Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Incels

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

Buckle up, because this week we’re spiraling into one of the internet’s darkest (and most tragically cringey) cults: Incels, a.k.a. self-proclaimed “involuntary celibates” who believe they’ve been cursed by the universe (read: women) to live a life without love, sex, or accountability. Joining Amanda and Reese for this delightfully horrifying deep-dive are cult comedy kings Henry Zebrowski (@drfantasty) and Ed Larson (@eddietunes) of Last Podcast on the Left (@lpontheleft), here to help us unpack how this chronically online community evolved from obscure message boards into a full-blown belief system complete with its own language, martyrs, and very questionable ethos. We’re talking “Chads,” “Stacys,” color-coded pills, doomer memes, and a whole lot of weaponized loneliness. Is this a support group gone wrong? A sad-boy doomsday cult? Or just a bunch of dudes who desperately need therapy and a hobby? Tune in for a wild ride through the cultiest corners of the manosphere—tinfoil hats optional, but encouraged.  Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles. Thank you to our sponsors! Start paying rent through Bilt and take advantage of your Neighborhood Benefits™ by going to https://joinbilt.com/CULT Head to https://www.squarespace.com/CULT to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code CULT For the bookings you’ve dreamed of, list your property on Booking.com! Check out https://Adamandeve.com/ and select any one item. Be sure to use this code SLAC to get your discount, 100% Free Shipping and get it fast with Rush Processing - Code SLAC! Please consider donating to those affected by the Los Angeles Fires. Some organizations that Team SLAC are donating to are:  https://mutualaidla.org/ https://give.pasadenahumane.org/give/654134/#!/donation/checkout https://shorturl.at/SGW9w Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Kulties! Wait, don't skip. I gotta tell you something. My book Kultish, which inspired this whole podcast, is finally coming out in paperback and I'm hosting two incredibly special live tour events to celebrate. The first is in LA on June 9th and is a Kultie live podcast book tour variety show featuring so many special guests including my co-host Reese, former guests Jamie Loftus, Raven Simonet and Miranda Pureman Mayday, plus drag and burlesque performances and other transcendent surprises. And then I'm doing an event on June 13th in New York moderated by the cult-followed author

Coco Mellors. Check out AmandaVonPel.com slash events for info and tickets. I so hope you join us for these also special events. If you're a renter, you should really be taking advantage of BILT. With BILT, paying rent finally pays off. There's no cost to join, and just by paying rent, you unlock flexible points that can be transferred

to your favorite hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and more. When you pay rent through BILT, you unlock flexible points that can be transferred to your favorite hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next lift ride, and more. When you pay rent through BILT, you unlock two powerful benefits. First, you earn one of the industry's most valuable points on rent every month. No matter where you live or who your landlord is, your rent now works for you. Second, you gain access to exclusive neighborhood benefits in your city. So if you're not earning points on rent, my question is, what are you waiting for? Start paying rent through BILT and take advantage of your neighborhood benefits by going to

joinbilt.com slash cult. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash cult. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Joinbilt.com slash cult to sign up for BILT today. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform to help entrepreneurs build a gorgeous website to stand out and succeed online. Sounds like a cult.com is a Squarespace website

and updating it is incredibly easy. Setting it up took like 30 minutes. Squarespace is best in class for so many reasons, including their design intelligence feature. Squarespace also makes it super easy to sell content on your website. You can also set up really effective email campaigns using a Squarespace website.

Their email campaigns contain all of the tools that you need to engage your subscribers, drive sales, and simplify your audience management. Check out squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations.

The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The truth is, no one cares about you. The people you worship don't care about you. Because of that, now the rest of us don't like you. They're sitting thinking that a woman needs to just choose them, and that all a woman is is the social arbitrator of sex,

and that women, on the whole, can't discern between personalities. They only want money. They only want to be bred. These perspectives that have long controlled us more implicitly are just being allowed to become the explicit cultural norm, which is obviously terrifying. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of the book Cultish, out in paperback May 27th.

And I'm Reese Oliver, your co-host and Sounds Like a Cult's coordinator. Every week on this show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist, from Horse Girls all the way to Shenyang to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? cult. But is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A live-your-life, a watch-your-back, or a get-the-fuck-out? Because not every group with culty vibes is out here searing their initials into their followers' flesh. Cultish influence these days exists on a spectrum, from the harmlessly quirky to the deeply dangerous.

The point of this show is to explore how fanaticism creeps into everyday life, to examine how power and identity can get warped in the weirdest corners of the internet, and to critique the places you might not think to look but definitely should like say anonymous message boards full of men who believe society owes them sex. That's right. Today we're talking about incels. Buckle up. Buckle up. Get your barf bags ready. Yes. Vomit bags are in the seat back in front of you. I guess by way of disclaimer, I wanna communicate to the listeners

that when it comes to the cult of incels, there is so much to unpack and so much of it is extremely disturbing. We only have an hour and this is ultimately, it sounds like a cult episode. So we're mostly gonna be covering the basics here and then, of course, analyzing incels through our culty lens. We are very excited to share the great conversation

we had with our interview guests later, the host of the podcast, last podcast on the left. But I do want to mention that we are going to be sort of intentionally steering clear of diving too deep into content that might be overly triggering. We will absolutely link some further reading in our show notes, but I guess our goal here on this episode is to stay true to the promise of this show, which is to have conversations about everyday cult influence in a way that doesn't leave everyone feeling totally drained

and terrified of society while still conveying the gravity of the issue at hand, if that makes sense. How are you feeling going into today's recording, Reese? Cause I didn't think I was stressed about it. And then out of nowhere, I broke out in literal hives this morning. Oh no. Do you think it's fear of the installs?

Like, what do you think? Well, and I mean, we'll get into this in our conversation, but I feel like there was once a time in recent history, five years ago, when someone would bring up the word incel and what came to mind was immediately just like, a loser with a rat tail in his mom's basement spending like 14 hours a day on 4chan. And that was very threatening,

but it's someone who I could, like, I guess, psychologically easily dismiss. And I didn't actually fear them coming for me. Like my fear of them was more abstract. But now, especially with JD Vance in office, I feel like incel means more than that. The term has become more diffuse and the culture has become more widespread. So I feel like there are dudes who might not even identify as incels and even women who might not even identify as incels but have adopted that mode of behavior and that perspective of the world. And I guess I am a little afraid in a very real way of those people. Yeahly I feel kind of similarly. I think incel yes was somewhat of an adjective I could use

to describe a large group of people, but also by and large seemed easy, like you said, to punch down at because their whole bit, their whole kink, is their own subjugation. So it's like they're dismissing themselves for me, I don't really need to do it myself. But as more people are kind of utilizing incel culture as a way to participate in marriage and to participate in more mainstream life in a bad faith way and from a place where they're actually internalizing this incel ideology, even if they recognize that that's not how real people in the real world function. They subconsciously know that it is beneficial to them in their ego to function within that ideology. And that is very pervasive and within everybody now. And what's really scaring me about that more in recent times is the fact that this quality is becoming a lot more tangible of a cult and that it's

becoming more of a political movement, more of something where the people are saying like, yeah, no, this is something we should rally around and enforce. And it's not just like a quality of our existence, but is something that we are reclaiming and weaponizing. And that's, that's scary. And the consequences are so extreme. Like did you watch adolescence on Netflix? Well, I don't know if this is just my algorithm

or the fact that I knew this episode recording was coming up, so I've been paying closer attention to the subject matter or what, but I feel like a lot of in-cell media has come my way recently, and the show Adolescents on Netflix, it's an English show, is the most recent example. The show is a masterpiece, it's four-episode miniseries, and each of those episodes was shot in one take.

It is such a feat of cinema, and it centers on this 13-year-old boy who is accused of stabbing a female classmate to death, having been radicalized by incel culture on social media. Not on 4chan, not in the sort of subterranean mole person cave that I would. Yeah, no, like literally on Instagram. In the show, he was radicalized by incel culture via emojis on Instagram. And the creator of that show based the story on news pieces he had seen

in real life of young boys being radicalized as incels and stabbing little girls to death. So the worst case scenario of this cult is we're not just like teeheehing about Costco lovers not shopping anywhere else. This one gets really bad. Karly Yeah. And I think because they are so self-pejorative, it's easy to laugh at them. And because the nature of their cultishness is at first glance sexual, in that they're

frustrated someone won't fuck them. And I think that's really easy to laugh at and something that you don't really immediately connect harmful, dangerous consequences with. Yeah, to start us off, Rhys, I feel like we should back up and define what the fuck even is an incel. I'm the first one to tell you this. I don't know whether to apologize or to be a little jealous. I guess I can do both.

The term incel is a portmanteau of the words involuntary celibate. And the Anti-Defamation League defines incels as heterosexual men who blame women and society for their lack of romantic success. That's pretty simple. But incel, not to be confused with vol-cel, there's so much vocabulary here, meaning voluntary celibate. And when I think of a vol-cel in a culty context, I think of like a nun. Oh, yeah. I was gonna say that's like, that's just spiritual. Yeah, incels are not trying to like marry Jesus. They don't stand for something they stand. I'm trying to marry their mom. Let's be real. Anywho, as with most prominent things in society, although you might think this was invented by a man, believe it or not, the term incel was actually coined by a woman. Her

name was Alana, and she started a little passion project in the 90s called the Involuntary Celebussy Project. It was essentially a support site where people, mostly shy, socially awkward folk, could connect and commiserate over their lack of romantic experiences, which is like honestly so much of social media today, I feel. And the word incel, it came out of that community. But as always over time, that support vibe got completely hijacked and corrupted for the worse. Yeah, and I feel like there should, and in a more utopian alternative universe,

there could be a version of the cult of incels that is a live your life. Like, I mean, we are living in a time where young people in particular are experiencing more romantic rejection than ever before. Actually speaking of incel media, another piece of incel art that I just consumed was the book Rejection by Tony Tilithamoodie. Have you read this? Have you seen it around? No, it's on my list.

It's great, particularly the opening short story. It's a collection of interconnected short stories about incels, but not the way that you might, again, like stereotypically profile an incel. The first short story is called The Feminist. And it is about this incel who starts out as like a hardcore feminist who like swears he's like trying so hard to be like the perfect picture of an ally to women and then that

behavior doesn't get him laid so the pendulum swings in the way other direction and I guess spoiler alert but he like ends up kind of murdering Ethan Selle. But like, I think that the publication of that book in tandem with adolescents coming out, I do think it says something about our time, which doesn't necessarily have to lend itself to something cultishly violent, but unfortunately has, which is that like people are lonely, people are isolated, people are not connecting with one another

the way that we once did, which is not to say that society is overall worse in every single way, but we are experiencing some growing pains with regard to how we commune and how we connect. And there should be a sort of support space for that, but it is so fucking unfortunate that the incel community started out as something

that could have been positive and evolved into this terrifying and harrowing thing. No, it's truly so tragic. And, like, I think of a more wholesome version of what would otherwise be an incel story. And as you were talking about that, what came to mind was crazy, stupid love. Oh, yeah.

Because in that movie, you know, his wife divorces him. He's sad and lonely. And then you think that the premise of the movie is Ryan Gosling, spoiler alert for a crazy stupid laugh, it came out in 2001, get with it. You think the premise is going to be that Ryan Gosling giving Steve Carell this big macho man makeover and getting him laid with all these lees is what's going to get him his mojo back, but in the end the only thing that he really needed to do was like be a decent person to his wife and like reconnect with the people around him and like

be an empathetic human being. But I think where the incel community kind of misses that opportunity is that they have reached that juncture of like, okay, we have a problem. And it's not we need to change. It's like everyone else needs to fall in line and this is the way that it is. So even with the way things being as they are, I need to find power within that, which I will ultimately do by subjugating others. So by the 2010s, what had started as a gender neutral support term had mutated into an online club's subculture steeped in entitlement, rage, and dangerous ideology. And not enough deodorant. But most importantly, according to a 2022 study in Current Psychiatry reports, incel ideology is built on a few core beliefs. One, they believe that we live in a

looks-based caste system where your face and body essentially determine your dating success and place in society. Two, there's this idea of hypergamy, that women are way too shallow and selective, of course, and that they only date up to gain social clout. That's the only reason we wouldn't want to fuck you. Sorry, I'm getting angry. And three, there's major distrust, if not outright hatred of feminism.

Because to them, gender equality is seen as a threat, and it should be, I am a threat to you. A big idea within the incel community is this belief that 20% of men are monopolizing 80% of women are like the dating pool, which leaves incels with only 20% of viable women to date who are still only desiring the top 20% that the other 80% are already with. It's like weird incel math.

You don't want to try to do it. That Grant psychiatry report study goes on to say that, quote, as it was, feminism that promoted and encouraged women to have a deserved right to say that, quote, as it was feminism that promoted and encouraged women to have a deserved right to sexual agency, there has been much discussion in in cell forms dedicated to the reversal of gender equity. Many of the proposed solutions involve some form of coercion, rape, or a complete return to enforced monogamy

under strict patriarchal rule. If you're a renter, you should really be taking advantage of built. patriarchal rule. If you're a renter, you should really be taking advantage of built. We rack up points on groceries, travel, and nearly everything else, so why not on one of your biggest monthly expenses? With built, paying rent finally pays off. There's no cost to join, and just by paying rent, you unlock flexible points that can be transferred to your favorite hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and more. When you pay rent through BILT, you unlock two powerful benefits.

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miles and hotel points around the world, meaning your rent can literally take you places. So if you're not earning points on rent, my question is, what are you waiting for? Start paying rent through BILT and take advantage of your neighborhood benefits by going to joinbilt.com slash cult. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash cult. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Joinbilt.com slash cult to sign up for BILT today. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform

to help entrepreneurs build a gorgeous website to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it super easy to set up your website, engage with your audience, and sell absolutely anything from products to content to your valuable time. Sounds like a Colult.com is a Squarespace website and updating it is incredibly easy. Setting it up took like 30 minutes. Squarespace is best in class for so many reasons, including their design intelligence feature, which combines two decades of industry-leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology. Squarespace also makes it super easy to sell content on your website,

like online courses, blogs, videos, photography. You can just put your content behind a paywall and charge a subscription or a one-time fee for access. You can also set up really effective email campaigns using a Squarespace website. Their email campaigns contain all of the tools that you need to engage your subscribers, drive sales, and simplify your audience management.

Set up automated emails to build connections while saving time. And easily integrate your products into email templates to drive sales and increase site traffic. Check out squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash Colt to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. So I think just to sort of start to get into our culty analysis, first of all, it is colloquially said, and I think it is also in large part true, that what motivates people to

join the cult for them, whether it's a new agey spiritual sect or incels, is some form of vulnerability, some form of seeking. And extreme loneliness is a pretty intense form of vulnerability. That is the gasoline powering this cult essentially is loneliness. And then you have this digital gathering space in the form of these forums where sure, most of the time incels are not like convening IRL and dressing up in matching outfits and doing all the fun parts of a cult. And I think the fact that they're not doing the fun parts of a cult, like- Missed opportunity.

Yeah, it's part of the reason why all of this is so violent and why all of this sucks. But in lieu of that kind of like tangible connective tissue, they have a lot of language and a lot of ritual. And it is very easy to radicalize someone with all of that abstraction, you know, because that's all they have. Like, occult IRL, I'm spitballing here,

but I have to think based on all that I've seen, there's a lot of distraction going on in good ways and bad ways. It's like the radicalization might happen slower because people might be like busy over there at the crafts table or like busy organizing the food or whatever. Commuting over other healthier things on the little side quests. Exactly the side quests are distracting from what might ultimately be a violent and fucked up main quest. With incels, there's kind of only a main quest, which is violence against

women. They've set an objective. Yes. So speaking of abstraction and how language is really one of the main unifying pieces here, I kind of want to linger a little bit on the vocabulary of it all. As those who've been listening to this podcast for a while may have heard me say before, no culty internet subculture would be complete without its own secret language. The incel community lives for its little glossary of twisted slang. One of their core metaphors is the red pill versus blue pill, which was co-opted from the matrix. A blue pill person in incel culture is someone who's still asleep, blissfully unaware of the so-called truth about love and society, i.e. not buying into incel ideology.

Taking the red pill means you've been enlightened to the belief that women and only women are in charge of sex and dating and you're basically a victim of this cruel system. And then there is the black pill, which is when you believe that everything is hopeless. You've crossed into the event horizon, you come to understand that you will always be unwanted no matter what you do. No amount of self-improvement or social change will ever save you. So that's sort of like incel ideology and language 101. And it is important to note that this sort of pill popping discourse is not exclusive to incels. It also overlaps with the alt-right, QAnon conspiracy theorists and a general poo-poo platter

of internet weirdos who think that they've unlocked the truth and now have to evangelize to the rest of us, poor sleeping sheep. And with our guests later, we will analyze a little bit further the sort of culty crossover among all of these different but ultimately shoulder-to-shoulder misogynistic culty internet groups of today.

I have always loved the right-wing co-option of the Matrix blue pill and red pill metaphor because it is a metaphor for the trans experience. The Matrix was written by two trans sisters and the Red Pill, the true reality, is your true gender identity. So all of these very hateful groups are co-opting this ultimately very wholesome and very leftist sentiment and they just think they're really doing a big one on all the snowflakes and they're supporting trans people while they're doing it. So it's funny to me. I feel like in these abstract cultish spaces, there is a lot of like co-opting and intermingling from communities that ultimately are not in line with what you believe, but like the symbolism

is so juicy and already there and fleshed out. The mechanism works. Yes, I mean, we did end up discussing this with our guests, but it's sort of in the way that like, sort of a leftist nihilist doom slang using internet edge lords and trolls who share memes online that like the world is burning, blah, blah, blah, for like a neoliberal reason will sometimes accidentally

use the Wojak and like other products of incel culture. So there's a lot of sort of fluid swapping, if you will. That's scary. Yeah, so back to our sort of incel 101 vocabulary lesson, incels also have their sort of cast of characters that they love to discuss. Chads are the hot, confident guys who supposedly get all the girls. Stacey's are the attractive women who are somehow both idolized, yet the whole reason they're incels. Becky's are average looking women who incels believe owe them sex. Look-smaxing is the act of trying to reach your full hotness potential through a mix of skin care,

working out, and even plastic surgery. There's also a whole host of derogatory words for women like femoid or FHOs, female humanoid organism, roasties, the whole thing. It gets really gross and ugly. But if you back up and just, again, look at the mechanism and look at the bones, this type of vocabulary and this type of labeling system and classification system is motivated by some of the same things that draw people to astrology or Enneagram.

I think there is like a deep, deep desire to want to create a taxonomy to better understand the world, to make the world feel predictable. Again, all of these overlapping culti communities that we've been talking about, QAnon, incels, white nationalists, what have you, they're all like sort of conspiracy theorists who ultimately feel like they are not in control of this like reality that they've read slash blackpilled themselves into and having all this terminology sort of makes them feel better. Like they can understand themselves in the world better

along the way, which is like what some live your life level cults do too. I think that's a very profound human thing to want. We all just wanna organize things and put things in cute little boxes. Yes. It's really just all that it is things and put things in cute little boxes. Yes. It's really just all that it is. Or distinctly un-cute little boxes.

And all of this kind of bubbles up into the toxic soup that is the Manosphere, an unholy alliance of incels, men's rights activists, alpha male influencers, and other self-proclaimed victims of feminism. Their foundational crusade is that women are the problem and men need to reclaim their dominance. So that is what this religion of sorts is fighting for ultimately. Disgusting. We will be covering several different Manosphere related cults coming up. And that does excite me because they're definitely the ones that are doing lots of damage and

I love hating on men. I do think that it is high time for us to face the Manosphere on Sounds Like a Cult because we've really let ourselves off the hook. We can't cover Sephora and Plant Parents forever. This is a cult podcast. There's Mr. Beasts to be talked about. So in addition to language, perhaps the biggest tool in the incel toolbox that we will be sure to unpack a little bit later with last podcast on the left is humor. According to a Canadian journal titled Incels, a guide to symbols and terminology, incels use dark humor, memes, and self-deprecation as a way to communicate and commiserate with

each other, but more often discuss ways to seek retribution against society, which involves targeted violence against women, self-harm, suicidal ideation, and the celebration of tragedy or violence where women or quote unquote normies have been harmed on the basis of their gender beliefs or access to sex. So as we stated, there is so much to get into with the cult of incels. There's the question of how this cult is structured, who exactly are its figureheads and leaders, why this group has exploded so much in very recent years and what we might actually be able to do in a hypothetical universe to deconstruct

some of these current members. In order to help us analyze, we wanted to bring in two people who really know how to dive into the darkest corners of the internet with humor, but also with insight. We are so excited to welcome Henry Zabrowski and Ed Larson from last podcast on the left. On their podcast, they have explored cults, conspiracies, and all kinds of creepy internet rabbit holes so naturally, we had to get their take on the cult of incels, how it forms,

why it spreads, and what makes it so dangerously appealing. So without further ado, please give a warm welcome to two men, but don't hold it against them. Henry and Ed from last podcast on the left. This episode of Sounds Like a Cult is brought to you by Booking.com. Listing your vacation rental on Booking.com opens the door to more guests. Booking.com is one of the most downloaded travel apps in the whole world. That makes it the place to list your vacation rental if you want to earn more with consistent bookings, reach new markets, and turn hosting into a steady income. Over the past 25 years, they've helped more than 1.8 billion vacation rental guests find places to stay. So why not

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Last podcast on the left. Welcome to the show. We rarely have men, so this is an honor. Right. Oh, I've rarely been called a man. Yeah. So thank you. Lots of firsts today.

Welcome to Sounds Like a Call. I'm so glad we're shimmying already. I'm shaking my fun bags. I'm letting everybody know I'm safe. Oh, yeah. No toxic masculinity in the house today. It's like humans burying their teeth is a sign of friendliness.

You just start shimmying so we know that. So we know that people come in peace. I am safe. Skeletons are the most safe. They're always showing teeth. Exactly. I'm just trying to show people that I am a busty man. And so I bridge.

Great. We're all busty men here on this recording today. Wow. This recording is already an incel nightmare. Could you two introduce yourselves and then sort of clue us into your introduction to the world of incels? Like, how did you learn about this community?

My name is Henry Zabrowski, and I learned about it by being a man and meeting other men and having a space anywhere on the internet. That's how I got introduced to incels. Being a part of the 2008 internet revolution, I was next to them and smelled them. What does an incel smell like? When's the last time you've been to an open mic? Yeah, that is the thing. There's plenty of incels there, but you know, it's good that they get out of the house and see sunlight Don't most open mics happen at nighttime though?

Well, that's when they are allowed to go outside It's like I am legend I am no longer doing the embracing the incel thing. I am not afraid of them. We can't dance around it Yeah, so we're gonna talk about it It's one of those things where I didn't know was real until like the internet boom and then it's just like oh I just thought like a couple people were assholes. You know, but like truth is like, it's like, oh no, it's like a huge community in a weird way.

And so it was a, it was very depressing when I actually learned about it. But I learned about it properly when I was a guest star in Henry's web series called Trollville, all about incels, which is a good look into them. My wife and I wrote a web series called Trollville all about incels, which is a good look into them. My wife and I wrote a web series called Trollville that was about the perspective of the OG rise of what you'd say the disaffected young man during the 2016 election, where we were at the time trying to talk about men that honestly have shut down over time and have

sort of given into the heaviness of how difficult it was, I guess, for them to join what I'd say is the social hamster wheel. And so they kind of fell off the hamster wheel. And now that was kind of led to the rise of Trumpism. And so we wrote a web series trying to kind of understand that guy and understanding that that guy is just a person just like anybody else trying to reach out. But that was nine years ago and it is really developed into something much bigger. So it's like at the time, everyone's like, well, how do these trolls function?

So I was writing from the idea of like a troll is just somebody in the end is looking for somebody to get him out and get him out of his cave. Like in the end, the old days, it was like if there were some kind of real friendship, real third place for them to go to, maybe they could pop out of this mentality. But now we're seeing that our vice president is one. So that's different. Things have changed. Yes.

Oh my god, that's so true. And we'll talk about who the potential cult leaders in this space are. But it kind of reminds me, we did in our season one, an early episode on the cult of flat earthers, which like, when you first hear about it, it just sounds like a joke. It doesn't sound like a real thing. It doesn't sound like something that you should take seriously, much less that's dangerous. And then you look into it

and you realize that it is this like gateway to so much more vile conspiratorial thinking. And that transition from like nine years ago to like having an incel in the White House is really so fucking frightful and shows the power of this cult. And there's a lot of people that will immediately say, what do you mean he's married? It's not about the sex part. It is not about being an involuntary celibate.

It's about the fact that you believe that women should definitely shut the fuck up and they should definitely have babies. And that's all they should do. Like that they literally, that's a massive incel line of thought that women should be given to men, which is what half these guys believe is sort of happening.

They think that if they become Christian, then they will be given a woman. And it's watching too much porn and thinking that's real life. I was gonna say, it's watching too much porn and thinking that's real life. I was going to say, it's like classic, super misogynistic patriarchy, whatever things that have existed for a long time, but just like turbocharged by the internet.

Yeah. What are some of the cultural factors that you think took the insult community from Lonely Dudes on Forums into a full-blown hate movement? You know, it's funny, because like Flat Earth, it's like a belief system more than even a cult, right? It's a thought form. It's like a thought virus.

And a part of it, I think, is that they embrace Flat Earthism because it is ridiculous and because they are doing something that it's like, I refuse to join in on your view of any view of society. I refuse to be part of mainstream society. I will believe in anything that casts me out of society. I refuse to be part of mainstream society. I will believe in anything that casts me out of it. I think the one thing that happened to our young guys that I read when we were doing our Anders Bravik series is I read a really interesting study that talked about shitposting and how it leads to radicalization and how one of the worst

parts about the internet is people like us that were irony soaked millennials that loved that comedy. I loved the comedy that came out of 4chan. I loved the funny things that came out of that world. And then slowly but surely, those funny memes started to become targeted and started to, it becomes an introductory thing. Like Anders Breivik, there's a direct line from him shit posting on the internet

to becoming a mass killer. And the problem really isn't the jokes, it's just what it allows these guys to do to eventually start saying, it's not a big deal, it's memes, it's jokes, you guys are blowing this out of proportion. Meanwhile, like what it is, is you are slowly becoming more and more separated

from society, because you don't understand why everybody else isn't on the joke It's because everybody else is terrified of you killing them And that's why the women are not necessarily think it's super hilarious the way you view them. Yes Oh my gosh Reese and I talk about this periodically because there are some sort of very like Self-victimizing internet figures who will get like cancelled here and there and wonder why why me whereas everyone else is looking at them and being like because you're fucking scary and we were like oh those people have incel energy even though they don't like meet the profile of an incel and i think you're getting to exactly the psychology and motivation there where they

have this like the world against me sort of like external locus of control thing going like a conspiracy theorist, but married with this nihilistic internet humor and irony that allows them to defend until the cows come home. bit. This is a joke. This is a community also of people who get it until yeah, everyone else on the outside is like, bro, you're like a terror threat. I mean, absolutely. That's when it's really become real now is because they were actively killing people before Trump. It was all like not cute, but like harmless almost. But then it all became very real, very fast, you know, and then it's just like, oh, we can't even joke around about this stuff anymore. Because this is it's just like, oh, we can't even joke around about this stuff anymore. Because before I was like, oh, there's comedy in here or whatever. Now it's just wildly depressing because it became real because before it was like,

this is absurd. This will never happen. Let's joke about it. And then it fucking happened. How do you guys feel like it is wild to see as a guy, right? Watching the last couple of years happen, the fact that I never thought culture itself would also swing towards them. I always thought the society will self-police. We will never allow this thing to become a part

of the quote, unquote mainstream. It's gonna stay fringe. How do you guys react to the fact that we're really seeing in present time a 50-year plan come alive? These are people, they are in the Supreme Court. They're in the way. It's exactly what they wanted.

Well, Reese is the future because she's very young. So, Reese, how do you feel? I suppose, I don't know if this is just the feminist rhetoric's course I took last spring, but I suppose I see it more of like the curtain is being pulled back. I don't know necessarily that a perspective is truly shifting so much as these people are feeling more comfortable to vocalize these opinions that have long been held and these perspectives that have long controlled us more implicitly are just being allowed to become the explicit cultural norm, which is obviously terrifying. But I

think the irony and the joke of it all, like you said, is a huge factor in that because, you know, it's easy enough to laugh at Pepe the Frog online, but then Pepe the Frog is like storming into the Capitol and it's right there in front of you. Yes. And they were too much of pussies to complete the job. That's what I'm saying about January 6th.

They didn't have the balls to complete the job. And now we're in this fucking mess. Yeah. Uh-uh. Yes. They made it messy, just not in the way you think. A similar thing comes to mind. I guess what we're getting at already is that like, incels are not just this sort of disparate,

threatening ideology. It is a cult, even though these people are mostly like, alone in their basement, because humor is the glue that keeps them unified. But I remember I spoke to a folklorist, Tom Wold, while I was reporting a chapter in my last book which covers this cognitive bias called the illusory truth effect,

which is our tendency to think something is true just because we've heard it multiple times. It's like this deceptively simple but very impactful bias where we mistake processing fluency for accuracy, which has always existed in the human mind or at least for a very, very long time, but takes on new risks in the age of information, including misinformation and disinformation. And I remember him telling me that one of the qualities that makes a piece of information sticky, especially a piece of false information, is humor.

It is such a sort of underrated tool or weapon of these online cults. And so many of us inadvertently use incel memes and incel humor. Like the Wojak, for example, makes its way into the sort of neoliberal side of nihilist memes. And I think through that, it is sort of like subtly perpetuating

in cell culture, causing it to show up in places you would never think to look, which, again, I think is representative of ugly impulses that human beings have always had. But they're coming to fruition differently in this like Internet mediated epidemic of loneliness. Well, here's very interesting, but at the same time, I wonder about, like, we can't make humor illegal, though. I know that's ridiculous to say.

Totally. It's not. It's not going to happen. It's not happening. They're the only ones that's saying it's illegal. They're like saying an awful joke and know it laughs like what? You know, it's like, Eddie and I unite.

We know the line. There is, like, a thing that you'd understand as a comedian in dark spaces that you can understand what the lines are, how you want to play with those lines. Empathy, yes, that is what I've developed. It took me years, Reese. It took me years to develop empathy.

You know, it's like talking about hours of therapy, all this kind of shit. And legitimately, it's hard because in dark humor spaces, that's a great way to get it out. spaces, that's a great way to get it out. Like it's a great way to express yourself. Like in these communities, right? Like I was reading about like, what was it?

Hope, hope or rope? One of the terms they use, the way they sort of express themselves is to funnily embrace the idea of suicidality, to have forums where they go and everybody in there are all like joking and leaving, like kind kind of, like, egging them on. And on some level, there is a genuine community bonding from it because they're all joking darkly about something that they're wrestling with. But on the other hand, there are people

that legitimately are excited to watch somebody kill themselves live. But how do you suss it out? I don't know. I know now we don't let them be there. Here's what I think a lot of it comes down to. And I don't, I think, you know, people like to like always point to cancel culture and all this shit. But the thing is, in cell culture, like men's rights people, when they talk about humor and is humor legal anymore and all this shit,

forget right and wrong. Let's just take right and wrong and throw it out the window. They're old jokes. You're not even like being funny in my opinion. You're just repeating shit that's been said for over a hundred years. You know, like it is like, there is nothing, you're not giving me anything new. You're not- Technically made, take my wife please real.

Yeah. And that's not cool. I'm so glad you said this because like, this is another thing that I think makes incels a cult specifically is that they're so unoriginal and so boring and so conformist. Incels do not have original thoughts or like modes of. What do you mean?

Because they get their news from memes. I really do think it comes down to laziness and the inability to create, the inability to write something new to have a new idea After the me too movement and everything changed comedically. I personally I was excited like I was like, okay We get to like write new shit. We get to like come up with new material We get to like do new things now We know it's not like everyone's weight like nothing makes me more upset more upset when, like, someone uses, like, make me a sandwich as, like, a punch line. It's just like, not only is it, like, fucking rude as hell and, like, a dickhead thing to

say, but it's not smart. You're just repeating shit that your grandfather said. Exactly. At some point, you have to realize that times are changing and you need new jokes. And you are too lazy to write anything new yourself. I believe a true comedian entertains the audience that is there. The idea is that as a comedian,

you should be seeking to grow and change because the audience is changing. So you should be trying to change. Even if you come at it selfishly, like it's good for you, it's good for your art. But I think there is just this hive mind, whether you wanna call it laziness, whether you wanna call it brainwashing, whether you wanna call is just this hive mind, whether you want to call it laziness, whether you want to call it brainwashing, whether you want to call it conditioning and coercion,

I don't know, but there is this profound lack of individuality and critical thinking in the in-cell space with like humor as the excuse and as the guise or facade. It's incredibly cult-like in such an unexpected way. In your research though, what is it you think that drives them to be inherently violent? Do you do any research into Nathan Larson? No. Unpleasant man. He self-described quasi-neo-reactionary libertarian.

He ran for office. He wanted to get rid of all women's rights. He wanted to get rid of all ages of consent, and he wanted to get rid of any laws on incest. Fun guy. And he made many websites. He was one who made a website, one of the big suicide driven forums and several of the big incel forums. Like these are the guys that are essentially egging guys on to kill people. Now he's, he starved himself to death in jail, which is kind of nice. Sad that he left a good looking corpse, but the rest of it is really like it's it's just unfair But these are the type of people that are driving that energy forward I mean, I think human beings have never been nice in some ways

Were sort of better behaved than we've ever been. I had a narcissism expert explain some of this context to me Um, dr. Romany de vasila. I don't know if you're familiar with her work. I watch her youtube. Hell. Yeah She was saying, you know, like narcissism has always existed. Like anyone who's ever made it into a history book was probably a narcissist. People have been like killing each other and fucking each other up for reasons that were somewhat justifiable at the time and also not justifiable at all since the dawn of time. And now, again, I think people are leaning

into those time-honored violent impulses, in part because of the permission structure that those in our government are now providing, and also again, in part because it might start out as just a bit, and then slowly, but surely, like the cliche of the amphibian getting heated in boiling water or whatever, slowly, they realize that they have actually turned to legit IRL violence.

Well, also, we were all taught wrong. I'm in my 40s. And we were all like taught incorrectly by our parents, both to me, from me, both sides, you know, our grandparents, our uncles, you know, even like kids a little older than us, we were all taught wrong on how to treat women. We were taught if they say no, keep going, keep trying. Women only like bad guys. They only like dudes with bad attitudes who treat them bad. If you're good, you're never going to get them. You know, like we were all taught to be horrible.

Technically, that's black pill ideology. What is that? That's the idea that you're caught in a social case that you cannot remove yourself from. And so you are always going to be an incel because society will never let you go up the ladder to Chad, to Alpha, which unfortunately we are. And I want to say we are wielding the power of the Chad very gracefully. Yeah, but you were always, as far as, like, movies went, you were always, like, rewarded, you know?

Like, if you kept chasing after the woman, and you, like, you ran to the airport, and you went down to the terminal, you can't leave, you can't leave, like, leave her alone! She's leaving, you know? There's other people. And then that just became part of our brains, and we're like, oh, if. She's leaving. You know, there's other people. And then that just became part of our brains and we like, oh, if I care about someone, I have to like stalk them. It was put in

movies, put in music. Eddie, you're talking, this is not even what these guys are doing. So like, these guys, I wish they were doing romantic pursuals. I wish they were writing poems. I wish that they were doing stuff like that. They're not. They're sitting thinking that a woman needs to just choose them and that that's all women are, that all a woman is, is the social arbitrator of sex. That is viewed as the success marker for anything and that women, on the whole, can't discern between personalities.

They only want money. They only want to be bred. And that if you can't do either one of those things, they will not choose you. And as soon as you can't give you those things, the conditionality of it goes away. And now I had to go through a whole process in therapy, talking about toxic masculinity and how it affected my brain. And it's very interesting to see.

It takes a while to break out. Like, the idea of, yeah, there is, is like a feeling of men believe that men are conditional, that men are meant to be sacrificed, men are meant to die and go to war or do this type of shit. But you know, now I feel like we don't do that enough. I feel like all these broccoli heads need to go into the fucking services. I think we gotta bring the draft back. Now that you're old enough to be out of it. Yep, exactly.

Millennials are fine, dude. It's the little ones. They gotta go into the... They need a spine. Millennials help make it, though. No, we're fine now. We're out. Okay, so what you have articulated is sort of like the central ideology of this

cult and like every cult religion tomato tomato, they all have one. But I think it's time for us to talk a little bit more about the structure and some of the so to speak patron saints in the cult of incels. Yeah. So you had mentioned Nathan Larsen as kind of a figurehead for these incels. Another figurehead that we looked into a little bit was Elliot Roger, who was treated as a folk hero in some of these spaces. Who is he?

Elliot Roger, a self-identified incel. He carried out a deadly stabbing and shooting in California in 2014. This is the guy we were talking about in the car ride over here. Oh, I'm so happy I never learned his name. Yeah, fuck that guy. Yeah, fuck that guy. Well, this is my question. Do you find that people, do they lionize him or do they, or like it seems to be like all over the place sometimes. Sometimes they think he's a hero and sometimes they're like,

he's not a real one because he doesn't suffer in silence. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think this is true of a lot of these sort of more grass rootsy kind of internet cults where there's a lot of debate about what the internal structure should be because ity kind of internet cults where there's a lot of debate about what the internal structure should be because it's kind of structured from the bottom up not the top down.

But ultimately like a lot of these people are looking for a folk hero or a leader of some kind but naturally because it is such kind of an un-unified group there is gonna be some disagreement about who is worthy of worship, who isn't. Karly So like we were saying, there are certainly people who have idolized Elliot Rodger. In 2021, a Toronto man killed 10 people with a van and he cited Elliot as the supreme gentleman being one of his sources. So given these kind

of conflicting forces of wanting to turn Edwards and only idolize yourself, but also needing an ultimate figurehead, who do we think is the leader of this cult? Is the internet itself the guru? I mean, I can't help, I know it's knowing to say, but it's the president. Well, right now.

Yeah. He's the new, well, you know what? Donald Trump, I always kind of view him as in his own world. Everybody uses him to do whatever they want to do and Trump just wants to be out of jail. I don't think Trump does have a single genuine thought or belief. But he hates women, that's for god damn sure. But they all, that's just a part and parcel to what he does.

I think JD Vance is by far the main thing now, because it's this religious stripe that is doing the same exact thought processes as these guys. And they still probably won't include those guys in the end, because they're not Christian, but the incels like the fact that the far right is going to punish women. That's what they're really excited about. And so I think that's where the leader head, it's that stuff. We're looking at people like the idea of being cool to have multiple, like, I don't know, like obviously the Tate stuff. I don't even want to call him a figurehead because he's such a fucking loser. And so it's like, it's hard for me to give him that credit, but he's pretty close.

Yeah. Well, they all love him. They all love him because of his perceived, you know, who he is. And he thinks that he's got it all figured out. He keeps making money and they all are watching him make money hand over his fist. All these guys are just raking in cash and it's hard. I can see for a young man, it's hard to divide those two. And they don't want to change who they are by any way. And that's like the main part of love is just like not changing who you are,

but developing and like growing with your partner. And they refuse to do any of that. Whatever partner they're looking for is a subservient person who will just sit there and do everything they fucking say, or they fucking scare them into it. They abuse them. And it's just, it's. Well, honestly, that's also why they turn to religion, because it's already prepackaged. Yes. Yes. Okay. So we're already talking about like some of the crossover between incel culture and

evangelicalism and things like that and how like Trump really emboldened incel culture to flourish. Could you continue to talk about the crossover between the cult of incels and other extremist ideologies like QAnon or white nationalism? What do you think is like the culty crossover between those varying sects? The cult aspect is the fact that these are people desperate for community.

So QAnon, we've always joked on the show, is that it was always about the friends they made along the way. Leading to January 6th, it was about more so very lonely people that have decided that their view of life, obviously the internet helped a little bit, people not understanding that your phone has its own algorithm, that what you're looking at isn't what everybody's looking at. And so I feel like that's one thing that fucked with some people, the fact that they don't have

media literacy, the fact that that's really hard for them to parse the fiction and reality, they can't figure it out. And I think that QAnon allows them all to agree on a together reality, which allows them to a sense of comfort and a sense of belonging. And I think that incels is another thing where it's essentially, you're taking the fucking heroin you're taking that the version of fake heroin

You're taking fake heroin of togetherness. You're looking for a place to be heard and felt that's reason why they are starting to come together I think the incel thing partially was slightly overblown through period of time We're just seeing the same thought patterns are exactly like Sharia law just seeing the same thought patterns are exactly like Sharia law, evangelical religion and Mormonism. Yes. Any form of yes. Yes. All sorts of organs.

Like, I guess that's where the culty aspect is. And I think the idea of we get something that you don't get. Totally. Yeah. We understand something inherent about the world that you guys all don't understand or you're too up your own ass to understand. The incels are wise enough to understand that women won't ever get them. And so they need to be herded and given to us. Yes, actually, now that you're saying that, I'm realizing that like QAnon vocabulary,

I always like to zoom in on the language. QAnon vocabulary and incel vocabulary are different, but in these varying dialects, they're communicating some of the same meanings. Like to a QAnon-er, you're just sheep, but to an Incel, you're a normie or like you haven't yet been red-pilled. I don't speak this language. It's versus red-pilled. That's top layer is just a red pill that gives you a real dose of reality. Yeah, that's what's really going on. Walking in black pill means is that that information you can't do anything with. You know, now guess what?

You're going to die in himself. Now you could just throw a tantrum in your own persecution and just use it as an excuse to be an asshole to everyone forever. Because that's what is to the persecution complex is extremely important. Yes, yes. And the us versus, the persecution complex is extremely important. Yes. Yes. And the us versus them mentality this creates is obviously huge. And this leads to all of these echo chambers that exist online in the forms of these forums

we've been talking about. And these incel forums are really like the bizarro form of actual self help. They like take all of your pain and feed it back to you as this twisted nihilism. So what role do you think these forums serve in the incel community? And why do you think that formula works and continues to help grow the community? I mean, it works on our side too.

It's not like incels are gonna be listening to this. No offense, you know, but it's just like, you know. I hope not. I hope not. Fuck off if you are. No, I hope so. Honestly, it know. I hope not. I hope not. What? No, I hope so. Honestly, it gets down to listening to men talk to women.

You just have to sit and talk to somebody, ask them a question. You gotta fucking open up your brain. Yeah, and that's the main thing. They just want to hear what they want to hear. I don't want to be an incel's first woman. No, you can, listen, it's a huge opportunity. Some of them have stocks.

Yeah, I think, no, they all have Bitcoin and NFTs and they're fucked. I'm so scared. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm so scared. But I really do. I keep going back to just, I think it's sheer laziness, which was always rewarded our whole lives.

People were always failing up our whole lives and that's not happening as much anymore. That's why they try to keep women out of the workforce. That's why they want abortion to be illegal so women are forced to have kids and they know they'll stay home and take care of them and they won't be able to like go and be bosses, managers, you know, and all this shit because they know once women come into the workforce, once minorities come into the workforce, so do rules. And they do not want rules.

And it drives them fucking crazy that all of a sudden, they have to say the correct thing. All of a sudden, they can't say horrible words anymore. And it's just like, because they don't care about other people's feelings. But if you fuck with their feelings, you're the worst person in the world. Yes.

And then we all have Trump derangement syndrome. We're all the ones that are diseased. We're the ones that are out of whack with society. But that's again, it's features back into the us versus them. It's this we know something that they don't, which is why Flat Earthers work. It's why the people that used to be into everything, Bohemian Grove was used to work like all these conspiracies series also kind of revolve around this idea that there is a thing that we now know that other people don't.

Yes. So these forums then are kind of like this exclusive church space, this like digital sanctuary where those new rules don't apply. And that also reminds me of, did you see the comedian Alex Edelman's Just For Us comedy special? No, I haven't. I loved it though. He's a good guy.

It's so good, but I guess mild spoiler alert, but that name of his special Just For Us is quoting something that someone said in this circle of white nationalists that was like hidden in an apartment in New York City. They were having like a little meeting and Alex, who's Jewish, crashed it. And like his whole special is about that experience. It's so good and it's so funny and very profound and I highly recommend it. But when one of these white nationalists discovered that he was Jewish and he was like passing for a hot second there, obviously this us versus them mentality was was raging and they were like, get the fuck out of here. This space is just for us. Like we're the victims. This is our sanctuary. And that's kind of what these spaces

like 4chan are for incels. Truth social. You know, it's funny though, they're that part of me though that misses the, I get the idea of wanting to joke around in a nihilist space. I understand it implicitly. As a young edgelord, as an elder troll, I understand it entirely.

But it's just hard because in my mind, the culture side of it's one thing, which I was joking up before, but now we're seeing something else that's way scarier, which is the fact that it is doubled up by actual associations with money, with clout. Evangelical and incel thought rhymes. They are excited about the fact that the boys are jumping on

the bandwagon to help them get their aims across. They're doing it for the lulz, they're doing it because they want women to go fuck themselves, the evangelicals are doing it because they're trying to spring Jesus Christ coming back and the end of the world, which means we all die. Like at the end of the evangelical view of the world, there's 140,000 of them left and everybody else is dead. So part of it involves they want China to invade. They want Russia to destroy our systems because that all is, these are all seals that are going to open up. This is all real. This is literally the final plans of something like project 2025. The goal is to end the world.

And I know that that sounds insane. They are insane. They believe this shit's real. So that's the fucking problem is that they're all operating as if God's real and we're not. And it's like, unfortunately, it's the fucking opposite. That's kind of where the really scary part is, is because all these people are being energized by actually very dangerous people.

I'm so glad you articulated all of that because we were literally just about to ask like what you think is like the worst case scenario potential outcome of the cult of incels. And I think it's important to reiterate as you just were that like just because these people are fucking nuts doesn't mean they shouldn't be taken seriously. Just because they're sacks of garbage. Oh yeah, they have power in their numbers. But I also feel like the incel thing is also slightly like not it's not overblown, but it's still on the online driving force. It's these other things that are kind of popping out that are now mirrored along with it.

Like the stuff that we did a whole thing about what the LDS church is doing. Like all that shit is fucking another realm of this that is like you got the fucking Mormon church is sitting on $260 billion. They said it literally for a rainy day. You know what that rainy day is? We're all dead. Yeah.

The rainy day is- The money won't matter anymore. Yes, the rainy day is that we're all fucking dead and Christ came back and eliminated us. So this is the real end plan. The real end plan is this fantastical, ridiculous idea that nobody wants to maybe wrap their heads around, but if you're an evangelical, that's what you want.

Totally. I mean, I think the rainy day is probably the second iteration of Warren Jeff Zion getting invaded and they need to build a new camp. That's what they're going to have. Once they trigger the nuclear war that's going to kill everybody, they can then borrow, they can go live underground. So before we get there and before we watch our beautiful world crumble before our very eyes.

If you could deprogram all of the incels via Henry and Ed's incel deprogramming camp, what would that look like? Honestly, you're just going to sound crazy. I'm going to do something that no one's ever done to them before. And that's be nice. That's part of the problem is like they all had shitty parents. They all had shitty teachers. They all had shitty brothers and cousins. And everyone taught them through rudeness that you got to be rude, too

And if you're not first you're last, you know and all this shit when no everyone forgot how to have fun playing the game No one taught him this shit a long time ago It sounds stupid and it sounds hopeful and wistful and all that shit But I really believe that no one ever sat down to him and be like hey Don't you don't you think it'd be nice if your wife smiled? You know, like, don't you think it'd be nice if, like, you had friends that weren't like you? And then, you know, that's the problem, is they think that they have to be this beacon of, like, they are the kings. They are no matter what. But the truth is, no one cares about you. The people you worship don't care about you.

Because of that, now the rest of us don't like you. And I think the rest, now all of us hating them and not wanting to talk to them makes them triple down on their ideology. And unfortunately we have to sit here and actually listen to these fucking idiots and talk to them and be a part of their, uh, their resurgence into their like growth as human beings. I think that's actually, while it is kind of optimistic of you, I think it's very bell hooks-y of you. I don't know how much bell hooks you've read. I've never read any.

Is that a hamburger restaurant? He's definitely read the menu. Come on, everybody. Well, that's my rec for you then. My incel deprogramming camp, everybody's reading bell hooks. Everybody gets a veterinary copy of All About Love. No, she just talks a lot about gender relations and not a lot of the solution to the toxic patriarchal mindset is love and compassion.

You have to baby them. Because if you yell at them, they just shut down and then you're the idiot. And it's like, and even because it's because it also, you want to yell because it's so clear. It's so like, yes, it is so easy to say, be nice. But you know, but you can't, because once you start screaming at them, they just shut down. Yeah.

Well, there's also a part of me that says, why do you get to be coddled and the rest of us don't? Yeah. You mean, there's a part of me that says, I grew up in the same set of circumstances that you did. And what I learned as a human, the first thing that struck my mind was as a little boy is that when I started doing things that got a positive reaction, it meant something to me. Like doing comedy changed me from a little boy onward. When I realized I could give something. I think partially what people are lacking on the whole is meaning.

Meaning is the missing thing. It's not about God. It's not about faith. I think people immediately assume meaning means faith. And I think that that's garbage. I think that meaning should be everywhere. I think that if you could find a way to understand that what you do actually does contribute to society no matter what you think about what you do. Is that despite what you even think, you are affecting society. So you can choose no matter what, how you live is how it affects society. So you can be positive, you can be destructive.

We talked about it on the last podcast and left all the time. Being destructive is extremely easy. Buying a gun and shooting up town square is extremely easy. As we just saw a 14 year old can almost shoot the president, right? That can almost happen because it's easy because the guns easy to use. But you know what's really hard? Writing a poem that makes the president cry and change. That's so true. Ken is mightier than the sword. That's what's hard.

Yes. And spoken like a true Chad. Yeah, fuckers, come at me, dude. I'll fucking hug you till you cry, dude. You know what I love? You got a fucking problem? I will hug you and I'll put you on my fucking knee. I don't teach you to love a woman. I love telling those type of dudes that,

because I'll be at a bar in Cincinnati or something and you have to talk to them at some point. But I like literally, my favorite thing to do is to tell them, I'm a beta. I love being a beta. It is nice. You know, it's such a it's like it throws them through a roof. Yeah. I am five foot seven and I have a back full of back hair. I have a beautiful wife and a career. Anybody can fucking do it. Yes.

Anybody can fucking do it. Get your shit together. That's my message. We're desperate to play our game. We're gonna do it lightning round. Let's play a game! Yeah. Let's play a fucking game! This is a little game you may have seen floating around the interweb spaces. This is called He's a Ten, But.

So, we are going to describe a man who is a perfect 10 and then reveal a terrible red flag, something culty or otherwise incelly about them. And then based on that information, you are going to update their ranking for us. Okay. He's a 10, but he calls his diary his manifesto. Oh, four.

Yeah, that's no lower. Well, I mean... Manifesto could be good. Yeah, at least like he enjoys writing. I mean, journaling, you know? I mean, there's like getting your thoughts on paper. You know, a lot of people don't take the time to do that. Well, that's part of why he's a 10.

Yeah. But he does ultimately call it his manifesto. Yeah. But if he's too... If I find though, in the end though, if you find artist's way in there, he's just being weird. Yeah. You know what would be nice though? If it was all filled with recipes

and he called it his manifesto. And I think that's actually cute. See, that's different. Oh, that's cute. That's a Portmanteau. He's an 11. That's a Portmanteau. OK.

Now, for something less nice. He's a 10, but he takes classes on pick-up artistry. Oh. I mean, that's two, one, like. Hey, we were talking about this before. At least he's learning a magic trick. He's actually putting some time in there. I don't think building a relationship should be magic.

I think just be a decent person. It's about getting you in the door, Reese. It's about getting you in the door. Sometimes you'll be like, as much as we like, if he's awesome, right? Let's just say, if he learns how to do the coin thing once, you'll be like, oh, okay, that's kind of cute. If he's got a right? Like, let's just say if he learns how to do the coin thing once, you'd be like, OK, that's kind of cute. He's got a big hat because that's really what pickup artists say is they have a big hat.

Yeah. Or zoot suits. Yeah. You got to have some kind of you have to have jewelry. Right. A lot of jewelry. I'd say he'd give them a four. At least he's taking a class. OK. Yeah. Like at the learning center or whatever. Maybe here's the thing. I don't know. Here's the thing that's throwing me off at this game is I don't know the positives of

them. I told you the positives. He learned a magic trick. He learned how to dress. And he's meeting up with people and he's actually talking about women. Is he attractive? Does he have a good relationship with his sister? Whatever that means to you.

He's your perfect 10. Sam Rockwell. Exactly. Except instead of his White Lotus monologue, he is, for example, next one, he's a 10, but he's worn the same tunic every day for a month. That's a one. What's a tunic? Tunic is a, it's a pant leg.

The tunic is not really the problem. It's the not washing the tunic. A tunic is a full body dress. They used to wear them Roman times. It's a long shirt. You could wear it. It's a long shirt. You know, you don't know this. It's like Rick Owens. That's who I body dress. They used to wear him Roman times. It's a long shirt. You could wear it. It's a long shirt. You don't know this.

It's like Rick Owens. That's who I think about. Yeah. I know who Rick Owens is. Yes. I'm saying to Eddie. Eddie don't know. I have no clue who Rick Owens is.

I don't really know who that is. Tunics not a problem. Well, he could be into like, larping and stuff like that. The tunics could be. Wash the tunic. Wash the tunic. Have five tunics. You know what?

I'm going to say, I'm not going to judge people from how they dress. Maybe they like a long shirt. Wash them. I'm going to give it a six. OK. He loves renfares. He likes renfares.

I've never been to one, but I do love their existence. OK, next one. He's a 10, but he's a sovereign citizen. Of one. Oh, yeah, yeah, one. Get him out of there. He's going to get you in legal trouble. It's impossible to be a 10 he's a sovereign citizen. Both one. Oh, yeah, yeah, one. Get him out of there. He's going to get you in illegal trouble. It's impossible to be a ten and be a sovereign citizen.

Have you seen these guys? There's no, there's no, yeah, no, they're horrible. They're lucky they even own a thing. You're just going to spend a lot of time in court. Yeah, no, it's just, yeah, you're going to be living in a shack by a lake, you know? This is no, it's bad. It's a one. They're sovereign.

It's a one. it's bad Next one he's a ten, but he calls his group chat the Brotherhood of Sacred Truths You don't really know like what's going on You know, I do my my high school buddies are group chats called tank destroyers and it sounds like a really like macho school buddies are group chats called Tank Destroyers. And it sounds like a really macho, upsetting thing, but it's actually named after one of our grandfathers who fought in World War II, and that was his job. And he liberated a concentration camp. So when you think about it a little deeper,

it's actually kind of nice. OK. Am I the only one that doesn't name my group chats? I don't like naming group chats. Sometimes you don't have a choice. They just come named. Anything that encourages, like, a healthy expression of a flair for the dramatic within men, I'm here for.

So I... Same. Men, wear colors. Talk about how you feel. Be people, please. Okay. He's a ten, but he carries his worn and tattered copy of Catcher in the Rye everywhere he goes. Oh, it's even hack now. That's what I would tell him. Get a new manifesto. How old is he?

Mmm... Nineteen. If he's 19, I think it's okay. You know what's funny? That's fine. Have you ever read Catcher in the Rye? Forty-five. Yeah.

You gotta send him to the farm. Well, because if you don't... Because when I read it in high school, I was like, hold the coffee with some man. And then when I read it after college, I was like, oh, he's a shithead. And that's when you begin to realize, oh, it's good to me, maybe, but no, no, no.

19, I think is a pass. Again, still like, at least he's reading. Yeah. You should be taught to question authority a little bit, you know, when you're that age. And then, you know, when it goes too far. Yeah, you should be anti-phonies when you're in your 90s.

I know, I was gonna say, I'm anti-phony. I think a much redder flag is when a man carries around his worn and tattered copy of Lolita everywhere he goes. Yeah! Oh, absolutely. There's a lot of hidden poetry in this. You never know, I mean, like, you read something, and then it's not until you get older that you read,

because anyone, Reese, I'm sorry if this is bad towards you anyone under 24 isn't even worth talking to Reese trans then time Just an abstract concept. I'm buddy-hugging her. Okay, last one. He's a ten, but he quotes L. Ron Hubbard in everyday conversations. Henry does that. Is his name Henry Zabrowski? I don't know what to do about that.

Do you mean one of the most creative members of the 20th century? One of the most important thought leaders? One of the bravest thought leaders, one of the bravest, thickest men. I have the same body as him. And so I commiserate quite a bit. We would wear the same pant size. If me and L. Ron Hubbard were put into a bath,

we would displace the exact same amount. If he quotes David Miscavige, it's a much bigger problem. No, I actually feel like the thing about L. Ron Hubbard is that it's so hard to quote it. The worst is the guys that do. Keith Raniere, he's a fucking loser. You got all the Scientology, ripoff religions, which are everywhere.

Neil Gaiman. Neil Gaiman. Neil Gaiman's doing it now. The Zizians did a bunch of that stuff. Something else, I think it was another group that just did a bunch. So I feel like in the end, it's like, it's mostly just, but do they know what LRH is actually saying?

Yeah, and if they're just into sailing, that's not bad too, you know. He's gonna let you have that. Do they even know what he's actually saying? I don't even know. I ironically embrace, I ironically embrace. I just love the fact that the guy came forward. Unfortunately, he was the number one con man

in American history until Trump, and so until he got presidency, then technically Trump took it. Whoa, that's a dramatic. It's like LRH was number one though, but he was number one one con man in American history until Trump and so until he got presidency then technically Trump took it. LRH was number one though but he was number one for one. Listen you are in a very safe space to ironically embrace cult leader-dom that's what we're all about and with that thank you so much for joining this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. If people want to keep up with you and your cult where can they do that? At LP on the left for all socials. Also, just send us money. Yeah, and last year, Box 470, North Hollywood, 91603. We're taking our gold, our cash. We will take your gold. We will take your gem. We like the money that jingles, but we

appreciate the money that folds. Basically, that's what I prefer. I know change. I don't want any envelopes filled with change. I don't have time for it. I find them a waste. Beautiful. Wow. I should start plugging that. I was going to say, I will hop on your masculine boldness and say that is also, I will take this opportunity to say that's applicable for us as well.

I love money that zangs. If anyone wants to show, like, send a barbershop quartet to my house. Jonathan Larson. Hey guys. You know what I'm selling with the four of us? You know what I'm smelling right here, guys? You know what I'm smelling? Bitcoin rug pull.

Meme coin rug pull. Oh yeah. Let's do it. Cold coin. Cold coin. That was a lot of syllables. I'll tell you what though. Henry and I are going to be in Atlanta with Marcus on last

podcast on the left. In June, at the end of June, we're going to be at Coca Cola Roxy at June 28th. And then on June 29th, Henry and I are doing two shows at Dad's Garage. The first show was sold out, so the late show is the only one that still has tickets. Get tickets, I think it starts at 9.30 at Dad's Garage. Come see Side Stories. Bring your smelly boys. We'll fix them Okay Reese out of these three cult categories I

wonder Are the cult of incels a live your life a your back, or a get the fuck out. I'm definitively not let in. I would have to join the fem cell cult, which that's a whole different cult for a different day. But yeah, I'm getting the fuck out. You should get your brothers the fuck out. Get your dad the fuck out.

Get everyone the fuck out. I know. This cult is so fucking scary. There's so much incel media right now. I was just watching that new HBO show about the emergency room, The Pit, and there's like an incel plot line on The Pit. They're everywhere, and I'm so scared

of incel radicalization. Kasey and I discuss procreation sometimes. I always say, I just want one little gay son. I know you can't choose, but. I, that's what I would like. I will love the person no matter what or whomst. That's my little joke. I am actually afraid of having a son

because I'm just like, this incel stuff is so scary. It's a big part of the reason my best friend Sydney and I talk about this often, like neither of us are having kids. And a good portion of that is like, there's no way to stop them from falling down the alt-right pipeline. Like I can, we can really try our darnedest, but like if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. And then you think, okay, well, I'm just not going to let them touch digital technology. I'm just going to move to a compound in the woods. And now

And then it's giving Waldorf Exactly A cultie in the woods and now. And then it's giving Waldorf. Exactly. A cultie in the other direction. Now it's giving Waldorf, now it's giving Jonestown at worst, you know? Like it's so impossible to avoid cultishness these days. It is just about joining the live your life levels. And this is distinctly not one of those. This is such a get the fuck out.

I think it's really important that we're talking about this. I think the incel media that has been bubbling up lately is important. Stay fucking vigilant. Holy shite. think the incel media that has been bubbling up lately is important. Stay fucking vigilant. Holy shite. Punching incel in the face. Go to an open mic late at night and punch one in the face just so you can find them. Yeah, I don't know. It's like. Never mind.

I don't want to open a new fan. Yeah, there's so much more we could say, but this is sounds like a whole episode and we have to go. That is our show. Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Not too culty.

Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of the PodCabin. This episode was created by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of The Podcabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montell and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by managing producer Tati Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cold. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot.

And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of the Natacism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality, and Wordslet, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio, 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. This episode of Sounds Like a Cult is brought to you by Booking.com.

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