Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of RuPaul's Drag Race

Episode Date: September 20, 2022

If you don’t worship at the altar of this week’s “cult,” then simply sashay away! One of the most intense, vicious, fabulous reality TV fandoms in history is that of the competition show that put drag queens on the mainstream map: RuPaul’s Drag Race. Season 6 and All-Star queen BenDeLaCreme joins Isa and Amanda to offer an inside look at the most cult-like aspects of Drag Race, from the time she was physically stalked by a fan to the producers’ truly bonkers manipulation techniques. The tea is piping hot!!! For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/CULT Go to Zocdoc.com/CULT and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. For 50% off your first Care/of order, go to TakeCareOf.com and enter code cult50 Check out jordanharbinger.com/start for some episode recommendations, OR search for The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Amanda Montell, author of the book Cultish the Language and Fanaticism. I'm Issa Medina and I'm a comedian. Every week on our show, we discuss a different zeitgeisty group that puts the cult in culture, from true crime lovers to geek, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? To join our cult and see cult memes and BTS pics, follow us on Instagram at SoundsLikeACultPod. You can join my Instagram, call it at Amanda underscore Montell.

And if you want to see me do live comedy or bump into Amanda at one of my shows, follow me on Instagram at Issa Medina, I-S-A-A-M-E-D-I-N-A-A. Feel free to check us out on YouTube where you can watch our show, see our faces, and you can also hit us up on Patreon if you want to listen to our episodes ad-free. You can find us there at Patreon.com slash SoundsLikeACult. We're going to be talking about the Cult of RuPaul's Drag Race and stick around because we're going to be talking to one of the most famous queens of all time, Ben Tela Krem, and she's going to tell us all the juicy tea.

But for now, this is going to be a fun one. I'm actually a little scared though because I'm intimidated by this fandom. Oh, for sure, it runs deep. I, embarrassingly enough, didn't really know much about the show until like three and a half years ago when I moved to LA and my roommate is like a diehard fan. So that's when I started watching with him. My little cousin is fully invested in the stand-up and it really means a lot to them, this show.

Like it is not just a show. That's because it connects so deeply with a lot of like queer youth, especially for like people who don't live in like more liberal metropolitan areas. It's like what they connect with on TV. We've been to a RuPaul's Drag Race watch party together. Yes, we have. At Gabby Dunn's house. That was our guest on the Cult of Feet episode.

For those who've been here for a while, Gabby had really good food at that party too. Really good snacks. Let's maybe explain for those who aren't super familiar what RuPaul's Drag Race is and what's so culty about it. RuPaul's Drag Race is a reality TV drag show. It's like the format of America's next top model, but for drag competition and drag performances, it's definitely considered the cultural artifact that brought drag into the ultra mainstream.

The show has been around for so long at first premiered in February of 2009. There's 14 seasons of RuPaul's Drag Race, over 190 episodes, several spin-off shows. I actually think it's so cool because it's really hard for a lot of live performers to make money and make a living, but this show has given a lot of these drag queens a place to create an audience so that they can like do this for a living. Drag queens essentially compete to win a prize and the title of America's next drag superstar. The most recent grand prize was $150,000 and a year's supply of Anastasia cosmetics. So out of all the drag queens in the country, a handful get picked and every week the contestants

participate in a variety of challenges like acting and designing literal outfits from scratch, showing them and then performing in them, doing comedy, they can choose the kind of performances that they want to do. Kind of like a beauty pageant on steroids. Yeah. I mean that's what drag is, right? It's like this caricature of feminine presentation. Yeah.

So after the main challenge of that episode is the runway strut, which is where they strut down the runway and then they get ranked. And if you're in the bottom two of that week's episode, you have to lip sync for your life. You either get eliminated or you get to stay on another week. You know, we did mention that it really put drag on the mainstream map. It brought it into the homes of every American with cable television. But before RuPaul's Drag Race, this type of drag performance was really sort of on the fringes of society.

Drag history goes back many centuries, but RuPaul's Drag Race really centers on traditions from ballroom culture. That references these drag competitions whose heyday was in 1980s Harlem, New York. And these were events where mostly black and Latinx gay and trans performers could dress in this fabulous feminine clothing and walk the runway and find this close community and acceptance, which they were often missing at home or families they were born into. If you want to learn more about the root of drag culture and the early days of ballroom culture, I would recommend the documentary Paris is Burning.

It was one of the first films that my cinematography professor in college had us watch. And I was like, wow, I have chills just thinking about that documentary. It's so raw and real and beautiful, couldn't recommend it enough. So much amazing pop culture originated from ballroom culture, the ballroom scene, including the vogue style of dance. Yes. No, it did not come from Madonna, plus all our treasured sling terms like work, reading, facebeat, hunting, extra, gagging, serving realness.

Like how you're saying them all, just very verbatim, you're like, yes, gagging, serving, realness, go off queen. Let's get into why we decided to cover RuPaul's Drag Race on Sons Look at Cold. It's just so clearly culty, like the show and the following have built their own language. There's literally a drag race dictionary. The fan base is infamous for being obsessive and extensive. Like there are Reddit forums and all the episodes are analyzed and critiqued like a very much in detail.

And then the performers and the people who participate in that season are then followed by people, obviously on social media, but like the fandom, they will die for the queens that they admire. 100%. Yes. They will defend their favorite queens at all costs. And because many of these competitors, these drag queens come in with the social media following already, they have a dedicated fan base that obviously explodes exponentially

after they're on the show, but fans feel a really intimate connection with the people on screen again, because this is such a passionate community that has kind of these high stakes survival related roots. Yeah. It's truly like one of those reality shows whose fandom is intimidating because they're just so fanatical and so knowledgeable and such little sleuths low key, they almost make you feel bad when you don't know certain things. Like obviously, like I had so much fun at Gabby's watch party, but I felt a little intimidated

going in because I haven't seen all the seasons. So I think the watch party that we went to was an all star watch party. So the all star season is when like winners or performers of past seasons get invited back. Through fans are coming back with like throwbacks and like references from the past because it's also inherently queer culture. There is this thing of how queer are you? You know what I mean?

Are you a part of the queer community kind of thing? There are those subtle undertones. I mean, you and I talk about gatekeeping in the LGBTQ plus community all the time. Because bisexuals are famously erased. I literally saw this comedian the other day do a bit about how bisexual people are so annoying. I think it's funny when a bisexual person is doing the joke because it's like self-degrading or whatever.

But this girl goes on. Self-degradation is hilarious. But this girl goes on to be like, Pride is over, but don't worry, bisexual awareness week is coming up. It's not like they don't get enough attention already. And then I was like, oh, that's kind of funny. And then she was like, I'm straight, but I hate bi people. And I was like, really, you are projecting.

I was like, that's the gayest thing I've ever heard. And obviously, we just want to say keeping certain corners of queer community precious and explicitly not open to everyone is culting in a good way, in a beautiful way. But the fandom of RuPaul's drag race is almost the opposite. It can make you feel like if you don't know every little reference of this reality show, you're not a true member of the community. So then you might have this involuntary response of, I wish I was on the inside. Like I wish I knew everything about these people and the drag performers and RuPaul's

drag race are sort of saints. They're these idols that people worship in kind of a spiritual way, I feel. If these fans are coming from households where it's not normal to be queer or like spaces where dressing up in drag isn't normalized, they idolize them like on a deeper level. They were like, you gave me hope. For sure. You gave me like a vision of what I want to do with my future. They give them this sense of acceptance and belonging and transcendence, all the things

that occult promises and should fulfill, but doesn't always. And I think it's possible that some fans are coming from homes that were like traditionally quite religious. And so they grew up maybe with a sense of ritual, but that they didn't feel particularly accepted by. And now here is like this very, very ritualistic culture with idols and a sort of hierarchy and a language and an aesthetic that can sort of replace the religion that they're rejecting from their past.

That's something that we see in cults across the spectrum of influence. It is this sort of new fringe group that is filling a void for people. One thing that I do think is like a little potentially dangerous, and I think we also talk about this with our guest, if someone is watching the show with not a lot of historical context of like the drag community and understanding what it was like before the show came around, they might have this like false hope that like it's a really easy career or that it's like a career that is like guaranteed to pay your bills. And it gives a lot of people the idea that if they just work hard enough and they put

all their time and effort into it, like they're going to become a drag queen on RuPaul and become a star and like that's the career trajectory. It's not always the case. I mean, even just to get on the show, the queens that get on the show have been doing it for years. I think that's the sort of risk of the Hollywoodification of any group. I don't know if I just invented that word, the social mediafication of any group when you start to combine sort of like a pure intentioned community with capitalism.

That's where a lot of false promises start to come in. Also, there is always the risk when you mainstream a queer community or a marginalized community's culture of appropriation happening. I mean, I think we've all met people who like don't support queer people of color or vote in favor of their rights who say Yoss Queen, yeah, I'm like get the fuck out of here. So I think we could probably get into introducing our guest. I'm so excited for our listeners to hear from her. We're going to be talking to Ben Dela Krem.

She is an American drag queen, burlesque performer and actor originally from Seattle. Now they live in LA. But she was a contestant on the sixth season of RuPaul's Drag Race and third season of RuPaul Drag Race All Stars. And she tours all over the country, so check her out. Can you introduce yourself to our listeners and how you first got into drag? Yeah, hi, my name is Ben Dela Krem, and I have been a drag queen for 19 years at this time professionally.

Oh my God, your drag career is an adult. Yeah, it is a full grown, it can drink, it can buy porn. Yeah. I mean, I guess who buys porn anymore. But like when I was young, you had to get a magazine out of the story. Anyway, I've been a queen for a real long time. I have been on two seasons of the Cult Reality series, RuPaul's Drag Race. I have been somebody who has been into drag since I was a kid.

I mean, it's a frequent question. When did I get into drag? And the reality is that I was making dresses out of towels and bedsheets and like emulating my favorite female stars when I was like seven, you know? And so it wasn't so much that I started drag, it was more that I was like, oh, there's people like me. There is like a direction for me. There's sort of a container for what I already am.

Which I think is really different from now, people see drag as like a path to fame and fortune. Right? They get into it for those reasons. Whereas if you got into it before Drag Race took off, you had to love drag so much that you did it in spite of the fact that you would never be rich and you would never be famous. Yeah. Isn't that fascinating how much it's changed?

When we say the cult of RuPaul's Drag Race, what does that mean to you and how do you interpret that? Oh my God. Where do you begin? Yeah. The way that this TV show, which started, I mean, if you watch that first season, it's like they made it in a basement with a Nokia. And you watch this thing grow and now it's like a television franchise that spans the

globe and, you know, Ru's music career is all tied into it, her books, everything else. And people are just like totally nuts about it. And, you know, it's hard to say is Ru even the leader of this thing or is Drag Race itself the kind of, you know what I mean? Because people are fans of the show and oftentimes they think they're fans of the Queens, but they are willing to tear a Queen apart and I'm like, that like the show takes priority in people's minds as far as fandom over the individuals on the show. That's so true.

I never thought about that. If they're critiquing the Queens, those are people, you know, those are people who like put their life's work into that performance or into that specific episode or something. When they tear people apart, it's kind of like social media. They maybe don't feel like they're attacking like an individual there, they're attacking the performance. It's all attached to each other. The allegiance is so to this kind of amorphous, whatever the show is thing that if they see

a Queen as, and I have my own very personal relationship to this, but if they see a Queen as doing anything that they perceive as disrespectful to the show, it's like in some people's minds, absolutely no question as to who they're siting with. And it's this sort of non-specific entity of the show rather than an individual. And that I find fascinating. Yeah. I think the parasocial relationship probably enhances so much of that drama. And it also reminds me so much of when members of a religious cultish group are in full service

of the church or the religion. And if parishioners or accolades or even like higher ups do something that they perceive to be a betrayal of the larger church, that person is out. I have a relationship to this specifically because as cult members know, I chose to leave my season of All Stars Three when I was on that and it was this very infamous moment. And there were some people who were like, this is an act of disrespect against the church, right? Who were like, how dare you?

Who were huge quote unquote fans of mine before that. And then we're like, no, you turned on it. And then on the opposite side of that, I had so many people revering me and my actual nickname for a while became Bendele Christ, which is right. Fans still refer to me that way because in their mind, I did this like selfless act by relating myself. Yeah. You were a martyr.

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, it's just bunkers all across the board. Okay. So the way I see it is obviously like RuPaul's is the cult itself, but then there are levels within the cult. And like you made it one of the final levels, which is like the All Star season. It's like St. Hood.

Exactly. RuPaul's. Yeah. Did you think that calling you Christ or like in that nickname, they saw you as a new cult leader? I mean, I think probably to some degree, I mean, that maybe is like a little grandiose but it's like, you know, but I do think that the response I got from people, a lot of it was they find it inspiring, you know, and there's like sort of this ideological thing

that they identify with. And to be fair, that was very much my intention with that moment, right? Like I like that was not an accident. Yeah. I certainly wasn't trying to deify myself, but I was trying to say something actually very specifically about the format of the show and what I disagree with that I think people follow blindly, which is exactly that kind of glorification of this sort of blood lust within it, you know, the fans want to see someone like a victor and others fall.

It's very human actually, like we love a public shaming. We love, you know, elevating people and putting halos on people who we want to emulate. And I think in the age of the internet and especially during this time when we're all looking for community and answers and we're not finding those things in the places that have traditionally given them to us, things get really polarized and really divisive. You mentioned it's this place where like people find community originally. And so I feel like because it's built its community over such a long period of time, do you think that the reason people are like so strict about praising the show itself is

that that's where they originally found a safe space? Do you think people might feel like it's threatening their space? Yeah, I think that to a degree that makes sense and what it makes me think of is that there are a lot of queens like myself who were doing drag, pre-drag race. When it was very much, it was culting in a different way, right? Like it was this niche space that we'd found for ourselves that we'd carved out that was very against the mainstream. It was truly fringe.

I mean, even within the gay community, right? And so I think this larger audience found themselves to some degree within the drag race audience and they, oh, there is, there's something for the weirdos. I can become who I want to be, right? Which is how a lot of us felt in the smaller sense. And then I think there was sort of a sense of loss, right? So the same way that you're talking about those people sort of wanting to defend that thing where they found themselves, I think some of the queens who have been at it for

a while, like I know that I can't speak for others, but for myself, there's part of me that wants to defend what I knew to be drag before drag race. Yeah, that totally makes sense. How do you think the world of RuPaul's drag race is cult like in a good way? At its heart, I think the message of drag, even without intention, but by default is that people are creating their own reality. Even if you're not totally aware, that's why you're being drawn to it. I think that people find it inspiring in a way where they're like, oh, the rules don't

exist in the way that I've been told they exist. And that can mean anything for me. It can mean like, okay, I'm going to put on like a wild outfit, but it could also just mean like, I'm not going to put up with my crappy boss or like, you know, whatever. It's an example of rule breaking as a path to success as opposed to being ostracized, right? And that's always been true of drag, but I think people really identify with that with drag race.

And, you know, I have a ton of fans from the show that are, there's a lot of young people, right? It's, there's a lot of kids who are like, oh my God, I can be who I want to be. And I know that from my perspective, there was nothing like this when I was in, you know, grade school in high school. And I think all the time about how life changing it would have been, if I'd had this example of a place for me out there, of a potential community, you know, because I didn't see that reflected, that sense of belonging that can be culty, it's, it's also necessary.

Yeah. Do you think that the cult of RuPaul's drag race can ever go too far and how so in your opinion? Oh my God, absolutely. Feel free to give specific examples. Just feel free to, to appropriate some drag terminology, spill the tea. Every queen that I know who has been a contestant on that show has dealt to a degree with this sort of toxic fandom that is so quick to attack, right?

And in ways that don't necessarily align with the values espoused by the show either, right? We've definitely seen a lot of examples of crazy super racist attacks, you know, I mean the smallest transgressions on the show, right? Like somebody was rude to somebody in the work room once and now they get death threats in their DMs. I mean, it's extreme and it's happened to many of us. What do you think is underlying that behavior?

I mean, that's a really hard question because it's the question of like, why are people mean online? Right. I don't know why are people psychopaths. I don't know. Do you think it's because they're, they feel entitled to have access to you? Well, I think there's a huge thing, right, about drag celebrity. It feels niche.

You know, everywhere I go, I am recognized by someone, you know, anything, whether it's a restaurant or an airport or whatever. But it's probably just one person or two, right, out of all the people milling around. And those people are like fanatic. We've got this very, very intense fan base, but because they don't view themselves as the majority, I think we feel very accessible, right? And that is a combination of just what social media culture is and that people can easily just like message us or tweet us or whatever.

But it's also the way in which on the show, they really like to emphasize sort of this vulnerable humanity behind the queen, which I think has its pros and cons as well. But people feel like they know us deeply, right? And they relate to that. You know, I like talked about my mom's death on my original season. Seriously, like it was 30 seconds, right? And I have people who really have projected some stuff and related to my story in that way.

And the way that I grew up bullied and all these other things and people are like, I relate to your story so much, which is amazing. And I feel like, oh, my God, I'm so glad I could help somebody by sharing that. But also they feel the sense of intimacy with you. And I'm like, but I don't know. Yeah, I was just about to say it's like this intimate relationship, but like they're watching at home. It's like a one-sided conversation.

And then the flip side of it is that they feel so quick to, I mean, there was somebody on my first season on season six that we had like a mild distaste for each other and people were like, this feud and they sent her death threats because they thought they were defending on my behalf. And I was like, this is not. That's the cult of stan hood. Yeah. Yeah.

I think like in your deification, you become dehumanized. And so like that can work in your favor. If you happen to be bathing in like a glow of light, but the second you do something wrong, then you like crash and fall and burn and that's not a human way to approach someone. But I think television and celebrity and social media just causes us to dehumanize. Even those we deify. It's also a competition show. And that's part of what I actually don't love about it, right?

Like I love drag and I love that it's a showcase for drag and to elevate these artists. But the competition aspect of it, I don't know that it's necessary. I don't know if it's what people love about the show, but it certainly has helped to create that sense of it's a fight. Yeah. Right? And to tear somebody down because I am being shown all I know about drag is that it's people trying to beat each other out, which is so nuts because it's really like when you go

to like a live drag performance, that's not what it is at all. I've never been in a dressing room that feels like that. I've never been in a part of the drag community backstage on stage, whatever that doesn't feel like everyone is part of something together and supporting each other and trying to lift each other up. And it's the opposite of what people learn in this context. Yeah. That's the awkward combination of drag and Hollywood, you know, it kind of ruins it.

When queens like get off the show, they do often say like, I won just by coming on the show, but I feel like the fans are like so enthralled in the competition that they don't believe that. But really, it is like a win by just getting on the show is a huge win. It's the win for everyone. You're exactly right. And I, but I do think it's even more specific than that. To win is to make an impression on the show and then to figure out what to do with it

afterwards. Yeah. Because people are like, but you gave up the $100,000 or whatever. And you know, to be frank, if you build the right following, you get much more than $100,000. Yeah. Especially like the $100,000 on a show, it's taxed at like 50%. Exactly, right. You get $4 in the mail.

That's a thing where some of these queens will get that crown, get that, but like people don't necessarily remember them as much as some of the other ones who didn't win, but just staked the claim. Oh dude, the cult of branding yourself, the cult of attention. What have been your most cult like fan encounters personally? I will say that in terms of the sort of positive aspect, I have just had some super wonderful connections with fans, kind of in the way that I was talking about where maybe they identify with something about my story.

And I think the most meaningful ones are with young people. Just recently, actually on this tour that I'm currently in the midst of, I had somebody come to a meet and greet afterwards and it was this young queer person and they were like, I just want you to know that I listened to this interview with you where you talked about how you like wished there had been someone who could reflect yourself back to you at this age and could have told you that there is a future for this person and that it's based in all the exact same things that you're being reviled for now, right? This person said like, you know, I read this interview and I just really want you to know

that you were that person for me and you know, that's incredible. And I get quite a few things like that, the way that that was phrased really resonated. Those are the wonderful ones, right? And then on the other end of it, this one time I was followed through a department store by somebody who came up to me and was like, oh, can I get a selfie? And I was like, sure, you know, I'm like, disgusting and like, rolling around in my sweatpants trying to find something at Marshall's or whatever. And after the photo, they proceed to just follow me around, not talking to me, but on

their phone, on speaker phone, calling all their friends saying like, okay, can you talk to my friend, Jessica? And then literally called somebody who she was like, oh, no. Okay, my friend Josh is like, he's actually just down the street, so he's going to come over and say hi. Is that okay? And I was like, I don't know what to do. And then this guy like showed up and the two of them started following me around and taking

pictures and calling their friends. And it was just really wild. Okay, one direction. It was really nice. Right. But that's the thing. Then there's also this store full of people who are like, what the fuck is going on? Who is this dumb guy's sweatpants?

You are truly like so famous. But it's like to a certain very, very fanatical group of people. It's very niche, but it's huge within them. You mentioned earlier, these people feel like they know you so well. Do you think that also has anything to do with the style in which queens perform? Because oftentimes they go off stage and they like interact with the audience. There's less of a wall between you and your audience members as a performer than there is for like pop performers.

Despite the fact that you're like unrecognizable. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, that is also a piece of it, right? Is that anonymity, which is one reason I resisted going on the show for a long time. Like I did an audition for many years of people being like, you have to do this. And that partially was because living in Seattle at the time, you know, my biggest fan who was always in the front row could also be my barista. And I didn't have to be on for them because they didn't recognize me.

But you give up that anonymity when you go on the show because they really highlight you out of drag, right? So that was a big piece of that too. And it's interesting too, from my perspective, because what I actually have always done and continued to do is write sort of theatrical narrative shows. So what I do is very different from what people are taught on the show Queens do with the lip sync for your life emphasis, right? Like I actually don't lip sync and I don't go out and like grab dollars, which is also

a like an amazing section of the drag community as well. But yes, within that, I do think that people feel this kind of right. It's like tactile. You're going to like, and people will line up with their dollars. So I do these narrative shows where it's really like you sit down in a theater and you watch a play, right? And some of them are solo and some of them are larger cast. But I will have people who don't really understand that not all drag is a club performance.

And I have had people in audiences stand up, walk to the side of the stage and hold up money. And I'm like, I'm in the middle of a monologue. It's very weird, you know? But there is that they're taught that you get to like touch a drag queen, reach out to a drag queen. Right? Yeah.

And everyone has their own performing style. I was like at a show on Saturday that I was performing on and there was also like a couple of drag performances on when I was like waving the money. The queen like wasn't coming over. And then I was like, I'm just going to like put this away because I don't know if this is their style. And I'm just going to respect that. And I also feel like you can only wave money at a queen for so long.

And then ignore you until you're like, this feels almost a rock story. You know? Part of it. Yeah. I mean, but it's tricky because other places it's like, if you don't do that, it's rude. Yeah. I think as an audience member, it's about just sort of coming in and reading the room, which you did.

Yeah. I love to read the room. Reading the room is the only kind of reading that I do famously. Another aspect of these cult followers, which is the one that probably drives me craziest. It's the people who really love, love, love the show and you were on it and that's important to them. And that's where it ends. I cannot tell you how many times people come up, tell me they are my biggest fan, ask me

for a selfie. And then I say, oh, amazing. I'm at a show. Like I have a show tonight down the street and they go, oh, yeah, no, no, sorry. And then they walk away like with their eyes averted. You are not my biggest fan. Yeah. I'm at a show and those are very different things.

Your biggest fans knew you before the show. Well, and I did get to garner a lot of fans from the show who actually, you know, follow and attend things and care about the specific work I make, right, as an artist. People get confused about whether they're your fan or not. And that's a very specific result of this. Yeah. It kind of reminds me of when like there are some people who go up to famous people that they like recognize, but then they don't know their name.

They're like, hey, hey, hey, can I get a picture with you? And they're like, what's my name? Oh, and I get things like that too where it's like people being like, oh my God, I love you. Can we get a selfie? Which one are you? Yeah. It's yeah.

That doesn't feel great. It doesn't feel like respect. We can actually relate to that a little bit because Issa and I have had a couple experiences where strangers out in the wild at like a party or something like that have recommended this podcast sounds like a cult to us without realizing that it's our show. Actually, this happened to me the other week. I was in a bookstore signing copies of cultish and a person came up to me and was like, oh my God, I love cults.

Do you listen to the podcast? Sounds like a cult. And I was like, yes, yes, this is the book that inspired it and I work so hard on it. I promise you like it. Please buy it. It just kind of connects in a small way to how dehumanizing that whole creator consumer exchange can be and to your point about having to share deep personal tragedies on drag race. It seems to me that the more niche or marginalized a performer is, the more the entertainment

industry is likely to turn them into trauma porn. And that's very culty as well. This idea of being coerced into trading your most intimate secrets for some sort of reward. Yeah. I'm dwelling on the way that the word follower has really been warped by social media. It's like you literally click a button that says follow to become a member of your Instagram cult at least. And then does that entitle you to literally physically with your legs, follow someone

around the store? I'm confused about our relationship to the word follow these days. Yeah, yeah. It's so funny how like in the past Charles Manson was like the OG influencer. But he literally had people follow him into the desert like when he was like, follow me. He was like, literally walk behind me. And do you think a fandom goes from a cult following to a full blown cult? Have you seen that happen?

Does it have to do with that thing where it becomes the dehumanization of the individuals within this larger thing? I mean, RuPaul is sort of the figurehead of this cult of RuPaul's drag race. But even she is, you know, subject to criticism to a degree. I mean, it's like a contestant who's a queen versus RuPaul. RuPaul will always be in the right, right? Yeah. And RuPaul versus drag race or the fandom, she is not always in the right, right?

Yeah. And that's interesting, too, is that for a long time she's felt like this infallible leader. But now it's like, oh, maybe this beast has even gotten bigger than you. Yeah. And I'm not saying that I agree with everything RuPaul says and does, I certainly do not. But it's just interesting that people go along with certain things and then they find others where they won't.

And maybe that's what makes it a cult rather than a cult following. The hierarchies. I guess in a way you could say the executive producers are the cult leaders. I mean, that's kind of what I was thinking, right? Yeah. It's like if Ru is the floating green face, then the producers are like behind the curtains frantically spitting back. Can we at least talk about that?

Can you talk about the cultishness of the actual production of the show? Like, do you feel manipulated? Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, I don't know the standard of practice with reality TV in general, but I know that it is certainly not every show. And I don't know an example of another show where you are as cut off from society. I mean, we are flown out there and the moment we arrive, phones taken, any electronics taken,

luggage searched. I mean, I guess you're not literally locked in a hotel room, but you're in a hotel room and they put tape on the door so that if the tape is broken, they know that you opened the door. No way. Yes. Oh my God. I mean, they're her bachelor contestant and she didn't even say they do that to them.

Well, no, I don't think so because those things are all about right. They want them to like go out and those boozed up interactions offscreen that make them angrier when the cameras are rolling. But for us, they don't want any interaction not on camera. And it's also about confidentiality. They don't leaks about the who's on the season allegedly, although there's always leaks. And you know, I suspect that half of them are shared by them, you know, because it's like of course it builds, yeah.

But I think the biggest reason they really do it is because they're cutting you off from any psychological support system, you know, and you're stuck in that hotel for quite a few days before filming even starts and you don't know what you're walking into. And it's very scary the first time around, but they want you crazy. They want to break you. They want you to already be loopy when you walk in there. It's also like not an easy show, like making dresses from scratch. Like that is something I couldn't even do if I was given like six months.

Yeah. And especially if you think about the fact that you're on a, you know, five to six day filming schedule, right? So those episodes that you're like, oh, there's a week of breathing time in between. No, ma'am. It takes two days to film an episode and then you film the next one and then you film the next one. And people are nuts, like, you know, they're like, oh my God, drag queens are so dramatic.

No, tired people are dramatic. Oh my God, it's so funny. When you list all of the features, it's like, we're locked in a room. There's tape on the door. We can't escape. We have to sew all our own clothes from scratch. They make us overtired. I'm like, babe, this sounds like the fundamentalist Mormons.

Yeah. Oh, it is. It's wild. I mean, it's like the hotel room really is dungeon style where you have to like slip a little note under the door if you need anything. And I also feel like in today's day and age, like when we're all addicted to social media, like taking someone's phone is like taking someone's drug. That alone could drive me insane.

You know, we're reliant on the dopamine of just staring into that light, right? And so it's crazy. It's like seasonal affective disorder. Yeah, but I guess that's a benefit too, right? If all you had to do was sit in a hotel room and like learn to be alone with your own emotions. I feel like maybe if it was like Bachelor in Paradise style where like all you had to do all day was like lie out on the beach and flirt with someone. But you guys, you're like literally making dresses and like working 12 hour dates.

And it is like, you know, what if you had to have these crazy experiences and then you couldn't just text or call your friend and process it at the end of the day or maybe in some of our cases, talk to your therapist, right? I was just going to say a hundred percent, you know, they should have like on call therapists that you should. Okay. Yes. Okay.

Well, they do. I'm like, you're hired by the production. Like I am, you know, I'm not going to just trust that you have my best interest in mind. And maybe they do. Right. Like I'm speaking like out of my ass about my like what I said, dude, I would assume they were wearing a wire. You're going to be suspicious, right?

You're not going to share your full feelings even if you fully trust it because you are under a microscope in that paperwork. You sign a thing saying that you can be recorded even when you don't know about it. Yeah. That's the crazy thing about reality TV. I mean, like, I don't know. Love Island. You can only record them asleep, asleep.

One of the things that can make you especially susceptible to cult influence is just like the desire to be someone and have a meaningful life. And that's the sort of thing that they're like hardcore taking advantage of. And this is such a cult tactic to like isolate someone away from their support system so that you then develop an intense bond with this new group that you're assigned. Yeah. So it's like, who the fuck else am I supposed to lean on for support now other than my fellow cast members?

And guess what? I'm being filmed the whole time. Right. They want you to trust who they portray as the authority figures to you, right? Yes. Which is like the producers, your interviewers, you know, directors, whatever. It's like the more I think about this, the more I feel like somebody who in some ways like escaped a cult because of how my All Stars 3 adventure ended.

What I saw on my first experience was that I was so frozen with fear and I really was fairly malleable because everybody knows something I don't. All these people are in charge and when I went in the second time around, I very much went in telling myself, I am an important department in this business and we are all just different departments and sometimes departments have conflict, but nobody's department is more important than mine. So that was kind of how I went in viewing it. There was definitely a sense of frustration that I wasn't necessarily willing to like

buy into the authority that was trying to be sort of established with no particular meaning. So people are like, these people are in charge, you have to listen to them and then you go uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, but it's like why, why do you think that? Do you feel like a culture shock change when you like leave the production? Yeah, what was the trauma recovery like? Well, it's weird because when you leave the show, you've just gone through this very intense experience.

And it's one of the weirdest experiences I've ever been through in my life and every queen I talk to says the same thing, but then it's a secret for however long it takes for the announcement to come out, right? So you eventually like six months later or however long it takes, get to have all these other people kind of witness whatever happened, right? Like you finally have this sort of people being like, yes, I back you up, you're not crazy just because I'm watching what happened, but for six months or however long you're sitting there like, am I nuts?

Did that even happen? Yeah. That's so crazy. And also the fear of what, how will this come out, right? Like things can be edited in a lot of different ways. You learn a lot about yourself you didn't know when you see it on TV and we all have a lot about ourselves that we don't know, but we don't all have to have that mirrored back to us.

On national television. It's like you have to like relive the trauma second hand as an audience about it, right? Like that was my experience was I was like, oh my God, I'm going to come off in all these ways and then it happened and people felt like I was a Disney princess and I was like, okay, great. The stress of not knowing though sounds absolutely chaotic, but there's also a lot to live up to like everyone on there is a fully fleshed out human being, but they have to distill you down to an archetype.

So you're either good or you're bad, but it is also a lot to live up to. Yeah. It is because they expect you to always be that version of yourself. We love a good, evil binary. Normally hate binaries. Yeah. I mean, I think we're primed to love a good, evil binary and then our work as humans is to push against that.

Right. I mean, there's a real lack of nuance with all of this and that's something that I always am. Because nuance is exhausting. Desperately trying to get people. It is. It is. It is.

The fact that we give into that exhaustion leads to much of the state of the world today, right? And then like I can wax philosophical about this all day long where I'm like, this drag race fandom is like, it might seem innocent enough, but it's like, this is the same kind of thinking that we're cultivating as a country that is, that is a real problem. Yeah. And social media is perpetuating it because our brains are tired. That's straight up why we have our cult spectrum and classify every cult that we discuss as

a live your life, a watch your back or get the fuck out because like cultishness due to the factors that you're mentioning is everywhere. It's just a matter of participating in groups that are healthier than not and participating with awareness because cultishness itself is impossible to avoid. Are there any insider RuPaul cast member rules or rituals that viewers might not know about? I think people don't necessarily know the degree of the sort of different ways that you're driven a little nuts, right? Like so it's that isolation thing, but also when cameras aren't rolling, you're not allowed

to speak. Like they'll pick a bunch of us up at the hotel and drive us there in a van, but you're not allowed to talk to each other in the van. And when you're on set, you, if there are PAs standing around the group, making sure that no one says anything or even like makes meaningful eye contact, like they'll shut it down. Wait, is it like once they start rolling, then you're allowed to talk? Yes.

Because I'm also wondering, you know how like there's a lot of like scenes or shots of people just like looking around, like looking like around the corner. Do they ever get those when you're like technically not allowed to speak? So there's definitely times, right? Like when we're working on a project, but they're basically getting like b-roll, right? So like if it's like constructing costumes or whatever, we will not be allowed to speak to each other, but we're all in the same work room working. So of course it's like literally you can hear a fly buzzing around your shoulder and give

a glance that with the right sound effects and editing is you like hating a queen. There are silencing rules in a lot of classic cults. Jonestown had a quiet rule in the heavens gate mansion. There was a communal silent rule. Actually in Scientology, they have something called silent births. So while you're literally pushing out a baby, you're not allowed to scream ostensibly for the spiritual health of the child. So cults love coming up with different excuses to keep their members from making noise.

And if you can't talk to your fellow cult members, you can't organize, you can't strategize, you can't figure out how to push back. Mandais like picturing all the queens like starting a revolution, but they couldn't because they weren't allowed to speak. Right, yeah. It's very intense and I will say that once I left the show again on All Stars, I had so few fucks to give. I just was in this zone where I was like, this is an illusion of your authority over

me and I was just like, I'm going to talk as much as I want. I'm going to leave my room, right? I'm not winning. I just decided that. So what are the stakes? They're not existing. You have no further control over me. Yeah, that's the thing is like you do it and I guess the threat of not following the rules

is getting kicked off the show. Right. But as you mentioned, winning isn't really how you win. You win by getting attention. You know, and that's the thing too is people are like, oh my god, we can't believe that you gave this up. And I'm like, it's how many years later and you're still talking about it? Like it's, you know what I mean?

Like somebody wrote something somewhere that useful information, but there was some article or something, you know, people do write ups and of the episodes and somebody talked about my leaving the show as a move against reality television format that is perfectly like made for reality TV format, right? And that is like one of my proudest moments of being able to engineer something where I said like, I don't agree to the terms of this and I don't think that it's a great example to set. Yeah.

And also I'm really making a splash and I know that this is going to lock in some fame and notoriety. And one of the first to do so because I think once that becomes like a trend, then people don't have as much respect for it because they kind of like see it as a tactic. We have one more question and then we're going to play a little game. You could argue that the Queens who really make a splash each have their own mini cults. Out of all the RuPaul Queens, besides RuPaul herself, who do you think is the biggest cult leader and why?

I mean, I'm not trying to think of one. I'm trying to narrow it down. Well, I think Bianca Del Rio is a huge one, right? Like Bianca Del Rio won the first season of Drag Race that I was on and she could do no wrong. Bianca is a good friend. Like I really adore her, but her fans are so bonkers. And she, you know, I mean, mad respect to her, the career that she's built for herself

since then. I mean, she's still selling out like these, you know, thousands of seat venues constantly everywhere she goes and people just hang on her every word. She does a lot of very like edgy, shall we say, insult comedy. And I'm the first to say like this is not necessarily what I think is the best thing to put into the world, but her fans are like, do not criticize anything about this, right? Because again, I wouldn't like, this is nothing I wouldn't like actually speak to Bianca about. But I do think that, you know, she has, she has those fans who will like defend her to

the death and follow her everywhere. Her following is really only grown since her season. And that's rare. Yeah. And that's such a good point of like, how serious of a cult leader they are is in relation to how much their fans are willing to do for them. And so like if Bianca's fans are willing to do really anything for her, then it's like they are a leader.

So now we're going to play a game that we often play on our show called culty quotes. We're going to read a quote to you. You're going to decide whether it was Rue or a notorious cult leader. First quote is, creativity is the greatest rebellion in existence. I'm going to go with a notorious cult leader on that one. Correct. Correct. Okay.

Rue was the leader of the Rajneesh Parim cult, the Wild Wild Country cult. It's like a little too poetic. Second quote. I never thought I was normal. Never tried to be normal. I guess I'll go with Rue on that. It was Charles Manson. Oh my God.

Damn it. The OG influencer. All right. Six of one. All right. All right. Third quote. When you become the image of your own imagination, it's the most powerful thing you could ever

do. All right. I'm going to go with Rue again on this one. Correct. All right. But I mean, when you are a thought leader, a taste maker, and people have built you up and put you on this pedestal, I feel like you almost feel the pressure to speak in these like highfalutin inspiring platitudes.

Oh, for sure. And it's also like, if you look at Rue's media presence from the 90s during her first big blow up during the supermodel era, right? She like hosted a show on VH1 and she was in like tons of late night interviews and stuff like that. She is still saying the same platitudes that she was saying. I mean, it's like, it is wild. Speak for the job you want.

Yeah. It's like one lady, Lady Gaga always says like, there can be a million people in the room and you just need one of them to believe in you. Yeah. Rue was like, I just need one person to follow me onto a commune. Next quote. Fulfillment isn't found over the rainbow. It's found in the here and now.

Notorious Collider. It was Rue. She got it off. Say that again. Fulfillment isn't found over the rainbow. It's found in the here and now. I have to go. Oh my God.

Okay. Next quote. Negativity is basically laziness. Notorious Collider. It was Rue. Oh my God, she's a monster. In fairness, that particular quote does go on for a bit longer. The full quote is, negativity is basically laziness.

It takes a lot of work to remain positive, but positivity always pays off. Okay, I have to say that while I did not believe that it was Rue's phrasing, there was no part of me that didn't think that was an ideology that she believed in, you know what I mean? Yeah. Totally. Next one. If you see the good in others and cover their defects with your love, they will follow you. If you see only weaknesses in others, your spirituality will be ruined.

I mean, whatever. Every time I think it's a Collider, it's Rue. So Rue. It was a Collider. At least you thought it was a Collider. This is not my career. I'm glad I've built my career based on some other skillsets. Honestly, this game is really tricky and it's only fun when people doubt themselves.

So you're making it really funny. You're doing actually a better job than most people do because you're fucking up. It's more fun to listen to. But that was Reverend Moon, the leader of the Unification Church, aka the Moonies. Go with your gut on this one. You know, whatever you feel. Okay. Last quote.

If you're conscious, we all know we're playing rules. Collider. It was Rue. I'm so sorry. I feel like you all are, I want to see, I want to see these quotes. I feel like you have to pinpoint like certain words. Like in the last one with Reverend Moon, they said like they will follow you, you know, and I feel like Rue would never say something like, like with follow.

I don't know. I feel like there is no rhyme or reason. Actually, yeah, you're right. It's just like if you have influence and if you're good at harnessing it as you mentioned, like you're gonna sound like a Collider. That's true. Yeah. All right.

You helped us prove our point and that's a win. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Which is that? Everything's a cult. Which is that? Everything's a cult. It's a point.

I am more than happy to help for you. Thank you so much for being on this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. If people want to keep up with you and become a follower, but don't follow Bendelecrem around our souls. Around our souls, please. God damn it. How can they do that respectfully? A wonderful, respectful way to do that is to follow me on social media on Instagram or

Twitter or Facebook at Bendelecrem. It's all one word. It's B-E-N-D-E-L-A-C-R-E-M-E. You can also check out my full tour schedule at Bendelecrem.com. Amanda, out of the three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. What do you think that the cult of RuPaul's Drag Race falls under? Yeah, maybe live your life, sun, watch your back, moon.

I think the cultiest aspects of RuPaul's Drag Race have to do with Hollywood and social media. For me, the cultiest thing was when they talk about how there's no communication with the outside world while they're filming, so it's like for the queens who are on the show, that's as culty as it gets, like you're in the final levels of it. But speaking to Bendelecrem and seeing the way that she's just happy and living her life and made it out and left when she wanted to on the show, shows me that you literally can just get up and leave the show.

And still thrive and not suffer from it. There are absolutely cultish aspects without a doubt. We grade all of the cults that we analyze on the show on a curve, I think. And we sort of have to weigh them against one another. I feel like a lot of people who work on the show have been marginalized in the past and so they know what a toxic culture can be like, even though it's going to be a little toxic inherently because it's reality TV. We have not heard of any dark, dark things happening.

Whenever you're in a workplace where a lot of clout and money are being tossed around, you should watch your back regardless. But I think as far as stand-ums go, even though RuPaul stands are really intense, like sometimes like low-key stock people or like… Yeah, but even like Bendelecrem describing that thing where they like kind of followed her around in Marshalls, they don't like attack her, you know what I mean? Yeah. Don't follow your idols around the store.

We talked through this thoroughly enough with Bendelecrem, who was pretty transparent with that. Super transparent. And you know, she has no reason not to be. We'll leave it open. We could reevaluate our verdict if something comes out, but at this point, I truly think it's a live your life. Yeah.

Me too. Well, that is our show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds like a cult is created, hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and Issa Medina. Kate Elizabeth is our editor.

Our podcast studio is all things comedy and our theme music is by Casey Colt. Thank you to our intern slash production assistant, Noemi Griffin. Subscribe to Sounds Like a Cult wherever you get your podcasts, so you never miss an episode. And if you like our show, feel free to give us a rating and review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and check us out on Patreon at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.