Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Marathon Runners

Episode Date: July 27, 2021

Welcome to the world of fitness trackers, high-performance athletic gear, nutrition goo, obsessively comparing your stats, and trying to  beat your PR… it’s the “cult” of marathoners. Is the seemingly healthy practice of running as pure as it‘s made out to be, or can it take over people’s lives in a disturbingly culty way? With the help of a special guest, fitness influencer (and Isa’s comedy pal) Lydia Keating, we’re talking all things athletics, competition, capitalism, and Tik Tok to try and assess how cultish the running community really is.

Okay besties, I'm about to go for a 10 mile run, this whole fit is outdoor voices, I'm actually obsessed. I'm going to show you guys a few things that I do before I run. Dare I call them running hacks, no we hate it. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day, cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina, a comedian and documentarian, and I'm Amanda Montell, an author and linguist. Today's Cult of the Week is the marathon running community, and we're going to get real honest about it to try and answer the big question.

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? So I did propose this cult because I used to run cross country and high school believe it or not. I didn't realize this until it was like in hindsight looking back, that I was lowkey like addicted to running, like you get literal endorphins from it, it's like a chemical you can't make on your own unless you exercise. And then I stopped running in college and I was like super depressed the first like year and realized it was because of running and then I just saw like Instagram influencers

who are into running and social media and we did a little bit of research and I came across this article running not so much a liberating hobby as a cult. Yeah, a researcher at Lund University named Karris Egan-Wyer did their PhD thesis on the cult of running and something that I found really interesting about it and really connected to just from my totally layman's personal experience, knowing someone who was in this quote unquote cult is that it's proposed as this really healthy thing running. It's presented as this antidote to stress and anxiety and we should be doing more of it.

But under toxic American productivity culture and neoliberalism and capitalism, it actually can make stress worse because it's so competitive. It becomes like work, it becomes like flogging yourself like a religious person, you know. Definitely and also with modern technology it's become so easy to measure your success with running. You have these watches, it's like how many steps have you taken a day? How many miles did you run at? What pace and you compare it to your last mile and all of a sudden you have these apps

and they're telling you like, oh, last week you had a better week, like do you want to do more? Or like when your fucking eye watch is like, you haven't stood up all day, do you want to stand up? It's like, bitch, no, I do not want to stand up. My parents got Apple watches and I'll never forget it because as soon as they did and they're so competitive, I beheld them ruthlessly compete to see who would get the most number of steps for months, for months.

Yeah, and that's what this article says. She said that like a lot of runners, if they were on a long run and their watch died, they would essentially just stop running because they couldn't measure the amount of miles and at what pace they were going. This article was talking about how marathoners will use the language of capitalism to talk about running, they'll talk about investing time and money into their training and equipment in order to get the best returns, you know? If you look into the marathon community, you have to pay a lot of money to literally

just run. You pay $200 to run 26 miles and get one blanket and it's just so that you feel like you're a part of this community and then you get an email for it about the next year and then you join a team and then all of a sudden it's like you're starting to form, you know, those little bubbles that like slowly really reflect a cult. It's a sort of thing where it's like no one's forcing you to be a part of this group, like other types of more destructive cults. The exit cost isn't super high.

I actually do kind of think that the exit costs could be high because all of a sudden it's associated with the chemical levels in your brain. So they think like, if I stop running, I'll be depressed because I won't get the serotonin that I was getting or the like community that you were running with, you might think that if you leave the community of runners, you have to stop running because it's hard to get up at six in the morning unless you're meeting up with someone. To keep you accountable. Yeah.

You have people keeping you accountable. Yeah. This reminds me so much of the mystery man that I won't name but lived with. He was someone who fits this description that I often talk about. He was a seeker, someone who was vulnerable, had an alcohol problem, mental health problems, and was not interested in receiving help from the mainstream channels. He didn't want to go to talk therapy. He didn't want psychiatry.

He didn't want to go to AA. So he would turn to these like fringier groups in order to help himself. He did transcendental meditation once, very, very culty. And then he took up marathon running in a sort of missionary way. He tried to get me to run with him, I ran one 5K and you still talk about it. I talk about it every day. He said to me once, trying to shame me because I wasn't a runner like him. He was like, well, don't you ever want to like really accomplish anything?

Wait, what? He literally said, don't you ever feel like you want to accomplish anything? I get my sense of accomplishment from other things, not from races, but from like, you know, writing work and getting it published and stuff. And he was like, well, it's not the same because you'll never cross a finish line. What the fuck? Yeah. That's so dumb.

It's like you can feel accomplished from making your bed. I think this speaks to the idea that a toxic person can make anything toxic and a toxic community can make anything culty. It's not about the product. It's not about the service. It's not even about the ideology or the belief system. So like you can take something as wholesome as running and make it culty because it's not really about the running.

Yeah, it's not. It's about people who are like seeking community and it's like just join a group of ex-lawyers and title it communities. I actually used to try to convince the mystery and toxic man I used to know to find other people to run with because I thought if you have other people to do this with, that might help fill a void for you in like a healthier way. Yeah, no, and I totally get the need to surround yourself with a community so that you feel supported and you feel inspired.

Like I ran cross country in high school, but the only reason I got up at six in the morning to run on Sundays was because I didn't want to let my team down. Yeah. That's why I literally pay for SoulCycle or for Rumble because I need something to hold me accountable. I also think a red flag for marathon running communities is when all of a sudden you find that they are your only friends. I always found that with like college clubs too.

People were just so easily entranced by like one community and it's like, why are you closing yourself off to like everything else that exists in the world? To me, it's like, it's a hobby. Yeah. Relax. Oh, just the nature of it. Like you're not going to wake up randomly in the morning one day and go run a marathon. Like just the nature of it.

You literally have to run hours a day competitive time consuming. That said, there is a way to do it right. I mean, we have one mutual friend, John, who runs ultra marathons like 70 mile races. Really? I didn't know that. Which is great. Yeah. He's never mentioned it to me.

Exactly. So I was just thinking like he is the most intense marathoner I've ever met and it's never even come up because he's also a filmmaker and like has a partner and has a dog and like has so much. It's not his whole life. It's not his personality. Even though it very well could be because he literally runs the longest races I've ever heard of.

Yes. Exactly. It's like red flag. When someone makes their hobby, their personality, it's like, you're might be in a cult. After the break, we are going to talk to a friend of mine, a fellow comic and a marathon running in Sir. On TikTok, she kind of has a cult following of her own, but seems to me like she's been pretty good at balancing it all.

So we wanted you to hear from her. To get started. Okay. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself, like who you are, what you do. My name is Lydia Keating. My TikTok handle is at Lydia Lou one to one. That's different from my Instagram handle, which is just at Lydia Lou one to important distinction.

Don't get a twist. Yeah. We know each other through standup. And then the pandemic happened and then I started doing TikTok and my TikTok has had many faces. It's been an iterative process. I really was trying to figure out what cult do I want to be? And I would say my most six, where I'm at now, I'm kind of unfortunately a fitness

influencer. Yikes. Don't self-deprecate. It's sexy. Also, you're multi-hyphenate. Okay. What do you think? I feel like you've been a beauty influencer.

Oh, really? Oh, because of the makeup. Yeah. When I was doing, I did like makeup story times where I basically was telling a story while putting on makeup. It started off with, I was just actually doing my standup material, then I ran out of material because I really only had a tight 10. So you were trying to build a TikTok empire.

Yeah. Well, so I lost my job and naturally I was like, TikTok. I admire your work ethic so much because you are like, lose job, edit, TikTok. I like lost my job and watched like everything on Netflix. I think I kind of looked at what made you want to like get into running in general, because I know like the first video you posted off the bat, it was like 13 miles or something. Yeah. Right.

It was a half marathon. Yeah. It was. Yeah. Yeah. So at that point, I'd already been like running a lot of truth of it as I was extremely impressed in the beginning of the pandemic gained a lot of weight. That was why I was living in LA.

Left LA because my roommates both moved out of our house and so I had to move home and I'm from a very like beautiful rural area in Rhode Island, but there's not much to do. And I was also like in a very bad mental space. I had gone through phases of being really into running in the past, but I just like got really into it in a way that like I hadn't been before. So I was like, you know what? Fuck it.

I just put on a running video up here and that just clearly they were successful and so I just started doing more of those. So that's how I ended up. Lean in. Lean in. Yeah. Lean in. Yeah.

Lean in. Yeah. I think it helped that I was like really socially isolated because trying to become famous on TikTok, I think it would be awkward if I like was posting these videos and then like seeing people. I wasn't seeing anyone. Yeah. So I was like, I could give a fuck what I post.

Like it's so embarrassing to like post a video and then like see all your comments. Comedy friends at like an open mic and be like, oh, you saw that that only got 120 views. Yeah. Embarrassing. Yeah. Yeah. Or like wonder whether they think it's funny. I was like, I wasn't seeing anyone.

And you also probably didn't feel guilty about like missing out on real life because like there was no real life. And that's actually something I'm like really grappling with now is like not knowing what the balance is. After you started becoming a TikTok running influencer, did you notice that there was sort of like a running community? Like how do runners connect with each other? Are there groups that you can join either in person or online?

What does that running world look like? Well, runners in the running world can be incredibly culty, but I think the reason why my platform or my account appeals to a lot of people is because I try to like stay away from those tropes. First of all, just like visibly really culty runners are very thin. You look like you're a runner and I think I like don't necessarily like fit that mold. I noticed your legs when you walked in. Thank you.

Oh, I am wearing a very short squirt. So yeah, it's a squirt. I have noticed that like there are some other running TikTokers who follow me, but then I go to their accounts and no shade to them, but I'm like, I just would never be interested in following this person because it's just like a culty runners are like into the nitty gritty of their pace and how many miles they're doing every day and their training plans and their nutrition. It's talking to my friend today because she's like interrunning.

I was like, I'm going to go for a run in Venice. And I intentionally did not ask her to come with me because she like is all about going fast. And as soon as I started to like bring that into it, and maybe it's because I was a college athlete where like the whole thing was always competing and it's just, I have such aversion to it. That's I think the issue is that I'm so competitive that like if I'm running next to someone who's trying to go faster than I am, or like there's this thing in running called like one stepping

where it's like someone who you run next to who always needs to be one step ahead. Oh my gosh, I ran cross country competitively in high school and there was always this girl Julie. Love you girl. I was the fastest one on the team, but she always on long runs was like one step in front of me. I'm like, there's nothing worse than when you're just on like a chill long run and there's always someone who's like trying to push the pace.

It seems to me like you're saying that there are certain things that you notice in yourself that could lend themselves to the cult of running, but you just have enough self awareness of your own tendencies toward competitiveness and some of that toxicity where you're just like I'm putting a boundary here. Yeah, I also think now that my athletic endeavors are so visible and kind of like the bread and butter of my online personality, I'm very nervous about like, I don't really want to be a fitness influencer. That just is like, not a super exciting ambition for me.

And the whole reason why I created an online presence was because of comedy and like wanting to be in the comedic space. So I think if I really leaned into this like hyper competitive runner who wears oak leaves and like tries to go sub eight on like every marathon, I am actually trying to go sub eight on my next page. I literally don't even know what you're saying. Sub eight minute miles, I'm sorry, I only have ever run one 5k and she will not stop talking.

I'm telling you, it was eight years ago and I talk about it like it was last week. It was eight years ago. What? No, it was last week. I just feel like I'm from this world where like so many of my athlete peers are really, really competitive, have competed at the collegiate level, which is a high level and those are not the people I want to be working out with anymore. Like I worked out with those people for 10 years and like, you got out of that cult.

What made you realize that you wanted to run not with those people? Like kind of what made you decide to leave that cult? I put my pace at the end of every running video. I'm like, here are the stats, 3.01 miles, nine minute pace or whatever it might be. And on the phone to my friend, I was like, yeah, you know, I like run really slow now. I was kind of just like joking, she's like, yeah, you do run really slow. Like, I'm like, okay, bitch. Yeah.

Something you were saying before, which I think is interesting was that you don't really think you've been sucked into the cult of the marathon running world because you have one foot out the door because you're really trying to do comedy. And I think that's actually really healthy. And it's one of the reasons why I wasn't fully, fully sucked into the beauty editor world when I was working in it because I had one foot out the door. Oh, maybe that's why I haven't fallen into the depths of any because I fall into all of them.

Yeah. No, because you were saying before that you have the opposite of an addictive personality. You get bored quickly. Yeah. So you're not going to fully. I'm single, boy. It's funny that you say that because the other thing I was going to say is like, it really sounds like commitment issues.

So you were mentioning your college athletics experience. How would you compare the like D1 athlete experience to the running community? So I rode in college and like a lot of the people I know who are still really into working out like former teammates, they still definitely have a more competitive relationship with working out. A lot of my rowing friends have gone into running, but when I graduated, I felt like I had spent four years being so singular and like not multifaceted hadn't explored any part of myself at all.

My friends were my teammates. I was practicing twice a day every day. I had all these other interests that I hadn't nurtured. So when I got to LA, because I moved here right after graduating, I was like, I am not an athlete. I am abandoning this altogether. Like I refuse to work out ever again. Like this is just not me.

I'm going to go be a writer. Then I got like, you know, it didn't feel good. Like I got like kind of sad and this was over like the course of many months. So then I was like, okay, I'm going to get a gym membership and get back into it. But my instinct was to like get back into working out in the way that I knew it, which was hyper competitive. It wasn't sustainable for me. So it's kind of been this like long journey of figuring out, okay, where does working

out fit into my life? How much of a big role do I want it to be? How much do I want to be thinking about this? How often do I want to be doing this in the past year? Feel like I've like answered that question, which is I want to be someone who works out every day, but I don't want it to be this thing that like dictates other parts of my life at all. I don't want to be like someone who's obsessively looking at my numbers and my pace and stuff

like that. Well, we often talk about the relationship between American culture and cultishness. And you speaking really makes me think that Americans being born and bred to be so competitive and so obsessed with hierarchies is so connected to our cultishness because we're like, if I'm going to throw myself into something, I'm going to throw myself into it 150%. Well, I don't know if this is emblematic of that, but just being back in California and like driving along the PCH seeing all these road bikers, they're dressed to the nines and they're spandex that it all looks like they're like in professional.

And I'm like, none of you, I mean, maybe one or two of them are professional, but like, why do all road bikers, regardless of their level, dress like that? Literally, it's like, relax, it's like French people go hiking in jeans. Exactly. Why are we wearing like REI branded backpacks? I guess because because we are searching for belonging, belonging, yes. I completely agree. I have a whole philosophy about like LA open mic comedy because like it was the first real

sense of belonging I ever had in LA. Crave that it's not bad, it's just when someone takes advantage of it and exploits it. That's bad. Yeah. Doesn't Brené Brown, I'm sure you guys have like looked into this research, her theory is like the number one human instinct that drives all of our decision making is to find a sense of belonging with like people and groups and I mean, that's what cults are. What do you think is the cultiest thing about your TikTok cult that you've created for

yourself and your following? My followers have a name and it's called fruit gang and I have merch that says fruit gang. Gang gang. Yeah, gang gang. It's sold out in like 10 minutes. That's insane. And I think yeah, I think people just like really want to belong to something and then

to have some symbol of the fact that they belong. But people like make videos all the time of them like getting ready for a run, going for a run and like hashtag it fruit gang. Where can people buy your merch? Well, it's sold out right now, but I am dropping very cool new hats. Oh. Yeah, they're like, you guys are the first to know they're like exclusive scoop airbrushed like trucker hats.

Oh, so they're sick. I have a website, Lydia Keating.com. That's where I sell my merch. You mentioned it helps your mental health, but do you feel like you're addicted to running in any capacity or do you think you could leave it for another type of physical activity? I'm addicted to it in the sense that for me, it feels like it's only physical activity that all I need are my running shoes so I can go anywhere. That's why I've never really gotten into cycling or boxing or whatever it may be because just

feels like you have to be in a certain place. You have to have certain tools. The big appealing thing about running also just like in this, I think is like productivity obsession is just like the workout starts literally the moment you step foot out of the door. I have gone through phases where I'm like, I need to be on a treadmill or like going to a SoulCycle class. The total time that that will take is like four hours of your day, depending on where

you drive to the class, get there, get back. With running, it's like you can literally get a two hour workout in in two hours. That's great. Yeah, cumbersome. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. It's very minimalist. You know what else is minimalist?

Going to Century City to do SoulCycle on a rooftop. Back on her SoulCycle bullshit. So running, especially long distance running can create like a lot of injuries like knees, transplant, stress fractures, etc. What do you think of people who get those injuries and keep going? They think it's good for their overall health, but in the long run, they're kind of like hurting their health. Yeah.

That I think is like people who have other issues going on and like they're ignoring them. They need to go to a therapist, a physical one and a mental one. So we're going to play a game of would you rather marathon cult edition, the first round, would you rather have to join a super culty running group that only lets you run as your physical activity? No others makes you report your weekly mileage in times, wear matching running outfits and has a special group chant that you do before and after every run or never be able to have

another running friend or workout buddy ever again and be forced to work out and run alone for the rest of your life. The latter. But I like working out alone. I don't like running with people. Easy answer really. But I didn't want to mention that when Amanda first wrote this would you rather she was like would you rather join a super culty running group that worked out three times a week

at six a.m. To me that's like the cultiest thing in the world having to wake up early. I was like Amanda that is her life. I am such a baby with fitness that I'm like if the class starts any earlier than 1045 it's a cult three times a week. You would have not liked my college workout schedule that no no no I think was culty. I was in a different college cult for my first semester though which is the cult of the NYU theater program.

I'm sure that oh yeah even maybe more. It was awful. I got the hell out of dodge to pursue a linguistics major. And it worked out. Yeah it did. It worked out really good. Two bucks. You taught me how to read.

All right next would you rather. Would you rather move to a tick tock running influencer hype house where you live with other famous tick tock runners and spend all day every day for a year collabing with them. Is that how you even say that word? Collabbing. Collab. Collabbing. Collabbing.

Collabbing. Every day for a year collab. Wait what is it again? Don't worry about it. You hurt me. With them. Yeah. Or move to a super crunchy remote commune and spend all day every day for a year training

for ultra marathons with really intense outdoorsy runners. I think in theory the latter like outdoor and crunchy because that sounds like kind of cooler but like or just like more of an experience where I would like learn things about myself but the former I feel like I'd make more money and I'm kind of on this big thing where I'm trying to make a lot of money. I'm doing this weird thing where I love money. Yeah. I realize I have this like thing for money into it.

Really solves all your problems. It's actually solved quite a bit of mine. Yeah. No, no, no. Like a certain amount of money. Lovely. It's lovely to have. Oh my God.

I mean because I it made me it's really made me realize that when I was living here in LA I was never financially comfortable. But now just like being like yes I can buy my friend that drink and not kind of feel resentful towards them. Okay. Last question. Would you rather never be able to run again or never be able to use social media again? Oh gosh.

That's a good one. Well back to the money thing. Social media is how I make money now. So I think like I really had to choose probably not running again. Capitalism baby. I'm in the cult of capitalism and TikTok and they're very intertwined. Which I honestly really admire about you. Oh thank you.

Thank you. Because it's like I don't know. I'm like I'm a democratic socialist but when people are like trying to fight capitalism I'm like baby. Yeah. It's here to stay. Yeah. I have a friend who like lived in a commune and is all about like how she's a socialist

but then works at Bain. Oh. Oh my God. I just can't handle the performative socialism. So every week we decide the cult of the week if it's a live your life, a watch your back or a get the fuck out level cult. Would you say the cult of marathon runners is? I think it's a watch your back because I think marathon running can quickly turn into

working out disorders and eating disorders and stuff like that so I think you do have to be wary of how all consuming it can become and there's just so many marathon runners who have these other issues. But then obviously running can have this other side of it that it may bring so much joy and health and like it can be wonderful things. Everything in moderation. Mm-hmm. All right.

Including relationships. Where can our listeners find you and be inspired by you and help you make that coin? They can find me on my TikTok although I am trying to expand to YouTube. Oh yes. Cool. Yeah. But my TikTok is at LydiaLew121, my Instagram's at LydiaLew12 and my YouTube up and coming out to YouTube is just Lydia Keating.

And her discount code. Oh, her outro voices. Is fruit gang. Mm. It is. You can always get 20% off. Thank you so much for coming on the pod with us. So Issa, out of the three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the

fuck out. What cult category do you think marathon runners fall into? I feel like going in, I knew what it was going to be, but I wanted to hear out Lydia and I also wanted to, you know, just talk it through. But I do really think it falls firmly in the watch your back category. It grows roots in all things that are fundamental to your mental health. It grows roots in your physical health, your eating habits, your social life, and it totally is used as like a self-medication to help fill certain voids.

If it affects you so deeply in such important aspects of your life, then like it 100% is a watch your back. And that doesn't mean that everybody who's a marathon runner falls into this quote unquote cult. This means if you find yourself getting swept into it, watch your back. That's our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week.

And in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult was created, produced, and edited by Amanda Montell and Issa Medina. Our theme music is by Casey Colb. And if you liked this episode, feel free to give us a rating and review on Apple podcasts.