Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Pilates

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

Clear your schedule and roll out your mat… because this week Chelsea & Amanda and special guest Dr. Adam McAtee (@adammcateepilates) are diving into the meticulously controlled universe of Pilates. Originally developed by Joseph Pilates as a method to restore strength and vitality, the practice has since expanded into a worldwide fitness powerhouse known for its unmistakable studio culture. Why does Pilates inspire such fierce loyalty? And at what point does commitment start to resemble belief? Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles, @imanharirikia.  Come see Sounds Like A Cult LIVE at The Bell House in New York on April 21st! Tickets at amandamontell.com/events Thank you to our sponsors! To save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain Head to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.squarespace.com/CULT⁠⁠⁠ Join the loyalty program for renters at ⁠https://joinbilt.com/cult Head to https://factormeals.com/cult50off and use code cult50off to get 50 percent off and free breakfast for a year.  To learn more about how to support Minnesota’s immigrant communities, check out this MSP Mag article, which shares several ways to offer help or find support. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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artists, whoever you are, to stand out and succeed online. I've been a Squarespace user for a long time. You should really check us out at Sounds Like a Colt.com. Squarespace's features are bar none. They've got their design intelligence to help you build the website of your dreams. Squarespace payments is also truly the easiest way to manage all your payments in one place if you're trying to sell things online. And these days, if you're trying to do good in the world, you can also set up a fundraiser easily on Squarespace. Head to Squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, check out Squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. I really had no idea there was like quite this level of infighting and controversy within the Pilates world. It's kind of nuts. can't help but to draw parallels with modern gynecology and how our entire childbirth and gynecology is built on a science that they use slaves to build the science and the research that we still use today. They're still teaching the same shit that they were 10 years ago, which was also wrong 10 years ago. This is Sounds Like a Colt, a show about the modern day cults we all

follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel and I'm an author. And I'm your co-host, Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and lifelong student of pop culture sociology. Every week on the show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist, from sleepaway camp to in-cells to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? I live your life, watch your back, or I get the fuck out. After all, cult Influence falls along a continuum these days.

And the word cult can mean something different depending on the context. Sometimes we use it in a cheeky way, and sometimes it gets a little bit more serious than that. But the point is, in 2026, cultish influence doesn't always show up in the places you might think to look. This show is all about both soberly scrutinizing the silly little ways in which humans attempt to find meaning and connection and belonging in the 21st century, and also poking about bit of fun at the absurdity along the way. Today, we're diving into a movement built on the fantasy of a perfectly optimized body and mind,

a practice adored for its precision, ritual, and the promise of transformation. These aren't just fitness fans or wellness enthusiasts. They're devotees of an aesthetic and a philosophy, people who speak in a secret language of neutral spine, imprint, and just one moment. more inch. You've seen them everywhere in matching sets on Instagram, in studios with reformers lined up like pews, preaching core control and spinal alignment as the path to a better self. Today, we're talking about the world of Pilates.

Oh, my God. My face, if you listeners could see actually, and you can if you subscribe on YouTube, I am like jaw on the floor. First of all, reformers lined up like pews, bars, Chelsea. Come on. Yeah. You already know. But my jaw has been dropped because I feel so called out.

I don't think I've ever been so hardcore a part of a cult that we've scrutinized on the show before the way that I'm a part of Pilates. Are you a Pilates, Girlie, Chelsea, at all? Yes. Okay. So this is a thing. I just want to say this up front. So obviously, you neither.

I'm not coming at Pilates as an outsider. I'm actually deeply familiar with the world of Pilates. I've tried every iteration, Matt Pilates, hot Matt Pilates, traditional reformer, all the modern offshoots, Solid Core, Legree, which you already know there's a discourse online happening currently if, like, all the offshoots like Legree and Solid Core, are even Pilates anyway. The infighting is astonishing to me and evidence of this being cultier than I even knew, but yes. I would say that I genuinely enjoy these classes, but I do recognize a way that it's probably far removed from how it was originally intended, where obviously, you know, classes cost anywhere

between $40 to $50 per session if you don't have class pass. Yeah, I do class pass, but yes, it's insane. There's one place in my neighborhood where I actually ran into a culty once, hello, And I was like so embarrassed because I was struggling so hardcore through this class. But a membership there per month is like, I swear to God, like $400. I'm not paying a car note to be a part of a fitness group. No. And I'm really interested to get into our discussion today, especially with our guest, because

I'll put it this way. I did Pilates for a spell like once a week when I was 25 at this very chill studio at the neighborhood that I was living in at the time. And part of the reason why I liked it was because. it didn't feel like SoulCycle. It was not trying to cosplay church. People were not worshipping the instructors. Like, oh my God, it's Derek's class.

Like, they were not spewing faux-spirational mantras with the nightclub-esque lighting, like, trying to get people to cry. Like, that stuff gives me the ick. And it also wasn't like CrossFit where people were glamorizing injury and shaming people for not showing up. And I understand that not every CrossFit bucks is like that. As far as I know, there is no one leader. founder living today who's like spreading the gospel of Pilates the way that the now canceled

Greg Glassman, the founder of CrossFit, was kind of like the figurehead. So all of that was a green flag to me and I was like, oh, this is just a get in, get out kind of fitness endeavor for me. But ultimately I did stop going because at the end of the day, like it is better for business to create that sense of community, to create that culty sense of belonging at a fitness studio, which for a lot of secular people is that spiritual third space. Now, last year, I got back into the cult of Pilates in like such a more devoted way. And I'm going to be called out so hard on this episode because last year I started doing Legree, which for those who don't know, is a Pilates inspired high intensity workout on a machine called a megaformer. So

if you think that reformer machine already looks like a medieval torture device, a megafaumer is like Darth torture. I had to go to Pilates, regular Pilates for like six months just to even feel confident enough to go into that studio where, and this is how I think Pilates is culty in a way that's different from the churchy vibes of SoulCy or the like beast mode army vibes of CrossFit. It is this unspoken aesthetic cult that I find is more subtle. I feel like when you go to a more on the nose cult fitness studio, everyone is like so fucking nice to you right out of the gate. And the second you're nice to me for no reason without even knowing me, I'm just like,

you're trying to get me to join a cult like fuck off. But when a bunch of like hot girls are not that friendly and saying things at the front of class like, okay ladies, now we're going to get into our jumping twisted mega reverse scrambled snake. And I don't know what the fuck is going on and I feel shame. And I feel like I want to be in the know, but I also feel resentful of that desire. I'm just like, okay, now I'm in. There is nothing like that feeling. It's almost like a sorority, but it's packaged differently.

and that culty thought of like, I'm not friends with anyone here, even though I've been going for nine months. But if I come long enough, I will finally understand what they're saying and I will finally look like them. That culty promise is what keeps me in. And I know it's problematic, but I'm ready to get unpacked. No, it is problematic. But listen, I'm walking into the fire with you. You are not alone. I mean, how do you feel being in a Pilates studio?

Does it feel culty to you? I would say that I really prefer extremely feminine Pilate Studios. I don't know if you've ever been to Cary's in WeHo, but everything is pink. And I would say I know that it's because I show up with a lot of masculine energy, especially at work. And when I go into Cairies, I just feel like just a girl doing a hard thing with other girls. Wait, that's such a good point. And I was also thinking this too is that a lot of cult fitness studios, there's like a lot of men. Even in SoulCycle, like some of the most beloved instructors are men.

And that's why there have been like sex scandals, allegedly, within SoulCycle. Not to say that women can't have sex scandals. And honestly, I'm going through my own little sex scandal with regard to Pilates right now. You know what I'm talking about. I'm not ready to share on the pod. So, however, I agree with you that there is something that on its face feels really safe and really accepting about being in a feminine space. But on the flip side, it low-key also feels like the wing in there sometimes.

You remember the wing? Absolutely. I did not have a membership, but I- No, me neither. I went as a guest with a friend and I was like, oh, no, ma'am. No, and by that I mean there is this very sort of like performatively feminist, exclusive girl boss vibe, that at the end of the day you have to be like,

there's something sinister. here. Like this can't just be this female utopia. Right. I agree. Okay. Well, wow, I'm getting a lot off my chest already. Sorry, thank you for letting me just pop off. But I feel like we should maybe, for those who are not as deep in, give a little bit of background and a history of Pilates because it's fascinating. Palates began in the early 1900s with Joseph Pilates, a German performer boxer and self-taught anatomists who believed modern life was ruining people's posture, breath, and overall vitality. During World War I, while interned in a camp, he started experimenting with makeshift rehabilitation equipment and using bedsprings, the earliest inspiration for today's

reformers. After immigrating to New York in the 1920s, Joseph opened his first studio near the NYC Ballet, where dancers became his earliest and most devoted followers. Okay, so this origin story about like Pilates emerging as a rehabilitation exercise for soldiers during World War I is such a part of Pilates lore because I do feel like some men outsiders kind of discount Pilates as a bit of like a girly pop workout. And I mean, I've gotten Casey to go with me many times. But the way that I got him in was like, oh, well, it started in World War I. Like, it's so legit.

That's actually what I was kind of hinting at earlier is that it is like regarded as a workout for women. And I think it's having a little shift because of don't let me misspeak. But there was an NFL team that started doing Pilates and they were putting it all over their social media. And then I ended up going to a solid court class and I've been visiting a few times. And then one day I show up and there are these very, very hot, attractive, six, five men that were in the WeHo location. And they were Merkin in the class too.

And I was like, yo, this workout is low key for everyone. And that's exactly how I got Scotty to go. Because I was like, yo, I saw some NFL players. It so reminds me of that Samantha Jones quote from Sex in the City where she's talking about how celebrities build cult followings. and she's referring to, like, her boyfriend at the time, Smith Jarrett. But she's like, first you got to get the gays, then the girls, then everybody. And whatever. Sometimes it's the girls and the gays and then everybody.

But like, I feel like that is Pilates and so much fandom in general. Absolutely. So jumping back in. Following his death in 1967, his students carried the work forward, splintering into lineages that still debate what counts as real Pilates. In 1996, court ruling declared that Pilates, couldn't be trademarked, sparking a global boom of studios, certifications, and interpretations. What started as a rehabilitation technique in an internment camp has evolved into a multi-billion

dollar fitness movement. Oh, that's fascinating. Wow. Okay. There are so many different sects and denominations of Pilates. Honestly, this is giving slightly live your life because when there's no, like, centralized, controlling organization. I don't know. It can go both ways. To that same point, what I will say is, okay, this is just a little aside tidbit. Sometimes I have dreams of like quitting TV, retiring from

the world of TV, and just opening a humble little lugery studio. I don't know, that plays clubby music and does all the things. And sometimes I go on these like training websites to see how much they are. If you could guess, how much would you say is the going price of like a training certification for Ligree? Ooh. Is it like 6K? Close. It's five. Well, what I've seen has been around like 45 to 5. And my whole thing is that is so much money for something that is not even a, like it's, who is to decide who gives you your certification? And just to say what? It's so elitist and exclusionary, just overall. The first people to make. Pilates popular where like white New York City ballerinas, they set the standard for who is welcome

at Pilates. And I do get the feeling in there that if you don't portray class and wealth and thinness and there is a lot of talk in the world of Pilates about like looking toned, not looking bulky. Yes. And, you know, what you wear does feel like an unspoken requirement. I laugh often at how something so simplistic and stupid as matching sets because that's so dumb. But it's like you have to show up and play the part of the world that you're in. And that's actually exactly what I wanted to talk about next. The barrier to entry in the world of Pilates. In the early 2000s, especially through the 2010s, Pilates quietly developed one of the highest

barriers to entry in mainstream fitness, not through exclusivity on paper, but through price, location, and cultural signaling. Over time, this produced a subtle, us versus them mentality, which culties, you already know, we talk about this often. This dynamic mirrors a familiar cult structure. Exclusivity breeds legitimacy. The harder something is to access financially, socially, or intellectually, the more meaningful membership fields. Intellectually, meaning the $5,000 certifications from, you know who. Who? And the insider language that is so inscrutable. I'm just like, just describe what the moves are.

Like, do not tell me we're doing a French twisted mermaid egg. I'm like, what the fuck is a mermaid egg? Oh my God. And what makes this French? It's like when I go to physical therapy because I fucked up my back, they're like, okay, now you're going to do monster walks. And they show you. And it's like, oh my God, yeah, like monster walk that is so descriptive.

Or they're like, now you're going to do a fire hydrant. And they show you a move that looks like a dog peeing on a fire. hydrant, and you're like, okay, that is so clear. But in Pilates, I do get this feeling that when I don't understand the names of the moves, I feel like I'm being trolled, I feel like I'm being hazed, and I feel like I'm being forced to look around and find that one girl, that one gorgeous, mean-looking girl who knows what everything means so that I know I'm lower down on this hierarchy. Yes. Wait, okay, I just want to give an aside for my first reformer class that I went to. Yeah.

So I went to this class. I was super nervous. I had my little matching set on and I get there and I kind of wanted to be tucked away so that I'm not like in the front looking like a fool like a little baby deer. And I'm in the beginner's class, mind you. So the girl comes over, the instructor midway through the class. She pulls down her mic, covers it up and she's like, you shouldn't come to this class anymore. And she was so stern and I was like, okay.

And she was like, you're far more advanced than you think you are. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So I'm like, for the rest of the class, I'm like, yes, popping my shit, doing my, you know, scrambled egg, whatever you said. And then, so the next time I'm like, okay, she said I was far more advanced. I booked the advanced class. See, that's what I always get too big for my britches. No, she set you up for failure. That was fucked up because she made you feel special and chosen.

I would have ripped off all my clothes and run outside and been like, I have reached enlightenment. To have a mean Pilates instructor tell you that you're advanced, girl, in the advanced class, when I tell you, I was doing those moves shaking like a stripper. And that mean, that mean instructor was looking at. me like, bitch, why did you come to this? Oh no, we should have gone intermediate. We skipped a few steps.

I don't know why I jumped. Anyway, all that to say, she motivated me. I was chosen. She built you about to break you down. But that is the type of hazing. That is the type of like sorority shit that keeps me wanting to like prove myself and win them over. Exactly.

It's not as culty as the churchy soul cycle shit. on its face. But there is a cult for everyone, as we say on the show all the time. And that type of like, I don't need you, you suck. Reverse psychology. It's for me.

It's for me too. It's for me too. Jumping back in. So in an article in the online magazine, Marie Claire, titled, It's the hottest workout of the year, Pilates. The author states that, quote, studies show that fitness imagery

disproportionately excludes larger bodies, older women, and women of color. A 2020, report found that 37% of young women felt social media decreased self-esteem and made them too self-conscious to try new forms of exercise. When a practice like Pilates becomes entwined with a narrow aesthetic ideal, it risks alienating exactly the groups it could benefit the most, end quote. One of the instructors quoted in the article stated that, quote, different bodies, ages, and races are rarely advertised in marketing. Pilates is for everyone.

Yet the image being sold is young, thin, white, and affluent. She then goes on to say, Pilates, especially reformer, should be more accessible and affordable. What we're seeing now is a far cry from what Joseph Pilates would have wanted. This wasn't Joseph's mission. Pilates was invented to heal people's bodies, minds, and spirits. Damn. It's so interesting because, you know how some say that the AI apocalypse

won't happen in that Hollywood block buster way where like a bunch of robots are going to like bang down our doors or set off an atomic bomb. It's going to be much more subtle where AI is going to like infiltrate our information systems and just turn all of humanity against each other by increasingly making them deeply, deeply confused. That's more like the cult of Pilates. And I'll explain what I mean. As far as I've been able to tell in my light sounds like a cult level research for this episode, there hasn't been the type of scandal in Pilates the way that there's been for, say, Bikram Yoga, where the founder was found to be a sexual predator, emotionally, physically, financially abusive. It's not even

like soul cycle where there have been sexual harassment allegations or CrossFit where people are getting these like life-threatening injuries because the workout romanticizes and encourages dangerous physical movements. It is a very. much more subtly dangerous mentality that perpetuates diet culture and low self-esteem among women. I mean, like, suicide rates are at an all-time high for young women on social media, many of whom probably have Pilates content in their algorithm, you know. It's just the cult mentality here and the cult mission and ideology is much, much more subtle than some of the cult fitness cabals that we've covered before. And that feels like pretty insane.

I don't know. That was deep a man. Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to get like super apocalyptic and like suicide on a Sunday. We're recording us on a Sunday morning. I'm so sorry. And I have like a sinus issue right now. And I didn't expect to go there. But like I guess we had. I felt the need. So cerebral. I am obsessed. Oh my God. Sorry. No. No. I. I a thousand percent agree. We talk about like the end verdict. It's like the kind of whole that kind of like slithers in and it's very, very unassuming. It reverse mega mermaids into your bloodstream and makes you want to die. Yeah. It is. It's death by a thousand two inch pulses is what it is. I hate you. Okay. Now, I think it's time to get into our guest interview because as deep into this cult as we are, there are people who go even deeper. And we're super curious to,

to hear what they have to say about it. And our guest is not only deep into Pilates, but like kind of assumes a bit of like, an all-knowing cult leader role, maybe a little bit. And we wanna know what the hell is going on there. So we're gonna be speaking with Dr. Adam McAtee. He goes by Adam McAtee, Pilates on Instagram. He purports to bring a more science-based approach to Pilates.

He brings his own like unique perspective and approach to this. this cult and yeah, we're eager to grill him on the ins and outs of this cult and his role in it. So stick around for after the break. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform that allows entrepreneurs, podcasters, artists, whoever you are, to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out your career or managing a growing brand. Squarespace makes it super easy to build a gorgeous website, to connect with your audience, and to sell things.

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Adam, thank you so much for joining this sounds like a cult podcast to talk about the cult of Pilates. Thank you for having me. First, need to get some context about your personal relationship to the world. of Pilates, Adam. Could you kind of like introduce yourself and your role in this world? Are you a skeptic? Are you a cult leader? Are you a follower? Tell us. Yeah, I'll let other people judge that, but I'll just be who I am in the process. For me, I've been teaching Pilates since 2009. So I think that's 16 years at the time of this recording. I have done multiple trainings from different perspectives, which has been really helpful to really understand the industry. But I've

also, one of the best things I ever did was to study movement that has nothing to do with Pilates and then bring that back into Pilates. So I went and I earned an exercise science degree, and I became a licensed physical therapist, which just allows me to really see movement for what it is, and then kind of detach from the lineages and the cult-like mindset that is very prevalent in all corners of Pilates. Wait, can you say more?

How would you describe that cult-like mindset? How does it show up? Well, it depends, right? It's like, well, what cold are you talking about? Are you talking about the physiotherapist-based Pilates that claims to be scientific, but they don't use science? Are you referring to the people who are really attached to the way Joseph Pilates taught Pilates, which is actually its own mindset because a lot of times their claims are actually not how Joseph taught.

It's just how they think Joseph taught. It's giving Christianity. What would Jesus do? It parallels religious mindset a lot in that you have to justify that Joe would approve of what you're doing, and then you're allowed to do it rather than just my clients knee her. I'm a physical therapist. So my mindset or authenticity is functioned. I work with older adults, 15 older. So the goals are just different. But with this, I'm more interested in like, what do I need to do to help my client's knee? It's not bending or it's hurting whatever it is. Or maybe they have a wedding. Like, what do I need to help them with? Rather than how can I use these selected exercises? And these are the only things I'm allowed to use to call it Pilates. Because if they need something outside of those exercises, I'm not allowed to do it because I don't know Mr. Plottis would approve. That's the cold. So there's like a dogma vibe.

Totally. I would rather like not do Pilates and help people than do Pilates and kind of help people. Can you talk more about how Pilates is culty on the instructor side of things? When I was first learning Pilates, I learned classical Pilates, which is from the perspective of dosa Pilates. And we were taught that this is the only kind of acceptable Pilates. And they would talk about the studios down the street as like, it would be like a solid core type Pilates.

And like that's not Pilates. It was really catty and snooty. I felt guilty to do it. any other kind of exercise based on what I learned there. Like if I was to say, I'm going to go do a CrossFit, it would be like, you know, I'm not saying like everywhere. It's like that. I can only speak from my own perspective.

But I think a lot of it is people have good intentions, but they're misguided. And so they're misguided by the educational systems. And so they're just trying to express what they learned at school. But it's like the courses need to change their narratives. It reminds me of like the chiropractic industry a tiny bit. What are your thoughts on the chiropractic industry? It's whack. We did an episode on the cult of chiropractors and we learned the mystical lore and the lack of empirical research and science. Do I want someone to crack the living shit out of my back? Obviously. Do I think chiropractic is like real medicine? Nor. That's a done rabbit hole. So Pilates has a very specific vocabulary. Neutral specific.

fine, imprint, opposition. How does this shared language create a sense of insiders versus outsiders type of vibe? Yeah, and that's a really good question because the terms you use are actually contemporary terms or not even classical terms. For example, we didn't use the term in print in classical plotty, but it still exists. We just use different names. So I live in the gray with all this. I just look at things anatomically and I'm like neutral just sounds like somewhere in the middle. and then imprint sounds like a little bit of lumbar flexion. Like, I don't use any of those terms, but it's one of those things that people will utilize as a weapon. And what is really teaching is teaching your clients that they're fragile,

that if they're not in imprint in an open chain, sorry if I'm getting too lingo, but if you're on your back and your legs are up, some core exercise, it's like the rule is you have to be an imprint because of this biomechanical reason, as if you're going to get hurt if you're not. And so when people utilize these narratives, such as you need to be an imprint, you need to be in neutral. They don't actually provide any research to support any of that. And the reason is either they don't know how to do it or it's because it doesn't exist or in many cases, just both. And so that's where I try to just do good in the industry and question those things because you could also just choose the one that feels better and then move on with your life. Get a good workout. The point being

is that a lot of times the language is like sacred in the sense that you're not really allowed to question it. And then I just throw shit in the air. I say, fuck it. I'm questioning it. But I'm going to ask good questions. It ruffles feathers in a helpful way, and not everyone likes that, and that's okay. What would you say are the consequences of ruffling those feathers? Because that's a clue in determining how much of a cult this really is. Are you allowed to ruffle feathers? You're allowed to do whatever you allow yourself to do, really.

The consequences are people on the internet who don't know you don't like you. That's really what it is. It's like, I'm sorry that Karen in Kansas doesn't like me anymore. So sorry to any Karen in Kansas. I didn't know. I wasn't talking to other Karen. It's a metaphor. But the point is really it's just your ego. And so what it does like what I've learned is a test like how much do you believe in what you're saying? And if you don't really believe in it, then it will ruffle your feathers because you won't feel very secure. Or if you piss off everybody in the conversation, then that's really good feedback because it's like, well, maybe you need to learn I communicate a little bit better. Meaning I've talked about similar concepts throughout the years. I've pissed off more people earlier in my career and I piss off less people later in my career. Just in the sense of you learn how to ask better questions or package a piece of content in a certain way that is more sophisticated, rather than just being like, I'm right, you're wrong. So actually, this makes me want to ask, can you talk about the relationship between Pilates and social media and like how apps like Instagram

and TikTok have contributed to Pilates becoming cultier in a way? Well, social media connects people, right? And so you just friend people who you like and think like you. So then it's like the whole world thinks this way. Like I use social media on a daily basis. It's an awesome tool. But you just have to understand that it is going to contribute to confirmation bias, which is the essence of a cult. Partially what social media can contribute is just connection to the industry.

And there's different perspectives. And a lot of times people get threatened by different perspectives. To me, it just shows like an insecurity and opportunities to learn that there's more ways to do Pilates and the way you know Pilates. And it's really interesting to watch people's reaction to that. Like, I have kettle balls underneath my reformer. And like that's been criticized as not Pilates. Like, you're not actually out there. Whoa. Wow. I don't give it. I don't give a shit. I just use them. But I mean, I have them there for a reason, too. It's a filter. Like, if that scares you, like, I'm not your guy. I really had no idea. There was like quite this level of infighting

and controversy within the Pilates world. It's kind of nuts. What are your perceptions of the Pilates industry? So many things. First thing is there is this idea that Pilates is gender specific, and that's what I see perpetuated online. Amanda and I talked about our experience how, like, on one side, it does feel like a safe space for women in a class, but it also feels a little exclusionary in a sense where I guess

men kind of feel like they can't benefit from the exercise. We talked a little bit about the barrier to entry and how it's extremely expensive for the common person. And originally, Joseph Pilates, that's not what he wanted. He wanted to be inclusionary instead of exclusionary. And I just think that kind of sucks. And that's how I perceive Pilates online. Yeah, we both do it.

But I do feel like there is an elitist vibe in there. And we were talking before. you jumped on about how the cult vibes of Pilates just manifest in a less explicitly churchy way so that can kind of mask any low-key toxicity that may or may not exist. But I love it. I'm just fascinated by how attached people get to these ideas, which I understand is like filtered down from the education systems, but hardcore Pilates industry folks must really like attach an identity to these schools of thought or else I don't think it would be this charge for them. Oh, absolutely, right? Like, who would you be if you found out what you learned

what's wrong? Wow, that pull quote could apply to every episode of the show. Anything. Anything. It's just like, like, that's not a threat to you as a person. And I think that's a massive thing. Like, that's why I advocate for Pilates instructors to just learn exercise because you don't actually learn exercise. You don't learn what strength actually is. You don't learn what cardiovascular activity actually is. You learn exercises. But you don't learn exercise. But you don't learn exercise. You don't learn. an exercise. Isn't that fucking weird? And that's why narratives are so easy to believe, because you don't have a foundation to question it. But if someone tells you like, oh, this is for strength and you know what strength actually means. And I don't know, it's like a stretch.

Like it makes no sense. That's not a strength exercise or the load. And by anyways, I'll go down the rabbit hole. But it's just like maybe we should have kettlebells underneath our fucking reformer because there aren't enough springs to actually buy a strength. Well, that actually leads me to my next question when speaking about like all the online discourse, breaking down the different lineages of Pilates from its original iteration. Your work actually technically seems to do another version of that, except through a more scientific lens. Could you kind of dig into what inspired you to take up this mantle? Yeah, I mean, it was really studying exercise science in school. And then me thinking I knew the answer because of my Pilates education and I was completely wrong and it really

inspired me to like really seek truths and then I noticed how I was more skilled, knowledgeable, and confident working with my clients and I started doing things that weren't in my training. But my clients were getting better. Science changes over the years. They're still teaching the same shit that they were 10 years ago, which was also wrong 10 years ago. So it inspired me that like there are people that want to learn and they're paying thousands of dollars. Plotty training is not cheap, like probably like nine grand or something. And then you learn shit that's not true and you have to unlearn it. And so for me, it's like, well, I want to help people. And so within that, how do you do that? Well, I noticed a need for science-based education because it doesn't exist.

Or it's really minimal. It's getting better. But whether it be physiotherapy-based Pilates, classical Pilates, or something in between, there's a massive hole. And people are claiming science, but it's not science. The provider research study that was done on dead pigs in there applying it to humans. It's fucking wild. That's the part that most reminds me of chiropractic. Yeah. Within my education with becoming a physical therapist and studying exercise science and having an extensive history in Pilates, I understand how to speak the language of Pilates and translate research to Pilates because sometimes people will just be a physical therapist and then they'll try to teach Pilates instructors, but you don't speak Pilates. You don't understand the Pilates problems. And then if you only

teach Pilates and you learn Pilates, then you don't really know the research. That's a skill, right? And so I'm like, okay, how can I blend these two together? And I used to teach a program for a great company in Australia, but the program was $10,000. That's continuing education. Wow. It actually is so weird because the entire time that you were talking, this isn't aside, but you were hinting on something that is so specific, talking about how, yes, a lot of these things are based on research, but antiquated research that needs to be updated. And I can't help but draw parallels with modern gynecology and how our entire like childbirth and gynecology is built on a science that they use slaves to build the science and the research that we still use today. And some of those teachings

are so problematic because there's just this idea that black women and women of color have higher pain receptors so they can experience higher levels of pain without actually feeling it. And that is all based on the research of so, so long ago. So you are touching on something that I definitely think, to your point, needs to be updated and talked about. I just want a citation. Can we just start with that? Because if you start with that, then like 80% of the claims fall flat on their face. And it's like, well, how did you learn that? And you got to step into that as an individual to be comfortable going into that, because that could be a threat to your identity if you learn neutral spine is the holy grail. And then you found out that like that's actually never been tested

on a human. It's kind of scary. Yeah, it really makes this whole thing seem more like a spirituality that can justify potentially really problematic things, including, yeah, I mean, the parallel with gynaecology, like there is a racism problem in Pilates, I think, from my own observations and from what I've read. So that feels like really pertinent. So kind of touching a little bit on the research aspect. Joseph Pilates has kind of like a godlike presence in this community and is said to have a strong philosophical belief about health, modern life, and physical discipline. Which of his ideas align with research and which ones do we just keep because they're a part of the lore of Pilates? Well, would you take medical advice from the 1950s? No. Me neither. Thank you. So, I mean,

there's a lot that's right. Like exercise is still good, but also Mr. Palli's got a lot of stuff wrong. Just like we're getting a lot of shit wrong today. If you question like what we're doing now in 50 years, there should be progress. Why are we doing the same thing? You should continue to learn and evolve. He referred to muscle fatigue as poison. He referred to exercise should be not so hard on the heart. So that's why Pilates matwork is in a semi-recumbent or a supine position like you're laying down. But that's the opposite. It's like how do you increase heart health? You fucking music. You do cardiovascular exercise. Like, you get your heart pumping. You can be 92 years old. And as long as all medical complications are medical history is fine, like, we can get your heart rate up. That's

actually what you're supposed to do. And you got to flat or out wrong. And then muscle and fatigue is exactly what you're supposed to do. You know what muscle fatigue feels like? It feels like burning. Imagine going to an exercise. You're not allowed to get your heart rate up and you're not allowed to feel muscles. So I know you're asking me like, what he got right? And I went to what he got wrong, And what he got, right, was the need to move the spine, the need to be aware of your breathing and to utilize your breath. Because similar, like, there are just things of the body that we take for granted until they stop working.

And one of those is breathing. Like, we just assume that we can breathe. But then if you have a breathing problem or you have a deficit, now we have a massive problem. You could even extract that to the big toe. Have you ever, like, broke your big toe or hurt it? Not broke it, but I have heard. No, thank God.

You realize how important that thing is. What does stops working, right? So he got a lot right. And I think it's fair to see a human as a human. And a human that we appreciate the work of, it's not a disrespect to question things. That's just the nature of science. Question everything. And if a question is a threat, then that's a really good question.

Like, that's something that needs to be questioned. So keep questioning things. And if it's a good concept, it should hold the test of time and also the test of questions. So, like, why is muscle fatigue poison? Yeah. You know, in religious studies and in sort of like the cult space, there are a number of jokes hinting at how difficult it is to define what a cult is. And one of them is a cult is a group where the leader thinks he can talk to God.

A religion is a group where that leader is dead. And what that is speaking to is just like how much we unquestioningly worship the doctrines of dead men. Not only in religion, but in politics, in fitness, in fitness, in. so many areas that are not scientific or pseudoscientific, but also sometimes in science. We're out here worshipping dead men when you should really be questioning them. But that quote feels pertinent to what you're saying and can apply to so many groups in contemporary American society that we don't think of as cults. But we are out here worshipping a dead man the way that religious people worship Jesus or the way that remaining Heaven's Gate members still worship

Marshall Applewhite. Yeah, and it's based on a selection bias. Like you only share the parts you like. None of the quotes that I shared with you are shared in Pilates education because they make no sense. And then if you share that, then they're no longer a deity. They're a human who made mistakes. Yeah. Okay. Our last question before we play a little game is what do you think, in your opinion, is the cultiest controversy or scandal that has ever befallen Pilates? That's a good question. Are you referring to like a specific event or an idea? Okay. Well, it's funny that you ask that because we've been trying to look for a specific event, and it's like, low-key kind of hard. So take the question as you will.

Yeah, I'm not a Pilates historian, but I would say that the cultiest part is just I've talked to individuals who studied a certain type of Pilates, and they wouldn't go to educational events that weren't held by that company because they're like, they said I'm not allowed to. Isn't that weird? Yeah. That's why you should go. So the identity, and a lot of that is like you're either classical Pilates or you're

contemporary Pilates. So I would say that that's what comes to mind in terms of the biggest cult is that you have to kind of pick a sign. Lack of nuance and like open communication is like the very abstract scandal of this goal. It's like testing the comfort level of like what if Joseph was wrong about something. If you want to piss off the internet, go put a Joseph Pilates quote on the internet that made no sense and then question his ideas. Oh my God, that's what we should do to promote this episode. Do exactly that. Just rage bait the Pilates Whorls. Okay. So speaking of questions, we

have a little game for you that consists of questions, and the game is called culty, or just cringe? So we're going to read a list of Pilates-oriented scenarios, and you will classify whether you believe in your alleged opinion the scenario

is culty or just kind of cringe. Okay. First things first, instructors using hands-on corrections without explicitly asking for consent. That's cringe. Number two, extremely specific insider language that newcomers can't understand. Oh, that's culty. Teacher trainings that cost thousands of dollars and promise real legitimacy.

That's culty. Strong loyalty to one method, and one method alone. That's exactly what it calls it. That's culty. Feeling guilt or anxiety when you skip a class. Oh, that's just cringe. Why are just being human? Being told, other workouts are dangerous, inferior, or bad for your body.

That's culty. Okay. Instructors discouraging modifications. That's just dumb. I don't know. Cringe. It's cringe. That would be cringe is the correct answer.

Viewing Pilates as rehabilitation for everything. That's culty. Feeling motivated by group accountability. This is me. You know, I think that's cool. Like, go do that. Yeah. I'm just going to sidestep that one.

Okay. That's fine. I think that's deeply human to be motivated by group. If it's like one group and you only do what the group says and that's Colty. Okay. But if you were about to skip class and then you got a text message that said, you're showing up, I think that's a good one. For sure.

And the last one is matching sets as an unspoken uniform. I'll just say cringe, I guess. I mean, I don't care Oh my God Go like wear what you want to wear I think it was more so touching on what we were talking about earlier How online culture

Kind of perpetuates this idea That you have to be in a matching set Or you're not a Palada Oh yeah see I'm a dude I just show up in like by Teng Tox Okay yeah I know it like he can't relate Yeah so I'm gonna say Cren I think it's Colty

But that doesn't reflect the actual studio I don't know But there's always one I guess. Right. That's the, as Chelsea was saying, the conversation between like standards online and whatever. Like, I'm going to say cringe because you don't have to do that. He's like, I'm not going to be. Coerced into saying Colty. I shan't be right. I mean, is that Colty? I mean, if you had to wear like a brand. No, I guess not. I mean, we love to sensationalize on this show and all of this is up to interpretation. So maybe it is just cringe. Adam, thank you so much for joining this conversation and

this analysis of the cult of Pilates, if people want to keep up with you and your approach to this cult, where can they do that? I'm on Instagram at Adam Actee Pilates, and then I'm also the founder of Evidence-based Pilates. So if you'd like to work with us, we do Pilates education. You can start for free and see if it's for you. That's at evidence-based Pilates.com. Amazing. Thank you. Chelsea, out of these three cult categories, live your life, walk. your back and get the fuck out. What do you think the cult of Pilates falls into?

I'm gonna say the cult of Pilates falls into a watcher back. Just because, I mean, come on, I love a good workout as much as the next gal. But I will say, I feel like we have become so individualistic in our world currently. And I feel like when we live in this bubble and we don't think about how our activities affect other people, I just don't think that's right. And so I think you need to be well-versed and understand that sometimes you are experiencing things, i.e. Pilates from a place of privilege. And I think Pilates should be more accessible to everyone. And so watch your back. I completely agree.

This cult shows up so differently than any of the other cult fitness studios or movement. that we've covered before, I didn't know how I was going to feel by the time we got to this verdict because it is hard to find a culty scandal or controversy that mirrors those that have befallen yoga to the people, Bikram, even Peloton, you know. But that doesn't mean that there aren't serious culty consequences to the way that this workout practice has to use your words, slithered its way into our culture and our beauty standards. And yeah, I completely agree. Like, I feel cognitive dissonance when I go in there and do Pilates because, I mean, everyone in that studio is a similar shape, size color. Like, it is hard to ignore. And yet it is around the corner

from my house. And I want to be accepted. Like, I do shamefully want to be accepted by these, like, Hot Girl Cool Girls, which is like, I guess some shit that I'll need to unpack. Maybe, I don't know. I'm also, like, new to my fitness journey and maybe at some point, I won't need that draw. You know, I'll just, like, enjoy exercising enough to be able to do it in, like, a healthier, more affordable way that, like, doesn't have any negative precussions. I don't know. This is, like, yeah, I feel a lot of cognitive distance around this for all the reasons that you described. Well, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening.

Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too, culty. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Podcaven. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Chelsea Charles. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson.

Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical O overthinking, notes on modern irrationality, and word slut, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the sounds like a cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult Pod, or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.