Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Free Birthers

Episode Date: November 5, 2024

Munch on some ice chips and PUSHHHHH (sorry) play on this week's episode, in which we dare to apply our culty analysis to the ever-polarizing "free birther" community. Free birthing is a controversial catch-all term in and of itself, generally describing a style of medically unassisted birth that has turned into not just a movement but possibly a cult—why? Because this is America, and if something has the potential to turn culty, then it probably will! Doula (and loyal listener of the pod) Hehe Stewart joins for a discussion of power dynamics, misinformation, and why so-called free birthers have been pitted against the traditional medical establishment in a way that puts everyoneeee in danger. Trying our best to bring both cheekiness and empathy to this very casual and low-stakes discussion (joke). Love you culties!!! Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @amanda_montell @reesaronii @chelseaxcharles Watch the new season of Sounds Like A Cult on YouTube! To subscribe to Amanda's new Magical Overthinkers podcast, click here :) Further reading: Listen to the Whispers before They Become Screams: Addressing Black Maternal Morbidity and Mortality in the United States Racism During Pregnancy and Birthing: Experiences from Asian and Pacific Islander, Black, Latina, and Middle Eastern Women When Giving Birth, Opting to Go It Alone Insights into the U.S. Maternal Mortality Crisis: An International Comparison Born Free: Unassisted Childbirth in North America Just ‘birth’: the phenomenon of birth without a healthcare professional She Wanted a ‘Freebirth’ at Home. When the Baby Died, the Attacks Began Thank you to our sponsors!  Head to Squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, go to https://www.squarespace.com/CULT to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Go to the App Store or Google Play store and download the FREE Ibotta app to start earning cash back and use code CULT.  Earn points by paying rent right now when you go to joinbilt.com/CULT. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com/cult.

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you're ready to launch, go to https colon slash slash www.squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Earn points by paying rent right now when you go to join built.com slash cult. That's J O I N B I L T dot com slash cult. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you join built.com slash cult to start earning points with your rent payments today. Thank you to our sponsor, mint Mobile. To get this new customer offer and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com slash Colt.

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host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Hey, occulties. It is your host Amanda here. Today is election day. Oh my jugology goodness. And this isn't a political podcast, but I do call Donald Trump a cult leader sometimes. Anywho, I just felt like I would be absolutely remiss not to encourage y'all to vote today, especially considering the topic of today's episode has to do with women's health and safety and bodily autonomy. If any of those things are important to you, I would encourage you to make sure your vote reflects that. So, yeah, these are polarizing culty times and I'm sure people will be like, shut up and get to the culty analysis.

But yeah, it's election day. Please, please, please, if you live in the United States and can vote, please vote. There is bad data out there too that can get out and sometimes when you speak out about something that is absolutely true, for example, women having the right to eat and drink and labor, we know that that is evidence-based, we know people should be allowed to do that. It can even feel a little cold to you to say like, if your doctor is telling you don't do this, they're wrong. It feels weird to do that. It can even feel a little culty to say like, if your doctor is telling you don't do this, they're wrong. It feels weird to do that. It feels weird to say that a doctor might be giving outdated advice. I had no idea.

That fact just blew my mind. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Amanda Montell, author of the books, Cultish and The Age of Magical Overthinking. And I'm Reese Oliver, Sounds Like a Cult's coordinator. Every week on the show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist. From purity culture to peloton, to trying to answer the big question.

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live-your-life? A watch your back? Or a get-the-fuck-out? After all, cultishness, cultish influence, culty rituals, culty culture, it falls along a continuum these days from groups that are for sure fringy, weird. I feel like the word weird has taken on new meaning in this people's landscape.

But anyway, fringy, but relatively harmless, all the way to quite destructive, even if the most dangerous groups might not necessarily look like the satanic, barrobed, compound cult you may have seen in documentaries and true crime media. So that's what we're here to discuss on this show, the cultish spectrum, the cults we all follow, and today we're talking about a topic that makes us both a little nervous because it's about motherhood. And we're both childless cat ladies and dog ladies, okay? No, no erasure.

Childless pet ladies. Childless pet ladies, but are invested in the rights and bodies of women and anyone who can give birth. Jesus Christ, here we go. I was born once. You were born once. Oh my God, me too. Isn't that crazy?

My best friend from college is pregnant right now. I got dinner with her the other day and we were like, that fetus, the size of an onion in your womb right now. Like, we all went through that shit. We all grew fucking limbs. We all embryologized. Like, that's so bananas.

It's so trippy. We should get a pat on the back every single day for having grown limbs. Yeah, or not. You know, even people who don't have limbs, you get a pat on the back for having grown any body part. Kite So true. It took me a long time to grow all of my body parts. Fun little fact about me, I was born 10 weeks premature and thus was in the NICU for quite a long time. So needless to say, medical intervention and having a

hospital birth saved my life and my mother's life. So that definitely gives me an interesting perspective heading into this because I'm also a woman. You care about women having good experiences. Yeah, me too. Me too. Me too. Me too. Also fun fact about you. I don't know if there's like a preemie complex, but you're so precocious. I feel like you're like premature. Let me show you about my emotional capabilities. Thank you. Again, a reminder for those listening for the first time or who are new here, Reese

is 21. Okay. Today we're talking about the Cult of Free Birthers, all right? And this is a much requested topic. It's a can that I've kicked down the path of Sounds Like a Cult for many years because it is so fraught and it is so sensitive. And we just, we want to state a sort of, not a disclaimer, but a note, a content warning, a sort of like openhearted word to all of you listening that we really wanna create a balance of skepticism and empathy, interrogation and trust in this conversation. We wanna have a good faith conversation. We wanna remain transparent about our lack of expertise when it comes to

the birth process, while at the same time expressing a genuine interest and investment in understanding this oftentimes culty conflict between the traditional medical establishment and the free birther movement as it has been somewhat controversially termed. So I wanted to state that early on. That's a sentiment that reflects, I think what Reese and I both think and feel about this. And the reason that we finally decided to do this topic is because today's special guest who we're excited for you to hear from, he, he Stewart, she's a doula. She slid into our DMS,

bravely and generously suggesting that we do this topic offering to be our interlocutor. We are recording this in the summer of 2024, by the way, not sure when it will be out. Anyway, we both we both were feeling nervous going in because we're like, we don't really know her stance on this subject matter. But we were pleasantly surprised by the direction that the conversation went in. So we hope you stick around for that. And of course, for our verdict at the end of the episode. But before we get into all that, Reese, do you want to kick us off with a little bit of history, just a bit of background about what free birthing even means?

just a bit of background about what free birthing even means. Why I would love to. And see, post that interview, I feel a little trepidatious about using the term free birth because it feels like such an umbrella term now. So for those of you who are unfamiliar with the term free birth is kind of the catchier name for the process of unassisted childbirth. Not all women who opt for unassisted childbirth are fully behind the sentiments and values spread by the free birth movement, and some even reject the label entirely. It's a whole spectrum, we'll get into it. But for the purposes of this episode, the terms unassisted childbirth, home birth, free birth are probably all going to be used interchangeably at times. Unassisted childbirth began rising in popularity in the United States and the United Kingdom in the early 2000s.

Have you ever heard of the, I mean, this is before your time, but have you heard of this documentary, I think it's on Netflix, called The Business of Being Born? I have not. It's a 2008 documentary that blew the fuck up. And it's one of these documentaries that I think it's important just to acknowledge that documentaries are not investigative journalism all the time. They oftentimes have like a mission or a thesis. They're like a big fat work of cinematic opinion.

But the sort of point of view of this, the business of being born documentary was to kind of like blow the lid off of the profit driven medical establishments approach to delivering babies. And it really blew my fucking mind. I mean, I was 16 and I haven't watched it since then, but that was the first time I ever paid any attention to, you know, maybe some wrongdoing on the part of the medical establishment when it came to people's birth plans. Growing up, I thought like the only way to give birth is to do so in a hospital, munching on ice chips. And I had never thought of anything

else. And then of course, as I got older and started going down YouTube rabbit holes, I of course saw that there was a whole world on the other side of things where women were not only giving birth in like their bathtub at home, but giving birth like in the foamy shoreline waves of the Pacific Ocean. Like there were so many ways to do it. And the whole thing seemed ripe for cultishness.

Anyway, the timeline makes sense that this rise in unassisted birth or free birth really exploded during the early 2000s positioning the culture perfectly to consume a documentary like The Business of Being Born. Oh yes, entirely. So, to get a little more of a technical hold on free birthing, according to Robert Gordon University School of Nursing, Midwifery, and Paramedic Practice, that is a mouthful of a school if you attend there, I am so sorry. Free birth is currently defined as the deliberate decision to give birth without a regulated health care professional. That last part about giving birth without a regulated

healthcare professional is what separates it from a home birth, though doulas or other non-medical birth attendants may or may not be present. According to a BuzzFeed news piece titled Infant Death Sparks a Heated Debate Around the Free Birth Movement, approximately 0.25% of births in the United States are unassisted. I have to wonder how many of those are unassisted on purpose or how many of those statistics are unaccounted for given that they're not being born in hospitals. Fair enough. It's always good to wonder about statistics. I can't believe how low that number is, right? But I guess home births are not included in that statistic. No, that's like unassisted.

Yeah, this is truly like a fringe movement when you look at the data. Whoa, culties, it's the holiday season, which can mean a whole poo poo platter of emotions and things to spend money on. Grocery bills, they can really add up this time of year. But this Thanksgiving, you don't need to stress about food shopping when you use Ibotta because you can earn cash back on all of the things that you were already going to buy.

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No, no, no. Folks engage in unassisted birth for a poo-poo platter of reasons with varying degrees of disdain for traditional natal care. My impression of the sort of stereotypical free birther is that kind of fruitarian new ager. It's giving freely. It's giving freely. It's giving was impregnated by a banana.

But there are oh so many flavors of free birth. In a dissertation titled Born Free, Unassisted Childbirth in North America, Dr. Ricksa Ann Spencer-Fries at the University of Iowa postulated that the free birth movement is the brainchild of a larger combination of ideological frameworks ranging from ecological awareness and sustainability to alternative medicine and homeschooling. So you've got the whole sort of socio-political spectrum. It's complex. There's the point is there's not just one reason to free birth and yet that does not make it less culty.

Yeah, you know, free birth her, you hardly know her is truly what we're getting at. Oh no, we're in a silly little mood today. I guess we're trying to compensate for like the gravity of the subject matter. Yes, don't mistake our lighthearted goofs as any lack of empathy for birthing people, people who have to make very high stakes decisions about the future of their and their child's life, especially in really high stress situations with a lot of different influences and a lot of different flavors of shame coming at you from different angles.

Thank you for that. Yes, as a general note on Sounds Like a Cult, please never mistake our giggles for a lack of empathy. Yeah, that's just a good general note. So yes, as you were mentioning, people choose to free birth for a variety of reasons from a variety of different ideological standpoints. It gets a bit crunchy to all right pipeline as all of our favorite cults tend to. But for this reason, many women who choose unassisted birth wish to completely dissociate from the notion that free birth is radical,

and many of them don't identify with the term free birther at all. One woman interviewed in a study conducted by Ames UK using the relatively new Life World research approach. I learned about this in my healthcare communications class. It's a really cool, like, method of healthcare that's centered around narrative medicine and around the lived experiences of the patient as opposed to more quantitative forms of Observation it's really interesting and one woman in this study conducted with this life-world research approach stated Why is it a controversial topic because to me it's not free birth. It's just birth It didn't feel like it was an unusual decision. It just felt right

it's just birth. It didn't feel like it was an unusual decision, it just felt right. Another said, so my plan was to enter labor and behave instinctively. So if I needed help, I was going to call for help. Free birthing and not wanting to call someone are two very different things. Fair fair fair fair fair. So that Robert Gordon University study that we looked at earlier for that more technical definition of free birth also explored the motives of women who opt into unassisted childbirth and found these three themes to be significant. One, a quest for a safer birth. Two, a discomfort with perceived power imbalances felt in traditional health care settings. This is again where that like life world approach can be helpful. And also rights of self protection Which is something that our guest really talks about a lot is just that autonomy and the right to do what you feel is best

For you. Totally. Well, I think like these motives when stated so sort of soberly like this are beyond Reasonable, right? Like who doesn't want to say for birth who isn't? Uncomfortable with the power imbalances felt in a doctor's office, especially in a culture that is both clinically and relationally so dismissive of women's pain, especially pain felt by women of color. We will get more into maternal mortality rates in a few minutes, but just as an example, one study that we'll link in our show notes titled, Listen to the Whispers Before They Become Screams, reported that black women's maternal mortality is nearly three times that of white women in the US.

Another study titled, Racism During Pregnancy and Birthing, stated, quote, within institutional settings, black women report being ignored and having their experiences of pain dismissed. So this is a massive and layered problem that highlights a very real need for some to take their birthing experiences into their own hands. There is also a very beautifully reported New York Times podcast that I'm sure many listeners have already heard called The Retrievals, which discusses some of these themes in the context of IVF specifically. So I would highly recommend that.

Point is, we all should have a right to self-protection. It's just fascinating and says so much about the American healthcare system. And I'm learning the UK healthcare system in particular, that the movement has been pushed in this cultish direction. Yeah, it's like, aw, people who carry children wanna be treated with respect again, darn. Yeah Yeah, it's like, aw, people who carry children want to be treated with respect again.

Darn. Yeah, and it's like the establishment can't just allow that in a sort of generous, open-minded way. Such division was created and such barriers were put in place that there was kind of no choice but for this to go in a culty direction. Yeah, the study from Robert Gordon University concluded that a lot of these women didn't even particularly enter the process of being a pregnant person intending to free birth or do a home birth, but they found that there were too many structural and relational barriers to access the care that they did want. That other study, from Ames UK, concluded that the birth practices of the participants

in this study are better described as resistance to the biopolitics of public birth systems than intentional birth choices. So that really frames it as more of a rock-and-a-hard-place decision as opposed to something really radical. Continuing that quote, the experience and sensation of birth was described by all participants in a wholly positive way. Participants revealed a knowledge of birth grounded in personal first-hand experience as the responsible agent and actor of birth, which opens up new possibilities for the way we talk about and understand what birth is. Wow. So then, as we've been saying, reasonable enough, where's the cultiness?

I feel like the cultiness emerges from the conflict, from the us versus them that was created between the traditional healthcare establishment and some of the more extreme versions or extreme impressions of free birthing. Oh yeah, for sure. And I think on the flip side, what some of the objection of free birthing. Oh yeah, for sure. And I think on the flip side, what some of the objection to free birthing might stem from is concern for the medical well-being of the baby and the mother. Randy Epstein wrote for the New York Times in When Giving Birth, Opting to Go It Alone, that many doctors strongly object to unassisted childbirth, which like, yeah, they would given that they're the alternative.

Anywho, they cite that 20% of all previously normal pregnancies turn into high-risk situations during the course of labor, making pre-birthings simply too risky. Like I mentioned earlier, a huge red flag is that there are very few statistics on complications related to unassisted childbirth because they are unassisted and that's unaccounted for. So that's spooky. I can't lie. Yeah. And in theory, the fact that data is not being collected is part of the allure. It's like, get out of my fucking business. You will not sense this me. Now, maybe this has to do with like just conditioning by the traditional medical

establishment. In my head, when I hear like, yeah, doctors are resistant to free birthing because it's unsafe and they think that, you know, birth should really happen in a hospital because it's dangerous, et cetera. I think like, oh yeah, well, that just makes perfect rational sense. But then something that our guests brought up today and something that I gleaned from the articles that we read in preparation for this episode that like there are obviously profit incentives. Like you're losing a client if a woman takes her birthing experience into her own hands. That's not to say that a doctor is only interested in helping a woman give birth

to make money, but that is a factor that is worth scrutiny. The other troubling thing we found when looking into the subject matter was that the maternal mortality rate has gone up in general in recent years, including in hospital births. And this fact may be exacerbating the medical mistrust that inspires people to want to pursue a free birth. According to a 2024 piece from the Commonwealth Fund titled insights into the US maternal mortality crisis and international comparison, the US persistently has the highest rate of maternal deaths of any

high income nation. That's a quote. And within the US, the rate is by far the highest for black women. Most of these deaths, said this article, over 80% are likely preventable. I want to read some other highlights from this article and we will link it in our show notes because it's pretty mind blowing. Here's a bullet point. Quote, in 2022, there were approximately 22 maternal deaths I want to read some other highlights from this article and we will link it in our show notes because it's pretty mind-blowing. Here's a bullet point. Quote, in 2022, there were approximately 22 maternal deaths for every 100,000 live births in the US, far above rates for other high-income countries. The US maternal mortality rate was lowest for Asian American women and highest for black

women. It is worth noting that maternal death rates have also increased in Australia, Japan, and the Netherlands, and this was especially true during the height of the pandemic. Nearly two of three maternal deaths in the United States occur during the postpartum period, quoting directly, up to 42 days following birth. But compared to women in the other countries that were studied in this survey, American women were the least likely to have supports

such as home visits and guaranteed paid leave during this critical time. So that correlation was really, really noteworthy. The fact that women don't have like anyone from the hospital or anyone period looking after them, the fact that maternal leave or parental leave is so pitiful in this country, it may not be unrelated to these maternal deaths occurring postpartum. Now, I think all of this data considered creates the perfect recipe for cultishness because first of all, having little faith in the medical establishment

is a classic reason to join a cult, right? Like there were people who joined Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, NXIVM. Like people not trusting traditional doctors, whether they're OBGYNs or psychiatrists is a classic reason for joining one of these alternative groups. But whether or not you're inclined to join like a truly fringy religious or sociopolitical group like that, when the medical establishment is failing, those vulnerable are of course gonna be motivated to do their own thing, which is so valid.

At the same time, where it starts to get a little too cultish for comfort is when power hungry figures in those alternative groups emerge saying to those vulnerable folks that are struggling and hoping for a better way that they and they alone have the solution that will save everyone. And they make no room for questioning in their own way. They make little room for individual choice. And sometimes that dogmatic alternative choice

can yield even worse outcomes than the thing those vulnerable people were trying to flee. And at absolute worst, that is something that's been observed in the free birthing community. Yes. Tragically, when people do turn to alternatives and safety from the medical establishment, that ironically puts them in danger. A 2010 meta-analysis of research on unassisted childbirth conducted by the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology found that planned home births had a three times higher mortality rate for babies, which is wild. And this is, sounds like a cult, and who would we be if we did not bring up one of the biggest

cult leaders in this community, aka one of the worst-case scenarios? One of the biggest names in the free-birthing community, Janet Frazier, had an unassisted birth in 2009 wherein the child unfortunately didn't survive due to an umbilical cord entanglement, which would have been entirely preventable if a medical professional had been present. She has also claimed in the past that she was unwillingly transported to a hospital for an epidural.

These claims have since been rebuked as the claims of cult leaders often are rules for thee but not for me. She asked for the epidural and for the C-section that she received. Yeah, you can learn more about that story in another article, a Daily Beast article by Emily Sugarman we will also link below. Now, going into this episode, I 100% thought that we would just be sitting around for an hour roasting new-agers. That is not at all what happened, and

I am so looking forward to people hearing our interview because it was so much more balanced and even helpful and illuminating than I anticipated. That said, because this sounds like a cold episode, as you mentioned, we do have to sort of enumerate the cultiest aspects of the free birthing movement. First red flag, obviously, is the wholesale rejection of modern health care that can be found among some free birthers. According to the CDC, the Indiana State

Board of Health in 1984 found that the maternal mortality rate in this one particular free birthing religious community in Indiana was 97 times higher than the state average due in part to the lack of prenatal care within the community. So as with most ideologies that transform into cults, it is the subgroups within the group that really get ya. And one of these such subgroups was the Free Birth Society Facebook online community, which garnered a whopping 6,200 members at its peak before it was shut down entirely. Many of these people in this Facebook group documented their labor journeys. They offered advice and support. Lovely little group. It was run by a quote-unquote radical birthkeeping coach, Emily Saldaya.

Some, like science writer Katie Paulson, say that Saldaya is a scammer, shocker. This group was not all sunshine and rainbows and encouragement and advice and fun stuff. There were a lot of comments asking if they should receive medical treatment or supporting medical treatment for other people that were silenced or taken down. A lot of women detailed their tragic stillbirths that might not have occurred if they hadn't joined that Facebook group and been ill-informed by the people in it. So, yes, crazy. Yeah, and you know, just discussing early red flags, taking a cursory glance at this woman, Emily's Instagram, my culty spidey senses immediately tingle

whenever somebody really embraces the word sovereign, which has become this Conspirituallity buzzword and rallying cry over the last five years. And this term sovereign is like prominently featured in her messaging. Also, I just can't get over that when profit and clout driven white folks take a very real need and movement from a vulnerable population and rebranded into a social media cult, that is just such a pattern that I'm seeing here.

In particularly culty corners of the free birthing world like this one. I notice a sort of dogma that you have to flip to our side and follow our ideas and our tenets or else you're an establishment trader that clearly has really high stakes because a fucking stillbirth can result. We'll leave you with one last sentiment from that Daily Beast article detailing the Janet Fraser controversy. The Daily Beast piece said this, free birth offers women a tantalizing vision. Give birth at home, surrounded by loved ones

with the freedom to move and scream and do all the other natural birth things that hospitals keep women from doing while a baby is tearing through them. Listen to your body, free birthers say, and everything will be all right. But everything is not all right. Giving birth is a dangerous and complicated process. That said, there is in theory more than one correct approach, if a perfectly correct approach even exists. And to unpack this cultishness further, we are excited to introduce you to our very special guest,

Heehee Stewart. Here she is. Okay, real talk. I'm a renter. So many of those listening are renters. And it is not a great feeling when you just write those rent checks, it feels like you're setting your money on fire.

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and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com slash Colt. That's mintmobile.com slash Colt. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash Colt. $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three month plan only, speeds lower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. Yihi, thank you so much for joining this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. Could you start by just introducing yourself and your background and why you slid into our DMs and wanted to talk about the subject matter

on the show? Yeah, absolutely. Well, I am a long-term listener, which is why I slid into your DMs, but my background is actually in human development and family studies. I've been a doula for a number of years. I started in 2016 and I teach childbirth education. I have online education and I'm free on all platforms for people to learn how to navigate the hospital system so that they can have a positive hospital birth. It's kind of hard to have a baby in the US with the maternity care system that we have set up currently. Kite Here here! Gio Yes! Could you explain your relationship to the free birth movement? I know you've

kind of just alluded to it and kind of just expand on what the reasons are that someone might think of it as culty or why it might be a good fit for this show particularly. LWX Yeah, absolutely. Kind of the gist of it is a free birth is a birth that happens without medical professionals. That definition can be a little fluid. So for some people, they choose to have something called a birthkeeper or a traditional birth attendant, which this person may have years of experience. They may simply hold space for that person, or they actually may be a medical professional who has left the bedside or has left the system, if you will.

Got it. Could you talk though about why it might tread into culty waters ultimately? Yeah, because while women should have the respect for autonomy, they should absolutely be the ones that are making the decisions for their birth and for their labor experience. There's a lot of misinformation out on the internet and it only takes one bad post or one post

that really kind of hits you hard to change the whole trajectory of your free birth. Now here's what I will say. People who choose a free birth are typically some of the most educated. Unfortunately, the stories that are highlighted in the media are often the ones that go bad. But we see that kind of generally in women's health. It's always the deaths that get highlighted.

It's always the disparities that black and brown and indigenous women face that are a little different than what white women face. Positive free births absolutely do happen. People who choose a free birth typically are very very educated because they do take the responsibility and the onus and they understand that if shit hits the fan, they're the only ones there and they have to kind of manage it. I think a lot of people would be surprised, too, to know that free birthers often do have a plan of transfer. They understand that there are situations that they might want to seek medical help, and I think that part of free birthing also does not get a lot of light. So there's a lot of ways that it can be culty. I think natural birth in general

can kinda tend to be culty because there's so much judgment. There are very clear boundaries of what camp you fall in and to be neutral is really, that's kind of the radical thing. It is like, you can't be in the middle. You can't understand both sides. You have to choose.. I think free birth can absolutely be like that as well. Yeah. I mean, the discourse surrounding birth, parenthood, motherhood in general is so fucking

fraught. And I think people can feel so vulnerable and so threatened for any number of reasons, even the most privileged people who have the most resources at their disposal, that it could lead you to a place where you're making a decision, but you can't make that decision casually. You're pushed into a camp, you're pushed into a culty corner of this culture

and forced to justify and do mental gymnastics to defend your choice and to defend the other people who've made the same choice or a similar choice. And probably at that point there's infighting and like, it really does create the conditions for cultishness. And I do at the end of the day blame the patriarchy, but we also have to take responsibility. So there's a lot going on. I grew up the daughter of scientists.

So I grew up with almost like unquestioned reverence of the medical establishment. Starting in like my adolescence, I wanted to sort of push back against that and question that to my parents chagrin. I mean, just always striking a healthy balance between logos and pathos, if you will, but obviously pouring

yourself unquestioningly into any methodology or approach to life, it can get extreme. It can get culty. It can get culty, my friend. So my next question for you is, many establishment medical professionals express concern about the risks of unassisted birth, but the medical establishment also leaves much to be desired when it comes to the safety, comfort and humanity of mothers. You've started speaking about this a bit. Could you talk about some of what you respect

and think we all have to learn from the free birthing movement? And then could you talk about what could seriously be improved upon? Yeah, absolutely. So the thing that we have to learn to respect is just autonomy. If someone chooses something for themselves,

we're all obligated to allow them to do that. That's their choice. That's just like a basic right that they have. And I think that everyone, especially now, could really just take a step back and a breather and remember that people are in charge of the choices that they make for themselves. Things that could be approved upon, geez, a lot. I would love to see the hospital system have a better understanding of why people choose

free birth, what a free birth actually entails, and how they could be of support to someone who might need that transfer. I'd love to see better education out there for people who want to free birth. It, for me, reminds me a lot of abortion, you know, in the way that if the system doesn't provide it, then nobody will do it. And we know that's just simply not true.

If the hospital system wants to be involved in this care and wants to prevent the tragedies that will sometimes happen in the free birth movement, but also very well happen in the hospital. And those stories sometimes don't get light. It would be a cohesive system, but we would see that play out in home birth as well. So there would be this understanding, it would be a full circle, it would be full care and everyone works dynamically together. If you choose a free birth, here are the options you have to follow up. If you choose the home birth, here's the options that you have to follow

up. And if you choose the hospital birth, here's what you can expect, honestly. Yeah. Because ultimately people are going to do what they're going to do and always have and always will. And you can either leave them out to dry. It's harm reduction. It's giving people safe options. And it really does feel kind of ironic that although these sides kind of butt against each other so much that the solution or at least a mitigation to both of the issues that occur would be more integration of both sides. Totally. It's simply about teaching people a safe way to do something if they are going to do this behavior, which to some people may feel rogue or it may feel deviant,

but for some people it feels very aligned. They feel fully educated and fully supported and fully confident in that decision. And I tend to lean towards who are we to try and talk them out of that. I'd rather give them the tools that they need to do it safely and teach them what to do if they get in a situation that is beyond what they feel comfortable with or their capabilities. Yeah. So talking about how these birthing people can be better equipped to do this safely in the future, can you explain a little bit more about what the typical home birth, free birth arrangement looks like as it exists now? How does it really compare and contrast with the care you might receive in a traditional medical setting? Yeah, I want to just be clear I've never attended a free birth. We have actually had some

precipitous labors that were planned hospital births or planned home births and either the midwife did not make it in time or baby came before we were able to transfer for the hospital unintentionally. In these situations, it's very hands-off. It is very much that mother and that baby are working together. Oftentimes those mothers reach down and they're the first ones to touch their baby. Their baby sees them for the first time versus in the hospital. Oh, those mothers are often also in a position that feels good to them or that is intuitive. Most people at home versus like your midwives at home or if a baby does come precipitously and no one's there to intervene, no one qualified, like a doula shouldn't be intervening.

They're not a medical professional, right? They just do it intuitively. You kind of like let that mom do what she needs. And if a problem arises, then you step in and let her know what you're seeing, let her know what you think should be done, get her permission, is that okay? In the hospital, it can be a little bit more cookie cutter almost, almost like a conveyor belt. There is a system where the hospital has an expectation of how they want births to go

in order to be profitable and serve as many people as possible. It would be remiss of us to have this conversation and not talk about the financial incentives that do follow hospital births. It doesn't make it wrong. It just means that I don't think we're incentivizing people or hospitals the correct way in order to actually make a profit and also improve birth, right? So in the hospital, you're gonna see more like people being told what position to push in.

Often it is on their back, which we know traditionally can increase harm to both mother and baby. We see broken collarbones in babies. We see longer push times. We see increased tearing in mothers, things like that. A lot of times in the hospital too, instead of it being an intuitively kind of guided process

where the mom just does what her body says, which is what we see in free and home birth, we are often being coached in how to push. Now this can be usually accounted for because of the great use of epidurals. Also not to say or demonize epidurals, not to say that they are bad, but to say that we might want to educate people on their options. You can have an unmedicated hospital birth and that's oftentimes not talked about, but a lot of people do desire it. You should have the freedom to choose an epidural or an unmedicated hospital birth and oftentimes it doesn't quite always feel like that. Sometimes there is some pressure to get the epidural. It's so interesting how much I'm hearing phrases like

either or, inside, outside, like us versus them when having these conversations. And it comes back to what you were saying about the need for integrating practices that are traditional to the medical establishment with practices that are embraced by the free birth movement or home birthers. Because I myself feel like so torn in having this conversation because when I hear things that like praise the free birth movement on one hand, I'm inspired by that. And I'm like, fuck yeah. Like I'm, you know, yeah. What, you know? It feels pretty hard.

Yeah. Totally. And like, I hated the doctor growing up. I mistrusted those motherfuckers. They just seemed like smug assholes. Like wanted me to, I don't even know, do what they said. And at the very same time, I have unbelievable respect for and a rational embrace of scientific inquiry.

And I would never be naive enough to reject medicine when it's necessary and whatever, but this is all so complicated because I'm like trying to hold my own desire for autonomy as a woman living on this planet and in America with like my disdain for rejection of Western medicine for the sake of it or as a stunt, you know, like, oh, there's like so much cognitive dissonance. The cognitive dissonance. Yeah. It's always there.

It's always lurking. Yeah. So on that note, I want to ask, many women report feeling empowered by their choices as free birthers. Do we even feel the need to label them as such? The language, let me tell you, is an ingredient in this cultish recipe. But of course, others describe feeling overly radicalized by the movement like it can be too much at times.

And so in an attempt to get sort of a full picture of this movement, we wanted to sort of pose a two-part question first, and I know you said like, we don't want to overly represent the worst case scenarios, but in the spirit of getting a full picture, could you describe some of the worst case scenarios, but in the spirit of getting a full picture, could you describe some of the worst case scenarios or potential nightmare scenarios of this movement times when it has truly gone too far and put people in danger?

And then I'll ask you a follow-up question that balances that out. Yeah, absolutely. I think the worst case scenario in any birth is a death of either the mom or the baby Which we have seen both of in the free birth movement we know that there have been people who have had signs of what we call like a stalled labor and They needed medical help. They should have sought medical help, but they were being told by coaches that they had hired or people in their community or other free birthers that they were fine and to stay home or they were given maybe something like an herbal ribbony. And again, I want to mention that if that person is choosing that and

they understand the risk, then we have to let them choose that. I think in many cases, the risk are often not talked about. The same exact thing can be said about the hospital system. That's what I aim to do is, yes, if an herbal remedy feels good to you, that is okay, but I feel the need to let you know there are some pretty severe risks with this. Are you open to hearing those? Do you want to hear about that before you make this decision? And so that's what I would say, yeah. Yeah, what do you think is responsible

for that information not getting communicated? Is it, this is just like a guess, but sometimes when we ourselves have made a certain choice, we're highly incentivized to convince others to make that same choice in order to validate our choice. And so I can see a scenario in which someone in the community would shame a mother for like needing to pursue help from a hospital

because that would then feel like it was invalidating the choices that they had made in the past. Do you think that's at play or like what is going on here when people are not getting the information that they had made in the past. Do you think that's at play or like what is going on here when people are not getting the information that they need to make an informed decision? Yeah, I think there's a lot of psychology behind this. I think there's a lot of things that we could unravel here. Probably your own traumas, the things that you've seen.

You wanna avoid the things that you've seen in the hospital for these people. So if you absolutely can keep them home longer for their free birth and it works out in the end, we all know that labors can take a long time. And there are places where a stalled labor can absolutely spontaneously get back going. We've all seen it if you attend labors.

It is a thing. There are places though, where maybe even just going to check in at the hospital is easier, right? I think also that there is a little bit of wanting to stick it to the man and like prove that you're right, like prove this movement is worth something. And I think that you have to have a healthy respect regardless of where you birth,

that sometimes birth isn't gonna go like we plan it to go and we might need to seek something else. I also think that there is a piece of judgment that if we really step back and everyone kind of recognized that autonomy, there wouldn't be any sort of judgment in that conversation. It would just be like,

this seems to be what you're experiencing or consider if this is what you're experiencing and seek help. I think people would be much quicker to recommend going to the hospital or at least seeking maybe midwifery care, maybe having a midwife that's on call to come to your home, something like that. Nicole Aspire Yeah, fully. Just prioritizing health of mother and baby over ego and over your inner sense of justice and whatnot. Absolutely.

Yeah, that's totally important. And do you think that it is possible to do that and to engage with these practices in a non dogmatic or not culty fashion? It's hard because I talked about previously, like you almost are pushed into a side, I aim to be as neutral as possible and sometimes it's not possible. There is bad data out there too that can get out and sometimes when you speak out about something that is absolutely true, for example women having the right to eat and drink and labor, we know that that is evidence-based, we know people should be allowed to do that. It can even feel a little culty to

say like if your doctor is telling you don't do this, they're wrong. It feels weird to do that. It feels weird to say that a doctor might be giving outdated advice So I had no idea that fact just blew my mind Policies around the nation that are actually written many many years ago and say that you should not eat or drink and labor But we have hard data. It is a well-known fact. It's actually well accepted by nurses, OBs, midwives, the whole entire birth community that you should be allowed to eat and drink. And so now you've put your nurses and doctors in a predicament where they either have to uphold the hospital policy or- Call to the medicals. Yeah, for sure.

It's deep. It's so deep, which also goes back to the psychological. Yeah, for sure. It's deep. It's so deep, which also goes back to the psychological piece of why is someone maybe not getting all the risk? Maybe that person that's telling them has a little person on their ear chirping saying, don't you do this? Do not tell them the risk because they may not choose to do that. Yeah. I mean, the only way that I can even semi relate to this is my experience of getting an IUD and that New York Times piece just came out being like, did you know IUDs are painful? When I got my IUD, my life flashed before my eyes, not only because of the, okay, yeah, good to hear, bad to hear, good to hear. We're not alone, but we are all in pain, god damn it. Because they say there may be some discomfort.

And I got mine done at a Planned Parenthood and we love Planned Parenthood. You know, this is an important organization, yes. But when I got my, and it was free, loved that for me. I was in my mid-20s, this is personal, but no one prepares you for that pain. Not only did the procedure itself hurt in the most excruciating way I could ever imagine, but they did this thing before they put the device in where they excavated my

uterus slash cervix to make sure it could accommodate the device. I don't know why they did that. That was when my life really flashed before my eyes because they were like digging around in my internal organs. Like a pumpkin. Literally they were like carving me like a fucking pumpkin. My internal organs, like your cervix fucking pried open.

Imagine prying the internal organ of a man open. And like, you know. Never, we would never even consider doing that. No. So like the second that whole experience was finished, I was Googling to find other cervix owners who'd had the same experience. And I mean, I all I could find were like blogs in the depths of forums. Like this was not widespread information. So I started to feel a little conspiratorial. I was like, okay, there's like this big scheme to, you know, and I, and I, and I understood it on one

hand, cause I was like, people want people who could get pregnant to get IUDs because they're really effective birth control. And so are they tricking us into thinking it's not painful to like, you know, fill us up with IUDs? Like, you know, and so then I'm like, oh my God, I started selling JD Vance. And I just like, you know, like you start to sell. But then you hear stuff like women can't eat during labor, even though that's better for them. And then you're like, well, maybe that's not so crazy

to think that. Right, right. So like, it's so easy to develop like deep mistrust. You're in your body, like you're having this like animal experience and some doctor's telling you some bullshit, but then some lady over there is telling you some other bullshit. And you're just like, what do I do?

Oh my gosh. You wanna know where I think the idea that women don't need pain relief during IUD placement came from? What, what, where, where? Are either one of you familiar with how the idea that women don't need pain relief during IUD placement came from? What? Where? Where? Are either one of you familiar with how obstetrics actually came about? Oh. What happened? Let me enlighten you.

So there was this white doctor and he took four slaves and he experimented on them without pain and that is essentially how the idea that black people had higher pain tolerances than white people came about as well. There are so many racist practices and misogynistic practices that can be traced back to the very beginning of obstetrics. I believe that that's where our very misogynistic language of, like, you're not allowed, scoot down to the table for me. This is not really about the doctor. It's about that patient, right?

The language of, oh, it's just a little pinch. Amanda, it wasn't just a little pinch when you got your IUD. I'm shocked. I'm so shocked it was a life-changing experience and it wasn't just a little pinch when you got your IUD. I'm shocked. I'm so shocked. It was a life-changing experience and it wasn't just a little pinch. All right. So for me, I think that it can really be traced back to looking at women more like an object. And so now we're in this wave of kind of taking back control and saying, actually, when those procedures are done, they leave lasting impacts on us. And so we need to be thinking deeply about how we are treating women and their bodies through their entire obstetrical and gynecological experience from pre puberty in the pediatrician's

office all the way through the end of life. I love this notion of like, you totally just blew my mind about the language used in medical settings and how that in itself is inherently misogynistic a lot of the time. So I'm trying to reclaim geriatric. Geriatric is the worst. I aspire to it. No, it's so yeah.

I mean, when it comes to oppressive language slurs, the rest misogynistic language, your options are either like abolish or reclaim. Geriatric I'm trying to reclaim for myself, but the medical language surrounding gynecology and obstetrics is so disgusting. I mean, inhospitable womb, Jesus Christ. Oh my god. It's so like dehumanizing in a lot of ways, and I feel like it doesn't need to be. So what are some changes like changing the language that you would like to see in traditional healthcare spaces so that women don't feel like they need to turn to practices that may endanger themselves or their baby?

Kite Absolutely, I'd love to see that integration that you talked about. I would love to see all hospital staff be trained in unmedicated labor, in spontaneous labor. What does just normal hands-off labor look like? Why do so many people want it? Because it's the normal natural way. It is kind of what a lot of women desire. And then if you get into the hospital system, it can kind of be changed a little bit. In home birth, how do you know if you're right for a home birth? How do you find a home birth midwife that is qualified? Now that is a cult all on its own

from licensure of midwifery care. Who do you choose? All of that jazz. And then how do you know that you are right for free birth? And then where do you get that educated information? How do you know the situations that you actually should seek medical care? And when are the situations that herbs may be the answer? I think if we can get that integration of everyone understanding what the other options are and how you are essentially a big puzzle and we all have to work together if we're going to give women the best and safe experience to have their baby because it really is a portal into a new part of you. You will not be the same woman that you were when you come out of birth. When that person

has a baby, you're going to be a different human on the other end. All partners will, dads will, grandparents will, even I believe that the people who are in your room, so I'm a different person, increment by increment, inch by inch, every birth that I go to. And I think OBs are the same thing and that has the potential to either harden you or to let you really, really, really lean into that piece of you, whether it be the spiritual piece of you or the just inner piece of you or whatever you want to call it.

Oh my God. I love the play on the word. Okay, poet. I feel like we all just want to thank you. I know. Thank you for that. And voice up later. Yes, thank you so much for joining us. If people would like to keep up with you, where can they find you? Absolutely. Thanks for having me. People can find me at Tranquility by Heehee.

That's H-E-H-E on Instagram, TikTok. I also have a podcast. It's The BirthLounge Podcast, and you can find a lot of free resources there to help you have an empowered and autonomous birth, no matter where you birth, but particularly how to have a positive hospital birth. Amazing. Thank you. Awesome.

Thank you. Thanks, guys. Okay, Reese, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which one do you think the cult of free birthers falls into? Ah, hmm. I think I have to go watch your back. But I think I want to say like, inform your back. Learn about all of

your potential birthing options and proceed with the best choice for you. Inform your back. Inform your back. I agree. I mean, if you had asked me before we looked into the subject matter, what the vibes were going to be, I would say get the fuck out. But I have been so backed away from the ledge. I agree. It's a watch your back. And I honestly, I feel like this episode is going to inform the way that I make my own birth plan decisions one day, you know? Wow, what a moment we've come to on this show!

That's what we call it as an important show, okay? It is an important show with real world effects, people. Well, I am so curious, a little nervous, but mostly curious to hear what listeners have to say about this episode. We appreciate you holding space for the strange tone of this episode and the show in general. Thank you, Reese, for being you. And that is our show. Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for a new Cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult is hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of the PodCabin.

Our theme music is by Casey Cole. This episode was co-hosted and co-produced by Reese Oliver. Thank you as well, Katie Epperson. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I'd really appreciate it if you would leave a rating and review on Spotify or Apple podcasts.