Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of MAHA

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

What do seed oils, vaccine skepticism, beef tallow, and a guy with a dead bear in Central Park have in common? Welcome to the Cult of MAHA. This week, Amanda, Reese, Chelsea, and Iman dive headfirst into the increasingly influential world of Make America Healthy Again, the wellness-meets-politics movement promising cleaner food, healthier kids, and freedom from Big Pharma. But where does legitimate criticism of America's healthcare system end and pseudoscience begin? And how did a movement that started with organic groceries and food dyes end up helping measles make a comeback? Joining us is physician, internet educator, and professional misinformation debunker Doctor Mike (@doctor.mike) to help us separate fact from fiction, unpack RFK Jr.'s growing influence, and examine why so many otherwise smart, well-meaning people are getting pulled into the MAHA rabbit hole. Put down the raw milk, step away from the parasite cleanse, and join us as we ask: Is MAHA making America healthy "again"... or just making conspiracy theories easier to swallow? Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles, @imanharirikia.  To pre-order Iman's new book, Once in a Timeline, click here! Thank you to our sponsors! Tear. Pour. Live More. Go to https://LIQUIDIV.COM and get 20% off your first purchase with code CULT at checkout. Head to https://acorns.com/cult or download the Acorns app to get started. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, Colties. Iman here. My new book, once in a timeline, is coming out wherever books are sold on October 13th. This is a Groundhawks Day novel about an influencer who gets stuck in the literal algorithm and is forced to live out her perfect day in the life over and over again in an endless, infinite time loop. Hello, Colty. This story is both a chaotic, romantic roller coaster ride and an exploration of the digital rabbit holes

we find ourselves unable to click away from. And I would be so unbelievably honored if you'd consider pre-ordering a copy from the link in our show notes. Pre-ordering actually makes a massive difference in the success of a book, so your support would mean the absolute world to me and more. Anyway, I am so freaking proud of this book.

I am so excited to share it with you. It's available for pre-order now. Link in our show notes. Once in a timeline, love you, mean it. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

Anytime you criticize something that he says, people believe that he is the only one capable of telling the truth. that is not the case in any reality, but they simplify it into something that creates an us versus them mentality. And when you start creating this us versus them mentality, instead of creating solutions and thinking about it in a nuanced way, you have a recipe for disaster. Like, who are they? Us versus them. Can they stand up? Please. No one loves they them pronouns more than a conspiracy theorist. This is Sounds Like a cult, a show about the modern day Colts we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of books including cultish, now out in paperback.

I'm Reese Oliver. Sounds like the Colts resident rhetoric scholar. I'm Chelsea Charles. An unscripted TV producer and a lifelong student of pop culture sociology. And I'm Iman Hurry Kea, author of female fantasy, the most famous girl in the world, and a hundred other girls. Every week on the show, we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cults in culture. From Christian nationalism to Renaissance fairs, to try to try. Try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into?

Is it a live your life? And watch your back or a get the fuck out. Because in this increasingly terrifying modern landscape, cultish behavior and cult-like tactics can be used in ways that range from harmless to deeply dangerous. It can be as benign as calling the top player in chess a grandmaster, or as horrific as drinking milk straight from the utter in the name of purity. Wait, I'm so sorry. I have to interrupt for a second. Yesterday, I tried my friend's breast milk.

Oh, how was it? Wait, Amanda, I brought this up two days ago. I asked a room full of men if they had ever tried breast milk. Like, I went through a... And? Three, yes, five, no. Why were you in a room with so many men? I'm sorry.

Thank you so much for asking. I was out of wedding. Oh, oh. You were like, cut her out. No, honestly. The question stands, but it tasted like the milk at the bottom of a bowl of honeynut Cheerios. Really? Ooh.

Yum. I can see that. Wait, very important question. Ice or no ice? I considered icing it, but then I was like, no, I want to try it the way from the tea. mess. Okay. From the teeth. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No, I didn't like suckle my friends utter as a man. But she did trickle into the Cortado Cup. And yeah, and I took a shot. And, you know, dude. Great April Fool's prank unlocked. Bring someone a matcha and then afterwards tell them that you put your breast milk in it.

See how they react. Aw, yeah, see how they react. And honestly, yeah, it's a Roershack test for friendship. The point is, today we're covering the cult of Maha. Maha stands for Make America Healthy again. It is a movement promoting seemingly good causes like children's health, cleaner food, and personal medical freedom, all the while insidiously brushing aside science,

putting public health at risk, and demonizing experts, including the tall drink of water. I actually don't know how tall Dr. Mike is. Dr. Mike is our guest today, and holy shit, who would ever demonize him? If you've ever seen an absolute snack of a man in medical attire on your Instagram feed, spitting bars about misinformation and what we can do about it, then you have probably drooled over this man. Dr. Mike is a leading voice in digital health communication and the most followed doctor on social

media. Speaking of hot Dr. Mike, you know who I heard is hot? Who? RFCK. Wrong. No. It's a thing to prove you wrong. I'm opening a private tab. I can't. Ew. One of my favorite things to talk about with people is RFK's sex addiction and how he chronically cheats on his wives. His ex-wife ended her life after finding a diary in which he detailed cheating on her with over 30 women. RFK then came out and said, said, I'm a sex addict. That's why I did it. And we don't need to include this, but the craziest thing, they buried her body with her family. And then the Kennedy estate, like, made a huge fuss about it. And I think they fact check me, they had to exhum her body and move it into the Kennedy plot so

that she could be buried with the rest of the Kennedy family. After RFK, again, cheated on her with upwards of 30 women. As testified in his private. it journals and they wouldn't let her rest with her own family members. Like, this shit is crazy. Yeah, that sounds like someone who's had a parasite eat part of his brain. Hey, the frontal lobes specifically. What's up with all these men cheating and keeping diaries? I hear that's what Clay Thompson did as well. I'm like, what's happening? It's cult leader behavior. It is egotomaniacal, unhinged cult leader behavior. But yeah, no, he's not hot. He's brainworm eaten. And he clearly looks like someone who doesn't believe in

on screen. Look at his skin. I don't know. Listen, I think he's deplorable. And I've also seen this series of videos about him being like a sleep paralysis demon. And I get a huge kick out of those. But I'm just going to call a spade a spade. He may be a butterhead, okay?

Back in my day, you know, that's what we called him. Hot bod, brainless, not cute in the face. I love that we're immediately like hymnbofying RFK Jr. But oddly, his appearance is among the. the least of his offenses. So in order to wrap our heads around the very complex cult of MAGA, which we're going to do our very best to represent in just an hour-long episode, its structure, its allure, recruitment tactics, and problematic ideologies, it probably does make sense to begin with a proper analysis of the group's alleged leader, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

Robert Francis Kennedy Jr. is an American politician, environmental lawyer. He's a conspiracy theorist and he's an anti-vaccine activist, currently serving as the 26th United States Secretary of Health and Human Services, a position he has held since 2025. He is also obviously a member of the Kennedy family, a son of Robert F. Kennedy and a nephew of U.S. President, John Mc Kennedy. Chelsea, could you maybe walk us through some of the most unsupported and cult leadery health claims that Robert F. Kennedy the second has made? Of course, gladly. One of the claims was that COVID was engineered to spare Jews and Chinese people. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. He compared anti-COVID public health measures to the Holocaust.

He also said that the CIA have been planning for years to use a pandemic to end democracy and impose totalitarian control on the entire world. Right. Human-made chemicals in the environment could be making children gay. That one is actually my favorite one. If there are gay chemicals, I want to know what they are. So you can inhale them. He also said that usage of antidepressants has,

led to school shootings. He said that fluoride in drinking water causes arthritis, bone fractures, bone cancer, IQ loss, neurodevelopmental disorders, and thyroid disease. That one has really reached the people. Oh yeah, we're going to get into it later, honey. He also said that they are the man, putting 5G high-speed broadband service to harvest our data and control our behavior. Ooh, this is a great little syntactic thing to focus on whenever sort of like, science or feelings over facts type cult figures disseminate their opinions, they often use this general phrasing of, they say, which is conspiratorial. Like, who are they? Who they? Us versus them. Can they stand up? Please. No one loves they them pronouns more than a conspiracy

theorist. Literally. Okay. So more into RFK Jr's ridiculous claims. He also said that autistic children will never pay taxes. They'll never hold a job. They'll never play baseball. They'll never write a poem. They'll never go out on a date. Many of them will never use a toilet unassisted. I love the baseball addition to that. They'll never play baseball. You could just pull words together in any order you want. Okay, exactly. Nexium survivors, one of whom we've interviewed on this very show in our cult of self-help episode, Sarah Edmondson, often referenced Keith Reneery's word salad. Like, if you state anything confidently enough, combining legitimate claims with utter nonsense, with words that sound

scientific, with words that sound mystical. Discerning people give up because they don't know where to begin with you. And people who are already intrigued or full blown in will just also kind of tune you out, but listen to the confidence of the delivery and be like, yeah, sounds good. Yeah. It's called Parisia. It's a rhetorical, like, ability to speak super candidly, but it doesn't doesn't even necessarily matter the content or the truth of what you're saying. Parisia? Yeah. Ooh, the ancient Greek concept of frankness.

Risky act of speaking truth to power or speaking filterless garbage to power. But at a certain point, the two notions get scrambled. Colloquially referred to as word vomit. Yes. Salad is like too healthy. Yeah. Yeah, guys, it's the cult of maha. We're only having word smoothies and word salad.

for its foodies. Okay, so this claim is the most famous one, that he contracted a parasite which got into his brain and ate a portion of it and then died. Most believable RFK claim. Yeah, absolutely. A lot of the other claims had to do with his extramarital affairs. Like Iman mentioned at the top of this episode,

he kept a diary that kind of documented all of his affairs he had while married to his second wife. He also was reportedly sexting a reporter while married to his third wife. He allegedly was sexually assaulting his babysitter. And he has discussed at nauseam his past heroin usage. I think I maybe have some insight now into like the diary keeping that all of these assailants do despite the obvious risk of getting caught. Because the reason why that docu-series, The Vow about Nexium, the HBO docu-series,

had so much footage was because Keith Ranieri and his disciples were super into heavily documenting like every action of nexium, every little humdrum daily activity in addition to the bigger events. I think because like megalomaniacal cultish leader types want a record of their actions. I mean, part of me thinks he probably wanted his diary to be found or he wanted to admire it like a like Dexter admiring the bloodslash. full of his victim's blood. I was literally going to say, it reminds me of how serial killers will often, like, leave a signature so that they can get recognized for their work by those in the know so that there's a way to

connect all their crimes to one another. For sure. And clearly, R.FK Jr. has not been held accountable at all for any of these actions. So, like, yeah, it really worked out the way he probably wanted. Yeah. I think it's really good, like, if I put all my cards in the table, then nobody can call me out for anything because I've said it first but in my own way. So get control of the narrative that way.

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is the alienware experience distilled into one iconic machine. Visit alienware.com. Visit alienware.com slash Alienware 15 today. If you have nothing nice to say, you can sit with us. I'm Suzanne Lambert, comedian, mean girl, and internet menace, and this is the Mean But True podcast. Every week, a special guest in a night will talk, pop culture, current events, romance, whatever we feel like. I don't know. Are you a cop?

We'll be keeping it funny, playful, and petty, per usual. You cringe at the site of people posting QR codes to fund their own bachelette parties. you need to know how to respond to that co-worker with a bad haircut who's always making digs or just need to get something off your chest. Make sure to subscribe to Mean But True wherever you listen to podcasts, unless, of course, you hate fun, in which case, don't. I'm Suzanne Lambert, and this is mean, but true. Speaking of making history, let's get into a little bit of the history of the cult of Maha.

So Maha, again short for Make America Healthy Again, is a Trump-era health movement now formally being implemented through HHS, the Health and Human Services, under RFK Jr., who frames it as a plan to overhaul America's food, health, and scientific systems in response to chronic disease. So its official priorities, according to the HHS website, include removing petroleum-based food guys, changing dietary guidelines, reforming SNAP, investigating autism, and restoring trust in vaccine safety. And I want to really emphasize the quotation marks around restoring trust in vaccine safety. In vaccine safety. The euphemisms are euphemisming. But the movement's public-facing leaders, including RFK Jr., helped popularize Maha's critique of processed food, big pharma, and chronic illness policy. But at its most basic, Maha claims America's sick because corrupt institutions, pharmaceutical companies, food corporations, and federal agencies have hidden or ignored the quote unquote root causes of disease.

When I hear this, I'm just reminded of how slippery of a slope Maha can be because every once in a blue moon, a good point is made. There are a lot of unregulated chemicals in American food. And I think we can all agree that we do want to make the country healthy again. But by agreeing. Or but again. Yeah. I don't know why I even said again. I don't, when was it healthy?

We want to make, we want to. Oh, my God. See, I just did it. We want America to be healthy. We want Americans to be healthy. But by agreeing with that, what, one statement, overarching claim, you then descend into madness, like genuine madness. I literally just proved it myself. Yeah. Yeah. You maddened fool. Yeah. I can't believe it. I know. Next I'm going to be throwing away all of my store-bought milk. I just can't believe it. I'm literally just thinking, like, One day you're like, wow, I really wish there weren't all these unregulated preservatives used to spray food before it reaches the grocery store.

And the next day you're like, wow, they're putting autism in the water supply. And that's really the missing pieces. It's what happens when you try to investigate these problems without looking at any of the social or economic inequity that is causing them. So like when you're not actually looking at food deserts, when you're not actually looking at issues like pollution and the ways in which those actually disproportionately affect the people of our country. And it feels like the worst effects of these issues, like the malnutrition, the not being able to afford food. Like I know that none of that concerns RFK or is what he cares about. Like he cares about it from a much more crunchy, convenient angle. And because of that, it's a much easier slope to all of this other bullshit because it's just like a catchall for all of his weird opinions. Yes, Reese, I was just going to say it reminds me of the episodes we did on Arawon and I believe the cult of Pilates is that what we're actually seeing is that Mahath started from a good place, but it's like this wellness romancization and hyper consumerism. And it's like everybody has this idea that they want something cleaner, but it quickly becomes just aesthetic. And that's not what it should be about. Yeah, I'm reminded a lot of homesteading. where it's a lot more about a very idyllic lifestyle, but not actually about sustaining the communal ties or trying to achieve a kind of something like Utopia, wherein having those things available to you inherently would be possible. Before we move on, can I ask a brave question?

What is beef tallow? It's just fat, I think. Is it just fat? How did it receive the rebrand of the century? Because it's like collagen. Yeah, it's rendered fat. Oh, my God. Just say that.

Because it's an occlusive. Any fat can be an occlusive. So yeah. I think the Maha thing is like, first of all, health information is really intimidating. Who wants to read a peer reviewed study, really? That means the work of science communicators is so, so important. But measured science communicators often struggle to stand out against the like cult fearmongering and rah-rah attitudes of Maha influencers, RFK Jr. types. And a broken clock is right twice a day. A broken clock is right twice today. So they do have surface level messaging that makes a lot of sense. And here's the problem is that like scientists who know what's going on, like my mom and I talk about this all the time. My mom who's a cancer cell biologist, she acknowledges that

this movement has certain ideas that most of us can get on board with. But they're not going to say the same thing about pro-science people. So like what are we supposed to do? Yeah. And there's such a like elitist exclusivity to the idea. that in order to be living the right way, you need to only eat organic or only eat things that are sourced a specific ethical way. It's so expensive. It's not something that people who are often affected by poverty-based health issues can even afford to buy into. So ultimately, it's not even helping the people that are impacted the most by systemic imbalance when it comes to health in this country.

And what you're talking about, Iman, is some of the cultiest aspects of the Maha movement. It grabs people through legitimate frustrations. The American health care system is expensive, rush, confusing, and often dismissive, especially towards women, people of color, disabled people, chronically ill people, and parents desperate for answers. It borrows older, crunchy ideas from the left, like organic food as medicine and anti-corporate wellness and then fuses them with right-wing distrust of government, vaccines, and public health agencies and science.

It literally is where the horseshoe closes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right there. Some of Maha's health claims are that seed oils are toxic and causing chronic disease. Toxins in food, like food dyes and additives are primary drivers for illness. Vaccines are dangerous, unnecessary, or linked to autism. chemo is more harmful than cancer itself. Supplements and detoxing can replace medical treatment.

Raw milk, baby, that raw milk. Do you all know? I saw it in sprouts. I'm pretty sure I saw a bottle of raw milk being sold. And I love sprouts, but I was like, listen. Yeah, it's kind of everywhere now. And something else I'm seeing that's funny. I saw a reel the other day.

I couldn't tell if it was a theoretical or not. But it was like, life hack, boil your raw milk. Now! What is that supposed to hack? Not pasteurizing it. That just makes it regular milk. Life hack, oat oatmeal. Life hack.

Let's repackage something that already exists and sell it to people. Let's make the Doritos ourselves all tradelife. Okay. So as one KFF health news piece put it, quote, the Maha movement capitalizes on many of the non-conventional health concepts that have been darlings of the left. But in an environment of polarized topics, the growing prominence of leadership. who challenge what they call the cult of science could lead to more public health confusion and division.

And this is what entry to this cult looks like and how this cult prays on the vulnerable, a scared patient with a new diagnosis or a mom who's worried about her autistic child navigating and understaffed, overwhelmed health care system that is draining their life savings. And it's like, no wonder people turn to alternative sources much in the way that cults offer alternative lifestyles for people who are looking to ultimately better themselves. Yeah, and this is one of the reasons why, like, we can poke fun of and laugh at, I mean, I guess we've mostly just poked fun of and laughed at RFK Jr., but like we can roast followers of this movement, but like who can really fault people too too much? I'm saying that,

but I really struggle. And yet, I don't necessarily blame people who are seeking answers for some of their most urgent and pressing problems that are rooted in very real things. I completely agree. I'm someone who struggles with chronic illness and autoimmune disease. I have gastroparacis and eocinophilic asophagitis, which are two like digestive illnesses that are truly like hell on earth. And when I am at my most sick, I would do anything anyone told me just to feel relief for a few hours. And that includes cutting out seed oil. That includes avoiding food groups that I previously knew to be entirely consumable and not the cause of my illness. I think like because holistic medicine really can be so life-changing for people, it can be really hard to realize when you're towing the line and when you finally cross it.

Totally. Yeah. And to like bring it back to cult analysis, there are so many red flags already. There's a serious health upheaval happening in our culture right now, which, like creates the conditions for alternative solutions to emerge. Most of the people who are joining this movement in the most extreme way are people of some privilege. And that's like this myth about cult followers is that they're like desperate at the end of their rope would follow anyone into the woods. But no, like cults want people who have money and time and influence to spare.

And it's really hard as a member of this movement to say like, oh, I agree with this. I agree with this, but I don't so much agree with this, you kind of have to buy into the whole lot in order to be accepted, which I would argue that like feeling accepted when you're going through something tough, like raising a sick child or dealing with health issues yourself, feeling a sense of belonging probably feels just as good as finding medical solutions. Amanda, I want to kind of contextualize, because there's been a lot of legislation that has been introduced recently on a national level and locally. And I just want to contextualize for our listeners what that looks like. Because my best friend is an environmental lawyer and we talk about all

the time the things happening in Louisiana specifically. But there has been a bill recently that was passed called L.A. Maha, which is a brand specifically for Louisiana. And it's aimed to improve public health focused on the things that we were talking about, like the food additives and clean living standards. And what we keep mentioning is the nuance that a lot of these bills miss because Reese, just as you said, food access and these low income and rural communities. So like a lot of these people in South Louisiana are living in food deserts. And so you have this elitist standard if you think people should be, I guess, subscribing to and they don't even have the access. And the fact that what's healthy is being defined culturally and scientifically. So, for

for a long time, like Southern black communities and indigenous groups like the Homa and the Lombie were taught that soul food was unhealthy and it was part of the problem when mainly that diet is comprised of beans and greens and grains. And so then you have to ask the question. It's not just about access, but who is deeming what these people are eating as unhealthy? So it comes from a very, very, very privileged place and it's gross because, I mean, these bills have just been recently introduced, but by I think June is when the deciding factor happens if this is actually going to come into fruition. Oh my God. Thank you for contextualizing that. And also this is why I think it's so important to talk about movements like this on this podcast because like it's not just a group of

worshippers in robes on a compound. This is showing up everywhere, including places you might not think to look. It's showing up in legislation. It's showing up in mom groups. It's showing up in algorithms, even among people who are not right-wing or whatever. And so it's just important to notice the signs and notice where they come from, what's motivating them. So maybe we should get into talking about some of the kind of real-world culty consequences and horror stories that have come with this cult. So the most obvious horror story is vaccines. I know a maha follower who told me when I told him that I was getting the COVID vaccine that if I got leukemia, from it, he would laugh. So that's how that's going. We've done a whole episode on anti-boxers earlier this year that

you can go and listen to. But according to the CDC, MMR vaccination rates among kindergarters have fallen to about 92.5%, which is below the 95% threshold, which is needed to prevent outbreaks. And that decline has coincided with a sharp rise in measles cases who'd a fucking thunk, including more than 2,200 cases in 2025, the highest levels seen in decades. This, after, after the U.S. declared measles completely eliminated in 2000. So, yeah, we're making America something again. I don't think it's fucking healthy. We're making America measly again.

Literally making America measly mumpy, not a canned food. America mumpy is outrageous. Mammah. Reuters reported that a 2025 through 2026, that's a long time. South Carolina outbreak alone sickened 997 people, 932 of them unvaccinated, quarantine 8774 students and cost a state an estimated 2.1 million. Wow.

Another horror story is what happens when, quote, unquote, doing your own research leads to rejecting modern science that has been proven. A National Cancer Institute summarized that breast and colorectal cancer patients using alternative therapy as initial treatment were nearly five times as likely to die after a median of five years. Real quick, colorectal cancers are on the rise among people under 35. and are often diagnosed at a late stage because, like, doctors don't take us seriously. We're too young. Da-da-da.

Like, we don't know how to recognize symptoms, but also, like, we're not getting colonoscopies. So I'm trying to get a colonoscopy this year. Girls, Jen. Wait, oh, my God. Get ready with me to get a colonoscopy. That so sounds like a colonoscopy. And then there's policy. According to KFF, the Trump administration's 2026 budget proposal includes major cuts

to core public health programs like the CDC and the NIH, all proposing $20.6 billion for a new Maha-linked agency called the Administration for Healthy America. Word salad. Reporting from CBS News says this new agency would take over and reduce funding for existing programs that track disease and manage chronic illness. So while the branding may be about making America healthier, the concern is really that the systems that are actually keeping people healthy are being scaled back at the same time. Well, speaking of branding, let's talk a little bit about influencers. Influencers are a major engine of the Maha ecosystem, and they're often where the movement becomes persuasive and profitable. Many creators package health advice alongside affiliate links,

like and subscribe, supplement lines, coaching programs, and paid communities, which then turns fear into a pretty great revenue stream. The more alarming the claim, the more engagement it drives, and the more products can be sold to fix the problem. Yeah, that sounds like the America I live in. What's the craziest mafra-related social media posts each of us have seen as of late? Oh, I mean, I have not so much had Maha rhetoric show up online for me as I have had it show up in real life. For example, some family members of mine our neighbors with an anti-vax, Trump-supporting evangelical lady, who when you first meet her looks kind of like a hippie, like she loves watercolor and wind chimes. But it's so confusing

because she's like hippie maggot. That's maha. My culture is not your costume. Okay. Okay. Stop dressing like a slutty hippie if you're not going to walk the walk. Stop dressing like you love people and like you want world peace. Yeah, I mean, I think that Maha has really reached the people of Brooklyn in a very chic granola way. It's more so being peddled as make sure that you are downloading app to make sure that nothing you eat from chain restaurants has any seed oils in it. I don't know.

I also think like other microways it shows up. I'm sure we all notice like the big influx of emphasis on protein. over the past year. It's now becoming fiber. I don't know if anyone noticed. And it's tricky because you know, we're just talking about the rise in different types of rectal cancers. Fiber consumption is really important for young people. But again, it's that tricky line. Like when does it transcend from we should all just be mindful of naturally consuming fiber in our diets to we need to buy specialized products? Right. Chelsea, what's one of the wackiest maha claims that you've experienced in the wild. Okay, so here's the thing. I actually teetered a little bit two years ago

when I was still living in L.A. I had a primary care physician and a homeopathic primary care physician. This person, which I loved her, she was trying to get me off of my adderol and transitioned me into another one called synapsin. It's a peptide. So I got pulled into the world of peptides. And so now all I see on my timeline, which you all know, it's under the Maha movement, are the peptides, these like compounded chemicals where they're still not FDA regulated. And it's just a whole bunch of people randomly going to these places, getting these chemicals and injecting themselves with it. So it's a crazy world. And I think the GLP1 was a slippery slope into that. That's what I was going to say. I actually don't have an example, but I think the GLP1 is a big component of the whole protein and fiber push of it all because nobody's eating enough. So everybody needs the protein and the fiber. And it really just emphasizes to me how much the priorities of this movement are about looking like a certain version of health or what this movement thinks healthy looks like. It's not actually about creating a world where people are healthier or feel more supported. And I think that that's the again portion of it is I want to go back to a time when people

felt more pressured to look the way I want them to look. And I think that that's all it is, really. Oh, God. JLP1, speaking of things that people are putting in their bodies that have not been tested on the long-term side effects of perpetual infinite use, GLP-1s on people that don't have diabetes or PCOS, that's one of the biggest risks. I really want to cover GLP-1s in 2027. We're going to have to be so delicate about it. So, so delicate. But, you know, we are in our Take No Prisoners era. It sounds like a cult. Gone are the weeks when it was back-to-back, Trader Joe's and whatever the fuck. Now we're out here doing Trump ladies and Manosphere. Okay. So I think it is high time that we transition into our interview with the one, the only, Dr. Mike. We want to know how does a movement that starts with

fair questions about food, chronic illness and a broken health care system? end up ushering measles back into our lives. Mama, make America monthly again to help us sort the legitimate concerns from the extremely dangerous and culty conclusions. We are joined by Dr. Mike, a practicing physician and one of the internet's most recognizable voices on medical misinformation. Avengers Doomsday is going to be the biggest Marvel movie since Endgame, and we are so hyped for it.

New Rockstar's latest podcast. Road to Doomsday is our way to share that hype with the new Marvel fans, the old Marvel fans, and everybody in between. Every episode of Road to Doomsday digs into a movie or TV series that helped get Marvel Studios to where it is now. There's so much fascinating on screen and behind the scenes lore that led from Blade to Doomsday, and we're here to map every twist and turn on that journey for you. Join the hosts of new rock stars as we put collective lifetimes of obsession, fandom and industry experience to productive use on the Road to Doomsday. Road to Doomsday is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.

Hey, I'm Mike Berenholz. On my new show, Funny You Ask, Trivia starts the conversation, and then things immediately go off the rails. I ask a question. My guests think they know the answer. Sometimes they do. More often, they do not. And then the conversation takes a turn. One trivia question turns into stories about career highs, painful bonds.

and behind-the-scenes moments that probably should have remained private. You'll hear confidence, misplace confidence, bold guesses, wrong answers, quick laughs, and the slow realization that maybe this was a bad idea to say out loud. If you like smart comedy, sharp conversations, and trivia that exists purely to melt people's brains, this is Funny You Ask with me, Ike Barrenholz. Follow Funny You Ask with Ike Barrenholz on Spotify, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Dr. Mike. Wow. We are all so starstruck, but we will not allow that to compromise the integrity of this interview. Welcome to Sounds Like a Cult. Wow. Such high praise. I appreciate that. But I'm starstruck because I'm excited to learn from your wisdom and perhaps share some of my experiences from this wacky world I find myself in.

Oh my God, a bit of mutual love bombing. We love that. Could you introduce yourself for our listeners who dare not know and explain your relationship to the cult of Make America Healthy Again. I'm Dr. Mikhail Varshavsky, better known as Dr. Mike, especially in the world of social media. I'm a board certified family medicine physician that focuses on prevention instead of just cures and really try and spend the half of my time educating the world for the huge amount of misinformation. They're being dealt every single day, both on social media, traditional media, television, etc. with the primary driver that is currently head of Health and Human Services, RFK Jr.,

and the organization known as Maha, Make America Healthy again. So you're a culty antidote in this Godforsaken world. So one thing about cults is that they often operate on the promise that insiders have access to some kind of transcendent wisdom, a promise that is actually often based on fallacious logic or lies. From your perspective, what are some of the core values that people in the Maha world, including otherwise smart and decent people, are holding onto right now? And where does the actual science land on these claims? Yeah, I think the entire Maha movement started with some great principles, trying to keep kids as healthy as possible, realizing that we're facing a chronic disease epidemic, making sure that we get people out into sunlight, moving around,

spending time outdoors, not just fixed on our devices. The fact that we have, tremendous health care spending in our nation, one of the most in the world, if not the most in the world, and yet the outcomes that we get are far from good. And then on top of it, the lack of access for many people who want to participate in our health care system and unfortunately face barriers. So the Maha movement really had an upswing with all of these true issues circling their lives because that's the reality they face. And I'm not one to disprove that. I think that is the true reality. I see my patients struggle with this all the time. The issue with the Maha framing of it all is twofold. One, when they titled the movement, Maha, they say that they

want to make Americans or make America healthy again. And what I don't understand as a doctor is where is that again? When were we healthier than we are today? Do we want to go back to a time prior to the polio vaccine, to the time prior to antibiotics where if you stub your toe, that could be a death sentence. So I don't quite know what the again portion of the Maha titling refers to. That's something I've yet to get an answer on. And then the second portion, as you mentioned in your opening, this moral superiority of hidden wisdom, that they know something that everyone else doesn't know. And anyone that disagrees with them means that they're lying. It's further proof of this conspiracy that's happened. I think those are the two major through lines within the Maha organization

that I think ultimately work against what they're trying to achieve. And that's what's most disappointing to me, because all those individuals that want to be healthy, that want their children to be healthy, I want that for them. But the things that they're advocating for and the way they're going about it is actually going against those goals. So not all modern day cults do have a clear leader, but you already mentioned Maha's Lord and Savior Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who I guess does kind of seem to fit the role of cult leader in addition, I guess, to certain influencers who do make up a lot of the online evangelizing and recruiting. But my question for you is, what qualities do you think make

RFK Jr. just so influential? And do you think they mirror cult leader qualities in any capacity? Yeah, it's tough to say. I even would hesitate to call him a cult leader. It's almost this cult-like personality. And the reason why I make that distinction is because I don't want. people to feel shut out from this conversation. In the discussion of maha and all the topics that we're bound to get into today, I want to feel like we're bringing people into the fold with transparency, with honesty, because those are all the things that Secretary Kennedy and the other members of the Maha movement, they preach, they say that they espouse, but I want to uncover the fact that that is far from reality. But I do think that there's a cult like presence there, because what's

interesting about Secretary Kennedy is he had this popular start, probably driven by the political name and the fame that came along with that. Then he was an environmental lawyer advocating on behalf of citizens who want a cleaner environment. He came up during a time when there was already an incredibly high level of governmental distrust following the COVID-19 pandemic. So all of these ingredients kind of were simmering to the top. You have the distrust of the government. He feels like in every man who's advocating against large corporations, against governmental control. And that's why you see this interesting flip,

where initially he ran for president as a Democrat. And when that was becoming not so successful, he swapped independent only to join the Republican administration of President Trump. And it goes to show that the way that he's actually garnered so much support for the Maha movement is that he's transcended partisan politics and combined a lot of these different principles that each party espouses and brought them into the fold.

What also makes me believe that he has a bit of a cult-like persona is that any time you criticize something that he says, people believe that he is the only one capable of telling the truth. And that is not the case in any reality. Even when I speak, I believe I should be questioned, I should be challenged. In fact, recently I had Jesse Eisenberg on my podcast and he was asking me about chat GPT and medical advice, and he thought I was going to say that I hate it. I surprised them and said, I don't mind when patients do it. And he said he was ready to challenge me. And I was excited for that because I think we should all be challenging each other. If you want to have good ideas, you need to have

them challenged. In fact, that's kind of the cornerstone of science. When we want to put forward a hypothesis, an idea, theory, we need to try our best to disprove that idea in order to see if it can stand on its own. And I don't think what Secretary Kennedy does is science because he believes if you disagree with him, you're part of the problem instead of being open mind that in listening to his critics and allowing that discourse to make all of our ideas come together and function more optimally. I love so much of what you're saying, A, the idea of bringing people into the conversation by hedging our language saying cult-like presence, cult of personality, cult leader energy, You know, we hedge on this podcast through humor rather than precision or like measured professionalism.

But I think they're both valid ways in. But thank you for that. And also, I loved that conversation between you and Jesse Eisenberg. It was such a beautiful representation of like non-toxic masculine discourse. And I was like, this is required viewing. Well, not required. This is gently, if you want to. Prescribed viewing.

Recommended viewing. So Dr. Mike, we often talk about how when it comes to. cults, the ideas are sometimes less important to members than the community that surrounds them. So in your opinion, what are some of the Maha movement's most harmful ideas? Where do they come from? And what aspects of the community allow these ideas to gain traction? Yeah. So usually the initial ideas of these types of movements start with good intentions.

In fact, we've seen this play out in medical media. The medical talk shows when I was going through my medical training was like the Dr. Oz show. And initially that started off as a great program, educating people about heart health, heart healthy diets, ways to incorporate exercise into your everyday life. And that was the early seasons. Later seasons transcended into how your zodiac sign impacts your heart health. So it's like they always start with a little bit of accuracy and a little bit of science. And then it transcends into something else. And I've seen that with the Maha movement where they will rightfully point out that obesity is a huge problem in America.

That chronic disease, pre-diabetes, diabetes, hypertension, all of these issues are huge problems in our nation. And we need to desperately get them under control, especially when it comes to thinking about the quality of life, the length of life, and the health care dollars that are continually ballooning to truly a level that's going to be unsustainable and the system will undoubtedly bring. I think about these ideas that they start off with, and we can take ultra-processed foods as an example. Now, if we look at data between ultra-processed foods and whole foods, we see that generally people who consume ultra-processed foods to a higher level will have worse health outcomes. They will over-consume those ultra-processed foods because of the way that they're designed. Now, the way that these foods are designed is done so in order to get you to eat more of the foods. Was this done maliciously in order to get you to be sick in order for you to develop a cancer,

heart disease? No. It's much more simple than that. It's right in front of all of us. The companies want to sell you more of their ultra-processed food and if they can make it in a way where it's leading you to not feel satiated. If it's addictive in nature, they're absolutely going to make more money. And at the end of the day, that's what private companies do. That's sort of their goal. So we start with the notion of ultra-processed food seem to be on the whole less healthy, that if we over-consume them, they create a problem. And then it starts finding its way to who's to blame. Well, it's the companies to blame. Well, the companies are poisoning us. Well, they're poisoning us to keep us sick in order to make a profit. Anytime we see seed oils on a packaging that

automatically means this food is awful. Anytime we see any kind of metal component in a food, we automatically assume it's awful. But that type of thinking is not very logical because a lot of times when it comes to thinking about one's whole life, there are so many risk factors at play. There are so many variables in our lives that change how we feel, how we live, how long we live, the quality of our lives. And this could be from something as simple as if you have your shades open in the morning and you're exposed to early sunlight, whether you go for walks, whether you have a support

system, you have barriers to accessing health care, all of these factors matter. But they simplify into something that creates an us versus them mentality. And when you start creating this us versus them mentality instead of creating solutions and thinking about it in a nuanced way, you have a recipe for disaster, especially in the day and age of social media where algorithms love villainization, they love extreme content. And that's really given credence, power to the Maha movement in a way where we've completely neglected nuance. We've lost sight of the fact that, hey, injecting peptides chemicals that are not well tested could be bad, and yet Secretary Kennedy is all about them.

And when we have really great evidence, decades worth of evidence across many nations, many continents for vaccines, also chemicals, he suddenly thinks these are bad. And it's very clear that we're not keeping any sort of logical consistency here. And that's the flag that I love to raise for those who support the Maha movement because ultimately, I don't think the Maha movement is doing what they think it is. The hypocrisy is really quite something. It reminds me if I used to work in the beauty and wellness industry. And there was a girl who would like not take ibuprofen for pain because it was like the Western medicine, but her face was full of fillers. The crazy. Modern medicine. But look, here's the thing as an individual. I just want to give you my mindset. and I'm curious how you reflect on it. As a doctor, a patient tells me that,

I actually don't think that's problematic because everyone sets arbitrary lines in their lives, whether it's who they want to date or what kind of food they like to eat. So, like, everyone has their own preferences. It's when they start becoming activist and advocating for it, not truthfully. Not saying, I don't like taking it, that's fine,

but it's dangerous to take ibuprofen. It's much safer to do filler. And that's when I start developing a problem with it because now you're misinforming people. That's an essential distinction. Genuinely, like, do whatever you want, but do not evangelize to me. And I'm sure you saw the Tylenol Autism Press Conference, which was an absolute disaster. Oh, my God. Wait, so, Dr. Mike, this isn't a side.

But so you've touched on your thoughts on seed oils, peptides and vaccines. I'd love to know your thoughts on, like, the newest legislation that's been introduced to removing fluoride in water. I think folks have developed, especially in the Maha group, this chemophobia where anything that sounds like a chemical means it's automatically terrible for you. But there's actually two principles that we need to keep in mind when we're evaluating the safety of a chemical. One is hazard. One is risk. The simplest way to explain this is a shark is hazardous, right? No one wants to hang out with a great white shark. But the risk of you having a shark attack if you're not in the ocean is zero, unless you're watching one of those 911 medical

dramas where the shark escapes onto the highway and is floating all over the place. So it's as much about whether or not this chemical is hazardous, but what is your exposure to said chemical? What is the route of exposure? And what is the dosage of that exposure? And what we fail to realize is we have all sorts exposures in our everyday lives with certain chemicals that are totally normal that our bodies are well accustomed to and it doesn't necessarily mean that when you hear chemical, even a specific chemical like fluoride, it automatically means it's bad. The research that folks grab onto about fluoride and its effect on developing minds and children is largely tied to extremely high doses of fluoride and not what is added routinely to drinking water at several locations across the United States.

and yet it has tremendous benefit for the development of proper dental hygiene, dental health, and those factors matter a lot, especially when you think about the disproportionate impact on those who are facing difficult socioeconomic times. And that's the reality that we need folks to focus on. If you don't want to have fluoride in your water, you by all means, especially as a wealthy person who are not impacted by fluoride, you can go by bottled water, which by the way is not necessarily better. There's issues with plastics and bottled water, bacteria, all sorts of other things that can come up. But you can get bottled water. You can get a filter to remove the fluoride

and allow the public health measures to help as many people as possible. Because the reality of healthcare is there's always a trade-off. No matter what treatment we're instituting, medication, surgery, therapy, there are always pros and cons. And that's difficult to assess for an individual, but even more difficult to assess across a public health spectrum, that doesn't mean we give up and don't do it. We do it and we try and do it as best as we can with informed consent, educating people on the research that needs to be done. And actually, I think that's the strongest word of all of this.

We need to do the research when Secretary Kennedy has cut hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars for research surrounding treatments, preventing things like pancreatic cancer, ALS. I mean, diseases that are catastrophic if one of our family members God forbid, is to develop it. And yet, instead of saying, you know, he is questioning fluoride, great, do a study on it, fund the study, let's talk about those results of that study. But that's not what he's actually interested in doing.

He's interested in scoring political points, getting those PR wins, talking about titanium dioxide being removed from Skittles, instead of fighting the real barriers that truly improve public health, getting people insurance coverage, making sure they have transportation to their appointments, getting them stable work, mental health care access, getting all of these pharmaceutical industries in line so that they can act more transparently, that they can actually explain why they're choosing certain prices for their medications, have them be even more stringent with their research, come down on conflicts of interest equally hard as you do for the financial industry, as you do the supplement industry. So as you could tell, I get really excited about this.

Totally. Oh my God. Thank you for that. And your point about the Maha movement infusing words that sound chemically with this strong emotional charge is a hallmark of cultish language and transitions kind of perfectly into our next question. Yes. Are there any specific rituals or language that signal to you that someone is deep in the Maha mindset? I think when we start bringing up terms like all natural detoxing, these words traditionally signal that you are part of this movement.

not necessarily part of it, but at least going down into that rabbit hole. And the reason why all natural has this bit of maha conspiratorial mindset to it is that there is an assumption, a false assumption, that just because something is natural means it's safe, or just because something is natural means it's better than this synthetic version of this chemical, of this product, of this food. And that's also not true. So that's where that nuance needs to come in and we need to leave our assumptions at the door and try our best to understand what research shows, what research is valuable, what research we need to take with a bit of grain of salt because it's not accurate, and fight back against all of these labeling and words that essentially someone else is trying to

sell us. Because if we look at packaging nowadays, there's so much fearmongering that goes on when you're just walking down your local grocery store aisle from non-GMO, gluten-free, Like I saw the other day a chicken cutlet, like an actual just piece of chicken with no bread around it, and it was labeled gluten-free or salt that was non-GMO. And it's like it's not an organism. You don't need a GMO sticker on it. But this is that type of marketing that is almost like a dog whistle for those in the Maha community. So you've already touched on this a good bit.

But distrust of doctors has given way too many modern day cults that we have covered from like anti-vaxxers to a multi-level marketing people. But one really complicated thing about cultish groups is that there is always a grain of truth to their thinking. So what are those real problems with the American health care system that the Maha movement is tapping into? You've named a few already. And what do you think would actually fix those problems in a non-culte way? Yeah, I think it starts with not enough access to insurance coverage. No time that your doctor spends with you, or at least not enough time, that the doctor spends time with you, difficulty in accessing primary care, the fact that we spend so much money in our country on healthcare, and yet so many people can't access it. And the ones who do

can end up facing bankruptcy because of surprise billing or issues related to their insurance, being out of network, and all these games that these large corporations play at our expense. Now, all of these issues are real, and they require simple, boring, It's almost like when people ask me about longevity, because it's such a hot topic right now. Like everyone wants to live forever. Everyone is Brian Johnson reincarnated. And the reality is the things that help you live longer and a better quality of life are the boring things that grandma told us about. Sleeping well, making sure you're getting enough, exercising.

It doesn't even matter what kind of exercise you do. You want to do Pilates, CrossFit, weight lift, marathon, it doesn't matter. as long as you're moving, that is the win. And then eating a wide variety of fruits and vegetables, a plant-focused diet with some lean cuts of meat, if you prefer. So that is what gives you the best bang for your buck. And obviously avoiding bad habits that we know are detrimental to health, smoking, excessive alcohol, consumption, et cetera. So that is the cornerstone of longevity. And yet, that is not what the majority of social media or podcast bros will tell you, they will try and sell you the shiny miracle promise of a red light bed, hyperbaric

oxygen chamber, cold plunge, a cold sack to hold your genitals in while you walk into the sauna. I'm not making this up, by the way. This is a new world that we're living in. I was not ready to hear cold sack at all. Wait, is that because, like, he is bad for male sperm? Like, so you need a cold sack to protect it while you saw him? Supposedly. Well, it's not supposedly heat has a negative impact on sperm for sure that's actually why the scrotum is descended from your body keeps the sperm cells away from the heat of your body so they're a couple of degrees cooler but that is not why they talk about this cooling sac they talk about it because they worry it impacts their testosterone production or their general health and we don't have evidence for

that and that's the reality of a lot of these biohackers where they outpace the level of evidence to try and get ahead of things, which if you really hold them to the claims that they've made across their careers, the huge majority of them turn out to be wrong and incorrect, but they bank on you for getting all of those claims and just remembering the one time that they were right. But if you want to choose a good person to listen to for health advice, you much rather take the person who is more often right than they are wrong than more often wrong than they are right. Because health is about limiting bad things, not trying to find the one miracle thing and getting a bunch of bad things to happen to you. So to me, this shiny object that all these biohackers try and sell you is really

a distraction. That's the micro level. If we zoom out to the macro level, Secretary Kennedy, instead of focusing on getting mental health care covered, family leave as part of medical care, good reproductive rights secured for our nation, instead of focusing on all of these important issues that dramatically improve quality of life are preventive, not reactive. Like they often talk about our system being all about cures, not about prevention. Vaccines are prevention, but he has some sort of weird quam about them and is anti-vaccine. Oh, and going after big pharma when they're acting inappropriately, pharmacy benefit managers is a whole other book of worms to open.

So instead of focusing on all these boring things that require work, he tries to sell us the shiny stuff. the seed oils, the beef tallow, the titanium dioxide and skittles, that all red dyes are responsible for every behavioral problem in children. And that's just not the reality. And there might be some bits of evidence in there to support some of those things, but it's not the huge problem. So we're getting some of these PR wins, but at the expense of actually making progress. And when it comes to making us healthier, we need to invest in innovation. And the exact opposite is happening. We're having a cutback on innovation. We're losing the most brilliant minds in our country

that are going abroad because they're losing all their grants. I personally know at least a half dozen scientists whose labs have closed and they had to relocate outside of the U.S. because their research is no longer being funded. So I don't know how one can claim that you're trying to make America healthy when you're focusing on the shiny object, not going after the big wins, and cutting back the one thing that can give us hope for creating a healthy. future. From defunding real scientific innovation to removing the coding off of Skittles and apparently cold sacks for your balls while you saw that, I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be letting go of that. What do you think is the number one? Is that going to be the title? I'm just like so

shook by this. I'm trying to imagine the kind of man who makes that kind of investment in his future. What do you think is the number one cultiest thing? about Maha, like if you had to pinpoint just one belief or worst case scenario. I think it's the hypocrisy that they believe that they have this unique wisdom that lead them to be very strong skeptics of big pharma, governmental agencies, the failing medical system. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. The bad thing actually comes from the fact that they do it unilaterally, that they don't then have some of that skepticism.

for their own in-group and things that their group supports. So it's good to be skeptical of Big Pharma. I advise it. I encourage all my residents that I train in my hospital to be skeptical. But I don't tell them just to be skeptical of Big Pharma. You also need to be skeptical of the supplement world. All of these natural miracle promise formulas

that RFK swears that he loves and enjoys. So I think it needs to be bidirectional. It needs to be fair. And it needs to be honest because, If we look at the pharmaceutical industry, while I am skeptical of them, and they've certainly done us a disservice with the opioid epidemic and all these other issues over the years, they at least have to prove their medications work. They have to prove some sort of safety profile.

They have to do interaction checks to show how these medications interact with others. And guess what? If they do something bad, their profits are at stake, so they have some sort of liability. You have someone to come after. But in the supplement world, where these supplement companies open and and closed, it seems like week in and week out, there is no liability. There is no proof that needs to happen in order to make a supplement. I can right now make whatever formula I want, bottle it up right here, put it in a nice can and say, this is equivalent health benefit to cold

sacking in the sauna. And suddenly, people might buy it. You know, so you just, you need to be honest about it. Yeah. And, you know, I think that that comparison right there really just sums up the wide variety of insidious ways that this movement can get to you. Like, no matter where you are, no matter what you like to do, Maha will find a way to make you feel like you're not being healthy enough. So I guess my question for you is it's pretty likely that all of us know somebody who's in deep. If we have a friend or family member who is deep into Maha, maybe they just wanted to start eating healthier, fell down a rabbit hole. How do you recommend talking to them about it without pushing them further in? Yeah, I think you have to lead with empathy and understanding. What I like to do

and I feel like I've done this at baseline ever since childhood, is be curious about other people. And when someone has a unique belief that you disagree with, if you go into a conversation trying to persuade that individual to change their mind, even if you have good intentions in doing so, the odds of you being effective in doing that are quite low. The best ways to get someone to be open-minded, to see your point of view,

is to also be open-minded and see their point of view and see where their logic comes from and be curious about that. You know, I did this Jubilee surrounded debate format a couple of times. And even though all those people disagreed with me, some of them hate the healthcare system, maybe even hated doctors. Afterwards, we had productive conversations. Some of them asked for selfies. Some of them changed their minds after those debates.

And it happened because instead of talking like doctor and patient or doctor and non-expert, we talked like humans. We were both genuinely curious in one another. And the more you approach it in that way, I think the more successful you can be. What if you, like, got on their level in terms of, like, conspiratorial whispering and you were like, oh, my God, oh, my God. Wait, you know what I've heard about? There's, like, this supplement that you can put in your water. It's called, like, fluoride.

I don't know. And it's really, like, it's kind of, like, controversial, but, like, that's why we like it. And, like, I don't know. I hear it's band now. I like, I like this reverse psychology. Yeah, yeah. I hear it's, like, it could make your teeth, like, amazing. Like, what do you think?

Like, flea. Definitely a strategy worth studying. Thank you. I'm gonna give it a go. Okay, so Dr. Mike, before we let you go, we're gonna play a little game with you. It's a new game for Sounds Like a Colt called Claims Court. So we're gonna read you a series of health claims

and you're gonna have to guess whether each claim was made by a Maha influencer or a notorious cult leader from history. Ooh, okay. The first one goes like this. Mental illness and physical illness are caused by spiritual trauma and can be cured through our methods, not medicine. Oh, it feels maha. It does, doesn't it? But instead, that is a Church of Scientology claim. Oh, is there overlap there? I don't even know. I'm not familiar enough with Scientology.

Oh, I'm sure. I don't know. They're powering their speed runs with, like, extra protein and all the gymro stuff. Okay. Next one. Nicotine pouches can combat Alzheimer's or ADHD. I think I even know who may have said this. Is it Tucker Carlson? It was so would-be Tucker Carlson, wouldn't it?

He loves those things. No, it's Jillian Michaels, who's technically a Maha influencer, but also a cult leader, in our opinion, as we've covered her on our biggest loser episode. I feel like she did an appearance on his show. I feel like it was close. No, definitely. Definitely. No, no, you get a point. And that sounded like Tucker.

So onion water should be tried before over-the-counter medications like Tylenol. Well, it has to be recent because Tylenol wasn't a thing in the ancient time. So I'm going to say Maha. Correct. That was Maha influencer, Diary of a Crunchy Mom. Wow. Well, the Crunchy Mom thing is interesting. It goes to show how right now, obviously, the Maha movement is quite libertarian, Republican, but it used to be on the Democratic side.

So it's interesting how the movement has sort of, I don't know, fractures the right word, kind of coelence, coelaced, coelast. Yeah. Coelaced. Coeleste. Sorry, English has a second language here struggling. No, yeah. No, you're doing amazing, sweetie. I mean, when I hear Crunchy Mom, maybe 20 years ago, someone would have thought of like a divine, feminine, hippie left wing, girly.

But now when I hear Crunchy Mom, I think Maga. Okay. So the next one. Dying is not the end. It's a revolutionary act or a transition to a better existence. Okay, this feels Egypt. Pharaoh days. Because they believed in the afterlife.

It's historical context. Yeah. It is cult leader. It's from the people's temple cult. Jim Jones. What era is that? The 70s. Next claim.

Yoga and meditation alone can cure serious diseases and eliminate the need for medical treatment. Cult leader or maha. I mean, that's maha for sure. and I'm trying to see who would say that. Yoga. I don't want to get in trouble saying someone's name, so who is? You don't have to. I mean, you added that dimension to the game.

It's totally unnecessary. But that was actually a claim made by the Beekram Yoga Cult. I don't know if you've seen that documentary. I did watch that Netflix documentary on it. It was creepy. Yes, indeed. Next one. You can purify your body and mind through extreme fasting and isolation.

Oh, this feels like Wim Hof. It does feel like Wim Hof. is not Wim Hof. It is a cult leader. It is the love has one cult. Oh, okay. Next one, all of your maladies from self-esteem to sadness are caused by parasites. By parasites. It feels like there's going to be some ivermectin tie or something, so it feels maha. Definitely maha influencer. It's Kim Rogers, a self-recllaimed worm queen. Oh, worm queen. Great. Great that exists. Love that. Okay. Our final claim. Colloidal silver and alternative remedies can heal the body and protect against disease.

Oh, this feels like that naturopath dude on YouTube. I'm going to say maha. That was the love has one cult. Again. Oh. Lots of over that. What is that cult? Because it sounds so lovely.

Like, I want to support it. It's the Galactic Federation of Light, new religious movement. This lady, Amy Carlson. Mother God. Just, you know, pretty right in the middle. Yeah, Mother God. Yeah, yeah. But this game is interesting because it just goes to show how if you package the same ideas under a cult leader aesthetic versus like a mainstream Maha aesthetic, then suddenly it seems worse. But actually it's all kind of the same. Yeah, that's the thing with these cult leaders. You have to remember that it's like, if you want to make a good decision for your health, look for the evidence, not the charisma.

T. Dr. Mike, thank you so much for joining this interview. What a thrill. If people want to keep you. keep up with you and your mission. Where can they find you? We're Dr. Mike on every platform. I should have come up with a more interesting name for our channels, but it's self-titled. And the biggest takeaway that I'd love for folks to get from our conversation is that I and the healthcare industry are partly to blame for the rise of Maha. We've had a lot of failures in not giving enough time to our patients, in creating a system that doesn't keep them as the top priority, feeling like we didn't need to be there to answer their questions on certain platforms, especially social media.

And as a result, we've created these vacuums and a distrust that has led people to seek answers elsewhere. And in this case, happens to be in the wrong place and ultimately going to harm them. So I hope we can find a way to seek understanding, bring folks into the fold, and ultimately overcome this tremendous health challenge that's before us. Thank you so much. You? All right, y'all.

Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which do we think the cult of Maha falls into? Should we say it on the count of three? Yeah. We might all have different answers, but okay. One, two, three. Get the fuck out. Amanda.

Are you not sure? Do you want to stay? No. The cult of Maha, get the fuck out. In its final boss form, get the fuck out. I was thinking like if we really want to divide, because it is natural for the human mind in times of crisis and tumult or whatever to like start dividing into us versus them, splitting, whatever. But I'm just like if you want to demonize someone, demonize the profit-driven companies, not the government.

Or I mean, demonize this government. But like, I don't know. It's so upside down and backwards and twisted. I think it has to be a get the fuck out, even if some of the intentions are pure and some of the needs that it's attempting to fill are real. I also think Maha get the fuck out and in a lot of ways holistic medicine get the fuck in. I think that there's so much to be said about the ways in which we can supplement our health and the ways Western medicine with Eastern medicine and alternative solutions.

I really do think those two things looking at your body and your mind holistically is like connected parts of the self. Addressing that injunction with Western medicine and health is so important. but those that take advantage of that and then tow the line and dip too far into conspiracy, that's when you need to get the fuck out. Yeah. If I can make one final point, be nice to your doctors. And I think it's indicative that we need systemic changes for the ways in which, like, you know, cult of medical school, the ways in which our doctors are treated because Dr. Mike's number one piece of medical advice for people I saw in another interview is to build a good relationship with your primary care physician.

And these doctors, the ones that are really good are the ones that are empathetic. And unfortunately that also means that they burn out way too fast. So I think that treating this as not a human issue is also part of the problem. Ooh, hot tip. Chelsea, you got anything? No, I'm just remaining my same from the beginning. It's get the fuck out. Okay, let's go.

Yeah. All right. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. Pick around for a new cult next week. And in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. It'll work. It'll work out.

Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of The Podcaven. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel, Reese Oliver, Chelsea Charles, and Amon Haririakia. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultiv. the language of fanaticism, which inspired the show.

You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Oversthinking, notes on modern irrationality, and word slut, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult pod, or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.