Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Horse Girls

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

 We are thrilled to be lovingly feeding you this episode as if it were a delightful sugar cube, and you our noble thoroughbred.  If you haven’t yet gotten the memo, (via the pony express? ) this week we are covering the beloved cult of horse girls. Along this trot we found that there are almost as many delineations of horse girl as there are breeds of horse, so along for the ride to help Amanda and Reese is IRL jesus/horse camp-alumn turned comedian Jamie Loftus!  We had a blast visiting as many stalls in the stable as we could, from haughty Charlotte York Equestrianism right down to the curious world of hobbyhorsing… Saddle up, culties, and get to listening! Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth ;) Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube! Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles.  Thank you to our sponsors! Head to https://www.squarespace.com/CULT to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code CULT Shop data plans at https://MINTMOBILE.com/CULT Find exactly what you’re booking for on https://Booking.com, Booking.YEAH! Follow Don't Cross Kat on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Don't Cross Kat early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+.   Please consider donating to those affected by the Los Angeles Fires. Some organizations that Team SLAC are donating to are:  https://mutualaidla.org/ https://give.pasadenahumane.org/give/654134/#!/donation/checkout https://shorturl.at/SGW9w Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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There's such a big spectrum in how people treat their animals. And it seems like there are just horse people of all genders who are like, I love my horse and also still ride. But it seems like the higher up you go, the worse the infraction. Yeah, and the more willing you might be to compromise your former values, which the more willing you might be to compromise your former values, which is like culty, to say the least. This is Sounds Like a Cult,

a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montell, author of the book's cultish and the age of magical overthinking. And I'm Reese Oliver, your cohost and Sounds Like a Cult's coordinator. Every week on the show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist, from Waldorf schools to strip clubs, to try and answer the big question.

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A live-your-life, a watch-your-back, or a get-the-fuck-out? After all, not every culty-looking group these days is equally destructive. Cultish influence falls along a spectrum. The point of this show is to analyze how fanaticism shows up in everyday life, to poke a little bit of fun at human search for meaning, and to critique how power abuse shows up in places you might not think to look. Who knows? It's possible cultishness even lurks within that nice little girl you sat next to in the fourth grade with the rolly backpack and the folders with all the little horsies on them.

Yes, y'all today we are talking about horse girls. I'm so excited for this episode. I feel like we need an episode like this every now and again, just something straight out of left field, you know, to shake things up as we explore the outer pastures of what this podcast can be. So for some context, Reese and I both grew up aware of horse girls, aka this disparate and niche but nonetheless highly recognizable community of girls to whom horses are not just a passion but a lifestyle. But we were not horse girls ourselves, so it was really fun to get to dive in and learn a little bit more about them this week. Horse girls were sort of recently highlighted in the zeitgeist thanks to Mikey Madison, the Oscar-winning star of the movie

Anora, who recently came out as a former horse girl. So indeed followers of this religion, so to speak, do trot among us. On the surface, I feel like horse girls are one of those groups that seems super fringy. A cult is like porn, you know it when you see it. I see it in these Horse Girls, but maybe it's actually fine. And to help us figure it out, we have an oh so special guest, Jamie Loftus. Welcome to Sounds Like A Cult.

It's an honor, it's a gift, I'm a big fan of the show and of Horse Girls. Okay, so I knew that it was way overdue, your appearance on this show. And when we were trying to figure out what subculture to critique with you, and you are qualified to talk about many, I was so excited when you raised a hand,

raised a hoof and were like, I wanna talk about Horse Girls, because I feel like you two are a little horse girl coded and are gonna teach me a lot today. Sorry, Reese, your jaw's on the floor. I'm calibrating if I'm offended. No, don't be offended. I don't think I am.

I was like, Reese, you looked at something. I think I took it as a compliment. No, I think I need to reorient my mind frame. I think I'm there now. I think maybe I'm just like calling you both pretty. Stop it. So, Jamie, before we trot our little selves into the meat of this episode, could you

do us the blue ribbon honor of introducing yourself and your work to our listeners? Yes, my name is Jamie. I am a comedian and writer and podcaster. I wrote the book Raw Dog, a naked truth about hot dogs that came out almost two years ago. And right now I co-host the Bechdel cast with my friend, Caitlin Durante, of which Amanda is a former guest. And I also do a show called 16th Minute, where I interview former internet main characters years later to figure out what that does to your

brain. Genius on the internet. It's so good. It's a fun way to learn about every single kind of person that exists in the world I found. I love that. You are a subculture girlie and I appreciate all of these lenses. So you kind of hinted at having a piece of lore about your relationship to day's cult that you wanted to share out of the gate?

Yeah, I would qualify myself as an aspiring horse girl who never quite got there. I got a scholarship to a horse camp with my cousin twice, not because we were good at it, because we weren't, but I associate horse girls with Christianity because the camp we went to was a Jesus horse camp. And so our church would send two kids and so all of the girls were like, horses and God of course. And like we were not religious but we kind of like kept going

to church so we could get the horse scholarship. And there was one year where a horse died while my cousin was riding it, which is not a fun horse girl fact, but it is funny in retrospect because the horse just kind of sat down and didn't get back. It was very old. I mean, do you look horrified? RIP. It was a long time ago and everyone seemed weirdly fine with it. I was just like, why was the horse still at work? Yeah, retirement period of some kind. But I just obviously remember that. Okay, labor exploitation, red flag number one. Exactly, I was like, it certainly fucked us up.

I wonder if anyone else ever talks about it. But yeah, I associate horses with, I remain a quote unquote active Christian until they wouldn't send us to horse camp anymore. And then I was like, mom, I'm done, I'm done. That is so culty. There's no more horses in it for me anymore. I think that is how they reel you in. I think I went when I was like eight and then again,

when I was like 11 or 12. And that's how they get you. You want the horses. And then they're like, well, you have to go to chapel for three hours before you can have horse time. And so that was my horse experience. And then I went on later to cover the Kentucky Derby once. So that was my horse girl resurgence moment. The horse girl to Protestantism pipeline is very much like the aspiring screen star to Scientology pipeline. It's like, oh, just come to our horse camp.

20 years later, you're an anti-abortion soldier for Christ. Is that a paranoid jump in logic? Because at first I was like, it wasn't that culty, but you're like, no, you had to agree to go to chapel for like four to five hours a day. I remember we did this thing where we would have to write down our greatest regret onto a rock and then throw the rock into a fire as this symbol of like, that was the old me or like what I don't even know what it was, but it was really bizarre. I did love going the church parts sucked but I also think of horse girls as like a very upper-class thing and so the scholarship was key but I couldn't just afford to ride a horse but I could afford to you

know pay with my time to Jesus Christ our savior and then have a horse for a week. And that's it. Loving these divulgences right out of the gate. We're already getting to a cultier place than I thought. Reese, what is your relationship to horse girls? I don't really have too much of a strong relationship to horse girls. Just kind of witnessing them through the media, you know, like horse related shows and things. A couple of girls here and there growing up, I hopped around elementary schools, so I never really formed long-lasting friendships

with any horse girls. I befriended a dragon girl. We were pretty tight. We would run the mile on all fours, or I would walk behind her and she would run the mile on all fours. And- What?

Oh yeah, that's like- That's not dabbling in horse- No, but she was a dragon. It was different. And in lieu of flying, which is tough. Yeah. And then it was double duty because she could look for bugs. She liked to look for bugs too.

We were great friends. I love her. If you're out there, you know who you are and I miss you. I just say Horse Girls, not really so much of a thing, but an idea to me, a concept really and truly. And I'm so excited just to sit down and truly just explore all of the different ways this concept can manifest. Yeah, okay, so Reese was like, horse girls are basic.

And so that's why you were offended earlier. You were like, I'm a dragon girl and a bug girl. Yeah. I'm your dragon. Yeah, horse girls were just, they're a little girl scout for me. I just wasn't, that wasn't that mainstream ever. Yeah, that's totally fair. It feels very like Barbie kid coat.

I mean, Barbie always has a damn horse. Well, we're gonna be talking about horse Barbie later, Miss Briar. Oh, good. But Tawny, Barbie's horse, love her. Yes. Love her. I never had one, but it was just like, it was just more hair. I'm like, and is that the appeal? I don't know. Yeah. I never had one, but it was just like, it was just more hair.

I'm like, and is that the appeal? I don't know. Yeah. So speaking of like the connection between Barbies and horses, I knew one horse girl growing up. She lived in like the more rural part of Baltimore County. She was tall and beautiful and like skinny and blonde.

Really nice, really nice. Not like a mean girl at all. And she had a horse and a really big house. So nice, not like a mean girl at all. And she had a horse and a really big house. So she kind of was a Barbie. I was definitely into horses, but horse girl culture intimidated me. I got this impression that horse girls were like ballerinas and like Barbies and that I just wasn't waspy enough for it. I always thought of horse girlism as a very inclusive hobby. I don't think I thought of them as like, cool,

but maybe that's because I met a bunch at camp. I mean, I thought of them as kind of like girls that were really into mythology, where it just felt like it was a lot of work. So I knew I could never be a full horse girl because I could only be around horses as much as Pastor Bill would sign off on it. So I didn't have horse access.

And also it just like, there's just so much to know. And some of it I thought was quite disgusting. Both times I went, they make you watch a horse have a dental cleaning and it was mortifying. They were like, if you want the fun parts of the horse, you have to see it get a root canal around. I don't even know what it was, but I just remember it was like, they should not show kids horse dentistry,

but they did. Okay, fascinating. I feel like it's now time for us to quantify this cult a little bit because there are a lot of cultural touchstones. Anything from like girls who loved black beauty and secretariat growing up to Charlotte York could be considered a horse girl, but I feel like we need to provide a definition. So according to the Bible, that is wikiHow, horse girls exist on a spectrum, okay, from athletes to hobbyists. So this is, as you were saying,

Reese, an all-inclusive cult, so to speak. To define a horse girl is to rein her in. She is undefinable. Some equestrians might be horse girls, but not all horse girls are equestrians. And today we'll be covering a few different points along this continuum. We'll be talking about equestrians, we'll be talking about collectors, and then we'll be talking about my favorite freaky subculture, hobby horsers. Hobby, horser, I hardly know her. I'm so excited to meet her.

Yes. This is new to me. Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait. Oh, I'm so happy. It's new to you. All the better. You will see.

Time to broaden my horizons. It's been too long. Yeah, I feel like especially nowadays, Gigi Hadid in the past couple of years has kind of came on the scene and made us all kind of reckon with what horse girlism is. I feel like it's kind of cool and trendy again to be somewhat into a western vibe, you know? The cowboy boots to the concerts are like fully a thing. Horse girl culture is kind of being co-opted right now, but as we've been talking about,

obviously this was not always so. Like I always kind of thought of horse girls as, while yes they could be a little pressy, there's also definitely a subgroup of them that were geeky. We will be getting to the geeky later. The Gigi Hadid of it all is where we are going to begin. The cool horse girlies, the equestrians. And equestrianism-ing, I have learned, is very involved. It is like a bunch of different sports. I thought it was one sport. It is not. There is dressage, which is not equal to show jumping, which is not equal to cross country. You can compete in all three of those and that's called eventing. There's different combinations of those things. And then there's like Future Farmers of America, which is an entirely different thing. You can be an equestrian in a bajillion different fonts. It's truly Barbie's dream world.

Whoa, I didn't know horses also ran cross country, but it makes sense, they can. I suppose we had to go places usually, like they got us there at some point. I'm just like thinking of them in like the little shorts. That's like a classic cross country. Oh my god, dressed like Polly Bleaker. Exactly. That's funny, sorry.

That's like a very millennial reference. My millennial horse girl reference was the Felicity American Girl doll, who was never my favorite, but she was like a horse girl. I didn't like dolls growing up. I liked stuffed animals. You know those like huge F.A.O. Schwartz stuffed animals?

That's what I really wanted. Yeah. The big Costco ones were really like the Mecca. Something about a toy dog the size of your father. Here's like, why? But also it was a very appealing idea. I do think that is kind of what horse girls are doing. It's kind of like, what's the biggest pet I can have?

A horse, right? Yeah, oh my God, you're right. Because it's like, what does every little girl dream of getting a pony? A pony. And if you didn't dream of it before, the culture will tell you to dream of it. Like there is at once this like farmery

sort of historical vibe to horse girls, but there's also this aspirational, if you have all the money in the world, the first thing you're gonna wanna get is a pony vibe. That juxtaposition of like something very unglamorous and something very aspirational, I think creates pretty good cult conditions. Yes.

I think creates pretty good cult conditions. Yes. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is a household name for a reason. If you are creating a website, you really should check it out. It is the all-in-one website platform that allows entrepreneurs or other professionals to create a stunning website, to stand out, to succeed online, and to sell anything from products to content to even your valuable time. I've been a Squarespace user for several years now.

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So this comparison between the high highs of horse girldom and the low lows of horse girldom, the equestrians actually kind of have quite a problem with this comparison. According to LJ Cody of the Colgate Maroon in a piece called More Than Horsing Around, a true insight into horse girls. The horse girl interviewed for the piece said, When I hear the phrase horse girl, I tend to think of the really bad small town movies that feature the trope of a girl being sent off to a ranch or small town where she forms a bond with the horse.

Most of these movies are laughable, and most horse girls will easily tell you that. The author of this article says that they feel this way for legit reason. She says, And since when are passion and commitment bad things? The girl in Horse Girl emphasizes the heavily gendered component of the critique to horseback riding, which treats the sport like a frivolous pastime instead of the incredibly hazardous and highly skilled activity that it is. There is no equivalent term for people who are obsessed with football, which has a lower risk for serious injury than riding. So I mean, it kind of poses an interesting question.

Should equestrianism and or its fans, the horse girls of the world, be treated more like just like football fans? Is there really that big of a difference? I don't think so. When I was going on my pre horse girl episode walk, I was like, I guess if horse boys, not to horse binary, but they chose to. But like horse boys, like they're more considered athletes where I think about like going to the Derby, it's, I mean, most people are there to get blackout drunk

and scream and gamble, but it is very much a sport. And it is very much a sports environment. But for some reason, when teenage girls are interested, it can become this either aspirational or laughable thing. But like horse boys are considered, what is the British thing? Polo. Yes. I was like, what are they always playing on the crown? They're always playing polo. And they're athletes, but horse girls, it seems like all things, the bar is

harder to clear to be taken seriously. For sure. The hurdle is higher. Yeah. I mean, this is so fair that like when girls are really fanatical about something, it's instantly perceived as not only frivolous, but fringe. I mean, it reminds me of like fandom in general. Like when you think about girls shrieking at the Beatles or at Justin Bieber, that reeks of like Pentecostals speaking in tongues, but when men are like grunting and punching each other and like screaming at the top of their lungs at an NFL game, that's respectable. So there is this sort of double standard going on for sure.

But like there's no such thing as horse boy. It's a jockey. It's an equestrian. It's a polo player. Like it is this sort of like default male thing that when feminized is poopooed and yet I just naturally am more interested in scrutinizing things that girls are interested in obviously and I think a lot of our listeners are too and problematizing them as well because like these things that girls like are just in a way more interesting and I take them more seriously.

because these things that girls like are just in a way more interesting and I take them more seriously. That's kind of some context. It's like, yes, there is a culty gender binary and double standards and a slimmer margin for error when it comes to women and cultish participation. And I barely care about what men love. So. I was about to say, I was like,

you were like, I'm doing an episode on jockeys. I feel like, okay, but like horse girls. Now I'm listening. Exactly. No, I just want to scrutinize, problematize, and give grace to things that girls like in spades. Just like that's kind of like the underlying energy of the show at large. Oh yeah.

Well, and my boyfriend and I talk about it all the time. Like a lot of the content we consume largely overlaps, but when we're turning on our YouTube at the end of the night instead of our television because we're Gen Z, and it's like, who's recommended are we going to scroll through? I'm always like, no, I don't want boy YouTube. No, it's all equally frivolous and not frivolous. So let's get a little more concrete now and talk about some of the culty aspects of this equestrianism wing of horse girl culture. So the first is, and like content warning, because like I cannot even handle when like a fictional dog gets hurt in a fictional book. Sorry, I opened by being like, I saw a horse die once. Yeah. So one example of animal abuse in equestrian culture

was detailed in a 2024 piece in the week titled Charlotte du Jardin and Equestrianism's Dark Side. So this three-time Olympic award winner, Charlotte du Jardin, which, like, if that's not a horse girl name. That's a rich horse girl, easy. That's a six-figure name, at least. That's a seven-fig girl name. That's a rich horse girl, easy. That's a six figure name, at least. Seven figure name. This piece detailed how this Olympian fell from public grace after a video of her whipping a student's horse over 20 times in one minute was released right before she was set

to go to the Olympics again. So I don't know, maybe there's a lot of mystery surrounding horse girls because of the elitism and the exclusivity and horse girls not being taken super seriously. So these sort of controversies aren't at the center of public discourse, but it sounds like as soon as this video was released, people started to understand like fucked up shit happens in this corner of culture.

It's old fashioned in, I think the way that a lot of people consider aspirational and in the way that animal abuse is so normalized and tolerated. I want to say I covered the derby in 2022 and when I was preparing to go it was like this big sort of sea change moment in that race specifically because they pumped the horses full of steroids so that they can run these races and the 2021 winner the horse not the guy He was pumped full of chemicals won the race and then had a massive heart attack Weeks later and passed away to the point where by the time I went they had to start making official rules and

Regulations my understanding was you could still use steroids on your horse, which feels abusive, but you just couldn't use so much that it died. Like they were changing the regulations. And so I was very under informed about that event, but it's really brutal behind the scenes. Yeah, because if there's so much money at stake and there is in horse racing,

and you're also like dealing with an animal whose lives are so undervalued in this society, then I could easily see how they'd be like, who the fuck cares about these horses? I just want to win. They're like, there's always another horse seems. And then there's also people who are lovely and don't do that. I see it like there's such a big spectrum in how people treat their animals and it seems like there are just horse people of all genders who are like, I love my horse and also still ride, but it doesn't, it seems like the higher up you go, the worse the infraction. Yeah. And the more willing you might be to compromise your former values, which is like

culty, to say the least. So let's next talk about the sort of exclusivity aspect of equestrianism as it relates to racism and discrimination. Teen equestrian Sophie Gotchman took it upon herself to detail what she experienced in the equestrian world in a blog post on the horse publication, The Chronicle of the Horse, called Breaking the Silence Surrounding White Privilege in the Horse World. It's also always really interesting to me to just know about how these different subcultures have their different like trade publications. All the independent journalism makes me so happy. I love it.

I love doing the research. It's horse enthusiast. I know. So she talked about in this post how people of color are deeply underrepresented in her sport. She said, quote, But does it stop anyone to consider that the hostility of the show jumping community toward outsiders is so great that it causes a loss of appeal? I'm tired of being one of the few who ever brings up civil rights. I'm tired of always losing my respect for the people I should

look up to, such as our Olympians and prominent trainers when they refuse to talk about or silently support social inequality. I'm tired of being ridiculed by people and consider friends when I start conversations about police brutality, sexual assault, feminism, the environment, immigration, and white privilege." And this post that Sophie made received just like horrible microaggressions in response from other horse girls in the community. So I guess it is, as they say, shocking, but not surprising to learn that the sort of like Gigi Hadid helm cool girl side of horse girlism is not welcoming of everyone in equal measure. Right, and then in the meantime,

working class farm owning families, that is like a different category, even though they're doing the same thing. It also makes me just think about how much history, especially if like black equestrians has just been erased or ignored when like literally the first moving image ever was a black equestrian. Like, I just, I don't know. Oh, yes, that's so true.

Oh my God. That famous moving picture. I learned that from watching Nope movie about black equestrians. It's the little zoetrope thing. That was cool. I think that's what it's called. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think I learned that from watching Nope movie about black equestrians. It's the little zoetrope thing. I think that's what it's called. Yeah. I mean, so much of this culture already reminds me a great deal of ballet, which we covered in another episode, just like the barrier to entry in terms of class and race and the toll that is taken on the bodies of those who participate. I mean, in horse girl culture, the toll is more taken on the bodies of those who participate. I mean, in horse girl culture, the toll is more taken on the body of the horse.

But regardless, like just culturally and in terms of like ritual and exclusivity and all those culty aspects, I'm seeing a lot of overlap so far there. So let's talk a little bit more about some of the financial inequality that shows up in this cult. Another post on the Chronicle of the Horse by Raina Pocker called Why I Left the Show World responded to Sophie, that piece that we referenced earlier, with support and she added that the sport of show jumping and equestrianism lacks diversity primarily for financial reasons.

Think of all of the things that you have to purchase in order to get involved. You need not only the horse, but the clothing and the board for the horse. The vet bills are insane and can accumulate. She said, quote, even if you're an extremely talented rider, many redline and fail to climb the ranks

because they can't afford the horse with all the gears to get them there. Less talented riders with financial means have no limits. That's not to say some deserve to be where they are, but I've seen some lesser known writers who could outride some at the top. It's not a level playing field to begin with. And it's like there's so many sports like that too. I think about like hockey is another one where it's like just the startup cost is so significant that it's just a complete non-starter even if the enthusiasm and talent is there. For sure. And it's interesting to talk about this through CultLens too because some cults at least

seem to be really welcoming. And they say they purport to welcome anyone into the flock. I'm thinking of, I don't know, certain religious denominations or self-help groups, things like that. And some are these more kind of like Illuminati style cults where you have to like know someone who knows someone and do a handshake and have an outfit and read the secret message or whatever. And only then can you be admitted. And I mean, these cults across the board are extremely exclusive and not just anyone can join and even in groups that seem to be opening up their arms to those who are lost or whatever still require you to have resources and will exploit those resources.

But so far, this seems to be one of those cults that wears as a badge of honor, its exclusivity and the fact that not everybody can be a part of it. Yeah, like you were saying earlier, like horse as status symbol. Totally. But the equestrian side of it is only but one stall in the stable of this overall cult. These episodes are only an hour, so it's about time to move on to the culty world and its many zip codes of horse collectordom. Yes, horse collectoredom. So this is the denomination of horse girl cultishness that you enter if maybe you aren't quite financially there to be an equestrian. If you can't quite swing

it and if you can't get a horse of your very own, you get yourself a briar. And a briar is horse Barbie. And I learned all about Briar from this New York Times piece by Gray Chapman called Giddy Up, Girlfriend. Loving horses might insulate you from all the manure on the internet, which is just really this look into the wholesome model horse collecting community. I have the Briar website and we're all going to go pick ourselves a little horsey right now is what we're gonna do. Oh my god.

Yes! Describe the variety of horsies you're seeing. There's a horse for everyone here. There's glass horses, there's metallic horses, there's a veteran horse, there's like a camouflage horse, the 2025 Hope horse, unicorns, there's golden horses. There's baby horses. There's zebra horses. There's blue horses. There's Beowulf horse, whatever that means. There's the gilded horse. I will sign up for the newsletter. There's windblown unicorn horse. This is just magnificent. This is where we belong. Leave the horses out of it.

Right? I'm like, I don't want the equestrianism. I don't want to muck out the stalls. I don't want to spend any of the money for any of it. I just want this $5 and 49 cent Palomino Pinto full that is in stock and I can add to my cart with the click of a button. Thank you very much. I love that there's randomly a Texas Longhorn Bull

with a gigantic bull penis. I'm like, for what? It costs $55? Jamie, what is your Briar horse of choice? I'm going to go with draft horse with cat, a horse with a friend on page two, a mere $8.49. It's a beautiful brown horse with a little white cat sitting on its butt.

I feel like it's a little culty of me that I'm naturally gravitating toward the holiday themed horses. Cause I wanna ask Reese, what is the community aspect that this Briar brand affords its patrons? Cause I feel like if you combine horse girl, horse collector and holiday,

now that's just like double the ritual, double the worship, double the worship, double the fun. So yeah, what is the culture surrounding? Briar, who is she? What's going on here? So the Briar girlies, much like the Barbie girlies, first of all, they're dressing up their horses. They are customizing their horses. They are curating their collections and then they are putting them in silly little outfits. You can buy little horse blankets for $9, leather saddles for around $50, or custom wooden barns for even $500, which Chapman refers to as tiny surrogates through which

to live out a painstakingly detailed fantasy rendered exquisitely in 1 to 9 scale. And I couldn't agree more. As with all good culty hobbies for the children, Briar also offers extensive jargon to all of its little players. All of your different horsies likely have different rankings. So if you have an AP horsey, that's an artist proof, that means it's a special one.

You could have a conga of horsies, which is when you have a collection of models of the same mold. So like, if you really love that draft horse with cat and you have like 10 of them and 10 little kitties, that would be a conga that you would have assembled. The way their little feetsies are all posed, they kind of look like they're in a little conga line when you put them all together like that, as far as I understand. They talk about like Barbie face molds and that like sort of parlance too. As a doll,

that's my YouTube algorithm. It's all middle-aged doll collectors. And it's very similar. I'm seeing a lot of reborn doll similarities here where the idiosyncrasies of each individual horse is kind of part of the magic. So there's obviously like an appeal to having like the packaged ones and having them all be nice in the different varieties. But also if you're like a diehard collector, maybe you like your little messed up ones from when you were a kid that you've had for forever. It's very personable in that way. There are also horse girls online, because of course there are. The horse girlies are on Instagram.

The ones interviewed for this piece said that they were like waiting until they turned 13 to get on Briar Instagram, and I had no clue this even existed, but it made me so happy. Because if you're gonna be on Instagram and the alternative is like Andrew Tate content, I'm just happy the little girlies are having fun on Briar Instagram, honestly. Go for it. It feels very like Neopets in a good way. You're like, the wholesome internet is still somewhere. That always makes me feel optimistic about the future. Totally. My dog Fiddle is obsessed with horses. He thinks they're gods. And whenever Fiddle sees a horse,

he like bows down, I shit you not. How often is Fiddle seeing horses? Horses are around and about in my parents' neighborhood. So sometimes when I'm visiting them, he'll see a horse. You should see his body language. It's really reverent. It's actually a little culty. That's so cute. Yeah. It should see his body language. It's really reverent. It's actually a little culty. That's so cute.

Yeah. It's just his natural instinct. My dog saw the horses that are at Griffith Park once. You could feel that same kind of godlike energy, but also you could really tell that he was like, that dog's gigantic. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, it was like that. Now that we're talking about it, I think that a sort of transcendent wisdom within horses might be like the center of the Venn diagram here. Like that's the one thing imbuing every corner of this horse girl cult is there is something like really objectively

like so impressive and so beautiful about horses. Like they have saved human beings at so many points in our history. They have helped us progress and kept us company. And they're so strong, but so soft. There is something Godlike about them that I feel like our dogs can pick up on too. They're quite majestic for sure. And the same way that cats can sense like earthquakes or demons, like I feel like dogs know what's up.

I mean, I guess this is true of a lot of farm animals, but that horses do need care from you, but they're also so much stronger than you. And that is like a very interesting like balance of power. But a huge difference between horses and other farm animals is that in American culture, at least we do not eat them. And so like they are our companions and they are domesticated, but yes, they're very strong

and they could overpower us. And I feel like there's a lot of inherent respect there. They're like in that in between of a dog and a wild animal, in the way that like a saint is in between a human and a deity. The humble horse. I realize I do respect horses. Yeah. What did they do to earn my respect? I do respect them. No I've always kind of been scared of them. They're a little scary. They're intimidating I guess I should say. It's a better fit. Yeah yeah well but so's

God you know. Am I just experiencing awe when I'm in the presence of a horsey? Like it's such a big creature. Yeah. Okay, I'm really grateful that we took that departure because that feels like the theology of horse-crowlism. And that was an important ingredient. This episode of Sounds Like a Cult is brought to you by Booking.com. Booking dot yeah. Okay, culties, imagine this.

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and ad-free right now by joining Wondry Plus. So now that we've established that, we have also established that internet horse content really hasn't changed from like Charlie the Unicorn to now. People are still making little horsey skits and the horse girlies are still making fictional and unfictional content of all kinds of horse related on the internet. The social media manager for Briar even said that it was unbelievable to her. These girls who would photograph them and love them and take care of them like real horses. A very wholesome community. I think it's a grain flag. Oh, totally. If the internet version of your cult is a nice place to be, I feel like you don't have to

worry. And with that, we are going to travel to the IRL place to be if you are a member of this cult, which is Briarfest. Briarfest is really like the pièce de résistance of being a Briar girly. It is a yearly con since 1989 of approximately 30,000 horse girls in Kentucky Horse Park. And Briar aficionados and real horse aficionados of all kinds do like model horse competitions. They trade, they buy, they sell art, they do all of the things.

They have to hook up too, right? Like there has to be hookup culture at Briarfest. That's like thrilling. Not that specifically, but just the idea of this much intensity towards something that isn't hurting anybody is like the best energy in the world to soak up. There is something erotic about that. is like the best energy in the world to soak up. There is something erotic about that. Well, I think there is something to be very erotic about meeting someone with the exact same niche interest as you.

It is a very powerful and intense bond. And if you're also physically vibing, one thing can lead to another. I mean, there's niche interests I have that I would so easily drop everything to have sex with a huge fan of a series of unfortunate events. Like that just sounds amazing. Oh my God, that's my favorite book series.

Really? It's so, okay. That's what I was picking up on. It wasn't that you were both giving it a rest, girl. I knew there was something. It's the limiting snake in it all, my bad, my bad. Someone said to me once, they're like, it is a very bi-girl energy to be really into a series

of unfortunate events. It has like feeling seen a little bit. I am feeling the bi visibility in this stable tonight. Incredible. So I just have a couple of fun little vignettes that I pulled from Briarfest that I really enjoyed reading through in this New York Times piece. Chapman sets the tone for what you'll see at Brierfest by saying,

Nearby, a little girl wearing a pink unicorn horn, cantered in a tight circle, pawed at the concrete with a teva-clad shoe, and winneed shrilly. The teva sandal-ness of it all. I think that's the image of the horse girl that I had growing up. And I think I was always kind of afraid to embody that horse girl. And I think that's maybe what it was, was I never engaged with horse girls because they are just so unapologetically themselves. I don't know.

I think I was embarrassed for them, but also jealous. Oh, that's so real. I feel like I experienced that exact sensation a lot growing up, where like my inability to own something in myself was causing me to judge another group and getting older. I mean, I say this all the time, but like scrutinizing cultishness in everyday life has not only made me more skeptical, it's actually also made me a lot more compassionate of how communal

and mystical human beings naturally are. And it's made me want to not in a get the fuck out way, but in a live your life way, embrace my own inner culty cringiness that I might not have as a young person. And that's why in the past few years, I've been owning my inner theater kid and engaging in a little more Los Angeles, new age enos just because this is what people do and it's okay. So that's something interesting to disentangle from girlhood. And speaking of girlhood, I feel like we should probably put a button on the conversation we were having

earlier about the sort of misogynist reduction of horse girls that exists. They do, as we've been saying, represent a kind of unbridled indulgence in innocence and in ritual. So, Reese, could you unpack that a little bit more? I would like to unpack that through the story of these two little girls who met at Briarfest and who keep up through the online Briar community. And the New York Times piece, Giddy Up Girlfriend, kind of follows their friendship. It starts and ends the piece talking about them and we see them arranging a marriage for their briars. A beautiful ceremony. In the last year, the two girls who live 760 miles apart have spent hours on FaceTime talking about their model horses, constructing fleece pony pouches in which to safely transport

their briars, planning the aforementioned wedding of their two models, Quill and Sangria. Here, there are neither nervous bathing suit selfies nor brows on fleek. In fact, there are barely any selfies at all, just toy horses often seeming to serve as vessels to reenact the struggles in their own young owners' lives, accompanied with diary-like captions. Just the lack of self-consciousness I love. I find that so freeing. I think it's so beautiful and like you both described, I know that when I was younger, there's like a part of me that would have been like, I want to do that. But I was too self-conscious to admit. Even though I didn't do that, it was stuff like watching the Disney

Channel way further in my life than I would have admitted to or, you know, stuff like that. And then you see a girl who's like, yeah, I don't care. I watch Wizards of Waverly Plays and I'm 14 and I'd be like, oh, you can't do that. You know, it is cool, especially in retrospect, just that amount of sincerity. I feel like so much horrible cultiness comes from a place of insecurity and that doesn't seem like where this community is at at all. They're quite secure in their passion.

Yeah, and you know, writing your sincerity bareback like that, I find, sorry, I don't even have a conclusion to that sentence. No, you just wanted to start it. I just wanted to start it. I just wanted to start it. So before we get to a game and then our final verdict, we wanted to address just one last denomination of the horse girl cult.

This is the most unbridled form of horse girlhood, and that is the world of hobby horsing. Jamie, I know you mentioned that you don't know what that is, but could you guess what competitive hobby horsing. Jamie, I know you mentioned that you don't know what that is, but could you guess what competitive hobby horsing might be? Is it like pretending to ride a fake horse? Do you know what a hobby horse is? Is it sort of like a rocking horse, but not?

Yeah, it's a horse on a stick. Oh my God, so it's like Quidditch teams or whatever? Is it like that? Okay. Yeah, we had these growing up, my brother and I. They're very 19th century, maybe Montessori coated trad toy. They're like a stuffed horse head on a stick. It's like a lollipop and a witch's broom and a horse.

And I thought this was just like a toy that you took interest in for five seconds when you're eight years old or maybe three, I don't know. But as it turns out it is a world. So hobby horsing is a combination of hobby, creative play, kind of like maybe LARPing, and sport that has gained widespread attention in recent years. I went down a rabbit hole watching YouTube video compilations of hobby horsing recently.

This world originated in Finland in 2002. It gained popularity and since 2022, so this is recent stuff, there has even been a tournament. So there are blogs about hobby horsing and in one called hobbyhorse.com, a blog post described the hobby horse culture this way. You can choose from several disciplines. Show jumping, dressage, puissance.

Is that how you say that? That's high jumping. So it's all the equestrian events, but on a stick horse? Yeah, it is baby. Yes it is. There's Western horsemanship, there's Western trail, there's horse racing and other possible disciplines, which you'll find out about when you sign up.

According to a news piece by Katherine Nguyen titled, Why Hobby Horsing is the Greatest Sport of All Time, on Instagram, some of the athletes can jump over four feet with a stick horse between their legs. So this is athletic. And I really encourage people to look it up on YouTube. I was amazed at the form and the technique and how seriously people take this.

I mean, when these hobby horses fail to clear a hurdle or mess up something technically, they will break down crying. I mean, they're little girls. And it looks utterly bizarre. Like it does sound like a cult and look like a cult. But then when you break it down, it's like, well, what are you supposed to do

if you don't have an extra $50,000 to spend on your hobby in the form of a real horse? It only costs like between 20 and $200 for a stick horse. Which feels steep. $200? I mean. But that's like a really nice. It's nice.

It's nice. Yeah. Again, I highly encourage anyone listening who loves to rubberneck at freaky subcultures to look this up, but do so with generosity. Again, these are little girls engaging in a hobby. And we were curious what traditional equestrians thought about this burgeoning world.

And as it turns out, they're into it. So Fred Sundwall, who's the secretary general for the Finnish Equestrian Federation has said, we think it's just wonderful that hobby horsing has become a phenomenon and so popular. He said he's excited that, it gives kids and teenagers who don't have horses a chance to interact with them outside

of stables and riding schools. So I guess my question for the both of you is aside from this just being like a form of play pretend that could get a little tiny bit expensive and is just like weird to look at. Do you think there could be any serious culty downsides of the world of hobby horsing? What could you imagine that even being? Honestly, the area of this subculture that seems to have like the greatest propensity for harm is old school equestrians, like the ones who are potentially abusing

and exploiting animals. So I don't see how they would have a leg or four to stand on to criticize the hobby horsing thing. I mean, it's like, oh, you can't kill people fencing anymore. So maybe there's a future where they're like, wait, we're hurting these horses, but we can still get on the old hobby horse and relive the glory. Yeah, hobby horsing seems like the ethical alternative

to traditional equestrianism in a way, like in a weird dystopian novel where all the horses are gone. This is what we do to remember life before. But I'm seeing like a kind of a her situation in my head, like a parasocial relationship with one stick horsey. And I really think that's the most cultish, but that's like even no more individually cultish dynamic. In terms of like a larger group dynamic, when you remove the animal aspect from it, it kind of just becomes as culty as any other sport. Including the like crying and breaking down when you're not successful.

Like kids do that at soccer. Totally, like I'm so much more into this. This is so much cooler to watch. I am in the market for a new hobby. Is there adult hobby horse? A hobby horse purchase? I'm not kidding because I am insecure about not being very athletic or coordinated,

but I feel like I could get into this. That's a safe space. It's kind of like line dancing and pole fitness combined. Oh my God, because I did go through a very serious line dancing phase, and that is about as close to actual horses as this, which is to say not very, and again, I love stuffed animals.

So I'm loving this. Okay, so I feel like we've done a pretty thorough job for a Sounds Like a Cult episode of foraging through the many trails of this cult. And I feel like now it's time to play a game. So Jamie, we would love to saddle you up into a game of would you rather. Yes, please. So we're just going to present two culty scenarios,

one of which will involve the Cult of Horse Girls, and you'll simply answer which one you'd rather do. Okay. Would you rather always smell like hay or only date those you're astrologically compatible with forever? Oh. I mean, astrologically, I did think about like,

how bad does he really smell? But yeah, the second option. Oh my God, I would rather smell like hay. I think hay smells good. Are we talking fresh hay? I was like, if it's like a fresh bale. Oh, I think I just have a different opinion on that. Oh, you don't think hay smells good.

Do you think Sharpies smell good? Yes. Ooh, okay. What about gasoline? Yes. Okay, I don't think either of those smell good. So maybe there's a correlation. All right, would you rather compete unprepared in a hobby horsing tournament or get cult of Nickelodeon

slimed out of nowhere without any warning? Oh, definitely slimed. That would be a dream come true. I feel like I've been practicing my like surprise phase. I know that it wouldn't happen if I was actually being surprised, but when I was a kid, I used to be like, oh my God. I loved how beautiful women receiving kids' choice awards would react when being beautifully slimed.

And I was like, me someday, hopefully. So I want that. For all the listeners, that's a testament to go listen to that episode. Genuinely, yeah. The slime means so much that you might not see at first blush. No. Reese, what about you? I got to say, I don't think anyone whose opinion I value is at a hobby horsing tournament.

And assuming I could get slimed just in my regular life, I think I might take the hobby horsing just to see what it feels like. You know, Margot Robbie does a lot of animal work in her acting practice. Like for Barbie, she's she talked about doing a lot of animal work. I feel like maybe I could I can make it work. Yeah, I would totally do that as well. I feel like we would film it and like make an amazing Instagram video

for Sounds Like a Cult event. I feel like that's really bold that you think I would let you do that. Okay, next one. Jamie, would you rather muck out the stables every day for a month or see a Shen Yun performance every day for a month, or see a Shen Yun performance every day for a month. Oh, I think I'm going muck,

because at least I can like, plug my nose and listen to something else while I'm mucking. It's just a good way to get out of the house and off your phone. Yeah, I don't feel like seeing Shen Yun every day for a month would build character, the way that mucking the stables would. I'm sure month would build character the way that Mocking the Stables would. I'm sure it would build character in a way. I just don't know if it's the way that we want.

I don't think that's a character any of us want to be. No. Okay, this one's kind of a you get to pick. Would you rather collect Briar Horses or Reborn Dolls? Oh, Briar Horses. I'm like in. And also the barrier to entry is like Beanie babies low, which is incredible. I might throw some in the cart. Totally. I don't need any collectible ones, but yeah, the horse with cowdung butt 850. Come on. That's great.

Steal. It is. Steal. Okay. Last one. I love this one. Would you rather ride a horse everywhere forever or drive a cyber truck everywhere forever? I mean I think your like chances of survival and respect are better if you go with the horse.

So I'm going horse. Unanimous horse. Horses can love you back and you can only be hated by others for driving a Cybertruck. So true. That game seems silly and maybe it is, but I've been reflecting on this lately. The games are such an important segment of Sounds Like a Cult because we grade our cults on a curve. These are everyday cults. It's subjective as we say, you know, like cultishness is in the eye of the beholder and we're not going to be able to evaluate our verdict properly unless we get some of the perspective that these games afford.

So I'm really glad we did that and thank you for playing, Jamie. Oh my gosh. I mean, I really do feel like I know myself a little better than I did five minutes ago. Amazing. Thank you so much for joining this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. Do you have any sort of like final takeaways about the cult of horse girls that maybe you didn't arrive today with? Yeah, even though it's like evolved into something a little weirder and scrappier, I like when a perspective cult progressively turns into something more wholesome. I feel like that's a treat and I I love anything connected to girlhood. And I love projecting myself onto other things, which is why I will be purchasing some Briar horses and be like,

she's sensitive, but beautiful. Incredible. Well, I see this blossoming identity for you. And if people want to keep up with how that future Jamie Horsegirl identity unfolds, where can they follow you and keep up with your work? You can follow me on Instagram and Blue Sky is mainly where I'm at right now. I am jamichristsuperstar on Instagram and jamie.loftus on Blue Sky. And then you can listen to 16th Minute every Tuesday. Incredible. Tuesday. Incredible. All right, Reese, it's time. Out of our three cult categories, live your life,

watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which do you think the cult of horse girls falls into? Giddy up! It's a live your life. I have to live your life. I'm living my life! I'm getting a briar! Yeah, I'm here for it. I kind of have some disdain for equestrianism, but I don't think any more so than I do any other sport, nor do I think it's especially coltier than any other sport. So for that reason, it's a liput. Yeah, yee-haw! Gallop on!

Gallop on! Amazing. Well, Reese, thank you for doing this episode with me. That is our show. Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of The Podcabin.

This episode was hosted by Amanda Montell and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cold. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of

Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality, and Wordslet, a Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network, Studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. This episode of Sounds Like a Cult is brought to you by booking.com booking. Yeah.

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