Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Marching Band

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

Whether it’s the sweat-drenched ten-hour rehearsals, the spine-tingling halftime shows, or the communal showers and gym floor sleepovers… marching bands aren’t just extracurriculars…they’re high-control communities with ritual, hierarchy, and loyalty that rivals religion. In this episode, Amanda & Chelsea are joined by listener Chelsea McFarland, a music educator, marching band alum, and band director, for a deep dive into the glittering, horn-blasting world of band culture. From high school field shows to the cultier-than-thou universe of Drum Corps International (DCI), we ask: is it all just school spirit… or something a little more orchestrated? Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles.  Thank you to our sponsors! Head to ⁠⁠https://www.squarespace.com/CULT⁠⁠ to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code CULT Get 50% + FREE SHIP ONLY at ⁠⁠⁠https://Adamandeve.com⁠⁠⁠ and select any one item. Just enter offer code SLAC at checkout. Please consider donating to those affected by the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Team SLAC are donating to the PCRF, a nonprofit organization providing vital medical care, food, and humanitarian aid to children and families in need. London! Come see Sounds Like A Cult LIVE!! November 24th at Bush Hall. Get tickets before they're gone!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. There's this tradition in Drumcore to have like a rookie talent thing where you're on the bus on a way to a competition or something and the rookies all have to do some sort of performance. Some people do something like a magic trick or in the past they could have been sexual in nature. I was 19. This was 2008. We were on a bus on a way to a competition and two things happened. One, they wanted me to get up and do something and I refused. I was a shy kid. So in return, they had somebody do something to me. So this fifth year old man got naked.

it and gave me a lap dance on the bus. Excuse me? Wait, what? Like, fully nude? Fully nude. Oh, oh, oh my God. I'm so speechless and shocked. Okay.

I was 19. This is Sounds Like a Colt, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montel, and I'm an author. And I'm your co-host, Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and lifelong student of pop culture sociology. Every week on the show, we discuss a different zeitgeisty group or guru that puts the cults in culture, from Erwan to Elon Musk, to try and answer the big question.

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back, or get the fuck out. After all, cultish influence falls on a spectrum. these days. And not every culty seeming group is equally destructive. Sometimes you have your groups that look mainstream and fine, but are actually really predatory and abusive and us versus themy and justify the meansy and it's bad. And then sometimes you have groups that are very fringy seeming and ritualistic and odd, but are actually kind of net harmless. This show is

all about scrutinizing and poking a little bit of fun at the ways that we find meaning in 2025, including in places you might not think to look. Like a subculture built on precision, pageantry, unquestioned hierarchy, and the fantasy of flawless unity. The cult of bands thrives on high-step discipline, uniformed identity, and the intoxicating rhythm of collective belonging. Today, we're talking marching bands. One of our oldest and most consistent requests. And I got to tell you, in the early days when these band kids were like, do me, do me, do me. I was like, I don't know, you silly geese.

Is marching band really a cult? But then I started looking at those formations a little closer. And then more emails started coming in. And I started reading them. And oh boy, I'm so sorry it took up. this long because woof marching band is not as innocently dwebish as it seems and stick around because to get the full no holds bar no filtered tea on this cult we have a listener joining us today it's another interview a listener episode of sounds like a cult her name is chelsea m not to be

confused with chelsea and she has been involved with the cult marching band for over 20 years. She is a marching band instructor now. She grew up in the cult. Her parents and her grandparents grew up in the cult. It's a whole legacy. And you do not want to miss that conversation. So before we get there, Chelsea, do you have a relationship to marching band at all? Because I know we're both former theater kids, but like, yes. What do you make of band kids? So I am a third generation, HBCU graduate. My grandparents, both sets, went to Southern University, Baton Rouge, which is one of the most famous historically black institutions. Going to the school is like a rite of passage, even though I chose not to go,

because listen, I'm a rebel, okay? But I did go to an HPCU. But I grew up very closely adjacent to anything Southern University related. I bled blue and gold growing up. Some of my earliest memories was going to the Bayou Classic, which is an event that happened. once a year in New Orleans at the Superdome. It's Southern University versus Grambling State University. Now, obviously, it's about football. That's the main event. But the main main event is the Battle of the Bands, okay?

Oh, my God. The Battle of the Bands is the most talked about event of the weekend. It is electrifying. Yes. Southern has a nickname and they're called the human jukebox. And it's because they put on the most insane routines that relate to pop culture. Every time I would go to the Battle of the Bands, I would come home and then practice in front of my mom and grandma the drum majors who were the most lit characters on the field. And I would be doing backbends because I'm like, when I grow up, I'm going to be a drum major.

And then I went to college and my school didn't have a band, but I learned just how dedicated and culty that entire world of band life was. And I was like, yeah, I just wanted the back band. I just wanted the fame and to be able to do the back bin. For sure. You're like, I'm just going to dance in front of my grandparents in living room still. Thank you very much. That is fascinating.

I learned from our guests that there is a big difference between the southern culture of marching band and the more militaristic style of marching band that she grew up doing, which is loki scarier as far as I can tell. That sounds just incredibly like you said, electric and inspirational. I mean, I guess, yeah. I don't know, man. I was an orchestra kid. and that's a very different vibe. What instrument did you play?

I grew up playing the violin pretty seriously. Gang, gang. No, it was so, you know, you're very much seated. It does hurt your back. That's the main thing I remember. I was just like, I cannot do this anymore because I need a chiropractor. But I do remember in school at least, I detected a hardcore cultural difference between the orchestra kids and the band kids.

Because the band kids were like cool and the orchestra kids were so nerdy, like really studious and I don't know, whatever, string instruments, you know how it is. But I remember being profoundly moved by the experience of creating a swell of music with other people. And I can only imagine that if you're doing that with the most intense physical choreography, standing no less, surrounded by crowds of cheering fans after hours and hours and hours and months and months of rehearsal, if someone wanted to step in there and make those kids do some fucked up shit, they could. Because that's just how intensely bonded and dedicated you are. Yes, absolutely.

Oh my God, wait. Something else I want to mention about marching band is that it was actually top of mind recently because there was a very culty, haunting marching band scene in the latest season of Severance. Did you watch it? I didn't. Don't worry about it. But the listeners who saw it will remember there was like a moment in severance, which is about this very occulty workplace,

where this employee is rewarded for a certain job that he did with a marching band performance that like comes to the office. It's like very over the top and overwhelming and overstimulating and scary for a reward. But I watched a like after the episode thing that the show creators did. And they have this like wacky idea to bring a marching band in to this office because there is just something. First of all, watching a multi-piece marching band perform indoors is just too much. And like we'll create like cult disorientation in your brain. But also like there is something about the wholesome quality of marching band in contrast with the militarized

protocols and choreography that kind of, I think, paves the way for some of the more serious cult abuse that we're going to get into in this episode. There's something sort of uncanny about it. And that was represented in the scene in the show, any fucking way. So before we speak with our listener today, I wanted to talk a little bit about the history of marching bands. Marching bands aren't just school ensembles or halftime shows. They're ritualized spectacles of discipline and collective identity, originating centuries ago as military units designed to guide armies into battle and maintain morale. Modern marching bands retain echoes of that hierarchical lineage today in their uniforms, cadence, and drill formations. Marching band is such

Americana. It feels so embedded in our culture here that I never even stopped to think about its origins, I just thought like, oh, yeah, like, those are some tuba playing kids who just, like, love their school. Right. But it makes sense that it has its roots in the military. It's trying to get people fired the fuck up for their team, whether your team is the army or your school's football team. It's like a tuba-ass version of school spirit.

In the United States, marching vans evolved into cornerstones of school culture and community pride. As World War I veterans brought military-style music and marching drills into classrooms, bands became staples of high schools and colleges, representing a new kind of militarized school spirit. Organizations like bands of America now host national level competitions, drawing hundreds of thousands of spectators annually and transforming band shows into athletic, theatrical, and emotional experiences. Now marching band has developed. Now marching band has developed, into a whole culture for somewhat misfit kids who are willing to throw themselves into hours upon hours of rehearsals, carrying heavy instruments, participating in sometimes culty rituals,

which we'll learn about a little later, and traditions undergoing hazing and sometimes worse, all to belong with the other band kids. Okay, so before we get into our interview with today's guest, a listener, a devoted culty herself, Chelsea M. We want to give a little context by reading you part of the email that she sent us to pitch herself, if you will, as a guest on the show. Because when we read this, we were gripped. Chelsea says, I am a music educator who has been involved in it or teaching marching band since 2004. Marching band is super culty. Every band has traditions, much like a summer camp in your recent episode, that transcend time. When my older sister,

was in high school, the band tradition was to participate in the last rehearsal of the season in a swimsuit. This was at a public high school. Temperatures were often below freezing. This tradition existed for over 20 years until the band director retired. Wild. That's insane. Chelsea goes on to say, the real lore lies with Drum Corps, the quote, professional side of marching band with hundreds of thousands of travel expenses to attend and simply audition. On tour, you rehearse for 10 hours a day in the hot sun in places like Texas, which, baby, have you ever experienced to be in Texas and California and have several competitive performances a week? The route to your next rehearsal and performance site. The groups travel on a fleet of coach buses, which often serve as your sleeping

quarters when in route to your next rehearsal and performance site. Oh my god. I'm telling you, I don't know how people stick out this cult for the back pain alone. Yeah, no. I couldn't even do it. I couldn't even do orchestra. No. Mm-mm. Chelsea also says in her email that there's a long history in these groups of abuse, including sexual abuse among other hazing tactics. And we'll get into that in our conversation. She also says as a 19-year-old, I marched in an all-ages drum corps called BCA. That means I was surrounded by members who ranged in ages from 14 to 70, which is kind of weird to have peers when you're a young teenager who are like that much older than you. She also said before every performance or every day in DCI core,

every drum core showers to clean up. These showers are communal, meaning you are naked with all the other student members and staff members of your group of the same gender. The group would sleep in a school gymnasium, people would bring all their mattresses and sleeping bags, and we would all sleep in one room together. There's just like a lot of intimacy in this group and like opportunity for culty shit that I did not appreciate before we got this email and before we had our conversation.

So without further to delay culties, may we present our combo in the cult of marching bands with our dear listener, Miss Chelsea M. It's Tricksing Katte. You're from the Bald and the Beautiful. We have to talk to you about Audible. If you know anything about us, we are certified romanceopaths. Rose sniffing swoon lords. Soft-spoken sirens of sentiment. Devotees of drama-drenched desire.

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There are some things in common with the theater kid cult, but marching band is for sure its own beast with its own lore and we'll get into it. But first, could you introduce yourself and your relationship to marching band? And I guess what inspired you to want to come on and talk about it? My name is Chelsea McFarland. I'm a music teacher in New Jersey. I've been participating in or teaching marching band. for over 20 years now.

I've loved your podcast for a long time. And when I saw you put out the thing for marching band, I was so excited. Because I think I've actually sent you guys an email about it, suggesting it before, too. There's so much in marching band that's good. But there is, you know, kind of a dark underbelly of the activity. So I'm excited to talk about it. She's already setting it up. Okay.

I have to ask, and this has been at the top of my mind since we put this topic on our sounds like a cult, spreadsheet of subjects. What does it feel like to be on that field marching militaristically, like in unison, doing your choreo with this instrument that you've dedicated so much of your life to with your massive team? Like, what does it feel like in your body? Do you feel like you're really like living out your purpose? I must know and live vicariously through. Yeah, I mean, it's performance. So, you know, it feels the same as getting on a stage. It's a drive. It's a drive. It's a sense of accomplishment once it's done. It's knowing that you put in so many hours of work for this moment. And the nice thing about marching men is you get that moment several times over the season. You perform at every football game. You have competitions every week or two. You get so many opportunities to do the same thing again. So you get better every time. So you compare, oh, well, back in September when we played this part, I totally messed up. You know, I took a wrong step. I went the wrong way. I played the wrong note. But now, end of October, I nailed that spot and I am so proud of myself. There's a lot of personal growth that you feel

and do you almost feel like the fact that you're experiencing that in this large group makes it more profound? I can imagine that other people's successes would feel like my successes too. Oh yeah, of course. You know, if you have a soloist in your group and in rehearsal, they're like crack a note sometimes. And then at the performance they nail it, you feel like you nailed it too. There's no bench in marching band. Everybody is performing. the entire time. You know, you can't just sit out because you're having a bad day. You're in it no matter what. Totally. You have to work together and be proud of each other, too. Oh, community. Yeah. Yes. I live for that. Have you ever seen Drumline? Of course. How truthful is that movie in your experience?

So what I do is core style marching band and what drumline is is show style marching band, which is more popular in the South. You know, they march with their knees up to their eyeballs. The drum majors do flips. and stuff, you know, like it's a very different thing than what I did, which is more military style. I've never seen like a drumline battle like that before. I don't know if that really happens. I would say as a whole in my experience, it hasn't been accurate. But yeah, maybe it does. I don't know. In doing research for this, I didn't know your sector of drumming and the entire world versus my own like lived experience of being from the, because I'm from South. Louisiana. And that movie, I was never in the band, but that movie is like the quintessential

like experience. Yes, absolutely. It was crazy. But I didn't know how much that kind of like came into your world at all. Yeah, no, it's not the same. There are like totally different sects within the overall religion of marching band. Absolutely. Some of us worship a straight leg marching and some of us worship a high knee marching. Yes. So looking at the bigger picture of today's topic, do you think marching bands really cross the line into being cult-like? Or are they just intense but harmless community building? I think it really depends on the marching band itself.

You know, like your standard high school marching band is fair game. all A's just do it, you know? Once it gets into like really competitive marching band, that's where things get pretty dicey. There's a lot of traditions and secrets that happen there that can be dangerous. Okay. So let's get straight into it. Because you summarize some of those traditions and secrets in your email to us. We have heard from other listeners that marching bands have some, One might say haunting strange and fringe traditions. Could you share an example of one of the wildest ones that you've seen or experienced yourself just to give the culties a taste of the stakes here?

So personally, I marched with a all-ages drum corps when I was 19. There were people who were in their 50s and 60s, and there were kids who were younger than me. Most of us were in like the, I would say, 18 to 30 range, but it was everybody. And I was a rookie, so it was my first year ever doing drum corps at all. And there were a couple things that happened that year that definitely were dicey. So there's this tradition in drumcore to have like a rookie talent thing where you're on the bus on the way to a competition or something. And the rookies all have to do some sort of performance. Some people do something like a magic trick or in the past they could have been sexual in nature. So I was 19. This was 2008. You know,

know, before the whole Me Too movement and all that stuff happened, we were on a bus on a way to a competition, and two things happened. One, they wanted me to get up and do something, and I refused. I was a shy kid. So in return, since I refused to do anything in front of everybody, they had somebody do something to me. So this 50-year-old man got naked and gave me a lap dance on the bus. Excuse me? Wait, what? Like fully nude? Fully nude. Oh, oh, my God. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. so speechless and shocked. Okay. I was 19. Let's back up. So you got into this as like an extracurricular activity. What was your relationship to music like up until this point? Like how did you find

your way to that moment where you're like, oh my God, I got into this marching band out of like a love of performing music and now there's like an old man nonconsensually grinding up on it. It's such a shocking juxtaposition of things. I know. So at this point, I was in college, and I was a music education major, and I was in my college marching band. And, you know, my high school marching band before that, and all of my experiences were super positive. And in college, my high school marching band was small. It was like 35 kids. My college marching band was 250. So a huge difference. But a lot of those people were like really, really intense in the marching band circuit and went on and marched with some of the best drum chorus

in the world. Some even went to like Japan on a contract and I had like Disney contracts and things like that. So, you know, they all talked about drumcore and you should do drumcore because it's the best experience ever. What does that mean? Drumcore as opposed to marching band. So marching band is typically associated with a school. So like a public high school or a college or whatever. Drumcore is usually independent and you have to pay to participate. They rehearse and compete over the summer, exclusively. And the biggest difference is that in drumcore, there's no woodwind instruments. So like no flute, no clarinet, no saxophone. It's just brass and percussion. Okay. And then you have your color guard with the flags and stuff. So I was a percussion major. So I'm a percussionist. I was in the

pit or the front ensemble. We played xylophone type instruments in the front of the marching band. So I wanted to get more experience because, you know, I was in school to be a music teacher and I figured I should have all of the experiences to prepare me for what I'm going to be doing after I graduate. Did you anticipate like coaching marching band in the future? Yeah. I mean, I started teaching marching band when I was still in college. Like I was teaching high schoolers. So you knew from a young age, because people do marching band, I'm sure, for all different reasons. Like the same reasons why anyone gets into like theater or performing of any kind. But do you think it's common for people who get into it, to want to continue it in some way, whatever that looks like after

they graduate from high school just because of how much it meant to them and how much time they put in? I think it is fairly common, but I would say it's less than 50% of kids who do high school marching band. Okay. You know, like, you have to really, really be into it to seek it out after public school. I mean, if your college has it, you know, that's an easy in. But like, after that, it's really hard to do. Yeah. almost like cheerleading. It's your whole life growing up. And then once you graduate from college, there's kind of like nowhere to put that. And like a cult, that can feel like a total loss of identity after you're forced out, basically. Yeah. And like isolating in a way. Yeah.

You know, you're used to being surrounded by so many other people doing this activity. And then you don't do the activity and you have nobody around you anymore. Yes. Okay. So let's go back to talking about how some of these traditions paved the way for something a lot more sinister to take place, specifically your story. Yeah, I need to circle back to the naked man because I'm a little confused. Obviously, that is one of the clearest examples of hazing because oftentimes it's like this humiliation ritual to just, you know, pinpoint the newest people in the group. Why do you think these decades-old traditions stick around for so long? And are they really about team bonding or do they sometimes cross the line, obviously, into hazing?

So I think it continued for so long because nobody was stopping it. But recently, there's been a big push to stop those things, like within the last 15 years, I would say. So in all ages, Drum Corps, the traditions kind of lasted a little bit longer because it's harder to change. older brains. In DCI, you could only march until you're 21. So those situations, it's easier to make changes because kids can only be there for so long, and then they leave. So, I mean, not all of the traditions are bad. Some of them were really, really bad. I mean, my story is tame compared to some others, sexual favors. And there's a lot of opportunity, especially in DCI, where you're alone with a lot of people of similar or older age and little supervision.

Whoa. Okay. So what do you think about marching band fosters that kind of culture? Because as an outsider, I look at marching band and I see it as something so wholesome. But then, of course, considering its militaristic background, I suppose it makes sense that there's a tradition of hierarchy and silencing and doing things for the honor of the group and for the purpose of discipline or whatever. But as someone who experienced it, what do you think makes marching band culty in that way? I think it's access. What do you mean? The staff are in power and have so much access to younger students, minors, or, you know, 21 and under. And that allows for a lot of unsupervised time that can allow them to take advantage of someone. I mean, And my own, this is another horrible story, my own ex-boyfriend that I dated in college, he got fired from his high school teaching job for hooking up with a student. He was like 26 or 27 at the time and she was 17. And it's because of that access. You know, marching band has long hours, even in the high school setting. You know, Saturdays, you have a competition. You might have a football game. You have rehearsal. Sometimes my Saturdays teaching marching band are 14 hours long. And that's time that I'm with the same people the whole time. So I would say access is.

the biggest thing. And you develop a closeness in those types of situations. It does remind me of exploitative, predatory, and sometimes abusive theater teachers, not only because you're hanging around at school for hours and hours and hours after everyone's already left and there's this level of worship that theater kids have for their director or theater teacher or whatever it is, but also it's like the vulnerability of being kind of a misfit, you know, like. Yeah. In regards to theater with acting, you have to be vulnerable. You know, if you're acting out a scene that requires that type of emotion, you don't do that with your random social studies teacher.

So true. Yeah, there's something especially vulnerable and at times culty about being really emotionally naked, I guess, or pursuing something really passionate and artistic under the guidance of a teacher or someone who has power over you in that way. Did you feel like the band is family mindset made it harder for people to speak up if something bad was happening? I would say probably in the past it did because when everybody's family, you'd want to keep your family secrets. So like even if, let's say, a victim went to somebody in power and made a statement of some sort, the person in power might be like, oh, I want to keep this in the family. You know, like you hear about that in other high control groups.

So, you know, for a long time, drumcores and marching bands would, like, silently or secretly reprimand and or fire the staff member in question. But until the whole George Hopkins scandal in 2018, like, that was the norm. You would just kind of sweep it under the rug. And, you know, rumors would spread and maybe they wouldn't get hired as often at other places, but they typically could still find a gig. But after the whole George Hopkins thing, DCI itself created a new code of conduct that specifically, like, outlawful. lines what they're supposed to do. And now I think drum cores are a lot more open because that was also right after the Me Too movement happened. So I think now is actually one of the safest times to be doing drum corps because now there are safeholds in place. We're breaking the fourth wall

for a second here, Coltis, just to get you caught up on the scandal that Chelsea's actually referencing with George Hopkins. In April 2018, George Hopkins, the longtime director of the elite cadets drum and bugle corps, resigned after nine, women accused him of sexual harassment and abuse. Incidents spanning nearly four decades involving individuals aged 16 to 37, three of whom were members of the Corps and five former staffers. Although Hopkins initially denied wrongdoing and was not criminally charged at the time, further reporting prompted scrutiny from Drum International and eventually led to legal consequences.

The Board of Youth Education and the Arts, which oversees the cadets, also resigned and was replaced. Hopkins later pleaded no contest to indecent assault in the 2020 case and received probation and a fine. It needles me in a very specific way, this category of cult, of everyday cult that is, where the people getting into it are so, so innocent. It's like the dorkiest thing. Exactly. Thank you. You said it on me. Oh, sweet. It's super dorky. It's not like someone signing up for a get-rich-quick scheme.

It's not like somebody attending one of these large group awareness trainings because they want to be transcendently wise. It's a kid who maybe was not the coolest in middle school who is okay dressing up in a funky little nutcracker outfit and like walking real silly around with their friends. Amanda, say what you want about the band kids. They were still cooler than the theater kids. Because let me tell you something. I know. I tried up for color guard. And they were like, no, no, absolutely not.

And then the theater kids were like, come on back. No, 100%. Well, because, and this is the thing, there's a system to marching band. Theater kids are just wilding out. Like, there's no structure. There's no nothing. A lot of downtime. So much downtime, literally.

They're not even, like, learning musical notes, like choir kids. They're just wilding out. But there's a lot of structure in marching band. There's a lot of protocols. There's a lot of choreography. There's a uniform. And listen, none of that is cheap. So the barrier to entry is a little bit higher.

Right. And speaking of that barrier. to entry. The people that join like DCI and all those groups, they spend like, for my understanding, thousands of dollars in fees in travel on top of long rehearsal days. How does that financial and physical barrier affect who can actually be a part of these groups? I mean, it's pay to play. You have to have the money in order to do it. You know, I never did DCI when I was younger because I didn't have the funds. And when I was of the age, it was a lot cheaper. You know, it was like $1,500.

And that was absurd to me as a 19, 20-year-old person who didn't have a job. But now it's like $5,000, $6,000. It's getting really difficult for people to do it. So you have to come from a really good background financially. Yeah, it almost reminds me of the cult of ballet. We did an episode on that a couple years ago. And obviously, like, the ballet vibe is a little different than marching men. A little more like posh.

I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I'm an equestrian too, so... Okay, stop ragged. You had your episode on the horse girl. Very expensive. Yes, okay, I'm getting it. Marching band has got a little sprinkle a theater kid, a little sprinkle a ballet girlie, a little sprinkle a horse girl, too.

Honestly, yes. Because like ballet, it's expensive and it's an intense skill. Like, you can't phone it in. You can't fake it. No, it seems like so arduous on your... your body. And actually speaking of the physical sacrifice, could you talk a little bit about, A, I'm curious about the toll that carrying these instruments and like marching, literally marching, takes. But then I'm also curious about the physical side where when you're traveling,

there are these kind of culty living conditions where members are like getting really intimate with each other, sharing buses, gym floors, even showers. What was like the injury side like? and then what was the kind of like traveling circus, like sharing intimate spaces with people like? So I would say that anybody on the field is at risk of injury at any time. You know, it's as simple as tripping because if you're walking in a line with a bunch of other people, if you trip, somebody else is going to pile on top of you. It has a domino effect or it can. So you have to be meticulous about where you're going on the field to avoid those types of situations. And the bigger your instrument is, the bigger the risk. You know, if you're holding a

tuba or a bass drum, you have a much higher chance of worse injury than somebody who's playing a piccolo. Yes. Oh my God. How did you get into percussion when you were young? Well, I started on piano when I was like five. My dad was in marching band too. I have two older sisters. We all played piano when we were younger. We all did marching band. Actually, if you go to the Wikipedia page for my dad's high school in Philadelphia as a Catholic school, there's a picture of the marching band, and it's from the year that he was in it. So he's like in that picture. You know, it's like a blurry black and white photo. But, yeah, I know.

It's a big deal. Not your dad, a marching band celebrity. Exactly. So, you know, it wasn't really a question of, am I going to do it? So I started as a flute player when I got to high school. Funny enough, freshman year of high school, I didn't do marching band because I thought I was cooler than that. Jokes on me.

Exactly. We all have to get humble. Because obviously, I am not too cool for marching band. I've made it my whole life. So in high school, my band director convinced me to switch to another instrument because there were so many flute players. You know, every girl wants to play the flute. And I was like mediocre at best. You know, like I was okay. You know, I could read music. I was hanging in there, but like I wasn't first chair. So I was a good option to switch. So he actually had me switch to bassoon. All right? That's like a humongous oboe, right? Yeah, it's about four feet tall. It's got a double read like an oboe. It's got like a goose neck thing. Cool. Okay. So we went flu. bassoon. Yeah. And then there were after-school programs. So in the fall, the after-school program was marching band. But after that in the winter, the after-school program that we had was percussion ensemble. So I joined it. I played the xylophone. And it turned out I was pretty good at it.

That's so cute. I love that instrument. So I was good at it. So then my band director convinced me, join the marching band, play the xylophone. You'll be great. And so it is. and then I decided to do it forever. It's such a vibe. To play an instrument that starts with an X. Right? How many people can say that? How many people can say that?

Not maybe. Not me. Yeah, okay. So then like with the intimacy stuff, obviously I think part of the co-ed sharing of spaces, sharing of buses, sharing of gym floors also puts young people, young women in occulty and compromised position. Could you talk about your experience with that with marching band? Like, how was that justified and what does it feel like to be doing that?

So those situations don't happen in your public high school marching band, but they do happen in college and in drum corps. Like, when I was in college, we went down to Washington, D.C., to no big deal, march in Obama's inauguration parade. And we, like, slept at a high school on the gym floor. And, you know, we were all adults in college. So everybody kind of just slept wherever they wanted to sleep. People brought air mattresses.

And I had a boyfriend at the time. So, of course, we shared an air mattress in this room full of 200 other people, including our staff members. They were also in the same room. That's like Love Island. Yeah, but way bigger. You're like, Love Island, small potatoes. Try marching band Island. You've seen American Pie, right?

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It's your host, Amanda here with a very exciting, something extra to tune into this week. my beloved husband and I were guests on the starter marriage podcast hosted by my friends Alison Raskin and John Blake's Lee. In this episode, I got more personal about my real life than I ever have, ever on a microphone. In fact, my husband Casey is here right now. Say hello. Hello, everyone. He's new to podcasting.

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Chelsea, I want to talk more about the power dynamics. within marching band. Like, how does this idea that everyone is equal and respected really play out, especially when directors and upperclassmen hold so much power? I think in, like, the public school, high school level, there's a pretty distinct barrier between staff members and students. Because to work in a public school, you have to have that clearance. You have to get fingerprinted.

You have to have so many college credits, et cetera, et cetera. But with upper classmen and lower classmen, definitely there can be some tension there. A lot of groups will enact a type of like big brother, little brother or big sister, little sister situation where they like pair a freshman with a senior. And that kind of helps bridge that gap because that senior's purpose is to like reach out to that freshman, you know, give them a gift before their first competition, like a bag of candy or something and just kind of support them. Yeah, that's one of the great things, you know, because there's. no bench because everybody has to do it. You want everybody to do well. You don't want anybody to fail. Along those lines, you know, in marching band, you'll have section leaders. So like one person in the trumpet section is going to be the trumpet section leader. And their job is to make sure that

everybody in their section knows what they're supposed to do and is doing it correctly. So in some ways, they can be a little intimidating because they're going to tell you if you're doing something incorrectly, they're going to try to fix it. But on the other hand, because they're still a student, they have to foster an environment where everybody feels comfortable and everybody feels safe. So I think school marching bands are really good at that. That's like one of the best things I think that we do. Okay. So I'd love if you could talk a little bit more about the secrecy that you mentioned within these groups,

the special rituals, the insider language. Could you give some examples of that? And what do you think those things accomplish in terms of building the culticulture of marching band? There's a lot of verbal bonding that happens. You have like a song that you sing before every performance or some groups have like a prayer that they do before every performance. And like everybody gets together. You're like in a huddle holding each other's shoulders. And you know, some people cry during these moments because they're so invested in the performance. I mean, that's huge bonding. That's very culty. In a good way. Yeah. It's not necessarily bad. There's other simpler ones, you know, like in high school on the way to a competition. our band director because we were so small we took like one bus he would stand up when we were like 15 minutes away from the show he'd be like 15 minutes and then one of the upper classmen would like start a chant my name is chelsea and you know what i got and then everybody knew the answer what do you got i got a band that's hotter than hot you know like we would do this whole chant and it would get passed around from person to person i live for well it's it's very churchy it's therapeutic and it really makes you feel part of something bigger than yourself? A hundred percent. That was even cult language. Something bigger than yourself. Yeah, I see the marching band as this like

living organism. Well, almost this like militaristic style one feels more like a machine than a living organism. But all the different parts working together create a real sense of unity that almost depersonalizes each individual member. And that doesn't necessarily have to be bad. Obviously, like, one of the reasons why cults are so popular in America is because we lack inherent senses of community so much across our whole nation. But when community rituals like that hit, they really tap into something so, so fucking human. And I don't think that has to be bad. It's just it can be exploited.

Yeah. I mean, anytime you're feeling strong feelings about something that you've said a million times that can lead you to question your own thoughts okay so speaking of questioning your own thoughts when those deeply human drives and these sort of like more wholesome beautiful experiences are exploited such that sexual abuse happens how do these organizations handle those incidents are their systems in place now you said things are better but how do you like report that kind of abuse. So I was actually looking on the DCI website earlier, and they now have a whistleblower form that you could submit anonymously to report something. DCI has a fairly strict code of conduct

regarding that kind of thing. So if DCI as an organization finds out that something happened with a staff member or a volunteer or whatever, they're going to force that drum corps to get rid of that person. And now post George Hopkins and me too, drumcores are much more open about why that person is gone. It used to kind of be like, oh, that person's gone, but like, don't worry about it. We don't need to know why they're just gone. We're moving in another direction. We found somebody else. So I think now there's a lot more transparency there, which is good. Yes. I'm not sure how much support there is for the victim per se. We're not like providing counseling like you would in Love Island. You know, like,

Like, if they're in school, they could go to like a school counselor, but otherwise, it's not like they have a therapist on staff or anything like that. That makes me think, like, if you're benefiting from cultish influence, which a lot of the groups that we discuss on the show obviously are, all of them are, the more intense that cultish influence gets, even if it's for good, even if it's for bonding and la la la, la, there needs to be an equal and opposite net to catch members when someone flips it for ill. If people are this passionate and this vulnerable and this young and whatever, you have to just assume as a preventative measure that at some point it's going to go badly and there needs to be

some kind of system in place for someone to step in and be like, I know how much this group means to you, and it means a lot to all of us, and we're so sorry this happened, and we're going to help you fix it or heal from this so that your whole experience in this group is not tarnished. Yeah, I'm not sure how much of that is happening yet. Well, hopefully this episode can be a catalyst for change, honey. So, Chelsea, we've talked a lot about the darker parts of the culture that is marching band, but you've said there are real positive. obviously, or you wouldn't be still teaching to this day. So what makes marching band such a safe space and a welcoming space for people who might feel like outsiders elsewhere? So, I mean,

as we said before, marching band is for the dorks. You know, like we're the weirdos. We don't really have another spot, but we get to be weird together. You know, like, let's all move our foot in this exact same way and it's going to be really cool. It's like a weird thing to do. So, I mean, there's so many positives to being a musician in general, but specifically in marching band, it becomes even more community-based, I would say. You're building your own personal physical strength by moving around and making sure that you can control your body. It takes a lot of core strength to do some of those moves. If you've ever tried yoga, you know, how hard it is to stand on one foot for a prolonged period of time. You know, and then to do that while playing a trumpet or a clarinet or whatever is even

harder because you need core strength to play your instrument too. It develops your commitment. You have to be there. Everybody's there all the time. You need a ton of teamwork skills. You need to be able to persevere through uncomfortable situations. Sometimes you're doing a section of a show 30 times in a row during rehearsal and it might get a little uncomfortable, but you have to push through. And just like an athlete would. There's so much attention to detail, like details you've never even considered, like the tiniest little muscle movements and just awareness of your body in general, there's so much that you have to think about for that. You know, and then you also get all the benefits of just being part of a group and, you know, working together for a common goal. It can really build a lot of

character. I feel like a marching band kid would make like a great employee, put it on your resume. People aren't like looking out for this enough. Absolutely. Yes. Years ago, right after college, I was applying for little jobs. And I got a call from a recruiter, and we ended up talking about Marching Man because we marched in the same drum corps. And so she was like, okay, here's your interview time. It's like a lifelong sisterhood. Yeah. I was going to ask from all the skills that you've developed in marching band, because you listed

some really good things. Obviously, it manifests itself in your life because you still teach music. But how do you say those skills learned in marching band could transmute in. everyday life. For better and for worse, honestly. You know, that attention to detail can help you be so much more precise in your career. If you're working with a lot of data or things like that, like you're not going to let things fall through the cracks because you know that things need to be perfect. Because in music, if you're not perfect, you're wrong. You know, it's not like, oh, you almost did it. Yeah, yeah. You're flat. You're sharp. You're wrong. Yeah. Almost doesn't

count. So, I mean, all of them transmit into all areas of your life. There's a reason that a lot of musicians, band kids, orchestra kids, whatever, also tend to be in AP classes. That's right. Josh Kemp knows how to Humble Brad, okay? Honestly, I was not because I was a lazy student, but I'm just saying, it does happen a lot. So obviously, school culture has shifted a lot post-pandemic lockdown? Are people still getting into marching band as much as they used to? There was definitely a big lull. That year that we shut down, you know, the fall of 2020, marching band didn't really exist in the same way. The school that I was working with, they were only allowed to practice for one hour at a time, outdoors, 12 feet apart from each other.

And like, that was it. We're like, we're used to, you know, several hours, multiple times a week. you know it was a whole big thing so there is definitely a drop right after especially because kids just weren't used to being out and about anymore you know when you're in those critical like middle school years if you're stuck in your room for a long time it's difficult to go back out there and be social be dorky in public yeah like you're used to being in your own room and doing your dorky stuff alone you know how they say that like gen z is more afraid of being cringe than millennia. I'm now thinking that like COVID probably had something to do with that. Definitely. Everything can be recorded now. Right. Everything can be recorded. And also like if so many of your formative years were spent by yourself, you weren't

necessarily inoculated against the coming of age awkwardness that ordinarily you have to experience. And that gets you used to being cringe. And like, wow, nothing's going to make you accept the cringe like being a marching band. I say that with a love. Yeah. Yeah. We have fancy hats. We call them Shaco's. Okay. I'm so glad I know that. I'm really dorky. Shako. All right. We got one more question. Then we're going to play a game.

The last question is if you could wave a magic wand and change the culture of marching band while keeping the best parts. What is one thing that you would change? I think the competitive nature can be taken way too far. And then it becomes that pay-to-play situation. I mean, these top world-class drum cores are spending millions and millions of dollars every year to put on their show. And it's because they're competing against each other. You know, I want to have bigger props. I want to have better sound technology. I want to do all these things better than everybody else so I can win. And I think that's one of the biggest detriments.

You know, like, of course, competition is great for bettering yourself. But there comes a point where it gets to be too much. So I think there needs to be some sort of cap on. what's allowed and what's not, and to make it more accessible because, you know, so many kids don't have access to something like that. You know, their school doesn't have access to that type of money. You know it's bad when late stage capitalism is even infecting marching band. It's nothing sacred. It's crazy. Like, I work at a fairly affluent school, and our biggest thing that we're trying to push for right now is buying our own semi-truck for our equipment.

Oh, wow. Wow. That's not surprising. Very. That's definitely very right. Right now we rents, you know, like Penske trucks every weekend. So like those top bands have their own semi-trucks. So we were mentioning the phrase cringe earlier. We are now going to invite you to play a game called culty or just cringe. This is how you play. We're going to read you a list of little,

quotes and anecdotes that were submitted by other listeners who emailed in to be a part of this episode. Thank you all so much for sharing your marching band stories. And you are going to lovingly classify each one as culty or just cringe. Okay, ready. I'll start us off. Liz says, we have secrets that no one is allowed to know, including phrases, rituals, candidates and letters once you become a brother slash sister. Is that culty or is it cringe? Definitely culty.

Agree, I can't even imagine. What does this mean? Letters. You could probably get like beads or something. Beads are a big thing. You get like a necklace and like every year you add a bead. That's a thing in a lot of marching out. Oh, okay. Copy that. It's giving rave candy if anyone tuned into that episode.

The next anecdote comes from Brit. It says, my college marching band had 400 plus members, but only 200-ish marched in games every week. So each week, you had to audition for a spot, not so fondly known as the challenge. Coulty or just cringe? I think I would say culty. It's not really cringy. It's just, you know, you're competing for your space. You want to appease the cult leaders.

So, yeah, I would say Culte. I know, why couldn't they just accept the exact number of players they need? Instead, they create this, like, chaos and competition. Why? Because it makes you want to be better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's probably one of those, like, Big Ten schools. That's probably how they function.

Because they learn new marching band shows for every football game. Oh, my God, like the dance moms, girls. Oh, my God. Yeah. So, like, every week they're learning a whole new show. Oh, no. That doesn't seem necessary. So, Sondja says, they would haze new kids by beating them with a tuba mouthpiece in a sock.

Is that cultier? Is it cringy? Sounds illegal? Definitely culty. Physical violence? That's an immediate cease, desist. Don't do that. Next one.

Jessica says the sayings we repeated, included pain is just weakness leaving your body when standing at attention for minutes at a time or yelling left like we were in the military, etc.

I would say cringe on that. Okay. Just part of the game. It's weird, but we do it. The silliness. I love it. Do the call and response thing again. I want to do it. What was it? It rhymed with hot and got or something. Yeah. My name is Chelsea and you know what I got? What you got? I got a band that's hotter than hot. How hot is hot? How hot is hot? Batman and Superman? Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Can't do it like my band can. And then we say, pick up the the beat and we point to somebody else and they have to do it. What of who? Yeah.

Cringe. It's cringe. Crenge. Crenge. For sure. For sure. Bethany says, my marching band literally made black t-shirts my senior year with the word cult on the bat.

That's it. That's all the context. Yeah. Okay. Cringe. Honestly, it's just, ironically, when you try too hard to be a cult, it ends up being just cringe. Yeah. That's just weird.

Nick says, absolutely insane schedules. I'm talking about regular 7.30 a.m. to 8 p.m. days for the kids before school even starts, not including Friday night games and all-day Saturday competitions. Cultier are just crazy. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty culty, I would say. That's a major amount of commitment for a teenager. Yeah. How are you supposed to orient yourself around an identity outside of marching band when it takes up this much of your life? In the fall, you can't.

Another Chelsea says, I saw the blisters on my palms from using four mallet technique as a badge of honor. Cringe. What does this mean? I can understand that. What does that mean? Let me show you. So when you play a mallet instrument, normally, you know, you're used to doing this.

You have one mallet in each hand. But there's techniques where you can hold two mallets in one hand. Oh, yeah, I've seen that. And in, yeah, in one of the techniques, the mallet touches the palm of your hand. And if you don't have perfect technique, it'll develop a blister. I've thought it a million times. We call it a stigmata, like Jesus. Whoa.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Because that's how meaningful it is. Yeah. That's the sacrifice. Yeah, it's a badge of honor. Like, you've worked really hard. Oh, it's like literally.

A gnarly bump on your middle finger. Oh, my God, it's like proof of your loyalty. Yes. This is hard core. It is. Okay. Mike says, on the bus, the veteran council, in scare quotes, rode in the back. Rookies rode near the front.

And we as rookies were given jobs. There were all kinds. Garbage boy, shuttlecock, and my job flash the wonder boy. To activate us in our job personas, veterans, would yell our job names and we would need to stand up while the bus was moving in our job personas and do what the veterans wanted. For our rookie hazing ritual, we were made to strip naked and put on an adult diaper. In the back of the bus, we had to have our backs to the veterans so that they could pour whatever they wanted into the back of our diapers,

as this signified our rookie role as being prone to shitting our pants. Then, when they were finished with filling our diapers, we were dismissed to go back to our seats to sit in our mess. We were allowed to get cleaned up later at a truck stop bathroom. We also did other jobs, like loading the luggage shit to the bus bays and cleaning the inside of the bus, and veterans were exempt from these jobs as they had paid their dues. We slept either on the bus or on gymnasium floors at high schools in the towns where we performed. Coulty or just. That is culty as fuck.

I have no words. That is absurd. For marching band. I fear I'm not, I'm not strong enough for this cold. Well, see, that's why you get involved. because it helps develop your strength. You know what, you're right. You're right.

Chelsea, who would we be? Chelsea C, who would we be had we the training of Chelsea M? Exactly. I don't even know, Elon Musk. Okay, our last one. Ella says she was initiated by cleaning up the grossest mess in the parking lot with piles of shaving cream, condoms, old food, and living. literally other people's garbage.

Then I switched schools my junior year and got hazed again, being forced to eat baby food, then playing Dizzy Bat. Of course, I threw up and got yelled at by the color guard instructor, all the band vets, and other newbies. I started to cry, and they threatened to kick me out for crying. I'm going to say both because, I mean, it's definitely culty behavior, but it's also cringy that the upperclassmen of this dorky cult think that they have that kind of power.

So astute. Very well. Like you're not that cool. You're just in marching band. Oh, okay. Well, this is culty too. Is that like a lot of serious cult leaders from history were not that cool. And that was part of their sense of entitlement.

They were like, I was supposed to be cooler. So now I have to assert undue power over people to make up for how cool I'm not. There's definitely some of that. Wow. Okay. Yeah. My favorite thing about the hate. is that they never know that they are actually the ones with the most power. Because reading this,

and it says, kick me out for crying, they threatened to kick me out for crying. But really, in reality, all she had to do was blow that little whistle. And, oh, honey, this whole thing is tumbling down. So true. So it's the idea that they have all this power, but they really don't. You're the one with the power. Totally. And that's true. Well, the. The cult spectrum determines exactly how true that is, right? Exactly, yeah, yeah. Ooh, that's fascinating. Amazing.

Chelsea M. Thank you so much for spilling your guts to sounds like a cult about the cult of marching band. I know. If folks want to keep up with you, would you want that? And where can they do that? Not really? Yeah, cool. Amazing.

Keep your peace. Yeah, I'm a public school teacher, so I'd rather not have the extra attention. Yeah. Leave her alone. All my socials are private. I'm sorry. You just have to look for another weirdo. Is it working?

And there are plenty. I have no doubt. Amazing. All right. Chelsea C. Out of our three equal categories. Live your life. Watch her back.

Get the fuck out. Which cult category do you think marching band falls into? I'm going to say watch your back. Yeah. Because I famously am not one to yuck anyone's yum. However, to what you were saying earlier, there is so much room at having such a large gap in ages that participate in this drum core. There's some room for some suss behavior to take place. For sure.

And it does sound like it's getting. better, but people don't stop doing things just because they're illegal. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. There's still a precedent for this, and that is just so sad and spooky. I also think it's a literal watcher back again, because the icy hots that I would be going through, walking down the field with a tuba. This episode got so much darker than I thought it would. So I hope everybody takes a cold shower after this by yourself or with a romantic partner in consensual arrangement. Jesus. Okay, it's time to go.

That's our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of The Podcabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Chelsea Charles. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles.

Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality, and Wordslet, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. Thanks as well to our Network Studio 71.

And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult pod, or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.