Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Love Island

Episode Date: July 29, 2025

"I GOT A TEXT!!!!" Get ready, culties, because a hot new bombshell has just entered the villa. Grab your neon string bikinis, your mic necklaces, and a whole lot of self tanner and join us at the fire pit because we are finally covering the cult of Love Island. From its devoted followers to its culty 24/7 production, Amanda and Reese are joined by comedian Jo Firestone and Love Island Australia Season 6 winner Em Miguel-Leigh (@dragonsweep) to unpack the chokehold this show has the world in, the rituals, the lingo, the public shaming, and the very real psychological toll it can take on contestants. Why do so many viewers treat the show like a sport? What does it say about our obsession with romance, status, and hotness-as-currency? Tune in as we recouple with one of the most cultishly chaotic franchises in reality TV history. Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles. Thank you to our sponsors! Go to https://Quince.com/slac for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty-five -day returns.  Please consider donating to those affected by ICE activity in the LA Area. Team SLAC are donating to the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights, an LA-based immigrant rights organization providing legal services, policy advocacy, and direct aid to those most impacted. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. So getting episodes like five days a week. We're filmed 24-7. So I think people can get way more invested in us. I do feel like the current picks you up and you're either in this season or you're not in this season. It's not a second screen watch.

There are some watches where you're like, I'm going to play. solitary and watch this in the background. Love Island is not that kind of show. It's like a full-time job. It's a huge commitment. I mean, is that not the cultiest thing you've ever heard? You have to like sacrifice your life as a fan to keep up with the show? A hundred percent. This is Sounds Like a Cult. A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of the book Cultish, available now in paperback. And I'm Reese Oliver, your co-host and Sounds Like a Colt Resident Rhetoric Scholar. Every week on this show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist,

from Horse Girls all the way to Mark Zuckerberg to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? If so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? Live your life, a watch your back, or get the fuck out. After all, cultishness is in the eye of the eye of it. the beholder and not every culty-looking group these days is equally bad. The point of this show is to analyze how culty behaviors show up in everyday life, including places you might not think to look, or maybe places you purposefully look at,

for embarrassingly long periods of time, hunched in front of your television or laptop, muttering about the ill-fated decisions of orange-tinted folk you will never meet. Get packing. Nothing beats a Jetsu Holiday. We are headed on a flight. straight to the most cult-followed reality dating competition show of the summer. Love Island! Oh, no.

We need the theme music. The mediocre British accents that I fear will cover this episode. No, I'm sorry. I'm excited. We're doing the cult of Love Island today. And one of our very own Chelsea, our co-host and resident reality TV producer, Queen, is actually quite the devoted member of Love Island. You can look up her IMDB page to see what we mean specifically.

Chelsea Charles, producer extraordinaire, one of the wizards behind the villa's curtain. But due to NDA reasons Chelsea could not collaborate on this episode with us. But she's definitely here in spirit. I am so intimidated to record this episode, which I think says something about how culty this fandom is because I'm like scared that they'll reject me as a voice. It's also a little scary, especially because as busy gals like ourselves, I know neither of us have been locked in to the 97 million hours of Love Island that have aired this season. I feel obligated to disclaim that I do not judge the people who have devoted their lives to this.

No. And I wish you could just love me as a part of your community. Basically, we kind of have FOMO. Like, we know that we can't give it the love and attention it deserves. but we respect it and it's cult members. Love and attention, it doesn't deserve. Well, the love and attention, it demands rather. Demands.

Because of its rigid airing schedule. Like, I know I don't have what it takes within me to be a devoted member of the Love Island cult. And like, that's just what it is. No. It actually, like, requires more of its members than Scientology. This is how this episode is going to work, y'all. We're going to talk about just sort of top level what Reese and I.

each think is differently culty about Love Island compared to other culty reality TV franchises because the chokehold that the shit has on the globe is unlike anything I've ever seen. Then we're going to have a conversation with writer-comedian and Love Island superfan Joe Firestone. She wrote a whole ass novel based on Love Island called Murder on Sex Island. And we're going to kind of get everybody on the same page in terms of this thesis of exploring Love Island as a cult with her. And then y'all better get your labia waxed and ready for this. Ow! We're going to really get into it when we have a second interview where the tea is hotter than the temperature on the island of Fiji with an...

Miguel Lee of season six of Australia Love Island bribes. I don't know what that was. Exactly. I loved it. M. won her season of Love Island. We only have winners on this show. History is told by the victors. Hearing her talk about her experience on the show was mind-boggling. I was like foaming at the mouth. So first impression, off the best. that Reese, what do you think is especially culty about Love Island as a reality TV cult in a way that is totally differentiated from the shows we've discussed, even in the recent past? The craziest thing about Love Island is that it airs in real time. So instead of like months later being heavily doctored, you are living these people's lives pretty much with them,

which I think is super attractive for people of my age who grew up in the live stream era. Oh my god, I'm such a millennial. I'm just like, oh my God, the premise in the Even Stevens movie. See, I don't even, I've never seen it. But I think Love Island takes advantage of the social media marketing game in the way that few other shows have. They are ranking out reels like nobody's bees wax. And not only do they pump them through their own channels, but they also pump them through the accounts of all of the contestants. So obviously, you're going to want to keep up with all of these people whose number one hobby is staring at their phone, because your number one hobby is staring at your phone. So then you go to stare at these people on your phone,

and then on these people's feeds are all of the same Love Island reels. You literally can't escape them. It is impossible to separate these people's personas from Love Island. I find that very culty. I've also been seeing lots of posts online about Love Island sets. I think this is true of a lot of reality dating shows. So I don't know how Love Island specific this is, but I know that it is true of Love Island, that a lot of their seating vessels are circular to encourage the contestants to sit more closely to one another. Just lots of little tricky ways that they're encouraging people to get closer, not really letting them be alone. It's Love Island, baby. It's not pop by yourself on the beautiful sands of Fiji Island. Yes, there is so much forced intimacy in a way that I find so fucking culty.

And on the fan side, the us versus them divides of who is a fan and a viewer and a consumer of this firehose of Love Island content and who is not, is so extreme here because if you do not jump on the bandwagon as Love Island is starting and watch the episodes as they're coming out and get invested in the personas on screen and are engaging in dialogue with people in your real life about it, et cetera, you're locked out of being able to talk to a certain portion of the population for two months. There's like a whole pillar of literal cultural conversation that you're just like, well, I guess I'll just watch that. Go by. Literally, like, I have friends who I haven't seen in weeks. It's a similar feeling to kind of like when the Olympics come on and you're like,

I don't normally like sports, but I guess I do right now because nobody's talking about anything fucking else. But with Love Island, you can't even really do that because the Olympics you can turn on casually. But with Love Island, no, these are complex storylines and you can't really hop in and out as you please. You've got to lock the fuck in or lock the fuck out. I want to interrogate that word you used complex because I actually think what's going on on screen is like unbelievably, I'm going to be honest. I think it's boring and forgive me. But like I think that what makes Love Island addictive and cultish has everything to do with all the things that aren't actually what's going on on screen. Oh for sure. Unlike the Olympics where you just have to like sit there at home and be a

spectator and eventually you're going to feel satisfied or your eyes are going to glaze over and then leave your house and go do something else. Love Island, at least the USA version that is currently colonizing her society, it encourages participation from the fans. And that has the capability of making anything interesting when you sitting at home have power to redirect storylines and cast villains and heroes, I think it creates the illusion of power, the way that the production creates the illusion of intimacy for the actual contestants. So I think like a cult, Love Island is this escapist, addictive world, voyeuristic world, where on-screen character arcs become kind of like their own biblical allegories of sorts to teach viewers about themselves,

and Love Island is also a vice that everyone on the show and everyone watching can participate in shamelessly together. Like, it is the entertainment cult of our time. And it seems to have created a kind of unique level of devotion and codependence among its stars and viewers. I mean, I always kind of think of Love Island as like the reality dating show because there is no gimmick, which I think is why it is kind of boring, as you say. but I think the audience participation is the gimmick. Wow, that's really, I've never thought about it that way before.

The volume of it, I suppose, was kind of the gimmick. But, you know, I suppose, like, Big Brother does something similar. It doesn't have the same zaz. And I think, I think you've hit on something there. To your point, it's the volume in combination with the participation. Because, like, you could participate in American Idol, which, like, was culty, but in my opinion, in a total live your life level way, at least on the fan side. I don't know. anything about the production side of American Idol. But Love Island is just this, it's so all-consuming and invites you to be part of it. And that is unique in the reality TV space. So Amanda, as our resident Love Island noob here, let's explain what Love Island is. So the premise is, all of these people are on an island. Their goal is to find love and win a large sum of money. by being the final remaining couple.

On Love Island USA, this final sum of money is 100K, split into two envelopes. And on Love Island, UK, it's 50K pounds. There's an equivalent for all of the Love Islands. This is allegedly the goal. This is the stated and explicit goal of the show's producers, or what the show's producers in good faith portray that they believe their contestants' intentions to be. So the person who wins, the final person standing, who is in a couple, because you are the final couple standing, you decide if you split or you steal the money. Most people split it and then

whether or not you actually end up as a couple after. Who's to say most of the time what you're actually winning is social mobility? There's five episodes a week. They only take two days off. In one of those days, they air a different reality show, wherein it is, I think, just different people watching Love Island. And as you are watching in real time, You are also following along on your Love Island app and voting islanders or couples off or on occasionally. So your vote as a participant and as a viewer actually does matter. A lot of the allure and charm of the series is watching a bunch of hot 20-something people with way too much work done, laying around a pool being really bored and streaming up drama,

or having drama dreamt up for them by producers. After matching up at the beginning of a given season, couples are eliminated both by public voting and by other islanders. until one couple gets voted first by the public out of three final couples in the grand finale episode. And throughout the whole time, of course, you got to know there are hot new bombs in bombshells entry the villa every week, trying to turn the head of someone in a loyal couple. A lot to digest there. Yes. So then just a little tiny bit on the Love Island origin story, it began as a British reality show produced by ITV Studios. it actually launched back in the day in 2005 as Celebrity Love Island.

It only ran for two seasons. It honestly kind of flopped. But then ITV rebooted the show with seemingly regular everyday non-celebrity contestants and a new host, this beloved British TV presenter Caroline Flack, who actually, not to get too dark too quickly in this episode, but she met a tragic fate. And there is more than one sort of heartbreaking story of how, certain Love Island alumni struggled after they exited the show and we'll get into that in a bit. But back during this hopeful era for the show, it's rebrand.

The reiteration became a huge hit very quickly, particularly with young viewers, and it spawned the giant franchise that we all know and that some of us love today. There are now so many international versions of Love Island and the spawned. to match the popularity, according to the Guardian via variety, the summer 2019 season of Love Island, raked in 77 million pounds in ad revenue. This shit is profitable. So to help us understand exactly how to define the cult allure of this show, a writer named Danny Lesh Gold, penned a piece on substack titled On the Cult of Love Island and Why I'm a

devoted member. and she explained it like this. Quote, I find so much coziness in the repetition of the same cast of characters laying by the pool discussing the same thing they discussed the day before and will inevitably discuss the next day.

The show is formulaic too. Every few days there will be a bombshell that enters the villa to stir things up and test the couples. The following day, there will be a recoupling in which those left single will be dumped from the island. Thus, the incentive is to be in a couple,

to be getting to know someone, to be apparently falling in love. You can imagine the number of couples that lack chemistry on this basis, and yet millions of Brits, including me, tune in every day to who will continue on the next day. The typical season has 60-something 45-ish-minute episodes. I am so committed that I risk my computer getting a virus and watch it on an illegal website so I can keep up with the show. So as we've been saying, the banality and the predictability in addition to the volume and the

participation lulls the viewer into this world. You may have noticed that some terminology was used in that paragraph by Danny Leshgold. Something that contributes to the cult of Love Island is absolutely the cult verbiage. There are so many specialized terms that catch on like wildfire among the audience and of course are used by the contestants. Terms include, Grafting, meaning putting, this is going to sound so stupid in an American accent. Well, and I think that's part of what's so funny about it is that the lingo is so British because the first version of the show was British. So that's kind of its gimmick to. A hundred percent, because like it's in our DNA to be obsessed with whatever Brits are doing. Oh yeah. And to want to like

baby babble in the style of our mommy England. And so that's essentially what we're doing when we repeat love island terminology terms include graham i'm just going to say it in my own dialect grafting putting in an effort to flirt and try to win someone's affection crack on try to develop a romantic relationship with someone head turned when someone captures your attention more than your current interest ick self-explanatory a sudden repulsion from someone who used to like mugged off being disrespected banter playful conversation closed off when you're exclusive and a bombshell can't turn your head And more. I even think it's so funny that they refer to being on the show as being in the villa. In the villa. It reminds me of how members of Heaven's Gate would refer to the mansion that they all

shared as being in craft, like on the spacecraft that they imagine themselves to be floating off to the Kingdom of Heaven. Well, of course. And there are so many things like that where in the world of Love Island, these phrases are never phrased another way. So all of these really normal human interactions are never not put through the Love Island lens. So like, if you're interested in someone, it's never like, hey, can I talk to you for a second? No, can I pull you for a chat? I am pulling you for a chat. Even if we're American, I'm pulling you for a chat. And that is just even calling it that, you know, that means we're having a Love Island coded romantic interaction, which we're not just talking to each other like people anymore.

Exactly. Ugh, the world building. It's subtle but impactful. Wait, Reese, could you explain the bombshell thing? Because this seems to be a big term and trope that makes this whole Colty Love Island formula so alluring to viewers. So the bombshell is like hot breeding person thrown into the mix midseason to shake things up a bit. Everybody's all coupled up. Everybody looks all happy. And then boom, hot new bomb. Mom shell, inches the villa. Boom. Love Island has honed this, like, really long-lasting trope into reality TV gold, relationship milking gold. The issue with it here is that it motivates, like, really looks-based superficial decisions. I think Love Island creates such a gorgeous utopia where all that really matters is, if you're put in the right spot with the right people,

just pick the one that's best for you, and it'll all work out. Even the production team falls in Love. What? Yes. In Varieties, why life after Love Island isn't always a beach? KJ. Yossman writes, Even Love Island's latest presenter, Laura Whitmore, and its longtime narrator, Ian Sterling, are now coupled up after reportedly meeting at an ITV party several years ago. T. Wow. Speaking of Mr. narrator, I mean, he's the reason that I would stick around and watch, and he's, I think, the reason why a lot of people watch the show. Wait, can you explain this to me more in depth? Yeah, he's just the voice. He's the Welcome back to Love Island. And in between scenes, he sets up, like, this girl's clearly been reading her start. And then it just cuts in and she's standing around like, why did I come in here?

Why am I here? But, you know, he just like out of context, funny jabs, things like that. We all love him. He's like a proxy or he's something that everyone can see themselves in. Exactly. There's that reality show. I forget what it's called, where it's literally just other people watching reality TV. And I feel like that's the vision with Mr. Man. They've just incorporated him into the show. He is the unseen lifeblood of the show. He loves to make fun of the characters. He is generally just a much more active participant than the narrator slash host of these shows usually are. And I think the separation of those two is a really smart thing that Love Island has done. It does contribute to it feeling like a story you're being told. Okay. So enough of our yippity yapping.

We've got to get to these interviews because they're delightful. And both, Fans of the show and outsiders, I think we'll enjoy them in equal measure. Allow us to introduce comedian Joe Firestone for a tell-all analysis of the Colt Island fandom. Get ready to feel slightly attacked, maybe. But first, a little break from the cult followed brands that make this show possible. Hey, everybody. My name is Bob the Drag Queen. And I'm on Exchange. And we are the host of Sibling Rivalry.

this is the podcast where two best friends Gab, Talk, Smack, and have a lot of fun with our black queer selves. Yeah, for sure. You know, we are family, so we talk about everything, honey, from why we don't like hugs to Black Lives Matter, to interracial dating,

to other things, right, Bob? Yes, and it gets messy, and we are not afraid to be wrong. So please, join us over here at Sylvain Library, available anywhere you get your podcast. You can listen and subscribe for free. free hemmy. Joe Firestone, welcome to Sounds Like a Colt. Thank you so much. Wow. Joe, could you actually,

to get the Colty's familiar with your relationship to Love Island because I'm sure that there are some listeners tuning in who are like Love Island stands fully in the cult, know all the lore, very passionate. Could you talk about like your personal relationship to this franchise in particular? Reality TV is fascinating to me because it's like acting is so artificial and then you have to do it as yourself while someone in a Hawaiian shirt tells you to like lick this man. So I feel like it's like there is a lot of suspension of disbelief. Yeah, that's so true. I think I'm drawn to it and repulsed by it. Like I was just watching a little bit today right before we got on and it was like they were just forced to pick a partner.

but then in front of like another partner that wanted them. And then that partner had to smile while they were being rejected. And then they had to be like, I still want to be with you. There were so many feelings that weren't expressed and people were just smiling with vacant eyes. And I was like, oh, God, this is so tough. And then it's like they're really, really passionately making out with each other. And you're like, well, maybe they are present.

It's hard to know and it's upsetting to watch, I would say. It's visceral. Visceral. Oh, yeah. It's not a second screen one. There are some watches where you're like, I'm going to play solitaire and watch this in the background. Love Island is not that kind of show. So how did that fascination lead you to your book?

Well, you know, I thought, what if there was a murder, how good would that be for ratings? The main character is a detective who really loves watching the show and then she goes to investigate and then they tell her she has to be on the show. And so she has to kind of get to know this world and it's very upsetting because she has to have sex. on television, etc. But can I just add that I think that Love Island is kind of like housewives, which is kind of like sports, where it's like you'll mention it and then you have something to talk about with someone else, right?

It's a built-in conversation community. I would say that in the way that it's a cult is that it gives you an instant bond with someone else. That is the positive side of being in a cult. You have a shared understanding. You have a reason to connect. But why do you think Love Island specifically is resonating with American viewers so strongly right now? I would say the vibe they're going for is sexy, fancy free, drinking, eating, swimming, kissing.

It's like a house party. So it's like Dionysian haughty paradise. If I knew you were going to bring out Dionysian, I would have said nothing. Sorry. I can't believe that you sum up that bullshit I just rambled on with Diane Nykine. I got to learn something from that. That was, wow. No, it's just literally my only skill in life is to translate normal conversation into overdramatic sensationalized cult commentary.

And what a skill it is. It's such a skill. It's such a skill. Joe. Which do you think is cultier? The Love Island fandom or the Love Island production? I'm going to go ahead and say the production. Okay, tell us more.

Basically, because they have no time to edit, it's like when you season beef, right, you can either do it before or after. Yeah, I'm with you. Right? So it's like if you're not doing it after, you're doing it before, you know what I mean? So there's a lot of, there's going to be a lot of manipulation. Okay. You're not giving the people like, you know, unseasoned beef. Totally.

And like, bear with me while I workshop some wordplay right now. Okay. You can season. beef before or after or you can create beef on the season before or after. You freak. Are you serious? Someone give this woman. You're going to get a Webby. You are going to get a Webby award for that. That was freak down. Really good. Thank you. All right. Okay. So one culty effect that I think the show is definitely having on its fans stems from the sense of conformist aesthetics and beauty standards portrayed on screen.

So obviously the contestants on the show are these like turbosymmetrical neon bathing suit wearing highly chlorinated. Oh, not bringing chlorine into it. I'm talking chlorine, honey. They're hot, okay? They're fucking pretty. And they're just shamelessly leaning into this type of aesthetic, which does sense. these like jolts of dopamine into the systems of all who watch.

But there can be negative side effects too. A piece in the Independent reported the rates of inquiry into plastic surgery have risen since the show's airing. In 2018, Sisu Aesthetics Clinics has reported a 200% increase in demand for lip fillers since Megan Barton Hansid entered the villa. Do you think it's fair to say that watching Love Island could have an effect on the self-esteem of the viewer? Yeah, I mean, I watch all these shows and then I'm like, how to fix all of it. I am a study in itself where I watch it, I'm like, I got to get that. But it's like, you know, at a certain point you're like, what do I even start with? But I think that happens with regular media too, right? I don't think it's just reality shows that are kind of propagating this kind of surgery focused energy. Totally, totally. But Love Island is going to follow you into your algorithm. Like there's no way that you watch Love Island and it never

shows up on your feed. But if the question is, are every day watching TV any worse for your self-esteem than Instagram? I don't know. Right. No, probably not. But it's like this feedback loop. Like the more love island you watch, the more love island will show up everywhere. Yes. It's all a big machine to take over your life. And that aesthetic pressure extends not only to viewers of the show, but also the contestants during filming. There is something to be said about the humiliation ritual-like quality of making these people perform physical capability challenges for affection while wearing string bikinis and banana boats. Joe, how do you think that contributes to Love Island's culty vibe? I think it kind of requires a uniform of vulnerability at all times, right? I think being that

exposed, even if you're really comfortable with your body for that long, if you feel that you have any flaws, like all of it's going to come to light. Yes. I did hear that while food is provided at all times for the contestants, a lot of women on the show don't actually want to eat because they have to be in swimsuits all the time and they're like afraid of the scrutiny of their bodies that they'll experience from viewers and they're scared of those cruel comments. And a lot of the dangers of Love Island are a result not of anyone laying a finger on anyone or people like explicitly locking a door or whatever,

but these like abstract pressures and online bullying and things cause the contestants to turn that violence inward. And that is just like a type of brutality that I don't want to downplay, I guess. Of course not. And I think it's really important that we don't downplay the psychological effects that being on a show like Love Island in any capacity can have on someone. There have been some more. serious consequences for both islanders and hosts.

For varieties why love after Love Island isn't always a beach. KJ. Yasmin writes, two former islanders as well as the show's former host, Caroline Flack, have died by suicide in the space of three years, leading many to question the responsibility the show has to its contestants as well as its audience, end quote. The inquest of none of these three tragic events denoted Love Island as a contributing factor for their deaths, but the synchronicity of the events nonetheless aroused skepticism and viewers. In light of the events and the public conversation that followed, ITV released a statement indicating they'd adopted more rigorous care standards for contestants on the show,

including offering multiple therapy sessions and financial advice. ITV's independent medical advisor, Dr. Paul Lichten, said the following in 2019. I have reviewed Love Island's duty of care processes from end to end, and they show a degree of diligence that demonstrates the seriousness with which this is taken by the production team. Ooh, yeah, I know there's been a bit more discussion lately demanding that, reality TV contestants just be treated as human with more respect and better compensation because stories like this are disturbingly common. I mean, there's a reason that we keep getting requests to cover different cult-followed reality shows on this podcast and not all those reasons

are lighthearted ones. As we've been saying, you know, like obviously there's a huge difference between a reality show cult and an abusive, exploitative, spiritual based compound. However, we can't underestimate how shows like this can shape society's broader values. How is this as a fucking data point? According to this variety piece that we're going to keep referencing by KJ. Yossman titled Why Life After Love Island Isn't Always a Beach, last year, twice as many people applied for Love Island over 100,000 as Oxford and Cambridge, Britain's top universities. combined. Combined. So, I mean, matriculation and applications for universities are like falling in general due to so many factors. But I can't help but correlate the glamorization of that like

rags to riches instant rise to influencer fame that Love Island has captured in like this really extreme way with people being like, college, ew. The long game, gross. Science? No. Love Island. Love Island. Yes. Joe, would you rather have to be a contestant on an entire season of Love Island or do one semester of college at Oxford? I'm going to go with the semester of college, but yes, I think that if I joined the cast of

Love Island at my age, I think they would take care of me as a senior citizen. They would feed me and make sure that I didn't get confused. And I know that that is not where I want to be for a whole. season. No, thank you. Okay, so maybe we won't find Joe Firestone on a forthcoming season of Love Island our loss. But despite all the false promises and indeed life or death consequences of this show, the cult is having no trouble recruiting. According to Yasman's variety piece, due to Love Island's astounding popularity, other British shows are actually having issues finding applicants. Everyone's just like, no, I'm holding out for Love Island. This is the only thing I want to do. Obviously, the supposed appeal

of being a contestant on the show is to find love, maybe win $100,000 and potentially become an influencer. But that doesn't even seem to fully encapsulate the scope of this cult appeal that people don't even want to be on other reality shows. They just want to be on this one. Contestants are often lured onto the show with dreams of successful business ventures on the other side. And even though the reality is that many contestants often really struggle after the show ends,

people keep applying in droves. Joe, what do you think is that like cult magic that the Love Island production has clearly cultivated that keeps drawing people in? Well, I mean, I feel like it's like the brand recognition, right? Where it's like you could be on suck it or fuck it or whatever the new, you know, the new show is. Like, you don't know if it's going to be a hit, right? And it's like this is like if the end goals to become an influencer, this is the biggest promise. Right? It's like if you want to be cool, you wear a leather jacket. You don't wear a canvas jacket hoping you're going to start the trend of canvas. You go with leather, right? Brand recognition. Oh my God. So in that way, it really is like Oxford. Exactly. So this is how people are recruited to apply for the Oxford of reality television. Potential contestants for Love Island are usually discovered in places like nightclubs and given seemingly not much information.

actually. According to a vanity fair piece titled How Love Island became a TV reality of sex fame and sometimes tragedy by Anna Peel. Quote, season one finalist John Clark, who was approached to join the series by three producers at a club called The Sugar Hut, said, I signed the contract and didn't even read it. Or was it, I signed the contract and I didn't even read it. Sorry, that was maybe a little posh. Again, I don't. Go north. Go north. No show very well. Okay. Okay, let me try again. I signed. the contract and I didn't even read that. That one was the best one yet. That one was really good. Joe, I loved what you said about the uniform of vulnerability.

I think that's definitely a huge aspect of our next cult behavior category voyeurism. Obviously, people are watching other people's most intimate moments and the idea of consent is kind of shaky at best. The production have off-camera showers for ladies and off-camera toilets for the entire cast. However, the cast is prepped beforehand that the rule is if there are two or more people in the bathroom at one time, you will be filmed. If one person is going to the bathroom alone, they are never filmed. But if it's girls' night and you're bringing your best deed to the toilet with you, you better be camera ready, girl. So yeah, I probably wouldn't be eating because if I'm going to the bathroom with my girl, the camera's going to watch me poop.

I don't want that. Do you always poop with a friend? Oh, always. Only in twos. Love you, Sydney. of continuing on. There are cameras absolutely everywhere. Bedrooms and bathrooms, not just common spaces, obviously.

And this is the deal of reality TV, duh. But just to kind of touch on that from a more real perspective, John Clark from season one, when asked if he'd known intercourse he'd had on the show would be aired, said, I did and I didn't. But you got to understand, I was a 25-year-old younger fella put in a villa. Think about it. Sorry, think about it. The perfect way of meeting someone is being taken.

away from the world. I know. It's such a reflection of like how weird the media landscape is right now because, yes, you're signing a contract, you're having this amazing opportunity, but who can ever really be prepared to be filmed fucking and then have millions of people watch it? That's just like so fucking nuts. The next day. Like you're not even like you're incentivized to make all of the.

of these super crazy decisions and everyone looks so hot and is being followed by the camera and you want your air time obviously because you signed up on this thing to get a career as an influencer and then like you're in it and you know it's like john said you know and you don't spooky totally joe thank you so much for being a part of this cult analysis of love island if people want to engage with you where can they keep up with you and do that they can buy the book there you go We're going to link it in our show notes. You better buy it. And make sure to stick around because after the break,

we are going to get into all of the Love Island culty goodness with Love Island Australia winner and Migueline. From the creative team behind the Brutelist and starring Academy Award nominee Amanda Seifred in a career best performance, Searchlight Pictures presents the testament of Anne Lee. With rave reviews from the Venice Film Festival, this bold and magnificent.

genetic musical epic tells the story inspired by a true legend, Anne Lee, founder of the radical religious movement, The Shakers, the Testament of Anne Lee. Exclusive Toronto engagement January 16th in theaters everywhere January 23rd. Yes. Off the bat, could you tell us, as a contestant, what was the cultiest part of your experience in the villa? Oh, good, in the villa. Honestly, I feel like the Australian version of the show is very different in terms of production and everything compared to the US or the UK. It is kind of culty because we're all just like stripped of our phones, our environment, like everything.

I guess Love Island in itself just is a cult. The villa was like our home and we were all just in a cult. So you know what? You're right. I'm so relieved. And how did that feel? Like when you showed up, what were some of your expectations and were they met? Were they violated?

I would say going into it, I have a really good way of just shutting off my emotions, trauma. So I honestly didn't feel much, like not even like excitement. I'm like quite anxious as a human being. So I was like, let's just not feel anything. People would be like, you excited to go in? Are you nervous? blah, blah. I was like, no, I'm here.

I'm existing, but I feel like definitely we were like held in these little tents right before we very first walked into the villa and I like felt like I was going to throw up. So I was feeling all the feelings then. But then I would say like getting in, you just acclimatized so quickly to your environment. And I thrived. I loved it so much. Like I thought I was going to freak out because I'm a control freak. But just having like everything kind of taken care of for. you and all you have to do is just like exist and talk and be yourself. I didn't have to think about like how to feed myself to wash up to do my laundry. Like all these little ADHD things that I hate and really struggle with was just taken away and I loved it. I didn't want to leave.

I mean, this is speaking to the allure of cult's good and bad in the 21st century is just like the relief of surrender. That's definitely something that I feel like is an aspect that's prevalent in a lot of religious cults. I always go back to that scene in Fleabag where she's like, I just want someone to tell me what to do with my life because I never know. She ends that monologue by saying who to love and how to love them. Love Island. Oh my God. Literally flea on Love Island air. That's what else get I need. So which aspect of love island do you find Coltier, the Love Island fandom or the Love Island production? Oh, fandom, 100 billion percent.

Okay, say more. Why? Well, this is what I was talking about earlier with the differences in productions. I feel like Australia, our producers really didn't interfere. They will never make you do or say anything. Of course, they're there to make a show and maybe they will manipulate things like environments or by sending a specific text or sending somebody on a date, but that's only to fast track what they already know is going to happen, like, because they see everything.

There's like not only the producers, but like a room, like a huge room full of people watching us on all these screens. So they know what's going to happen. So yeah, I would say there's manipulation through that part. But I honestly feel like they had our best interests at heart or like mine definitely. But the Love Island fandom is just like a whole other kettle of fish. They are crazy. Love them.

But it was kind of bizarre watching it back. Our season was pre-filmed. So we shot in August and a little bit of September last year. And it didn't come out until the end of October. It finished airing in December. So everything that had kind of gone on in the villa, we were so far removed from it when it was airing. So it was so interesting, like seeing everybody's cult pack mentality watching the show.

Like, they love you one second, then they hate you, then you're in trouble for this. And like, they loved you, did that. And it's just so interesting, like, how invested people get. I watched every episode as soon as it came out, and I remember, like, talking to my friends from the show being like, we don't even care about this, like, at all. Like, if I was, like, beefing with somebody in the show, like, we're, like, texting, they're watching the episode, like, laughing about it, and everybody's in the comments just, like, losing their shit. So, yeah, I think that's quite interesting. Unlike other reality TV shows, you're getting episodes, like, five days a week. And we're filmed 24-7.

So it's just access unlike any other kind of reality shows. So I think people can get way more invested in us. I think that's like the number one reason to be quite honest with like, yeah, just how crazy they can be sometimes or just overly invested. Yeah. I mean, I was like trying to get caught up on a few seasons. And I was intimidated out of it just because of the sheer volume. And I was like, I'm never actually going to understand what a lot.

it's like to be in this fan cult because you kind of have to experience it in real time to be able to get swept into that riptide. A hundred percent. And I can imagine that once you do, like, you don't know how to swim out of it. No, it's a current. You have to use too much island analogy. I do feel like the current picks you up and you're either in this season or you're not in this season.

And the show definitely encourages that because they mark it so heavily with the clips, just all of these out-of-context clips that they are firing. from all angles. So then it's like, okay, well, if I want context for this clip, I have to watch 19 hours of these people's lives who I've never met. Okay. It's a lot. It's like a full-time job. It's a huge commitment. I mean, is that not the coldiest thing you've ever heard? You have to like sacrifice your life as a fan to keep up with the show. A hundred percent. And like for you guys in summer as well, like Love Island USA's like right now. It's like, don't you want to like go outside? like maybe go to like a happy hour or something no you're going to be home no we want to live vicariously

through the summers of people who most of the time have gotten the procedures we can't afford so we just get to witness it wait that is hilarious it's like a classic cult will put your ass on a compound this cult is like making you feel like you're on it's just going to show you one you just going to show you You just get to look at it. Oh, you see? Yes. I'm like, what does the world come do? But I do think there's something like doubly culty and that it still does require the OG cult experience of the islanders

who are beholden to both sides of it, both like the real cult life aspect and then the fandom internet aspect afterwards. Yeah. What a burden. What about it. So speaking of being on both sides of it, how would you generally describe the culture of love? Island. You've talked a little bit about how you kind of thrived there. It seems like a very

immersive world. Describe it a little more. It was pretty tumultuous. Like, you could have the most horrendous morning and then by lunchtime, everybody's like forgotten about it and everybody's like happy as Larry, like getting along so well. I met one of my best friends now, Mimi, on the show. And we literally just like played mermaids in the pool and went for chats and we made up like silly dances and like silly songs because we couldn't like sing commercial music. We were just like making up the most random stuff ever to entertain ourselves. I feel like the production as well, like there's always producers on shift at all times like within the villa. So like they became like really good friends of ours. And I don't know. I feel like the culture was pretty. It was very up

and down. That reminds me of something I witnessed that I'm actually not even sure I'm allowed to talk about because I think I signed an NDA on the way in. But I'll just talk about it. it in vague terms. I visited a set last year that was for a potential show that they were filming in LA that was also like a social experiment but also like an improv exercise and the theme was cult. And everyone participating was like wearing mics like you do it, Love Island. So it was kind of like a reality show. But it was also just I guess a social experiment is what you would say. The rehearsal. And yeah, like the. rehearsal and the line between what was acting and what was real experience was extremely blurred

and how quickly people leaned into cult dynamics and cult behaviors was fascinating to behold because I think there's some part of us that really like wants to let our freak flag fly in a remote location and like wants to act a fool and make connections that like burn fast and bright and then flame out on the side of the road. Like this show seems like a permission structure to like participate in and enjoy being like a fringy freak. And it sounds like some of those experiences for you were really good. But the non-traditional cult aspect is of course how the cult follows you when you are permitted to and indeed have to leave the villa. I mean, you've alluded to like loving the fans fearing the fans ha ha ha have you experienced any like

psychological consequences from the fans reception of you obviously like for us we watched it back because it was pre-recorded as I said so like just I feel like that was a rough six weeks while it was airing because I was along for the ride with the fans like initially my reception was not very good I said a comment about like not cooking my couple estate. I was like, why would I cook for you? And everybody was like, oh my God, she's this like horrible vegan girl and like blah, blah, blah. And then so everybody hated me. And then like three days later, everybody loved me. And then it was just like up and down, up and down, up and down the whole time. So I was on a fucking roller coaster with everybody else

watching the show. But I would say like since leaving, I mean, I already had a high anxiety and like I hate leaving the house most days. And think everybody. everybody's looking at me. So whether they actually are or not now, nothing's really changed, I wouldn't say. Psychologically for me, which is amazing. I have since started therapy. Love. But yeah, it was a wild ride watching the show back. And, like, I was in everything. I was on, like, TikTok comments, Instagram comments. I lived in the Reddit. I was a little Reddit, which was so fucked up. It was a very lot time. I just wanted to know everything. I am also an anxious girlie who has like a mild low grade constant level of paranoia that I'm being surveilled.

And so there's almost like something validating about having that anxiety brought to real life where you like literally actually are having your every behavior surveilled. Yeah. I mean, I would say like most of the time it doesn't really bother me. but sometimes like yesterday I was going for a walk with my boyfriend down at Bondi Beach where we live and this girl, it's not an issue. But I just like got this like whisper in this like, oh my God, that's the, I'm like, get over it. Wait till I'm right. Right. Sometimes it just really annoys me. Just like annoying that like I'm just like being perceived by people that don't actually know me.

But like that part sometimes is annoying. I was in a really bad mood yesterday, you guys. But yeah, but most of the time it's pretty fine and like fan interactions have been like fine. It was a little hairy there for a while because I really like my energy. A lot of the time is based on other people's energy. So if people are coming up to me wanting to say hello but are really anxious and have anxious energy, then I'm just going to be fucking weird. I will make it weird. I also do not know how to exit conversations.

So I'll either just like say nothing and just be like looking at them or I'll like walk away without saying anything. Yeah, so that's been quite interesting. I'm sure those dissociative skills are coming in handy. Oh my God, so helpful. Incredible. I mean, we're kind of dancing around this question already, but trying to apply the structure of a classic cult to Love Island, who in the mix would you say is the leader? Is it the producers?

Is it the fans? What do you think? Oh, no, it's absolutely our gorgeous, gorgeous producer. Love him so much. I think he's a genius and like he knows people so well. And obviously you're never told to do or say anything, but he knew like casting and like when he got to the final cast, like you know who is going to be there till the end, I think. He's done this for so long. He also cast multiple other reality TV shows. So he knows like who is going to go well and who's not going to go down very well. And obviously people are cast for all different reasons. Like some people are going to be cast because they know that everybody's going to hate them. them and that will like drive comments and viral moments and blah blah blah. Like not everybody is cast on the show to make it to the end. So I think he is the ultimate king and cult leader.

But I was obviously there to the very end and ended up winning. So I love him. I love my cult daddy. Love the self-awareness. I love this. Yeah. No, I really, really do. Because like, in a way, Love Island is analogous to the hierarchy of a classical

literally like you called him a genius, daddy at the top. He orchestrates it very literally. Yes. Yes. You won. So like obviously you're going to come away worshipping him. Oh, go bad. But I'm sure there are other.

Yeah. I'm sure there are other cast members who like wouldn't say the same. And then in a way because the fandom is so intense and manipulative in their own way, like in some reality TV cults. the fans almost do play their own cult leader role. But here it sounds like this guy has them wrapped around his finger even if they don't know it. 100%. But I feel like, because it's obviously pre-recorded, he does get to be the cult leader.

But I feel like if it's live, like the USA version, I feel like the public and the fans would very much maybe take that role because then he doesn't have the power. The fans have the power. I'm not sure if you guys, I'm not watching the Love Island USA season. because honestly, like, I know how the sausage is made. I can't enjoy it. But I've seen all the clips and just, like, what is going on to some of the girls at the moment, just, like, mass unfollowings, people losing upwards of 200,000 followers.

And, like, people digging up things from everybody's past. Like, either rightfully so or not, it's just actually crazy how hulty it is. I don't know what you think, Reese, but I think the intensity of what. what's going on in real world high stakes global events is just like dialing up the temperature on how people engage with media like this. Oh, totally. Like it's so low stakes, but in a way that makes people even more insane. Yeah, because it's their escapist content. So it's like, I need to step away from my life and step fully into this. And because I'm stepping fully into this, I need to attach such high stakes to it. And I think a lot of the time people end up

bringing their own like internal biases and their own internal feelings about all the other shit that's happening outside of this into the Love Island world, which I mean, it has such a huge following. That's something that's really crazy to see in the US. You know, things are so divided. Love Island unites us all, though. But everyone is obviously going to interact with it very differently based on all of their different opinions. So it's kind of like a war shock. I feel like people definitely use it that way in terms of like, which of my friends are aligning with which contestants and do I approve your behavior? And I feel like we are seeing a lot of this behavior in fans trying to manage their reactions

to a contestant this season, Sierra's past transgressions that are getting currently unearthed on the internet. That is a whole circus to watch in itself. Yes. So I guess in this conversation about people bringing their own internal biases into the Love Island world, our question to you is, do you see any undue misogyny, racism, or any other forms of bigotry perpetuated by Love Island fans. Like, for example, excessive hatred being directed towards like female contestants of color,

that kind of thing. Absolutely. I also think there's something to, like, a lot of the social dynamics that impact a lot of these contestants in the real world are also impacting them inside this vacuum of the villa. But a lot of the time, the production doesn't want to act like it or acknowledge it. Not necessarily that there's always a good way to do that. But a lot of the time, I feel like they're...

circumstances are neglected and not addressed fully, and that leads to more issues because it is this utopian island fantasy time. So we can't talk about any of that. Yeah. So multiple black contestants have pointed out a lack of diversity on the show, according to several reports. And the show's creator responded to those by saying, we want to be as representative as possible, but we also want them to be attracted to one another. What an insane response. I don't even know. I I don't even, like, what is, how are we supposed to interpret that? Oh, my God. What do you think is the transcendent promise of Love Island, M?

Like, why are contestants so eager to sign up for this nightmare? I mean, let's all be honest. I feel like anybody going on a reality show nowadays, myself included, is for the potential of a platform. Obviously, nothing is ever promised. You have no idea how it's going to go, how you'll be received, anything. you could maybe have a good idea if you know you're like a good person with like good morals that like hopefully it's going to be liked but I feel like the promise is yeah this like platform

and like access to more opportunities and obviously like maybe love maybe you like meet somebody that you like but I definitely don't think that's everybody's number one reason and that's not what the producers tell you either like I can't tell you how many times we were told like we're here to make a show and like if you guys meet somebody and you fall in love that's a bonus but we're here to make a show i guess the title platform island doesn't quite roll off the tongue the same way no i don't even want to say same because like for us in australia like our franchise is so small compared to the uk and the u.s like people that are on the show right now like we saw what happened last year with all of the islanders just blew up insane numbers and that just doesn't happen

at all in Australia. But I think definitely like the promise for the other franchises is like you could call it fame to some level. The definition of that word is murky these days. Oh yeah, absolutely. So the price that you have to pay to spend your summer on this magical villa is often participating in humiliation ritual-like physical challenges, oftentimes for affection, most of the time, whilst bikini-clad. Can you talk a little bit about how you think that contributes to the culty vibe?

Oh, I mean, we're basically, like, being humiliated in front of not only, like, each other, the contestants, and the entire production. And in future, when everybody sees it, when the episode like anybody who's watching. I originally hated doing the challenges because I would say my biggest fear going into Love Island was like knowing that I would have to kiss boys, which is inherently disgusting. Out of context, that's a hilarious statement, but like, it's so true. It's hilarious in context. I'm like, it's actually just so gross. I don't want to do that. So that was what I was most scared about. Oh, and also going to the bathroom because there's cameras everywhere. But yeah, which is also really culty.

Like, why do you need to swell us 24-7? The challenges by basically just being accumulated in front of everybody. It's quite sick and twisted. Some of the challenges are quite crazy. I feel like we could make it, like, fun at least. But then I feel like when I want, well, and also, like, when I think we did a challenge, like, maybe day two, these are strangers. Like, I don't know these people from a bar of soap.

Like, what do you mean? I have to, like, make out with them and, like, grand on that. and like whatever else. But I feel like the further we got into it, like I realized it actually just didn't matter and I had fun with it. But yeah, initially I was scared. Validly so. I mean, that is really disturbing.

And I guess you have to do some like mental gymnastics to like justify it to yourself and like have fun with it. Yes. It was just conditioned to enjoy it. I mean, that is literally one of the like three seas of brainwashing that the religious studies scholar Rebecca Moore describes conversion, conditioning, and coercion. Yeah. Hello. Oh, three.

Check, check, check. This is something I do remember from watching the show is it definitely feels antithetical to the purported purpose of the show, which is for people to find love. When like half of their time is spent in bed with someone that they don't even like because that's who they signed up to do these shouts. with at the beginning of the show and like try to get their best chance out winning. Obviously, we've been talking about how crazy these fans are. And I'm wondering if this is different from an Australian perspective, but have you seen the Love Island fans behave in any really like unhinged or especially obtrusive ways online? I guess so.

I mean, I feel like it's a whole spectrum of displays online from the fans. I think I've just blocked it all out. You have to, to protect your... Yes. Or whatever, like anything resembling peace. Especially because what's crazy about these shows is like, while most people do go on them anticipating a following and anticipating to be interacted with online, they're also people that most of the time have like regular jobs and aren't used to that level of attention. And usually aren't to my knowledge very well trained or like told with how to cope with that

or how to handle that or how to navigate any of that, which just sounds like a 180 that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Yeah. I feel like there's almost on them though, because I feel like you're entering this. We go through like so many rounds of auditioning and the process to like actually be on the show is lengthy and it's like a couple of months. So if you're not like mentally prepared for like what could happen, then that's kind of on you. I went into it like so aware of all the possibilities. I didn't have necessarily any expectations on what I thought because I honestly thought I would get in there and hate everybody, to be quite honest. And all my best friends were like, why the fuck you're going on Love Island? Like, you literally do not like people. You don't date.

You're nothing like any of the like stereotypical contestants. Like you're going to hate yourself. Like, you're going to hate being there. But yeah, I feel like I was very mentally prepared of like what to expect afterwards. Okay, key question that we actually didn't ask, why did you go on Love Island? for fame, babe. No. Okay, right. Platform Island. It's minuscule.

But yeah, definitely for the potential of a platform, I was already like on TikTok. I had like 11,000 followers when I got in. So, yeah, I just wanted to like grow on social media. I was already doing a little bit of acting. I was in like TV commercials, modeling, all of that kind of stuff just kind of lends itself to having a platform or having a platform lends itself to all of that. So yeah, definitely for that. And just for the experience.

Like, I also love reality TV. I loved Love Island as well. And I just thought it would be so fucking interesting and entertaining. And just, like, as a lover of these reality TV shows to go in and just see how it is actually made interest me so much. It's all encompassing. And obviously, like, meeting people. It's just a fucking, you'd be silly to say no, I think, if you're, like, mentally capable. of doing so.

Yeah, that all makes sense. I mean, are reality shows, like, ruined for you now? I would say Love Island for a mini-mo, but then, like, I've been really getting into Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders, the second season. I mean, that's, like, basically a documentary. I know. Oh, yeah, no. Wait, that's actually so true.

That makes me sound so much smaller. But also, like, I'm such a Summerhouse Stan. I don't know if you guys know that Summer House. with like Paige de Sorbo, Amanda Bautola, Sierra. I know it. I haven't seen it. So good. But yeah, not all of them have been ruined.

That's beautiful. I know. But this is what's interesting. It's like there are no pretenses. On The Bachelor, if you like fully admit that you went on for a platform, you would be crucified. Tard and feathered. But yeah.

I love how we both named like antiquated punishments. I'm like, you old. We weren't like canceled. You went to heart feathered it and I went like crucify. Put in the stocks. Yeah. But you're just like, no, like the producer said we were there to make a show. We were there to make a show.

I was trying to get more TikTok followers, period point blank. But then you go on and you actually do have a life experience that led you to the point where you're saying that the producer was a genius. And so you'll probably be impacted. by your Love Island experience in a real way for the rest of your life. So my question is, what has your cult deprogramming been like? Or do you still feel like the cult of love island is in you? Like, you can take the girl off the island, but you can't take the island out of the girl. Oh, you definitely cannot take the island out of the girl.

No, going to lie. If I didn't have a boyfriend right now, like, I would be back on an island this summer, potentially. No, I feel like just like nothing else. so much fun. Like, I just had so much fun. I loved every aspect of it. And yeah, I would definitely do it again. I'm like gagging for it. I'm kind of jealous of everybody like in the villa right now. I'm like, fly me to Fiji. There's nothing to make you want to do it all over again, like winning. Yeah, no, I'll do that. But I'm also hyper aware that like, realistically, not going to happen

ever again. If I would ever go on another season, like nothing's guaranteed. Like I could have a very different experience, which I think is important to know. M, you are a treasure. Thank you so much for coming on. Sounds like a cult. If folks would like to continue helping you build that platform, where can they follow you? Oh, God. You can find me at Dragon Sweep on everything. It's like Dragon and then Swap like a broom.

Or not, just let me exist. Yeah, she's like, I've seen enough. Incredible. All right, Reese, it's time for our verdict. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which category do you think the cult of Love Island falls into? I don't know. I mean, it feels really wrong to rate it anything harsher than a live your life because it is ultimately a TV show.

And I think that the worst danger is that you won't have a social life after you participate too hard in the Love Island cult. So, yeah, live your life as long as you keep your self. social life. Yeah, I think it's a watcherback. Just because of the life or death consequences that have been brought to light, I mean, that is chilling and can't be discounted, I think. And also because the show just like brings out the worst in so many fans. It does. And in the volume at which it comes out, I think if you're going to watch it and certainly if you're going to enter the villa, you've got to watch your back.

Watch with caution. Watch with blue light filters, maybe. Honestly, protect your eyes. That's the real damage being done here is your retinas. Let's talk about the real issues, people. Yeah, you're going to have to follow the like 2020 rule where like every 20 minutes you have to go outside and look at something 20 feet away.

I try to do that. I try. Well, that is our show. Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for new. cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culties. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Podcabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our

theme music is by Casey Cold. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show. a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Overthinking, notes on modern irrationality, and words slut, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.