Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Reality TV Families

Episode Date: December 5, 2023

Wowowow, today’s episode featuring Jill and Derick Dillard (whom you might recognize from TLC’s 19 Kids & Counting!!) has been a looooong time coming. Imagine this: You’re born into a family that’s already a little ~abnormal~ because your parents are polygamists or you have 200 siblings or whatever, then a reality television network comes knocking with promises of money and glory, slaps your whole clan of loved ones into a giant pair of golden handcuffs, a bunch of exploitation ensues, and one day you wake up and realize you’ve spent your childhood in an insane f*cking cult??? The “cult” of reality TV families is today’s subject of discussion, and what a juicy convo it was. Of all the reality TV family shows, which do YOU think is the cultiest??  Click here to check out Amanda's new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking. Copies of her last book Cultish can be found here (and make a lovely holiday gift!).  Stay tuned for news about Amanda's new Magical Overthinkers podcast here. Thank you to our sponsors: Head to Microdose.com and use code: CULT to get free shipping & 30% off your first order. Dipsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/CULT. This episode reflects solely the opinions and work of Amanda and special guests.

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For listeners of the show, Dipsy is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipsyStories.com slash cult. That's 30 days of full access for free. When you go to D-I-P-S-E-A, stories.com slash cult, DipsyStories.com slash cult. Let's talk about microdosing. Explore the benefits of microdosing THC at microdose.com and use code cult to get free shipping

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It's just me hosting this week, so the opinions and work represented on this episode are solely my own and that of my special guest. And then we try to resolve the conflict with my parents before we even got to the point where we needed to leave the show. So that was our first step of like, okay, this is not okay. We need to stand our ground and then later,

work sorting through things and facing a lot of backlash, little things even that other people would say are little, but huge in my circle of like wearing pants and nose ring and leaving the show. We end up in this meeting with my parents that does not go very well and realize like you can't change other people. This is Sounds Like a Cult. A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Amanda Montel author of the books Cultish the Language ofaticism, and the forthcoming the Age of Magical Overthinking. Every week on the show, you're going to hear about the different culty group from the cultural zeitgeist, from swifties to the Supreme Court, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult categories does it fall into?

Alive your life, a watcher back, or a get the fuck out. After all, the word cult is up to interpretation. It's my personal belief that we're living in the cultiest era of all time. For better and for worse, there is now a cult for everyone. And this week, I am amped because we're gonna be talking about the cult of reality TV families with two very special guests, none other than Jill and Derek Dillard.

They are a married couple that you might recognize from the smash hit controversial reality show on TLC, 19 Kids and Counting Jills. Former last name was Dagger, because she was one of the Dagger Sisters. Jill and Derek just co-authored a new memoir called Counting the Cost that gave a little peak behind the veil of what it felt like to grow up in a super super religious family on reality television. What a mind fuck! They're so transparent and generous and also, they seem to be doing pretty well. Despite having defected from, I would already say one of the most

fucked up types of cults that we've ever covered on the show. Not only being in a super dogmatic, oppressive, family situation that made getting the fuck out almost impossible, but having to do so in public on reality TV without getting hate, they aren't therapy. They're gonna talk about that later in the interview, but I would be in more therapy than exists on this earth. They're doing well, though, spoiler alert. This is not a depressing episode of Sounds Like A Cult. But let me set the scene for a second,

because we've covered other sort of like culty corners of the reality TV sphere on the show before, like the real housewives and the bachelor, and none of those shows even hold a candle to the type of show that we're talking about today. I'm specifically referring to these types of shows about extraordinary families or like really weird families, families that like are abnormal for one reason or another,

but still relatable and wholesome, that would air mostly on TLC. So we're talking, of course, John and K plus eight. Here comes honey boo boo teen mom sister wives, little people big world out-dawnered welcome to plathville. And each of these families was unique for one reason or another, whether it was because they were super religious and had a million kids like with the doggers and the plaths.

Objectively, this is such an unbelievably creepy genre of television. You could argue that it's there to teach viewers about different kinds of families after all TLC stands for the learning channel, but TLC these days could more accurately stand for the leering channel, because Lord knows growing up, I was obsessed with the genre of television like I could not look away from sister wives not because I was necessarily trying to learn a little bit a little bit but mostly I was just like rubber necking the way that I would rubber neck at the nexium docus series. I mean with the dungers in particular. On screen, you see this like super, super religious family that dresses all their kids the same.

You see like an image of all these children lined up wearing like identical Christmas dresses. Their names all start with the letter J, the tenets that they live by are so unquestioned and governed by principles that the average American family is probably not on board with at all. Objectively like it looks like a cult, it sounds like a cult, it smells like a cult, but everybody is fine with it. No, not only were they fine with it, viewers like myself, we loved it. We became totally attached to it. We wanted it to continue. To me, this was like taking the kind of sinister cult story and

dressing it up as this like hunky-dory all-American family tale and I'm complicit. I ate that shit up Anyone who's been listening to this pod for a while knows that my favorite documentary growing up was Jesus camp about the like fundamentalist evangelical summer camp and what was it, Missouri, where kids learned to speak in tongues and protest against abortion. It was just like beyond fucked up and I was obsessed with learning about it. These shows like Sister Wives and the Duggers

that went on for seasons and seasons and seasons and seasons, it was like a bottomless well of Jesus Camp type content. Like how could I look away from that? So I can't wait to get into the interview a little later because it's so interesting to hear from literal survivors of this literal cult, what their experience was like, and to learn from them, how bad is this cult really? But I do kind of want to provide

some context. There are reality TV families on other networks like A&E, but I am going to kind of be focusing on TLC for this moment because that's the network that really sort of pioneered this freaky astrogenra. So as I mentioned, TLC was once upon a time known as the learning channel and it used to be a fitting name because it was a network that aired documentaries and like educational content. But that kind of changed in the late 90s

when the network figured out that reality TV was about to have a moment. And so they were like, okay, let's kind of pivot from these like semi-boring documentaries to something more voyeuristic. And once they made that rebrand, that's when TLC became the TV Titan AKA cult that it is today. So they started airing like really controversial series that

were kind of shocking as a stunt, such as toddlers and TRs. Again, I was so fucking obsessed. What is wrong with me? I love toddlers and piars. They also had my strange addiction, extreme cheap skates, and extreme couponing. The network was just kind of like shameless and really savvy about capturing these bizarre subcultures, but also making them feel kind of innocent so that the viewer didn't have to feel guilty watching them. Now, critics have certainly criticized TLC for creating this, again, super-voyeristic style of TV that totally lacks nuance, and for trivializing slash making a spectacle out of,

you know, pretty serious societal issues like poverty, disability, body image, mental health. So arguably, it was the show, John and Kate Plus Eight, that really lit up America's obsession with reality shows about freakishly large families. That show premiered in 2007, and it paved the way for similar series.

Obviously, if something is going amazing, you're gonna wanna reinvent it in hopes that lightning will strike twice. And for TLC, lightning has been striking. But of course, whenever there's a shockingly fast skyrocket to success, what goes up must come down and controversy is sure to follow. So John and Kate, I'm sure most people know,

but they are these parents of IVF sex tablets. They also had a pair of older twins. Their show was unbelievably popular. They were like the fucking Brangelina of TLC. Of course they got divorced, just like Brangelina did. And John tried removing his children from the cult of reality TV altogether, citing understandably that it was unhealthy for them. But did Kay pull her kids from the cult of reality TV

families, of course not, because it's like a golden handcuff situation. She was probably like raking in cash. She totally devoted her life to being this famous reality TV mom lifestyle inflation happened. She's like dependent psychologically and financially on this cult. But then over the years, more and more victims

of the cult of reality TV families started coming out and telling their truth. In 2020, the youngest son from the show, Little People Big World, which was like, a reality TV show about a family whose parents and one of their kids had different forms of dwarfism. The youngest son Jacob Rolloff came out and alleged that he was sexually abused by a member of the show's production team. And he wrote the statement on Instagram that I find

extremely colty. He said, I continue my own contemplation on the voyeurism involved in the entire enterprise of reality television. A massive spectacle of drama and pain and argument and invasion with a little joy sprinkled over, that viewers watch completely dissociated from the complex humans inside the simplistic characters they see on TV. And this sort of facade, this like false promise of this perfect image of a family with just enough imperfection to make it interesting. There is something so culty about taking these families, blunting them into characters. And I'm talking about the networks, not crimes,

but the networks of sins here, forcing them to be beholden to those characters, and sort of like coercing them into thinking that they can't get out, that they'll be nothing if they don't participate in this reality TV show, even if they're in pain because of anything from the grueling hours to the pressure and criticism and bullying as a result of us voyeuristic viewers. But the toll that reality television takes on it, families, like your family is like the most intimate personal thing to you. It's like private. You know, I don't even post about my family, well, I did just have my dad on episode

sounds like a cult. But if you're in a reality TV show about your family, it's not like going on the real world where you don't know who to trust in the house, but you like just met these strangers two months ago or two weeks ago. If the reality show that you're on is about your family and you're a kid who didn't even consent

to being on the show, now all of a sudden you like can't trust the motives of your own parents. How traumatic is that? And speaking of the consent stuff, we've talked about the Kugan laws before on the show when we talked about the cult of child stars, when we talked about the cult of mom, fluencers. But I didn't realize that while child stars on narrative scripted shows are protected

in terms of how much they get paid and how many hours they're allowed to work. That's not true for kids on reality TV. They are not protected by the same child labor and performance laws. I mean, with kids that are on reality TV and kids that are on YouTube and become really famous and their parents become really wealthy and stuff, it's just the Wild West. And most child reality stars, who sometimes are way more famous

than kids on scripted TV. They oftentimes don't have separate contracts from their parents. So that renders them totally helpless in terms of like what money that they're owed. And if their parents happen to have like strong moral compasses and we're like, okay, we're gonna set up a trust for you for college or whatever. Great. But a lot of families, especially if you're a super religious patriarchal family like the Duggers,

they're not gonna do that. You're completely at the will of your parents who have been corrupted by the network to do whatever it takes to maintain the Surreality TV fame. In the case of the Duggers specifically, this lack of protection financially was exacerbated and may even more harmful when combined with the family's fundamentalist ideals, which forced children into subservience whether they're on reality

TV or there's a bunch of money involved or not. So the duggers have been on television for so long and have been the subject of like immense glory and immense shame. And there was just a documentary that came out about them called shiny happy people. Basically, 19 kids and counting followed the daily quotidian lives of the parents, Jim Bob and Michelle, and their eventual 19 kids. It went on for 10 seasons between 2008 and 2015. And on the outside, the series presented this very like cohesive family unit. They have this like amazingly organized pantry

to feed all the kids. Like they know exactly what their chores should be. The documentary reveals that despite the perfect facade. And when a facade is that perfect, it's like you know some fucked up shit has to be going on underneath the service. And indeed it was because the reason why 19 kids and counting ended are really pivoted

was because the family and the larger religious fundamentalist group that they were a part of was hit with major allegations of sex abuse, child abuse, financial exploitation. Where to begin enumerating the culty aspects of the situation? First of all, before 19 kids and counting, Jim Bob, and I cannot say that name with a straight face,

it's just such a funny name for a villain type character, like Maleficent, Kwella Deville, Jafar, Jim Bob. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh Jim Bob. Oh, okay. Jim Bob was a politician. He served for years as a Republican Arkansas state representative. He ran for a seat in the US Senate. And he was also, and still is, a member of this fundamentalist Christian group called the IBLP. You'll hear more about it from Jill and Derek.

But basically it's an extremely controlling sect that basically said that children must remain subservient to their parents forever. They are obligated to reproduce as many children as possible. You're on like the tightest leash in terms of your behavior, your personality. You can't even like fucking wear pants if you're a woman. All kids have to be homeschooled, you're not even allowed to watch TV, LOL. So basically in 2015, it came out that there had been a decade old police report stating the Duggers' eldest son Josh had sexually abused at least five girls, including two of his sisters, and Jill was one of those alleged victims.

So following that scandal, 19 kids and counting was canceled, but instead of TLC just retreating, looking their wounds, whatever, they launched a bunch of spin-offs, focusing on Jill and Jessa, like, oh, okay, I'm so sorry, here we'll make up for it by giving you a reality show. The spin-off about Jill's wedding in particular was at the time the highest rated show in TLC history, but Jill later revealed that neither she nor any of her siblings ever received any financial compensation for appearing on these shows. Jim Bob reportedly got paid millions, according to this documentary, shiny happy people. In the end, Jill had to beg to receive any of it, and what she got was in low six figures. It was like barely anything that she was owed.

The conclusion of the story with the eldest brother Josh was that in 2021, he was convicted on child pornography charges, and he's currently serving 12 years in federal prison in Texas. So I guess like someone in the cult is experiencing some accountability, but Jim Bob is still chilling like sitting on his pile of gold. And this is what I keep thinking about is like what's so unbelievably fucked up about the cult of religious reality TV families in general is that it's already enough to be in a family where you cannot be yourself, where someone who's supposed to be very close to you is attempting to control you.

Every time you try to push back or assert yourself the nice way, they manipulate you, or basically threaten that if you leave, I'll take everything you own and destroy your life. Like being in the cult of a relationship like that is hard enough. Now there's the dimension of the public Like being in the cult of a relationship like that is hard enough. Now there's the dimension of the public who are in the cult in one sense.

I mean, obviously like TLC had them in the palm of their hand, but they're also perpetuating the cult because they feel like they know you. But of course, they only know the version of you that was portrayed on the air and they seem like they might care about you, but how could they really? What they definitely care about

is this piece of entertainment that they've fallen in love with and gotten so used to. So for Jill, there were essentially multiple pressures coming from every angle, keeping her from leaving the cult of reality TV families, not to mention the internal psychological pressure of ironically getting the fuck out of the cult

would require you to confront the guilt of not getting the fuck out sooner. It's such a tricky pickle. And even though Jill's experience was so unique, I think it's actually relatable. And I mentioned earlier that she and Derek seemed to be doing well, and you'll be able to hear it in our interview, but I truly think it's because they have each other. And this is why this is a relatable story, because whether you're in a manipulative cult-like job situation, or romantic relationship, or spiritual group, or like, I don't know,

fucking online forum or whatever it is, it's so important to have someone who cares about your well-being on the outside to help you strategize how to get the fuck out when you finally had enough, like Jill did, because Lord knows it might be messy and yet it's worth it to get out of the cult. You know what I mean? But is the cult of reality TV families always a get the fuck out or is it more of a watch or back? Or am I being dramatic and it's really just a living life?

That's what we're here to try and figure out today. So without further ado, I am very excited to introduce you to our interview today. Jill and Derek Dillard have an adorable family now they have three kids. They like are still religious, but they're doing it more their own way now. They're kind of estranged from the Duggar family, but they have each other. They have their family. they have their freedom, and they have a new book out documenting their experiences. It's called counting the costs. So yeah, here is our interview.

Jill and Derek, could you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your new book? Yeah, so I am Jill Dillard. I'm Derek Dillard. And we just wrote a book called Counting the Cost. It's a memoir, so tells about my life growing up in the Dugor family as the fourth born of 19 children. Derek and I met on the show. We had our first baby as part of that, our wedding, like all of the things. All of our early relationship from the time we began, what we would call dating, but it called courting for the purposes of the show. Until after, we were pregnant with our second child. Wow, so many milestones on television.

You said that it was called courting for the purposes of the show. Was it called courting for the purposes of your life, or was that kind of language that you were supposed to use for the purposes of the show? That was the language that I grew up hearing because my family was part of a group called IBLP, the Institute and Basic Life Principles,

and that was kind of, they didn't coin the phrase, obviously it's like an old term. When we were approaching dating and all of that, it was this whole like purity culture movement thing that used the old term as a phrase that was very known in my circles. So growing up, that's what we called it. But at the same time, I feel like the show really hung on to the term,

according because they're like, oh, they like... Anything that's different. Anything that's different, or like, people would be like, oh, wow, that's weird. Like, for lack of a better expression, yeah. For sure, because it's TLC people would be like, oh wow, that's weird. Like for lack of a better expression. A wow factor. Yeah. For sure. Cause it's TLC, it's like voyeuristic.

For those who don't know, could you explain how the opportunity of making your reality show about your family came your way? Who made the decision to move forward with that and like why it seemed like a good idea? Yeah. and like why it seemed like a good idea. Yeah, my parents, Jim Bob and Michelle Dugger, started having kids like four years into marriage and then kind of came to the conclusion that they didn't want to prevent having children as part of like their religious views.

And so they had a bunch of kids and about one or two, sometimes because they were two sets of twins every year. Anyway, my dad was involved in politics in the local state government and through that got some attention from local media and then from national media when he ran for US in it in 2002. All the kids were all dressed the same. Yeah, so that picture was like printed in the New York Times, which then was picked up

by Parents Magazine, which was then picked up by Discovery Health Channel, turned into TLC later. Anyways, we did a documentary, one time documentary with Discovery Health Channel way back when there were only 14 children. After the 14 children thing became a big deal on their television network. Then they came back and did four more one-time documentaries. And then that was around the time that reality TV shows were really becoming a thing. And they asked if they could start the series about our family. 17 kids and counting I think

was the first series after those five documentaries. And then from there 18 kids and counting I think was the first series after those five documentaries and then From there 18 kids accounting 19 kids and counting and then the show was canceled and then it came back Jill and Jessi counting on and then dropped Jill and Jessi and then it was counting on until it was canceled a couple years ago So when all the boys were present that kind of ended all of it. Yeah, sure Yeah, that'll put a damper on your reality TV career. So in my mind, there seems to be a sort of clash in terms of the sort of like humble, God serving values of Christianity

and the very like hyper individualist, profit driven pursuit of reality TV. And I'm wondering like in the family, like how are those two ideas squared? Or was that not seen as a clash? Yeah, so that's a good point, but it very much was in line with the values because the values were the overall goal of a ministry.

My family really talked and thought about it as a TV ministry. So we thought about it as like, look at this platform that we can reach other people for Christ and this is a great opportunity. So we're going to be in the world, but not of it type thing. So we're not advocating for the same things

that are on television, but we can be a bright light and a dark world type thing. And that felt very like purposeful and authentic for you at the beginning. That's what it felt like at the time. That's what it was originally. I mean, after a while it became more like a laborious thing that had exciting parts to it, of course. But it became something that was more, especially more so as Derek and I were trying to make lives for ourselves and our little family. Whenever we ran into things that clashed with the overall goal of my parents and the show,

that's when we had more issue with it because we didn't really have choice. Further, we went along in our journey. The more the blinders came off and we realized the whole ministry thing was more just like you said, a way to reconcile to simulate like opposing objectives. And it really became more apparent that it was a means to promote for lack of a better description, the cult itself. And I wouldn't even call it a Christian show. Like, the show itself was not a Christian show, it was more about promoting homeschooling, or promoting having as many kids as you can, or promoting. You need to dress a certain way and things like that. Like it was a good show or whatever,

like there wasn't a lot of. No, yeah, I mean, it was kid friendly. Like style. It was kid friendly. Like kind of on the same level as like Mr. Rogers never heard or something. Totally. You can turn it on and know that your kids aren't gonna be.

Hearing cuss words or something. Yeah, hearing cuss words, they might be brainwashed, but I don't know what you just don't want. Yeah, that's like, I mean, it sounds like you came to a lot of realizations together hearing cuss words, they might be rain wash, but I mean, it sounds like you came to a lot of realizations together and that you were real support for one another in terms of like kind of getting out of the situation, which can be so hard to do on your own. But what were some of the religious values that you grew up with that maybe you don't subscribe to anymore? And how did your family come to like embrace those particular values. So there's this guy called build gothard who started initially just a group called the Institute and Basic Life Principles. He would go around and speak to large groups of people about having control of your kids hearts and helping prevent problems and kind of

counteracting a lot of the hippie movement. He's like, no, it's good to have rules and gained a lot of popularity way back in the day. Well then he came up with this home school program called ATI that was kind of like, hey if you do these things this will help you maintain a level of authority in your children's lives. It was very appealing. It wasn't just like you come live at this place and nobody eats bread or something. Like it was like, it was very, that just sounds like a lay. You know, like it's like, it was, it's, it homelessed a lot of things. It was fun. One exciting and you have a community. Like you said earlier about how everyone has this desire for community and for belonging. In a lot of ways, that's what this offered to people who otherwise seemed very awkward

and out of place. Jill talking about as a child, the first time they saw people that looked like them and they didn't feel weird, was at these different events in either ATI, the Advanced Training Institute, on the homeschooling side of the Institute and Basic Life Principles, the umbrella organization, I even liken it to like if you have like an Apple product, like you feel like you have to have like an Apple iPhone to go with it in a MacBook and like everything

syncs with each other, it's like, we're all ready. We're Mac people. We're Mac people. We're Mac people, we're on a Mac Air right now and I haven an iPhone. But it just makes your life a lot easier, one of the things to each other. And you get all the same products from the same company.

And to me it seems like with this organization, it's like, oh, if you're already an institute and basic life principles, now we have a homeschooling option that you can do to and incorporate that into your life. Yeah, it's called a closed system. And I'm so glad that you made that Apple comparison because we did an episode on the Cult of Apple products. Just highlight how it works the same. You know, it really does such a good analogy.

It's just like, you know, the stakes and consequences and the aesthetic and like how much it's accepted is very different. Okay, so being on reality TV is like such a unique experience. And when you're a religious family that a lot of people are kind of like ogling, I'm wondering if the very fact of being on reality TV made the values in your family more extreme in any way.

Like how was that relationship between the actual values you grew up with and the fact of being on reality TV? Yeah, so that's one interesting thing. We did not grow up with television in our home. So we had internet eventually and all of that, but we didn't grow up like watching ourselves on TV. I mean, occasionally we grabbed the rabbit ears out of the closet or something and put it on our little TV that didn't have any signal otherwise and listen to like a presidential debate or like 9-11, you know I remember that. But overall we didn't just watch ourselves on TV or anything, but I will say that yes I think that these rules and things that IBLP taught were emphasized more because then you have a platform and a reputation at stake. If you don't protect that, then everything you're saying and preaching, per se, like on this

ministry platform of the show is going to be attacked if you don't live what you're preaching. And so the pressure already was there just because of the group pressure that we were in and The way that we were raised, but you added TV show to that and it definitely makes that more intense Which was very unhealthy and almost fed that control because if something were Changed on the show you'd have to address it. The producers would want you to. If somebody, if one of the main themes is like, we all wear this type of clothing, and then someone pops up not wearing that type of clothing, that would put the pressure on her dad. And then it almost like feeds that idea that like reality TV is staged because in some ways,

certain aspects of it become more and more staged because you're maintaining that theme of, this is how we act and we don't want to be asked to address it. So you end up having to live almost like a lie if like, like, what if we don't want to college? Either that or don't change, like it's a big deal. Oh my gosh, yeah, I never really thought about that. And I think anyone who has a public platform, whether they're religious or not,

they've cultivated a brand, right? Like that's why they have an audience. And at a certain point, no matter're religious or not, they've cultivated a brand, right? Like, that's why they have an audience. And at a certain point, no matter what your values are, you become beholden to that, or else the public will call it out, and they'll call you a hypocrite. And they'll say, like, you're inconsistent, or you're inauthentic, you couldn't change if you wanted to, because there would not only be

private backlash, but public backlash, even among people who actually disagree with you. It's very imprisoning. Yeah, it is. And so you have to be confident enough or live double or does not change at all. And that's really what led us to kind of breaking away. We were seeing how this was harmful to people who had this romanticized idea from their viewing the show and just having a certain idea of what they thought

the brand was and they were wanting to pursue the brand instead of what was actually happening. And we felt the responsibility to come out and say, hey, this is harmful. These aspects are harmful. And we felt like there was also a responsibility because it was easier for us to break away. Like, it's harder if somebody's in a position where if they buck the system,

then they're really kind of left hung out to dry. Like, they don't have like a place to land. If everything is kind of reliant upon that system, and like the more gravity it gains, the harder it is to break away from something like that. Yeah, yeah. Can you talk more about what that point was when you really decided, like, okay, we need to take a step back from all of this, from the TV show aspect. I think Jill, you mentioned that your dad really didn't want

you to step away. Could you talk about that moment? Yeah, basically it came down to where Derek and I were trying to make decisions for our life. And we had tried to do that and still continue the whole filming and show thing for a while, but it got to the point where it And we had tried to do that and still continue the whole filming and show thing for a while. But it got to the point where it was just not possible to do both. So either we were gonna sit on our hands and just like continue being submissive or whatever and just ride it out. Not do what we wanted to do. Yeah, and alter our plans or we were gonna pursue what we felt like we were being called to do. And that was not an alignment with the plans that other people had for us. So we got into a knockdown drag out kind of thing with my dad,

where initially it was them asking us to come back for a promotional shoot that was usually an annual thing, but we were in Central America. Then they told us like, hey, we need you to come back for this promotional shoot, the network, and my dad. And when we said, hey, we'll do it when we get back, or you can come here to us and we'll meet you in a hotel or whatever. It was the first time that I had said no and like stood my ground on it. I later realized that in therapy because we saw out a counselor who kind of helped us work through a lot of this and process so much.

And then we try to resolve the conflict as well with my parents before we even got to the point where we needed to leave the show. So that was our first step of like, okay, this is not okay, we need to stand our ground. That was the first time we stood our ground. And then later, we're kind of sorting through things and facing a lot of backlash, little things even

that other people would say are little, but huge in my circle, like wearing pants and nose ring and all of that and leaving the show. And anyway, we end up in this meeting with my parents that does not go very well and realize like you can't change other people and you have to be okay with other people not being okay with you sometimes and with yourself not being okay sometimes as well. Because in this culture it was very much not okay to be at odds with your parents because they're your authority spiritually and everything so working through that.

And there's so much. Yeah. I mean like that first confrontation when Jill first said no to her dad, like the manipulation was so bad that like, whenever it was all said and done that day, and I'm sure this is in the book too, but like, you know, Jill's crying, saying, are we gonna go to jail?

I'm like, no, we're not gonna go to jail. Like it's- I haven't made a dime at this point. This is ridiculous. We've not made anything else. Oh my God, I mean, it's wild, because like, I've never been through an experience, like what you've been through,

but I can relate to what you're describing so much. And I think anyone who's ever been in a really, really formative relationship, whether it's with a parent or a boss or whatever it is, that feels like you can't say no and you've never said no to them. And all of a sudden, now you stand up for yourself and the repercussions are so intense.

You feel like even though there's objectively there's no chance you could go to jail or die or anything, that's one of those exit costs is just like this incredible paranoia. It's actually such a relatable story even though the circumstances are extraordinary. I mean, that was one of the reasons why we wrote the book is because the more we

shared with people as we kind of gained some more momentum in sharing our story, everyone thought they could relate on some level. Finding your voice, it's part of maturing. Yeah, and that was, again, that was one of the aspects of the manipulation was part of control and inequality is making people think that nobody else can relate to you so you have nowhere to go. Like if you try and tell your friends about the show, like they're not going to understand, they don't have a show. So, no one's going to get it.

So you just need to not talk about any of this with anybody else outside of our circles our family and that's just not true. It's a lie because so many things people can relate with. There's nothing new under the sun. Everyone has relationships that have these common themes. Exactly. Talk about if you can isolate somebody, then you can control them.

And so whether it's intentional or not is not the issue. It's like, no, you just, you've got to get counsel from other people outside the situation, because that's the hard part is like finding not just yes people but finding people that are where you want to be and that are going to provide you solid counsel. Yeah I love how you mention going through therapy and and how much that was helpful and I I really like how you mentioned to like being okay with displeasing someone. It's

so hard and I'm like this, I just like, I just want people to like me, I don't want people to be upset with me, but that's not a healthy dynamic, it actually feeds into the cultishness even more, it doesn't make it better. And I am a full believer in giving people the benefit of the doubt or not assuming the worst up until a point, but also a situation isn't always going to improve just because you really want to. Like, that's an important lesson too, because that's just magical thinking. And now a quick word from our sponsors. Okay, picture this. You're hanging out in your favorite spot, headphones on, and the environment around you fades away. When listening to Dipsy stories,

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And I was wondering if you could describe some of the financial exploitation that was going on for you. I'll kind of light some groundwork and then joke to finish up this. So we weren't stupid. We knew we weren't getting paid. People were like, well, why are you doing it? If you weren't getting paid, it's like we're like helping out her family. And there's also there's a given take to that. Like because we knew that we're just trying to help out. And there was no, no strings attached that we could at whatever point and move to another country or take a different

job or do something that was conflict with filming, we would just like kind of bow out at that point. But until we get to that point, for the first years of our marriage, like we'll help out when we can, and then once we can... We were doing a lot. Yeah, and we were doing a lot. Like 20 hours a week, on average, and a lot of the storylines were based around our lives, and the freedom that comes and like not getting paid is that we have freedom to like change direction, and that was not the paid is that we have freedom to change direction that was not the case. Once we get to that point.

Yeah, yeah, especially growing up on television, I mean, I had been on the show as a minor for years and for my siblings as well, there was like no path to really have a voice. We tried to communicate with the network and they basically told us you have to have your dad's people as part of the process, which was really sad and messed up in the reality TV world. And in this culture growing up, like you never question the authority of your parents. So that was also there.

I was also in my, I mean, there were lots of sets of the children in my family, but at the older group, like, I was very passive and very people pleasing. My nickname was sweet, gilly muffin. So like, I was always that person, so trying to please my parents and gain their approval. Like we were saying earlier, like up to this point, we were just helping out, like, within married for years, and like, we were gonna do what we could do to not rock the boat with my new wife's family. And this is something that she's kind of grown up with. And I love how typical good Sun and Law behavior

is like, I'll take out the trash. I'll pick up the grandkids from school. Yours is like, I will appear on national television. I mean, I don't want to give anyone a reason to not like us and be like, I also. The very first daughter to get married. So my brother had been married for several years, but I was the first daughter. So I think that also had a lot to do.

Yeah. And you were the only son-in-law. People I hear sometimes like comments about, well, they're just, it's all about the money or whatever. We weren't trying to get paid for the first years of our marriage. Like, and it was only when we realized that we were asked to give up something. We had an opportunity and we had to give up our plans for a number of years. And once we were once we were-

It's lost a job. Yeah, it's lost a job. Once we realized that, I'm like, well, if we're being required to give up this level of our life, there should be a level of compensation for it. But whenever we gently proposed that, it was like slap back in our face and basically as we pursued that, it was apparent really quickly. Joe was not going to get paid anything near what it was worth for the decade plus she had been on TV, but it was a matter of principle at that point. So even if it ended up being about minimum wage, which is what it accounted to. It was a matter of the principle,

because even in trying to push for that amount, it was way, way, I mean, way, way, way below, it would have been worth, even that was resisted. And so I was like, We were made out to be greedy and old, like you're cut out of the inheritance and stuff like that for asking. But if you were, if you're going to work every day,

if you're going to work it every day, and at the end of the month, you got paid, and your boss was like, what are you all about the money? And I was like, if you're going to work at every day, and at the end of the month, you got paid, and your boss was like, what are you all about the money? And it's like, no, but I'm being asked to come here every day and do this work. So, like, it shouldn't need justification.

It's like, if you don't get it, it can't be explained. Yeah, yeah. It's like if the tables were turned, like they would never agree to something like that. So it's just crazy to think that that was okay. Or even people with recently with our book, they're like, so where are you gonna donate the proceeds from your book?

Like, well, why would you, would it be weird if like whenever it came payday for your job, if someone said, well, where are you gonna donate your paycheck? It's like, well, don't you need food to eat? Like, I think people, well, hopefully people are becoming wiser to this, but I think people automatically think

that if you're famous, you're rich, and it's just simply not the case. If anything, especially the first years of our marriage is like, I felt like we were in a worse off position because you have your day job that's bringing in 100% of your income for your family, and this is something that's 20 hours a week that's taking away from that and making you more stressed

and more exhausted. Everyone else at your office is going home and enjoying the weekend. You're being asked to do interviews until midnight. Oh my gosh, it's truly awful. So much better to be rich and not famous. Okay, so but speaking of the whole like filming aspect, your family is not the only family that's been documented on reality TV this way. You know, there's of course like the John and Kate franchise and there was sister wives and welcome to Plathville. And I definitely consumed this content. And I will under what your perspective is

on why these types of shows keep getting made. And do you think that their existence is damaging? You're talking about the voyeurism aspect of it. It reminds me of we recently watched the Truman Show. Uh-huh. It's very much like that. I think what's kind of helped summarize a lot of it, the damaging aspects of it,

was the part where they're interviewing the producer of the Truman Show. Like, I know you like to keep a very private life, so we'll keep this brief for whatever. He is expecting his privacy to be respected, but then he's exploiting this person from the time they're born until adulthood. I think the important thing is that they don't have a choice in it, and with kids, they don't have a choice in it. So as an adult, like, if you want to make that decision for yourself, that's great.

That's different. But I think you do have to recognize,. It's the same way with YouTube channels or social media at all like I don't even know where the where the line should be. I think it's different for different people. I think at whatever point Like it becomes dependent upon the kids and their role. I can't function without like it can't function without like that was what was Damaging about her family was like when we tried to leave you like, the show will not be the show if you're not on it so you have to be on it. So like, if the show can't is canceled it's because of you. Yeah, like we're told that if that's not for you, so. If the show's canceled, you want to be the one everyone looks at and like you're the reason

why this all stopped. And then as far as like reality TV or whatever, John and Kay, little people, big world, whatever, like all these reality TV shows that are very popular. I think it's just because people can find an element that they can relate to, and that's not always bad. Like sometimes it can be helpful, and there's that draw there.

I can relate to this, and then there's that like extra weird factor or whatever, where there's this element that's different about it, right? That keeps you coming back. So it's not all like, oh, this is all a terrible idea, but I think like Derek's saying, like you do have to be careful,

whether it's even for yourself or for your kids, what's that tipping point where you're just sold out to it and it can be with social media too. Like you need to constantly be reevaluating and seeing like, okay, am I in a healthy place? Do I need to take a break? And sometimes that's hard to do if you're in a contractor literally like signed up, signed

your life away for something. But at least you have that awareness and hopefully you've had some decision making in that. And I don't know if this is the case based on looking at what's out there. It seems like networks like prey on people at what's out there, it seems like networks like prey on people in vulnerable situations who, whether it's like financially, it's like, oh, they don't have any reason not to say no. So like if we go to somebody in their house and being foreclosed on and their entire financial straights, but they're some interesting aspect of your life and we can like capitalize on

that, they have no choice but to say yes. I know now that you say it, when I think about it, there are so many of these shows on TLC and similar networks where the subject on TV is not a particularly bougie family. It's like there are so many families that, yeah, you're saying they are relatable,

but they're also vulnerable. There's such a weird dichotomy between shows about like the super, super quote unquote elite rich, real housewives, Kardashians, which like, you know, that's a big thing. And usually like you have less say in how you're portrayed with the lower ones, but then like the super bougie, whatever, one of the advantages to having

the financial independence is you can say, if it's not gonna be this way, then we're stepping away. So like networks have less control in those situations because they're like, okay, we'll, we'll, they'll bow to you more. We'll bow to you more because like, we'll do more.

Yeah, because the people want you by then. So you've got your hook in them to some degree. Right, that's so interesting because like we did an episode on the cult of the real housewives. And some real housewives become their, I mean, they're motivated by fame and clout and money to some degree, but not in the same way. It's just to become more rich, not to become financially stable, but they are able to gain so much power in the favor of producers and such to control their own destiny more than

maybe a welcome to plathil situation. But that kind of brings me to one of my last questions, which is about the power structure. So we often on this podcast try to break down the power dynamics of any given cult of the week, whether we're talking about swiftees or something more insidious. In a reality TV family or in your experience, who would you say are the leaders in this quote unquote cultish scenario? I mean, I would say definitely the viewers are giving the ratings. The network is a leader because they're calling the shots, but ultimately I think my dad had a lot of say-so hand in hand with the viewers because he could say like, here's what will provide you. And then once he has a contract deal,

then he's led by the network at that point. But he still had a lot of say so. You can have some negotiating power within like how a scene's gonna be, but you can't just say, if the network absolutely wants it, we're just not gonna film this daughter's wedding. If the network wants it, that's off time. I think it's easy to see who's in control

whenever you think of the fallout. So if we were to leave, then who's gonna take the brunt? Who's gonna respond? And it's probably the network and my dad. When we were getting so much pushback from her dad, Jill helped me put it in a perspective, and he's just acting like this because he's worried about getting fired. He's feeling the heat. He's

feeling the heat. Like one of the advantages, unfortunately, to the way he did it was like, like manipulating everyone was that the network only had to deal with one person, like he said, like a Pimp, he's like, I can give you the services of these families. I'm not going to ask them if they want to be involved in this on this level. But I will give you the services of these families. I'm not gonna ask them if they wanna be involved in this, on this level, but I will give you all the big life events of all these different kids in mind,

and they just have to deal with one person, they don't have to get agreement from everyone. But then it looks bad on him, if like in our situation, we just, we aren't aware of his agreement that he made to give our services over to them, and that's not in line with our family's plans and future.

And to be clear, it was just my services, like Derek never said anything. Yes, I never said anything. But like, obviously, like, as a married couple, if I moved to another country, I'm not going to leave my wife and kid behind. So, but he, like, put on the heat because it puts him in a bad situation because he's obligated Jill services for a certain period of years. And then if we're saying that's not going to drive with our family plans, he's already given them

his word. And he's basically going to get fired if he doesn't hold to his side of the deal that he provided her services. Yeah, so I think the network obviously has a lot of power. And then the viewers, because they're providing, so I think the network obviously has a lot of power and then the viewers because they're providing the ratings that make the network want to come back and say,

hey, let's sign another deal. So it's everybody right there. And then in the religious side of it, this group that we were a part of, they ended up ousting the founder because he was allegedly involved in a bunch of, well he was accused of like a lot of sexual misconduct. The way that organized the power structures was really conducive for single person wanting to manage a reality show. The IBLP teaches that like the father is the head of everything even after you're married. Yeah, if you have to get your parents blessings, though if you step out from under that you're opening yourself up to potential problems, harm, whatever. So it kind of keeps you in there like out of fear. That also came into play even with the show because like I said,

I was very people pleasing person. And then on top of that, having this religious view, it's one thing with if you're a little kid under your parents' roof, yes, you should obey them. They say, don't, you know, do your homework. Yeah, do your homework. But when you're an adult and you're not even under their roof, you're not under them financially, and they're still trying to call the shots or say that you have to get their approval

or they're blessing for everything, especially when you're in this like family business ministry thing with horrible structure. It's very messy. But the IBLP cult allowed the reality show to like probably persist a lot longer than it should have because everyone's like, oh well, we have to do what Jim Bob says, but even if we don't want to. Okay, so just one more question. Since parting from the life that you were leading before, what are some key lessons that you've taken with you? Like how are you moving forward?

Yeah, so there are a lot of positives. I think it's been nearly 10 years here where Derek and I have been working through this stuff slowly at first, not really realizing the depth of everything that I had grown up in and all until we face that resistance. But now moving forward, we have three kids that are young and so that's always fun. Three boys, I will add, they're very busy boys and so raising them, Derek's working as an attorney, you can tell what you're watching. I was just like one thing that we've grown in like,

relationally is just based on experience last 10 years is not to make a decision or a move as a couple until you're both in agreement. So I think early on like I was tempted to like push Jill more than I probably should have to be like, hey, this is weird, this is bad, this is but then like if we- But you also exercised a lot of patience. Early on, it would not have been healthy if I was like, no, you need to leave the show right now. This is toxic. Why are we doing this?

It would have harmed our relationship. And we saw that proved true too, once we were actually getting to moral on the same page and getting more pushback from her dad, he would say, who is this? Is you're not like this sweet, Julie Muffin? Is this you or Derek? Is this you or Derek who's behind all this or whatever? But like, that would be really harmful in a young marriage.

Yeah, I think that is a good point because we have talked with people one person in particular who was saying they tried to make some decisions too soon and press their spouse too soon. I think personally, they didn't say this, but they were telling us what they had done and what was going on. And yeah, the girl freaked out and like, she was already pregnant and married and she left and moved back home and she's like living at her parents house now pregnant and like,

just because that's like so ingrained in you. So I can see that saying, man, that's like, if your parents say in this I feel he cold like not every family is the same Like some might say no you're your own family, but like others might try to exercise that control that they've gotten So used to and say this is the wrong guy you married he's leading you to like wear pants now This is just so wrong and immoral and you need to move back home and this like you already face enough struggles as a young couple So I think one thing that has helped us going forward is like, you can give yourself space in time. Like you should not feel rushed into a decision. So even if you need space, a lot of times people will give you a little more grace too. On the other end, if you're not just like pointing fingers, you're the problem. But like, I need some space. Another thing that was

helpful, it was like two people when they become their own family, if you kind of decide like, what's our identity going to be as a couple, like not throw the baby out with the bath water and just be like, well, because this is part of this, then we don't want that either. But like you might say, well, I like that aspect of my childhood. So like we can make that our own, but we don't like this. And we're going to make, we're going to get rid of that completely. That's like toxic.

My sister, Ginger, who wrote a book earlier this year, she talked a lot about her faith journey and she talks about it as disentangling. So it's really hard. Like the process for anyone, regardless of where you land, it's hard and I get that. And like, I think honestly, a lot of it has to do with your triggers and processing that as well. One of the biggest things that we can teach our sons,

essay of sons, just because we don't have daughters. But like our three sons is to think for themselves. Like, if there's some things that we can teach our sons, I say a son just because we don't have daughters. But like our three sons is to think for themselves. Like if there's some things that like they get older and they realize we got wrong or like they feel or differently about that, then we want them to be able to think through those things and know, okay, this is true because it's true and this is a little bit different than the way

I might want to live and that's fine. And the more that I can help our kids, like they don't think about it too much now, they're eight, six and one. But as they get older, the more that I can help our kids, like they don't think about it too much now, they're 8, 6, and 1. But as I get older, the more that we can help them think for themselves, they can use those tools to kind of like work through these things. It's been something too where we,

going forward, have tried also to recognize the positives in our story. Because I think sometimes I will feel guilty with the hard parts of my story or feeling like both can't be valid at the same time but they can be and so one thing I point out in our book counting the cost is how it's kind of like roses and thorns like they're very rosy parts of your story and also sometimes very thorny parts so it's okay to acknowledge both our kids are gonna have things like that too where we get it wrong as parents. So moving forward, trying to

keep things in perspective, you're always telling me that Derek's always saying, keep it in perspective. Yeah, it's hard. There's a lot more complicated than that, but of course, but that's such a hopeful message and like no one's ever gonna figure it out and like suddenly have the answers, right? Like, and anyone who claims what they do is a go later Okay, Colties before we get into the verdict I wanted to tell you a little bit more about my new book the ageical Overthinking, notes on modern irrationality. It's a book where every chapter is dedicated to a different cognitive bias,

a kind of like deep rooted mental magic trick that we plan ourselves, which I use as a lens to explore some mysterious irrationality, plaguing the zeitgeist at large and my own life from how a bias called the halo effect can explain extreme cycles of celebrity worship and dethronement and how that phenomenon connects to our own attachments to our own mothers to how the sunk cost fallacy kept me in a toxic cult like relationship for many formative years of my life. The book basically highlights the advantages and pitfalls of magical thinking in the

Information age. How the sort of irrationalities and mysticism that we naturally have as human beings are Clashing with this particular information overloaded time. Chapter titles include, Are You My Mother Taylor Swift? That's the one on the Halo Effect. I swear I manifested this, a note on proportionality bias. Sorry I'm late, must be Mercury and Retrograde, a note on confirmation bias, and so many more. The book comes out April 9th, 2024, but it's available for preorder now. Even if you've never preordered a book in your life, I gently beg that you consider preordering this one because pre-orders are so important

for authors and I would appreciate it so, so much. I'm also going to be going on a book tour next year and another fun announcement is that I'm going to be launching a new podcast called Magical Overthinkers to pair with the books. So lots of good stuff on the horizon. If you want to pre-order the Age of magical overthinking and again, I please, please ask that you do. You can find the link in our show notes or just go to SimonandShooster.com. And if you want to keep up with news about the book, behind the scenes about the book as well as the forthcoming magical overthinkers podcast, you can do so on my newsletter, Amanda Montele.substac.com. I also just want to thank you all so much for your support of this podcast and of my last

book, Coltish, and I truly, truly can't wait for what's to come next. Okay, now onto Jill and Derek's Coltie Vibic. Okay, reality TV families. Do you think that they are a cult? And if so, are they a live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out level cult? I think it depends on the family. Yeah, I do too. Like along the spectrum, you've got like the bougie, whatever, and then you've got like the ones who are

preyed upon more by the networks where it's almost like the networks are more like the bad actor in those situations. Totally. So I thought there's even a spectrum of Montréal TV. For sure. I guess in this case, I would say if we had to put a label on the overall category, it might be a watcher back. Because some are worse than others. Yes, yeah, that's what I was leaning on. Okay, although I have nothing that this one is deatering dangerously close to a get the fuck out. Well, I just want to thank you both so much for being my guest on this episode of Sounds

Like a Cult. This is truly my favorite sort of topic to discuss. This sort of nexus between fringy, religious, cultishness, and fringy pop-culture cultishness. So thank you so much. Where can listeners keep up with you and your family and your work? So we are on social media, Facebook, Instagram, all the things, LinkedIn, Tinder. Okay. And then our book is also available wherever books are sold. We made New York Times best seller, so counting the cost. And recently on the list of top audiobooks.

Audible, yeah, audiobooks. And thank you guys for your support. Check it out counting the cost. Amazing. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty.

But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty.

But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty.

But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. But not too culty. This episode was edited and mixed by Jordan Moore of The Pod Cabin. Our theme music is by Casey Colbe. To join the Sounds Like a Colt? Colt. Follow the podcast on Instagram at Sounds Like a Colt Pod. You can find me on the internet on Instagram at Amanda underscore Montel or on substack at Amanda Montel.substack.com and feel free to check out my books. Coltish the language of fanaticism, words let a feminist guide to taking back the English language,

or the forthcoming, the age of magical overthinking, notes on modern irrationality. And if you like this show, feel free to give us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts. Give the gift of a new ride this yuletide! A bobcat compact tractor makes the perfect gift for the holidays! Get a free loader or 0% financing for 84 months through December 31st. Jingle all the way to bobcat of Toronto and Brampton today! for 84 months through December 31. Jingle all the way to Bobcat of Toronto and Brampton today.