Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of PTA Moms

Episode Date: July 18, 2023

Get ready for some no holds barred sh*t-talking, culties, because this week, Amanda and Isa are joined by the hosts of the motherhood-themed "I've Had It" podcast for a wild discussion of how PTA Moms are kindaaa just like a cult. Relentless groupthink, wacky power dynamics, oh my... this conversation will leave you questioning bake sales forever. To support Sounds Like A Cult on Patreon, keep up with our live show dates, see Isa's live comedy, buy a copy of Amanda's book Cultish, or visit our website, click here! Or follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @isaamedinaa @amanda_montell Thank you to our sponsors! Go to farmersdog.com/cult to get 50% off your first box Head to stitchfix.com/cult and you'll get 25% off when you keep everything in your Fix  

Thank you to our sponsor, StitchFix. Get the star treatment with your own personal stylist. Try StitchFix today at StitchFix.com slash cult, and you'll get 25% off when you keep everything in your fix. That's StitchFix.com slash cult for 25% off today. StitchFix.com slash cult. Thank you so much to our sponsor, the Farmers Dog, the pet food of choice, personally for my dog fiddle. Listeners get 50% off your first box by going to the farmer's dog.com slash cult. Go to the the farmer's dog.com slash cult for 50% off your first box. That's the farmer's dog.com slash cult for 50% off your first box. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like A Cult,

are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable facts. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. This is Sounds Like A Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Esa Medina, I'm a stand-up comedian and you can catch my tour dates on my Instagram. I'm Amanda Montel, author of the book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism. Every week on our show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist, from Disney adults to mom-fluencers, to try and answer the big question.

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which cult category does it fall into? Live your life, watch your back, or get the fuck out. For our new listeners, a Live Your Life level cult is like a baby cult. Definitely fanatical, but mostly harmless. A watch your back level cult is borderline dangerous, checks off some of the culty boxes, but isn't totally destructive.

And then we have a Get the Fuck Out level cult, which is like, QAnon level, Mance and Vibes, aka Run for Your Life. After all, what classifies a cult is up to interpretation? interpretation. Lisa, I feel like you have a really good mom, but was she a PTA, mom? That is a good question, Amanda. Thank you so much for asking. No, she was not involved.

Hat all silent age, pronounced age, pronounced age. Hat all, she was not involved. Hat all, I mean, I remember when I first moved to America, first grade, and that was when I got introduced to the idea that people's moms brought in cupcakes for their birthdays. For everyone. You know, that was a good thing. This was a trauma for me as well.

Yeah, and glad we're already getting into it. Yeah. And I was like, it's my birthday where, where's my mommy? My cupcakes. She didn't come to get me the cupcakes and it was embarrassing and then the next year I was like bitch you better bring me some more fucking cupcakes. I was the same. You know, we had some work in moms or mom's jobs. But my mom worked from home. So like, oh no excuse. Yeah, I mean it was a very legitimate excuse because she did still work from home. Like, she was like at her desk working all day.

Right, we cannot minimize the WFH lifestyle that we both lead. Because also, she was also like a stay at home on Anna work from home in that she like, cleaned the house, made us breakfast every day, made dinner every day. Like, yeah, she was very much like a mother who did it all while also working like made dinner every day. She was very much a mother who did it all,

while also working an eight hour day. But in my mind, I was like, bitch, you're at home. What are you doing? Right, right. Anna Maria was a domestic goddess, and she was bringing home that bacon. And yet, there's always a reason to criticize a mother. They do get the short straw, the short end of the stick,

whatever idiom we wanna make at the bottom. More The short end of the stick? Whatever idiom we want to make at the bottom. They get the popcorn at the bottom of the bucket? Yeah, exactly. I will say, when I was in elementary school, I was rather jealous of the PTA moms, but I knew that my mom was never going to be that mom. I grew up with a lot of gender parity in the home. So, like, if my mom was expected to do something,

like, my dad would be doing it too. My parents are like a two-headed hydrother, just like the same. So, like, there was no way that my mom was gonna be a PTA mom because, like, both my parents were working the same job. They're research scientists. And yeah. So, the idea of my mother, like, being involved with my schooling

as charming and quaint and homie is that might have been and I was jealous of kids who had PTA moms in elementary school. It just was never the case. I will say though, and I don't know if you felt this way or if this was your situation, but once I got a high school, I was very grateful that my mom was not meddling in my school life because I have authority issues. Yeah. Yeah, I feel that too.

I was definitely grateful, but quick backside into the elementary school thing. I think like a lot of the moms who were very involved, it's because they didn't necessarily have a full-time job or even like a part-time job. And then that's where like that dynamic and like the shaming comes in of like moms who have the time and space, which is still very much like a job for them to like be involved in school, shaming like moms who aren't involved in school. It's like, there's only so much time in the day ladies, you know?

Like that's a new voice. It's a new voice and my mom, she didn't bake a fucking round in my whole childhood. I was the baker in the household, you know? And I used to bake goods for them to take to work. Oh, you were a PTA daughter. I was a PTA daughter. Yeah, you know, let me get up on my soapbox.

The cult of the patriarchy will always create a scenario where women are in conflict. So it's like there is this war between working mothers and PTA mothers and who is the best mother and what is the best family and who are the best kids. And I think that the reason why we're doing the cult of PTA moms and not the cult of like, it is parent teacher association after all,

it's not mother teacher association. But there isn't why we're covering PTA moms is because America affects women in a more cultish capacity a lot of the time due to the oppression. And the culty dynamics of the PTA don't have just to do with gender, I want to say. Like there is some socioeconomic stratification up the wazoo in here and we'll get into that

But he said maybe we should get a little bit into today's topic in the background of the cult of the PTA and its moms Yeah, I mean when did it start because I don't think that like it came out of the blue I don't think that schools were founded with a parent teacher or association and honestly, some schools have more of a foundation to one than others. So, very true. A-Coding to the National PTA website, which they have, of course, I wonder what mom made that. Okay, coder alert, women in STEM,

or people in STEM, people in STEM. The National Parent Teacher Association is a non-profit that was founded on February 17th, 1897 as the National Congress of Mothers. So I guess even though it is the Parent Teacher Association, it does have its roots in motherhood. Then it was founded by Alice McLellan, Bernie. Oh, she has two last names.

Go off, Queen. Phoebe Appers Bernie. Oh, she has two last names. Go off, Queen. Phoebe, Apperson, Hurst, also two last names. Both of them. Alice and Phoebe founded this National Congress of Mothers at a meeting in DC of over 2,000 parents, teachers, workers, and legislators. And so I guess they all got together and they were like, blah, blah, blah, blah.

What do we do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then they were like, the kids blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, what do we do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then they were like, the kids need help, the kids need help. And the kids need help is a really great reason to start an organization that may or may not one day develop into a cult because kids do need help. And these are not how all cults start, you know, like there's always like a positive reason

below the trauma, but today, the National PTA is composed of 54 state congresses and over 20,000 local units in all 50 states, usually in elementary schools. Yeah, so it's become quite the little household name. Like, it has become an Insta-to-she-on. It wasn't a little pet project. They were like, we are becoming a national organization. I didn't know it was like such a legitimate organization.

Like I thought parents could just like show up and like help little ESL kids with flashcards. Like they did me, you know? Babe, no, you gotta pay dues. There are rules, there is recruitment. It's cultier than you think, but this is not like a baby little fringy cult in the woods. This is a cult that's trying to rub elbows with the government. It's actually wild how institutionalized it

is. So let's talk a little bit about what the PTA's aims were and are. So it is the largest volunteer child advocacy organization in the nation. The National PTA claims to be V, and I quote, conscience of the country for children and youth issues. And through its advocacy, as well as its family and community education, the National PTA has established all these different programs and called for legislation in areas including the creation of kindergarten classes

because some elementary schools don't even have them. They advocate for hot and healthy lunch programs for get this because this says something about me. I didn't know that the PTA was a group that called for mandatory immunization because for some reason, and maybe this just reflects the cultiness of our culture right now,

I kind of think of PTA moms as a little bit a little bit anti-fax survives, no? I do too, I kind of agree with you. I would say that culture right now, I kind of think of PTA moms as a little bit, a little bit anti-vaxer vibes. No? I do too, I kind of agree with you. I would say that like right now, when I think of PTA moms, I think of like mommy bloggers, mommy influencers, kinds of people who like are maybe a little bit anti-vax. But if you think about it a little more deeply

and because it was founded in like the late 1800s, I can see their roots being in actually more structure because it is such a government adjacent organization that they're like, no, we want our kids to be safe and no one was thinking of these policies and it was probably moms who were like, my kid can't be sick because my kid needs to go to school because I need to go to work. Who were like-

It was more establishment. It was more establishment. It was more establishment. Yeah, I suppose I hold that stereotype in my mind because I think of PTA moms as having some privilege. But I will say the PTA, like many cults, was founded due to the failure of a larger system. The primary purpose of the PTA is to raise money for the elementary school and they push relentlessly

for more federal education financing because the federal government provides so little, these stats are nuts. According to Parent.com, an article called In Defense of the PTA mom, about 83% of funding for K to 12 public schools in our country comes from the state and district. So the way that like public schools work, if you didn't already know, is that like most of the funding comes locally and it's associated with essentially like the property value of your neighborhood,

which is like why you see like better public schools in higher income neighborhoods. And this is my opinion. There are mothers who have more time because they're wealthier because they are stay-at-home moms. They have time to volunteer at the school and then advocate that their kids school get more public funding. And so in turn that gives people with more money, more public funding because they have someone to advocate for them. It's a feedback loop. Yeah, exactly.

And the federal government share is only about 8.3% of funding for public schools. So like most funding comes from state and district and local funding. And private sources, specific grants, outreach programs. This parent.com article said that in an underserved or sparsely populated district, the PTA helps to fill discretionary budget gaps. However, to your point, the districts that need the PTA the most don't often have very active PTA parents due to overall systemic inequalities. Yeah, I feel like that would actually be like a good non-profit for someone to make.

It's like, if you want to like volunteer locally, volunteer as a PTA mom for another school that needs it, you know. So it would just be like, the moms who do have an abundance of time go and help like other schools. Medina, 2026, or whatever you turn 35, which for the record is amazing. Amazing. A hundred years.

Okay. Here's what's Coltie. There are these historical power imbalances in the PTA that not only exacerbate general marginalization, but also contribute to the Coltie PTA mom stereotypes that we'll get into in a second. So listen to this. According to a 2001 study and an article by the Brookings Institute, Detroit's PTA membership plunged to 1200 people from 60,000 people

in the early 1970s in the wake of white flight and intensifying poverty. The PTA has actually been shrinking ever since then, so there's been this wild decline in membership and local PTAs from a peak of 12 million in 1966 down to only 3.5 million in 2020. And I think this is a point that supports the cult of teachers, and that's just what I'm calling teachers, because that's what we do on the show. But it supports the idea that teachers in lower income neighborhoods and public schools are really overworked because they don't have that additional help from PTA moms. Like a lot of times PTA moms serve as maybe like a volunteer in the classroom when classrooms have like more students than they can handle with one teacher.

And then it's these teachers who are in lower income neighborhoods that are taking on not only more work in their day to day in the classroom, but also outside of the classroom, you know, supporting the students who need it. And again, like you said, the word, it's a negative feedback loop. Totally. And us continually using the word PTA moms and that being such a recognizable phrase in this culture really emphasizes how we're all in the cult of believing that so much unpaid labor and domestic labor and child rearing whether it's unpaid or paid too little, falls on the shoulders of women,

women are expected to fulfill these roles, even in homes where both parents are working. It's just like the default attitude that moms are supposed to be in the PTA and supposed to know how to bake fucking brownies, you know? Yeah, and I mean that also very obviously highlights the point that it is work. It's literally work, like just because you are a stay at home mom who doesn't have like a traditional job one, you're already like doing a lot of the household labor, but then on top of it, you're volunteering,

getting out of the house, helping out of school. That is literally a job. That a lot of schools need and resources that make them better. This sort of gender disparity and there are other kinds of disparities as well that contribute to the cultishness of the PTA connects to why it's been declining in numbers. So some of the reasons why the PTA has shrunk so much is that only 20% of American students live in two parent households today with a single wage earner. And that's down from over 50% during the PTA's heyday

in the 1960s. I feel like when you first read that stuff, it sounds like it's like people have a lot of divorced parents, but it's a single wage earner in a two parent household. So that means that most two parent households are actually just two wage earner households, and which means that both parents are working.

So that means that like even if the parents aren't divorced, it just means that like they don't have time to volunteer because they're both working. Yeah, like it's hard to live in America these days that like just is period. I do not know how people can afford anything right now. I know things have gotten so expensive, but wages have not increased.

So essentially, you know, teachers are now reporting that only about 60% of parents, even attend parent teacher conferences. And this leads to the PTA becoming more culty because these time in energy demands create a self-selective PTA, meaning that most of the remaining PTA members, this 3.5 million stat, are these sort of sometimes culty PTA mom stereotypes that we all think of these sort of elitist, toxically ambitious, competitive moms. Yeah, I feel like what you're saying is that it is literally a privilege to be a two-parent household with a single wage income. Definitely.

It is not something that the majority of America can do anymore. It's probably either happening in a neighborhood where people had to move their lower-cost rural areas after they've been priced out of costly cities or costly suburbs, or it's probably in the 1%. It's all making sense now that we're talking about it why PTA moms have such this culty negative stereotype because we fail to think about the privilege of even being able to show up to a PTA meeting and perform that labor. There was this New York Times article from 2021 where a mother named Heather Osterman Davis who has a chronic illness noted

that she could only become involved in her child's school during the pandemic when everything moved to Zoom because she wasn't able-bodied, you know? Like the PCA has just ruled out a lot of people through socioeconomic imbalances, racial inequality. It's, again, it's not just about gender. Yeah, or non-traditional professions, where like if someone is working in the evening, like they can't make the deviatings in the evening.

And it's like, why weren't they already moved to Zoom? Like, who needs to go to the school? I know, I know, it is wild when you think about it. And again, we've been talking about feedback loops, but it's like, if only the most privileged parents, most often, mothers, because there's privilege, but there's also gender inequality going on at the same time, are able to volunteer for the PTA,

then they're really only advocating and vocalizing their demands, their needs, their wants. And that means that the PTA just becomes even more insular and more culty and single parent families, lower income families with unforgiving schedules like don't get the advocacy that they actually need more. That literally affects the education of like thousands

of children and the children that follow and then like how those children are brought up and what colleges They go to whether they have access to the right resources and then who they become as adults children are like at the base of our culture Whitney Houston said I believe that children are the future teach them well and let them lead the way She was really on to something there about like them being the future That is so true. Like they literally grow up and they become the future. And meanwhile we stay the same age because I'm gonna be 21 forever. Okay, so if we're talking about the cult of PTA moms, we cannot ignore the

stereotype that they are so often competitive to the point of like a little bit of violence. And to portray those dynamics, we do wanna tell one absolutely wack-a-doodle story of a culty PTA mom gone wild. This is exciting, I'm excited for this story. It comes from the year 2011. There was a woman named Kelly Peters. She was living in Irvine, California, orange county,

a very, very culty hub. Lots of QAnon yoga moms down there. She's pulled over by police after a call came in with a fake name, but they, it was pitched as a real name, of course, who claimed that they had seen her car driving erratically and that there were drugs all over the place. So the police pulled her over, and indeed there were drugs all over the place. Janan Wong for the Washington Post reported that she responded,

please, they're not mine. I swear, they're not mine. On the day that these drugs were found in Peter's car, she took a sobriety test and was brought in for police questioning for two hours. The police asked her Do you know anyone who would do this to you who would like frame you because she claimed the drugs were hers and she said An answer immediately came to her mind There was one person without a doubt a fellow

PTA mom named Jill Easter All right, she was mom named Jill Easter. All right, she was certain that Jill Easter had planted these drugs in her car. Now, there is a six-part Pulitzer Prize winning series on this story in the LA Times by a guy named Christopher Gofford, but here's a long story short. Kelly Peters is lady.

She was the PTA president at her school in Irvine and the director of the Afterschool program. And she was targeted by the Easter family because they thought she had insulted their six-year-old son the year before. They wanted her fired, but she was not fired. So they planted drugs in her car and called the police. Oh, I wonder what the insult was.

I know. Like you're so fucking short, stupid little kid. That is actually definitely not cool or okay of Jill Easter to do, but writer die fucking mom right there, dude. Like, I actually applaud her. Cause like nobody got hurt and the other lady kind of like had a rude awakening about being mean to six year olds.

But it was, it was an alleged, it was an allegedly. Oh, she had allegedly insulted her six year old son. Yeah, they, they thought she had insulted their son. I mean, sometimes kids can be mean. I need to be insulted back, okay. I'm just gonna hear real, real, real, real, I'm just talking, your devil's albacadoing a lot right now.

Devil's albacadoing myself, and I'm devil's albacadoing left and right. Basically, this is just a story that illustrates how tense and fanatical and zealous to the point of violence, the pressures of elementary school motherhood can be, and the tensions in the PTA, they can go to a really culty place. So it's time to talk to some moms, women who have true life experience, mothering, and raising children because their children are raised, their children are up in and out

of the house. So joining us to talk about the cult of PTA moms are the amazing hosts of the I've had it podcast Jennifer Welch and Angie Pumps Sullivan. These guests were recommended to us by a listener. Thank you so much for tipping us off. Jennifer and Angie are going to give us the inside scoop on what it really feels like to be in the cult of PTA moms. So here's our conversation. I love Stitch Fix because they have a range of where-now styles in season-ready colors, trends, and patterns to help refresh your wardrobe. With Stitch Fix, you can get a personal stylist

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for 50% off your first box. That's thefarmerstog.com slash cult for 50% off your first box. That's the farmers dog comm slash cult for 50% off your first box. Thank you all so much for joining our much requested episode on the cult of PTA moms. Could you first of all just introduce yourself and your work to our listeners? I'm Angie and we are the co host if I've had it podcast. I'm Jennifer and I'm Angie's co-host where we air the daily grievances of being a human being out amongst other human beings in the general public. Otherwise known as shit talking. We've gotten so many requests for this topic. I mean off the bat can you talk about what you think is Coltie about the PTA in general and Coltie can refer to things that can be positive or negative. Like we always talk about how like community is a great aspect of Colt. So, you know, feel free to take it in whatever direction you think. So, Poms has three kids. I have two.

And we're in the twilight of our motherhood. We each still have one child at home in the rest or in college. And I will tell you, motherhood is fantastic. The worst thing about being a mother are other mothers. There's no question about it. I have never been in the PTA. I will never be in the PTA. All of these moms can have it.

And the official PTA is not as pronounced as it was when we were growing up in the 80s. They've kind of tried to modernize it in a sense with our kids. It's like a mom meeting or a mom get together. They try to make it sound more casual, but I don't fall for this. I know exactly what they're trying to do

with this kind of language. I know exactly what wrote it's going to lead me down. And I genuinely want no part of it, because I think the most important thing about being a mother is who you are when you're at home with your children. All these PTA moms are out meathering each other to each other and the kids aren't even privy

to any of the stuff that's going on, except for the fact that maybe their mom's not available to do something with them because she's too busy baking 950,000 homemade cookies. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It is so cult like to be so distracted by the activities that you're doing

and so invested in the quote unquote mission that you kind of lose sight of the fundamental purpose why you're there. And that seems to be what you're kind of describing. Right. My children went to a school where the parents are up at the school all the time. They go to all the kids' parties. They go to all the kids' assemblies.

They go to all the pet assemblies. They're flittering around the offices. They're constantly at the school. And so when my kids were little and they would say, why don't you come to our assemblies? I'm like, because I have more to do to be at your school for an assembly that I don't give come to our assemblies? I'm like, because I have more to do to be at your school for an assembly that I don't give a shit about. Like, you're a kid, you're in school, it's your assembly. I don't need to be there.

But with all these power moms, and they're always, you know, claining the parties and sending out emails. And who's gonna bring the snacks? And they go on the field trips. Like, your kid is like, well, I guess my mom's just not involved. And it's like, no, your mom's just being a normal grown-up. It's the moms that are there all the time that are fucked up. And those moms fuck us.

Those moms fuck the normal moms like Pumps and Me have careers. And we've already been to school. We already graduated from school. So that assumes that you don't have to go back to school. So why these moms want to go hang around at the school is beyond me. I mean, totally beyond me. But that's theirs to sort out with their psychiatrist, right? But these moms fuck us because when my kids were in lower school, Roman or Dylan, those are my sons would come home and go, well, such and such as mom went on the field trip with us today. And I'm like, God, damn it,

fucking Brenda. Why are you always running around making everybody look like shit? So I told my kids, I will do one thing per year. One. So one year, I picked and we went to some like museum for my youngest son. And then sure enough, one of the moms like text me, Hey, do you want to ride together? And I thought, you know, I'm already diving off into this pool with no water. And it why not ride with this power mom biggest mistake of my life getting the car with this woman. And it is just a flex. She's got like five kids and all I heard about the entire time was how smart her kids were all these activities. They're enrolled in. I mean, I was so exhausted for her children by the time we got to this museum. I'm like, there is not going to be enough dollars in a bank account to get her kids through therapy

because she's had them signed up for so much shit. And their lives, they've been unable to live. I mean, it's unbelievable. I mean, these moms, they fuck everyone over and I've had it with these moms, I had it. We're not above it, you know. No, we're not. No, I love the way that you talk about how they like

fuck you and they like fuck everyone else because I remember being a kid and asking the same question, like why isn't my mom on this field trip? Or like why isn't my mom volunteering to teach me timetables in the hallway? And it's like, you know? It's because she has a job. I just find it fascinating that there are these culty us

versus them dynamics that have been created between the moms who are in the PTA and volunteer at the school, and that's their main gig. And there's a way to be way to invest it, and that's what we're talking about today. And the moms who don't do that, because there doesn't have to be a war. But I can't help but think like the societal structures that have like

deserved women for so long have like created this conflict to distract us all, you know? Like there's a half to be this worrying if there is. Well, you say that, but let me tell you what just happened to me about three weeks ago. Okay. Okay. So my son, Roman, is a basketball player, but he signed up to be the manager for his school soccer team. So what being a manager for a soccer team consists of is Roman sitting on the bench with a clipboard, which means that Jennifer, that's me, I'm not going to attend one soccer game because I don't need to go watch Roman sit on a bench. Now if he were the star soccer player, even a, you know, like maybe played three minutes, I would be at that game, right? But he's just sitting on the bench.

He's the soccer manager. I'm not going to those games. So this power mom, she texts me and they won state championship. She's like, Hey, Roman didn't come get measured for his ring. Roman 16 years old. Okay. Roman drives the car. He has a cell phone. And I'm thinking, like, first of all, why is this bitch texting me? This is a Roman problem. This isn't like Roman bullied somebody on the playground. I need a parent to intervene.

So I text Roman. I'm like, Roman, do you want this soccer ring? He was like, no, I just did that to get service hours. I don't really care about the soccer team. So I respond to her like, hey, Roman didn't want the ring. She's like, what are you coming to the banquet? I mean, this is da da da da da da. And I said, Roman was just the manager.

So I don't think we're going to go to the banquet. It's banquets or another thing I've had it with. Oh, yeah. And she literally start shaming me, trying to make me feel bad for not going to this banquet. And then you will not believe what this woman did. She made 20 posters, 20 for 16 and 17 year olds that's like all these candy bars are attached to it

that say a word like you might snicker and it's a snickers bar and get the skittles and she made this whole thing and then Roman comes home from this banquet with a stack two feet high of pictures, plaques, awards for being the soccer team manager. And I'm just remove myself from it. These moms can have it. They can group me. They can make all these candy bar posters, fucking swing for the fences. That's fine.

If there's a problem with a 16 year old child that involves behavior that a parent needs to insert themselves in, I'm going to be the first to help mitigate that situation. Roman not getting fit for a ring that he doesn't want. It's not a Jennifer problem. That's a fucking Roman problem. And I'm trying to raise kids to be autonomous. Yeah. And be adults that don't get so stressed out

when they get to college or have a job for the first time. And I'm telling you, these kids of these power moms, they're all gonna be pissies. Every single one of them. Oh my God. I love you. It's true. It's true. It's true.

I do think it does say, it's like a classic therapy situation when you see the way that this woman is kind of probably taking out something that's going on in her personal life, out on you, you know, of like the anger of like texting and being like, why wasn't he fitted, does he not want to read? You know, it's like, to me, it seems like one of those like classic situations where like, I mean, it's frustrating, but in a way, I'm like,

if they have nothing else to do, I mean, I guess they're kind of treating it like a job, you know? I'll tell you what it is. You're right, it is a therapy situation. And here's my diagnosis. She's pissed after all 17 years of signing up to do too much shit. It sounds exhausting. Candy bar, poster boards, 95,000 plaque.

She's hosting this banquet. She's texting all these moms. And then she thinks, I wonder what that fucking Jennifer welches doing. And then she Googles it. Well, she's on a podcast shit talking. God damn it. What have I done for these last 16 or 17 years?

So she passive aggressively kind of took this out on me. Because at the end of the day, like if you put all your eggs in one basket and this is really never discussed, when you become a mom, you still have to do other things. You still have a wife, you're still a friend, you still have a career or whatever it is, but your entire life cannot be your children because that's unfair to your children.

It's unfair to put that kind of burden on them. So when this power moms kids leave, there's no question. She is going to be grinding up Xanax and sorting it, but she's not going to be able to cope because she's got nothing to do. It's so interesting because you're talking about motherhood, but I hear you describe the challenges of cult membership because it really is the idea of like investing all of your eggs in one basket. You like completely commit yourself to this one ideology, this one group, this one belief, and then when it all come crashes down, you find yourself with nothing. And so I think the PTA probably has some recruitment strategies

that make it seem like you should put all of your eggs in that basket, and that group will bring you life fulfillment and purpose. But you're saying, you know, it's important to diversify. You keep saying the word power, mom. And I want to talk more about the power structure of the PTA. Can you sort of talk about the hierarchies that you've witnessed and who holds power in that organization?

Well, I think the power moms are just a group of women that are self-appointed, that they're going to be reliving all of their high school elementary school, middle school, over through their child, and they get so invested in doing nice things for the teachers, going up to school and volunteering, doing all the shit work nobody else wants to do, through their child and they get so invested in doing nice things for the teachers going up to school and volunteering, doing all the shit work. Nobody else wants to do so that their kid will be granted preferential treatment. Power moms and the PTA moms pretty much the same thing, just not as organized. The PTA is not as prevalent as it was when we grew up in the 80s, like as far as like join the PTA.

It is guised as this like parent association, not really parent teacher association so much anymore, but there's a click of power moms at every school. Because I don't think any of the schools that my children attended had an official PTA. Oh, interesting. But for sure, there is a group of power moms that helicopter over the school much like the United States military would over, you know, for rock. It's a very similar

hovering type style and it's a very aggressive style hovering. So you can say PTA, but it's more power moms because some schools might have an official PTA, but Clemson, I've always called them the power moms and they are a cult. They also form an alliance where they get into the children's business. They gossip about the couples that are in high school or they talk down to other power moms about certain children and certain parents and parenting choices. So they've self-appointed themselves, the judge, Jerry, and executioner for high school kids

when they're grown-ass women hanging out at high school. I really talk to them. And I love the language that you're using, like the military example, and then you're also using the word alliance. And you're like, what essentially these moms are doing is they're creating like a political influence at the school so that their kids could get into

like certain classes or with certain teachers. And it's like, I mean, I remember in high school being like, there were two AP lit teachers. You know, it was like a classic movie situation. There was like the one that was like young, hot teacher. He gave everyone a's. And then there was like the old teacher that had been there for decades

and if you got him, you were screwed for like your senior year, you know, you actually had to like read a million books and you know, the kids with parents who had influence, they got into the easier class. And that has like long term effects on like what college you get into and things like that. So it's like, I think it's important to just highlight that you were saying it's not just the PTA because it's like not every school has a high functioning PTA but it's these like helicopter parents that have like massive influence. My kids when they went to preschool to eighth grade they went to a school that did not allow

any PTA, any parent organization whatsoever And so it was awesome because I have a career and I dropped my kids off. They went to after school club and a lot of the other parents that sent their kids to this school had careers. And so all the kids stayed until like 4.30 or 5 whenever the parents got up work. There was zero, zero parent, anything.

Like you were not allowed to do anything at the school. It was incredible. So then that school only goes to eighth grade. So when my oldest son went to high school at ninth grade, I'm all of a sudden on like 95,000 group meet tax. And I'm like, wait a minute. Like I'm more involved in communicating with parents now than when my child was five years old.

And so it was a real culture shock for me going from this school that only was preschool to eighth and then it ends, going to this high school and my kid drove himself to the high school and I'm like thinking, you know, this is going to be a piece of cake and these moms are, you know, just raining down on me to do all of these things. Like, have you bought Dylan's homecoming ticket yet? And I'm like, that's a Dylan problem. Dylan needs to buy's homecoming ticket yet? And I'm like, that's a Dylan problem. Dylan needs to buy his homecoming ticket.

Like when I went to school, if I needed something or I was responsible for something, my mother put that on me to do. And so I do the same with my kids, but these moms, they do every single thing. They're over complicating the process yet. That's that's Coltie too, because it reminds me a lot of corporate America that sort of infuses all this bureaucracy and systems and red tape for what purpose just

to have something to do to create Coltie dynamics to create power structures where they're needing to be. That's very interesting. It's this bizarre flex that goes on particularly with moms. And then if you transfer that over to, once you get to sports, then you have the grandstanding dads. And the dads at sports events are completely psychotic beyond anything you can imagine. And you're talking about sixth grade, seventh grade, oh my gosh, basketball, or baseball, or soccer.

And you would think that this father is the father of LeBron James. It's unbelievable. There's fights with referees. There are fights among parents. The screaming of the worst job in America, no doubt, is to be an empire or a referee for a school-aged child sport team. It would have to be the most thankless job ever. I mean, they get their asses reigned non-stop. I'm glad you mentioned that it also happens with dads, because it's not just women, you know, it happens with everyone. Yeah, we got a shout out the cult leader dads.

Well, I guess they're cult leaders and cult followers at the same time, because we cover a lot of sort of female focus cults on this show, but we can't deny that men are just as susceptible to that type of fanaticism as women are. It's just more accepted and not as critiqued and not as marked, because we just like by default expect fanaticism when it's dressed up in like a masculine suit.

Yeah, right. And I have definitely in my time on my kids' benches at sporting events. I've seen the men go crazy, but I've seen a couple women that could put the men to shame. I mean, we're talking like middle school age kids and they're screaming and scratching at the ref, they get kicked out.

We just had last summer and one of the suburbs of Oklahoma City, a parent went up and started fist-fighting the referee of a middle school basketball game on a Saturday. He had to be taken to the hospital, broke his job, broke his ocular bone, blood was all over the court, and we're like, so this is what you want your kid to be like. That's the get the fuck out. That's it. Yeah. It's fucking bananas, how these men and women too, but more particularly men, I don't know if they're living through their child, like I was a shitty athlete, but I want my kid

to be the state champion of everything. Yeah. Or if they just honestly believe their child is the second coming of, you know, Michael Jordan. And honestly, there's a lot of delusions of grandeur when you get to the sports, especially with the dads, that they have their kid, let's call him Billy. And Billy is maybe 17 years old and Billy's five nine. Okay.

And Billy's playing basketball and they are certain that Billy is going to be a D1 basketball player. And it's just never going to have that beauty laugh so. You know, completely fine. He makes three baskets a game, maybe one steal, but there's no fucking way this kid is going to play D1 basketball. And what's so sad about it is I think that a lot of parents project this onto their children. And it's the parents wish for them. I wish for my child to be a star athlete. And the child, maybe the child wants to be in drama,

maybe the child wants to be in, you know, like a professional video gamer or whatever, but the parents have projected so much of what their vision is for the child. And that's why I think you see with our kids' generation, the anxiety rates are through the roof, because are we allowing them at any point to stop and just enjoy their life? Everything you're describing, like, the competition aspect, the delusion, the overly optimistic desire to ascend some sort of hierarchy,

to show everybody that you're doing an amazing thing in your life, I think these same motives that drive these power moms to be the ultimate PTA, super queen or whatever, or the dads to be violent on the soccer field, is they're the exact same things that drive people to join cults. And that's why cults thrive in this country in particular, right?

It's like that Protestant capitalism, gold rush, manifest destiny, and it looks different on different people, but it's cultishness across the board. And also what you're highlighting to me is like something we talk about on the podcast all the time as well, which is like the cult of the American dream. Like you're talking about these dads that think that like their son is going to make it into the NBA and like the probability of that statistically is like 0.001%. But we're sold this idea that like our children could be like you said the next coming

of Christ. And it's like, uh, not going to happen, my guy. And how fucked up a culture? Are we that we think that monetary and career success is the equivalent of the second coming of a religious figure? Yeah. That's cool. There's so much over capitalism in all of this that drives and fuels the whole thing. Yeah. Like when you sign your kid up to play a sport or if you're a mom that's actively in the PTA, then it's a fundraising component. We have to have all of this gear and it's just this. There's so much capitalism that is thread through all of it, where what is lost is just connecting. You know, connecting on a human connection is one of the biggest things we can do to fight depression.

And there's very little connecting, and there's a lot more one-epsmanship, more spending each other into a frenzy. And so I do think that social media hyped up capitalism. All of this stuff coming to fruition Pumps and I grew up in the 80s our moms never were at the school. Never ever. Yeah, they were never at school This is a new kind of thing that's happening and it doesn't surprise me one bit that these kids have so much anxiety Because their parents have told them you are my entire world My mom loves me. My mom loves me unconditionally.

If I needed a kidney, she'd give it to me right now. But I know that she has other things in her life. I know I'm one of the biggest things, but I know she has a whole slew of baskets that she has to fill with eggs. I'm one of the biggest ones, and my siblings are, but I know I'm not her entire world. You mentioned a bit about the gossip mom.

We found this article on today.com. Like there's some very clear stereotypes that like you kind of described. You know there's like the type A mom, the overachiever mom, then there's like the gossip mom, the wine o'clock somewhere mom, the drama queen mom. Can you talk a little bit more about the archetypes that exist in the PTA? There always is kind of an HBIC with all the schools. There's always one HBIC and this woman would be like, for me personally, a person that I would dodge at all costs that I wouldn't want nothing to do with.

And I would hope that she would say, oh, Jennifer's not involved in anything at all. And I would wear that with a badge of honor because there always is that, it's like the woman that called me about the ring. I'm like, why do you fucking care if Roman gets a ring or not? Like how on earth?

Right. Does that have anything to do with your life? It's a constant flex to point out, look at what a better mom I am, look at how much better my kid is than your kid. And it's all a really real thing and it's a real dynamic that's being spread. But when I go to basketball games

half the time I don't even sit by other parents because I just, I can't tolerate it. It's just, I don't like small talk. I don't like to hear people flex about their kids. I know people don't want to hear about my kids. I said to my husband and I just kind of sit by ourselves. You spoke about this a little bit about how they're kind of like rebranding and trying to make it sound more casual for the 21st century and we talked a little bit in our discussion before we started this interview about why the PTA has shrunk since the 60s and 70s and 80s.

But could you talk a little bit more about the recruitment tactics that the PTA uses to try and get other people into the organization, even though it is dwindling? I had an experience when my child was in kindergarten. He was my oldest. it was the first one I'm Rahaw and a girl that I knew called me and said, Hey, we'd like for you to volunteer on this board. It's gonna be super easy. You'll just be in charge of the school auction. It's no big deal. You know, we would just love to have you. Well, since I was like a newbie, I was like so flattered like, I'm so much. They were wanting to do this, that is so nice. Ended up being the biggest, most torturous thing

that has ever happened to me on the planet. Like 80 hours a week for three months, trying to get all this shit done. It was an absolute disaster. So I think no one goes in saying, we're gonna work your dick in the dirt for the bullshit at the school. They make you think like, oh my gosh, you know, like,

so I felt like super flat out at the time and then I realized it was just a con job. So I would assume it was a lot of con job. One of my favorite stories about the Power Bomb PTA is they always wanna have tons of committees. You know, we're gonna sell cookies on Thursday. So let's have 47 committee meetings about it so we can talk about it.

And that's just like, you can't second figure out how to make cookies by yourself and sell them on Thursday. You got major problems. But so one mom that I really admired, her children were older than mine. We used to have a, I guess we still do, my kids school a geranium cell. Like you sell gorgeous geraniums.

I guess they're really pretty whatever I've never bought one. So one year, the woman that they tapped to be in charge of the drainiams sales, they bring her in for one of these committee meetings. And she was uber wealthy. And so she sit in there and everybody's going around given their opinion of the drainiams on the committee. And she

looks at them and she's like, how much money do you have to raise for this committee? And they were like, well, you know, last year we raised $8,, how much money do you have to raise for this committee? And they were like, well, you know, last year we raised $8,000, so we'd really like to raise $9,000 this year. She opened her purse, she wrote a check for $9,000 since it said, here it is, I'm done.

And I was like, I'm fucking worship the ground. She was. Oh, man. She's like, you're not gonna commission me. You're not gonna bullshit me about these draining. And here's the deal the drainium committee was running your Endpoints radiums are back after last year when we couldn't have trainings. Yeah, so I think there's a lot of conjoining in the salesmanship. I get you now because it has been so modernized. It starts with this benign group me and it's like Parents of the class of 2020 right you get invited to this group me and it's like parents of the class of 2020. Right. You get invited to this group me and

it's like, oh, welcome, Jennifer. We're so happy to have your son at the school. This is the parent group me. Bob, Bob, Bob. So I'm looking at it because my son had finished that school to eighth grade and then he went, you know, to high school. And I'm looking at it. And I am just like, okay, it's not helpful. But then they all start flexing on it. Like, I'm going to do this for homecoming and I'm gonna host this and I'm gonna do this. And then, just like Pemps said, then they start the fundraising things.

And then you have people that are on this committee and on this committee and on this committee. I simply, from the jump, I'm like, I'm happy to make a donation to the school. I'm happy to make a donation to the basketball team. Beyond that, I do not have time to give. Yeah, it's like how much do I have to pay not to anyone? Yeah. It's exactly. It reminds me so much of like reply all on email corporate culture. It's like you are trying to prove to HR or to whoever the exec on the email thread is that like

you're doing the most, but the most like wild part about all of that is is that's like you're not going to get a bonus, you're not going to get a promotion. What is the fucking point? That is so sort of existential. He's threatening like, why is anyone doing all of this? Do you said that the PTA numbers were declining, correct? Yeah. So here's the deal. It's a hundred percent worse now. The actual affiliate organization, the PTA, somebody might be able to research that and put out an article by no means does this mean that parents are not grandstanding and showbiz at the school? Yeah. It is 10,000 times worse now. We grew up in the 80s and it was peak PTA time. Right. It is

horrible. I mean, it is a reminder listener. Motherhood is fine. It's awesome. It's frustrating. It's the greatest thing in the worst thing that ever happened to you all at the exact same time. The worst thing about it on the planet are the other parents. That's such a good point that like even though the official PTA organization itself might be decreasing in size, this type of Phenomenon, the hypercompetition and the grandstanding like you were saying the cultishness has only gotten worse and I Can't help but think that like just the general Social stratification and the culture right now and social media as an addition to the mix and everything has made the Coltishness worse even if PTA is not stamped on the front of the letterhead. So this has been such an interesting conversation, but we really want to transition into a little game with the

both of you. So the game is called Coltie Quotes and it's where we read you a quote from a cult leader in history, one that was real and, you know, hashtag bad, and then a PTA mom. And then you guess who it was. They all kind of sound like cult leaders said them, but you're gonna have to guess whether a cult leader from history said them or the official PTA website said them. This is gonna be fun.

Okay. The first quote goes, recognize the power of your intuition, reclaim your voice and rekindle your relationships with your children and yourself. Even if you haven't yet become a mother. I'm going PTA. PTA. So that quote was actually stated by a cultish leader named Kelly Brogan, who is an extremely controversial, damaging conspiracy theorist out there right now. So I would classify that as a Coltish leader, but she actually might be in the PGA. The two are not mutually exclusive. That's so true. Okay, next quote. This association was founded by a lifelong friends who believe it could help you reach your

full potential and provide a better life for you and your family. That's it, Colt. You are correct. It is AM way one of the world's biggest multi-level marking. Yes. Yes. So, the next quote goes, Our founders represented women of imagination and courage.

They had a simple idea to improve the lives and future of all children. They understood the power of individual action and took action to change the world for all children. PTA. PTA. 100%. You are correct. They really laid on thick though on the website. You know, it sounds religious. Yeah, these quotes are tough because inherently a lot of them are going to have the website, you know, it sounds religious. Yeah, these quotes are tough because like inherently, like a lot of them are gonna have the word children in them,

but I mean children of God, so you know, thanks could be cool. I know, cults love getting at the children. Yeah, oh totally. Next quote, you belong in our association and so do your relatives, neighbors, and friends. Spread the word for less than three cents a day, you can become a member.

Cult. ETA. a member. Colts. ETA. ETA. No way. Straight from the PTA website. That's crazy. That is totally Coltty, lady. That is definitely Coltty.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. The next one goes, the people who find this path are meant to, and when we work together, you have entered the path of unconditional love. Colts. Yes. That's it the path of unconditional love. Colt. Yes. That's it. This is actually brand new Colt.

Oh, the front of the pot off the press. Hot off the presses. Yes, yes, yes. One of our friend of the pod, a guy named Jennings Brown, who like reports on Colt's for a living, he just broke the news of this Colt, massive news. It's called Liana Shanty's Lemory and Mystery School. Look it up. Oh, okay.

I can't wait. I love a good cult to be sied. Okay. Last quote, we have been an ardent advocate for bettering the lives of every child because we know we cannot only focus on our own children. PTA, you know why? One thing we didn't discuss about the PTA, it encourages women to be busy bodies. It encourages codependency and toxic behavior.

All of these power moms are the ultimate busy bodies. So that quote that you just read, I immediately knew it was PTA because it not just our children, but other children. That's really like no therapist would really advise you to meddle into somebody else's childhood unless of course they were in danger. Yeah.

Oh my God, I love how you're like the cult detective with the PTA specifically. You're like, and that is a sign of, da da da da, and you're like, yeah, I believe in it in the trenches with these women for 20 years. And a couple of episodes on our podcast, we declared war on the power moms.

We're tired of like preschool graduation, kindergarten graduation. It's stupid. It's stupid. You should graduate from those things. And so we want to oppose that type of over celebration because I think it's exacerbating adult anxiety in like 18 to 25 year olds

because everything's been celebrated. And then when you become an adult, it's really difficult. Nobody's celebrating you anymore. And so we know that when we want to eliminate these things, our opponent in this will be the power moms. Incredible. Well, that's all we have for you. Thank you so much for coming on.

Sounds like a cult. We enjoyed being here. Yes, we're so excited that you had the time that you came on the show. If our listeners want to keep up with you or your work or join your cult, where can they do that? Well, our cult is available for all people that like to shit talk at, I've had it, podcasts. Pumps is Instagram is at pumps, pumps, pumps, and mine is at Miz Welch, M-I-Z-Z Welch.

And if you're curious like what I do for real life, it's at Jennifer Welch designs. I'm an interior designer. Amazing. Oh my God, I need one. Amazing. Well, thank you again for coming on the show. Thanks for having us. So Amanda, out of the three cult categories, live your life. Watch your back or get the fuck out. of your life, watch your back, or get the fuck out. What do you think the cult of PTA moms falls under? I would say it's a solid watch your back,

because if you look at our sort of casual checklist of what makes something a dangerous cult versus an innocent one, some of the boxes are checked. I mean, it is intensely competitive. There are these us versus them vibes between like the working moms and the volunteering moms. It can get very toxic. They're unhealthy power dynamics and exclusion.

But at the same time, it is a completely volunteer organization where if you leave, you might lose some friends, you might lose some clout, but you're not going to feel for your life. So in that way, I would say much like being a mother in America in general, it is a watcher back. Yeah, I mean, I completely agree. I think it's a watcher back also because you have

so much influence over the education and policies and regulation around children's education, that it's like you have to make sure that you're being attentive to how you could positively or negatively influence the culture of a school. Yeah, that is so true. Another red flag with the cult of the PTA, much like many dangerous cults,

is it's hard to tell whose in power, who's trying to gain power, the hierarchies are just so culty and gross or they can be. So yeah, I think we're, we've landed on a verdict. It's a solid, not your back. Solid, watch your back. That is our show.

Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with the new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty! Sounds like a cult was created, hosted, and produced by Esa Medina and Amanda Montel. Our theme music is by Casey Colt. This episode was edited and mixed by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. To join our cult, follow us on Instagram at Sounds Like A Colt Pod. I'm on Instagram at Amanda Under Square Montel and feel free to check out my books, Cultish, the language of fanaticism and word slit, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. And I'm on Instagram at Issa Medina, I-S-A-A, M-D-I-N-A, where you can find

tickets to my live stand-up comedy shows or tell me where to perform. We also have a Patreon, and we would appreciate your support there at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. And if you'd like our show, feel free to give us a rating on Spotify or Apple podcasts. And if you don't like our show, rate other podcasts the way you'd rate us. you