Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Skincare

Episode Date: March 22, 2022

Serums, lasers, influencer skincare routines, oh my! There seems to be no end to how many expensive products and techniques are promised to keep us looking “eternally youthful”... but are these products *really* the miracles they claim to be? Do we *need* skincare at all? And isn’t the promise of aesthetic immortality kinda culty in the first place? This week, co-hosts Amanda (recovering beauty editor) and Isa (often forgets to wash her face) are joined by skincare critic Jessica DeFino and celebrity skincare expert Renée Rouleau to discuss the pros and cons of skincare’s “cult following.” https://www.jessica-defino.com/ Go to JoinHoney.com/CULT to start getting sweet deals for free! Get 10% off your first order with promo code CULT at OseaMalibu.com New users can get $10 in free Bitcoin when you sign up today at Coinbase.com/CULT

My name is Renee Rolo. I've been an esthetician for over three decades. The focus of skincare and certainly products and certainly skincare treatments and facials, it was very reactive, not proactive, meaning you were like, okay, now I just turned 40 and now I'm getting wrinkles, I should do something about it. You know, the reason why it's become such a cult is because we have so much more awareness about prevention, right? People are getting prevented of Botox, people are wearing sunscreen. You know, we didn't know that it was preventing wrinkles back then. And the thought of wanting to get ahead of it is just created kind of this cult-like status. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Amanda Montel,

author of the book Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and I'm Issa Medina, a comedian. Every week on our show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group that puts the cult in culture to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? To join our cult, follow us on Instagram, that sounds like a cult pod. I'm on Instagram, at Amanda underscore Montel, and I'm on IG, at Issa Medina, I-S-A-A-M-E-D-I-N-A-A. And for bonus materials, juicy cult discussions, and more, feel free to hit us up on Patreon at Patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. Now let's get into this week's juicy topic. Or should I say creamy topic? Yeah, serum-y topic. This week's fucking derma-planing micro-diddle-ying topic that also

you can wear on your face. A cult of skincare. This is another of the few cults that I personally have defected from. Yeah. Because I used to work in the beauty industry as a beauty editor for an online cosmetics magazine, how would I even describe it? I feel like it's almost like a great cult for you to have been in in your early 20s because you learned so much, and then you were like, peace out, but you took all the knowledge with you. It's true. I started working as a beauty editor when I was 22, and I fell into it. I wanted to be a writer, but the only website that would hire me was this like beauty website, which I was kind of beautiful. Yeah. Well, shamefully, I was kind of flattered that I was deemed like not ugly enough to work in beauty as they say. But

I also didn't give a shit about beauty, like especially not skincare. When I was in high school, I used to take my makeup off with my hands. Oh, dude, I literally would not take my makeup off until like the last two years. I just started taking my makeup off. Yeah, man. And it's on screen. I just started wearing it. Well, it's not good late than ever. Do you identify as crypto curious? Or have you ever thought about entering the crypto world in a live your life capacity, but felt overwhelmed? Coinbase makes learning to buy and sell crypto super simple. For a limited time, new users can get $10 in free Bitcoin when you sign up today at Coinbase.com slash cults sign up at Coinbase.com slash cult for $10 in free Bitcoin.

I entered this world and I thought I was sort of like I thought I didn't care. I was like, I'm an art school kid. Like I'm not a popular girl. I don't care about makeup and whatever else. But then you enter especially a culture like the LA beauty industry and everybody had like a 10 step skincare routine. I was learning about like cool sculpting and vampire facials and vagina steaming and all of these really like exotic debatably effective treatments that I was also getting access to for free. Yeah, I it's so funny that you like, of course you thought you were going to be like too good for it and it swallowed you whole. I feel like skincare is almost like that like distant relative that you see at Thanksgiving

once a year that reminds you of things you didn't even know were problems in your life. Well, okay. And this is the most cultish thing about the skincare industry in my opinion. The industry itself manufactures these aesthetic concerns with scare quotes. Everything from like wrinkles to cellulite to under eye bags. Objectively, these things are not problems, right? Like they're just human qualities. Yeah. But the skincare industry like creates this anxiety that you have all these things wrong with you. And then they very conveniently come up with the solution. The skincare industry literally is your aunt. That's like, why don't you have a boyfriend? And it's like, I didn't even know I needed one until I came here and started eating

this turkey with you until the ad is like, your crow's feet are showing. And I'm like, crow's feet, I'm wearing shoes. Like I don't even know what that is, you know, crow's feet to me growing up as a theater kid meant the like two strokes of eyeliner that you would put on the outside of your eye, like first stage makeup, as it should. Yeah. So I had like a full 10 step skincare routine. I knew the ins and outs of all like the buzzy ingredients we were all supposed to be flipping out over. And I had devices and creep my apartment was spilling over with these expensive, sometimes hundreds of dollars worth of potions, thousands of dollars did you buy them? No, no, I was being sent them for free on mass in hopes that I would, you know,

give a line or two of promotion on the website. Yeah. The problem was that like the more I acquired, the more my appetite for this stuff increased. And so like the more skincare I put on my face, the more I felt like I needed it. Yeah. Well, you were 22 at the time. Of course, you were going to look phenomenal either way being out of the industry for a few years. I've been able to sort of like recenter and determine what I want to be doing, not what I need to be doing. And the word need is used a lot in the beauty industry. What I want to be doing, not what I need to be doing. And what I want to be doing is like wearing makeup because I like it and because I'm just not willing to die on that hill of feminism that women shouldn't wear makeup,

whatever, I want to wear it. And then I want to take it off at the end of the day and maybe put an oil that's not that expensive that smells good on. And I want to get Botox twice a year. I still haven't gotten Botox, but I need to do it because you've got it and you look good. Well, I'm raising my eyebrows. I also think like the thing with skincare is it kind of tries to like drown you in products because of the culture of YouTube and the culture of like my daily routine, my nighttime routine. This is what I need to do. And all those people that are doing those videos are getting paid for them to include a thousand different products. And ultimately what that makes you do is not do your routine. You're if you do want to have a skincare routine,

you need to keep it simple. Keep it simple. It's so true. It's about consistency. So I remember among us beauty editors, using more products would actually make our skin break out, freak out. It was not good for our skin because the skincare industry is like completely made up. Like a skincare routine, it's made up and it's only existed for a few decades. And we'll talk about that more with our very expert special guest. She brings, she talks about it in a very educational way in a historical way. Yeah. Because the truth of the matter is that like skincare is something we've all been conditioned to believe that we need. But the, but really like you only should use it if you want to. I think it's like, it's almost a bandaid to a larger issue, which is that like

women aren't allowed to age. Yes. And like, it's not, it's not going to solve your problems to delay your wrinkles another two years. No. What we really need to do is like normalize aging and make it sexy, like make, make aging sexy again. I totally agree. And it's no accident that like our culture became extremely youth centric because of like advertising and then, you know, in the mid century, that was the very same time that the skincare industry started to boom. I do think that like skincare is positive in the sense that if you feel sexy, if you feel like you are like feeling younger and hotter than like that's the most important part. And if someone has like a legitimate skincare condition, like cystic acne or psoriasis, then like prescription

dermatologist skincare completely is valid. Not that other skincare isn't valid. It's just that some skincare is there to remedy something that's gone wrong rather than just attempting to reverse or prevent the natural aging process. There are so many people that are just like perfect the way that they are. And like the industry, the cultiest part about it to me is that the industry is creating problems that just are not there. Yeah, it's like because you have a little bit of pink coming through your skin, that's not a problem. Yeah, I also think like freckles and spots are beautiful. Me too. Me too. Why are we covering them up? And I would get pitched vitamin C serums, like all the time to help with those freckles. I'm like, this is my goddamn face. I've had freckles

ever since I was a little kid. Yeah, like no, it's so culty to like project that necessity to conform. When you leave the country and you see beauty in other countries and you come back to America, I feel like American beauty is so uniform. Like American beauty is so, for lack of a better word, I think Americans are beautiful, but they're basic looking and I think it's because they very contrived. Yeah, it's so contrived and they all use the same products and they all fall under like the same stigmas and categories. And so then no one has like uniqueness. A lot of skincare products actually promote problematic celebration of whiteness. Like literally in Korea, there are whitening creams that suggest certain pigments or imperfections or spots are bad. I just think that

is not cool and not okay and also kind of sad. Totally. I mean, and I think like a lot of celebrities and influencers, especially the Kardashians have a lot to do with that. Yeah. So up next, we're going to talk to Jessica DeFino, a pro skin anti-product beauty reporter. She's dismantling beauty standards, debunking marketing myths and exploring how beauty culture impacts people. You can find her work and articles in the New York Times, Vogue and more. She's admirably not on social media right now, but has a weekly-ish newsletter called The Unpublishable. People use social media to find out what's good out there, but it just creates a lot of confusion because again, if one person says it's great, another person says it's not great, who's right,

right? So I think social media, it's super fun, but you have to really check yourself because it can create a lot of confusion and people are bouncing around for product to product looking for that miracle. But we have to lower our expectations sometimes about products because they aren't miracles. For our listeners who don't know who you are, could you start by introducing yourself and talking a little bit about how you came to critique the skincare industry professionally? My name is Jessica DeFino. I am a reporter in the beauty industry and I do focus on skincare. I like to describe myself as a pro-skin anti-product reporter, which basically just means I come at every story from the lens of skin first, person first,

rather than product first, which gives you a whole different set of information to work with. And I didn't start out in the beauty industry being as critical as I am now, but through working in the beauty media and seeing how things are run behind the scenes and what influences, what stories are told and what products are featured and how we think about our skin and how we think about beauty, I was like, this, this is some bullshit. And somebody needs to start talking about it. Completely. I mean, as someone who used to work for beauty magazines, I feel now as though I did defect from a cult in part, but at the same time, like, I still use some skincare products. But looking behind the curtain does reveal a lot.

Can you tell us a little bit about how the skincare industry started in this country and how it's become cultier over the years, especially as social media and influencers have been added to the mix? Through my research, I've sort of, like, identified what I see as four main forces that have, like, combined to create the beauty industry today. And they're basically the same four forces that have formed Western culture in general. So that's patriarchy, white supremacy, colonialism and capitalism. Basically, any beauty standard, any skincare standard can be traced back to one or more of those things. The skincare industry in particular really took off after the industrial revolution, obviously, as things could be mass produced and

mass marketed and sold to millions and millions of people basically using the same standards, the same ingredients and the same messaging, like, assuming that everyone would need the same things and should look the same way. Helena Rubenstein and her brand were really foundational in this. She was the person who first came up with the idea of skin types in, like, the early 1900s, just totally based on a marketing thing, not on scientific fact at all. And it became foundational, like, to the dermatology field. That's how powerful it was. So, like, even today, dermatology and studies are based on this idea of skin types. That's, like, totally just a marketing ploy. Oh, my gosh. Even, like, professional doctors of dermatology are studying this.

Uh-huh. 100%, like, Clinique, too. I think Clinique in the 1960s was sort of the first brand to come up with, like, this three-step skincare system that's really foundational to what we think today, which is, like, blends tone and moisturize, I think. And that, again, was a, it was a marketing movement. It was done in collaboration with the dermatologist, but it was to market a three-step system not based on, like, pre-existing dermatological research. That's crazy. Do you know now that so much time has passed by? Do you think that, like, they have done any research on it? Have that, like, has it proven to be effective? The whole industry and, like, also dermatology to an extent is based off of this idea that we should be treating our skin with products, like, that's

sort of the foundational belief. And then a lot of studies go from there, rather than looking at the foundation of, like, well, how does the skin behave? And why is it doing this? And what are the internal mechanisms responsible for this? And what are the internal mechanisms we can turn on and off through other channels that are not product-based that could have a similar effect? So really, it is all just sadly based on a lot of capitalism and consumerism. And the answers are so much simpler and less product-intensive than we think. It's, like, inherently, like, based on the belief that we have something to fix, anyway, where, like, it's not, it's just natural for our bodies to decay. Like, I saw this TikTok

yesterday, actually, that was this girl that was like... I feel like in the 2000s, in the age of anorexia, it was, like, a fight for women in the 3D. Like, women weren't allowed to have bodies and take up space, but now the skincare trends are, like, women fighting for their right to exist in a 4D. You know what I mean? Like, they're not allowed to take up time, they're not allowed to age, and I feel like that's the next frontier of feminism is being, like, no amount of a body and it's also allowed to, like, hurdle through time and age accordingly. That TikTok comes from at Claire the Scare, Claire Parker on TikTok. I saw that TikTok and I was obsessed with it. I was like, yes, this is what I've been talking

about for the past two years. It was so exciting to see how that blew up. I remember being in editorial meetings and in so many words, our directive was consumers nowadays are anxious, products abound more than ever before. We need to manufacture something for them to be anxious about and then promote products to fix it. This all reminds me of a joke that a comedian and good friend of mine has, Shannon Hardy, she says that her ex started selling healing bracelets and it's genius because it's like, create the problem, sell the solution. That's one of the cultiest aspects of skincare, I think, is like, it starts out with this idea that you are inherently bad as you are, your oil, your dead skin cells, your wrinkles, your pimples, these are bad things,

and only through the power of products can you be made good. It reminds me genuinely so much of Scientology, which, similar to the three-step skincare system, creates, you know, these courses along the, what's called, bridge to total freedom that will guide you to going clear. But going clear isn't actually possible because that bridge goes on forever. And the version of going clear with skincare is like, I don't know, getting younger? Like, you literally cannot. I mean, you could also call it going clear. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, the ultimate, like, promise of skincare is like this sort of immortality, right? This anti-aging thing. It's eternal youth, which is not possible.

So we're touching a little bit on all these things, but what do you think is potentially the most dangerous thing about the skincare industry? The skincare industry is offering a physical product solution to what are essentially emotional issues and anxieties and our emotional response to the pressure of living under beauty culture. Like, beauty culture, I think, is inherently traumatic as a person, as a soul, as a spirit, to be reduced to just your physical appearance as your value marker in the world. Like, that is like a spiritually traumatic thing. Which we can't ignore, like, is a problem that affects women primarily. But then the beauty industry comes in. And I think a lot of people in the beauty industry are well-intentioned.

They're like, they're also women in pain. And they're like, this is going to solve everything. And then they attempt to market us all of these products that only affect our physical form, which essentially compounds the problem because the problem is too much focus on the physical form at the expense of our mental, emotional, and spiritual well-being. And again, you can never achieve perfection. So your standard of perfection is only going to get higher and higher and higher. Can you talk a little bit about the effect of influencer culture and how it's compounded with these existing beauty standards and product forward ideas to create a culty monster? For sure. I mean, one, so much of our life is digital, is virtual,

so we are really seeing beauty in this sort of very flattened sense of what we see in a picture, what we see on a page, what we see behind the screen. Like, my sort of conspiracy theory is this whole glass skin phenomenon is because we see people only behind these, like, glass, plastic screens. Like, everything of course looks shiny and perfect. And then when you look at just like how much of the world now is virtual, we're getting fewer cues from the rest of our life of what normal humans look like. So it's really sort of a mind fuck because you have no other representation. You see everybody looking perfect on your phone, on your screen, on Zoom, and then you see yourself an actual real human in the mirror. And of course, you don't

look like what you think beauty is. And so it causes us to buy more and consume more and try to change what we look like more because the gap between reality and what we see as beautiful is just widening and widening and widening. Okay, two more questions, and then we're going to play a game. Are there brands out there that you think are cultier than others? And what do you think makes them so culty exactly? In other words, where do you draw the line that distinguishes a brand being cult followed in a mostly harmless way and a brand being closer to a bona fide cult? I would say the first thing that comes to mind is the ordinary, because it it's all these individual ingredients, you know, and you sort of have to gain this entire new like knowledge base in order

to use the products. And like, there's this whole like language that you have to learn in a whole like, basically, like you have to become a chemist in order to use the products. And I do think that really fosters like a cult thing. And now everyone on social media like thinks they're a skincare expert because they know how to mix and match like four ingredients. I thought and this is just probably based on my past experience that you were just going to go for Glossier. That's the brand that I at least when I was a beauty editor emerged as truly like an entire personality for a certain demographic of like 20 something already gorgeous wrinkle free women. And it's like one of the first brands, at least like in this current era, that really flipped this idea of like using less

like, you know, the skin first makeup second thing. So you look at these pictures and you think, oh, they're so effortless, they're not doing anything, but it really just shifted where we focus our aesthetic labor. So people are using less makeup, but like so much more skincare. Yeah. And also it shifted the labor to like age because all of their models are like literally 19, 20 year olds, there's such barriers to entry to be a glossy girl. And yet that was the standard. But at the very same time, that was also an era when you could no longer say anti aging, you could no longer say diet. I remember being in another one of those editorial meetings, where we could no longer because what was it allure the beauty magazine. Yeah,

had this whole thing. We don't say anti aging anymore. You're still selling the same standards, you're still selling the same products, same ingredients, but you're calling it by a different name. So it's like, you still have to be concerned about the same things, but you can't express that openly. You have to hide it now. I think it's so funny society's obsession with like renaming things and it's like going to fix the problem. Like they're not homeless. There are unhoused neighbors. It's like, well, they just don't have a house. Like they still like don't have somewhere to live. I don't think that's like fixing the problem. Well, cults are expert rebranders. I mean, look at groups like the family or the children of God, like these groups have gone through so

many titles, so many names, because it helps you evade persecution. Is it you want to ask the last question? Yeah, what are some red flags to look for when shopping for skincare? And what do you think are some of the bullshittiest ingredients of products out there? Okay, a big red flag is just a really long ingredient list. The more ingredients that are in a product, the more likely it is to irritate your skin barrier and your microbiome, which really don't like to be messed with. And I think any product that requires the use of a second or third product in order to really work is the mark of a skincare scam. So like, for instance, hyaluronic acid serums are all the rage right now. But it's like, well, you have to lock it in with a moisturizer and then a face oil on top

to make sure you really get that, that effect and it doesn't dehydrate your skin. Like that's a marketing scam. Retinoids, I think, controversial opinion, but that's another one. Like retinoids really damage your skin barrier, their outermost layer. And then you're required to add all of these extra products to mitigate those effects or extra ingredients in the same product to mitigate the damaging effects. And it's like, that's not skin health. That's capitalism. Oh my gosh. Wait, can I ask, sorry, I was just interested, it made me think, what do you use? Basically nothing. If I'm going outside, yeah, I do use sunscreen, I use Kerry Grand SPF. If I have makeup or sunscreen on, I have to wash my face at night. I wash with Monica Honey,

actually, just pure Monica Honey, not like a product. And then I'll use like jojoba oil, plain jojoba oil as a makeup remover, sunscreen remover. And that's also my moisturizer, if I need it. And that's it's really Monica and jojoba. Done. That's amazing. That's all you damn need. I like never use anything because I forget. No, I'm just kidding. That's great for your skin. Forget more. Forget more. Forget all the time. So now we're going to play a quick game. We were talking about language and marketing bullshit earlier. The game is called cult slogan or skincare brand slogan. So we're going to read you a list of taglines and they're either the taglines from a notorious cult or the taglines of a cult followed skincare brand and you're

going to have to guess which. I'm so nervous. Exciting. The first slogan. Is it a cult or is it a skincare brand? Awaken a sea change. Is that a cult? No, that is La Mer. That is a skincare brand. Awaken a sea change is a slogan I found on their website just today. Wow. Beautiful. Okay. Slogan number two, where we go one, we go all. That's got to be a cult. Yeah, that's going on. Next slogan, the luxury of time regained. That feels like a skincare brand. Yeah. Yeah. Who is that? I feel like it was a luxury. That gave it away. Yeah. A lot prairie. But like this discussion of immortality and time regained, I mean that is so transcendent and religious in nature. The importance of appearance itself is religious in this culture. So the lines

get really blurred. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. The last slogan, cult or skincare brand. The priceless gift of an opportunity to decompress and love oneself in order to handle whatever life throws at them. That feels like a beauty brand. Who is that? That is a CBD skincare brand called Tribe Tokes. I feel like it could have been trickier if we had started with an opportunity. I feel like maybe priceless gift is what gave it away. Yeah. Yeah. I love to throw that. I mean all of these really could go either way, which just goes to show how culty skincare is. Yeah. Sleep with one eye open, but make sure to moisturize it. If folks want to keep up with your work, your critiques, your very simple skincare routine, where can they do that? I am currently divesting

from the cult of social media. So the only place that I'm posting anything right now is my newsletter. It's called The Unpublishable and it's on Substack. So it's jessicadefino.substack.com. I admire you. I'm trying. I do too. Skincare, being a cult, the reality is it's fun. Skincare is so much fun. Beauty is fun. It's, you know, makeup is much more expressive, but it's just fun to be online and talking with people and what do you love and it's just, it's fun. So Issa, out of the three cult categories, live your life. Watch your back or get the fuck out. What cult category do you think skincare falls into? I don't think you're gonna like it. Why? Because I think it's a live your life. Oh man,

justify. I apply a couple categories to live your lives that should already be standard for being an adult. Okay. Right? Like be rational with your money. Yeah. Don't spend all of your money on skincare, but like if you become so obsessed, I think like the only thing that would take it to a watch your back is that you become so obsessed that you start spending money that you should be spending on like rent and like practical goods. I completely hear what you're saying. I think my experience was such that one day I did not have a skincare routine whatsoever and was taking my makeup off with my hands and three years later I was drowning in all of these products that I genuinely thought made me a valuable person. Yeah. And it's hard to leave.

Once you learned, I think you're right. Something that could get it into the watch your back is once you learn everything about that there is to know about skincare, it's almost hard to unlearn and be okay aging. Pretty much. Not to mention some of those over the top lofty indeed transcendent promises that skincare brands will make that we talked about with Jess. They're hyperbole, but we take them seriously when they're saying like, this is an opportunity. This is going to change your life. Yeah. We don't always realize that that's just metaphor. I think for me it's just the fact that no one is twisting your arm. It is like overbearing the marketplace with like the marketing of skincare, but it is easy to defect

from. Yeah. Psychologically, for a time, it's hard to defect again because we have all these beauty standards and the aging standards and whatever, but like I genuinely feel like I'm able to engage with skincare healthily now or not. I mean, I'm getting Botox, you know, like that's not, but again, I'm just not willing to die on that hill and I don't think that Botox is ruining my life or the world. Yeah. I think Botox is fine. Botox saves a lot of people from really bad migraines. Yeah. There is a place for this technology. Yeah. I guess, I mean, I don't know. I, if marathon runners are a watcher back, I think skincare industry has got to be a watcher back. Because the other thing is that sometimes people will go so far with the skincare treatments

that they get professionally, like peels and facials that they'll end up getting burns. You know what? I didn't think of that because I was about to be like, but there's no like negative physical effect to like putting on a bunch of lotions on your face. But if you're talking skincare industry leading to plastic surgery, leading to like injury. Injury. People do like there are, oh my God, I remember so many horror stories of like peels gone wrong. Yeah, peels. I don't even know what a peel, I don't even know what it that is. So it's, it's a really high concentration of a chemical like an alpha hydroxy acid, something like a lactic acid or a glycolic acid applied in heavy, heavy concentrations to your face that will literally like zap your top

skincare layer off. Why are we trying to remove our layers of skin so that you can look fresher? I'm telling you like, are we snakes? Oh, skincare industry is snaky. It is snaky. It is so snaky. I mean, there is literally a skincare product called Snake Oil. Caroline Calloway, anyone? But yeah, I think because of the, because of the potential for extreme and injury and due to the combination of skincare with like social media and beauty standards and all the rest, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna land on a light watcher back. And I actually don't want to be too overtly critical of the skincare industry. You know, I like my skincare routine. I think it's fun. I actually think I notice a big difference when I do it versus when I don't. Yeah, I think skincare routines can

be really healthy for your like daily routines. It gets you into a rhythm. For sure. And I literally notice a physical difference when I do my simple steps versus when I don't. And so sue me. I like it when my skin looks a little better. Yeah, who cares? Who cares? And I have met some lovely, smart, well intentioned, honest people in the skincare industry like Renee Rulo, who's the esthetician we've been hearing throughout the episode. I use her products. I stand by them. And I literally use Osea products. That's why we accepted them as a sponsor. I by no means think that skincare is a get the fuck out level called I just wish it weren't so exclusively focused on women. And I wish it weren't pitched us something that we need in order to fix something that is

fundamentally defective about us. Okay, I'm going to land on a live your life for the general public. But if you're talking about American women, just because we are so highly exposed to the extreme and the extremes and Americans are so much about extremes, I would say American women, it's a watch your back, larger world at large, it's a live your life. All right, well, you heard it here. Australians, you're chilling. You're chilling. I wear sunscreen because I heard it's sunny down under. I guess for the opposite part of the year that it is here. Yeah, that's our show. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back for the new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds like a cult is created, hosted and produced by Amanda Montell

and Issa Medina. Kate Elizabeth is our editor. Our podcast studio is all things comedy and our theme music is by Kaseph Hulb. Thank you to our intern slash production assistant Naomi Griffin. Subscribe to Sounds Like a Cult wherever you get your podcasts. So you never miss an episode. And if you like our show, feel free to give us a rating and review on Spotify or Apple podcasts. And check us out on Patreon at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.