Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Glossier

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

Catch Amanda back on tour this summer in Chicago, Minneapolis, and Seattle!! Friday, July 12: The Big Magical Cult Show at Park West in Chicago, IL (buy tickets here!) Saturday, July 13: The Big Magical Cult Show at Cedar Cultural Center in Minneapolis, MN (buy tickets here!) July 29: The Age of Magical Overthinking book talk at Elliott Bay Book Company in Seattle, WA (free!) Time to Milky Jelly™ cleanse your souls, culties. If you were alive in 2017, and anywhere near our same millennial pink corner of the internet, then you KNEW what a Glossier girl was. The emblem of relatable-but-aspirational coolness helmed by cult leader… ahem, CEO… Emily Weiss (of The Hills fame) was so much more than a cosmetics line. Glossier was a lifestyle, a uniform, an identity template, a cultural phenomenon, a religion? Come on, those pink bubble wrap pouches??? If you had one, it meant you’d reached a certain kind of ~enlightenment~. Alongside the likes of other rare brands like Starbucks and SoulCycle, Glossier was a ”cult-followed” company through in through… but was something more sinister lurking underneath? Why did the brand take off as astronomically as it did? And what is the status of the “cult” now? At long last, host Amanda is (over)analyzing the spiritual movement that is Glossier with none other than beauty journalist Marisa Meltzer, author of the New York Times bestselling book Glossy: Ambition, Beauty, and the Inside Story of Emily Weiss's Glossier (out now in paperback!). Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @amanda_montell To order Amanda's new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality, click here :) To subscribe to her new Magical Overthinkers podcast click here! Thank you to our sponsors, who make this show possible: Earn points by paying rent right now when you go to joinbilt.com/cult. Visit BetterHelp.com/CULT today to get 10% off your first month. Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/cult. 

Listen up renters. Do you ever feel like you are stuck in this loop of rent payments? It is time to turn that rent game around and start earning some serious rewards. That's where Built Rewards comes in. Earn points by paying rent right now when you go to joinbuilt.com slash cult. That's join B-I-L-T dot com slash cult. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. When life goes so fast, it's important to take a moment and therapy can help you do that. Take a moment. Visit betterhelp.com slash cult today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, h-e-l-p dot com slash cult. Whatever your favorite romance trope, Dipsy has a spicy audio story just for you. For listeners of the show, Dipsy is offering an

extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipsyystories.com slash cult. That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to D-I-P-S-E-A stories.com slash cult, dipsystories.com slash cult. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. I've been in many, many airplane security lines and seen another girl across the way and we're both tossing our Glossier bubble wrap pouches that have like wipes and earplugs or something for like the plane in them and you kind of look at each other and it's

truly like you're members of a cult doing like a secret nod. You're like you got it, I get it, we're the same. You don't even need to talk. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montell, author of the books Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, and The Age of Magical Overthinking. Every week on the show, you're gonna hear about a different fanatical fringe group or guru from the cultural zeitgeist.

From CrossFit to Theater Kids, to try and answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult, but is it really? Ah! But is it really? And if so, which cult category does it fall into? Is it a live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out level cult? After all, the word cult doesn't just mean groups like Jonestown and the Mansons anymore. When I say that SoulCycle is a cult or Elon Musk stands are a cult or

corporate America is a cult or Glossier is a cult, we all kind of have an intuitive sense of knowing about what that means. It means, well, it's actually hard to define what it means. That's the whole thing. I might think that people who are obsessed with barbecue are a cult, whereas those barbecue might think that I as a vegetarian am an occult myself. Cultishness is in the eyes of the beholder. Cultishness is up to interpretation. It falls on a spectrum. But I think there are a few things that we can all agree it generally means. It's a group of people who are really fanatical about something that gives them a sense of meaning and purpose that might not make sense to those on the outside. And sometimes there is a

super charismatic leader at the top that everybody worships unquestioningly. And sometimes there's financial abuse or even physical abuse. Sometimes things get really bad, but not always. That's why this podcast exists to determine whether all the sort of cult-y groups that people rally around these days, whether it's a workplace or a brand, it's to determine whether those places are cult-y in a bad way or cult-y in a relatively harmless way. Now, before we get into the episode,

I wanted to do a couple little housekeeping updates. First of all, my new podcast, Magical Overthinkers, is well underway. It is my new baby, my new little pride and joy. It is a podcast for Thought Spirallers. Hello, me. Where every other Wednesday, I interview a brilliant expert guest about some buzzy confounding subject that we can't stop overthinking about. The first episode was about narcissism. It's already live. And then I just put out an episode called overthinking about monogamy, where I had the most mind blowing conversation with this incredible feminist philosopher named Dr. Ellie Anderson, where we discussed monogamy and non-monogamy slash polyamory through a

philosophical lens, which was so brain tingling. I really feel changed from that interview. So I hope you listen. You can find magical overthinkers wherever you get your podcasts. And then the other thing I wanted to mention, which I'm equally excited about is that I am going back out on book tour. Thank you so much to everybody who came to my events back in April, my first leg of the tour in New York, Boston, and Philly, and Portland, and all the places. It went so well that my publisher told me that I could go back out again. So first of all, I'm doing a free little library event on June 11th at the Mill Valley

Public Library in the Bay Area. So if you live in the San Francisco area, the general vicinity, tap the link in our show notes. It's a free event. You just have to RSVP. And then in July, I'm going to be coming to Chicago, Minneapolis and Seattle. Save the date. The Chicago event is on July 12th. That's a Friday. Minneapolis is on July 13th. That's a Saturday. And the Seattle event is on July 29th. These events are so fun. There are books, there is merch,

there are meet and greets. They are a who-to-nanny, and I so, so, so hope you come. I am not quite sure if tickets are gonna be available by the time this airs, but check the links in the show notes. Either way, save those dates. I have actually never been to Chicago

and never been to Minneapolis. So I am so excited to come chuck out, chuck out. Let's chuck out together. Anyway, onto today's episode. I have been itching to cover this topic. I touched on it in my book, Cultish. It's the cult of Glossier, the cool girl makeup and skincare brand

that was launched in 2014. It put millennial pink on the map. It put the no makeup makeup look on the map and it came with an identity. In the mid 2010s, I worked as a beauty editor and I would have given anything to be a Glossier girl, to be that imperfectly perfect girl that this makeup brand seemed to promise its consumers could be. So let's get a little background on the cult of this cosmetics brand Glossier because those who already know the brands don't necessarily need much explanation about why Glossier is

a cult. But there are probably some people listening who are scratching their heads like it's just a makeup and skincare brand. I haven't heard anything wild about it in the news. No one's dying. How is Glossier a cult? Let's look into its history first. So Glossier got its roots in a beauty website called Into the Gloss, this very cool girl

digital beauty magazine, which was founded in 2010 by Glossier's cult leader, Emily Weiss. Emily Weiss already had a bit of a cult following at the time because she made this notorious cameo appearance in the early 2000s MTV reality show, The Hills. She played the protagonist, Lauren's sort of pseudo nemesis. She was this perfect intern from New York. Ring any bells? So in 2010, Emily Weiss transcended her brief reality TV stint and founded Into the Gloss,

which profiled celebrity skincare and makeup favorites in this very cool, casual way. But Emily was like, beauty editorial? No, that's small potatoes. I'm launching a consumer brand. And in 2014, Glossier was born. 10 years later, according to contrary research, Glossier is currently worth $1.8 billion.

This brand had such rapid growth, but not just in the financial sense, in the spiritual, cultural, social sense, that it can really only be described as a cult brand. And that has a lot to do with Emily. You're gonna hear way more about her story and her persona and the whole story of the cult of Glossier from my guest joining us later. Her name is Marissa Meltzer and she wrote this expose,

this deep dive into the history and rise and fall question mark of Glossier. The book is called Glossy. The subtitle is Ambition Beauty and the Inside Story of Emily Weiss's Glossier. It became a New York Times bestseller. I blurbed it, which means I got to read it early and write a little line of endorsement for the cover. It's really good. So you're going to hear from Marissa later. But some fast facts about Emily are that she was raised in Connecticut. Her vibes were always very Ralph Lauren. In fact, she interned at Ralph Lauren and Teen Vogue. That's why she was on the Hills. She studied studio art in college and she created Into the Glass while she was working as a styling assistant at Vogue. So she was someone

with pedigrees. She's also very beautiful as all good wellness slash beauty cult leaders are. Hello, Grenadaljo. So two years after she launched her online magazine into the gloss, it had over 200,000 unique visitors per month. That was in 2012. So that was a pretty big deal, but not big enough for Ms. Emily. No, no. In 2014, she sought funding from venture capitalists to expand into the gloss and she raised somewhere between $2 million and $10 million, depending on who you ask, in seed funding and that's what she used to create Glossier.com and hire a team. Glossier launched with four products, their Balm.com, their priming moisturizer, their

perfecting skin tint and their soothing face mist. Oh my god, I remember the elusive launch of Glossier, again because I was working at this competitor site to Into the Gloss, actually called Birdie, where if you were an editor who got sent one of these distinctive pink bubble wrap cases full of Glossier products, it was basically like being anointed by a god. You were not just receiving beauty products, you were determined to be blessed by the cool girl authorities of the world. It really meant something larger than life. In 2018, Glossier opened their first retail location. Now there are 11, but oh my God, I remember when that store opened, it was like Studio 54 in the 80s clamoring to this millennial pink paradise to

get a glimpse of Glossier to try on the products in the store to get an Instagram. It really said something about you if you were there. And a year later in 2019, the company was valued at $1.2 billion. So it was climbing. Glossier was kind of a lightning in the bottle situation, but to break down what made the brand a cult from the sort of strategic marketing side, because it was no accident that this brand became so iconic and attracted such religious fanaticism. It had this very chic minimalist, but still hashtag relatable aesthetic.

You'll hear from Marissa later, but the vibe was very much like, you can sit with us, but you'll never feel fully, fully good enough, which is very alluring and very cult-like as a sort of brand positioning tactic. There were also some super unique things about the brand. First of all, that color, that millennial pink made it so recognizable. Interestingly, I heard from some brand experts not too long ago that a brand having a distinct color is no longer such an important thing. But in 2014 when Glossier launched, it was everything. Emily Weiss had her perfectly manicured paws over every square inch of this brand. She really harnessed social

media. I mean, their website used to have these free phone wallpapers, so anyone who loved Glossier would basically be like a walking advertisement everywhere, carrying the brand's marketing with them on their phones. The packaging itself had a cult following, again, those staple pink bubble wrap pouches. They also had stickers and little pink boxes. They were so coveted. I actually found an eBay listing where you can get a Glossier tote, it's just a tote bag, a couple stickers and a singular pink pouch for $125. They also have these

super distinct sayings and mantras that they would repeat that felt like more than just a brand tagline. The Glossier way was skin first, makeup second, smile always slash you look good. So it was very like self-care energy, but again, with this sense of exclusivity and that juxtaposition defines the cult of Glossier. Weiss once said that she intended to create a skincare and makeup brand whose sweatshirt people would want to wear. So, I mean, it's ridiculous. Can you imagine someone walking around proudly wearing a Biore sweatshirt or even an Estee Lauder sweatshirt? No, because there's no such thing as a Biore girl

or an Estee Lauder girl, but there was such a thing as a Glossier girl. And it felt at the time like anyone who was anyone wanted to be that. Except for all their like, you look good, self love messaging, Glossier was actually not so inclusive. Indeed, there are some big blemishes on the glazed donut moisturized face of Glossier. During the social reckonings of 2020, when a lot of current and former employees of these sort of problematic girl bossy type brands were coming forward and saying, hey,

you know, like, it's not as great as it looks up in here. Glossier was no exception. In 2020, some former employees created an Instagram called Out of the Gloss to expose the poor working conditions, especially for workers of color, workers from marginalized backgrounds. A statement from Out of the Gloss explicitly said, Glossier's cult status was largely secured thanks to their vow to democratize beauty. We as a collective of former retail employees, aka editors, have experienced an ongoing insidious culture of anti-blackness, transphobia, ableism, and retaliation. We know the proclaimed brand values of inclusivity, accessibility, and equity should apply to us. We ask Glossier's devoted community if this democratization is only achieved by perniciously

silencing black and brown editors and without treating marginalized staff equitably, have they democratized BUD at all? Or is it more of the same? Two years later in 2022, Weiss stepped down as CEO. And Glossier still exists. It still definitely has a halo around it. But I think that out of the gloss statement really put it perfectly because I think what might make a brand problematically culty is when they claim to be enlightened, when they claim to be more than just a brand. They claim to be a lifestyle, a way of life, almost an ideology, certainly an aesthetic, an identity template, but then there's hypocrisy behind the scenes. That I think is one culty red flag when it

comes to these brands that totally transcend the exchange of money for goods or services. I am so curious to hear if anyone listening was either a Glossier girl or desperately wanted to be a Glossier girl or decided to break up with the cult of Glossier parasocially in any way. Find us on Instagram at sounds like a cult pod and leave a comment on our Glossier post, sharing any stories you feel comfortable sharing. I would love to hear. And now I am so excited to present our interview with the expert on the cult of Glossier, the author of Glossy herself, reporter Marissa Meltzer. And now a quick word from our Cult Followed sponsors.

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and you can switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Take a moment. Visit betterhelp.com slash cult today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, h-e-l-p dot com slash cult. Marissa, thank you so much for joining me and sounds like a cult on this much anticipated journey toward the cult of Glossier, Mecca. Yeah, it's a light pink castle in the sky. It's made of cotton candy, but it's dewy at the same time.

It's where the girl bosses live. I mean, my relationship to Glossier is longstanding and it's similar to that of religious worshipers' relationship to their respective God, because I'm just like, I fucking hate you for what you did to me, but I want you to love me so much. Yeah. Why do you think I had to write a whole book to process my feelings? Yeah. Okay. Could you please introduce yourself and your work to our listeners? Yeah. I'm Marissa Meltzer. I wrote a book called Glossy, which is about Glossier.

Marissa Meltzer, I wrote a book called Glossy, which is about Glossier. And it's also about the girl boss, the rise of the beauty industry, the changing world of aesthetics and what we consider beautiful. It's about venture capital. It's about ambition. It's about Emily Weiss, the founder. It's about the semiotics of millennial pink. And I am a journalist and writer and have heard beauty industry and written about celebrities and fashion and many other things for pretty much my entire adult life.

I want to get more into the culty analysis, but could you just sort of like summarize the rise of Glossier? Like when it started, how it started, how Emily Weiss came to this idea and how it became so cult followed on the outset. Okay, so Emily Weiss started with a cult following because she had this three episode extended cameo on the hills, which was a popular MTV reality show. And she kind of burst onto it as this hyper competent teen vogue intern imported from the East Coast to save the day. She literally has a notebook, a binder, click clacking in heels. She knows what chinoiserie is.

She can correctly identify flower type. She could not have been more of a dramatic foil to like Elsie and the crew. So she started out as this kind of cult character, if you know you know. So then a few years goes by and at least for me someone was like, you know that girl Emily from the Hills? And it was like, of course. She started this beauty blog and it's really good. So she starts into the gloss, which becomes the kind of preeminent beauty blog. And this is the era of, you know, the fashion blogger, the beauty blogger. One of her close friends is Leandra Medin, who had man repeller.

And you know, it's this kind of like downtown New York fashion set. Emily had spent some time at like Teen Vogue, Vogue, W, working for a stylist and had transitioned into, you know, kind of owning the beauty side of the web. And she had this signature column that she figures out right away called Top Shelf. And it's the equivalent of like the culture diary or whatever where Emily is literally going into their bathroom and sitting on the toilet or the tub and someone's just showing them products they like and use and narrating it and she's taking

their picture. She's also a wildly gifted photographer so the pictures are actually great to the point that the picture she took of Kim Kardashian, Kim used as her like LinkedIn headshot for years and actually email to like ask permission if she could use it. And it's like, yes, Kim Kardashian, you may use my portrait of you. So, you know, there was a lot of interest and a following around that. And then Emily takes it a step further and is like, I'm going to come up with beauty products. And I already sort of have this in-house panel of voices from people that she had covered on Into the Gloss and also this really robust Instagram community. And so they start launching products under the brand Glossier, which subsumes into

the gloss in some ways. Glossier then becomes the main character. And the products are an instant hit. They kind of in a smart way try to be sort of the millennial update to the Clinique three-step cleansing system that had come out in the late 60s and had sort of never really been updated or no one had ever really replaced it. And it became kind of not just the millennial beauty brand, but sort of like the millennial brand. And when Glossier came out in 2014, this is also right when Instagram is gaining total social media domination and Glossier launches on Instagram before they even have products. So people are like, what is this? And now it's just like a mood board, but it's like pink deserts and Kate Moss

and like a picture fruit and you know, like a painted lady Victorian. And it's like, ooh, I love all of this. Like, what does this evoke? And so many things that now seem normal and commonplace for like marketing, it became the playbook. I remember it so well. I remember when those first images of Glossier before there was a brand hit Instagram.

And I remember meeting into the gloss editors. There were just a couple of them at different beauty events around LA and they were way too cool and they knew it. Like they, they were not nice, but in that way that makes you want them, that makes you really want to impress them. I'm very well acquainted with that feeling. It's kind of like they did this really interesting thing tonally with their language, where the kind of vibe of Into the Gloss was a little bit like cooler than thou, but in a way that was fun and aspirational where you're like, what is this indie music person? Like what perfume do they like or whatever?

Totally. It was like, not actually I woke up like this effortless, but it was like the Chloe Seven yee breed of I just ooze cool. I'm a little bit jaded. I do not use exclamation points. And that tone became a playbook too. I remember the day at the beauty website where I worked that one of our higher-ups who really had her finger on the pulse and was like totally trying to be Emily Weiss 2.0. I remember her coming into the conference room during an edit meeting one day and being like, they don't use exclamation points at Into the Glass and we're not gonna either. I was like, God damn it, I love a good exclamation. Yeah. And then Glossier came out and the tone changed just enough.

They were using phrases like, you look good and you can sit with us. And it was suddenly smiley faced and inclusive. And so there was this interesting juxtaposition of like the beautiful girl that is kind of ignoring you, but one day suddenly she's nice to you. Oh my god, it's so true. It's so true. It's like something out of a movie, but in real life. Yeah.

And it's like, does she want something from me? Does she see that I'm cool too? Like have I crossed over? And it's enough of a kind of tension that it keeps you on your toes, I think. And it keeps you wanting to follow along and literally keep buying in. What led you to to focus on Glossier for this expose? And what were some of the most shocking discoveries you made during the process? Well, my initial thought was that there should be a book about the beauty industry because I was fascinated by it because I'd written about it and it was like kind of this secret that people who

like worked in beauty or media understood that it was this like powerhouse even more so maybe than fashion but that fashion was kind of like the cool sister that got all the credit and beauty was this powerhouse, even more so maybe than fashion, but that fashion was kind of like the cool sister that got all the credit, and beauty was this workhorse that kept the lights on. And at the same time, right before the pandemic happened, the kind of like last big story I had written was a big piece on Emily Weiss and Glossier for Vanity Fair. So they were very like fresh on my mind as I was home alone,

seeing my face reflected back at me in like zooms and mirrors and stuff and wearing just like sweatpants and caftans instead of fashion or whatever. And realized in a kind of circuitous way that I could tell the story of everything that I was obsessed with in the last decade, whether it was the girl bosses or beauty or venture capital or the DTC gold rush through the story of Glossier and also that it was just this company with this kind of enigmatic founder that I had written about but was like in no way done processing. Like it was, you know, it was my Roman Empire. Yeah.

And then as you really started getting into it and investigating and spending time with Emily and diving into the backstory, I mean, obviously when you write about beauty and when you're sort of like a professional looker under the hood or it's hard to shock. But were you shocked at any point in uncovering this story? And if so, you know, what were those details that surprised you? I never get over the profit margins on beauty. I'm always like, I am in the wrong industry. Like a brand like La Cie, the profit margins are like 80, 85%. Like, what's wrong with me? Why am I a writer? Like, why am I not, you know, making a moisturizer? And there's also just like the amount of money that gets thrown around casually is wild, you know, just like

$100,000 a piece photo shoots that were just never saw the light of day because someone, whether it was Emily or another executive, just decided they didn't like it. Developing an app and spending millions of dollars between hiring people and the time spent working on it. It was always so chaotic and shambolic that no one could even tell me what it was supposed to do or the name because it changed so often. You know, this kind of like high stakes, like throwing money around but also whimsy. And then there's the whole issue of this corporate culture that is not unique to Glossier in any way, but just this kind of, you know, like clickishness, mean girls thing that can happen in a company that's largely staffed by women, which is very cool, but also has this way of replicating

high school in some ways, which is really sad and kind of messed up. It's something that we constantly find ourselves in. Oh my God. I remember it all too well. I mean, I worked in beauty editorial, so it was different, budgets were different than if you're working in beauty commerce, but there was absolutely those dynamics,

those sort of mean girl dynamics and also deifying certain brands. And if you were an editor or getting paid, I don't know, $40,000 a year, it almost didn't even matter because if you were blessed by the clout of Glossier by getting invited to those parties and getting sent those products that made up for the lack of income. Yeah, I mean, that's the way that people have been sold editorial jobs forever, is that the glamor that comes by association is gonna make up for any of the kind of decidedly

not glamorous part of being underpaid and working hard and all of those other things. Yeah, so a lot of the things that you're describing, the juxtaposition of unbelievable sums of money, but also sort of frivolity and whimsy and capriciousness, the corporate side of money, but also sort of like frivolity and whimsy and capriciousness, the like corporate side of things, but also the mean girl side of things, not exclusive to Glossier.

However, Glossier was special. And I'm curious if you could sort of unpack what elements do you think define a brand as cult followed in general? And when do you think that that phrase crosses over from the sort of cheeky and hyperbolic to something more sinister? Okay, so I think the idea of a brand with a cult following

is like, there has to be some idea of you against the world. Like you're in on it, you get boy brow and those who also use Boy Brow get you. Like to me the thing that Glossier did early on that is the most cult thing is they had these pink bubble wrap pouches that came for free with your order. So if you bought a mist, a moisturizer, whatever, you've got these pink bubble wrap pouches that were unmistakable and were invited to be reused. In fact, my organizational system is to this day, largely glossier pouches that have like batteries

or like sewing supplies or whatever written on them that I like stuff things into. So like I many times had been on like something that was very kind of glossier like a yoga retreat and you go into various people's rooms and everyone has a glossier bubble wrap things stuffed with toiletries or I've been in many, many airplane security lines and seeing another girl across the way. And we're both tossing our Glossier bubble wrap pouches that have like wipes and earplugs or something for like the plane in them. And you kind of look at each other. And it's truly like you're members of a cult doing like a secret nod. You're like, you got it, I get it, we're the same. And you don't even need to talk. It's silent communication. No one else knows what you're doing. And what that kind of signified was like,

I too am effortless and dewy and cool and kind of like a city girl. But I also don't take this stuff too seriously because I'm just smearing on a little blush and then I'm getting on with my life. And I think it crosses over probably when people become crazy about things like sharing codes for like very few

discounts there were memes where it's like someone is dying and their last Final words are like share my my blah, blah, blah for like 15 off your first order or whatever. It becomes a thing also where it's like, you will not rest until your friends and family members also try your favorite product and hopefully like it too. Yes. Because if they don't like it, then they don't like you. That's the implication because you've completely bound up your identity in this brand.

Yeah, like I have blonde hair. My mother is a redhead. I mean, I think I called her semi screaming when Glossier launched their like Auburn red hair boy brow color. And I was like, mom, it's for you. It's happening. And she knows what Glossier is, but she was just like, I don't need it. I have brow products.

And I was like, you don't get it. Your time has come. Look at this campaign. Look at these models. Look at all this beautiful hair. And she was just like, are you okay? This color isn't even for you. She lives on the West Coast.

I live on the East. And it was like, I was like waiting for her to wake up in the morning to be like, it's here. You can get it. I'm ordering it for you. Right. Completely. I understand what you're saying.

It's like when the fanaticism crosses over from like, this is just a hobby or this is just a brand or product that I like into like, my body is having a reaction and like a religious reaction to the choices of this higher power and like when they're releasing their goods. Yes. It's very like higher power and like when they're releasing their goods. Yes, it's very like higher power. They have looked to you. They're acknowledging you. Aren't you so excited? And my mom is like, I don't care about that higher power. Yeah. It's truly like, this is your weird thing. Like I don't care that they launched a Red Head product and I'm like, they see you.

Yes, completely. And that is a dynamic that we find in so many of these sort of parasocial cults like Swifties and other forms of celebrity worship or brand worship is that we want to be seen by this thing that we worship. We want to feel like we're a part of this in-group that we're in on this secret that we're not only participating in, but that is inviting us. These brands, Emily Weiss and Taylor Swift are so good at making that sort of totally impersonal

second person plural you feel like a singular you. I'm talking to you. Well, it's also like a Glossier store or pop-up comes to your town. And for those who are part of the cult, they're like, oh my God. It's similar like Taylor Swift is coming to your city or country.

You're like, I am being blessed by this presence. When do I line up? How do I celebrate? Can I tailgate? Am I gonna meet my best friend here? Am I gonna make friends in line? What kind of limited edition merch is there going to be? And then also it's that thing of like, then you also try to maybe

sell someone who is not part of it. I mean, like, well, come with me on Saturday, this is my whole plan for the day. And they're like, you're standing in line for something that you could buy online, and you already have one. one and it's like you don't get it. Completely. You are not on my level. Yeah. Yes. It's very like effortless, girly, hype beast energy. Absolutely. Which is part of what was their launch. They didn't launch with like a whole line of lipsticks and sunscreens and stuff like a larger beauty company. It was like, we have bestowed four products on you and you will wait excitedly a la supreme hypebeast

to see what we concoct next that will surprise and delight you and that you will need. Totally. And that to me is just sort of extremely clever, cult followed marketing in the slightly more innocent pedestrian sense. But I think it actually crosses over into something a little more sinister and closer to a watch your back or get the fuck out style cult. I think it's when you like shed other parts of your identity to replace them with glossier

and start to consider yourself superior to those who are on the outside. And then it's a sort of thing where you're like only surrounding yourself with people who look like you, dress like you, eat like you, do their makeup like you. And that could bleed into like, well, I'm only going to read the publications that a Glossier girl would read. And I'm only going to associate with the, even the politics of someone of a Glossier girl. And that can be kind of pernicious.

Right, when a brand becomes your whole personality, right? I mean, you see this with people who are, they call them editors, which is a weird term, but basically like Glossier retail employees. And they were cast in some ways, like an actor or like a Playboy bunny was cast. They had to like send in videos and there was an in-person session

and then maybe you made the cut and there was another. And then when you did get hired, you were like issued your pink jumpsuit and everyone wore it a little bit differently. And did you cuff it? Did you roll it down? Did you tie it at the waist? And then you were treated like a local celebrity

where bakeries would give you a free cupcake. Someone would give you a discount for a facial just because you were so cool by proxy of being associated with this brand. And then also that brand becomes your social life because these are suddenly your best friends. And you're all going to the same restaurants nearby. The interesting thing is a lot of those people do not work for Glossier anymore because life goes on or actually because they were laid off, but many of them are still

really tight and friends. I wonder if Glossier in their recruiting took a page out of SoulCycle's handbook because SoulCycle and now Peloton famously do not cast their instructors from like personal trainers. They cast from performers, Broadway actors and dancers, people with charisma to burn. ["Divine Roses"] Question for you culties, did you just finish a court of thorns and roses and are craving another fantasy world to devour?

Hello, meet Dipsy. Dipsy is an app full of hundreds of short, spicy audio stories. Can you think of anything more scrumptious? They bring scenarios to life with immersive soundscapes and realistic characters. You can discover stories about second chance romances, adventurous vacation flings and hot and heavy hookups. And get this, they even have a growing library of fantasy series. If werewolves and Greek gods and goddesses and historical fiction and even fairy smut sound right up your

alley, your little cup of tea. I love Dipsy. They're an OG sponsor of Sounds Like a Cult. Thank you very, very much. Very brand aligned. Hello. They also have sleep and wellness sessions. If you just want to dip a toe into the like the PG-13 rated arena of Dipsey, then you can graduate if you feel like it. For listeners of the show, Dipsey is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to dipsystories.com slash cult. That's 30 days of full access for free. When you go to D I P S E A stories.com slash cult dipsystories.com slash cult. So we were talking a little bit earlier about the tension of inclusivity

and exclusivity that Glossier created. So genius. Emily was truly a master of creating those dynamics. And I was wondering if you could talk about how that contributed to Glossier's cult following. Yeah, I mean, I think it was this idea wanting to create a community, but also wanting this like top down of people that were just a little bit maybe in it before you or your superiors or sort of more in that world or like a little prettier or had more followings. I mean, similarly in the company itself,

there was a little bit of a pecking order of they call them the OGs. Like were you there in the beginning? Did you work in a department that was like something Emily understood and that was close to her? For the retail employees, it was like, does Emily follow you personally on Instagram?

Are you friends with her socially? And as the company grew, which it did really quickly, it's one thing when it's like 12 people and 40 people, but suddenly it's like 150 people. And you're hiring all of these engineers and tech people to build out apps that never come. And those people sort of by virtue of the fact that they're in a very different part of the company and literally we're on a different floor, there becomes

this real divide even within the company itself of the kind of haves and the have-nots or sort of the ones that are like closer and further from the center of power. Wow. So it sounds like not only the outward facing brand of Glossier was cult-like, but the internal culture was quite cult-like and there was a conversation, if not totally on purpose, then sort of organically between those two power structures, that of the company itself and that of its consumers. So some modern cults don't have a leader that's so easy to identify, but Emily Weiss is like without a doubt unquestioningly Glossier's charismatic leader. Can you talk about the time that you spent with her and any cult leader-ish qualities you noticed in her for better and for worse?

Oh my gosh. Okay. One thing that always stands out, it's not in the book, but when I once went to her apartment for an interview, and I think I got there exactly two to three minutes early, and she had a doorman, and I get there, I say, you know, I'm going up to see Emily Weiss, he calls up, I can tell she says something. He keeps me waiting exactly like the three minutes until it's like, you know, whatever 1pm on the dot or whatever and then says you can come up. And I still to this day don't know if she needed those three minutes to like tidy up or put on some lipstick or go to the bathroom or drink water or she just wanted to assert To assert dominance. To assert dominance. And, you know, at the time I really felt like she was just asserting dominance, showing

me that like I had to wait until the appointed time for me to come up. But it's not Devil Wears Prada vibes. No, no, it's very different. It's very different. Because there was this sheen of relatability. She did have an assistant there, but her assistant was actually older than her, not double worth Prada, and was in another room, not following her around, but just clearly answering emails and doing scheduling and just working. She was dressed down. I remember she was wearing an oversized shirt and a skirt and house slippers.

And she had lingerie on a drying rack in a corner of her bedroom. Relatable queen. Like we all are. And her apartment was gorgeous and beautiful and expensive because it's Manhattan. But it wasn't like the loft in the movie Big or some sort of like Real Housewives McMansion. Like it was still a one-bedroom apartment that also had a little side office room, you know, like it was nice, but it wasn't something where you're like, I could never live like this, which was very Glossier. And a very Glossier cult-like element

is that her house or her apartment looked identical to the Glossier office, which she could see from her windows and to the store, which was about a block away. And it becomes that thing where it's like, is the Glossier aesthetic Emily or is Emily and Glossier so enmeshed that they are one? And I still don't know the answer to that. But I thought a lot about Ralph Lauren and his double RL ranch

or the castle Karl Lagerfeld owned where it's like you and your brand and your aesthetic are one in the same and there's no hard lines between your work life, your personal life, the way that you look, who your friends are. It's all combined in a way that is beautiful and seamless and convenient, but a little disconcerting.

Yeah. Oh my God. Completely. And I think it really speaks to the very cultish time that we're living in where a business leader is also supposed to be a mascot and a celebrity and an influencer and maybe even a politician. The boundaries separating our lanes have become so blurred. And so like, this also reminds me of Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift posted something during her era's tour where she was just like, this tour has become my entire personality. And it's like,

how can we dare to know who someone like Emily Weiss or Taylor Swift even really, really is? When at this point, after so much conflating of their brand and their self, they might not even know who they really are. You know, like I don't even fucking know. I think about Emily Weiss's schedule. And, you know, I remember asking her and her assistant, like, what is your day like? And she was just like, how many meetings do I have? She was like, Stacey, the assistant, how many? You're not going to get in trouble for like saying, and it was like every moment of her

life is blocked out. And in the evening, it's probably a lot of work related stuff, or like friends that are somewhat work related. And there, yeah, there is no distinction. How could you know, especially when Emily, like Taylor started this when she was young, Glossier was like her first company and more or less her first real job.

So it's like when you're starting that company in your early 20s, there is no distinction between your personal life and your professional life. They are the same thing. It becomes something where you have no memory of yourself before. Another thing that I thought was very cult-like is that same visit, the PR people could become this negotiation of like, what activity are we doing together? I wanted to go to this employee camp that they had every year and they probably smartly was like,

no, we don't want a reporter hovering around our employee offsite, which is again, very culty. But you're also like, kind of in the cult of Glossier. So you're like, but I want to go. Oh, I wanted to. I wanted the limited edition merch. Are you kidding me? But the real cult like thing is they were and the email is in the book and it's pretty funny. They're like, here's what we've decided. Wait for it. Emily would like you to come over and make a frittata with her. And just the idea that the most specific and mundane task should feel so elevated and special to do that you were chosen to me is very culty. And even it's again in this book and to this day, I'm like, I was the only journalist who

got into like who went to her apartment. I made a frittata. I was the trusted one. I'm not going to lie. Yeah. I'm like, I made the frittata. I'm not necessarily proud of that sort of status that I felt, but it's a way of like bringing you in.

Yes. Oh my God. I literally admire it. I'm like so overshary. And so like not only you can sit with us, but like, please, please sit with me that like I aspire to this level of mystique. I have zero mystique. I have such a sheen of desperation that I am constantly getting like pre broken up with by people after one day, even though I'm like, I swear, I'm about to leave the country and I'm not looking for anything serious. And they're still like, do not believe me. I think I have such a like, love me like me.

Like, I think it's something that people can just smell on you. I have zero chill, zero mystique. I'm trying to embrace it because I think it becomes helpful when something like you're trying to sell a book. Like I remember talking to my agent about like author photos once. And I was like, should I have black and white? And she was like, No, like, who do you think you are? You want something that's like looks like you and like that they look and they're like, if I saw this person at a restaurant, I feel like I could say hi.

She was like, you're not like Joan Didion in front of a Corvette or whatever. And I was like, oh my god. My number will be. Devastating. Can you talk about the role of Millennial Pink in the construction of this quote unquote cult? I mean, gosh, how much time do we have? the role of millennial pink in the construction of this quote unquote cult. I mean, gosh, how much time do we have? So millennial pink, I'm sure everyone knows,

but it was this like light pink, maybe a little brighter than like a ballet slipper color, but this color that kind of wasn't exclusive to Glossier. Acne Studios was using it. It was kind of on the cover of that book, Sweet Bitter, that was a bestseller at the time. It had this kind of like momentum going where it seemed sort of fashion but also cool and also like you were reclaiming pink but also kind of like guys were into it. Like there

was something very effortlessly cool that was hard to really put your finger on why you wanted it, but you wanted it. And Glossier started using that as their signature color, not in that anything that they were making was that color to put on your skin, but it was packaging, but it wasn't like blanketing the packaging. It was like some pink, some white, a tiny bit of black. And it felt just so cool and fresh and looked good on your counter and it was the same color as that pink bubble wrap reusable pouch and it just felt like the epitome of insidery things. Similarly, they made a sweatshirt and early on, I mean, speaking of Taylor,

Carly Claus was one of the first people photographed in the sweatshirt. At first it was like, could you even buy the sweatshirt? Then you could buy it, it was always sold out. Now they do so well with merch that I would say half the stores are often made up of Glossier merch. Timothee Chalamet, no idea if he's ever used a Glossier product, but he was photographed in

a millennial pink Glossier hoodie. And the term millennial pink was coined because of Glossier, no? No, it was coined by Ronnie Kylind, who was then a cut, a writer. And she was talking about it sort of more broadly about this color that was... Glossier was a key part of it, but it was this color that was everywhere and clearly sold to her generation. It wasn't little girl pink. It wasn't brash, bright pink. It was millennial pink.

It was cool and a little dusty. Yes, yes. Yeah, again, Emily Weiss just like mastering the art of restraint, mastering the art of opportunism, which is a key cult leader quality without seeming like an opportunist. Well, and what's more cult leader than having a signature color? Literally, I was going to say like, I can kind of relate to the mind fuck that is the conflation of your brand and yourself because I wrote my first book when I was 25 and the cover was yellow. And I forever then from then on was like, my favorite color is yellow, but I really don't think it is. It's just that that was my book cover color and I made

it like a whole fucking thing. And so there's something about a color story and just like building out this as Taylor Swift has like this whole era that people can really lose themselves in. Glossy did that a little bit too because once it came out with the perfume, which is called you, which is a very culty name, they started using pops of red. And it was very like a new era. Like now we're pink for Papa red. It was like a gradual expansion, which is again, like very like Rajneesh speaking of Colts where it was like, we're orange, but now we're magenta or something. Yes, this very like literal color coded uniform and a way to spot each other. The power of being in a room of all people wearing the same color as you.

Like the first cult that I mentioned in my book is the healthy happy holy organization where everyone wore all white. All white though for a cult a little on the nose. All pink with a spot of red. Genius. Genius. Yeah. So I want to like zoom out a little bit.

Why do you think that Glossier's cult following and everything it represented in terms of the identity resonated at the time of its launch and its skyrocket the way that it did? Like, what was happening in the world? Oh, I mean, I think millennials were really starting to come of age. They were probably 20s, mid 20s into early 30s. Instagram was coming out and we were becoming just literally more of a visual culture. And I think the direct to consumer brands were kind of marketing this idea that like, if we sell directly to you, we're giving you a better product at a better price. And you know, but also they're controlling the experience. So it's like you're never having to experience Glossier through Target or something,

you're only experiencing Glossier in Glossier approved ways. I mean, also just, I think people wanted a brand of their own. It was just that X factor of like hitting at the right moment when people were ready and wanted it. And I think also Instagram was overwhelming. There were too many identities to get inspiration from, to see on there and to pull from. And Glossier kind of like cleared the deck.

It was like, don't pay attention to any of those other influencers. Just be a Glossier kind of like cleared the deck. It was like, don't pay attention to any of those other influencers, just be a Glossier girl. That will simplify things. I think you're so right, because I have a good friend who shall remain nameless, but she was like, Glossier turns me

into the most basic bitch. And she meant that in, you know, in like sort of a confession, but also a positive way where it was like, sometimes you just want the cute, pretty thing that the other cute, pretty people want, and to just be en masse with them. Like she told me this when I was in her town and I was on my way to the Glossier store and asked her, you know, as one does when you're part of the same cult, like, do you want me to pick

you up anything? And she was like, actually, yes, I need more Milky Jelly cleanser. And it was just this thing of like, could I buy Glossier online? Yes. Could I buy Glossier in New York where I live? Yes. But I was in LA and I had to go see the vibe of the store there because I hadn't been yet and I needed to go commune with my people. I had to go check out the local, you know, precinct. Yeah. And so that kind of leads me to the question of like, who would you say quite specifically are Glossier's target followers and what makes them vulnerable to this specific quote unquote cult? I think that, you know, the way that like certain bands, I grew up going to a lot of like punk shows or whatever.

And so it's like, you'd go and there would be perennial 14 year olds discovering the band and feeling like they owned it for the first time. I think Glossier will always have those like 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 year olds that are like discovering it and are like, yes, this is for me. But then they will also have their classic core demographic of people who maybe move

on to a certain extent and start wanting fancier products or something for aging skin or whatever, but are never letting go of Glossier You perfume or Boy Brow or whatever their favorite products are. Yes. Yeah, and I also think just that feeling of like, we're inclusive, we want you, but also you are part of an elite group. It's this very delicate balance, linguistically, aesthetically, and there's always gonna be that desire, I think,

to fit in and to be endorsed, particularly by young women. Yeah, so we're talking about this delicate balance of all the good things about being in a cult, but also the kind of bad things about being in a cult. To really get a hold on the cult of Glossier, can you name a worst case scenario? What is the cult of Glossier at its worst? Okay what is the cult of glossier at its worst? Okay, the cult of glossier at its worst is feeling like your friends and family really

don't understand you and that your world of fellow glossier meme enthusiasts understand you more than like people in your life. I think that aggressive use of buy now pay later to afford your habit is a little intense. I was there on the day that the Manhattan flagship opened last winter. It was, I believe, the coldest day of the year. It was like 17 degrees or something really intense with a very strong wind. And I, like many people, were out there literally below freezing, waiting to be let in. And I've also been, again, waiting in line, a theme for Glossier in extreme heat where people that work there are coming out with sunscreen and face mist to try to ease the

burden of your weight. Stop it. That is truly the literal embodiment of girl bossing too close to the sun. Yeah. When you girl boss too close to the sun, you have to fall down to earth. You do. And right there waiting for you will be some Glossier SPF. Okay. One more question and then we're going to play a game. What's going on with Glossier right now? And do you think it's as culty as it originally was? The interesting thing is I think Glossier is in it's like, we're not a cult, we're actually sort of grownups era in terms of management.

So a lot of the people like Emily Weiss, who stepped down in mid 2022, she was the CEO, now she's not. I think that, you know, she's no longer there and a lot of the early hires who were like real inner circle, Alexis Paige developed a lot of the products that people are still obsessed with, like the Cleanser, Boy Brow. Annie Kreibbaum was an editorial genius who did a lot of the names like cloud paint and stuff that people love. Those people are no longer there.

And so I think a lot of the kind of, not just inner, but the people who had non-traditional backgrounds or were sort of young or newer in their careers, the people that really were responsible for that magnetic magic feeling that got people into Glossier are out and now, you know, like so many regimes, more traditional people are in. So a lot of the management is like people who went to business schools and have MBAs or people who worked at really big beauty companies or at like American Express or Cole Hawn or whatever. And their, you know,

party line now is sort of the adults are here, you know, like we're here to grow up and scale. We're a normal grown up company, which is like a little less culty, you know, it's less culty. And then the trade off is it's less delightful. Their last big product launch was, I want to say like late August, and it was foundation, which is fine. Foundation is like a really big seller in beauty. You know, people tend to be really loyal because if they find a foundation they like, they just stick with it forever. But foundation doesn't like surprise and delight you, you know, it's not like some kind of weird solid perfume that looks like it's in a shell,

like the Glossier You solid perfume or a future do this like glowy hybrid skincare makeup product. Like it's foundation. It's fine. I've heard it's a really good foundation, but it's just kind of normie. Totally. And I respect that it seems like Emily Weiss just doesn't really want to be a cult leader anymore.

Or does she just not want to be a beauty cult leader? Like, well, yeah. What's she moved on to? Well, she posted on Instagram not so long ago that she made soap out of her breast milk and was gifting it to a friend. Oh no. So like, oh God. Next Emily Weiss is going to like rear her head and be like full conspiratualist, like teal swan energy.

Scary. Yeah, TB continued, really buried the lead there. Oh my god. She's like gone from the cult of quasi-ad, to something like so much more sinister. Jesus Christ. Excited to see where that goes. Right, wait for part two. Yeah, exactly. Literally. Literally. Okay. Now we're going to play a little game. This is a classic sounds like a cult game. It's called culty quotes.

So I'm going to read a list of quotes to you. They're either going to have been said by Emily Weiss or by a more traditional cult leader from history. And you're going to have to guess Emily Weiss or cult leader. Okay. The first quote is, we are afraid of what will be in the room with us if we stop being busy. Cult leader? Correct. That was uttered by Teal Swan, which I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she's a slightly more niche alleged cult leader. She is the subject of the podcast, The Gateway and the Hulu docu-series, The Deep End.

She's a controversial new ager, alleged, alleged cult-ish leader. Okay, I realize you're probably gonna be really good at this because you've spent time with the quote unquote cult leader that we're talking about today. So maybe you might recognize these. You'll recognize her syntax probably more effortlessly. Second quote, you can make a million excuses for why something didn't

go well, but ultimately just fix it and get on with it. Emily Weiss. Correct. It's normally more fun when someone's really bad at this game, but I'm delighted that you're better at it so far. I might be bad. I mean, I don't know. I also am the kind of person that's primed to join a cult, so all of this seems very plausible to me. You're just like, I love and I'm inspired by these quotes. Yeah. Okay. Next quote. I love someone with something to prove.

Really could go either way. Cult leader? That one's Emily. I too love someone with something to prove. I mean, some of everyone, I guess. Yeah. Great for the plot. Okay. Next quote. I've learned that positive thinking and encouragement are essential for leadership in progress. Oh gosh. Cult leader? Yes. Well, another alleged. This was the- Okay, alleged cult leader. Yeah. Yes. This is Rich DeVos. That last name might sound familiar because of Betsy DeVos. Rich DeVos was one of the founders of Amway, the biggest and allegedly most pernicious multi-level

marketing scheme of all time. Okay. Next quote. This is really for anyone who wants to embrace the present and live in the now. It's about embracing constant change and who you are at any given moment. And that's often someone who's imperfect. It's both. Is it cult leader? That's Emily.

Ah, I'm screaming. I know, I know. It's such a culty statement. Like, oh my fucking God. Because I feel like she actually keeps it pretty tight with her like public statements. She probably does. That is a cult leader moment. Okay, next one. I don't hire a lot of number crunchers and I don't trust fancy marketing surveys. I do my own surveys and draw my own conclusions. Is that Emily? Wrong. That's Donald Trump. Oh my God, Emily, I'm sorry. I hope you're not listening to that.

I'm really sorry. I know, Donald, well, you always know something is Donald Trump because he's like, I trust my own brain. He does his own, yeah. Yeah, yes. He literally does not trust anyone else but himself. Yeah, it's very, I do my own research, adjacent.

1000%, which is like a QAnon rallying cry. Okay. Last quote. This is my personal favorite. I am who I am. I can't pretend to be somebody who makes $25,000 a year. That's Gwyneth Paltrow. You are correct. You win. You win. That Yes! You win. You win. That was all the points. I have a sideline in Gwynethology. So yeah, it's kind of my...

Oh yeah. Okay, so you're like an Emily Weiss son. I have a major in Glossier, a minor in Goop. In Goopology, yeah. Yeah, I was gonna say you're like a Glossier son, Goop Moon. A thousand percent, yeah. Okay, all right. Marissa, now it's time for the final question.

Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. What do you think the cult of Glossier falls into? I mean, because I'm such an enthusiastic and brainwashed member and feel like I'm doing great, I would say live your life. Me too. I completely agree. I like was really trying to eke some worst case scenarios out of you. And the worst case scenarios, like we can deal. Everyone can deal. Yeah, I mean, look, I'm glowy. I have friends in cities I've never been to visit.

Oh my God. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode. It was absolute pleasure. Divine. If folks want to keep up with you and your brainwashing enthusiasm, where can they find you? I mean, marissamilzer.com or just Instagram,

MarissaMilzer, one word. Cult of Instagram, amazing. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. ["Cult of the Year"] Cold tea! Thank you as well to our partner, All Things Comedy. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist

Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and the forthcoming, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I would really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts.