Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Taylor Swift, Part 2

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

It’s me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me, here with an update to one of our most-streamed episodes of all time, the cult of exalted idol bestie goddess mother queen angel (no, that’s not pandering to the standom! They're not intimidating at all!), Taylor Swift. Somehow, the pop icon’s “cult” has only exploded in size and religiosity since our last discussion, which was uploaded right as Midnights was dropping, pre-Eras Tour. Needless to say, there’s a lotttttt to catch up on. Whether you stan Taylor til the death or truly do not get what all the fuss is about, we hope you enjoy this part 2!! To check out Amanda's new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking, click here! Head to Isa Medina's IG or website to tell her where to perform stand up, keep up with her work and learn more about her new podcast coming in 2024. The Magical Overthinkers newsletter can be found here. Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod  I was never good at telling jokes but the punchline goes: If Taylor told her Swifties to kill a man, they would. They would kill a man for Taylor, because her music means *that* much to them. But the "cult" of country-pop sensation Taylor Swift is not just about the music. It's about the Swiftie community, the rituals, the beliefs, the aesthetic, and (of course) Taylor's cult of personality. This extreme fandom definitely seems classically culty, but is it dangerous just because it's fanatical? That's the question on Amanda and Isa's agenda today, and they've solicited pop culture connoisseur Jill Gutowitz, author of the essay collection GIRLS CAN KISS NOW, to help them figure it out. 

Hey, sounds like a cold pod. My name's Audra calling from New York City and I'm definitely as wifty and I think one culty aspect of the fandom that has felt different in the past two or so years is the fan obsession with the Easter eggs. It used to be that people kept an eye out for like, her nail polish huller or the capitalized litters and an album's lyrics pamphlet just to see who a song might be about or what the vibe of the next album might be. But now, it feels like people are obsessed with dissecting everything she does down to like to see who a song might be about or what the vibe of the next album might be. But now, it feels like people are obsessed with dissecting everything she does down to like the name and release year of a piece of clothing she wears or the number of vowels in one of her

tweets. And just enough of the conclusions people draw end up having merit to keep people looking for clues and increasingly more places. So it's just taking up more and more of these people's time and it's super healthy. Hi, my name is Avery. I'm from Denver, Colorado. I think the way that the Taylor Swift Cole has changed since he was, as I think people are really realizing and feeling nostalgic about how Taylor Swift and her music has been present through their entire lives. I went through elementary school, middle school, high school, college, and now I've been post-graded with Taylor Swift. She's had new music through every phase of my life, so she feels like a fixture. Hello, I'm Helen from Brooklyn, and I think the cultiest aspect of a post-era's tour Taylor Swift is definitely the outfits.

To say nothing of the willow cloaks, and I mean, anytime there's a cloak involved you know it's pretty culty but the fact that this woman had us all dressing up not just for her concert but just as excited to dress up for a movie theater experience is unheard of in my opinion. Hi this is Mi Mosa from Finland and as I am from a country where Eras tour is non-coming to I have seen how much effort Swift's have been pulling into just getting the tickets and being able to attend. So it feels like the tour itself has become bigger than life. My name is Maeve, I'm from Washington, DC. A lot of millennials had children and they now have little mini-sifties running around who were just born into it and have never known a world without Taylor Swift. So it's, I think think a new cult, you think that I've noticed, but maybe not necessarily one of the scary ones

which do exist. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults. We all follow. It's me. Hi, I'm the problem. It's me, your host, Amanda Montel, author of the book's cultish, the language of fanaticism, and the forthcoming The Age of Magical Overthinking, which will be published on April 9th. Every week on the show, you're going to hear about a different group or group that puts the cult in culture from soul cycle to the Supreme Court to try and answer it the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? Oh my god! Where to begin? The Cult of Taylor Swift. There was a second one. I was considering doing this bonus part 2 introduction using only Taylor Swift songpitals and lyrics because there are so many now, but then I decided against it because I don't want to pander too much to the Swifties during this episode. And I also

want even those outside the cult to be able to understand what I'm saying so in the end I decided that might not go overall too well. Swifty jokes. Okay, it was high time. Some might even say overdue that a cult of Taylor Swift part two episode hit the airwaves because our cult of Taylor Swift part one episode was recorded and posted right as Taylor's midnight's album was coming out. I mean, back then, we were thinking, like, how much bigger could this cult even really get? How much more power even is there for Taylor Swift to claim?

How much more charisma can she generate? How much more fanaticism and ritual can she inspire? But jokes on us because post-mit nights and in the midst of the era's tour era, holy friendship bracelets. Shit has only gotten ever more cultish. Sorry, I'm just gonna keep slipping those Taylor Easter eggs in here. I can't help myself, but let's get serious because it's really stunning how prior to the Aristotle, I felt like the cult of Swifties was still kind of at the fringes of society. Of course Taylor Swift's music is as mainstream as it gets. She's a household name, but Swiftie, culture, and rituals, and lore were still a mystery to the

average everyday person. The Aristotle changed all that. Rendering the cult of Taylor Swift less like an enigmatic sect on the edges of society and more like something like the cult of capitalism. It's the air we are all breathing. Because the Aristotle was truly this so-called monocultural world-dominating event in a culture of micro trends. You couldn't miss it if you tried.

It was like one of those surreal scenes in a movie where someone is haunted by some figure and every time they go outside or turn on the TV or switch on the radio, that thing is following them. When Taylor Swift was in Los Angeles where I live, I felt like I couldn't even go outside without confronting swifty fanaticism. It's not even occult anymore.

It is a full-blown mother-fuckin' religion. Maybe that's another way of putting it. Pre-midnight, spree-era-stor, swifties were more like, scientology level. Everybody knew about it, but not everybody was in it. Now it's fully Protestantism. It is everywhere. Don't cancel me, Swifties, it's just an analogy. I love you. I respect you. I'm fascinated by your culture. And I want to spend a few minutes unpacking.

How the cult of Taylor Swift has changed, in my opinion, over the past year. Now for those who maybe haven't listened to the original sounds like a cult, cult of Taylor Swift episode, I'm gonna re-air it this week because there have been a lot of requests to cover this cult recently. He was like, I don't get it. I'm rubber necking at it. I feel like I cannot question this cult because it's so powerful and Swifties are so devout if you even ask a respectful question like, hey, what's all the fuss about? You will be met with an extreme reaction.

And so this part two bonus is here, whether you are an unabashed Taylor Swift Stan, a proper swifty, whether you're a closet swifty, that's a term I've heard bubbling up in private conversations I've had with folks in the wild. Or whether you're absolutely sick of Taylor Swift and don't understand this cult whatsoever, hopefully these next 15 minutes will shed some light. I myself did not go to the Ares tour, but I did have a friend of mine fly from New York, to Los Angeles for 48 hours,

and spend $2,000 she didn't really have to attend the IP. She did procure me one of those coveted, dark blue sweatshirts at the merch table. And I like it and feel represented by it because it's very subtle Taylor merch. It doesn't have her face on it, it has Taylor Swift written in very, very soft matte black letters on the front.

It's a sort of, if you know, you know, peace of merch, which means that outsiders or haters won't necessarily clock it as Taylor Swift merch, but insiders will, and I like co-zying up to proper Swifties because I like to be able to softly interrogate them about their fanaticism because not all Swifties are created equal. They all have their slightly different denominations,

level of extremism, and I like learning about what Taylor Swift means to them. While I did not attend the Aristotle for myself, I did watch the full concert on YouTube and the most curious part about the concert to me was how very very different the energy was on stage versus off stage. Off stage, Swifties are going absolutely ape shit. They're like whipping their bodies around, turning looks to the gods, whether they're dressed up as a full-blown Christmas tree, as a nod to the fact that Taylor grew up on a Christmas tree farm, to speak now,

era, purple, halter dress. There is a whole sort of like, Lord of the Rings-esque universe to pull from when it comes to the aesthetic, the rituals, and watching Swifties in the audience truly gives me the same feeling as when I watch videos of Pentecostals speaking in tongues. And what's going on physiologically is the same. There is this dissociative aspect when you get lost in a religious group language ritual like that. It puts you in a state of escape,

in a state of transcendence, and in a really vulnerable state, where a leader could potentially have great influence on you. Then I look at Taylor Swift on stage, and she is cool as a mother fucking cucumber. She does not miss a beat, down to these sort of bestie moments where she's addressing the audience

in her very casual charming girl next door. I know you girl type of way. It's perfected. It is flawless. In a way that feels robotic, but the followers do not care. They are in the presence of their exalted queen. They're all engaging in this collective ritual and it makes people go fucking bonkers. So that juxtaposition of someone sober as a judge on stage, having this command over followers who are losing their shit, I mean, it's the secular evangelical tent revival of 2023. So speaking of that juxtaposition of energies, I kind of want to lead by quoting a New Yorker journalist named Amanda Patrusik, who attended the Ares tour and wrote a review of it that

I really admired because it provided outsiders or even haters a window into what this event means to attendees, but it was also really generous, it wasn't snarky at all, and I want to read a couple quotes from it. So Patrusik's review says, from afar, Swift's fans possessiveness appears both mighty and frightening. Still, the intensity of her fandom manifests so differently offline. Swift's performance might be fixed, perfect, but what happens in the crowd is messy, wild, benevolent, and beautiful. Swift's fandom is tied to the primal urge to have something to protect and be protected

by. In recent years, community, one of our most elemental human pleasures, has been decimated by COVID, politics, technology, capitalism. These days, people will take it where they can get it. Swift often sings about alienation and yearning. She has written many songs that describe her devotion as punishment to be endured. She believes that the force of her affection will push people away, but her fans have remained. They have buoyed her. In turn, she has given them everything. I love those lines. And what Amanda Patrusik is really speaking about there is that like Swift sings so much in her lyrics about feeling rejected, especially by romantic partners in her life.

Like a partner's love is conditional or only there for a weekend. But her fans love is relentless. They wouldn't leave her no matter what she does, and that creates a kind of parasocial codependency between Taylor and her swifties that I think is felt on both sides. What the Aristotle really showed us is that Taylor Swift has built an incredibly robust religious world that provides not just one aesthetic and set of traditions, but a collection of them. So there's now an energy, a uniform, a set of sacred texts for anyone, no matter what you're going through in your life, and by anyone I mean mostly an audience of young

women whose emotions have been historically belittled, dismissed, and are now validated in this explosively meaningful way by a woman who's kind of taken over the fucking world. She also provides them a space-weather online or in-person, and of course, when you connect in-person, that's a whole different kettle of fish. And in those massive stadiums, followers can develop their own set of community rituals, like the Exchange of Friendship bracelets at her concerts, or dancing in a mid-Somar-esque circle, all wearing the same outfits, like Swifties were captured doing in the movie theaters during the showings of her era's tour film. And the role of Taylor Swift, as a quote-unquote cult leader,

is partially that of a deity, people definitely worship her on the role of Taylor Swift as a quote unquote cult leader is partially that of a deity, people definitely worship her on the level of God. But I think it's actually more influential and more profound than a deity because she has mastered the art of making the parasocial, one-sided plural you feel like the singular you. She interacts with her fans just enough but not too much She's not like a god who you pray to but doesn't directly answer you actually can go see her in person and as Perfect and literally staged as she is she does sometimes actually listen to her fans prayers like the demands from Swifties that she may cruel summer a single. Her energy is like bestie meets nurturing parent figure,

meets prophet style savior, meets of course musical entertainer and music has such a profound physiological effect on her bodies and minds. I mean, if that isn't cult charisma, I don't know what is. And because she's become so good at passing off money-making endeavors as like angelic little tokens of generosity for her loyalist fans, she's able to turn every ritualistic moment that comes to pass into a merchandising opportunity, whether it's releasing a film of her concert or collector's edition vinyl covers. But what's fascinating also about Taylor Swift is that unlike certain co-leaders whose charisma is like really really specific and

their style of delivery is so sort of like peculiar and eccentric that it's not for everyone. Taylor Swift is kind of neutral enough that fans can project whatever they want onto her, and actually think that that's the most underrated part of her appeal. One of the reasons why I love talking to individual Swifties is that there is such a range of fans from those so-called closet Swifties to full-blown fanatical gailers. That's one of her sort of more like conspiratorial fan sects who are absolutely convinced that Taylor Swift is queer and constantly dropping hints proving that the way that, you know, legit conspiracy theorists are always interpreting random events

as proof of their convictions that some dark evil elite is secretly controlling the sociopolitical order. It's kind of like a soft pastelly version of that mentality. And the way that you engage with Taylor Swift has so much to do with your own individual identity. I love learning like when did any individual swifty fall in love with her music. Was it all the way back with her original country albums? Was it not until 1989, not until folklore in the pandemic? What's the wildest thing they'd potentially do in defense of their idol? What's the wildest thing that they have done? Have they had relationships damaged by getting into fights over Taylor Swift? Recently at a birthday party, I met a

tailor in person, which is a sub-sector of Gailer that specifically thinks that Taylor Swift and her friend Carly Klaus were at some point in a romantic relationship. And I asked her, like, is there anything that could convince you that this theory about Taylor Swift is not true. And this person who seemed like an otherwise pretty reasonable individual I'd never met her before, but you know, she was at this normal birthday party having normal conversations. She bold-based admitted, nothing could prove to me that I'm wrong about this unless Taylor Swift showed up here and told me herself.

It was like shockingly delusional, and it's not a big deal or anything because the conspiracy theory on the table here and the characters that we're talking about are not like religious extremists, political extremists, it's Taylor Swift, it's low stakes, but the cultish belief behind it is very similar, even if the aesthetic and the cinematic universe, so to speak, is not.

I've been looking into irrational belief for the past two years because of my new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking, and I understand that this swifty was in large part motivated by confirmation bias. She had decided on a conclusion, anything could be construed as an argument supporting that conclusion. And one of the reasons why no proof could matter to her is because this caler lore is a belief that makes her feel seen. It makes her feel less alone.

It's that thing that Amanda Patrusik said in her review, engaging in this belief makes her feel protective of Taylor Swift and also protected by Taylor Swift. And I don't think Taylor ever would come forward and dispel the belief because she doesn't want to do anything to disturb whatever gives people that feeling. In part, because I think it would mean she'd be losing a fan. Obviously, as audience members,

we can't ever know Taylor Swift's true self, whatever that even means. No matter how much the public, you know, attempts to dig and speculate about her private life, who can really know, but I do want to present a second-hand data point that might provide some food for thought. I have a friend who used to be an entertainment journalist like 10-15 years ago, and right at the very, very beginning of Taylor Swift's career, my friend went on tour with her for a very short period of time in order to write an entertainment cover story about her. This friend of mine is queer, non-binary, could potentially have a lot of validation to gain from Taylor Swift being queer.

And so I asked like, do you think Taylor Swift is gay? My friend said from what I observed, absolutely the fuck not. Figger warning for any Swifties who like don't want to hear, even the mildest form of criticism from someone who spent a little bit of time with her. Actually, this isn't even criticism. It's just that what my friend said is that Taylor Swift was extremely people pleasing and vanilla. Her favorite food at the time was literally vanilla ice cream.

And that's not a negative judgment necessarily because I was thinking, some people think of vanilla as plain. But vanilla as a flavor isn't actually plain, it is a flavor. In fact, it's a flavor that everybody likes because you can either just have it be sort of mild and delicious or you could add a million toppings on it, whatever you want, cookie crumbles, rainbow sprinkles, whatever. And this, I think, is the ultimate collider quality, which I think Taylor Swift actually comes by pretty honestly. It's that ability to make everybody feel like she is speaking uniquely to them that no matter who you are, she is your flavor. She wants her fans to feel loved and for them to love her, she's a chameleon, a shape-shifter, a mirror, with just enough flavor that doesn't feel dishonest or creepy.

She has to stay vanilla to maintain her power. She can't get too political even when certain fans want her to. Which I actually personally think is probably good, because think about when celebrities stray too far outside their lane in politics. She can get colting on a whole nother level. Taylor Swift stays in her lane. She just like is driving a monster truck through it. Again, a lot of artists are too specific, but not Taylor Swift. She's the exact leader each of her fans wants her to be. At least that's how she appears.

And that's why her stand-em's dynamics can turn a zealous and religious as crusaders, because a threat to any single Taylor Swift song or belief or behavior is a threat to their identity. As you might be able to tell, I have been thinking a lot about this stuff Taylor Swift's song or belief or behavior is a threat to their identity. As you might be able to tell, I have been thinking a lot about this stuff because the first chapter in my new book is called Are You My Mother Taylor Swift, a note on the Halo Effect, which is a cognitive bias that plays a significant role in the sort of cycles of celebrity worship

and dethronement that we see in our culture right now. It's truly one of my favorite chapters. It talks not only about how we worship celebrities and then knock them off their pedestal as soon as they quote unquote, betray us, but also how those tendencies connect to our relationships to our own parents. This chapter is like analytical and pop culture, but it's also deeply personal. I talk about my relationship to my own mother in it. So no matter where on the celebrity stands, spectrum you fall, I think that the book

might appeal to anyone listening to this episode. These culty, voracious stand dynamics are just endlessly fascinating to me, and I do feel like I was able to express them best in that chapter. So anyway, I just wanted to tell you about it. The book is called The Age of Magical Overthinking and it doesn't come out till April 9th, but it's available for pre-order now. Anywho, I hope you enjoyed this little updated analysis. Thank you so much for listening.

And now I am gonna be re-airing our classic now year-old episode. I cannot believe it's only been a year, on the Cult of Taylor Swift. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ The views expressed in this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable,

this podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Hi, I'm Ashley from SoCal, and I think the cool thing about Taylor Swift is how she hides clues, references, and puzzles in her post-N social media, and how her fans immediately scrambled to try and figure out what her next album is going to be. Hi, my name is Nicole and I am from Chicago. Her fans are unable to admit that sometimes she is in the wrong and I think that her fans are constantly wanting to victimize her and view her as an underdog instead of someone who's already won the game 10 times over. Hi, I'm Lila and I'm calling from California. I think the cultiest thing about Taylor Swift

is how carefully curated her images, and how her brand changes so drastically, depending on what quote unquote era she's in. You know, you see snake emojis and dark lipstick and think reputation, pink and butterflies are lover, cardicants and forests are folklore, and fans play into these aesthetics too. So with every new album,

you have people totally revamping their Instagram feeds. It's like cultiness squared, because you have the cultiness of categorizing yourself into niche aesthetics on social media, and then the cultiness of having that brand be dictated by a celebrity. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina and I'm a comedian. I'm Amanda Montel, author of the book Cultish the Language of Finaticism. Every week on our show, we discuss a different zeitgeisty group that puts the cult in culture from crypto to the skincare industry.

To try and answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult, but is it really? I can safely say I have never been more intimidated to cover a topic than the Cult of Taylor Swift. No, I completely agree. I think this one's scared. I mean, even just mentioning Taylor Swift in our episode, the Cult of Celebrity Stands. Season one. Season one was scary. But I do feel at the end of the day, since I am a low-key Swiftie, we are gonna be providing a full 360 analysis of the situatio. I have at times not identified as full-blown swifty, but have like really connected with her music, like when I was 20 years old and living in Brooklyn

during the fall time, that's when I was really pounding red, the original red release. And I really identified with it then, but that's the thing about Taylor Swift fundamentalismism is that I often feel like you're not allowed to be a casual Taylor Swift listener. That's so true. I like that you called it fundamentalism. Because at the end of the day, I mean all of her songs and all of her albums are just so relatable. I mean, they're either about being a certain age, falling in love, getting your heart broken. Those are all things that we can relate to.

And if we can't relate to them, we make up scenarios, thinking that we're in love. And then we listen to music and romanticize our life. That's what I didn't in high school. I like never had a high school relationship, but I suppose listening to Fearless was sort of my first introduction to what being young and in love felt like.

Oh, for sure. I mean, the first time I like really, really listened to Taylor Swift was after I broke up with my freshman year boyfriend, LOL gay. And I listened to the song back to December as if like he had broken my heart. I ultimately did break up with him because I didn't want to be with him, but he was hot and cool and then went on to date another hot cool girl. So I was like, still salty about the whole situation. My only serious romantic Tristan high school is also with the gay man.

Wait, no, that one wasn't gay. Oh, the gay guy I dated was my college boyfriend. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I lost my virginity too. Yeah, I lost my virginity too. A gay guy. I always say I should have known he was gay because every time I asked him to go down on me, he was like, yes, queen.

The high school one was straight and we only did like hand stuff. And his basement. You're so right, Taylor Swift is a populist cult leader queen. She's able to appeal to the lowest common denominator of basic and as our cult of weddings guest, Geatolentino, stuutely put it,

it feels so good to be basic. It does. Much like Disney adults, Taylor Swift is actually the perfect sounds like a cult topic because on the surface, it seems really low stakes and really innocent. She's just a pop star who's worshiped by all these sort of,

twey young women, but underneath the surface, it gets incredibly fanatical, incredibly culty, and a way that sometimes sends a shock through my system, the way that I will sometimes watch like next-eam documentaries and Jonestown documentaries and be like, this is frightful. Yeah, for sure. And I think that's because a lot of Taylor Swift's fandom and cult following is in their feelings.

Taylor Swift gets them into her cult in a place where they're feeling very vulnerable in a place where they're feeling like they don't know what to do next and then they listen to Taylor's music and they're like, you helped me get through the darkest moments of my life. And now I owe you my life. The way that you describe that is absolutely accurate

and is utterly symmetrical with the way that people have spoken about Keith Ronieri when they first got involved with Nexium, Heaven's Gate when they first got involved with Marshall, Apple, White, and Bonnie, Nettles, the founder of that cult. The stakes for the cult of Taylor Swift and Swift are obviously much lower and the consequences are different,

but the fanaticism is the same. That makes sense, that's happened to me. I have to check myself because I can become such an obsessive fan that that's why I really am not a 100% cult fan of anything because the tides could turn and it could become my whole life. So even when Taylor's version of Red came out and All Too Well came out, I was kind of going through a little something myself and I listened to All Too Well so much. It helped me get through that. And then I started going on YouTube and watching videos of her and watching all of her fandom overanalyze every move she made. I was like, I need to step it back and check myself being a host of this podcast.

You can notice when you're starting to trip and fall too deeply into a cult. But I think what you're getting at is the fanaticism of Taylor Swift's fandom, which parallels the fanaticism of so many destructive cults, is really motivated by us as humans not wanting to feel alone. And Taylor Swift really helps people feel like they are a part of something larger than themselves and that they're not the only person going through something. But it's so funny because like, I don't even get a toe in the door in Coltie communities.

I have been conditioned to be so skeptical and so cynical. And when I watch YouTube videos of hardcore Swifties reacting to her album drops, for example, and I'm so horrified and I'm rubber necking and I'm treating it like true crime, part of me thinks like maybe I'm so horrified because a fraction of me is jealous of her or of her fandom,

because it feels so good to just Surrender to a group like that. Yeah, and we tend to be hyper critical of groups that remind us of ourselves So much in the way that people who are the most homophobic are people who might feel a little bit gay themselves like the people who are the most critical of Disney adults are jealous of people who are that willing to indulge in something a little cringe. And I think like there is a basic white girl cult follower deep down inside of me and that's what makes me afraid of her family.

Oh for sure. I mean, you are literally a girl who has a romantic life. So there's a little bit of that in all of us. Yeah. Wearing pink puffy sleeves and who loves cats. Yeah. And I think the best way to treat that little draw and pull that you have is to go to concert.

I've never been to a Taylor Swift concert, but I have been to a bad bunny concert. I recently went and I will not shut up about it. It was like something took over me, and after I left the concert, I just felt so cathartic. It was just something that I needed to get out of my system in a stadium full of Latinos. There are bands that I love and I don't become obsessed with them from like a Coltie fanatic perspective,

but I do track why they'll be in the city that I'm in. And I'll go to the concert and in that two hours, I will let go of everything, my ego, and just like be in the moment and surrender to the music. I relate so much to that. One of the happiest experiences I've had in recent memory was microdosing on mushrooms at the Silvan S.O. concert at the Greek. I have never been so present. Like it feels transcendent. I literally said after I left that show, I was like, I feel like Silvan S.O. was holding me. I wrote my college essay about going to a concert. It was like, what was the most transcending experience?

And I was like, passion pit, the year was 2014. That's legit. Yeah. So before we get into it, we just want to give a little disclaimer. The Cult of Taylor Swift is so complex, there's no way we could cover all of it here. I mean, there's her persona, the Cult of her personality, and then there's her whole flock of hardcore Swifties. And then within that fan cult cult there are different denominations and

irrational beliefs and conspiracy theories that people dedicate hours and hours to unpacking and defending. For example, there are a whole subgroups of her fandom called Caillers and Gaillers who are constantly sharing clues pointing to Taylor Swift being queer, and we don't have time to dig into all of the weeds of that. So we just want to warn y'all that we might need to do a part two of this episode because as we were saying, even though Taylor Swift is just a pop star, we could low-key describe the whole story of heaven's

gate in an hour more easily than the cult of Taylor. Also because the heaven's gate members are dead and won't come for us. Yeah, exactly. That's one aspect that is less scary. There are parts of the Taylor Swift cult that she leans into intentionally. Obviously, it's been so amazing for her career that people's love for her goes way beyond music and I think that's because she's been around for just so long. We grew up with her and it's

a whole aesthetic and identity that comes with rituals, like hunting for Easter egg clues about future songs, which she puts in her posts and hierarchies, like being blessed to come to one of her private listening parties. I mean, there's even a Starbucks drink. And there's also uniform. We can all kind of recognize, like chunky sweaters and side braids and heart-shaped sunglasses and cups of tea and cats. I was actually gonna say that if you were in the Cult of Taylor Swift, it's mostly that, like, you're obsessed with cats.

Yeah. The same way that she is. I love cats. I love red lipstick, it's giving Christian modesty blogger vibes. That is exactly it. Yeah. And this is such a genius marketing technique

because it comes back to that idea of the identity template that we touch on all the time, where in this particular time in history, when there's at least the illusion of so many options for who to be and what to think. It just feels so comforting to have this guiding light. Like, I'm a swifty, and this is how swiftees act. And other swiftees are my tribe,

and followers can become dependent on that identity to feel whole, which is I think part of why they're so protective of it. Of course, you want to not have a million options and just follow your leader. I don't even know what deodorant to use these days, you know? But her fans really do worship her as this enlightened leader. If you combine the most popular girl in school

with your best friend, Anamithical Goddess, that's how people feel about her and her songs. There's also like this elitism where if you don't get her songs or if you don't think they're good that there's clearly something profoundly wrong with you, I felt that way about when people didn't like the movie everything every all at once. I was like, you just don't get it. I felt that way about when people didn't like the movie everything everywhere all at once.

I was like, you just don't get it. I feel that way about that movie too. I'm in the cult of that movie. Yeah, me too. And bagels. Everything bagel. The everything bagel. It all comes back to it.

It always goes back to bagels or bad bunny. For me, it really always just goes back to bad bunny. But watching videos of Swifties analyzing her lyrics is fascinating because it feels like Bible study. People are over-analyzing it, trying to figure out what their God's real message might have been, and I feel like her lyrics, like the Bible to Christians or Disney movies to Disney adults, are like a scripture by which they live their lives. They're just next level inspiring because they relate to our love lives. And it's like, do I think Taylor Swift's music is good? Some of it? Yes, absolutely.

And it should be okay only to like some of it, or not at all. Do I think even her best songs are worthy of some of this fanaticism for me know, but I also know that it's not just about the music, it's about that feeling of being part of this passionate community that's so much bigger than yourself. And that's possibly the most transcendent experience emotionally that a human can have beyond falling in love with one other person because you're literally in a giant group of people who are all bonding over the feeling of being in love with the same person. And that comes with jealousy and competition for attention like who's the best cult member, who's the best swifty? But those feelings will still always come second to the much bigger and more spiritual calling to unite over this one brilliant, all-knowing figure.

Yeah, the difference, though, is that Charles Manson, new wall has followers personally, and Taylor Swift doesn't know any of these people personally. Although she does claim to lurk the internet for what everyone is saying, that is part of her genius, is that she's so good at making

everyone of her followers feel like she does know them. I actually hear from Baltimore, Maryland. I think the call to these things about Taylor Swift are her stand-ends. Literally if you say anything against her, you might as well just cancel yourself coming in and that, because they're just gonna do it for you. Hi, I'm a Viva calling from Melbourne. The Stan's worship at her feet, and they will buy all eight versions of folklore,

spend every waking hour theorizing about her next move, and they will dogpile on anyone who dares to criticize her. And she will encourage it by sending gifts or inviting fans to her house, so everyone gets even more frenzied and desperate because of that tiny chance that she'll notice them. My name is Amy, I live in Northern Virginia and I am a hardcore swifty. You'll often hear the joke like our Lord and Savior Taylor, Alice and Swift, worshiping at the altar of Taylor Swift during the Church of Taylor Swift. I'm totally guilty of this because I think it's funny because I'm like a

heathen, but the dayification is definitely culty. So let's get some background on Taylor Swift. Who is she? Where did she come from? Pennsylvania, we talked about this. There's a really alien place. Yeah, yeah. Crop circles, crop circles, the homage. Taylor Swift was famously born in 1989 after a group of aliens dropped her into Pennsylvania on just kidding, but she was born there

and she has this America sweetheart persona. She places a lot of emphasis on her family and her wholesome origins, but she doesn't mention Pennsylvania a lot because when she was young, as soon as she decided she wanted to pursue music, her family was like, okay, girlie, let's do it. And they moved the whole family to Nashville. They helped her pursue music, which clearly a good investment on their part because look how it turned out.

Seriously, people often forget that she's from Pennsylvania and not Nashville because I think it's better for her relatable persona and her rags to riches narrative to let people believe that she's from the south. for her relatable persona and her rags, her rich is narrative to let people believe that she's from the south. So she signed her record deal so young in 2004 at 14 years old and released her debut album two years later at 16 years old. She received her first top 40 hit, Tim McGraw.

We all know that song, we love that song. Off that album and she released her first number one album, Fearless in 2008, which was, may I add, a peak point in all of our youths. Seriously, the economy was crashing, hope was lost, and there was Taylor Swift, there to pick up the pieces. When I broke up with my boyfriend, because I didn't like him fingering me.

Sorry. It went too much. No, it did feel bad back then. I remember my first fingering. I wasn't like what? No, no. Is this what it's supposed to be like? No, I remember it hurt, but I was like,

I have to just rip off the bandaid. It felt like I, like someone was putting a tampon in me when I was like not on my period. Completely, oh my God. I'll never forget, I was just lying there being like, I can't be 16 years old and have never been fingered. I'm safe, and then once I did it, I was like, all right, off the track list.

I know I was like, they never again. I feel like that's how everyone feels about losing their virginity. It's like not fun, but you gotta do it at some point. I know, I should be fun, or it should be at least like, not fun for both parties. Yes. If I don't come neither do you.

Exactly. You could almost argue that she was pulling cult leader style antics with her family at a young age because she was able to convince them to make that move to Nashville for her career. And they had the money and the resources to do that. So this sort of implicit narrative that she's the small town innocent country girl

who came from nothing and struck it big on talent and luck alone is like not quite it. She wants to relate to the masses. So of course, it's just very smart. It's brilliant. And I think the fact that she got started really young combined with her very clever, populous, relatable songwriting instincts and her work ethic because you can't knock it. She has a really impressive work ethic. Add all that to the music industry's conditioning,

turn to her very quickly into this teen sensation with this mass, mass appeal. Since then, she's won 11 Grammys. She's had 42 nominations. She's the first and only woman solo artist to win the Grammy for Best Album of the Year, three times for her solo recordings. And now, she has over 225 million Instagram followers and could be considered one of the most famous people in modern history. Now that she's become this super famous person and she could not work a day in her life for the rest of her life and continue to have the fandom that she does. The fact that she's re-recording her albums just for her own sake of owning them, I think really shows... Don't you're looking at me like I'm in love with her? I'm just saying. You know what that says to me, is that Taylor Swift's number one most passionate, fanatical, swifty follower is Taylor Swift.

She's her own biggest fan, but I also think she's a workaholic. Honestly, the way that I see it is that's really admirable from my capitalist perspective. From a man who runs a business, I just feel like she never gets praised for business woman thing. For girl-bossing so close to the sun right now. When you give the caveat that she grew up rich,

it's easy to discredit all the hard work that's also running to you. But it is super duper impressive and she's still working super hard and we're going to talk about it. But is that a good thing or is that a bad thing? How has that affected her and or the people who she influences mental health? Once you have it all and you have everything,

you're still working as hard as possible to get more. And that's the most capitalist thing you could ever do. It's the cultiest thing you could ever do. It's when a certain benchmark of power and Taylor Swift has a lot of it, is still not enough. But Taylor Swift's influence is so much culture than just music industry domination. And we partially mean that as a compliment,

because as we know, here it sounds like a cult, not everything culty is bad. But Amanda, how did she build that cult leader persona? Taylor Swift is a master of turning the narrative. I don't know if you've heard, but America is ruled by patriarchy. What? Just America alone?

Oh, wait, no, that's a good point, because Taylor Swift is world famous. And much of the world is world by patriarchy. As soon as Taylor Swift got really famous, she quickly turned into someone that the media and general pop culture loved hate. So she's often served as a target for a lot of society's general misogyny

because she's not exactly cool or sexy in the male gazing way that the Kardashians are, for example. She's this sort of quirky, adorcable, sensitive, oversharer, and people have infamously critiqued her for that and have roasted her dating life in ways that felt sexist. There was the whole Kanye feud, of course, but she very quickly turns the narrative to position herself in the face of all of that sexist criticism as this inspiring female empowerment icon,

which really worked because people love a good versus evil story, especially amongst celebrities. And I think this kind of highlights her culture being very southern to be this quaint, nice woman who never says anything mean herself, but gets other people to fight her battles for her. It goes back and forth at times where she was wrong and she shouldn't have, and also she put on these flashing lights

of like, help me help me. I'm this week woman who needs help, and it's like, you are now an adult, and you can speak for yourself, but she was a child for most of her fame, and her company was controlled by adults around her. So even though she was this rich, powerful person, She was a child for most of her fame, and her company was controlled by adults around her. So even though she was this rich, powerful person, she wasn't able to control her narrative

until a lot more recently. That's an interesting point, like how much of her public narrative was she able to drive herself, having been a minor for the beginning years of her stardom, but she definitely does flatten narratives into these good evil binaries. For sure. She certainly positions herself as a feminist idol, but it's ultimately a pretty shallow, white feminist message. A lot of the time that doesn't always feel genuine

or inclusive, I mean, we can't forget casual, culturally appropriate of music videos, like shake it off. There was that public feud with Nicki Minaj. And let's certainly not forget that her squad, which was high-key endorsing mean girl clickiness, had this very conformist uniform look of all tall, white, normatively gorgeous women, which, to Taylor and her fan base,

was kind of the symbol of white feminists sticking together. And it really feels like there's sort of this exclusivity around her cool that if you don't look a certain way and if you don't think a certain way and if you weren't raised a certain way, then you might not even be allowed to join. It's not hospitable for all women in the way that she makes it seem. Yeah. And yet, it's scary to express criticism like this of Taylor Swift, not because of how she'll retaliate,

but because of how her stands will retaliate. Yeah, and the stands are strong. I mean, when you have 225 million followers on Instagram, even if just 5% of those followers are stands to the death, that's thousands and thousands of people. Yes, please be gentle with us. I actually know that there is like a good, significant overlap between swiftees

and people who read my work. Again, I'm just like teetering up against this swifty culture, even just like the colors you use on the covers of your house. I mean, if the dress you're wearing now, I wore this like, we asked Puffy sleeve Pankass dress on purpose for the theme, but that just goes to show how conformity can happen so quickly.

I'm wearing this ironically, but it's like, is it ironic? No. I don't know. I already owned this. You also do famously wear red lipstick all the time, which is a very Taylor Swift thing. I am, I am interested in clever marketing. And she is very interested in clever marketing, whether or not she's willing to admit it. Yeah.

And I guess just like a mid-episode disclaimer, we are tearing this apart and looking into all the aspects of Taylor Swift But when we analyze someone that doesn't inherently make them a bad person You know she's just a pop star with so much influence that to not look into it would be a disservice It would be irresponsible It would be us as the hosts of sounds like a cult because there's no Content on her on the internet. What's up with her? Would you ever learn about her? Actually, speaking of all of the conspiratorialism surrounding

Taylor Swift, there was once a tip that she might have been starting a book club. Think of something more innocent than a book club. And her swifties were ripping the internet to shreds, trying to look for clues about like which books Taylor Swift was choosing and it was so aggressive but the content itself was so innocent and that's the juxtaposition that makes the Taylor Swift fandom so spooky to me is that everyone's in pink lipstick and loving cats but they will go for the jugular if you come from their queen. Oh definitely and we'll

talk about that when we talk to our guest today. We'll have to experience that on a personal level. But as Coltia's Taylor Swift is herself, the Coltia's part of Taylor Swift is her following. The Swifties themselves, they just have such an extreme us versus that mentality. Swifties have been known to go on the attack whenever they perceive that their idol is not being treated properly.

Here are some examples. One that stood out to me in particular was in 2021 when she called out the Ginny and Georgia writers for making a joke about her and the Swifties immediately. Docks to the shows, reviews, and it tanked it on Netflix. She tweeted, Hey Ginny and Georgia, 2010 called and it wants its lazy, deeply sexist joke back.

How about we stop degrading hardworking women by defending this horse shit as funny? Also, at Netflix, after Miss Americana, this outfit doesn't look too cute on you. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I So light. Just the way that she tweeted that was just so passive aggressive. It was actively aggressive. She was trying to be like, L-O-L joke joke, but she was clearly mad about it.

So unwilling to take a joke. Like have a little humor about yourself. You have literally everything in the world. She's like, I'm just an innocent small town girl from Pennsylvania, and I'm just trying to empower women. It's like, take a joke, girlfriend. Like, we all can. I know, I feel bad every time we go hard on her,

I'm like, but girly invite me to your parties. I'm just gonna say it, it is true. Unfortunately, Taylor Swift cannot take a joke. And she even talks about not being able to take the joke. I think she thinks she can take a joke. I famously have not been able to take a joke as a kid and then I was like, oh, I'll just become a comedian. I can get in front of it, and then I can take a joke

and roast people back. The thing with taking jokes is that when people roast you, you don't say, hey, I didn't do that, you roast them back. Yeah. But since she's not roasting, she's defending the roast. And it is very unfunny to be this aggro in the face of a little tiny joke that was made about you. Yeah, when she tweets about something

and all her fans go after that something to defend her, it is dogmatic idol worship. It's this responsibility that her followers or her Swifties feel to go extreme lengths for the sake of defending their idol. Yes, they are so overprotective. There's so many examples of this. There was a pitchfork writer who gave her album Fol and 8 out of 10 instead of 10 out of 10,

and her followers literally docks that person, revealed their name and their personal details. It was scary. They're just a freaking little internet writer. One fan told L.com that Taylor Swift feels like a childhood friend to her. She said, I just feel this motherly instinct to stand up for her because she can't possibly defend herself in every situation. When you are at that level of fame and money, you don't need to defend yourself

because you are making money off of all of those comments. You are making money off of that hate as well. And that's why if you wanna have this job, you need to be able to compartmentalize and disassociate. She doesn't need people defending her, and she also doesn't need to be defending herself at all hours of the day. No, and I'll say this to you.

The impulse to wanna defend yourself against senseless internet hate. No one is above that. I have friends who've been through being diagnosed with chronic illnesses, like having family members die, and even they are not immune to strangers on the internet being mean to them. Like that sucks even if your Taylor Swift, but her Swifties will

even defend her against completely valid, intelligently stated criticism. Like I remember when the whole private jet thing happened. If you didn't know, there is this website that tracks most celebrities like private jet usage and how much CO2 they're putting out into the world and it's pretty much just highlighting how like the richest people in the world are at fault for global warming and like us as individuals using a shitty fucking paper straw. Yeah. And drinking paper is not going to help the world, but these billionaires taking massive

steps is Taylor Swift got called out for taking like four, five minute jet rides. So like starting a plane and taking a five minute private jet ride from like one town to another is horrible for the environment and her Swifties still defended her. And I remember her team came out and defended that she was like lending her jet out to other people so she wasn't taking all of those rides

and it's still her jet. Hello all at enrich people letting each other borrow each other's plane. Regular people, we borrow each other's clothes, but can you imagine being so powerful and rich that every time you let a belonging to a friend, carbon dioxide rained from the sky and you you just didn't notice or didn't care? I did think it was interesting how the private jet, Hullabaloo, did seem to afford certain swiftees, this permission structure to come out and admit that she's kind of a problematic fave. Some people sent me a few tiktoks of swiftees, like kind of roasting her a little bit. It's like, finally, we're allowed to critique her a teeny tiny little bit. I'm researching

irrationality a bunch for the book that I'm currently writing, and I learned that when a celebrity commits any kind of infraction, their fiercest loyalists will be flooded with cognitive dissonance that feels so uncomfortable that they immediately get defensive, and the worst the infraction is, the worst their cognitive dissonance will be, and the more defensive in zealous this stands will get in order to psychologically overcome that. That makes sense to me. The only example I think on a personal level is, you know, the classic scene where like,

new family moves to a new town, and then one of the siblings gets bullied at school, and then the sibling is like, oh hell no, I can bully my little brother, but you can't. It's like, I'm allowed to critique this person because I'm a part of their family. But you get your hands off my sibling. Totally, and it's like, I'm allowed to critique this person because I'm a part of their family. But you get your hands off my sibling. Totally. And it's like we said before.

This stan in the L.com article says she has a motherly instinct toward Taylor. So, but it's like, you are not a part of that girl's family and you are not her mother. The meaning that it holds to Taylor Swift versus the meaning that it holds to the person defending her to the death are way different. Like there's to be like,

oh, that's nice, someone defended to be. And this girl will have spent weeks, days, commenting, chatting with a person that that's nothing to do with them on a personal level. That is such a good point. It's a culty red flag to become separated and isolated from your loved ones and your family because you're dedicating so much time to this group.

And some of the cultiest things that Swifties do is that they'll track her every movement, including physical movements in addition to business and music moves. A woman running one of the biggest fan pages told the Guardian that she knew where Taylor Swift was, 80% of the time. That's not healthy for the person running the fan page and for Taylor Swift. She stated many times that she no longer says what city she's living in because it's really dangerous

for her for fans to know that. People have like broken into her homes. And that's the scary part is that the fandom is now, you know, snowballed into its own monster. Absolutely, almost uncontrollable. Taylor interacts with her fans through like secret codes and specialized language, but they sometimes take it way too far.

Some parts of the Swiftie fandom are so disconnected from reality that they'll project made up ideas onto her words and actions much in the same way, though not with the same consequences, that QAnonners project shit onto Trump. Like, they'll overanalyze the color of a sweater that she wore in one Instagram post and interpret that to mean that she secretly gay.

It just goes to show that the fandom really has spiraled way far away from her. People have created entire careers out of their obsession. There's this woman named Lauren Lipman. She made a YouTube video decoding the hidden messages and the look what you made me do music video. And subsequently, she turned that into a whole career. And there are secret codes that the stand-um has invented

themselves in order to feel both bonded together and superior to everyone who doesn't understand the lingo. The snake emoji is an important symbol for the fan base. They use it both to show support for Taylor and to troll outsiders like snake emoji, snake emoji, snake emoji, snake emoji. Yeah, there was a time when Kanye tweeted a picture of a snake and everyone was like, oh, he's calling Taylor's whiffed out. And she does release Easter eggs hidden clues in her pose. So it's kind of this catch 22 of you have all the power you have because of these inconveniences that you live through.

Even within the Swifties, there's this in group and out group. There are some fans that are invited to secret listening sessions and those that are not involved get super mad. And I mean, I don't even know how that happens. It's almost like a secret society. How do you get invited to those listening sessions?

It's funny that you ask that because we looked into it and there are these unspoken rules for ascending to the highest level of swifty in order to be recognized by her team. You have to tag at Taylor Nation 13 and at Tree Pain. That's her publicist on all of your social media posts. And then and only then will you have the chance to earn special swifty privileges like DMs from her team

and Christmas presents and invites to these private listening sessions called her secret sessions. So there are these sort of unspoken codes. It reminds me of when influencers are like, comment on this post and tag three friends and I'll give you a free Tesla. I've done that. I've sent it to you.

I'm like, give me that Tesla. We love exclusivity, especially as Americans. Yeah, and I also think we love free things as well. So like if her team is offering to send you Christmas presents, it's like, why not? Also, what's the cost of following an account and commenting on things when you remember to? Well, that's how it starts. And then slowly you get inducted more and more and more

into the forums and the groups and the culture and lo and behold, now two years later, you've tripped and fallen down a rabbit hole into absolute fanatical conspiracy theory, swifty culture. Yeah, I mean, speaking of conspiracy theories, we mentioned it this a little bit about the galaers and the calers, but I do think that they're

fact that there are some of her fans that go as far as genuinely thinking that Taylor Swift has been bisexual this whole time and has been gay and has been hiding it. Just goes to show how like, almost, and I'm sorry to use this word, but like, delusional people can get that they remove themselves from reality. Like this woman is in a serious relationship with an actor.

Well, that's also like none of their business. What I really want to know is what is motivating these followers to want her so badly to be gay. That's a really good question. I don't know. Is it because we need more super super mainstream queer icons? I mean, it would be a win for the queer community if someone is famous in mainstream as Taylor Swift were gay. We're in this weird transition with queerness where it has become mainstream. So it's important for mainstream popular figures

to come out because it's still a win for the queer community. But sexuality and your sex life should still be private. So I also don't think people are required to come out. So there are a lot of artists nowadays that are like no comment. Like I'm not gonna come out because it's my personal life. Whether you're talking about a group as destructive and violent as QAnon or as innocent as Taylor Swift, when you're making up to use your word delusional conspiracy theories. It all goes back to our intense desire during times of social political turbulence

to want someone to represent us and lead us into a better future. I do believe that many, many swiftees have a sense of humor about it all. I think her sense of humor has grown a bit. Yeah. But that doesn't reflect all of her fans. You know, I think a lot of her fans

have a great sense of humor. I made a little Taylor Swift meme. I posted it on my Instagram a while ago where it said cults in the movies, cults in real life, and in the cults in the movie section, I posted a screen grab from mid-Samar, and the cults in real life section. I posted a photo of one of her secret sessions, and then in the caption, I was like, where are my Swifties? What's the cultiest thing you've ever done in service of your queen? And so many people were like delighted to roast themselves as cult followers.

People are proud of the wars that they've gone through. It's like a vet coming back from war and being like, I have a purple heart. Thank you. This is hyperbole. This is hyperbole. So up next, we're going to talk to author, director, and writer Jill Guttoitz.

She is a huge fan of Taylor Swift herself, but has written many articles on her and inevitably, you know, gotten into some trouble for it. Some swifty tips, so to speak. She is the author of the book, Girls Can Kiss Now. She writes about Taylor Swift in that book and is the director of the short film The Ladies. Here's Joe. Hi, my name is Anna Murphy. I'm from Atlanta, Georgia and certified Swiftie. I've actually

seen Taylor in concert nine times. And despite being a part of the cult, I think the cultiest thing about Taylor Swift and Swiftie's particularly recently has been the way that finding Easter eggs is invasive into not only Taylor's life but the lives of all other celebrities that she's friends with. Hi, I'm Roslyn from England. Universities increasingly have Taylor's trip societies. Through this I have made most of my friends. So everyone around me is Swifties. They're very happy to be part of that. And I've become a committee member, and I've encouraged a whole other group of people to make friends

exclusively, so really, with chances of a balance. This is Kendall calling from Chicago, Illinois, the way that they think that she is above critique for whatever reason. How anyone who calls her out is immediately dismissed and called a misogynist. Like, you can not like Taylor Swift, it's okay. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Jill, to start, could you introduce yourself to her list?

I'm Jill Godwitz. I'm an author allegedly. I wrote a book called Girls Can Kiss Now. That's a book of personal essays that are about my own life as it relates to pop culture, including Taylor Swift. Including, but not limited to. But if I had it my way,

probably would have been a book about Taylor Swift, yes. Hahaha. Hahaha. That's amazing. Do you consider yourself in the cult of Taylor Swift? I honestly feel like it was kind of a slow burn, which I think is maybe how cults work. 1989 is really the album where I,

even though I liked all the other ones, where I started to get kind of obsessed, and it was because I was going through break up emotional times. Of course, that's when it happens, feeling very vulnerable. After that, I was completely all in emotional times, of course that's when it happens, feeling very vulnerable. After that, I was completely all in and needed to participate in a getting the merch and talking about it every second on the liveway.

That's so true. Once you get merch, you're like in. Once you get the merch by purchasing it online, that's when you're really in. Because if you buy a shirt at a concert, you go to, yeah, that's just part of the energy of the event. But once you go to www.cultivetailerswift.com, I want a phone case. I was so swept up by the 1989 of it all

that I went to Target and bought this hard CD. It was like I was so involved that I needed to do it in person. It was too impersonal to just get a package delivered. All my 1989 memories are listening in CD in my car. It was already kind of a different time. In like the way I was listening and consuming and buying the merch. Yeah, that is much more intimate. A CD in a car. How old are you, Jill? Just for context, what years are we trafficking in? What ages are we trafficking in? I'm actually 13. I'm your like Taylor. You froze at the time when she became a human. No, I'm 30. Taylor's the sport that is the day before mine, but she

is two years older than me. That's the perfect age of a celebrity to worship because she's just like just ahead. Yeah, it's always been like a little aspirational. Obviously Taylor Swift has one of the most passionate fandoms out there. How would you describe the typical Taylor Swift cult member? Like what are they like? Why do you think they worship Taylor? Scary. I would describe them as scary. Now there's like different generations of them even but when I think of a Taylor Swift fan, like my mind goes to my age, like a millennial who like went to the speak now concert

and is entering their cringe era, there's so many factions of Swifties, and so many of them are now youths that are online and just have like a Taylor Swift avatar and are like basically identity lists online. Personality-wise, I think like Swift's skew obsessive in general. What do you think is the cultiest aspect of Taylor Swift, like, for better or for worse?

Speaking to my own experience, I get offended and genuinely defensive when people criticize her, because she has meant a lot to me at so many different times in my life. I do have a deeply parasocial relationship with Taylor Swift, and I do feel like she's so nice to me. I love she's been so kind to me like we have not met. Actually I did me a hard time. Oh I want to hear that, but it's so funny that you say that because I have gone down rabbit holes on YouTube, marathoning videos of Swifties reacting to her album drops.

It's truly like watching a Pentecostal speak in tongues. I cannot look away. It is madness. And they say things like, she didn't have to do this for us, but she did. Like, she is so kind. She is like our mother. She is our goddess. She could just be at home relaxing and she gave this to us. She doesn't know you. Yeah.

Tell us about the time you met her. My friend brought me backstage to meet her at the reputation tour, living in L.A. and working in media and whatever. I've met so many celebrities and I would say the majority of them are like not super warm or friendly. We were like the last people to talk to her before she had to be rushed away to go on stage. And so it was like she spent this last moment with us. I would say, I don't know, five minutes of a conversation. And I felt like even though I had no place being there, I was clearly just a fan. And she was talking to my friend about work things and the reason why he was there and whatever. She made such a point to justulate at me and look at me while she was talking as much

as when she was talking to him so that I felt involved in the like small three person conversation, which I think is just like such a small but human thing. And it was just such like a kind thing to do for a person who like clearly has no place being there and obviously feels weird to just make them feel included even though you don't have to. That's like charisma that what is she getting out of that one particular moment with one fan right before she goes on stage. I do think that this really kind warm, I'm going to stare directly into your eyes and make

you feel like this is the best day of your life. I do feel like that is part of your curated persona though. Like I think, you know, the way that you get a reputation and maintain a reputation is if you're consistent. Here I'm gonna be defensive again. My feeling is like I'm not saying it's not curated. In fact, I'm sure that it is, and if it is a form of manipulation,

the thing is that I don't care because do it made me feel so much more comfortable being there. So it's like even if it is not done with like pure intentions, I'm still like, thank you for doing that. Jill, have you ever had any scary or culty altercations with other swifties or have observed them? I say this in my book that I have an experience where the FBI knocked on my door one time because of something I tweeted and still after that, I felt more scared when the Swifties came for me because the FBI thing got cleared, as they say.

And I never heard about it again. The Swiftie thing still follows me around. What did you do during her last few album releases? I was like covering them doing the like uncovering Easter eggs and clues moment for Vulture and obviously being gay myself like what I wanted to investigate was the gay stuff, whether it was true or not. You started a revolution with that.

Yeah, and okay, no, your pieces for Vulture covering those albums were so funny. I'm not even as swifty and I voraciously consumed them because they were fucking hilarious. Thank you. Well, a lot of people got really mad that I called her boyfriend names that were, I think, funny. He is like, oatmeal, boy. It's just like so not mean. There are such worse things you can call a person than just saying their planned.

It was just like one of those like pylon stand moments where people went really crazy and it still follows me around. Do you think that like Taylor Swift endorses those kinds of like actions from her Swifties or like she knows she has like an army at her disposal that she can like use? But something that she like ever would endorse it.

And I think if something really sinister happened, she would of course speak out and be like, you guys. This is crazy. But I think that like she definitely knows that she has this army. Obviously she knows she has this cultish leader status. Like how do you think she exploits that status? I am not sure because I do think that she could like

push me pretty far morally. I don't think that she wields it for evil or would. I think that she is good. And I also like she's at a level now that she is so big that when you ask like what can she do with this, I'm kind of like, I don't know where she goes from here, you know? It's like she already has us. She has us so fucking hard to the point where she's re-releasing music of the same songs and we're

like, thank you goddess. What are some culty aspects of Swifties that someone on the outside of the cult might not even know about? Some Some really fringy random shit. So many Swifties have all of these unreleased Taylor Swift tracks that are deep buried on YouTube, or truly files that they've saved to their computers that I feel like those inner fan secrets or stuff like that. Taylor Swift has become a polarizing figure

over the last decade. And a lot of people consider it uncool to like her because she is. So like mainstream and like, Chugi, I don't know, are we calling her Chugi now? I don't know. I think that like she resonates with so many people

and a lot of people really like her, but would not consider themselves a swifty. Basically, there's just because of the reputation. They'll put it in time. Even in her own music, she plays into her narrative and her role as a leader. She's all in on that shit. You think they're like Taylor Swift support groups

that meet in person or people who are such deep Taylor Swift fans that they make friends with other Taylor Swift fans and maybe they've started a con? I think if there was a commune, we would know because they would talk about it online, for sure. Like, that I'm sure of is like, Swifties, really intense Swifties, like I think we do like attention. So I think if there was a commune in the woods, we would know and I would have been on a smaller level. I feel like Swifties are constantly online talking about how like I met some of my closest friends online through the Swiftie fandom, even though we've never

met in real life, which like I think is feelings about go outside, but also like I believe you because I have met friends online on like a more like truly interpersonal level. Some of my closest friends, I feel like we have bonded because of our mutual love for her, forming the spark of a connection, and then finding out this person also loves Taylor Swift, and then you unpack all of that together and you talk about your favorite album,

and what towards have you been to a blah blah? And my friend Jared, we have truly bonded over our mutual appreciation of Taylor Swift, and it has brought us closer. That's like the fun, sweet, positive part of being in a cult. It's like, here is some doctrine for us to bond over. It's like for some people, it's the Bible,

and for some people, it's like some freaky text that a man in a beard wrote. And for some people, it's Taylor Swift's discography. And you know, that's what. And beautiful lyrics. That's terrible. That's terrible. What do you think it says about our culture in general right now? That worshiping Taylor Swift has come to mean so much more to people than just being a fan

of a pop star. Being a fan of Taylor Swift has become its own identity. There is an identity and community in saying, I'm a Swiftie. For me, I think it is net positive that so many people in our culture have raised her up to be like one of our greatest voices of this generation. No matter what you think about her, whether she is manipulative or sinister or just like a person writing about her feelings, I think she is like net positive and has had like a net positive effect on our culture.

So now we're going to play a little game. We always play a game with our guest on Sounds Like A Cult. This game is a Sounds Like A Cult stand by its culty quotes. So we're gonna read you a list of quotes and you're gonna have to guess whether the quote was said by Taylor Swift or a notorious cult leader from history. Quote number one, it's all the media's fault. Don't believe them. I would say a cult leader.

Yes, that's Jim Jones. I was like, Tyler Swift would never speak that way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am an overachiever, and I want to be known for the good things in my life.

I think that was Taylor Swift. You're correct. You're like, that was Taylor Swift on November 1st, like at 3 p.m. No, but like, was that from the Miss Americana documentary because I think it was the next quote Love without trust is a river without water. I'm taking this game too seriously like now that I'm on a streak Like I'm like if I break this I'll die. I don't I don't think that was her like a true swifty You're right the leader of the happy healthy holy happy, healthy, holy organization, Yogi budget.

Oh, I'm really proud of myself right now. You're on a streak. Really hope we get you with these last couple ones. The only thing I can't control is the spin of the press. And so if I know I can't control that, I have to let it go. Yeah, I just left. That's it.

Yes. Last quote. It's always good to be underestimated. Whoa. I want to say Taylor Swift though. Oh, my God, I'm wrong. I got her wrong. That's the best.

Yeah. And you're going to die. It's Donald Trump. Yeah. How could you do me like that, Amanda? I could see that completely opening like her reputation tour. Per being like, it's always good to be underestimated.

This moves like to the sky. Jill, thank you so much for being on the pod and for putting yourself in this vulnerable position. Thank you so much. This has been so fun and yeah, I hope I don't get trolled further. If anyone gets trolled from this little probably be us and we hope you don't but if you have to troll someone don't troll Jill she's been through so much if listeners want to keep up with you and your Taylor Swift coverage and other things Where can they find you? I am on Instagram as my name Jill Godowitz and Twitter Jill board spelled like billboard, which was a choice I made in college

and now I'm verified and I can't change it. And how are you can buy my book and read about some real deep-tailers with thoughts. So, Isa, out of the three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. What do you think about the cult of Taylor Swift? You're not going to like it. I think the cult of Taylor Swift is a live your life.

I think so too. Really? Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's a live your life in the way that we shock of the century thought Disney adults were a live your life. Yes, exactly because even in the worst-case scenarios her loyal followers They're not like actually sending nukes on her back Nobody's gotten like truly hurt and the person who could get the most hurt is Taylor Swift herself at that point She's the one kind of pushing away. When we're evaluating the verdict,

it is important to look at the worst case scenario. And even though there's been a little bit of psychological turmoil as a result of the Swiftie fandom, and it can really take over your life, and they do sort of have zero questioning of her, and there is this us versus them mentality. At the end of the day,

the stakes are pretty low. Yeah, and it's something that people are enjoying in a way that isn't destroying their lives. I think of all the cults that people can join in 2022. Yes, there's so many, and that's why I think it's important to zoom out and look at it on a comparative structure. Like you always say we grade on a curve. So I think on our curve, Taylor Swift really is a live your life.

If you want more evidence about what it means to be a live your life, versus watch your back, versus get the fuck out, go back and marathon our entire sounds like a cult back catalog. We do this on every episode. For any Swifties listening, I hope this puts your mind to rest. And I hope that we provided some really entertaining conversations as we lead up to her next album. Do you like the timing of this episode?

I know, it is this week! Well, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Downs like a cult is created, hosted and produced by Amanda Montel and Issa Medina. Michael Dorfman is our editor. Our podcast studio is all things comedy and our theme music is by Casey Colbe.

Thank you to our intern slash production assistant Noemi Griffin, subscribe to Sounds Like a Colbe wherever you get your podcasts. So you never miss an episode. And if you like our show, feel free to give us a rating and review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and check us out on Patreon at patreon.com slash Sounds Like a Colt.