Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Kidfluencers

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

Welcome to the internet, where a kid can lead a cult. From Ryan’s Toys to Piper Rockelle, the world of child influencers is vast, brain-rotted and constantly changing. This week on Sounds Like a Cult, Amanda, Iman, and Reese have journalist and author of the book Like, Follow, Subscribe, Fortesa Latifi (@hifortesa) back on the show to get a look behind the curtain at the workings of the kidfluencer ecosystem. We reminisce on the kid and teen influencers of yore (hello Tana), discuss the parents at the helm of family vlogging operations, and unpack just how much we hope the kids will be alright. Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles, @imanharirikia.  Come see Sounds Like A Cult LIVE at The Bell House in New York on April 21st! Tickets at amandamontell.com/events Thank you to our sponsors! To Save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain, Head to ⁠https://www.squarespace.com/CULT Join the loyalty program for renters at ⁠https://joinbilt.com/cult Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-on-one website platform to help entrepreneurs stand out and succeed online. Sounds like a cult.com is a Squarespace website. Check it out. It's super easy to update. Squarespace's features make it a wonderful option. I'm talking there, design intelligence. Squarespace payments also makes it super easy to manage all your payments in one place.

And I also love that using Squarespace, you can easily set up a fundraiser. Check out Squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to Squarespace. com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

When you ask kids what they want to be, the majority of them say influencers. They can't read or do basic math, but the kids are all right because they can show you their 10-step skincare routines or stream themselves cursing. someone out on a video game. There's an attention economy rooted in the faces of our children. So obviously, just like the 21st century bid for belonging. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Reese Oliver. Sounds like a cult's resident rhetoric scholar. I'm Amanda Montel, a linguist and author of books, including cultish. And I'm Iman Riri Kia, author of female fantasy, the most famous girl in the

world, and a hundred other girls. Every week on this show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist from the Amish all the way to bravo-holics to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our culty categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back, or a get-the-fought out. Because not every group that seems a little too culty for comfort is mixing up poisonous off-brant Kool-Aid the same way, honey. Cultish influence these days exists on a spectrum. From the slightly offbeat to the seriously concerning. The point of this show is to explore how fanaticism creeps into everyday life,

to examine how power and identity get warped in the forest corners of the internet, and to critique the culty places you might not think to look. But maybe you should. Like, certain seemingly adorable corners of your for you page, indeed. Today, we're examining the complex, controversial, and squeaky dirty world of kids influencers. That being a portmanteau of kid and influencer, of course. I wanted to ask you to, what is your like familiarity with the world of kid influencers,

like children who star on YouTube and other social media platforms generating like billions of dollars? Well, Reese and I were talking about how we both used to watch Tanna on YouTube and she got started really young, like maybe 14, 15. And she, in my mind, was one of the OG Kid Fluencers. But nowadays, when I think about Kid Fluencers, I think about that middle schooler who got her own Sephora line and thousands of other middle schoolers lined up to be the first to access it. And it's sold out in minutes. Yeah.

It is weird to see kids show up in traditionally adult spaces clearly as a result of kid influencers on the internet. I was at a Legree Pilates class, not a flex, but a couple days ago. And there were two 13-year-old girls. That just makes me sad. No, I was like, this probably is going to stunt your growth. Like, it's too heavy for me. And I was like, they probably saw a kid do Pilates on the internet. And we're like, I want to do Pilates in real life and then post about it on the internet.

Yes, this is reminding me. Amanda, I think I told you this story. I am an event server by day. And I worked at Bat Mitzvah the other week, wherein the girl had not only neon signs, but also merch of her initials that had been transformed. into the Allo logo, like the activeware brand. Oh my God, yeah. So it was like activeware themed like kids merch. You're country if you're listening. But you're 13 maybe you should say that. But you're 13 now. You know, welcome to the woman. Welcome to womanhood. But I do think that fitness logo corporate bootlicking from 13 year old children is a result of kid fluencing. And I was saying the Tanna angle is crazy for me to

here because I grew up on the YouTube's. So while yes, Tanna was a child, I was a younger child. So I am very used to like everyone I ever consume online being older than me. The only person who was like around my age when I got on this whole internet thing that I saw as really having any kind of cultural clout was like Ryan's toys. His bit is opening toys. Exactly. That's what I was going to bring up. Like when I think of canon kid fluencer, I don't necessarily think of the children of family vloggers who are sort of like worst into becoming internet stars and raking in money for their parents. If you have not already listened to our family vloggers episode, that's probably a good companion listen to this one. Rather, I think of kids who are the star of the show. I think of Ryan's world who at one point

was like the top earning YouTuber, I think, who just like, yeah, unboxes and reviews toys. He's like this little tiny hyper energetic child. And then I also think of kid hype houses. Like that. which was helmed by Piper Raquel. Does that name ring a bell to either of you? Thankfully not. I don't think so. Okay. So Piper Raquel is the subject of a Netflix documentary that I watched and was truly horrified by.

Even after all these years of commenting on cults in everyday life, this shocked me to my core. The documentary is called Piper Raquel and the Squad. And it talks about this really abusive, allegedly, majeure, who turned her to child, Piper, who was like, you know, a charismatic kid into a famous YouTube sensation, cast a group of supporting friends or whatever who blurred the boundary between like entertainer and actual friend, whatever, to kind of support her and financially exploited them, emotionally abused them, allegedly. It was really harrowing to see. And Piper Raquel will talk about her with our guest later because our guest for Tessa Latifie, who has appeared in a sounds like a cool episode

before, actually our family vloggers won. She has. She has. interviewed a lot of kid influencers, including Piper Raquel, who just turned 18, and there was all this creepy fucking speculation on the internet as to whether or not Piper Raquel, especially in the wake of like all this controversy surrounding the documentary and the content of the documentary, whether or not upon entrance into legal adulthood would join only fans. Oh my God. Yeah. And she did. And she made $2 million in one day. Oh.

That makes me sick to my stomach that people were waiting until she turned 18. You. It is pretty sickening. And so I am just so curious about how culty internet fandoms, it's so dark, but I'm particularly interested in like how they're affecting the lives of very, very young children and minors in a way that can follow them for the rest of their life, like growing up in fucking Scientology. It does kind of feel like child actors walked so that kid influencers could run. Yeah. And it is spooky because, you know, like with. child actors, you're a kid watching kids on TV and you think you want to be a kid on TV. Wouldn't that look so fun? And now kids are having that thought and they're telling their parents, oh, I want to be an

influencer, but there's no barrier to entry there. That's an accessible thing that you can do at any point and then mom realizes this makes her money. Exactly. Boom. It's spooky. Absolutely. And I also feel like the path forward is marketed to them at such a young age because there are so many how to videos online, people saying just because you haven't taken off yet doesn't mean that one video won't change your life. Keep going. Keep going. And unboggings and halls have become such a way to gain access, which also means like specific kinds of hit influencers are. Totally. In a certain, you know, tax bracket or their parents' tax bracket. Yeah. I feel like the low barrier entry to this particular type of what I might call low quality fame, mass consumerism, like fast fashion and just I guess not only desire, but

the almost deification of internet fame has created a kid fluencing cult that can explain Piper Raquel and Ryan's world, but also that alo yoga themed bat mitzvah. I feel like as is a shocker to no one, this is not going to be the most fun and lighthearted of episodes, but we did want to provide a more explicit disclaimer right off the top. A lot of what we are going to get into could easily be construed as or blatantly is child abuse, which is obviously not something we ever want to minimize here at the time. sounds like a cult. Of course, as we've mentioned in the past during stickier episodes like Mormon Therapy, Neil Gaiman, Mr. Beast. Sometimes the zeitgeier cults we cover, although not

technically classic cults, have extremely detrimental effects nonetheless. That's why we're here. Our classification and discussion of kid influencers serves not to obscure the abuse that can and does occur in the kid influencing world, but to re-contextualize it through a cultish lens so we can learn from it and we can learn more about tactics of mass control and why we behave in the culty ways we do. Well put. Very well put. So before we go any further, let's quickly just define what the fuck a kid influencer actually is. Kid influencer, yes, but also kid influencers like their adult counterparts can take on as many different forms as there are hashtags to differentiate them.

So kidfluencer is synonymous with anyone who was put on camera or made a public figure by a parental figure. or by themselves with implied parental permission for an extended period of time under the age of 18. So this means anyone from Jojo Siwa to the Rizler. Are you guys familiar with the Rizler? No. I'm familiar with the Rizler. Can you explain? You're going to have to Google it later.

I can't explain to you the Rizler. But a Rizler is like a ladies man, right? Yes. But there is only one the Rizzler. There can only be one. It's a singular RISL. I get it. Okay.

So Kitful and Sairs are basically like the digital ages that are. of the child TV star, a la like the cult of Nickelodeon, listen to that episode. If you have not, it is fab. What seems to be the common thread, though, is this undertone of exploitation and inorganic behavior on behalf of a child in order to garner clout. We did just say that child actors walked so kid influencers could run. And I do think it's important to document some of the history of the child entertainment industry with respect to the internet so that we can understand.

how kid fluencers are in more of a cult than kind of any child entertainer before. So obviously children being exploited for the sake of amusement on screen isn't a new phenomenon. Instead, it's one that has shifted mediums, as has entertainment technology itself. So notable developments in the children's rights sector of thought have influenced and been influenced by these shifts in children-based entertainment, like California's Coogan Act of 1939, which requires. a portion of funds earned by the child to be put in a trust fund to be accessed once the child reached 18, lest their parents like run away with it all. And the following revisions to the Kugan Act to close various loopholes. That didn't happen until the early 2000s. Now, in recent years,

the kids' TV industry has come under closer inspection as another wave of progress in this realm. If anyone does remember a Nickelodeon episode, they'll recall the Netflix documentary quite on set and the hullabaloo that ensued following its release. You might have also read Jeanette McCurdy's banging, skating, tell all about her life growing up in the entertainment industry. Her memoir, I'm glad my mom died. So this is kind of like the history of children's rights in the culty-ass entertainment industry until the internet.

Yeah, and all of this reflection in retrospective discuss feels obvious to us now, of course, but that's because the age of kids TV is dying or dead unless you're, of course, an animated Australian shepherd. What is that? Bluey! Oh, Louis. But nowadays, all the coolest six-year-olds are actually scrolling on TikTok with pint-sized Alex Earls to boot. Let's investigate how regular kids being silly on the internet became full-blown, PR receiving, Utah curling, bold glamour filtering, kid fluencers.

But first, I have a question for both of you. Do you think being a child actor or a kid fluencer is cultier? I'm going Kid Fluencer because really like the main thing that's flashing in my brain right now is the brand deal aspect of it. There's just a lot more avenues of unregulated monetization there. 100%. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, like I don't feel psychologically prepared to interact with people on the internet in the position that I'm in as an author podcaster. How the fuck is a developing prefrontal cortex supposed to healthily navigate those dynamics? There's no protections, especially if your parents are irresponsible. Like Jojo Siwa, what a great example. Like, Jojo Siwa is a product of some interesting parenting.

I will put it that way. She literally licensed her entire likeness and identity to Nickelodeon. And at 11 years older, however old she was, was best friends with Colleen Ballinger. Oh my God. Reese and I offline about the Colleen Ballinger stuff so much. We like don't have time to get into it right now. You're not going to pull out a ukulele and sing an apology to us right now. Different cult for a different day.

Different cult for a different day. But yeah, exactly. Like, right. So, okay, that actually is relevant, though, because, like, in the influencing space and, like, the vlogging space or whatever, like, it is still a Wild West industry. And part of the strategy to grow is to collaborate with other influencers. And so that can pave the way for kids to develop creepy relationships with adult creators, with parents of other kids. Like, this Piper Rock Hell documentary is so bone-chilling, I'm telling you, and shows the worst-case scenario of how this can go and we'll just leave it to our guest shortly to explain exactly what that looked like. Yeah, I also think there's just a level of accessibility with kid influencers that operates at more of a remove with child actors and also parasycial relationships where if you're seeing a new video every hour on the hour from someone, you can feel as if like you have unreaded access to them and that can lead to the blurring of lines between like reality and fantasy.

Oh my God, while you're developing your identity, I mean, anyone who uses the internet and posts is probably on some subtle level, like algorithmically orienting their identity. Oh, sure. But for a little kid whose livelihood depends on their engagement, they might decide to pursue romantic in scarecotes how romantic could these relationships be. But like a boyfriend or something because those videos are more attractive to their followers. I'm thinking about, like Tana went through some seriously. mess up shit as has come out in recent years. Just being a teenager in the influencing world, trying to navigate the networking side of it and like stay in the spotlight and maintain maturity, but also you're a child and that's what you're making money on. And by the way, I know we're

bringing up Tanna a lot. I just want to say that like I'm not a Tana fan. I think she's done a lot of problematic things. And we're not condoning any of her actions here. We just mean to say that like seems like maybe you being an influencer at the age of 1415 didn't have. the greatest influence on her actions and on situations that she was put into. And you're collaborating with people who also market their content to kids, but in many cases, they're older than you and perhaps have way more nefarious means. And I think also not to mention the level of like scrutiny and insecurity that can impact your brain before your prefrontal cortex develops when you're constantly getting negative

feedback or positive reinforcement based on your appearance, your personality. The jokes you made. All that. It's, I can't imagine how detrimental that would be. Some of these kids are daily vlogging. Every day, they're shaping themselves based on what their audience likes or doesn't like. That is not a healthy way to triangulate an identity. So it's so guilty.

Everyone's going to be the same person and they're all going to talk exactly like this. Oh my God, the YouTuber voice. The effect. Well, it's like I'm trying to do the TikTok voice over thing. That's where it's like the artificial voice that they put over. Yeah. I'm with me to investigate a cult. It's like, get ready with me.

Oh my God, you guys. You won't believe what I saw today when I, like, I saw a kid vlogging at the zoo the other day. I was at the zoo and this kid was vlogging the entire time in front of me. Or they're like, oh my God, I'm obsessed. Oh my God, you guys, it's so buttery, smooth and so, like, okay. So let's go down like a culty checklist. You have your sense of conformity.

You have your dissociation from reality. You're not fully present. You're vlogging. You're not even looking at the monkeys. And then like everything is so hyperbolic. The language, the like actions, how you look. Like everything, the saturation is so up to nine million. And then the cult leader cult follower dynamic, which I mean, there's kind of like the followers are both cult leader and cult follower and vice versa. There's such a power dynamic there. It's so scrambled. It's just forcing everyone into a type of reality that I'm afraid of the fallout. Who will kids be in 15 years because of kid fluencing? It's really scary. And I think we're seeing different iterations of it as we're seeing different iterations of it as we're seeing different. iterations of kid influencers over time. So like from Child TV, as we were talking about earlier, we have seen several different iterations of kid influencers that have gotten us to where we are today, usually orchestrated by the parents, sometimes not so much. You know, since people

could monetize their own internet presences, they've been using their children to do the same by extension in ways that are less than ideal. You know, millennials and older Gen Z folk may remember family vloggers like the Shetard's or Bertaley. I always feel really uncomfortable saying the Shetard's name. I don't know why they weren't. Why that's still like a thing, I don't know. But, you know, the children are part of a larger picture where the parents can tune in to watch parenting content, kids can tune in to watch kid content, but it's all kind of the same show. No, totally.

And this is still such a large faction of kid fluencing and often a very dangerous faction at that. Listeners may remember the Mormon therapy episode covering Ruby Frankie, Jody Hildebrandt, and the abuse behind the eight passengers YouTube channel. However, as kids are now being handed iPads at younger and younger ages, they're becoming more competent at not only consuming, but also creating their own content. Yep, they can't read or do basic math, but the kids are all right because they can show you their 10-step skincare routines or stream themselves cursing someone out on a video game. Like, this is allowing the parents to fade into the background and either neglect the operation entirely or worse and more often

behave as puppeteers that you as the viewer you're not supposed to engage with given that kid fluencing content is largely geared towards other kids and the people who like watching them. Okay, I'm not a parent and I'm sure that if and when I become a parent, I will not be able to resist the temptation to sometimes just like sit your kid with the screen, you need a break, whatever. I think a lot about like how I'll navigate that, but it's not my problem just get. Anywho, I do think it's interesting how many kids are literally being raised by a digital caregiver. By Ms. Rachel. Yeah, pretty much.

And that's probably affecting their development in really weird ways. But something that shows up in classic cults from history, including the cult that my dad spent his teenagers in Synanon, is like separating children from their parents or their parental figures and having them be raised by other figures in the cult. And so if kid fluencing is the cult, the world of that cult is encouraging parents to offload their kids to the cult leaders, those being like kid influencers. Kid influencers and their own followers. And so it's just like, guess I'll leave you in your bedroom to make us money now. Yeah. And combine that with pandemic isolation and all of the impacts that it's had on young people's ability to socialize too. It's almost as if they can only have this kind of like dynamic, ooh, social life.

online. Oh my God. This is going to sound judgmental, but I'm fine with it. You know how when you're out and about, you can tell when like a group of kids is like youth group kids? Yes. I feel like when we're out and about in the near future, we're going to be able to tell when a kid was raised by a kid fluencer. Because they're going to sound a certain way. They're going to sound a certain way. And just a certain way. And just behave selfishly generally. Like that kid that in front of me vlogging, do you think he was spatially aware of anything happening around him? No. I mean, obviously you're a kid. But, I mean, I've seen influencers act that badly, if not worse. Yeah, totally.

Just a sense of entitlement. But it's just funny. Like, I remember the affect of my peers being influenced by whoever was popular in the Disney Channel at the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, using phrases like, dang, nab it because Miley Cyrus would on Hina Montana. Oh, my God, that's such a good point. Yeah. And the same thing I feel like can be said for the way that kids are speaking now based on whichever niche microcelebrities they look up to.

So where are we at now, y'all? As we've stated, kid fluencing is children's entertainment de jour. And it does not seem like it's going anywhere. However, public opinion as of late, at least on our side of the zeitgeist, generally seems to be kind of disconcerted with this and is a little icht. And we're kind of ready for kid fluencing to die off or go away, especially in an era where cybersecurity is increasingly threatened. And our data is being ran through quicker than the last joint on Spawn Ranch.

An example of this newfound reticence to share our children is this kind of newer phenomenon I'm noticing wherein a lot of public figures or even regular people are blurring or fully retracting their children's faces from content they're sharing online. I think it's kind of sad because these were originally platforms so you could keep in touch with relatives you don't live close to and here's what my kids are up to and here's what my family's doing and now we're validly concerned that maybe we shouldn't be doing that because there's an attention economy rooted in the faces of our children. So true. Oh my God. Yeah. No, it is weird that there are a lot of people I went to high school with whose kids like I don't know what they look. Like,

I mean, I guess I wouldn't before the internet anyway, so it's kind of fine. But like, I guess it's just weird and awkward and a mirror to like the culty behavior that we all exhibit when we're online. That like I'll be looking at a photo of my former high school classmates family. And there's like a weird redacted blur over their baby's face. I'm just like, this says something spooky about us right now. And the cycle of criticism does seem to be shortening. Quite on set, the Nickelodeon docu series expose was made about. 20 to 30 years after the material it covers, but the kid fluencing cult has such chronic effects

that we are seeing docu series already being made like the Piper Rock Hell one that I mentioned. And we've also seen the release of Hulu's Born to Be Viral, the Dark Side of Kid Fluencing, which follows several Mormon kid influencers, because of course a lot of them are Mormon. And this is culty in a completely another dimension that religious parents, we're like, in a cult, are using their kids to recruit and evangelize. Oh yeah, you have seven of them. That's a whole vlog squad right there. It's like what in tech bros want to like repopulize Earth using their own seed. Yeah.

Yes. It's similar energies. 100%. Ew. Let's not say seed anymore. Anyway. But as we know, every action garners an equal and opposite reaction. And of course, this is no exception.

Many have seen and capitalized on the influencer boom from those popping out babies for content to those shilling products for them to shell to each other. once they are born. Oh my God. I am of course referring to Shea Mitchell's latest line of products, which is a skincare line for kids called Rini. Shea Mitchell was like a, she was like a pretty little liars. Emily. Yeah.

And she also makes the Bayes suitcases. Yes, I actually do have. I'm staring at mine right now behind you. I do like it, but I'm an adult. Yeah. And by the way, that's legal. We can keep it that way. And it's not the only one, Everly Lebrant, but I,

I should really actually say her mom and stepdad, Savannah and Colea Brandt, have recently released Bev Skin, their own competitor. Have you guys heard about this? Yes, I have. These are some fundies that I am deep into. Oh, okay. I used to tune in and then I got way too hicked and I pieced out. Well, the brand's gist is basically like, hey, your kid is probably skincare obsessed on TikTok, but doesn't need to be using those products with harsh chemicals and active ingredients. Encourage them to stop watching the content? No way. Instead, just give them their own products. Our products. Okay, something that cults and the skincare industry have in common is that they present a fake problem and the solution in the same breath. Like, cellulite is not actually a problem, but,

you know, whatever. This is the Venn diagram between the cult of the skincare industry, the cult of just social media in general, the cult of child abuse. It's just so spooky. And then like pointless child care products that prey on like first time parents and parents that are like anxious. Yes, because everybody has so much anxiety about like being a good, you know, like have I been putting chemicals on my baby's face? Maybe I do need Rini. How have we gotten here? It's the worst. Okay. Now that we've officially depressed all of our listeners and, you know, gotten the background that we need, we're very excited to introduce our guest today. We're lucky enough that she's actually a friend. Her name is for Tesla Latifi. She's the author of the new book, Like Follow, Subscribe, Influence Her Kids, and The Cost of Childhood Online. She's a journalist. She's a second time sounds like a cult guest. And she is here to answer our burning questions about, this kid fluencing cult. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-on-one website platform to help entrepreneurs stand out and succeed online.

So whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it super easy to set up a beautiful website that really represents you and your business to sell absolutely anything from products to content, even your valuable time, and help you engage with your audience. I am a longtime Squarespace user. Sounds like a cult.com is a Squarespace website. Check it out. It's super easy to update. Whether you are kind of a Luddite or a total web developer, extraordinary Squarespace's features make it a wonderful option. I'm talking their design intelligence, which combines two decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology to help you fulfill your strongest creative potential.

Squarespace payments also makes it super easy to manage all your payments in one place if you're selling things on your Squarespace website. And I also love that using Squarespace, you can easily set up a fundraiser. I genuinely and sincerely recommend giving Squarespace a try if you're interested in setting up a website of any time. Check out Squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to Squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. For Tezza, welcome back to Sounds Like a Cold.

Thank you for having me. Always so much fun. Can you, first of all, reintroduce yourself? And second of all, tell us about what brought you into the culty world of kid fluencing. Oh my gosh. Yes. Okay. So, hi, I'm Fortesola Latifi.

I am a journalist. I live in Los Angeles. And I'm the author of The Fourthcoming very soon, like, follow and subscribe, influencer kids, and the cost of a childhood online, for which I spent the last few years deep in the world of kid fluencing, mom fluencing, family vlogging. I'm not okay mentally if you're wondering. It was a real trip. But what brought me into it?

I'm 32 now and I grew up watching teen mom. Did you guys grow up watching teen mom? Yes. I was like so into teen mom because I was like 16 also and I was like, wait, I could have a baby and be stuck with my high school boy from forever. Like what? So I was watching it. And then as I grew up, I started seeing like the teen mom kids obviously growing up and like now

they're 16. And as they were reaching their teenage lives, I remember thinking like, God, that's so strange that like their whole lives have been like broadcast. And then I was like, wow, it used to be the. like really small cohort of like the Gosslins, the Duggers and the team mom kids that were like growing up in front of cameras. But now it's hundreds, if not thousands of kid influencers. And there's so much less like I'm not like saying reality TV is without its issues. But at least those kids were like being filmed, I don't know, a couple days a month, right? Kid influencers are being

filmed sometimes all day every day. And I was just like, wow, this is a really weird thing. And then I fell down a rabbit hole. Relatable. Okay. We're already getting right into it. But out of the gate, Fortezza, what is the most fucked up story living rent-free in your head from this cult right now? Okay. This thing that cannot get out of my brain is there's this mom influencer with a million followers on Instagram. And I was looking at her page for my book. And she has two pinned posts. And one of the pinned posts is a video of her son.

And he looks like he's dying. Like he is struggling to breathe. He's like having some kind of like medical episode. And the mom is holding him. And it seems like the dad is filming and the mom is saying there's something wrong with our son. There's something wrong with our son. Like we need to do something. And the dad's like, yeah, we do.

But he's just like, he's filming. And then the mom is like, we need to go to the hospital. And they were like camping or something. And the dad is like, the nearest hospital is like, I don't know, over like 15 miles away. And the mom's like freaking out. And the kid's little siblings are like crying in the background. And the dad is just like still filming. And like the kid.

And maybe this is because I'm a mom now. but I think it's also just like because I'm a human. But like the kid cannot open his eyes fully but cannot shut them. And he's like flushed and he looks so ill. And it's her pinned post on her page. That's disgusting. Because of how high the engagement was. I guess.

Oh my God. That leads me right into my next question. Who do you think the actual cult leader here is? Do you think it's the kid influencer themselves or is it apparent or maybe the audience or the algorithm? Okay, I'm interested in what you guys think about this because I've thought about this a lot. And I do feel like the onus is kind of on the audience and the algorithm. And obviously the algorithm is like not a person.

But like we are feeding the algorithm and so it's feeding us back. We wouldn't be getting all this content if we weren't looking for it or if we weren't into it. And we meaning like the general we. But I don't know. What do you guys think? I completely agree. Attention. I think it's our attention.

Sometimes I think. that it can be a little vague to say that because I just want to say it's Zuckerberg honestly. Well, someone created the algorithm, right? Like someone programmed this thing. Someone is at the end of all of this with the bag from all of us behaving this way. Yeah. Actually, my instinct was to say like tech overlords need to have like the moral compass to set regulations, but they won't. So that's what's really spooky because the cult leader is so hard to identify in this situation that. that the responsibility just ends up on the people that we know exist, which are the audience members. But who's to say what anyone should really do about this other than like stop watching the content?

But how is everybody supposed to agree to just stop watching it? And I also think who's the head of the cult is different from like who bears responsibility. Because for me, I talk to people in my book and they're like, oh, you know, it's the tech companies. It's the algorithms. It's whatever. Like they need to make the changes. And I'm like, they're a company. They don't care.

That's not their job to care. like the job to care is the parents job. And so like the responsibility to me lies with the parents and the government. Yeah. Well, maybe the companies that operate this way shouldn't be allowed to exist or operate. Like maybe maybe they should care. Maybe they should be able to care a little bit. Yeah. There are age restrictions on social media, but it's so easy to cheat. Yeah. This is reminding me so much of MLMs where it's like we put up some rules and call it done, but like there's no way to enforce it. And also like the age restrictions don't really help in this case because like, okay, so a four-year-old can't make an Instagram, but they can have an Instagram run by their parents. You know what I mean? So it doesn't

really like change anything. Oh my God. So the cult leader is like everyone, except for the kid. Diffuse cult leader. Exactly. And I think that's like the most insidious form of cult leader in terms of the groups that we analyze on the show. Okay. So there are so many different types of kid fluencers. There are like the obviously coerced children of family vloggers. That's That's not really the focus of today's conversation because we already did that one with you. There are the toy reviewers, like the Ryan's World people. There are the kind of like wannabe TikTok micro influencer kids. There are the Piper Rock Hells of the world.

Can you kind of explain the landscape of kid fluencing as it is today? And how did all of these different denominations of kid influencers come into existence? Yeah. So I write about this in the book. it all starts with the mommy bloggers of the early 2000s. And I feel like calling them mommy bloggers is kind of like putting them down, but they were really doing like incredible work. Like it's fascinating in my research.

I found that people weren't talking about the reality of like motherhood and birth and pregnancy in public in the same way until mommy bloggers started doing it. Like it was really revolutionary. Like they were writing about like postpartum depression and hating being pregnant and like sometimes regretting for a second like becoming a mother and just how difficult it was. and like things that we take for granted now, like the mental load and all of these things. So that was kind of where it started. And then those blogs became able to be monetized.

And so that kind of changed the whole scene because when they first started, no one was making money off of it. But these women were putting like the equivalent of like a full time jobs effort into these blogs. And then they started being able to monetize. And then Instagram came on the scene. That changed everything. YouTube came on the scene.

That changed everything. TikTok. So now it's funny because there's YouTube stars. there's TikTok stars, there's Instagram stars. I'm sure soon we'll have like substack stars. Once the children are old enough to learn how to, right? Or I think to be written about, you know. But I think what's really interesting is some kids have this way of like crossing the boundaries

where they were originally a YouTube star, but now they're really big on Instagram. But often you find that someone is like either YouTube, Instagram or TikTok. But YouTube is kind of like the Holy Grail. So that's kind of known as like if you're a YouTube star, you've really, really made it. And that's because of the way that YouTube pays people. It's the best paying social media platform. Instagram, I would say, is the worst. And TikTok is right there in the middle. Can you imagine a future in which parents are either taking their children's diary entries and transcribing them for substack audiences? I'm sure it's happening. I just got chills. I can't believe that came out of

my brain. I think we're seeing something like Everly LeBrant, who I mentioned earlier, is one of those influencers where her bio says it's run by her parents. But now that she's 13, it's run by her, but all the captions are still very clearly written by Cole and Savannah. And I think that that's not too far off. She lives in my brain rent free. I think because she's the prototypical child influencer in a way. She is. Well, we're not quite at the point where we need to interview our 10-year-olds and upload it to Substack podcasting. But I will say there are some rituals in the cult of kid influencers that you can see a lot when you're scrolling on TikTok. So what are a few that you've noticed other than, you know,

unboxings and halls and get ready with me's? I'm curious what comes to mind for you guys, but I feel like trends are really like the rituals of the kid fluencer, you know, like just whatever trend is happening right now. Right now it's like the 2016 throwbacks and it would actually be funny if they did that because it's like you were a child or an infant in 2016.

But I really see a lot of get ready with me's, which is pretty funny because they're just doing their skin care and they're like eight or nine. And I'm like, I literally didn't even buy moisturizer until I was in grad school. And I know that just makes me sound old. Like, obviously it's a different world now. But I was wondering what rituals you guys see. I think trends are really on point.

I think that in order to be an influencer, whether you're a kid fluencer or an adult influencer, you have to stay on top of the like very, very fast attention span of the internet. And I'd say like week by week, there are different trends that people are doing. But tent polls, day in my life videos. Yes. To end my life of a six-year-old. I mean, we talked about this before you hopped on for Tessa, but like, when you accommodate your burgeoning personality to an algorithm and to trends, it feels like it can rob your

authenticity or your freedom to grow and figure out who you are in a way that feels extremely culty. But again, the cult leader is diffuse because it's like algorithmic and the audience and that just feels like really scary just to think about like the future of. of extremely online kids' lives. Rituals are obviously an important adhesive to keep cults together. And so are us versus them dynamics.

Like, you have to make people on the outside feel like they want to be on the inside. And culty lingo is one way to do that. Could you talk about any culty lingo that kid fluencers use? I mean, I think it's just all the extremely online lingo. We were talking about get ready with me. It's like, they'll just like, oh, it's GRWM.

And it's like, if you're not online, you don't know what that means. Like if I said that to my parents, they would be like, what are you talking about? But I think the interesting thing with kid influencers is they're very savvy and they're very plugged into the way that the internet works in a way that like most people aren't unless you're like a tech reporter. They can talk about CPMs, which means cost per impressions, which is basically like how much you get paid for like a cut of what ad is running on your video on YouTube. But like they can talk about that easily. Oh my God. There's like influencer prodigies probably. Oh yeah, like baby little finance bros.

Yeah. Because they're sponges. Your brain is like growing the fastest rate it'll ever grow. And they're thinking about how they can maximize their optics, which is spooky. Yeah. I do think the vocal affect in itself that get ready with me, girly, and everyone's going to sound the same. And I don't know if that's lingo, but it feels somewhere in those lines to me. Ooh, I feel like ASMR is also a bit of a ritual, like the nails.

Ooh, another ritual I've noticed is every single time I've seen a group of teens set up to film a TikTok dance in a public area, it looks exactly the same and makes me feel exactly the same way. And it's almost like they all look at each other and they just like know that it's time. It's like time to lock in. Yeah, and they find a little corner where they're going to be in the most people's way and they set it up somewhere and they're doing the exact same dance in sync. And all their products are the same too. They have the same mirror.

They have the same ring light. They have the same types of makeup. Their setup is identical. Well, when you put it that way, it's so obviously just like the 21st century bid for belonging, you know, it's like our bids for belonging at that age were a lot quainter. But yeah, I mean, like, of course, if culture is moving in this direction, kids want to be cool. Kids want to be accepted. Kids want to establish themselves as, like, someone that other kids are going to want on their team in the game of life. And that is a beautiful thing.

But the cult of kid fluencing is exploiting that drive. I also think it's like there have been studies where when you ask kids what they want to be, like the majority of them say influencers. And I do think like obviously that's pretty bleak because when we were kids, it was like doctor or astronaut or whatever. But I also think it says a lot about where we are in American society and the way that the American dream has kind of like blown to dust in front of our eyes. And we're just like, oh, the idea for like upward mobility is that you have to play the viral lottery and hit it or you have play like the literal lottery and hit it. So like in a way, I don't think all these kids are just like raging narcissists who just like want to be whatever, whatever, but they see all these generations struggling to make ends meet to pay rent, forget about buying a house, like whatever. And then they see these YouTubers who are like moving into their McMansions and paying for it in cash. And it's like, I don't really blame them. Like I understand that because everything feels economically so fraud. And I don't think they're consciously thinking of it that way, but I think they're thinking, oh, this is how I can make it.

That's such an important reminder and also feels reminiscent of the multi-level marketing industry. There are a select number of people who get that Mary Kay Cadillac at the expense of everyone else. And the expense in this situation is identity, time, maybe money, authenticity, privacy. I really do feel for these kids, though, and I write about this in the book, Amanda, I know you've read it, that I feel a lot more sympathy than I expected for the parents who are at the head of this. And not for all of them. Like there are some things that I look at. I'm like, I can't understand that.

Like that video I was describing to you guys, that I cannot understand. But a lot of times family vloggers start as young moms who got married really young, 18, 19, 20, had a bunch of kids in rapid succession, never got to go to college, never got to have that like self-realization. And then they find themselves in this system that totally locks them out of any economic opportunity. And they're like, it's interesting because mom influencing and family vlog. is the only job I can think of where having a kid is a positive? Because I feel like in every other job in the world, like, as a mother, and I have great work that's really flexible and, like,

I have really understanding bosses and stuff, but it's not helpful to have a baby and work. It's just not. Like, I love my daughter. She's the best thing I've ever done, but like, it doesn't help my career. But, like, if I were a family vlogger or a mom influencer, it would help my career.

And not only that, but I'd get to stay home with her and, like, totally focus and, like, whatever. And you can say, obviously, their attention is splintered. But I feel a lot of sympathy because I talk to people for the book that have this entire chapter on the teen moms of TikTok. And these girls who got pregnant at 15, 16, and what options did they have? Right. So they enter the viral lottery. Some of them win it.

And now they're buying houses and cars and cash. And like I'm sitting here like writing about them. And also I'd imagine getting pregnant that young and getting married that young can be really isolating. So the ability to form community online with people who are either going through something similar who are offering like kind words of encouraging. of encouragement and support can be such a lifeline at the beginning, at least, before the gold rush sets in. I really feel a lot of sympathy for these creators and not all the time. And there are things that cross the line for me and that I can't understand. And I also make a different choice than they do. Like, I have a one and a half year old daughter. Her face has never been online.

Her name has never been online. I don't really write about her. I sometimes write about like my experience of motherhood, but I'm really careful to not include details about her. So even as I understand them, I am making a radically different choice. Yeah. So what differences do you see between the kid influencers of like five, 10 years ago? We've been talking a lot about Tana Mojo and like the rise of the YouTube influencer. And then those raised in family vlogging situations and now those who are making actual short form content themselves. It's interesting because there's kind of this class of kid influencers that has in a way what I see as like the best of both worlds. Like I think of like the Ryan's world kid, right? And like, obviously he's the biggest child influencer in the entire world.

There's no one bigger than him. But also, I know nothing about him. His entire channel is just like a commercial and it's just a capitalistic fever dream. There's never videos of him like having a tantrum. There's never videos of him explaining that he's not doing well in school or talking about his first crush or whatever. So there's these creators that are like kid influencers, but they are very specific and in their lane. And so for my book, I talked to some creators who started. like 10, 15 years ago, and they did like all like skits and stuff. Like they would do like just these really funny things where they would be like each member of our family has to eat food that's only one color for the entire day, right? And it was just kind of like silly and like it wasn't personal and it wasn't private and whatever. And then there's like the family vlogger families, which really traffic in that personal and private and intimate and where the people really feel like they know the kids and they love them and they know them really deeply. Right. And so there's different kinds of like level. even within child influencers.

And I think the interesting thing about today's child influencers is that some of them have been influencers since they were in utero. There's so many accounts of mom influencers and dad influencers starting Instagram accounts for their fetuses who are not yet born and they're racking up hundreds of thousands of followers. And sometimes they're getting sponsorships and they're not even born yet. That reaches like quiverful territory where it's like at this point, are you having kids for content? Yeah.

That's the question, right? Ace family vibes. And it's giving like baptized. by capitalism, you know. You've been vlogged now, so now you exist. You're just like, people are going to start having slime births. Oh, literally. I don't want to be there for that.

Someone's going to be listening to this and say, wait, that's actually not a bad idea. I know. I hate when I do that. Yeah, it's sponsored. Okay, so shifting gears a little bit. What are some of the worst case scenarios you have seen in the Kidfluencer world? Like, I am definitely thinking a lot about Piper Rock Hell, who Amanda mentioned. earlier and whom I honestly don't know very much about. So if you'd like to expand more on her as well.

Yeah. So Piper was one of the preeminent kid influencers of the 2010s. She was this massive YouTube sensation. She lived in Georgia and then she and her mom when she achieved YouTube fame, they moved to L.A. And then they started this almost like a hype house before we called it a hype house. And it was like these other kid influencers joined. And they were called Piper Raquel in the squad. and did all these things together, made millions of dollars, had a great time. And then a few years ago, Piper's mother was sued by a bunch of the former squad members and accused of some really terrible stuff of verbal abuse, sexual abuse, just really terrible stuff. And they ended up settling. And Tiffany Smith, who's Piper's mom, denies all wrongdoing.

And they ended up settling for like $1.85 million. But after that, Piper's YouTube channel was demonetized, which obviously like YouTube has been her entire life. She's made hundreds of thousands of dollars a month since she was a kid. So like, now what, right? So and then a huge Netflix documentary came out about all of this, which was bad influence, the dark side of kid fluencing. And I interviewed Piper for Rolling Stone a month or two after the Netflix documentary came out. And she was like, no one wants anything to do with me. Like no one will work with me. No one will talk to me because she was kind of this like, I don't know. It's interesting because people were not like blaming her for her mother's supposed crimes, which Tiffany denies, but she was kind of caught in the storm. And people were

like, we have to save Piper from Tiffany. And Piper was like, I don't need to be saved. I love my mother. Like, this is not what you guys think it is. And then Piper would make tons of content around, she was 17 at the time about the possibility of joining only fans. And I interviewed her again for Teen Vogue when she turned 18. And she was like, I'm hoping that people take me seriously once I turn 18 that I can move forward kind of on my own and away from like what people think my mom did. And maybe I'll get remonitized on YouTube. Maybe people want to do brand deals with me like blah, blah, because she was really this figure that no one wanted to work with.

And then on January 1st, she joined OnlyFans and she made $2 million in one day. And I talked to her, her Rolling Stone again. And she was basically like, everyone has dragged me through the mud for years. What else am I going to do? She didn't say what are my options, but that's the feeling that I got from her. Would you count that as a worst case scenario in the cult of kid fluencing? I mean, I don't want to judge the choices that she's making, but I do think it's pretty bleak. What advice would you give to parents in situations like these who are raising kids then about

navigating the cult of kid influencers? I don't think there's a way to like have your cake and eat it too. There's this part in my book where I listened to this mom and dad influencer and they were on a podcast and they were talking about how they were dropping their daughter off at preschool and other parents were like, oh my gosh, look, it's so and so, it's so and so because they recognized her from the internet. And they were like, that's so weird to me. Like, why are they like saying that? And I'm like, yeah, that is weird. But also you made her an Instagram account when she was a fetus. So like, what do you expect kind of? Like, I don't think you can have it both ways.

I think a lot about how maybe I'll like want to send my kid to like a hippie school where like all of the parents just agree. Waldorf? Yeah. No, well, okay, so exactly. So then I'm like, okay, Well, if you go to extreme on either end, it ends up being a cult. And then the homeschooling is culty too. I know. So then I'm like, what are we supposed to do? Cry. And on that note, we want to play a game.

Oh, God. Okay, after all this darkness, let's play a game. It's time for a profit or stop it. Reese invented this game. I invented the silly little game. So we are going to describe to you a significant member of this cult without using their name or any identifying details. Your job is to tell us if this is a re-invented. person, double points if you know who they are, or if we made them up.

Okay. Number one, cute little girl, curses like a sailor, and obnoxiously flaunts wealth, usually yelling. Also, little te. Ding, ding, ding. Also, she joined OnlyFans, too. So Piper's not the only child influencer who has turned to OnlyFans. It's a pretty big pipeline because I would even put Danielle Bregoli in that bucket as well. Like, Maan and I were mentioning earlier how Tanna, once she became of age, she started

essentially an OnlyFans agency, where she was a pretty. was like helping her fans to start only fans careers. Stop. I don't like that. No, it's bad. Don't bring other people in. Right. Extra Colty at that point. Okay. Ready for your next one? Yeah. Young boy and his small but very fat dog named Meatball share meatball sandwiches. I don't know this. So I'm going to say it's not real. Correct. Correct. That one was fake. I was a stop it. That's a stop it. That's a stop it. That's a good idea. Yeah, though. Someone should do it. Next one, little boy is obsessed with his local grocery store.

Films himself and his family holding products and eating from the deli. Okay, I feel like this could totally exist, but I don't know it. Is it profit or stop it? Stop it. We're Costco guys. Oh, okay, you said local grocery store. That's not coffee. Oh, I guess local. I meant local like, I just assumed that's where you went. Localizing, there's a Costco in his neighborhood.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. I'm obsessed with them and I like asked them to be interviewed all the time. We'll give you that one. They get five big booms from you. I was thinking like a like Air One or like a Trader Joe's or something. Trader Joe's and Costco are like the same level of local grocery store. Let's be honest.

I can't believe there isn't one of these with Airwond though. I'm sure there's definitely going to be in the future. Yeah. Oh for sure. Baby Bieber in the future. All right. Ready? Yeah.

Little Mormon girl gets ready for service and reviews this week's crumble lineup. I don't think that exists. Stop it. Correct. That is not real, but I'm shocked to find out it's not real. I feel like I've watched this. The crumbull is crumbling, right? Isn't it like it's over?

Oh, really? They're really grasping at straws. They're trying to do other desserts. They're reformulating cookies. They are closing a lot of stores rapidly. They're just struggling. They're not having a good time. I hate the crubble cookies.

I got to be honest. They're not good. They're not good. They're not good at all. They're not missing anything. They are. Last one. Little boy rates and reviews every Shirley Temple he drinks.

His standards are high, but that means you know his reviews are trustworthy. Stop it. This is real. I fucking love this kid. This is Shirley Temple King on TikTok. Go follow him everybody right now. That's literally all the content is, is him trying Shirley Temple's and like giving it a rating. Shirley Temple King is also such an incredibly iconic candle.

I can't even hate that. But I think he deserves the title. Like you're a prince at the most. Once you're out of the kid fluencer range, you hit. 18. Some people start an only fan. Some people graduate to Shirley Temple King. And then at 21, he's going to be like vodka tonic king. Dirty Charlie King. Reese, you are so iconic for taking the tone from like a really dismal place and like bringing the mood up with this game alone. Very impressive. And for Teza, you are iconic for lending your

life to this reporting. If folks want to keep up with you and buy your book, where can they do that? Yes. You can buy like, follow, subscribe wherever you buy your books. literally everywhere. And you can follow me at High Fortessa Everywhere, H-I-F-O-R-T-E-S-A. Incredible. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me. I literally love it so much. Okay, Reese and Amman, out of these three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. What do you think the cult of kid influencers falls into? I feel very strongly that this is a get the fuck out. Get the fuck out. Yeah. the fuck out. There's nothing good about this other than maybe Shirley Temple King.

Shirley Temple King, look at a pass. You are our Shirley Temple King. Everybody else is dead to me. I'm like spiritually drained from talking about this. A little bit. And I feel deeply concerned about the next generation. Me too. Okay, well on that cute, well no, that's our show. Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Colt was created by Amanda Montel and hosted by Amanda Montel, Reese Oliver, and Amon Haririakia. This episode is produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson.

Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical O overthinking, notes on Modest. irrationality and word slut a feminist guide to taking back the English language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds

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