I have no time, I'm like, I'm going to go to the mall and I'm going to go to Zara and I'm just going to get a fit.

That's the thing. It is called fast fashion for, as it turns out, many reasons, not only because you can buy the clothes fast and conveniently online, two-day shipping in the mall, but also because of how the clothes are manufactured and consumed and all those things. So maybe let's define fast fashion for those who don't know. Yeah, fast fashion is the practice of rapidly translating high fashion design trends into low-priced garments and accessories by mass market retailers at really low costs. Yeah.

Although for the purposes of this episode, I might define fast fashion as an international conspiracy that preys on the dreams and insecurities and pleasure-seeking brain chemistry of mostly young women while weaponizing social media to create a bottomless, cult-like sense of co-dependence in order to make as much money as possible and will stop at nothing, worker exploitation, environmental destruction, in order to keep people in that profitable vicious cycle. Okay, ox for a dictionary, take it easy. What is that definition?

I mean, I just, I feel like fast fashion seems like it's fairly innocent and you could just think of it as a quick and easy way to buy cute clothes that come in lots of sizes, but I think it's all, it's both of these things. Yeah, yeah, I think it's like, it's more so like the implications of fast fashion that we're looking into. Exactly. And that's what makes it such an interesting topic for us to discuss. Yeah.

And as you know, we love to push the boundaries of what a cult is and that's what this episode is all about. And there are so many of these brands. I mean, when I was in high school, Forever 21 was the main fast fashion brand that everybody shopped at, but also H&M and then there's Zara, Topshop and all of these online exclusive fast fashion brands like Fashion Nova and the Sheehan we recently learned how to pronounce it. Which we did have to watch a YouTube vlog to learn how to pronounce it because it is

a confusing word. I like, I've always loved Zara because it's originally from Spain and it was a local to Spain. Yeah. In middle school, I always felt really cool because when I would go to Spain, I would come back with a Zara haul and like no one knew what it was. Before a haul was even a word. Yeah.

And not to date you. Yeah. And Issa is very, very young everyone. I am on borderline Gen Z, but when I was in middle school, they didn't have like Zara in the US. I think it was like when they began opening their markets to the United States is when they really were like, okay, fast fashion. And you could tell by the quality of their shit, I have a jacket, like a leather jacket

from Zara that I bought in Spain that is still beautifully intact in my closet. Yeah. I bought a jacket at Zara today. It would not last me a year. I do think of Zara as sort of like the chic fast fashion brand among them, right? Because it did start in Europe. And when I used to work at that fashion and beauty website, there was like some clout associated with Zara.

Yeah. Zara was like the populous way of being a fashion girl. Yeah. It was like an Instagram account that some of my colleagues ran called the devil wears Zara. And it was just like all outfits styling Zara in unique ways. Yeah. But then I remember when it became like mass media news that Zara didn't treat their workers

well when like fast fashion started to be exposed for what it was. Everybody was shook. Yeah. Everyone was shocked. And it's like, where are you? Have you seen the sticker price? Yeah. Seriously.

It's like that didn't get so cheap by accident. Yeah. So what about some of like the top most important facts to know about fast fashion? It is extremely motherfucking cheap. Like the time between manufacturing and consumption is nothing compared to normal retailers. Right. And that's why when you're like, oh, I need a quick outfit that's like in style right now, you go to those places because they have the outfits pre-made for you.

Yeah. Or you just shop them right on Instagram where you saw the trend in the first place. Yeah. I read that typically the design sourcing and manufacturing and distributing process takes about 21 months for a traditional retailer, but for Zara, it takes four months. So it's just like boom, boom, wham, bam. Thank you, ma'am. And there's even ultra fast fashion, which produces new products that hit their like

digital shelves every single day. Every day. Yeah. And when people are fiendishly shopping to keep up with trends, they're not thinking about the actual humans overseas in mostly developing countries where being paid next to nothing to keep up with the demand for these cheap clothes. There's just such a secret, terrible underbelly and so many insidious layers to this industry. And the products are so low quality that they're practically disposable.

Yeah. So fast fashion is so popular because it works hand in hand with social media. Tastes are driven by social media, but these companies work with influencers to drive those tastes. So there are these micro trends that used to, I feel like a few years ago, would last a few years or at least a few months. And now with TikTok, trends are cycling out within a number of weeks. Trends are cycling out so fast that it's like, I don't even think teenagers can keep up with

the trends themselves. I mean, if fast fashion trends are belief systems, I truly don't know what to believe anymore, which I think makes me an atheist, which in this metaphor, I think makes me a nudist. It's like, are we wide boot? Are we like straight boot? Are we obviously not skinny jeans? Those have been out for a while.

No, I'm desperately confused about what's in. High-waisted, low-waisted. I've seen it all. My emo phase lasted at least three and a half years from Avril Lavigne's conception to American rejects transition. You know what I mean? All American rejects? Yeah.

Oh, I had such a crush on the lead singer. You can sip a salami when the girl. Yeah. Or 303. I had my emo phase literally from seventh grade through 10th grade. High school. Yeah. And now emo is back for like five seconds, and we can celebrate or experience some amount

of disdain for the revival of emo, because it makes us feel old. When a trend from only like five, 10 years ago comes back, I feel ancient, but then it cycles back out again right away. I don't want it is getting here, but the low-waist trend from the early 2000s. I absolutely cannot. We can't bring that back because it is also like fucked up for like body standers. Yes. See, the Cult of Fast fashion just gives me constant psychological whiplash, though,

because it acts like low-rise jeans are back, and now I have to prepare my soul for that, only to be like, oh, never mind, we're moving on to something else two weeks later. I just don't feel emotionally strong enough for this rollercoaster. I saw this girl with like the lowest waist at like the Heim concert. I was like, girlina, no. Homie, I like went and spoke at a high school in LA the other week, like a fancy charter school or something, and the fashion happening at this place was, again, it was confounding. There were these two like fashion girls who came up after the talk to like compliment my

outfit, which I was honestly, I was like so flattered to be like cool among these cool girls when I was never cool in high school. But their two outfits couldn't have been more different. One was in like a tuxedo, and the other had the lowest slung. I could see her pelvic bones. Yeah, they don't even know what's in style, because I think ultimately what's in style is to be different, and that's like what it is, is to be unique. And so like everyone is being unique, and so there just is no style, which is almost

revolutionary or like anti-fast fashion in a way. I suppose, but then the irony is that like when young people or people who are our age and older shop at fast fashion brands, the trends almost all end up coming back to square one. Like they all end up looking the same in the end, so there is almost this conformity, this homogeneity to all of these fast fashion looks. Because I think there's that battle right now between like fast fashion and thrift shopping fashion.

Yes. And with fast fashion, it's like caked on makeup, like it doesn't look good in natural light. It just looks good on Instagram. It looks good on Instagram. Yes. And if you don't want to wear it to a party, it's probably going to rip. The main thing that makes it culty in my opinion is all of the secrecy.

Like there is not a face on the corporate end of fast fashion that you can blame or complain to or hold accountable. They're employing these little influencer minions who are then making a promise that if you wear this clothing item, you're going to be cool, you're going to be worthy. Which of course, a clothing item cannot make you. And then it creates this like creepy sense of conformity because like even though the trends are cycling so fast, during each micro trend, the influencer is uploading haul videos where they're then telling people exactly what the name of the item is, what the low

cost is. And so then everybody ends up looking the same like on a fucking cult compound where everybody's in a robe. Yeah. That's so funny. Like everyone is trying so hard to look different, but they're all keeping up so they end up looking the same. Exactly the same.

Speaking of thrifting versus fast fashion, you can truly create a cult and an us them dichotomy out of everything, including clothes, because there is now this us versus them war between like people who shop at Zara and H&M because of all the pressure to do so. The fact that like influencers are pressuring us. The brands themselves are pressuring us to keep up with the trends. Like don't outfit repeat. Also these brands truly are more accessible and cheaper. And yet there are those who are up on their high horse like this is terrible for the environment.

This is terrible for the workers, which is true. But there's no nuance. It's a privilege to be able to prioritize your fashion and your style anyway in any capacity. So like the way I think about it is that like when I have a time, when I have like a Saturday where I'm not like doing anything, I'm exhausted. I don't want to go thrifting sometimes. Right. Sometimes I do.

Sometimes I want to like meet up with my friend and grab a coffee and we'll go thrifting and it's like a whole vibe. But other days I'm like exhausted. I want to lay in the park and like stare at the clouds. And so like to take time out of your day and find like unique pieces that fit you like thrifting is time consuming. It's time consuming. It's not size inclusive.

Like people get so high and mighty about like you shouldn't buy fast fashion. Even though there are some fast fashion brands who've tried to become more sustainable and have started like a green line or like an ethical line, which like I have such complicated feelings and thoughts about. But like just the fact that there is this war at all between people who are unilaterally morally superior because they thrift and people who are, you know, degraded or thought of as inferior because they shop at fast fashion brands. It's just, it's reflective of the entire problem in our culture right now of like ideological

schism, you know? Like at the end of the day, this cult like divide of fast fashion versus slow fashion is really just a symptom of our larger anxieties about the environment, right? And wanting a solution. But where it gets cold like is when you're convinced that you possess the wisdom to solve the problem and everyone who doesn't do what you're doing is the enemy that that's literally the attitude of all cults. Yeah.

You mentioned how like there are some big brands that then have like specific lines where they're like environmentally friendly and like you look at the tag and it's like this one was made environmentally friendly and like a safe warehouse and it's like, if you're capable of doing that, dude, why aren't you doing that with all of your products? Like instead, you're just creating more trash for the universe because you're still making the shitty thing. Yes. And you're making the good thing.

And meanwhile, you're telling on yourself like we know how to do this sustainably and yet we're mostly deciding that too. Or they're telling on themselves that the sustainable thing is actually bullshit and it's probably just marketing like I usually don't believe the sustainable brand at like large brands. And that is so reasonable because they do use all of this sort of vague and dubious language to create the sense that you're doing something more ethical and more environmentally friendly. It's called greenwashing sometimes, the language like, you know, calling their lines eco-friendly

or using words like green, responsibly made, ethical. It's things that like don't have a stamp on them of approval. It's kind of like when you go to the grocery store and you want to buy eggs that have like a really orange yolk. And before you used to just be able to be like, I'm gonna get organic eggs. Yeah. Like I'm gonna get organic free range eggs. Turns out free range can still be in a fucking cage.

Yes. So then you have to get organic, free range, Caged, free, raised, cage free. You have to look at all of the things. It's so impossibly confusing, especially because yeah, these words don't have set definitions. So they can basically say whatever they want. Zara's sustainable brand is called Join Life. I'm so disappointed in Zara.

Zara's website has been the same for forever. I know. It's the most fucking annoying website on the planet. The pictures are so big. You can't see anything. I know. I know. Do they do that on purpose?

I don't know. Yeah. The Zara website is like hilariously the worst. Let's maybe talk a little bit about the origins and history of fast fashion because we think of brands like Sheehan and Fashion Nova as brand new and they are, but this concept has actually been around for hundreds of years. Yeah, it's been actually around since the 1800s, which of course when we say fast in the 1800s wasn't fast for today.

It wasn't like two day shipping, you know what I mean? On a horse. Yeah. On a boat. But like fast fashion as a concept has been around since the 1800s, like with the invention of the sewing machine, that's really when they were like, oh, we can actually make things a bit quicker. It happened in 1846 and there was an extremely rapid fall in the price of clothing and increase

in the scale of manufacturing and clothing. When I think of this, I think of like kind of like in Bridgerton, how they like would have to get outfits for the season. Yes. Because they couldn't go to the shop and get a new outfit for like every ball. Right. Of course, you had to really plan for what you were going to wear, but things really changed in the early to mid 20th century, World War II led to a more standardized process

for clothing production. And then from the 1960s to the 2000s, that's when trends really began moving super quickly and young people started to embrace cheap clothing in order to keep up with those trends. Yeah. And that makes sense because of course, you know, there was like industrialization in that time period and also media, magazines, magazines on stands. And of course, in turn, people started learning about trends faster. Yes.

And also at that time, they moved their textile mills overseas and outsourced labor to keep their costs down. By the time we got to the social media age, malls were not able to stay stocked with the variety of merchandise that people wanted like every single week or every single day. And that's why online fast fashion companies skyrocketed in such a meteoric way. Yeah. And I feel like their whole MO is to have you buy things without having tried them on. Yes.

And then in your head, you're like, oh, I'll return this if it doesn't fit me. But like, I don't know the statistics, but it feels like 80% of the time you just don't end up returning it. Yeah, you don't end up returning it. You throw it away. Yeah. But I even heard, oh my God, the most horrifying stat. I was about to say fun fact.

This is not a fun fact. If you order clothing on Amazon, which another fast fashion brand at this point is Amazon, the Amazon basics, if you return it, it doesn't get restocked. They fucking burn it. What? They burn it. I knew that they did that with really high fashion. Like I don't know if you knew this, but in Louis Vuitton, they burn their purses to

keep the price high because like supply and demand, if like they were to resell it to like retailers, then it would be sold for cheaper and that would like lower the value of the brand. They burn it like a like a letter written by some important writer that they wouldn't want anyone to read. Yeah. Yeah. In the 1980s, Americans bought about 12 new articles of clothing every year.

As of 2019, the average American buys 68 new clothing articles a year. It is true that fashion is an expressive art form. You know, like I think I went through a phase where I also wanted to kind of keep my wardrobe really simple so that I could just buy high quality items and mix and match. And then I was like wearing beige every day, like Kim Kardashian style. And then I was like, if someone looks at me, they have no idea what I am. What your personality is. Yeah.

I feel the same way about clothing. Like I like my clothing to reflect my personality. I want people to perceive me. But I just think that these fast fashion companies like Sheehan and Fashion Nova and Zara or whatever, like they're not encouraging self expression. They're encouraging conformity. They're encouraging consumption because the important thing to them is just their bottom line.

Like the faster they can move trends, the faster they can make clothing, the faster they can make money. Yeah. So let's talk about the king of fast fashion right now, which is Sheehan. Yes. Okay. So when I think of the ultimate fast fashion brand that all the influencers do their halls about, it's always Sheehan, which is a very controversial brand.

It was first launched as Sheehan Side, that's where Sheehan comes from. We've learned. I did not know that. Yes. In 2008, by an entrepreneur named Chris Hsu, Hsu specialized in SEO marketing, which makes a lot of sense seeing that Sheehan exists exclusively online and became so motherfucking popular. It is valued at over a hundred billion dollars, which is higher than H&M and Zara combined.

Absolutely madness. It's insane. The only other private companies valued higher than Sheehan are SpaceX and Bite Dance, which is the company that literally owns TikTok. That is so fucking nuts. Think about that. Think about the wealth that is generated by this fast fashion brand. I don't think we realize how huge these companies really are.

And their marketing strategies are so smart because I really would not have smart evil potato, potato, potato, because I really would not have heard of Sheehan if it wasn't for TikTok influencers, if it wasn't for the way that they started with micro influencers. Speaking of the influencer strategy, it's smart and evil because it basically fuels consumer shopping addictions, like the actual chemicals in our brains and also our inferiority complexes. It keeps consumers coming back to the cult over and over and over again by constantly giving something new and shiny and making them feel like they need these new items

in order to be a worthwhile person. They add about a thousand new styles to their website every day. It's kind of like, you know, like when people are addicted to buying cards like baseball cards that come in these packets because they don't know what they're going to get in the pack. If it's going to be a good card or a bad card, I feel like because it's such low quality and it's so cheap, even if you order an entire haul, but you have like one thing that you love in the haul, you become addicted to ordering it because you're like, oh, what if I get

lucky this time and I order one thing that I'm going to love and wear. It reminds me of Lula Roe. Remember where they would wait and anticipate to see if they got like the unicorn pattern leggings that were the most desirable. Sheehan is the single most talked about brand on Instagram, YouTube and TikTok. Whoa. Speaking of cult leader, big brother vibes, they are constantly using data tracking to figure out what new designs to make and the designs are being made so fast that some of

them end up hella problematic since they don't even have time to think or evaluate the designs. For example, they sold a necklace with a Buddhist swastika pendant. Yeah, they're making these designs in like as little as three days. And so they, well, I don't know in what world they wouldn't understand that that was problematic. I know. You don't need three days. You don't need three days. You just need eyes.

Yeah. So Sheehan is problematic for a lot of other reasons too. They haven't publicly disclosed workers' wages or hours. And not to mention the environmental impact, like the amount of waste being generated by the overconsumption of clothes is fucking insane. The amount of water it takes, the amount of oil it takes to generate these products is just deeply upsetting. And that's not even taking into account like the shipping that has to happen before from

like original sources of dye and things like that, that your shipping cotton from one side of the world to get it to the factory workers. And then from there, you're shipping internationally to people's doorsteps. Only for most of these products to wind up in a landfill like less than a month after the consumer buys it because it's so shitty, you know, it's just like this vicious cycle of waste. Yeah, but it's like a cult in that the only thing we see, the only thing we hear about is like from the influencers who are inducted by the brands by sending them free things,

then they do these halls and then they make it seem like this like beautiful thing that's going to make you happy and it's going to get you friends because you're going to be fashionable and it's going to make you a part of the cool kids and you don't think about all the negative aspects. No, I mean, that's like such a cult red flag to create this promise that if only you buy this clothing item, then you will be all of these things, you will have this cool identity like you will be an influencer yourself, meanwhile concealing all of the exploitation and abuse and the fundamental fact that like a piece of clothing is never going to bring

you enlightenment. Yeah, exactly. And that's on Sheehan. And that's on Sheehan. Next up, we're going to talk to a very special guest, Leah Thomas. She is an eco communicator, aka an environmentalist with a love for writing, creativity. She's based in Ventura, California. She is the founder of eco friendly lifestyle blog at Green Girl Leah and the intersectional

environmentalist platform, which is a resource and media hub that aims to advocate for environmental justice and inclusivity within the environmental education movement. And it's also now a book. Could you begin by telling us a little bit about you and your work and how you started taking an interest in sustainable fashion? Well, I'm Leah and I studied environmental science and policy in school. And then one of my first jobs outside of school about two years later was working at Patagonia headquarters in Ventura.

So I learned a lot about sustainable manufacturing and ethical manufacturing of clothing. It was just a really cool experience, but I think before then I was also really passionate about just like thrifting. I don't know if passion is the right word, but it's something that we kind of just did out of necessity growing up. And then later on, I learned that that was sustainable. So yeah, that's what I do. And I founded an environmental nonprofit called an intersectional environmentalist about two

years ago. How do you use your social media to like talk about sustainability or like, what does your nonprofit focus on? I started my blog Green Girl Leah in 2016 and it was mostly to help show representation and the sustainable living space because, you know, there weren't a lot of black kind of content creators that were also being as included in a lot of sustainability narratives and zero waste narratives. So I started Green Girl Leah then and I was just kind of posting about, you know, sustainable

fashion, sustainable living, things like that. And then during the summer of 2020, during the Black Lives Matter movement, I really wanted to also start talking about racial justice and environmental justice and the communities that are most impacted by those things. And that's what kind of helped my personal account grow a lot, but I felt like a lot of that was coming to my blog about sustainable living. So I wanted to create a separate space where I could talk about environmental education a little bit more broadly.

And that's what sparked Intersectional Environmentalists as its own platform, which now has an audience of almost 500,000 people, which is really cool. And we've been able to consult with a lot of really cool companies to help reshape their missions to be rooted in like racial justice and environmental justice at the same time. So yeah, that's kind of what we do, we just break down different sustainability topics as nuanced as we can. And I wrote a book about it that just came out in March and it's called The Intersectional Environmentalist.

That's so exciting. Congratulations on all of that. And on finding a way to use Instagram for good instead of evil, it's increasingly rare. And within the environment, especially, I feel like that's the movement that's literally going to affect everybody. Absolutely. How has that fashion changed and exploded over the past few years in particular? If we take it back to the 80s, which is not really that long ago, but kind of back in

the day before the 90s and before kind of just like a pop culture explosion and MTV being you know, everything that it is, so maybe even going back to the like 70s, 80s, oftentimes fashion was something where people would see it on the runway and then only a select group of people who could afford it could get those clothes. And then there were department stores and other stores that were around and they had like seasons, so you could only get clothes or new clothes that were restocked depending on the season. So there's four seasons, so there's usually four collections and then outside of that,

it was kind of just like rich people who had access to some of those runway looks. But later kind of with the explosion of MTV and people starting to see all of these really cool expressions of fashion, a lot of younger people wanted those looks from the runway and from those music videos a lot more quickly. So some people behind, you know, different fashion corporations like H&M and later Forever 21, found a way to kind of cut corners and make clothing that was cheaper and that you didn't have to just get it once per season. But if they saw something that was on the runway, they found a way to manufacture that

sometimes in a couple of weeks and get it to department store floors. So since the 90s, there's kind of been a rise of this fast fashion, which is mostly driven by the consumers want to be able to be on trend and trends are changing a lot quickly. And then recently with the explosion of Instagram, which is even more prevalent than MTV, people see someone on a show or an Instagram influencer wearing something and then suddenly it's available before you know it in a span of a couple of days and it's really, really cheap. That's what fast fashion is clothes that go from the runway or go from your TV screen to a store, whether it's online or in person really quickly.

And it's really cheap, but it's cheap because they're cutting a lot of environmental and social corners to make the cost drop to like $5 a shirt, which isn't really normal. I feel like also it lowers the quality of the clothes to which lowers like the life expectancy of the clothes. I don't know. Is that a word? The lifespan. That's what it is.

Yeah. And then the shirts like get holes in a non-cool way and then you're like, oh, I need all new clothes now. Yeah. And that's kind of a part of it. Back in the day, clothes were made to last, especially winter clothing, you're supposed to wear it for a really long time, but with fast fashion, it's just made as quickly as possible.

So might just start bursting at the seams. And part of that is because of the exploitation of garment workers. So they're using child labor or slave labor, trying to get people to make these items as quickly as possible with materials that are not really good materials at all. So you also start to see that reflected in the quality of the clothing, which is pretty messed up because then people have to throw away their clothes, all those clothes are filling up our landfills and it's causing a lot of environmental problems, unfortunately. They're literally pretend clothes.

Their clothes that only look good in a photo for one snap and then you have to toss them. They're as pretend as the medium of Instagram itself. When I first moved to LA, I moved with one suitcase. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to build my style here. And I was like, okay, I'm an adult now, so I'm going to buy pieces that are more expensive but that I can wear and can match with my entire closet. But I find it difficult to know whether something is just expensive and overpriced or it's actually quality because I feel like there's these intermediate brands that present themselves

as like higher quality, but I've heard that a lot of things are manufactured in the same places. Yeah. And it's like some of them are a bit higher quality, but unfortunately, unless they're actually like paying people a living wage, like usually if a company is paying someone a living wage, if they're using sustainable materials, you'll know about it. When you go to their website, you'll see like, oh, we save this much water and this is fair trade certified, et cetera.

So I really do struggle with that when there are brands like, I'm trying to think of some off the top of my head, like Zara. Like Anthropology. Yeah, exactly. Like, like J Crew or Anthropology, who are like one tier above Urban Outfitters. But I think they're owned by the same people. Yeah. I know that Anthropology and like Urban are owned by the same people and J Crew and Made

Well are owned by the same people. Yeah. Well, for example, they do have a lot of items that are fair trade certified, et cetera. And you kind of see that reflected in the price. Anthropology, they might have like specific collections, but if they're not telling you, the chances are that it's still being made in those same garment facilities. And there's a lot of environmental corners that are cut, but maybe the people in the garment facilities that aren't being paid a living wage had extra time to work on that

shirt. So it's like, okay. You mentioned that before it was kind of like the rise of like MTV and like TV that moved fast fashion forward and now it's more social media because trends are truly moving like so fast these days. I'm having a moment with pants, you know, I'm like, are we like widebell? Are we high waisted? Are we low waisted?

I'm like, I don't know what's happening. I too am pants confused right now. How do you think like social media has affected like these trends? And can you talk about how the cult of Instagram and the cult of fast fashion kind of feed on each other? I kind of messed up because these brands are working with influencers. So whenever there's like a new look, they work with people to push it out to their trusted audience.

So we start to see the rise of companies like fashion Nova. So they're just completely getting rid of storefronts. And because of that, you know, in the past, say forever 21 was like the God of fast fashion because they were able to get looks in the stores within a couple of weeks. But now we don't even have to wait a couple of weeks. One can watch an episode of like keeping up with the Kardashians and see something that Kim Kardashian is wearing. And then they can put it on the website before that item's even ready.

And then get it out to an influencer to be like, oh, I love this so much. And then people can buy it. And then it's not even, it's taking a couple of weeks, it's taking a couple of days, which is really terrifying. So yeah, Instagram and influencer culture pushing things out to people really quickly is making the timeline even shorter, which means more exploitation throughout the supply chain. Yeah.

Our culture is so obsessed with instant gratification. I'm like, can we all just relax? Like what's the rush? And isn't it ironic because speaking of life spans, life spans are longer than they used to be. And yet life is moving so quickly that you end up being less satisfied with your life even though it is longer. Who are some of the leaders in the fashion space, would you say?

So I would say to be completely honest, a lot of people are aware of fast fashion now. So then you're starting to see something else that's really interesting. So like the rise of Depop and the secondary market, which feels a little bit more sustainable, but it's still people buying fast fashion. I guess it's good that you're kind of keeping things in circulation for a long time. But we can talk about the gentrification of thrifting later. I would say some of those brands that have just kind of cropped up are Fashionova and also Sheehan.

I've never bought anything from it, but I hear about it all the time. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of frightening, more than frightening, and I don't want to just throw these trigger words out there because of fast fashion. There's a lot of toxic dyes that are being dumped in waterways, et cetera. So even though that T-shirt might be $5, that's not the true environmental and social cost of that item.

Yeah. I heard this comedian yesterday talk about how everyone in Silver Lake, which is like a neighborhood in LA, is obsessed with telling everyone that their pants were $3 from a thrift shop, but then they live in mansions. Right. Oh, God. That is such a pet peeve, and we should talk about this when, yeah, the gentrification of thrifting, as you mentioned.

There's obviously a lot of confusion and shaming that goes along with shopping habits and the environment. And it feels like people's criticisms of fast fashion can be kind of elitist and hypocritical at times. For example, I remember Lana Del Rey wore Sheehan on a red carpet and people praised her for being relatable. Meanwhile, other figures who are deemed less important or less valuable by the culture will get attacked for wearing fast fashion.

So can you shed some light on the relationship between fashion and accessibility? How we can be skeptical of companies in a nuanced way? Yeah. I mean, honestly, we're all existing and imperfect systems, systems that need a change, and a lot of us are just doing the best that we can, and when we know better, do better. So one of the things that comes with wealth, and it shouldn't be like this, but you're able to afford things that are not made in such exploitative ways. So Lana Del Rey easily could, with her wealth, purchase something that is not utilizing like

child labor, et cetera, or really exploitative to the environment. Sustainable fashion and things that are made sustainably and ethically usually have a higher price tag, and we're still working our way towards some sort of middle grounds. Like, okay, there's a $300 shirt that's Fairtrade certified, et cetera, amazingly made, and then there's a $5 shirt from Sheehan. There has to be some sort of middle ground that we're working our way to, but I also get really frustrated as a sustainability influencer or whatever you want to call it, because I know all of the people who are telling people to buy two shirts that we're getting

sent all of this expensive clothing for free. And I really wish people would talk about that when they're doing their clothing hauls and like the zero way sustainable bloggers are showing off their like beige outfits and telling people to buy because that's not accessible to the everyday person. And how can you have like a wardrobe of 50, like $300 shirts and dresses and think that that's accessible to the everyday person? Even for me, I know there's some sustainability bloggers who were like, I get so mad when H&M has a conscious collection, it's greenwashing, but that might be the first step for someone

who is lower income and that's just all that they can afford. So even if that company is, you know, doing it for whatever reason, if someone is trying their best to make the best decision that they can, that's accessible to them. Like shame the systems, not the individual. Yes. That kind of reminds me of like the cult of skincare, which we did an episode on in that like the problem is really bottom up in that like with skincare, we need to normalize aging and then with like fast fashion, we need to normalize people expressing themselves

through their fashion in their own way, however they can, rather than like needing to follow trends. Younger Gen Z is like normalizing this like mix and match like vibe of style and that like, that's why I think everyone is like so confused. They're like low-waisted, high-waisted and Gen Z is like, it literally does not matter, sweetie. Just like pick a vibe and like flow and everyone's like, okay. We were talking a little bit earlier about how fast fashion brands are kind of like cults

in the sense that those at the top are trying to make people who are struggling with money and self-esteem feel like they're living their best life and that they look great and they look like a Kardashian, but that actually just leaves consumers feeling emptier. There's obviously a lot of physical exploitation, financial exploitation. Meanwhile, those at the top are profiting. Do you think all of that is a fair take and what do you think are the cultiest aspects of fast fashion brands? In my book, I talk about this in the last chapter and I'm so glad that I stumbled across

this research. There is some work by some neuroscientists to understand why fast fashion is so appealing to us as consumers. And it's because when we see something that we like and it's really expensive, our brain does this like cost-benefit analysis that usually will say, okay, even though I really like it, it's really expensive because that expensive price tag, unless you're like insanely rich, will just, it outweighs. So it kind of causes pain when you see something that's really expensive and usually it takes

you time to think about it. And then if you spend on it, you're like, you feel guilty. And then you feel bad, you feel guilty. And then fast fashion, it just kind of shortcuts our brain and then all of a sudden it's a plus plus instead of having any negative. So you're like, I want it and it's a bargain. This is the best thing in the world. So then you get this instant gratification and they were looking at our brains and the

way that we process that, it just like lights up so much. And then you kind of crash afterwards because like you said earlier, it's that instant gratification. So that's why it really is a cult. They're playing with our brain and our brain chemistry. And that's why we keep buying and buying and buying and buying because it's kind of like an addiction and it's just lighting up our reward centers in our brain and it's pretty messed up. It's just compounded with like how easy it is to buy fast fashion on social media.

It's like, you get that dopamine spike when you see the post. Now you get a double dopamine spike when you buy the thing you saw in the post. It really is just like infiltrating your brain chemistry. Yeah. It's like that same addiction that you get when like scrolling on TikTok and now like they combine it with buying things and then you now see people doing like a sheen haul. Like this is my haul and people order like bags and bags of clothing and then we're all just like addicted to it.

Yes. It really is this promise that like you're going to feel better. You're going to look better. You're going to be living your best life thriving. But then dopamine doesn't last long in the body, you know? So what do you think is the difference between a brand that is cult followed in a metaphorical way and a brand that is closer to full blown cult? One brand would be like House of Sunny.

So they in the last like year or two just kind of started taking over Instagram by working with all these like sustainable influencers and other influencers and they have really cute clothes. And I'm just on their Instagram right now and it's grown to like over 600,000 followers. Their dresses are super recognizable, but thankfully they also are made relatively sustainable. So that's also really great. I think another example would be those really cute bags, the Telfees, the Telfar bags, which are black owned, which was really cool.

And they kind of, I don't know, so they started because this black owned designer thought, you know, black folks should be buying luxury bags from people that actually care about them. Oh my gosh, I'm looking at them. They're so cute. Yeah. I have mine sitting right next to me and like they're really in terms of luxury bags are not really that expensive.

And I think that was like a really cool underground movement. And then suddenly like AOC had one of the bags and it was really cool. So I think something else, there's a study by Futera, which is, is this like sustainable marketing agency? People are also motivated to buy things that are sustainable or socially good. So that's a way to fight against fast fashion because house of sunny, they got really big because they're cute. They have great clothes that are on trend, but they have slow release collections and

they're made sustainably the Telfee, the Telfee bag. It started to build this cult like underground following because it's a black owned designer and they're trying to like stick it to the man to all of these other, you know, luxury bad companies that don't necessarily care about black people and the planet. So those are some brands that I think it's kind of cool. Everybody loves an underground or a little underdog story. And then other brands, I don't know, we're kind of seeing it change, but I think urban outfitters had like a chokehold on the nation for a really long time and they still kind

of do in some ways, but it seems like it's even cooler for Gen Z to thrift shop now and other ways. And then I want to watch that Netflix documentary on Abercrombie because I love what you're saying and like speaking positively about some of these cult followed brands and more innocent, more metaphorical way, because when we, you know, go to critique cultishness in the culture, it can get easy to start feeling really cynical. And whenever you talk about anything positively, people will be like, you're being too easy on them.

You know, it's so easy just to see the negative and to write off everything good as culty. But I think you're right that it is culty in a good way for the brands that you support to reflect something about who you are. You know, you want your objects to say something positive about the person that you are. And if you like find a community in this underground brand that is really doing good things, then that is, you know, one example of something being cultish for good. Yeah. And it's important to like mention how like the same reason people join bad cults is the

same reason people join good cults is because something resonated with them. And that made them feel better to be like a part of it. You have such an easy going tone in the way that you speak about things is so positive. And I love how I'm seeing a shift in a lot of environmentalists about that. Like instead of being panic that the world is going to end, people are like, what can we do? Yeah, that's kind of something that's happening in the climate movement right now. People are focusing on the concept of radical imagination.

So not just being able to identify the systems that we want to dismantle and things we want to change, but also like really being rooted in what world we're trying to build. So it's really nice and that helps us be really optimistic to think about, okay, here's what an equitable and great future would look like. Because I think even though I wrote a book about dismantling, I think, okay, once you understand what those systems are, you can spend more of your time thinking about hope for the future. Yes.

Oh my God. I say this all the time, but I don't think skepticism and optimism have to be in conflict. In fact, they shouldn't be. And some of the smartest people that have ever lived, including the astronomer Carl Sagan, have scored off the charts when given personality tests in both open-mindedness and conscientiousness. And it's important to have that balance. Okay, we're going to ask one more question and then we're going to play a cheeky game. What is your advice, either practical shopping advice, emotional advice, spiritual advice,

for people who feel pressured to constantly keep up with the cult of fast fashion, but don't want to find themselves in a get the fuck out level cult situation? Yeah, support your local artisans if you can. If there's someone that's making some really cute tie-dye shirts in your neighborhood and I know I live in Santa Barbara, so there's a lot of that kind of tie-dye stuff going on. But if you can, or even if it's like a friend of yours has a little side hustle where they're remaking shirts and screen printing on them, that's how to start your own little mini revolution.

I think what's really in right now for Gen Zers is getting items that are unique, just unique to them. So like, you know, mend and repair. I know a lot of people who are learning how to sew and make their own clothes. So that's the way that you can, you know, be on trend. And even if there's something that you really, really want, like figuring out how you can make it or supporting an artisan who's able to make it, and then also going to your local thrift store, like the gentrification of thrifting usually happens when people go to thrift stores

that are not in their neighborhood and they buy up all the cool stuff and sell it online. But if you specifically go to your local thrift store, that's a way to, you know, get those clothing out of the landfill and keep it in use for longer, make it into something special, learn how to sew, learn how to mend. I know I sound like a hippie, but that's how to, you know, do that. No, you sound like, honestly, you sound like what my mom was doing when I was like a kid. Like my mom would like sew my things and like fix them. And then like in South America, we would like idolize like American fashion.

But then what you would just do, because you didn't have access to like international shipping as easily. So what people would do is they would like make their own things out of what they had and base it on like a style. And so like my mom knows how to sew. And I think that is correlated to the pandemic to there was this like return to old school crafting and sort of like homesteader vibes, which can sometimes get culty. But it also, I also want to mention like, yeah, you get a dopamine spike when you buy

something cheap and stylish online, but no dopamine spike is more satisfying than when you find something really cute at Goodwill. I just thought they're all that out there. Yeah. I had a moment. So this is like in middle school, so it was a long time ago, but that's when Juicy Couture tracksuits were like really in and they were so expensive. And I found one at a Goodwill.

I found a pink Juicy Couture tracksuit. I remember I almost started crying and like, that was the moment for you. That was the moment. That's when I became an environment. We're going to play a classic sounds like a cult game, which is would you rather? And this is fast fashion edition. So the first question is, would you rather have to work as the head of marketing for fashion Nova for the next five years or have to join Scientology for the next five years?

Stop it. This is a hard one. Okay, I would join Scientology to infiltrate, to write a book that is an expose. So I would not be going to this actively. I would be there to expose Scientology. You and I are of the same ilk. Whenever someone experiences something awful, my brain is instantly like, it's fine, you'll get a book deal.

I was thinking more so I would go like fashion Nova and then try to change it from within. That's what I was thinking, but, but I love you little authors. You guys are like, I'm going to write about my experience. I mean, I guess I could do stand up about my experience, but Scientologists scare me. Like Nora Efron said, everything is copy. Okay, question number two, would you rather have to only wear forever 21 in all the Instagrams you post of yourself over the next year or have to dress like a fundamentalist Mormon in all the Instagrams you post of yourself over the next year?

This is so like, okay, um, um, I would rather wear forever 21 that I got from the thrift store because you didn't clarify. We love a loophole, girly. Okay, would you rather have to work in a Sheehan factory for the next three months or have to live in a house full of Q and on conspiracy theorists for the next three months? Oh my God. I would rather, I don't know. I think the Q and on now, yeah, I think the Q and on.

I would probably be there with a Q and honors. That just goes to show how bad those factories are. Yeah, they're pretty bad. Would you rather have to brand nexium leader Keith Ranieri's initials into your flesh? I have to brand or have to brand the H&M logo into your flesh. I would do H&M ironically, like as an act of protest, yeah. Like Jane Fonda and your red coat, eat your heart out. We're branding over here.

Yeah, I don't want Keith Ranieri's initials anywhere near me or even on like a piece of paper. No. Okay, last question. Would you rather only have to shop at fast fashion brands for the rest of your life or never be able to buy another piece of clothing ever again? I would probably do fast fashion brands and I would try to get their conscious collection if I could.

Because you're a fashionista. You love fashion at the end of the day. Like you said earlier, it's all about doing the best that you can. Balance will always protect you from the lure of a cult because cults are extreme. Yes. And if you're not extreme, you won't fall prey to them. Delightful. This was glorious in every possible way.

If folks want to keep up with you in your work, where can they do that? Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Green Girl Lia or Intersectional Environments List and check out my book with the same name, The Intersectional Environmentalist. So we've come to the part of cultiness. Do you think, Amanda, that's, oh my gosh, I almost said she in. Do you think that fast fashion is a lure of your life, a watch your back, or get the fuck out level cult? It's so tough because my biased instinct honestly tells me that it's a get the fuck

out because of the damage that it's doing to young minds, young self-esteem, the planet, the physical well-being of the people making these clothes. But then again, I don't want to be one of those people shaming others for buying fast fashion and getting up on my fucking high horse and being like, shop at Reformation only. Yeah. I think you get at a good point where it's like, it's not the shopping and the fast fashion that's like the cult almost.

It's like the influencers really, that's where it's the danger. It's the influencers and the companies. We don't want to sensationalize like everything on this podcast, obviously like fast fashion. I think it's like a watch your back. I agree. Like so many tiers because you have the cult of fast fashion itself, which is this mode of manufacturing and marketing clothing. And then you have the individual companies and then there are the influencers that the

companies employ to do their bidding. So it really is like the ultimate pyramid scheme in a way. But I think for me, the reason it's not a get the fuck out level cult is because there is no exit costs. Really it's like exit benefits, right? If you stop buying the clothes, you're going to save money, but this is a mind fuck. Yeah, it is a mind fuck because it's also like, we're not talking about one brand. We're not talking about shopping.

We're talking about this trend, this complex, this industry, yeah, this way of making and selling clothes, which is like very unique to this very moment in society. Like it's never happened before in this way to this degree. Yeah, totally. But it, this, this topic in general is a mind fuck because when you talk about cultishness as much as we do, you start to forget what you're even talking about. I know we've recorded so many episodes this week. Like I feel like sometimes we need to like take a break between episodes because I have

to separate myself. Just to like reset and remember what our thesis even is. And like when I think about it, I think like a cult is not necessarily a group of people who gather in person. It's not even necessarily a group of people at all. It could be an ideology that people assemble around. Yeah, I think that's what this, I think that's what this episode falls under is like the ideology of fast fashion is a watch your back love cult.

Exactly. Well, that's our show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds like a cult is created, hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and Issa Medina. Kate Elizabeth is our editor. Our podcast studio is all things comedy and our theme music is by Casey Colb.

Thank you to our intern slash production assistant, Naomi Griffin, subscribe to sounds like a cult wherever you get your podcasts, so you never miss an episode. And if you like our show, feel free to give us a rating and review on Spotify or Apple podcasts and check us out on Patreon at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.