Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Heterosexuality

Episode Date: April 18, 2023

One of our fav episodes to date tbh. The promises include acceptance, stability, and fertility, but the reality = rigidity, conformity, and oftentimes outright shunning. Thinking about heterosexual culture as a "cult" might seem far out at first, but teasing it out with comedian Ashley Gavin, whose hilarious comedy special is viewable April 23 on YouTube, Isa and Amanda unpack sooooo much culty oppression that comes with our society's narrow standards for sexual expression (and also how the insidious "cult" of hetersexuality empowers some of the most f*cked religious cults of all time)! To support Sounds Like A Cult on Patreon, keep up with our live show dates, see Isa's live comedy, buy a copy of Amanda's book Cultish, or visit our website, click here! Thank you to our sponsors! Visit article.com/CULT for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Visit AURA.com/CULT for a 14 day free trial. Go to DAILYHARVEST.com/cult to get up to $65 dollars off your first box!  Get 20% off your first order of $40 or more at NextEvo.com/podcast and use promo code cult.  

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That's aura.com slash cult to sign up for a 14-day free trial and start protecting you and your loved ones. Certain terms apply. Doing your research before you buy means making better informed choices, especially when it comes to stress or sleep products like CBD. Upgrade your CBD. Go to nextevo.com slash cult to get 20% off your first order of $40 or more. That's 20% off $40 or more at nextevo.com slash cult. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable facts.

This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. I'm going to go with soaking. Yeah, I agree. That feels cultier to me because that's a level of denial. At least geographically, the hole is different. But if you're in the hole, you're not supposed to be in and you're like, well, I'm not moving. The T-Rex god of sexuality can't see you if you don't move. I also think it's just a lie because just putting it in is one thrust.

Yeah, you're right. That is a thrust. You can't not thrust to get in there. Yeah. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina and I'm a comedian touring all over the country. I'm Amanda Montell, author of the book, Cultish the Language of Phenaticism. Every week on our show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist.

From Flat Earthers to Trader Joe's diehards to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? We are so excited to discuss the cult of heterosexuality today. One of our favorite episodes to date, honestly. I mean, the promises include acceptance, stability and fertility, but the reality? The reality of the cult of heterosexuality is more like rigidity, conformity, and oftentimes outright shunning. The cult of heterosexuality actually pervades so many classic cults from history.

It's truly wild. We're going to get into it. And I know that thinking about heterosexual culture as a cult might seem kind of like a stretch at first, but today we're going to be unpacking so much culty oppression that comes with our society's narrow standards for sexuality. And even if you're straight, you're going to love it because you're going to realize, again, not all cults are bad like we discuss every episode, but this is one that we were all born into and it's not just heterosexuality. It's like a bit of the patriarchy, a little sprinkle of that nonsense.

And oh, buddy, is there a lot to talk about? Yes, and we're also doing it in a slightly different format today. We are so excited to be joined by comedian Ashley Gavin, who is famously a lesbian. She is a hilarious comedian as well, and her comedy special is coming out on YouTube April 23rd. She's going to be a co-host of sorts because there is just so much to discuss and unpack, but trust us, we are going to dive into the analysis like no other. And she's so funny. I just enjoyed this conversation so much.

It was not only hysterical to behold and to participate in, but it was also kind of awakening. Ashley is a live touring comedian and speaking of being live on tour, we actually have kind of an announcement. We're doing a live show very soon as well. Yes, we are going to drum roll, please. London! London Town. We are literally going to London Bay, so get out your notebooks because we'll come into town.

We are doing a live show in London and we are so excited. Yes, please join us on Friday, May 26, 2023 at 6.30pm at the Leicester Square Theatre in London. We are going to put on such a fun show for you culties with the help of games, audience participation, and of course, juicy analysis. We will deep dive into a much requested, never before discussed top secret cult to answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really love? Is it really love? We're going to really get into the accent.

Is it a live your life? A watch your back or a get the fuck out. Get the fuck out, get the fuck out, babes. Get the fuck out. That's a shirt right there, get the fuck out, babes. All live and uncut with tons of extras. You won't want to miss this one Friday, May 26, 2023 at Leicester Square Theatre in London. Tickets are on sale now at soundslikeacult.com

or at the link in our literal bio, babes. On Instagram. Now let's get into the cult of heterosexuality with our friend, our third, our mommy, Ashley Gavin. Do you mind introducing yourself to our guests and who you are? Yes, I'm Ashley Gavin. I'm a comedian. I also have podcasts. I'm here to talk about the true cult of heterosexuality. And I have a special that should be out April 23 on YouTube.

It's free. Hilarious. It's super gay. Thank you. I will say the special is for everyone. If you're not gay, you will like it. It's not a yeah. Most of our listeners are gay even if they don't know it.

It's one of those things. It's true. That's what I always say. I have a friend who's like, you either live long enough to find out you're gay or you die early. Being gay is like getting cancer. Yeah. In this society, you're more likely to get it with today's technology. Microplastics will make you gay.

Right, exactly. If you hit 100 at some point, you're going to be gay. Exactly. Well, especially because men die so quickly. They die so early. They do. And it's like if you want a life partner. A woman is a better investment.

Totally. How do you personally interpret the cult of heterosexuality and how do you connect to it? Being in the closet is how any gay person connects to heterosexuality. I think the only cult you're forced in at birth, you're born and everybody assumes you're heterosexual. You're living under the rules. You don't have access to what it looks like outside. Your family's probably, unless you're born into a gay family and not many people are.

But you know, more and more these days, gay family. That's actually a really interesting way of looking. I've never thought about that before. No, your parents are gay, but you're not necessarily gay. But I also think statistically, like most people are born into a heterosexual family because that's how babies are made. Exactly. Totally.

It's very hard to get a baby without heterosexuality. Well, I want to differentiate, it's very hard to get a baby without heterosexual reproduction. Well, that's actually the only way you can get a baby. Yeah. Well, I guess I'm thinking like a heterosexual act was involved. You can also inseminate. Well, even that's heterosexual, right? Technically.

I want sperm from my gay best friend, but in order to get his sperm, it will have to be in some part of my body either directly or in like a Petri dish. Yeah. So like either way, that sperm is hitting that egg and that's straight. And that's straight. And that's straight. But I think it's beautiful that like even though that's straight, that baby can be gay. Yeah.

Yeah, totally. This is an important conversation because I like the idea of talking about heterosexuality and homosexuality and whatever sexual labels we want to use as describing like certain acts, not certain identities. Yes. And that's what's culty to me. Yeah. Is that we think that having a sexual identity or orientation is just a fact, a stable truth.

It's science when that's not true. Yeah. Yeah. And it's even interesting to think about a sperm hitting an egg is straight when the sperm belongs to a gay person and the egg. You know what I mean? Like that's not actually straight. Yeah.

But we apply that label to it because we're in a cult. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like we're talking about sexuality here. It's funny because I'm trying to get out of my own cult of homosexuality. Yeah. And help people in the cult of heterosexuality realize that there's like so much common ground

here that's so fucking funny. Yeah. Particularly on the dynamics of heterosexual relationships. Yeah. The idea that there's like with gay people. A top and a bottom. It's always like a top, a bottom, a man one, a woman one, this that. And the other thing that is happening in your own relationship.

Yeah. You're applying shame to your gender non-conforming behavior within your. You know what I'm saying? Totally. And I want to be there to be like, you don't have to do this. And what you're doing is very funny. And it also happens in homosexual relationships as well. I love that.

And it really speaks to the fact that like I think society is coming around more and more to the idea that like gender is a construction. Gender is made up. It's a spectrum. Yeah. But so is sexuality. And kind of what I was saying before is like. I think we as humans think it's very natural to classify people and to like create a taxonomy

system to make life feel more manageable and predictable. It's like, oh, I get you. You're gay. Oh, I get you. You're straight. Yeah. But literally like the term homosexual was not even invented until the 1880s. Like it's made.

Yes. I can tell you that the term homosexual. Was that in word slot? I do talk about it in words. She has a book called word slot. I've heard of that book. You're quite accomplished, aren't you? Yeah.

I'm sorry that I am. And I am too by association. No, no, no, you're like really, you're really growing. It's a pleasure to see. Wow. The condescension. No, I'm not. I don't think she's, I know her so I know she's not being condescended.

For the listeners that are taking this too seriously. That was a bit. I'm messing around. Yeah. Have you guys heard of a joke? Yeah. I learned about it when I met you. Yeah.

It's true. I'm growing as we can see by this huge fucking couch that I call myself. No, honestly, I mean, like at this point we met a really long time ago. We met pre-pandemic and we've all changed. Wow. But like I've grown too. Like we met when words let just came out and like not that many people read that book at the time.

Yeah. And now I'm like, yeah. No, honestly. Yeah. Huge bomb. Just massive failure. Well, it did okay. But let's get back to gaze.

Like in the 1880s, I just want to say it was a Hungarian writer named Carl Maria Kurt, who came up with this term homosexual to contrast heterosexual. And it was not. And also like, aren't we like homo sapiens? Yeah. Is it just being a human kind of gay? But yes. Yes.

Yeah, totally. Like literally. I wonder if like Neanderthals were gay. Oh, absolutely. Well, there's all kinds of discourse around like looking into the role of gender in indigenous communities and like looking back. You know what I mean? Like I'm not the one.

Please do not come for me on this very, very poorly put together. Not super researched, but I do know I did research it at one point in Native American cultures, the idea of like a third gender. A two-spirit. Yes. Two-spirit. Yeah. And I think the other thing exists in so many non-white western societies.

There are some languages that don't even like have gender. Yeah. Yeah. And well, I speak a little Chinese and in Chinese, they don't even have gendered pronouns in the, in the verbal. Yeah. So like anyone who, no, that was not a soft flex. My Chinese is like terrible.

I cannot speak it anymore, but like they totally lack a verbal in the written, you can see it, but in the verbal, they totally lack gendered pronouns and they seem to be functioning just fine. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I'm getting that we're talking about this because like, I mean, there are languages that don't even have gender coded nouns, terms like actor, actress, waiter, waitress, those

don't exist. Yeah. There are entirely languages that don't have any gendered pronouns whatsoever. And it's weird that English only has one type of gendered grammar, which is our third person singular pronouns. My favorite example is there are languages that use a pronoun system called obviation, where a person's pronoun like he or she, it won't be gendered. It changes depending on how sensual they are to the conversation.

I'm in love with you. Oh, that's cool. Sorry. That's really. Is that weird? Yeah. I'm obsessed with you. Yeah.

I want one of these following me around. Yeah. No, it's nice. It's small. It tiptoes. Just throw you in a duffel bag and make everything I'm doing more important and smart. Yeah. Yeah.

Open the duffel bag and I'll be like, let me tell you about, but sometimes you just like close the duffel bag. No, it's true. It's true. Sometimes you're like duffel bag. Stop emailing me on a Saturday night. Yeah, that's all true. We want to know how the cult of heterosexuality has manifested like in your own life and how

you escaped it. Lesbians are so well up. There's two pieces of it. There's actual answer things. Well, the thing is lesbians can be very toxically masculine because the cult of heterosexuality, the way it's impacted gay people and gender. So this is all mixed together with gender, we can't talk about it without gender. But when I got to college, I went to a women's college, Brynmar.

It's different now. But when I was there, there were people that were emulating the role of like frats at the women's college. Oh. There were like kind of misogynistic. Toxic. Lesbians. Yeah.

Like playing that role. Yeah. And look, they play an important role, the frats. It can be very fun, but you know, there's problematic parts of that, obviously, everyone knows that. And I'm not saying these women were hazing people or drugging people, that's not what I mean at all. But like that little bit of like misogyny that is in heterosexuality, because we don't have

representation of like good, non-gendered relationships. Yeah. Like, look at me right now. I can't be saying this. You're wearing a backwards hat. And a camo shirt. It goes well with the aesthetic though. Thank you.

You're welcome. I know. I actually think I look great. I do look like a fuck boy. So like that part of it is like, we don't know how to navigate relationships without the gender and some of the problematic behavior within the genders. Right. Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? Yes. So like that trickles down into gay relationships. There are these tropes that like, even if you're gay and even if you theoretically reject gender binaries and sexual binaries, you're still going to slot into it. It reminds me a little bit of like when we were talking about the cult of corporate culture, how like you use language in the workplace and it's just like make it easier. Like you slot yourself into different things because it like simplifies your life.

I don't know the corporate examples, but... Well, it's because like you have your own idiolect, like your own way of using language when you're in your everyday life and then you drop that and put on a new linguistic uniform when you enter the office because you're like, it's like severance. You're like, this is my corporate identity now. Yeah. You're like, I'm going to circle back instead of like... Because it kind of explains why I was so bad when I had a real job, I could not be that

guy. Yeah. I could not be another person at the office. And with relationships, you do the same thing because society provides you with the template of heterosexual relationships and so everyone falls into this like system. And another piece of it is like, particularly with lesbians or women who date women or whatever labels you use, I think people understand what I'm saying. Women have been trained to be submissive.

So particularly with lesbian relationships, you are less inclined to hit on someone. So that results in two women staring at each other from across the bar for 45 minutes. No one makes a move. Someone goes home three years later. I literally did that the other day and my friend... I've been thinking about you for four years. I was at a bar and this like person was like looking at me from across the bar and I was looking at them and then I was like, should I go talk to them?

And my friend was like, yeah. And then I was like, I'm just going to go home. And I just like went home. Fuck you. Fuck you. And then my friend, without telling me, went over to them, gave them my Instagram. Great friend. They DM'd me and then we hooked up for like three to six weeks.

That's amazing. What an incredible outcome. I love the reality of that. No, that's great. But like that's another thing that even if you're gay, that heterosexual cult lives inside of you. I just try to be super direct and just always speak what I'm feeling in a thoughtful way as much as I can.

This doesn't make anything because like every time you say something, my impulse is to want to be like, that's so gay. And like it really just speaks to the fact that like, to your point, heterosexual culture and tropes dominate our society so much that like if you are along the spectrum of gender and sexuality, and I think most of us are, you're desperate for your own canon. You know what I mean? Yes. Especially as bisexuals where like, oat milk is bi, podcasting is bi.

It's so crazy to me how gay people do this and I'm using gay in a blanket way. Yeah. Everyone in the community, queer community, but like it drives me crazy because I just want to be like, plants are not gay. Yes. Everyone loves plants. You just lack community. Yeah.

You know what's gay? Lacking community. Yeah. That's so true. That's so true. Wow. That just got real. Yeah.

That said a shiver down my spine, which felt gay. A shiver down your spine. That's so gay. That's so gay. We're here at a queer bookstore in the Coltey state of Utah. What do you think is the coltiest thing about heterosexuality? How do you even decide on the coltiest thing? All of it.

The coltiest part of heterosexuality for me is their ability to detect just one thing deviating and then be like, it's making us gay. Their tendency to just find any small amount of gender non-conformity could be as utterly unacceptable is a little weird. Okay. So what promises or comforts do you think heterosexuality identity offers people? Well, it used to be money, right? Like the whole thing was money, like the whole concept around marriage, I guess it's more

specific to marriage than heterosexuality, but like family and money, you'll combine your estate with this other thing, you'll give them a cow and they'll give you the money. And so it's like a whole money. Yeah. Yeah. It's very transactional, very corporate heterosexuality. What do you think it provides now though? Like I feel like it's like people are still obsessed with like getting engaged and married.

Yeah. I think it's the feeling of meaning. But again, that's more marriage, which gay people have now for a minute. Yeah. We'll see. Hopefully we'll continue to have it. Yeah. But even like gay weddings feel straight.

Yeah. There is something very strange about weddings. Dude, we did that episode. I find it so cool. Well, because I feel like weddings have a dress code and the dress code is like inherently straight because it's like tuxes and dresses. I want to do, if I do a wedding like that, it's going to be a gender free experience. Like men and women on both sides.

It's very strange that they segment everyone based on what like a church rule of separating genders like back in the day. I don't even know what that's. Yeah. Well, I mean, we always talk about how sort of like excusing really problematic culty behavior under the guise of tradition is something that is found all over this culture. Yeah. And it like should be questioned.

Like, why can't everybody, this is going to sound so culty now, I'm like, why can't all the wedding guests sit in a circle? Yeah. Yeah. And spill their blood into the urn. And then, yeah, cut their hands into a blood oath. Yeah. I don't know why.

That's weird. But like my cousin got married and her brother couldn't be on her little, she didn't have a sister. She didn't, you know what I mean? And her brother is just an usher. That's fucked up. They couldn't just decide to like make it. Yeah.

I think it's like, why didn't that even enter her straight brain? That her brother could stand up there. Yeah. Because the groom had nine brothers. So like not actually nine. That's straight. But like, because there were so many men on his side, they couldn't add another man. So he just couldn't be part of the party.

So he was just an usher. Oh, that's sad. Yeah. My brother's getting married and I'm one of his groom's. Right. Yes. Exactly. And that's the way that's what God intends.

It's very strange to me. I mean, I want to get married. Like that's something I want to do, but I definitely am like trying to totally get rid of every tradition and see which ones I actually think are like fun. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like so much work to like unlearn things. Yes.

But what else do you think? Yes. What else do you think like the cult of heterosexuality offers people like? Fertility. I mean, that's obviously like really, it offers a blueprint for raising a family and it doesn't work anymore. Yeah. Capitalism not working.

None of this makes any fucking sense anymore, but the structures are already there. That's why so many bi people do end up in heterosexual relationships because it just like is easier. I feel like everyone thinks that bi women just like aren't gay and it's like, if you could choose to be oppressed versus not, it's like, that's hard. That's a hard choice to make. Yes. Yes.

Statistically also, I will say, maybe not anymore, but statistically a bi woman is going to have an easier time finding a straight man than another bi woman or a non-binary person or a lesbian. So like that alone, statistically, you're more likely to end up in a, I've dated so many bisexual women. Yeah. They're like kind of my, that's like kind of my, I just always end up with a bisexual woman.

Oh, I love that because there's so much biphobia among lesbians. Yeah. I think it's so fucked up. First of all, you're shrinking your dating pool and bi people are just objectively hotter. And also. They're just like very hot. Because we're trying to be hot to everyone. Exactly.

We're universally hot. And also you have so many, you have such a wide array of sexual experiences as a bi person. Can I share a quick little statistic with you since we're talking about statistics? According to Stonewall's Rainbow Britain report from 2022, nearly 30% of Gen Z identify as something other than straight. Yeah. So the pool is broadening.

I've heard it between 20 and 30. And the reality is most people are not monosexual. Like most people are probably in some kind of spectrum. It's like really sad to me though, whenever I like leave the bubble of LA or New York of like how many people I meet that are like so clearly like at least bisexual, but are like in this like heterosexual relationship, but not even exploring. Well, it's an internal thing. Everyone tries to look.

We don't know whether or not this person is gay in his own time, yada, yada, yada. It is problematic to try and it's like so hard because the problem is we live in a fucking society that's not good for people. So then when you speculate on how they're feeling, then you're the problem because you're like, oh, they might be gay. It's different when it's yourself. Yeah. That's another thing that straight people don't know about being gay.

It is different when it's you. You can be literally the most accepting person on the planet, but the big hurdle of accepting yourself for anything, not just being gay, that's like kind of a culty thing at the end of the day. Yeah. Like you can't get around the thing in your brain. Yeah. So you, yeah.

And the connection to evangelicalism and Christianity and stuff, I want to talk more about that because so many more classic cults from history have aimed to control members' sex and sexuality. You have conversion therapy. It doesn't get cultier than that. There are sex cults like the Children of God, which abuse children. Sex and sexuality are so fucked in so many cults and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on how the larger cult of heterosexuality in general emboldens other potentially more serious cults.

Oh yeah. I didn't even think about that. You're so right. Because I think the idea of shunning, which you see in a lot of cults, that is OG straight shit. Yeah. Like heterosexuality, you'll cut off a member of your family because they're gay. Yeah.

There's almost nothing else that you cut off a member of your family for. Right. Yeah. It's always less, but before like dating outside your race or dating outside your religion. Yeah. But really being gay is like. It's the main thing. The main thing that your family will cut you off.

Even when people have like fights about money and stuff like that, I don't know how to rephrase it. Well, money stabilizes a family too in a weird way. Yeah. It fucks it up, but you stay together because of the money. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there's still some sort of civility around it.

Like, oh, like Uncle Bob fucked us over with like the family business, but it's like he's still family. Whereas like if someone's gay and they're not accepted in the family, it's like, oh, we don't talk. We don't talk about them. It's like Voldemort. Yeah. You don't talk about it.

I have a crazy Aunt Maureen. Yeah. I have a crazy great Aunt Maureen that is just a gay woman. And it's like, people just referred to her as crazy. She lived with this other woman. You know, I don't know if they had a sexual relationship, but like it's just so fucked up that no one had the compassion in my family to be like, she's not crazy, she's gay, dude. Yeah.

And that speaks to the language aspect too, because when we don't have labels that are like not charged, not emotionally charged labels, not like we're trying to insult someone by saying they're gay. But when we don't have that terminology like, oh, she's gay, then we end up just writing off people as deviant or like, you know, it's like before there was a lot of awareness about autism, we would just say like, oh, that person's weird, like that person's a freak. I have a lot of people who DM me about whatever neurodivergent thing they have going on a lot of autism.

Yeah. And whenever I mention it, they seem totally stoked to just be involved, like to be represented in the conversation. We can all poke fun at each other's differences as long as you're using the right words and you're not punching down. Yeah. Exactly. And that's like the thing about like comedy.

You can walk the line. Like that's the funny part. Right. Just be respectful. Exactly. I'm not derogatorily, but everyone knows I'm like messing around. Yeah. Well, that's because you're wearing it backwards.

Yeah. But even some of my best guy friends who are totally straight, I do not give a flying fuck if they're like, gay, because what they're really doing is a commentary on like probably toxic masculine. Yeah. So it's fine with me that they do that. Exactly. Let's all just agree that the word gay is bad unless you like our Trump supporter.

Well, exactly. Okay. So context is everything, right? I mean, anything without context and context is so much harder to pick up on online. And that's why like in conversation, like we could be talking to someone who has very different views than us and we will be able to pick up on their energy and their intonation and what they're saying. And so on the internet, things get so fraught and so toxic because there's just like the

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but people cling to these labels and these boxes. I wonder why you think people are so obsessed with putting people in boxes. Yeah, I think within the gay community, we get roasted for all the different labels, which I think is actually kind of fair. Yeah. Also, there's a lot of exclusion within the queer community. There's so much homophobia or biphobia within the queer community. I think the labels are useful in the context of trying to figure out what you want.

Maybe you're on a dating app. Maybe you're talking to someone for the first time. Maybe you're looking for a sense of community. That is super helpful to have something that you can Google. But the obsession around label is cult-y to me a little bit. It's such an obsession with seeking out community because you're clearly trying to feel some sort of... Yeah.

Totally. I think it's funny too how some queer people will almost do the full loop and be like, I've done every label in the world, now fuck labels, but at the same time, they're not truly done with labels. The new label of, no, that label has gone so hardcore that it's a label. Yeah. Yeah, no labels. I'm even that way.

I own bisexual, but really, I just don't care and wish we could not talk about it. But at the same time, I know it's important too. But then what I think is funny is that some queer people will be like, fuck labels. Labels are oppressive. And they'll be like, but I'm a Virgo son, a Sagittarius, a Leo, I think. We still want to classify people, and that's why astrology is so meaningful to queer people, I think. Astrology is the new religion.

Yeah. In a world where how could you possibly believe in God, you need a more free-flowing kind of... But that's why I think the word queer, I use it all the time because it's all-encompassing. But I also, like you mentioned earlier, I like to use the word gay as all-encompassing. And I wish more people did, but if I'm in a very East-Side comedy scene and I use the word gay in a joke and then someone will come up to me after and be like, aren't you bi?

I'm like, please. Yes. Please. Let me live. We're in a funny place with labels, and I blame the cult of... You think that's fun? You think that's fun? No, I'm funny, funny.

And not funny. Haha. And not funny. Haha. Not funny. Haha. Yeah. No, no, I think we're...

We're in an odd place with labels, and I blame the cult of heterosexuality. Like, I will still always blame the cult of heterosexuality. Well, that's why we need them, because if we didn't have heterosexuality, we would all just be fucking each other the way we want to fuck each other, and we would never talk... Like, Game of Thrones style. Like, Game of Thrones style. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. That's what we're aiming for. Yeah. The Red Wedding or whatever that was. If heterosexuality were not there, we wouldn't have to find something to hold our... That's the standard. Yeah. Ultimately, the labels are to reflect against this thing that everyone assumes that you

are. Yeah. If you don't say anything else. And it's funny because heterosexual people, wow, I said that, like a gay pastor, the heterosexual... Yeah. No, I love that. You gotta flip it on its head. Yeah.

So ridiculous. Talk about the heterosexuality. Yeah, I will. They... The thing is, they're like, well, why do you even have to come out? I have to come out because if I don't do this, everyone is going to think I'm like you. Maybe not me personally, but you two, absolutely, people are going to think you're straight. And like, if everyone were totally accepting and totally cool, we wouldn't have to do any

of this. We wouldn't have to come out. But you are not cool. You are the fucking problem. Like please stop gaslighting me and just being like, why do I have to come out? Yada, yada, yada. You know what I'm saying? Yes.

That is gaslighting. I never thought of it that way. It's also so fucked up right now because there are so many people who are totally accepting. So you do feel like... You do. You feel like... You do feel weird. Like why should you have to come out?

And also, like, I feel like it's also our generation. Like I do think younger generations right now, like they're not in all areas, but like... Yeah, totally depends geographically where you are as well. I have a friend who's like a high school teacher now and like, he's like, I have many queer students and it's not even like a fact of them like coming out at all anymore. Like they're bullying each other about other things now. It literally is that thing where like one of the students was like insulting this other student, but respecting their pronouns.

Like... They're poor. Yeah. This guy gal, poor as fuck. Yeah. It is so crazy. This year is so fucking poor. Yeah.

Yeah. It just goes to show how like all this culty shit is like so arbitrary and you can truly create a cult out of anything. And I think we're just like in this very fraught place in terms of sexuality in society right now where we're like coming around to it, but we're not quite there yet. And those growing pains have really fucked with us. Yeah. And I think everyone calm down.

Yeah. Just please calm down. Literally. We're all on the same team. We're all trying to advance society to a place where we can be without these labels. And also there are people who are ahead of it and people who are behind it. So let's just all have passion for one another in conversations. That's why I think it's so counterintuitive when like someone within the queer community

will attack someone else in the queer community because I'm like there are so many worse people out there. Like you are focusing on the wrong person. Even someone like Ellen, I think is such a great example of like I cannot think of anyone who's done more for the queer community in terms of being accepted by mainstream people. True. Yeah. And also even more is coming out about like she's a problematic person, but she did do

a lot for the queer community. Right. And so that's like and so people when you talk about Ellen, people will be like, yeah, yeah. It's like you can acknowledge dude for sure. She did a lot. She's an asshole. Yeah. For sure.

But it's like if we were not allowed to appreciate the accomplishments of every asshole or bully, how many artists would we have to choose for that? You literally would not be allowed to listen to music. Very few. The straight community is way better about their assholes. They really let their assholes do whatever the fuck they want. But in the queer community, we hold everyone to such a high standard because we're good people.

Yeah. But like it is a little excessive. Yeah. But like there is gray area here. You do not have to like this person or consume their work if that feels wrong to you. But you can also be like the work they did back then. That was extremely valuable. Yeah.

And also I don't know this for a fact, but I would feel that Ellen probably wasn't always an asshole. But then she became fucking like loaded, super rich and super famous. It's like, yeah, no matter whether she's gay or not. Like she just became like one of the biggest personalities in America. And most people who get to that level become assholes. Yeah. For sure.

We already feel it happening to us. I know. Well, there's studies on this. There's studies that literally power will change the chemistry of your brain. Whoa. Really? And whatever. Yeah.

How do you prevent that from happening? I don't know. I think you just have to constantly remind yourself that it's happening. Oh yeah. Like I was, I put this on my fridge because I feel like with stand up. A magnet on your fridge absolutely will prevent it. No. It's an impore mental health situation.

It wasn't a magnet. I wrote it on the whiteboard. Oh, okay. And it's an affirmation. Yeah. And it's, nobody is better than me and I am no better than anybody because my roommate told me that once because I feel like with stand up, there's like so much ego involved. You start early and you're like, I've been doing this for this amount of years and like

they just started and they got this and they got that. And I'm like, I can't be so angry because it's like fucking with my mind. I don't even look. Yeah. I just, I have just tried so hard not to look to prevent it from popping. Not looking is a whole, whole time job. Oh yeah. I do.

I do. I do. Not out of spite, out of compassion because I want to be excited for what people have going on. Yeah. And therefore I can't allow myself to get into the competition of it. As soon as you leave, I'll mute in everybody. We're going to mute you first.

Yeah. No, but I think it's, it's just like not natural to be exposed to. No, it's not. That many people, that much information. It's like our ancestors had literally three people in the village to compare themselves to. And now we have the whole entire. We're always just getting fire time stories.

Yeah. He always gets to perform at fire time stories and I haven't booked fire time stories in four weeks. And it's like, I'm killing it at the watering hole, but no one sees that because it's so far away. Yeah. Oh my God. It's like, I got the deer all last week.

That's why I couldn't do fire time stories for a while because I was skinning the deer. Oh, that is fun to watch. No, but it's true. It's unnatural. Yeah. You should turn it off. Yeah. I like wake up.

I hate this. I like wake up to Instagram and it's just like people's bits, people's bits of this. They're flexing and also I just try not to, my personal policy is I try not to flex. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, there's no need for me to, this is so not part of the, no, I love it. I mean, it's an important deviation, but I do to connect it back.

Like we were talking about what's, yeah, so I want to see how she does it. We were talking about what is natural versus unnatural and cultish religions will, gay people are unnatural. Yeah. Instagram. I was going to say some, some cultish religions like fundamentalist, evangelicalism, Mormonism will try to argue that being homosexual is unnatural and a sin. What do you think is the most unnatural thing about the cult of heterosexuality?

Okay. So this is a little bit, my friend has a joke about this. I'm going to credit him, Sam Morrison. Oh, I love Sam Morrison. Yeah. He's the best, but the idea of a man fucking a woman, disgusting is actually a huge, they are huge and women are so small and perfect like don't, don't come on her, don't come on her, I was trying to tell you this, I was like, it is a beautiful pure thing when women

fuck. And you were like, I, my girlfriend had sex the other day. We were so tired. We just literally laid there and like just across masturbated fingered each other and it was so lame, but awesome that I was like, I love how tired this is. Like I love how just relaxed, well, I also think you immediately going to like men are so big and women are so small. That's like American heterosexuality too, which is even more straight than other countries.

Yes. Right. The delineation of the genders and body type and stuff like that. And like everyone being into like super tall men because like I'm from Columbia and like a tall man is five, three, you know, and like I always, I literally, there was a while where I literally thought I was like just gay. And then I went to Columbia and I hooked up with a guy in Columbia who was of my height. Right.

That's right. My girlfriend's into really small men too. Yeah. And I was like, oh, like we just, we're in an open relationship if that's not totally good. I was like, we just like aligned heights and then it was like a puzzle. Yes. Yes.

It's like, what is that? You know, Hedvig and the Angry Inch and how they have that song about Petrarch or whatever. What is that myth about how like romantic love was created because like in the beginning everybody was like attached to their soulmate in one body and then like some curse happened and everybody was divided, but like we're also supposed to be the same size. I mean, some of the best sex I've ever had with a man was also with a five, six Italian short king. Yeah.

Yeah. It's just like there's that piece of it. And also like this is another one where you might tell me this is socialized. So it's not true, but have you seen men with their friends? They love each other so much. Yeah. They know each other better. They really connect.

That's so beautiful. Like have sex. Yeah. And women too. Yeah. How on earth do men and women communicate with each other? It makes no sense. Yeah.

They're speaking totally different languages. Yeah. And then you're supposed to live with that person forever. Yeah. I also think that's like a classic like thing that all queer women go through of like being in love with like their best friend and like not realizing it until like years later. That's why you were like so intimate with them in a way that wasn't just like friendly. Yeah.

You know. God, I love that. When I was in the closet, that shit was just like snuggling. Yeah. Yeah. I studied abroad and then I like stayed for an extra three months. So I lived abroad for nine months and there was this girl that I like interned with and she was French and we like literally had word obviously like so into each other.

But she was like dating this guy long distance and he came to visit and then I was like had a friend from college who I like used to hook up with and he came to visit me. And I remember the weekend he came to visit. Like I think he just like expected that we were going to hook up and like in my mind I was like, yeah, we're going to hook up. I literally like didn't talk to him all weekend because the three of us were hanging out. And I was like, why is he bothering me so much? Like he's just so fucking annoying and like I made him sleep on the couch and then after

he like left, I was just like, okay, whatever. And then I kept hanging out with her all weekend. We nothing ever happened. And then like two years later, I finally like came out and then I what zapped her and I like was like, Hey, what's up? Like how are you? And she was like, I'm good. I'm gay.

Oh, nice. Yeah. Send me a picture. I had like cutter hair. I was like, okay. So I wasn't crazy. Yeah. Like that was gay.

You know, it is so funny. Like even just like having this whole conversation, I'm having awakenings because like it is confusing, especially in female friendships, the way that they're socialized in this culture because like they are so intimate. And there are these power dynamics that feel kind of romantic and relationshipy and like I remember at my theater camp of a hot bed for a gay shit. I remember like this girl at the time, I just thought like I worship you, but like worshiping someone to that degree.

I was like, I want to room with you. I want to be in a bunk bed with you. Like it was just thinking back on it. Like it was gayer than I thought. Yeah. Yeah. I have another unnatural one for heterosexuality, the escalator relationship. What is that?

Like we were a village situation as humans for a super long time. And then heterosexuality in the nuclear family or whatever, like created a separation within our communities. Yeah. It's also true that those family divides have to do with capitalism and competition. And this is like mostly Western too, but like the idea that you're seeing someone for a certain period of time, therefore you get engaged, therefore you have kids, therefore you split a mortgage, yada, yada, yada, very straight and totally unnatural.

And that's why like 50% of marriages end up in divorce because people aren't like checking in periodically. And I feel like that's something that the queer community has taught the heterosexual community. 100%. Everyone should be gay to learn about relationships. Yeah. Because like sure, a lot of queer relationships, I feel like they do dive in very quickly,

but it's because it's like, if you connect, you connect, but they also check in and they can also end on a dime. Oh yeah. Yeah. You've just had to like completely rewrite that script. Like you call it the escalator relationship. I call it the conveyor belt. It's just like easy to get on that conveyor belt and that's why I just don't get on it.

Yeah. I don't want to be on it. I just don't get on it. Yeah. I just walk next to that conveyor belt. Yeah. Be single. I have a huge couch.

The couch is sick. Is it brand new? Is that why you keep talking about it? Yeah. When I got my big sick couch, I was also talking about it all the time. Yeah. Oh my God. I'll show you a photo.

Yeah. We're getting a photo of your couch like your kid. You're told since birth that that's the only norm and that that's the expectation and you're just raised in it and you think that's the only way of living your life until you grow up and you have some cognitive dissonance and realize there's more to it. I think growing up in a cult and growing up hetero is the same thing. Hetero sexuality is just a cover for everyone that doesn't want to admit that they're either by your pan.

You cannot tell me that there isn't a single best friend that you have that you wouldn't romantically just give a kiss and a snuggle to. That's insane to me. You don't have to have full-on sex with them, but man, you don't want to snuggle with your best friend. So we're going to play a game that we often play on sounds like a cult. It's called what's cultier. This one, of course, has to do with the cult of hetero sexuality.

We're going to read you two scenarios and you're going to decide what's cultier. Straight male sports players slapping each other's asses in the locker room because it's not gay. It's tradition. Or straight girls having intimate slumber parties where they cuddle and maybe even kiss under the guise of just girly things. Okay, I think the cultier one is the baseball because at least with the slumber parties from my perspective, there's like a moment of freedom in there.

Yeah. Like, oh my God, I love slumber parties as a kid. Like, oh my God. It was the one gay refuge of my entire existence. I could just be kind of gay in that moment. But do you think men feel that way in locker rooms? I do, but it's sad that it's just the butt slap. Yeah, like they don't cuddle.

They don't cuddle all night. They don't end up kissing. I don't think. And you were making out at your slumber party. Yes. I had a slumber party themed 31st birthday party this year. That is so fun. Yeah, it was fun, actually.

Oh, that's really fun. Yeah. Friendship bracelet making. I know. I was like, oh my God, I want to do that. You sure? I'm going to do that. It's a really easy theme.

Everybody wore pajamas. I actually wore a laundry. You didn't have a sleepover? No. We just stayed up till like three and then went home. Yeah. I stayed till super late because I stay out late. Yeah.

You won the whole party. But everybody left. Yeah. That's really cute, though. Thank you. I love that. Yeah. Okay.

What is culture? Soaking to avoid premarital sex. Jesus Christ. Or doing anal to avoid premarital sex. Also, just for those at home who might not know what soaking is, but we have talked about it before. It's one like you put the penis in the vagina, but you don't thrust. Right.

Because as long as you're not thrusting, even if your friend is shaking the bed. Yeah. Yeah. And we both learned about it because of Mormons. Yeah. That's a Mormon loophole. Yeah, they are both so, so culty. I don't know.

I'm going to go with soaking. Yeah. I agree. That feels cultier to me because that's a level of denial, at least geographically the whole is different. Yeah. But if you're in the hole, you're not supposed to be in and you're like, well, I'm not moving. Yeah.

Like the T-Rex God of sexuality can't see you if you don't move. You know what I mean? I also think like it's just a lie because like just putting it in is one thrust. Yeah, you're right. That is a thrust. That's a thrust. You can't not thrust to get in there. Yeah.

I love how soaking is like, it's like a quiet place. It's like, if we don't move, then we won't get too much of it. It's like literally maybe like God won't hear us having sex. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love how that question is also just like a sneaky way of asking what's called to your Mormonism or Catholicism.

Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I actually had that thought. Mormonism is just objectively, I mean, Catholicism is pretty culty, but at least Catholicism is sort of attempting to come around. Mormonism, literally. Pope said being gay is not a crime.

Look at that. Oh, nice. Recently. Oh, well, the Mormons say that it's okay to be gay as long as you don't act on it. No, but they like don't, I don't know where I heard this. So don't quote me on this. Was it you who told me maybe there's like different levels at this like Mormon club where like, no, no, it was, I did tell you this.

I learned this because I gave a talk at a conference for ex-Mormon sex educators. And this one guy told me that like, some organization, I don't know fucking who organized like a secret event in a hotel where they like rented out three floors. And on the first floor, the gay Mormon men could go and hug. And on the second floor, the gay Mormon men could go and kiss. And on the third floor, it was like all bets are off. And it was like this secret one guy up there alone being like, come on. Yeah.

So wait, what did they claim was the the okayness of that it was maybe that they were close to hell? I don't know that it was that it was like being organized by like some people in the church. So it was like a safe space to like get out your jollies and then go back to your wife. Yeah. I mean, that's just like, I have a lot of ex-mo listeners. And I think just Mormonism is really next level stuff.

Yeah, because they also, I think they also actively from a couple of friends experiences like try and recruit gay women to come in through like the other gay women that are closeted and in it. Well, according to Mormonism, what I understood from talking to these again, like ex-Mormons turned sex therapist is that according to Mormonism, women don't even have a sexuality. I mean, it's a depression of women's sexuality is just like, we're going now to a biological thing and, you know, again, this can get mixed up and please understand the empathy that I'm coming at this with, but like, I think cis men tend to have a higher sex drive than

cis women. And I think that's kind of why with gay men, it's easier to organize the sex hotel with gay women. They would have to get coffee. But you know what I'm saying? Like, there's also the emotional component. I think it's just easier to suppress the sexuality of women. Maybe I'm totally on base about this. It's also just on brand. Like, we just suppress women's individuality in general and their agency.

Maybe the sex drive isn't even a part of it at all. Maybe it's just that women have just been suppressed. So it's just easier to. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Speaking of Mormon shit, what's cultier? Shameless conversion therapy or Mormon marriage counselors referring to couples where one spouse is gay with the euphemism mixed orientation? Mixed orientation. Yeah.

I think the shameless conversion therapy is more culty because at least on the other one, they're acknowledging that they're in a cult. I feel like when you say you're mixed orientation, you're like, none of this makes any sense, but we're going to keep doing it anyway. Maybe that's actually more culty in a way. Because it's not just fucking naming it. Yeah. I feel like mixed orientation is just another way of saying that they're like, bye. I know. Mixed orientation feels like maybe the future of what we say about everybody.

Or it feels like it feels like the 70s version of it. Yeah. Like a couple that was like married and cookie cutter, but they were like, we're mixed orientation. Like swingers, you know, like swingers were just like hand and open relationship. Can I read one fun fact about conversion therapy? Read it out. Okay. Okay. Okay. So basically after this term homosexuality was invented in the 1880s, if everyone remembers

that, homosexuality was then pathologized by psychologists like Freud, who speculated that it was due to a result of inadequate parenting. Hell yeah, it is. My mom is listening to the talk. It wasn't until queer rights groups in the 60s and 70s demanded justice that homosexuality was not seen as a psychiatric condition. There is no scientific evidence that your sexuality can be changed with therapy, but conservative religious groups still argue that it's possible continuing to lean on that

19th century pseudoscience as justification. Watching converted people preach the conversion is one of the saddest things I've ever seen. Yeah. So is the gayest motherfucker too. I don't know how they find that, the gayest things like me, like it's like a me, it's a lesbian. I love sucking dick dude. Well, cause it's like, it's not conversion.

It's like fear dude, cause they're literally like electrocuting them and then they're like scared to be electrocuted again. So it's like, yeah, of course, like if someone electrocuted me until I was like, I love sucking dick. I'd be like, I love sucking dick. Yeah. Yeah. It's just Pavlov's dog.

Yeah. God. It's a whole tier homophobia or biphobia. Well, biphobia is really interesting. It's so weird to me. Homophobia I understand because it's like, I hate gay people. No, no, I understand it because she says with a camo shirt on. You got to get them.

But that's from an upbringing. That's like from a lack of understanding that's been socialized biphobia. You're like probably okay with gay people, but you're not okay with bi people. It's such a choice. It's such a, yeah, it's such a weird thing. Do you think it comes out of like a sense of like jealousy that like a bi person like has a choice? I think a lot of gay people have had a really tough time and a lot of trauma and older generations

of gay people, the people who came out, this is, I'm just theorizing, a lot of them were not straight passing. If you could pass straight, you probably were kind of keeping your gayness on the DL. And I think we mix gender into this a little bit, but a lot of bi people feel like they're a little more straight passing. You know what I'm saying? And this is all socialized, so keep in mind like this is not for everybody. Like what I'm describing is not everybody and I know that.

I'm not super straight passing, more so than other people, but I'm not super straight passing. I have dated super straight passing people and I think there's a bitterness from people who have faced a lot of homophobia and frankly, like been very brave and come out and done a lot for the community. There's a bitterness against people that have the privilege of being straight passing. But I think we need to move past this. Well I also think that like, what's the spectrum thing? Kinsey.

Kinsey scale. I also like, I forgot what it was called. I also love this Kinsey scale. I actually do though, because I feel like when you look at it, you can see that statistically you're less likely to be straight or fully 100% gay. Yeah, for sure. I am 100% gay. And that's great.

But I do think that at least in LA, something that I've seen is a lot of like women who lean gay, but are still like maybe 5% bisexual or something like that, or like, I'm gay, I'm gay, I'm gay. Because when there was a lack of like, spectrum community, people were like, I have to pick one or the other. And then you made an investment in your identity, you come out, it's a lot to then be like, oh fuck, I still kind of like men. Like I understand straight panic is terrifying, bi-panic is terrifying for all the work you've

done. Well that's the sunk cost fallacy mentality that shows up. Cost fallacy on being gay. Really? Honestly. No it is. And that's why the binary is so culty. It's so stupid because like, okay little bi-love, bi-people are the people that are going to

move the queer movement forward the most because bi-people are in the homes of straight women and straight men coming out in the middle of their marriage, being like, you have to honor my identity, no matter what, no matter what, I am bi, you have to acknowledge it, don't erase me. That is the ultimate like disruption. Yeah, exactly. It's disruptive. It's everywhere.

But I think that's, I don't know if this is going to sound biphobic, but like, there are a lot of bi-women who do choose to just like, not embrace their bi-ness, but talk about it all the time. Like I have a joke that I, like I'm like, a lot of queer people don't like bi-women because we're only 50% gay, but we talk about it 100% of the time. And so I'm like, I'm out here in these streets, you know what I mean? Like I'm putting in the work and I think everyone should put in the work. I think everyone should put in the work too, have sex with me, but I think what you're

saying is, it's not biphobic, it is just fucking hard to be queer, period, and it's okay if in your own time you are not fucking women, you're dating a man, you're comfortable there. I hope you're also extremely happy in your relationship because then it's fine. But if you're lacking for something, then try, it is safe, well hopefully it's safe. But like it's okay, like join us, you know? In the words of co-leaders from history, join us. But I hear what you're saying, it's just nuanced is all it is. Yeah, yeah.

And then there's like always the conversation of like people taking up space within like marginalized communities that aren't like experiencing the marginalization. But there's always going to be someone out there in a worse position than you. I'm a cis white lesbian. I experience homophobia in a very specific way. I've never experienced biphobia, you know what I'm saying? My girlfriend certainly has. But like I would never make her compare what she's going through to me because I'm never

going to compare my experience to like a black trans woman. Yeah. I'm just not going to do that. I'm not like honestly eye-opening because like I don't talk about my bisexuality like as much as you like. I only talk about it so that people know because I am like straight presenting and I'm like hello. Right, exactly.

And that's why we have to, again, that's why we have to come out. Yeah. You want people to know that you're bi. Yeah. So that they fuck you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I guess, yeah. No, I guess like part of it is like, I guess I don't get to own it because. Yes, you do. You can own it too, especially once that shit opens up. You fuck him bi sexually and my sister's dating a bi guy. She says it's the best sex of her life. Yeah. Straight sex.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And this is like has totally come full circle because at the very, very beginning of this conversation, we were talking about how like I like the idea of not talking about labels like bisexual, homosexual, whatever in terms of your identity. I like talking about it in terms of the act because that's so liberating. It's like, then I don't have to be bisexual enough to have bisexual sex with a man. Yeah.

You know? Yes. So every sex I'm going to have is just bisexual. Yeah. Yeah. Because you are bisexual. It can also feel bisexual. Yeah.

More so than other times. Yeah. Like that felt bisexual to you and whatever that means for you. That's fine. Yeah. But then also like there is no script. There is exactly a script for how to be straight and like everybody just assumes it and you just don't tell them otherwise.

Yeah. It just like reminds me of like in college when like a lot of people didn't want to get into like monogamous relationships, especially like frat guys with my girlfriends who dated them. They were like, oh, like they don't want to be my boyfriend and I'm like, that's stupid to me. Like it's like just date someone and then as soon as you are not into them anymore, open it up or end it.

Yeah. Like it's like just follow your feelings continuously. Yeah. Yeah. Fluidity in all aspects. Okay, out of the three cult categories, live your life, watch your back or get the fuck out. What do we think the cult of heterosexuality falls into?

As a lesbian, I think I have to say red flag. I think on behalf of my community, I have to tell all the heterosexuals to get out. Yeah. I think actually I do think red flag around not peepee in VJJ, but around the rest of it. Yeah. So maybe watch your back. But yeah, the culture of heterosexuality, red flag, it's not good.

It's everything that you hate about society. It's GTSO. Yeah. It's this, you know, submission of women and objectificate, I mean, it's all of it. It's the patriarchy, honestly. It's the patriarchy. It's the patriarchy. It's bullying us into conformity for no reason.

It's uncomfortable pants. It's so many bad things. Yeah. Okay. I see what you're saying and I feel the same way. I think like the cult of heterosexuality as a society is definitely get the fuck out. Being straight is watch your back, especially as a woman. Yeah.

That's so true. Yeah. Amazing. I agree. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. This is like one of my fave all time episodes. I feel illuminated. Yeah.

Me too. If people want to keep up with you and your cult, where can they do that? This is the only thing I care about. I have a special out. It is free. It is a comedy special. And her special comes out April 23rd on YouTube. It's good.

It's very good. And I spent a lot of money on it and it's free for you. So just go onto YouTube and type in Ashley Gavin. That's literally all you have to do. Ashley Gavin. Ashley Gavin. Please, God, if you put that in anywhere, my stuff will come up. You don't have to remember anything.

It's just Ashley Gavin comedy special. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult was created, hosted, and produced by Issa Medina and Amanda Montell. Our theme music is by Casey Colt. This episode was edited and mixed by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin.

To join our cult, follow us on Instagram at SoundsLikeACultPod. I'm on Instagram at Amanda underscore Montell, and feel free to check out my books, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and Wordslet, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. And I'm on Instagram at Issa Medina, I-S-A-A-M-E-D-I-N-A-A, where you can find tickets to my live stand-up comedy shows or tell me where to perform. We also have a Patreon, and we would appreciate your support there at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.

And if you like our show, feel free to give us a rating on Spotify or Apple podcasts. And if you don't like our show, rate other podcasts the way you rate us. It does Dippin' Dots. Dippin' Dots. Remember? Erotic Dippin' Dots. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Dippin' Dots, you like. Yeah. That's how I eat. You guys eat it with a spoon? That's crazy. Oh. I just finger the shit out of my Dippin' Dots. I scoop them into my mouth.

I'm just picturing you at like Disney World as a seven-year-old. Just fingering a cup of Dippin' Dots. Yeah. That was the come-to moment.