Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Sleepaway Camp

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

What happens when a seemingly innocent summer camp experience turns into a breeding ground for conformity, control, and groupthink? This week, Reese and Chelsea dive deep into the cult-like rituals of sleepaway camps, unpacking how a place meant for childhood fun can quickly slip into something far darker. From initiation rituals to absurd team-building exercises, we explore how sleepaway camps use isolation, authority, and shared secrets to create an all-encompassing sense of belonging. What happens when the quest for friendship and personal growth starts feeling more like a psychological experiment? With bizarre camp traditions, strict hierarchies, and a little bit of manipulation, we trace the fine line between team spirit and maybe a little mind control.  Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles.  Thank you to our sponsors! Head to ⁠https://www.squarespace.com/CULT⁠ to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code CULT Get your summer savings and shop premium wireless plans at ⁠https://MINTMOBILE.com/cult⁠  Go to https://Quince.com/slac for free shipping on your order and 354 -day returns. Please consider donating to those affected by ICE activity in the LA Area. Team SLAC are donating to the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights, an LA-based immigrant rights organization providing legal services, policy advocacy, and direct aid to those most impacted. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform to help entrepreneurs build a beautiful website and sell absolutely anything from products to content to even your valuable time. Sounds like a cult is a Squarespace website. I can't think of another website building platform that's easier than Squarespace. And that's because of so many of Squarespace's core features, including their design intelligence, which combines decades of industry-leading design expertise with cutting edge AI intelligence. Squarespace's core features, including their design intelligence, which combines decades of industry-leading design expertise with cutting-edge AI intelligence. Squarespace Payments is also an incredible feature. It's really easy and quick to set up. What I also think is really cool about Squarespace websites is that you can use them to build a fundraiser. It makes that process super

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The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Hi, Sounds Like a Cult pod. This is Anna calling in from Vancouver, Canada. And I think the cultiest thing about summer camp is that I have camp friends I haven't talked to in 10 years. And if they text me and say,

hey, I need to bury a dead body, you know what? I'm gonna be there for them. Love the pod, thanks. This is Anna from Camerapark, California. And the cultiest thing about the sleepaway camp I went to growing up was the tattoos. There was a song that we would sing at campfire that went something like,

there is a daisy on my toe. It is not real. It does not grow. And the hardcore camp kids would become counselors and they would get a tattoo of a daisy on their toe. And when you're out in the wild, you could find your people because they would have this tattoo.

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about modern day cults we all follow. I'm Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and one of your co-hosts of Sounds Like a Cult. And I am Reese Oliver, your co-host and Sounds Like a Cult's coordinator. Every week on the show, we discuss a different group or group that puts the cult in culture, from Costco lovers to Mark Zuckerberg, to try to answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into?

Is it a live your life? Is it a watch your back? Or a get the fuck out? After all, not every fanatical, ritualistic, cult-seeming group these days is equally destructive. Cultish influence falls along a spectrum. The point of this show is to analyze how zealotry shows up in everyday life, to have a bit of gawk and guffaw at humans' search for meaning, and to legitimately critique how power abuse might show up in unexpected places.

Unexpected places like, say, a cult of sun-kissed, bug spray-scented campers promising lifelong friendships, leadership skills, and an escape from the mundane. We are talking sleepaway camps this week on Sounds Like a Cult, the quintessential American rite of passage that is way more than just a fun place to go roast some marshmallows. With camp traditions, spooky initiation rituals, and an exclusive sense of belonging, sleepaway camps have mastered the art of creating a community that is so tight-knit. You'd swear it's a cult. So listeners, I know that you hear that we're missing a very special voice today.

Amanda is not recording with us today because she is in the weeds, baby, planning for her upcoming nuptials. She has abandoned us for the cult of weddings. It's fine. I just feel a little left out, a little like a baby because I am the only one who is not in the cult of married people or who won't be in the cult of married people out of the slack co-hosts. But you know, I suppose there's a place for all of us here. You got time. Amanda, we love you and we hope that we will do this episode justice for you, baby. Yes, we dedicate this one to our camp counselor of sorts, Miss Amanda. Chelsea, are you a sleepaway camper? So, okay.

So I did go to sleepaway camp when I was in middle school. First of all, in the 90s, if you are a 90s baby, I am a millennial. So a lot of the content that I consumed was sleep away camps, okay? I'm talking Parent Trap, I'm talking Bug Juice, okay? If you watch Bug Juice and you know, if you know, you know. And I was obsessed with the movie Heavyweights,

and it was a comedy and it was amazing. And so I begged my mom to go to sleep away camp, and I scoured the internet for a sleep away camp that I felt would give me all the experiences, okay? This sleep away camp even had the blob. And I- What? Yes, it had the infamous blob.

I coerced one of my friends in middle school to ask her mom to go. And we ended up going to this camp called Camp Estrumma in Greenwell Springs, Louisiana. It was in the boonies. And it ended up being a Methodist sleepaway camp. I went to the Instagram just to see if Campa Struma was still a thing and in their bio, their mission statement, developing disciples, forming friendships, impacting lives through Jesus. Okay.

Good old evangelism. through Jesus, okay? Good old evangelism. We love it. Yeah, we went to the tabernacle five times a day. Listen, I had a really good sleepaway camp experience aside from the heavy, heavy evangelism, but it was lit. Right, I'm getting Jamie Loftus horse camp vibes. The theme I get from camps is that usually religion is the price you pay to do all the

other fun stuff because that's what's making it a tax write off for the people running the camp, I assume. Exactly. So always at the scene of the crime are little children that may or may not be being coerced into participating in organized religion. I was not a sleepaway camper. I was a stay with my grandparents over the summer kind of kid. I went to a day camp and that was also surprise Christian day camp once you get there.

So see, see, see. That's how they get us. That's how they get us. So my my experience with sleepaway camp was through media. Also seeing like I wore I wore a goosebbumps shirt today for those of you watching the video because the book about Camp Cold Lake, I think is what it was called, that is so imprinted in my brain.

Camp was always something that I was like, wow. That seems equally really cool and also like a lot of outdoorsy shit I don't wanna do. Yeah. For me, I was, well, obviously this was not my reality by the time I got to Sleep Away Camp. I only did a week, first of all. But when I watched the show Bug Juice, which was a reality show about campers, I guess

I just fantasized about having my first camp boyfriend. I didn't really too much care about the outdoorsy stuff that I would be learning. I cared about the... The rite of passage. Yeah. The camp boyfriends. So...

It very much did seem like a runaway from your parents and go escape and have fun and frolic for a few weeks, which is so funny. And Breeds, I feel so much cultishness on so many levels. Absolutely. Because we're all experiencing like puberty at the same time. And it's like a communal experience. And you get to be away from your parents and establish your own, I don't know, morning routine

and just do your own thing. And you build your own relationships without having someone hovering over you. And obviously the camps had camp counselors, but those camp counselors were teens themselves. So they weren't policing anything. Okay. Yeah. Nobody was. I am remembering now I did go to science camp in fifth grade, which is I think like the most from what I understand sleepaway camp is much more of an East coast thing. Like I feel like over here, it's not really as much of a thing, but I went into the forest and learned

about science for five days. And I do remember that feeling of like, Oh, wow, I feel like over here, it's not really as much of a thing. But I went into the forest and learned about science for five days. And I do remember that feeling of like, oh, wow, I don't have my mom to orient me in the world and to socialize me with other people. She sent me with a stack of Better Homes and Gardens magazines to read because that was what I liked at the time in fifth grade, so I wouldn't be bored. And she wrote me little letters reminding me to brush my teeth. And yeah, I just remember, like, they would they would pass out every day. They'd be like, OK, here's your letter from your parents for today.

And I do feel like it was like a baby dorm experience almost. Yes. Oh, that's very sweet. I definitely remember deciding that I was not going to go back. And spoiler alert, it had nothing to do with the religious indoctrination. I was all about the tabernacle, honey. It was the fact that somebody got chickers. I was like, ew. No.

I'm good. I'm good. I never actually have to do this again. I'm fine. Keep your blob. Yeah. And that's on lack of supervision. And with that, let's get into the history of sleepaway camps.

You know us at Slack, we like to start at the beginning. Give you some context. Sleepaway camps, as we know them today, trace their origins back to the late 19th century, when the first camps were founded in the Northeastern United States, as I alluded to. Born out of the desire to provide urban children with an opportunity to experience the rugged outdoors, these early camps offered a respite from city life where kids could reconnect with nature, develop survival skills, embrace a more communal, simplified existence, you know, all that Boy Scout stuff. The very first sleepaway camp, Camp Wahalo, was established in 1893 in Maine by Clara and John H. Newcomb. The camp was based on the idea of promoting physical health, outdoor education, and moral development, kind of pretty basic sleepaway camp stuff.

And this marked the beginning of a new tradition that would become a staple of American childhood, if not in reality, then definitely in cultural zeitgeist and in media perception. The popularity of these camps grew rapidly in the early 20th century and by the mid 1900s sleepaway camps had evolved beyond these like simple little retreats into like full-blown immersive experiences. We got team-based activities, three-legged race that met you last week and we're tying our legs together and we're tie-dying some shirts, baby. Some rituals, you know, we're slitting our palms, we're beating some bracelets, all that culty good stuff, and the formation of lifelong friendships, you know, something I hear from my friends who went to summer camp year after year was that you have your friends that you reconnect with each year and you kind of check in on how you grow in the time since you've seen each other, which I think is quite

sweet. The post-World War II boom in middle-class America saw like a sharp rise in camp attendance. People had all these kids and nothing to do with them. And parents were looking for ways to provide their kids with like enriching experiences that were educational and character building and hands off for them. Today, sleepwalk camps have become a cultural institution, fostering everything from leadership and personal development to fostering just like a deep sense of community and friendship that isn't found many other places in American culture, I feel. What once began as a seasonal escape from urban life has become a deeply rooted American tradition, a rite of passage, as I said, for many kids

and a nostalgic memory for generations of alumni. Yeah. While you were talking, I thought about we keep making the caveat of like summer camps, like day camps, but they were equally as important in my childhood specifically because I'm thinking about all of the people that I went to day camp with, who we went to the summer camp and then we ended up working at that same summer camp. We're all from the same hometown. We still check in on each other to this day.

And it does offer a sense of community that you've established with these people that it's a unique experience that you can't explain to other people if they weren't there. They just don't get it, you know? I think it's interesting because a lot of these people that we become friends or acquaintances with throughout these like third places we find ourselves with throughout life like school and like clubs and things like that. They're often oriented around like a specific interest or a specific goal or like a specific developmental benchmark. So once you surpass it or reach it, you kind of associate those people with that thing. But I feel like the purpose of camp being like, essentially having fun and learning how to be a

good person means that those connections with those people are like oftentimes a lot more wholesome and meaningful because they're not attached to anything like superficial or externally motivated. Oh, I love that. That actually brings me to my next point. Before jumping into the traditions and rituals and lore associated with summer camps,

we have to delve into the psychological appeal of sleep away camps. What is it about being away from home from weeks on in under the guidance of strangers that makes sleepaway camp such a formative experience? And I believe the answer lies in a delicate balance of autonomy, community, and identity formation. Sleepaway camps offer kids an escape from the predictable routines of home and school, presenting an opportunity to step into a world where they can reinvent themselves. Dr. Wendy M. Groenick, a psychiatrist who studies

childhood development, notes camps provide children with a rare environment where they can explore new identities and try on new roles without the pressure of home life or school cliques. This sense of independence, often for the first time in a child's life, can be incredibly empowering. Furthermore, the intense socialization that occurs at a summer camp fosters a unique bond between campers. Quote, the sense of community that forms in a sleepaway camp can be profound, says clinical psychologist Dr. Sandra J.

Anderson. Quote, in this environment, children are not only developing social skills, but also forming lasting connections with peers who share a common experience. End quote. It's a form of group identity that can be addictive, fostering loyalty and lifelong

friendships. So my question for you is, do you think kids today still crave that kind of independence and social bonding at camp, or is it different now with social media? I mean, I definitely think everybody having so much access to each other at all times makes a place like camp feel less exclusive. The lack of physical supervision from parents is probably still a big draw for a lot of kids. But I would be incredibly intrigued to see how these camps are interacting with social

media now that you bring that up. Is it like a no phones deal? Because I almost feel like if I'm a little TikTok addicted child, I'm looking at summer camp like, oh, they're probably gonna take my phone away and make me go throw water balloons or something like that. Or alternatively, is it like, let me go make TikToks with my friends for two weeks without my parents. I feel like it could go either way.

It might just depend on the kid and it might just depend on the camp. Okay, so that is interesting to think about. So this kind of falls a little into the cult of reality TV and it is often a main topic on social media when people are like, oh yeah, you take the cast members' cell phones and you remove their window to the outside world.

But it's so important because I do a lot of dating shows with Gen Z specific people. And it is so important to pry that phone out of the Gen Zer's hand so that they can connect with each other. It's very important because if so, we would just be watching people do the exact same thing. It would be so, so, so boring. So you bring up a good point.

I do think that- They probably do have some type of like guidelines when going to those sleep away camps, like, uh-uh, give me that phone, give me that tablet. That's how you socialize. That's how you build lasting connections with people. So yeah, I agree. I hope the kids are still doing all the good Kulti IRL stuff

and not just like the bad Kulti social media stuff. I see IRL stuff and not just like the bad cult-y social media stuff. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform to help entrepreneurs or podcasters or artists build a beautiful website, reach their audience, and sell absolutely anything from products to content to even your valuable time. Sounds like a cult is a Squarespace website. It was super easy to build. I can't think of another website building platform

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Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. Hi, colties and hi, Chelsea and Reese. This is Amanda, but calling in this week as a listener

rather than a host. okay I think the cultiest thing about sleepaway camp is the pranks. when I was in middle school I went to a sleepaway theater camp, its own kind of culty beast, and on the last day of camp there was a rule that you were not supposed to fall asleep. an unspoken rule you know one of these camp ritual type rule that you were not supposed to fall asleep, an unspoken rule, you know, one of these camp ritual type rules, that you were not supposed to fall asleep because something very foreboding might befall you. But I wasn't feeling very well,

so I snuck away to take a quick nap. And when I woke up, I was covered in obscenities that had been written on my skin in Sharpie, and I had shaving cream sprayed all over me and it was honestly super humiliating. So I think that the prank aspect of sleepaway camp, particularly for middle schoolers, as was immortalized in the incredible film The Parent Trap, are something quite culty about sleepaway camp. I'm Adriana.

I'm calling from Northeast Ohio. I think the urban legends, especially Slender Man and any other terrifying campfire story, make sleepaway camps so culty because I was always so terrified hearing those stories from other kids that I'd never went to one. Do we want to get into some of the conformity and rituals that lie within the mysterious sleepaway camps? Absolutely. So in exploring communities of any kind, we cannot ignore the fact that they thrive on conformity. Everybody looking the same, acting the same, that's kind of what makes a group of people a group of people in the first place. Duh. Dr. Cathy L. Sturman, a sociologist who specializes in group behavior, notes, quote, at sleepaway camp, the pressure to conform is omnipresent. From the moment campers arrive, they're thrust into a world of shared routines and rituals that create a sense of

belonging, but also shape their behavior in ways that reflect the collective identity of the group." End quote. I totally think about like Percy Jackson with this or like Camp Rock, the song. Oh my gosh. Imagine how stressful that would be if you got there and you didn't know the song. I can't imagine.

Although like, I guess that's part of the whole hierarchy of the summer camp is that you learn the song and then you're one of the cool kids at Camp Rock. Oh, continuing on. Sleepaway camps also, with conformity, have a clear social hierarchy. You can't have one without the other. As Dr. Sandra C. Bott, a child psychologist, points out, older campers often hold power not just because of their experience, but because they've internalized the camp's rituals. They become the models for behavior, establishing an unspoken social order that guides how kids

relate to each other." This social structure, where leadership and seniority matter so much, can make campers feel both connected to their peers and really constrained within the group that they're placed in. So for many kids, the sense of belonging fostered by these rituals and hierarchies is like a key part of the camp experience, totally part of the draw. I see kids who end up going into Greek life as part of this category. Shout out Chelsea.

Gang gang. Woop. Whereas for others, the pressure to conform can be like really stifling and like harsh the mellow of the experience. But in either case, the balance between community and conformity is what makes sleepaway camps so psychologically unique. So in talking about this kind of power dynamic, how these older campers hold power because they've mastered the camp rituals, do you think this creates a sense of like fairness and a meritocracy of sorts, or do you think it reinforces social exclusion for younger kids? The way that I've seen it

illustrated via movies and real life, I feel like it's a sort of like rite of passage for the younger kids to be kind of ushered into the experience by the older kids. Yeah. The whole point of going to Camp Rock is that by the end, you learn how to rock, as the title implies. You don't get there knowing how to rock. You learn. And it also gives the older kids a sense of responsibility.

Now some of them may abuse that power sometimes, obviously, but when I think of movie, I keep referencing Heavy Weights because that's one of my favorite depictions of a sleepaway camp. But like Heavy Weights was about, if you haven't watched the movie, please go watch it today. But I loved it because it centered around a weight loss camp

and the kids who had gone year after year ushered the new kids in and for some reason it felt like they exemplified a sense of pride in their community that they had established. So for me, I think it feels like a rite of passage just in what I see in depictions of sleepaway camps in Hollywood specifically. I think I tend to agree. I also feel like especially if it's something where the idea is that you go year after year, they kind of have to be not only promising the parent, but also the child that you're going to be doing something and developing in some way throughout that

time. So I think it keeps it from being repetitive and ensures that they're learning all of those good things that they're supposed to learn where it's like, no, your kid's going to have to practice what they've been taught and put all these things into practice. When we talk about power dynamics, obviously the idea of safeness comes up because obviously if you put, like we were talking about earlier, a group of kids in an environment where there is some sort of hierarchy and even still with the camp counselors who are not, like a lot of them were around the same age bracket, but a little too older to be around.

Like, kids. It's pretty sketch sounding. Like, it doesn't feel responsible. Yes, I fully agree. So while sleepaway camps are often idolized as places where kids can form lifelong friendships and escape the stress of everyday life, there is a darker reality that some children face. Stories of abuse and overzealous camp behavior. The power dynamics that come with camp counselor-camper relationships can sometimes cross the line,

leading to serious consequences. For example, a lawsuit filed against Camp Rama and the Berkshires involved a 15-year-old camper who was sexually assaulted by a fellow camper. The lawsuit claims that the camp's leadership, including camp director, Rabbi Ethan Linden, mishandled the situation by not immediately reporting the assault to authorities and advising

the victim not to contact her parents for two weeks, which okay. Whoa. Whoa. This case sheds light on the importance of strong oversight and accountability in camp environments to ensure that safety and wellbeing are prioritized. Furthermore, many sleepaway camps have longstanding traditions in exclusionary practices, particularly regarding gender and sex orientation.

For example, camps that only allow boys or girls to attend or camps that segregate boys and girls in ways that enforce rigid gender roles have faced backlash. This reminds me of a Netflix series that I watched and it came out last year, I think, and it was Swedish. A nearly normal family. The show starts with a similar dynamic, a young girl, I think she was like 15, at a sleepaway camp

who was assaulted by a camp counselor. And now that I think of it, I'm like, was this what this was based on? Anyway, her parents actually were the ones who decided not to go forth and press charges against her abuser. And the thing is for me, obviously it follows the relationships that she started having with men later on in her life. And it made me think about how many of these cases do we actually not know about?

How many of these environments where, you know, we just blindly send our children off to these communities and we're just trusting that they're in a space where they're being properly taken care of. It's a little, like you said, sketch and scary, scary to even think about. That's even a possibility that they could be put in harm's way.

Yeah, I think especially when the structure of the organization is so, not to say the blind leading the blind, but children leading children, it can give way to like Lord of the Flies-y dynamics super quick. And I definitely think that that's something we should be more wary of. And I think that even in situations where it's like more adults are running the show, when I think of like worst case scenarios regarding sleepaway camps, my brain goes to the troubled teen industry. Just essentially for a season, placing our child under someone else's care in any regard is always a little

spooky. It's just funny how different it can be. And especially as someone who has never been to sleepaway camp myself, I feel like the depictions I've gotten from media and the stories that I've heard from people around me, I get really conflicting messages as to how much you are held accountable for the good behavior. Like some summer camps are depicted as being super rigid, super very like you're living the structured day and some of them are very Lord of the Flies hands off, you're doing whatever you want. And with that, let's get into what kind of made us want to talk about this episode. You've been alluding to all of your favorite references. I feel like you came from like, you got all

of the good summer camp media as a 90s kid. I feel like there's not that much good summer camp media for me because like we talked about, it was kind of like, yeah, yeah. We had like iCarly. The big thing was like, I'm making a web series. Yes. Yes. So I'm about to learn me a thing. Let's get into the how sleepaway camps are depicted in Hollywood. When you think of sleepaway camps, you're thinking campfires, canoe trips, bug bites, lifelong friendships. But in the world of horror films, I'm thinking American Horror Story 1984, that was a good season. Those once innocent retreats become breeding grounds for terror. Sleepaway camps are the perfect setting for horror because they tap into a very primal fear,

the fear of being isolated far from home in an environment that should be safe but isn't. In these films, the counselors are often as dangerous as the monsters lurking in the woods, and the summer fun quickly turns into a fight for survival. From Friday the 13th to Sleepaway Camp, horror films have long exploited the sleepaway camp setting to deliver spine-chilling thrills. These films, along with The Burning, The Final Girls, and Camp Crystal Lake Horror, that's what it was. Boom, we got there. All tap into the same formula.

An isolated tight-knit group of people, usually hot people, a secluded camp, and a killer lurking just beyond the trees. And the camp setting works so well in these horror movies because it strips away the comfort and the familiarity of your home surroundings and replaces it with vulnerability and surroundings that are foreign to you. The idea of being cut off from the outside world

in a place that's like supposed to be a fun and carefree retreat creates the perfect atmosphere for just like being terrified. It is a twisted version of the ultimate childhood rite of passage where instead of bonding over s'mores, campers are fighting for their lives. They are getting their just desserts, not eating them. The juxtaposition of innocence and terror makes the theme of sleepaway camps and horror films not only effective,

but very enduring in Hollywood. Yeah. I think about a scary story that I learned when I was at sleepaway camp that still lives rent free to this day. Okay. Sleepaway camps is just if fosters an environment that gives creepy. I'm away from my mama. I'm at a campfire with a whole bunch of people. I don't know. And this creepy camp counselor is I don't, like telling me ghost stories about this place I've never been to.

Dog. It's spooky. And you said something super interesting that I didn't think about until just now, but like, baby, the 90s, they were in their bag with the horror Sleepaway Camp content. Like, because that's all, I mean, that's the reason I went. I'm sure all my 90s babies, 90s and 80s millennial babies who are listening can agree with me

there. Like that is the allure of camp because it's creepy, but it's also like, I kind of I kind of want to. It's exciting. It feels like a little rebellious, but it's also condoned by your parents. Like, I don't know, I feel like it kind of did also mark you as a cool kid when you went back to school, if you had come from camp.

It was definitely like, there was a social exchange value there. You're like three shades tanner, you have like beads in your hair, like you're white, you shouldn't do that. Like... You've got chiggers. You look... Exactly! Cudi bit into death.

You haven't bathed. Yeah, and you've been eating God knows what. Exactly, cootie bit into death. You haven't bathed. Yeah, and you've been eating God knows what. Oh yeah, summer camp. Those were the days, honey. Summer is just around the corner slash here, and the folks at Mint Mobile have a hot take. You should be spending your summer cash on vacations,

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chic, versatile white ankle boots that I can wear with anything from a sundress to like a more professional work outfit. Quince stuff is the best. Give your summer closet an upgrade with Quince. Go to quince.com slash SLAC for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's q u i n c e dot com slash SLAC to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com slash SLAC. Hi, my name is Drea. I am calling from Denver, Colorado. And for me, the cultiest part of sleepway camps was that you're deep in the mountains, you rarely have any cell service or access to Wi Fi. And when you're younger, you don't have a car or an ability to leave. So you're stuck up there for like a week with this group of very few adults and a bunch

of kids with no access to the outside and no ability to leave this if it gets weird or culty or you don't want to be there. This is Shannon calling from East Lansing, Michigan. I can't even begin to explain how culty it is to be a kid at sleepaway camp, woken up by your counselors having no idea that this was gonna happen and they were gonna say come on let's go do this camp tradition Where at midnight we go hiking in the woods or swimming in the lake. And all of a sudden it feels like you're in a scary cult movie.

That is fun, but you can't shake that culty feeling either. Okay, Reese, I do have a question for you. If we could put a label on it, who would the cult leaders of sleep away camps be? I mean, I think the appeal is that you're joining the cult of the kid, kind of similar to Nickelodeon. You're going to be led by teenagers. So in a way, I want to say the counselors because they're the ones that are like actually probably practically having

the most tangible effect on campers days. But I mean, I suppose it would be camp directors. The fact that we don't know anything about the camp directors and that they're kind of faceless, it does kind of make me feel like they might be the cult leaders that we don't know very much about. What do you think? I think the directors as well, because it's indoctrination passed on from the director

to the camp counselors, then the older kids, and then the young and impressionable, very baby, baby kids. Just speaking from my own experience with sleepaway camps, obviously I went to a church sleepaway camp and it was ran by a church and we had our director, he was a pastor. And obviously he had a vision for what he wanted his camp to be about, which is why we communed in the tabernacle five times a day. I keep saying that, but that's, I'm not being hyperbolic. That actually was a thing. And so if in comparison to cults, he would be the cult leader, the

directors. Absolutely. Something I was thinking about was like the multi-generational trauma of camps and camp counseling and how very much like MLMs, it feels like a cyclical cult. Like you go there as a kid and you attend and you go there from maybe like second grade until you are too cool for it in high school or whatever. Or maybe like that's the thing, it kind of, it can surpass the too coolness

because those are your kid friends and you go until you're done with high school. And you move into the counselor phase, I think actually is the too cool phase, is you become a leader in that, right? You're growing, you're counseling. And then when you're a parent, what do you do? You send your kids to the same camp that you went to

and it all starts over again. And I feel like in these ways, yeah, the director, definitely the leader because when they recruit that first camper, they're kind of like establishing themselves a line of income that if they can count on that camper one day having kids, this is real cynical. But like, you know, each camper is a separate stream of income potentially forever. And also like you said something about income, it definitely is important to talk about there

is a cost that's associated with the camps. I touched on that I was only, I literally went to sleepaway camp once, didn't go again because of the chiggers, but I went for a week because it's very expensive to go to sleepaway camp. And I had a single mom and she was just trying to figure things out and here goes her little middle schooler

like, hey, I need to go to be, I need to go feel cool. And so, I mean, obviously these are much like our cult of boarding schools. These type of environments are specifically geared towards a well-to-do family structure. And I guess it fosters a sense of us versus them, which is a theme that we see often in cults where this is exclusionary. This is a full rich families. This is for the rich kids who get to enjoy this.

I think about the shows, like, I mean, the movie, The Parent Trap, that was a well-to-do family that sent their twins that didn't know they were twins, hashtag Lindsey Lohan, off to enjoy this camp that is not really necessarily affordable to every community. So... Yeah, there is something kind of nefarious about these rich parents being like, let me go and pay for this, like, expensive...

It's childcare, but it's also amusement, and, it's childcare, but it's also amusement. And it's also parenting and it's also everything. And while I'm doing that, I'm also putting the labor of that childcare on to probably these teenagers who are making like a minimum wage and were like went through this camp themselves. It kind of contributes to the slimy vibe for sure. And it's definitely not cheap. I mean, it can't be cheap because yeah, they're providing like sports activities. They're feeding these kids. They're paying the kids, taking care of the kids.

Definitely a huge money hit. We had a blob. Yeah, that's expensive. Yeah. I think about the insurance is associated with all of that stuff. Yeah. My production line goes there immediately. I'm like, oh, the insurance. Yeah. My production mind goes there immediately. I'm like, oh, the insurance.

Yeah. I'm remembering something culty about my science camp that I went to vis a vis their like production costs and everything. They were like very, very neurotic about food waste, which is awesome. I think everyone should be neurotic about food waste. I think food waste is a huge issue and we shall be more aware of it. But they were very adamant on everybody finishing their food because they could only afford so much of it for so many campers, you know? And at the end of all of the meals, they would weigh up everybody's leftovers and they had like a goal marker that we would like try to hit below. But I think there was definitely an incentive for low food waste, which isn't a bad thing, but that was definitely an influence on my eating

habits that I wasn't used to that I don't think my like my parents didn't necessarily know was happening. Right. Damn, that's a good initiative that they had. That's a really good initiative, but that's a little little sauce. Okay, Chelsea, you teased at the beginning that what drew you to camp was not the tabernacle, but all of the smooching that you could have been doing. I feel like there is definitely something to be said about the romantic respite that summer camps can create. Do you think that summer camps provide a safe environment for kids to explore these urges? Or do you think that the attractive quality of participating in these activities, maybe lead kids into participating in things

they're not ready for with insufficient supervision. Ooh, I do not think that it fosters a safe environment. And let me tell you why. Okay, first of all, spoiler alert, no smooching happened. I didn't read the fine print. Listen, okay? She did not get what she signed up for. That is cold. Yeah, I didn't read the fine print, listen, okay? She did not count which is enough for that, it's cold. Yeah, I didn't read the fine print, but also in hindsight as an adult,

when I think back to those environments, obviously anything romantic would not have been championed like I fantasized when watching Bug Juice. But furthermore, we touched on this a little bit, but same sexsex relationships, definitely, especially in religious-based, faith-based sleepaway camps, are not champion. And so I think it's like a very awkward stage to be in, especially like when you're just at that age

of like self-exploration. When you're in an environment where it doesn't foster a sense of safeness, I think it definitely causes a lot of social pressures that interfere with development in ways that aren't always necessarily for the better. Like when I was at Science Camp, I remember being like, oh my God, am I supposed to be a casing boys? Like, are people doing that here? Like, I'm here to look at the stars. Like, so I think that for that reason, it can introduce a cultish aspect, especially

when you're a camper and you're seeing your counselors hooking up, so maybe some of them are in relationships. This is also a vacation for them at the end of the day. They're working, but they're also playing. And their kids as well. All of it, such a culty. It's giving Love Island for kids. It's giving reality dating shows for kids. Listen, all my Love Island cast refers to me as a camp counselor. They're big sister camp counselor because that is how I... I'm not saying they're the same. I'm just saying they're the same. That's how I treat the environment, okay? You're all my little babies and yeah.

So I choose the environment, okay? You're all my little babies, and yeah. Hi, my name is Kaya from Long Beach, and I would have to say the cultiest thing about Sleepaway Camp is that they can get a bunch of teens and adults to volunteer at camps, especially the Sleepaway Camps. You have hours of training leading up to it. You have the week or weeks that you're there taking care of

children and it's all unpaid. It's all just volunteer work, even down to the directors. That being said, I'm 25 years deep into my sleepaway cult and I love it. I've got two tattoos dedicated to them. I eloped at my camp and I literally almost went into labor with my first child at camp but my husband said no, you need to stay home. And the day that they all left for camp is the day that my water broke.

So my child was also almost born at camp. My name is Allie Grace and I'm calling from Boone, North Carolina. I think the cultiest thing about Sleepaway Summer Camp is that the camp I worked at had counselors choose new names to go by, such as Clover or Marshmallow. They said this is to protect the counselor's identities, but it felt like I wasn't

able to be myself and was taking on a campier persona. Also at my camp we were paid to work 40 hours a week, but in reality we were working 22 hour days for the five days each group of campers were there. We were still working while sleeping and eating. We had to respond to campers who woke up in the middle of the night and were watching the campers during all of our meals to only get paid about $300 for the whole week. So I actually want to get into a game, Reese.

And this game is a game of Would You Rather, which it's not foreign to us here on Sounds Like a Cult, but this version of Would You Rather, which it's not foreign to us here on Sounds Like a Cult, but this version of Would You Rather is based on rituals that are very unique to the world of sleep away camps, okay? So are you down? Let's do it. Okay, Would You Rather.

Lead a group of campers in a 24 hour scavenger hunt where they must find items based on cryptic riddled clues that only you know how to decode or be blindfolded and led through an obstacle course by your cabin mates but you can't talk and they can't help. Chelsea, I have such bad issues with control. Why would you ask me this? Let's see. I can't talk and they can't help.

Obstacle course. See, I think my rhetorical abilities are stronger than my hand-eye coordination. So as frustrating as it sounds, I think I'm going to lead the group of campers. That's real. Yeah, me too. I don't like to be boring. Don't do that. Okay, question two.

Would you rather have a nighttime ghost story circle where campers take turns telling their most terrifying tales, but with a twist? Every story must end with a cheesy punchline. Or hold an impromptu talent show where campers must perform any talent they can think of on the spot. And yes, everyone must participate. No backing out. Mmm...

I'm a sadist and I like making people do improv, so I think I'm gonna go with the ghost story circle. Because I also feel like the Improv 2 talent show is kind of giving, like, give us a fun fact. And I feel like that's a lot of pressure for people. Whereas if everybody's doing the same thing and everybody can kind of agree that they're gonna be kind of bad at it,

I feel like people are more in. Oh, that's real. What about you? What do you think? Oh, no. I'm not doing a ghost stories. I don't like ghost stories. Y'all know where I'm from. I believe in ghosts, so I don't like playing with them things. So I would say I'm gonna pass on that. I'll do the talent show. I will lead the talent show.

I am that girl. I will lead the talent show. Oh, I feel like you would actually be such a fun camp counselor, Chelsea. I was a fun camp counselor. Yeah, like I feel like I would have wanted you to be my counselor, for sure. I would have been like, I hope I get Chelsea, and then I would not have, for sure. I'm screaming. Okay, next one.

Would you rather wake up at 5 a.m. and lead a sunrise yoga and chanting session on the beach, trying to get all the campers to channel their inner peace, even if you can't remember the poses. Or would you rather participate in a color war, but each team member must wear an outrageously themed costume that has no connection to their team color. Think Giant Banana or Underwater Explorer.

Let's see. I think I'm gonna go yoga, cause that sounds funny. Yeah, yoga's better. Yeah, and like you said, color war sounds a little funny. That sounds a little funny. That's another camp tradition that I always saw.

I always saw this on TV and I was always like, yeah, no, that doesn't look fun to me. I don't want to be covered in shit. I'm good. Yeah, that's real. No, that's real. Okay, fine. Okay, fine. Hi, my name is Krista and I think camp is absolutely a cult, but it's like a good one. In my friend group, at least 10 of us have tattoos from our time at camp and most are

variations of the star constellation that symbolized our camp's name. We are literally branded. If that's not culty, I don't know what is. Second, ghost stories and mythical creatures. Every camp has them. Urs featured the legend of White Eyes, which I think a lot of other camps also had. It was a mysterious figure with glowing eyes

who shows up at night with unclear intentions, but presumably somewhere in the kidnap murder spectrum is where you would fall if you ran into him. So camp is basically its own folklore department. Well, I think we've come to the part of the episode where we've got to deliver a verdict. So Chelsea, out of a live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out,

what do you think the cult of sleepaway camps is? Okay, so earlier we were talking about a sense of community that sleepaway camps foster. Now, obviously it can be a little exclusionary when you think about camps that are specific to certain things, i.e. religious sleepaway camps, or with heavy weight, sleepaway camps that are supposed to lose weight and all the things.

But for me, the community is just the most important through line, especially for children in such a pivotal time in their lives when they're trying to develop a sense of identity. And for me, that's what makes sleep away camp a live your life. I loved sleep away camp, love, love, love sleep your life. I loved Sleepaway Camp.

Loved, loved, loved Sleepaway Camp. I'ma be honest with you. I know it was culty. I said we went to the Tabernacle five times a day, but we had a blob, okay? You had the blob. A girl got chiggers, okay? You can't just forget that. No.

That stays with you forever. I will never forget. And that's cult trauma. That's how it functions. Okay, you can't just forget. No, that stays with you for I will never forget. That's cult trauma. That's how it functions. That's how indoctrination works. Now this is you exercising that trauma onto others. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm gonna go hmm. I do think they are supremely culty. I think like they're kind of just the platonic ideal of cults. Like you're making the bracelets, you're matching, da da da. It's all so culty. But I think because it is a usually very transparently. So there's not a lot of deception occurring, I feel. And B, it's like really concentrated into a short period of time, which I think while enhancing its cultiness in the moment doesn't allow you to get super indoctrinatedinated because like I said, you're really only meeting up with these people like once a year in theory. So I don't think it can be super pervasive on the rest of your life. At least I would hope that's obviously excluding, you know, the troubled teen camps and some of the other crazy ones that episodes about the teens. So yeah, that being said, I think I'm gonna go live your life too. Live your life.

Period. Get sugars. I can't stop you. Oh my God. Okay. See, I mean, live your life, live your life, but also watch your back. Okay.

I do that, I do that. I do that every time. Cause I'm always, I'm always, you gotta watch your back. Okay? Keep your head on swivel. Real, you can never be too alert. Watch for your sending your kids. Moral of the story.

Yes, exactly, exactly. That is our show. Thanks so much for listening. Make sure to tune in next week for a new episode. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of the PodCabin. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles and hosted by Reese

Oliver and Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Kolb. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it a five stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out Amanda's book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism,

which inspired the show. You might also enjoy her other books, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality, and Word Slut, A Feminist's Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network, Studio71, and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult team

on Instagram for all of the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult Pod, or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. Culties, my desire to buy clothing that won't really stand the test of time, that desire is gone. And that is why I am so glad that Quince is sponsoring this podcast. They have so many amazing staples for summer,

including 100% European linen items, chic sundresses starting from just $30. And the best part about it is that Quince literally costs half the price of similar brands because they cut out the middleman. I have many things from Quince that I love, including these little versatile white ankle boots that I can wear with anything from a sundress to like a more professional work outfit. Give your summer closet an upgrade with Quince. Go to quince.com slash SLAC for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash SLAC to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash SLAC.