Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Fraternities & Sororities

Episode Date: July 6, 2021

“Why does it feel like everything that has to do with tradition is actually a cult?” Such is one of our many musings from this week’s episode on the “cult” of Greek life. We call it “hazing” and “pledges” rather than “brainwashing” and “cult members,” but aren’t these highly exclusive groups with unchallenged power imbalances and bizarre often dangerous (even deadly) rituals—whose culture of “paying your dues” bleeds into the rest of American society—not low-key just a deep-rooted “cult” dressed up as a socially accepted college “experience?” With the help of listener call-ins, insightful facts and figures, and Isa’s own personal sorority stories, that is just the question we’re aiming to answer...

My name is Marenza and I was in SEDA at a school in the UC system and I would say the cultiest thing about my sorority was that we made an old overweight or less than attracted girls working in the kitchen during recruitment. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern-day cults we all follow. I'm Esa Medina, comedian and documentarian, and I'm Amanda Montell, an author and linguist. Today's Cult of the Week is fraternities and sororities and we're gonna talk all about it to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? So, what's up? This conversation I have really been looking forward to because you unexpectedly

were in a sorority which continues to blow my mind. I literally had never even met someone who was in Greek life until I like dated this frat star when I was 26. It was a phase. I was in a sorority and it is unexpected. I mean, I wasn't very involved, but I very much thought that was like the only way to get invited to parties and be social at school. Yeah, I get it. No, I don't actually judge you. It's just if only you listeners could see Esa. She's like this artsy documentary filmmaker girl. You've always got on like four levels of knits and like tortoiseshell glasses. It's just hard for me to imagine you in like a Lily Poulitzer paisley sundress. LMAO. I had one Lily Poulitzer dress my first year of college and then I was

like, what the fuck am I doing? So, I went into the group and I was like, oh, I want to do this because I want to go to the parties. I want to meet new people because like at the end of the day, when the fuck else are you going to be able to like experience something like that? Right? It's a once in a lifetime experience, but then I met a lot of my best friends from college in classes and extracurricular activities and I took a fat step back my second year of college from the sorority from the sorority. I didn't get like sucked into it. So, you had, you were able to have one foot in and one foot out. That's key. Yeah, because I was like, I don't want to let myself fall prey to like how catty or how clicky it can be. It's also so toxic because one sorority will

be like, no, that was just your experience. I want to be like, shut the fuck up because I know your pledge class was catty and clicky too. Okay, so to get into this discussion of the cultishness of fraternities and sororities, I found this scary story online. It's a true story, a cult story, and I wanted to tell it to you. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay. The year was 1959, and there was this Southern California cult that conducted a cruel and unusual brainwashing ceremony. This cult was only for men and men who wished to be a part of the clan had to prove their devotion by ingesting a nightmarish buffet of pig's head, fresh brains, and raw liver. So, there was one recruit, this guy named Richard Swanson, who in his attempts to complete the

challenge kept vomiting up this nasty concoction, but obviously desperate for acceptance. He eventually forced it down promptly, though. A hulking mass of liver became wedged in his windpipe, and he choked on it. The other cult members started freaking out. They eventually called the paramedics. Richard Swanson was rushed to the hospital, but he was dead on arrival. And yet, no charges were ever brought because this was not, in fact, a cult. This was a fraternity at USC called Kappa Sigma, and this was not a brainwashing ceremony. It was just one of countless hazing rituals that are often far more disgusting, outlandish, and deadly, involving more vomit and other bodily fluids than anything you'll find in an actual cult. Wait, so they- the only reason

they weren't charged is because they are fraternity instead of a quote-unquote cult? So, uh, okay, that's an interesting question. Um, I wasn't there. You weren't there in 1959? I was about to say your skin looks amazing. Or someone who was born in the 30s. Um, yeah, I mean, I- I don't think in 1959 that hazing had been officially outlawed yet. I think now it's illegal in 38 states, but what I will say is this, fraternities and sororities have always seemed to me like the primo example of a group that just has such a long tradition in the U.S. and is so culturally accepted that despite the fact that it is so obviously cult-y, we just don't think of it as that, and we look the other way. For example, okay, I don't, like, actually mean to compare fraternities

and sororities to a group like Nexium, or maybe I kind of do. I don't know. I mean, a point that I often like to bring up is that the reason why, say, the Nexium followers who'd had their skin branded were written off immediately as these sort of like brainwashed, mind-controlled, desperate women was because the second the press caught wind of Nexium, started covering it, and labeled these women cult followers or members of a cult, they were instantly relegated to a subclass of human, right? Like, it made it easier for the public to distance themselves from these people to not think of them as victims. Like, this guy, Richard Swanson, who died in this hazing ritual, he was probably mourned big time, you know? Like, oh no, like, what a loss of young life.

It wasn't questioned of like, how could he join this group? They were just like, oh, you wanted to join a group of like fellow classmates and have fun and drink. Cultural normativity just has so much to do with whether something is considered a cult versus an accepted religion or social group. Like, just think of the language, pledge and hazing versus cult follower and brainwashing. That's the funny thing is that, like, when I was in college and I was dating a guy who was pledging his fraternity at the time, he would have to get up at like six in the morning or in the middle of the night to leave to go to the house to do pledging things. And I was like, what did you guys have to do today? Because he would come back exhausted and destroyed. And I

was like, what did you have to do? And he was like, I can't tell you, like I literally can't. It's just pretty exceptional because if behaviors like that were to happen in the context of an alternative religion or an alternative sociopolitical group, we would be freaking out. We would be calling the authorities. Yeah, why does it feel like everything that like has to do with tradition is actually a cult? That is a wonderful question. Hello, this is Charlie from Tustin. The thing about being in a fraternity, so much like a cult, it's the hive of mind. You go to any college in the world, the top tier universities, you get a bunch of fraternity brothers together. They're going to do some of the stupidest things you've ever even conceived of. And there's something

about that about putting a bunch of people together, get them all excited, get them all riled up. They just become stupid. I mean, I feel like these groups aren't held accountable, one, because obviously they're more traditionally accepted, but two, because the people who would be holding them accountable are part of the group, right? So you have male deans who were in a fraternity when they were growing up, and you have male presidents of the university. And then how are they going to hold a group accountable that they themselves were in? That's ultimately why I think it's like the deepest rooted cult in America, because it runs all the way up to politicians. And it's still not seen as a cult. For sure. It's like these

boys clubs. I don't know. I mean, like how is something not a cult when over 50 deaths, like a systematic pattern of deaths have been linked to hazing over the past few decades? I don't know. All these dozens of states have outlawed hazing for obvious reasons. And the universities will officially tell parents like, oh, we don't have hazing on our campuses. Hazing is illegal. It's like such bullshit. Do I even need to say that it's bullshit? No. Everyone knows that it's bullshit. Like I know particularly in Virginia, UVA is in Charlottesville, Virginia, which is technically the South. So you have so many traditions, but you also have a lot of people from the Northeast to go to UVA. And they literally talk about it. They're like,

hazing is legal, hazing isn't allowed. But what happened by the time I got to fourth year, those same guy friends who wouldn't open up about a single detail of what their hazing practices entailed, then would get tipsy at a senior party and be like, oh yeah, we had to eat a plate of tobacco and trash as one of our hazing rituals. Another thing that they had to do was sit in a room in the basement of a fraternity on a bench with their back straight up for eight hours listening to like punk metal rock music at max volume. That's literally a torture technique. And they like laugh it off as if it's not like this trauma that they then are inflicting on other young men. And then there's also the nerdier fraternities who are like, no, we would never

break the law because we want to run for president. But then their version of hazing is like having to run 10 miles every morning. And like, I'm sorry, that's still torturous for some of us. That would be, I would rather sit in a basement and listen to eight hours of heavy metal. Yeah, it's funny the excuse of like, we don't have hazing because hazing is illegal. It's the same exact excuse that people who work in multi level marketing companies, MLMs will give to defend that their group is not a pyramid scheme. Like, I would never be a part of a pyramid scheme, pyramid schemes are illegal. But if you take that logic, literally one step further, it will become immediately clear that just because something is illegal doesn't mean you're not doing it.

Yeah, hello, weed for everyone before it was legalized. I know, like, I'm not smoking weed. That's impossible. Weed is illegal. Or like, let's say that someone just got caught shoplifting, you catch them in the parking lot with like their pockets full of merchandise. They're like, I could never be shoplifting. Shoplifting is illegal. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I really think it's like institutionalized at this point. I actually did a little research. And 63% of members of the United States cabinet have been members of fraternities and sororities. And 85% of all justices of the US Supreme Court since 1910 have been members of fraternities. Honestly, life in America is just one big fraternity. It really is. It's about

who you know. And I mean, I'm almost four years out of college. And I still see like, my guy friends that were in fraternities only hang out with their guy friends and fraternities get jobs through their guy friends and fraternities. It's this mentality of like, oh, my pledge brother's son needs an internship and I'm going to help him out. Men get opportunities simply because of the fact that they were in a fraternity with another man. Yeah, just even the language of like them calling themselves brothers and sisters. Yeah, the fact that you're expected to care about this legacy for the rest of your life is so sketchy to me. Hi, my name is Josie and I'm from Georgia. To me, the entire premise of Greek life is extremely culty. For sorority rush, you spend

weekends visiting sorority houses and being judged by dozens of girls. And at the end of the long process, you may end up matching with three sororities or you may get none back. Actually, one of my nicest, most genuine friends didn't match with any sororities during the rush process. And it was just so upsetting and almost infuriating. Some of the language that actually repelled me included labels like top tier, mid tier and bottom tier. Even if you were part of a hundred people in this sorority, you were all judged the same based on this unwritten rule of tiers. Wait, but do girls, do girls and sororities get haste? Like what is that whole, what is that whole induction process called again, like rush? Yeah, with rushing, you have to be of a

certain class or you have to be from a certain family, things like that. So women will lie really fucking expensive clothes that they can't afford just so that they can like fit in to this group of people that don't give a fuck about who they are. This brings up an interesting point because it shows how obviously fraternities and sororities play into the worst stereotypes of the gender binary. You know, like women are these frivolous creatures who talk about each other behind each other's backs and just care about pretty clothes and dating and who you know. I literally wore like dresses with flowers on them when I was in a sorority because I thought that's what like was cool because everyone else was doing it. And it's so

fun to me because like looking back at it, there was this like self awareness at UVA specifically because that's my only experience I can speak on, but there was the self awareness of how culty it was. And because everyone at UVA tries to pretend they're ultra cool, they would make fun of themselves almost for being in Greek life. They were like, yeah, I'm like in Greek life. It's so dumb. But when you look back at it, you were still doing all of the rituals. You were paying the money. You were going to chapter. That's something else that I found particularly culty at least looking back at it now. You have to pay money to be in the group. But then you get charged a fee if you miss chapter, which is like the weekly meeting on Sundays. And I also thought

it was odd that chapter always happened on Sundays because that's kind of like traditionally like God's day. And then if you wanted to leave the sorority, you also had to pay a fee. What are they using all that money for? Bro, that's what I'm saying. I don't know because we didn't get free meals. Like we had this thing about fraternities and sororities is that they are so mysteriously prestigious and so accepted that you're just willing to accept all of this bullshit. Yeah. And like we knew we were like, where does our money go? Ha ha ha. We would make a joke out of it because we were like, well, we don't care. We're having fun. I mean, they did throw parties. We had a parents formal, which was really dope. Like you go to like a fancy ballroom that's rented

out for you. It includes a meal. It is amazing to me how robust the culture and language of fraternities and sororities are. And you pick it up so quickly, like little and big, all of the everything has a special term. It's kind of, it's impressive. Yeah. And it's so normalized. Yeah. I mean, it's objectively not normal to wear robes and say code words in Latin that you don't even understand. I literally know guys who are branded on their ass. Like, and that's gonna stay there forever. The fuck? And it's not even like they were like, oh no, I had to do this crazy thing. Like it was a part of belonging. Yeah. And it's interesting because when fraternity culture is baked into the entire university and even beyond the university to donors and, you know,

people who are important to the financial success of the school, it's like, it's almost like they're hidden hierarchies. They literally are hidden hierarchies. There are like secret societies within fraternities and across sororities. Like at UVA, there was this dumbass group called Thursdays and it was a drinking sorority, but it had girls in only the top tier sororities. Thursdays was like a multi sorority drinking group. When they were like tapped, they got to go to an evening where they all drank until they literally threw up. Oh my. It's also so stupid because it's a secret society that everyone knows about. Uh-huh. I do think that there is something about Americans craving for hierarchies and climbing ladders and being inducted into exclusive

groups. So obsessed with exclusivity. We are. Like we really are. We love the idea of accessing spaces that other people can't because it makes us seem more successful. I don't think, I mean, there is a reason why groups from Nexium all the way to fraternities and sororities and so many groups in between have these secret societies within the group itself. There's a reason why these things are more popular in the US than anywhere else. It like speaks to our values, you know? Yeah, it's because we lack culture. Yeah, honestly. Wait, wait. It's because you lack culture. I'm Colombian. When guys and fraternities, particularly, finally started opening up later in college, like as seniors or fourth years, they would be like telling me what

they had to do when they got hazed. They were like laughing about it like it wasn't problematic. And that's dangerous because if you're not recognizing your own traumas, you're literally perpetuating these traumas onto other people. And they'll probably be perpetuating the same culture in their job. Exactly. It's like the whole idea of like, if you didn't suffer earlier on in your job, then you don't deserve a raise because in my day, we got paid even less. I mean, there's a reason why pay your dues is literally an idiom in the English language. It's what you have to do in a sorority fraternity and it's what you have to do in corporate life and in just life as an American. Yeah, I never even thought about that. Greek life culture. Like we literally pay dues. Yeah. Which, wow.

Hi, my name is Esther. I'm calling from Fort Myers, Florida. And the most culty thing about being in a sorority has to have been the inductions. We dressed in white ropes, were blindfolded, had to kneel, get up and pray and do all those things. And then you learned a secret handshake. It doesn't get more culty than that. So I wonder if you think there's a difference in danger between sororities versus fraternities. What was the cultiest part about being in your sorority? Oh, that's a good question. I mean, when I think of the cultiest parts of my sorority, I think like every girl ultimately ends up looking the same even if they don't look the same at all because they start dressing the same. They all

wear makeup the same. They straighten their hair and you saw that across campus when I went to college. I wanted to like dress like a New Yorker because I was like, I'm going to be an adult and I'm finally going to wear cute clothes. And then at like six months in, I quickly realized it wasn't cool to wear a leather jacket. Yeah. I was like, oh, shit, it's cool to wear like lululemon leggings and a big t-shirt with your sorority print on top of it. Every girl starts dressing like that. And I thought that was culty, but not in a dangerous way. Did you all have chance? Like you've seen that YouTube video of the sorority chance that are culty. It's like, we are truly sisters bound by loyalty. Yeah, those aren't even culty to me though. Oh my god,

but chanting literally has like a physiological effect. Okay. But that being said, I can't speak for like all universities, but we, we did them ironically. You know what I mean? Like we were making fun of ourselves. If we ever did them, it was like at a pregame before we took a shot as a joke, but we never actually chanted like that. And I feel, yeah. In saying this, I feel like sororities are less culty than fraternities because I wasn't hazed. I wasn't called a pledge. The only slightly more shady cult element to me was the fact that you have to pay fees to not show up to events. You have to pay a fee to not go to a date function that you paid for. You have to pay a fee if you don't show up to chapter and you have to pay a fee if your dues are late. And honestly, it was kind

of hard to like leave the sorority. I think is the funny part. So for you, it was like physical conformity and light financial exploitation. Yes. So what cult category do you think fraternities and sororities fall into? Live your life, watch your back, or get the fuck out. We've been talking back and forth about sororities and fraternities. I don't think they're at the same level. Okay. I think having been in a sorority, I know I can only speak for my experience. I think it's a watch your back because that's exactly what I did. Same thing with SoulCycle. I'm always watching my back. I think your experience really speaks to the fact that you can have a healthy sorority experience because in a truly dangerous cult, you have to

put all your eggs in that basket. Your social life, your money is tied up in it. They literally will not let you be a part of any other group. But if you're able to, as I sometimes say, diversify your social and spiritual portfolio instead of just fully investing in this one group, then I think you can keep yourself pretty safe because you have outside influences. Exactly. But I think that if you are in a fraternity and you have no friends outside of your fraternity, and then you graduate and you still have no friends outside of the fraternity and you see it as only a positive experience, and you'll defend it to the death, and you'll defend it to the death, sweet cheeks, you need to get the fuck out. You're in a fucking cult. I agree. I was just

going to label both groups get the fuck out, but I kind of agree what you're saying. I mean, I think it is incredibly cringy and unhelpful for society to have these extremely binary groups that play into the worst stereotypes of men and women. And I think that just the fact that the worst stereotypes of men are more physically dangerous makes fraternities a get the fuck out level. And like you were saying, sororities a watch your back level. We went on this Wikipedia black hole the other day looking up all the Greek life deaths over the years. It's pretty fun. I recommend it. But out of the dozens and dozens of deaths, only a couple of them were in sororities where women, it was like all the guys. That's probably because women weren't

allowed to go to college until like, at least at UVA until the early 1970s. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So it's not it's not that women are less deadly. It's just, you know, like give us a chance. Yeah, equality for all. And I do think there are caveats to that. Like, if you graduated from college and you're not thinking about it anymore, and you don't analyze it. Alright, maybe you should still just keep watching your back. I don't know though, because my dad spent his teenage years in one of the most notorious cults of all time. But he resisted and he has gotten out pretty scot-free. I mean, he doesn't have a lot of trauma. That said, Synanon, that group was 100% a get the fuck out level, you know? Oh, so it can be get the fuck out level, but you can like get

the fuck out. Like you still can get the fuck out. Exactly. Yeah, you're right. That's our show for this week. Thanks for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds like a cult was created, produced and edited by Amanda Montell and Issa Medina. Our theme music is by Casey Colt and our production assistant slash intern is Courtney Archer. And if you liked this episode, feel free to give us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. I think the bottom line is hazing is being forced to do something that you don't want to do. And like they're saying, I want to do it because I want to become tight with my brothers. But you know how else you can become tight with your brothers? Have a sleepover and talk about

your secrets. Yeah.