Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Teachers

Episode Date: June 25, 2024

Catch Amanda on tour with The Big Magical Cult Show in Chicago & Minneapolis this July! Friday, July 12: The Big Magical Cult Show at Park West in Chicago, IL (buy tickets here!) Saturday, July 13: The Big Magical Cult Show at Cedar Cultural Center in Minneapolis, MN (buy tickets here!) Class is in session and boy oh boy is it perturbing. Teaching is not just a profession, it's a calling to shape young hearts and minds—one that looks all wholesome on the outside, but once you're lured in, actually comes with labor exploitation, emotional manipulation, weird power dynamics created by the tenure system, and other sinister qualities that high-key resemble a cult. The cult of teaching is perhaps our single most passionate and consistent listener request in Sounds Like A Cult history, and to help us bring it to life, we're doing another "Interview A Listener" episode, featuring current New Jersey public school teacher, Charlyn Magat. Today's topic is of course massive and complex, and this conversation is just a small piece of it, informed by Charlyn's individual experience. We'd love to continue exploring the topic further, including potential episodes about the cults of Teach for America, boarding school, etc.! Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @amanda_montell To order Amanda's new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality, click here :) To subscribe to her new Magical Overthinkers podcast click here! Thank you to our sponsors, who make this show possible: Head to Squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, go to https://www.squarespace.com/CULT to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Get 20% off your first order of Liquid I.V. when you go to LiquidIV.com and use code CULT at checkout Earn points by paying rent right now when you go to joinbilt.com/cult.

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I also host a new podcast called Magical Overthinkers and I'm going back on tour this summer. I'm doing a really, really fun live show called The Big Magical Cult Show in Chicago on July 12th, Minneapolis on July 13th. And I'm also doing a really fun book tour event in Seattle on July 29th. So please, please get tickets, links in show notes.

Every week on the show, you're gonna hear about a different culty group or guru from the Zeitgeist, from Peloton to Purity Rings, which I discuss with the help of a special guest. To try and answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult, but is it really? ["Purity Rings Theme"] Sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into?

A live-your-life? A watch your back? Or a get-the-fuck-out level cult? After all, cultishness shows up in a whole heck of a lot of different places these days. It's not just little mancini compounds in the woods or in the desert. Cults can show up in the classroom. That's right. Today we are doing one of our most highly and urgently requested topics of all time, the Cult of Teachers, the Cult of Teaching. And I knew that this would be another fantastic topic for our interview a listener format.

The Cult of Cruise ships was the first time that we did this, and it was so delightful. I wanted to do it again. And because we got so many impassioned requests to do the Cult of Teachers, I decided to put out a call for listener submissions to be our guest today. I am so excited to introduce you to the gal that was chosen. Her name is Charlene Lynch and she has had a whole cornucopia of culty experiences. She is currently a teacher and has been for over 15 years. She's taught at 11 different schools.

Every time she tries to leave the cult, she just can't. She just pivots. Like cult happened to the max. It's like going from Mary Kay to Avon to Beachbody to Amway. Those are MLMs. She just can't give it up. But we love her and we love that level of hope. I also wanna make a quick disclaimer

because the cult of teaching is a massive subject, right? And we've covered a lot of different modern-day school cults on the show before homeschooling, Catholic schools, academia, aka university culture, etc. etc. Teaching is holy shit. What a beast. This episode is not intended to be interpreted as anything close to a comprehensive investigation of the cult of teaching or applicable to all teachers. How could it be? Sounds like a cult is, it's not journalism. It is a lighthearted one hour show.

This conversation today is really just to sort of start what seems to be a sorely needed dialogue about how culty teaching can be, not just how draining and how stressful, but how cultish this industry can really be. Of course it goes without saying that teaching is an incredibly diverse practice and profession, with as many sects as there are students, there are charter schools, there are private schools, there are military schools, there are infinite types of teachers, all with their own culture, their own culty flavor. Today's conversation will be shaped around Charlene's experience teaching in both public

and a little bit private schools, K through 12. Her time teaching is really going to inform our conversation today. So I hope that you can come along for this ride knowing that we will in no way be able to address every aspect. And yet I hope the conversation is entertaining and validating and gets some conversations conversationing. So without further delay, I am excited to introduce today's very special guest, a devoted acolyte of the cult of Sounds Like a Cult, Charlene. Here she is.

Charlene, could you please introduce yourself to the listeners and explain a little bit your involvement with the cult of teaching? I'm a New Jersey teacher and within the 16 years that I have been in education, I've worked in 11 different school districts. So some people who are listening, you might know me because I've worked in so many different schools in New Jersey. Our listeners are like, you taught me how to read. So I mean, I have so many questions that I'll get to later, but just to sort of explain what subjects have you taught and I guess what were some of those early signs that teaching

might be a cult? Yeah. So I am a middle school math, science and special ed teacher, and it was really hard to get a job in 2008. So when I found that I really liked middle school and that I just happened to be good at math and science, those were easy things to hire. But then also having that trifecta of the special education component was really helpful in getting a job. Keeping it was a little bit hard, but hence the culty aspects of it. So there would be like these very early signs that I didn't quite belong. One of those being that teacher voice.

Oh my God. I know exactly what you're talking about. I don't think I could do it on the spot, but if I heard it, it would send a spingle down my tingle. Oh yeah, definitely. So sometimes it'll come out from other people in public because I talk pretty bubbly anyway. But when teachers are talking down to you and they're really condescending, that's what it sounds like. And if you're not making good choices, whoo, tingle. Yes. Oh my God. I mean, language is obviously such, such a clear and early sign that there are power dynamics and an us versus them dichotomy. But I guess to sort of like back it way up, when we put out our call for listeners who've had experience in the cult

of teaching to submit to be our guest, what motivated you to want to send us an email? I think because within the cult of teaching, I've always been in that out group. It was so palpable that like, okay, there's something going on. I want to belong. I don't belong. It was kind of like that kid at lunch that doesn't have anyone to sit with. And while I had some really nice acquaintances and some really good friendships later on down the line in some school districts, I could always tell that I was a little bit on the outside. So that was kind of like one thing that made me want to submit. And also the fact that I know a lot of other teachers feel that way too, but they're just kind of scared to

admit anything or to say anything for fear of getting found out. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for being brave. Actually though, I mean, I'm being cheeky, but genuinely, like, I mean, I've had to sort of get over this. And the lighthearted tone of this podcast is protective, but it is scary to come out and say, you know, this group that I got involved with because of this larger than life promise ended up being a little bit exploitative

or not all that it was cracked up to be to the point that it could be considered cultish. And admitting to that and sort of sharing some of your experiences can come with shame, judgment, not to deter you or intimidate you. Because actually, first of all, I don't think we've ever had a more highly requested episode than the Cult of Teachers. I swear to God, every day people submit this request. And we also got so many responses from listeners wanting to participate in this episode.

But why do you think so many teachers, at least the teachers who listen to this show, why do you think they were so passionate and so persistent about wanting to sort of expose the cultishness of the profession? I think to help make the future generations of education a lot better because whatever is happening now is not working.

And not to be a dick, but it's like the ways that school is assessing. It's a very old school. The things that used to work before aren't working now. And I think there's a really big emphasis on technology, but it's just not being used the right way. So I think on a very deep level, things have to be severely overhauled. And that's why I think a lot of teachers are just like, things have to change in order to get better because the way it is now is not working, especially like in a post-ish COVID world. Just to clarify for listeners, have you taught in public schools, private schools? What kind of schools have you taught in?

So all mostly public schools, middle school and now high school, but three years of my life, I worked in a private school. Can you talk a little bit about the differences in cultishness between the two cultures? Oh yeah. So first of all, the private school, here's the lingo. It's called an independent school. So that just sounds like cooler at first. Yeah. Oh my God. Very euphemistic. Oh, for sure. And instead of like the triggering word of principal, vice principal, the authority figures were called a headmistress. Instead of a principal, yes. Which sounds like more British. It sounded so cool. And even just like their grade systems, instead of saying elementary school, middle school, it would be lower school and upper school. Just the fact that it was

different. And by then I had already been teaching like eight years, so I wanted something way different. Yeah. And I mean, which environment do you think is cultier? Oh, definitely the independent school. How so? Okay. So just the fact that they get paid such little money. I was living at my parents' house and that's honestly the only way I was able to keep that job for like three years. Like you shouldn't have to be able to afford to work at a place. I was able to afford to work at this place because I lived with my parents and the salary for three whole years was $42,500. So

that's pretty culty. Just even the disrespect for other people's education and time. We all had master's degrees. Some people have doctorates. They haven't seen a raise probably since I left there even. I mean, maybe if they did, good for them, but I don't think they did. Oh my God. So ostensibly, the tuition was really expensive. Where the fuck was all that going? To the snacks? The fucking auditorium seat cushions? Where was that going? Actually, you had to see their lunches. Their lunches were really good. The ham and cheese croissants were so good. Oh my God. Working in exchange for no money, just croissants.

So where was that money going? That's a really good-ass question. But then also, in addition to having to actually educate the students, we had to act as kind of like a marketing force because the livelihood of the school was built on the tuition that parents were paying even if they had gotten some financial aid. And we would kind of be influenced to have more connections or like to really take care of a student to make sure we keep an extra eye on them because like, oh, I hear they're looking at the neighboring independent school or they might switch to public school. So that was a weird pressure. And I think just because by that point I had been so burnt out from public school, I was like, you know what,

I'll take it. There's no tenure here. You get evaluated every year. It seems a lot more fair. And just the novelty alone was enough to kind of suck me in. Okay. So after three years of that experience, you went back to public school teaching. Yeah, that was the first time I quit. And I was like, Oh, I'm going to do something else with my life. But you haven't. No, I keep trying to. Okay. And we're going to talk about the barriers to exit in a bit. So throughout this conversation, we're going to be referencing both your public and private school experiences.

Of course, your experience does not represent all, but this is the conversation that we're having. And I am looking forward to it. Let's get into our analysis. So when I think about the teaching profession through the lens of cultishness, one of the first aspects that jumps out to me is the sort of false promise of it all.

So we'll state the obvious, as a little kid growing up in capitalism, I do remember that one of the jobs that children would say that they wanted to be when they grew up was a teacher. At least the really sweet kids, you know, because there was this sort of halo surrounding the profession, the sort of Miss Honey Matilda relationship, you know, it's promised to be really inspiring and selfless and angelic and almost patriotic. Like you're shaping the next generation of citizens, like becoming a teacher is this

transcendent role. And then the reality is in so many ways, not so angelic and transcendent all the time. I'll quote some stats for you. One 2024 survey by Rand showed that teachers are more than twice as likely to be stressed and burnt out as other working adults. The American Educational Research Association conducted a study which found that American teachers

are 40% more likely to experience symptoms of anxiety compared to healthcare workers. Shocking, right? Holy shit, yeah. 20% more likely than office workers and 30% more likely than workers in other kinds of professions, including farming and military. Let's talk about why that might be. Off the top, I want to ask, how were you lured into the cult of teaching? Like, how did they getcha? Oh my gosh, it started from like day one.

And a lot of teachers, they had such positive experiences in school. And I was one of those people. I thrived in school. I was such a good student. And the thing that was very alluring was that school is very predictable, structured, social, and fun.

It was like a little mini cult and I like structure. Yes. And I also thought it would be so easy because, okay, so back in our day, teachers used to be able to sit at their desks and I was like, that job looks easy. Oh yeah. I love to sit. I myself love to sit. Podcasting involves a lot of sedentary-ness. I mean, like elementary school teachers, they walked around more, but I never knew how tall my middle school or high school teachers were. I never saw them.

They were always just behind a desk. And I was like, that looks secure. Damn, they get to teach, they get to learn also. And the aesthetic of it, I loved the teacher desks with their little calendars on there and their wooden blocks with the date. It was like being Ray Dunn before Ray Dunn even existed. Yeah. Okay. So what I'm hearing is that you craved systems, perhaps a uniform and aesthetic, all the things that really attract people to organizations that unfortunately could be cults. Oh yeah. And even the way it was like portrayed in TV and movies, like Ms. Honey, like, oh my gosh, when you said that, I was like, oh my God, that's who I want to be when I grow up. I don't want to be like the Trunchbull. Now I'm a lot more like the Trunchbull.

I think after like year one, I think you become a little bit more like the Trunchbull than Miss Honey. Maybe even like the third marking period of the first year, you're just like, fuck that Miss Honey shit. Yeah, I'm setting up a chokie right now. Oh my god. So you had this romantic vision of what your life as Miss Honey would look like. I mean, obviously you get into it and pretty quickly it's dramatic and fast-paced and stressful and you're

dealing with a lot. But what were some of those early signs that this wasn't gonna be exactly what you signed up for in a cultish way? So the first year of teaching, I'm so used to being new. So in many districts, you have a professional development like week before you actually start teaching. And it's just kind of exciting to be in this community with new teachers, all starting a new district together. But one of the red flags was like going to that first union meeting and it's like they close all the doors. And then they're like, listen, we got to stand up for our rights, which I'm all for. But that was the first time that I really had a negative

like, oh, teachers don't really have a great relationship with the administrators and stuff like that. So that was my first time that I was like, oh, that's kind of like a red flag. In terms of the cultiness, I think just for me being an outsider and being excluded or not necessarily asked to join things, that felt like that in-group and out-group thing. And I had no idea because I thought it was the right thing to do. The sense of martyrdom and badge of honor for

teachers staying past contract time. If school ended at three, the next day people would brag and say, oh yeah, I was here until 6.30, my husband had to make dinner. And I'm like, damn, contract time. You know, if school ended at three, the next day people would brag and say, oh yeah, you know, I was here until 630, my husband had to make dinner. And I'm like, damn, you win. Right. It's a sort of burnout brag operating times a thousand in the teacher industry is what I'm hearing. So I want to share more information about the recruitment and the training and the labor exploitation. But first, I want to ask you a slightly more personal question. What was responsible for making you feel like an outsider? Were there factors that contributed to making

you feel like you were on the outside of this cult that you wanted to be a part of, but at the same time, were noticing was problematic? Yes. So I've always been new in a district and never acquired or achieved tenure. So when you first come in, there was always that mentality and always the verbiage of people saying, oh, well, you know, if I'm lucky enough to be here next year, it's like they should be lucky that I'm here. But I didn't think that way when I first started teaching. There was always that language around the hallway, like, okay, well, if I'm here next

year and at meetings, teachers who were not tenured yet would say, oh, well, when I'm tenured, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that and I'm going to speak up more. I'm going to leave right at 3 p.m. I'm only going to do what my job description says. I'm not going to send emails after hours and stuff like that. So there was that like tenure mentality, but then also the people who achieved tenure,

I don't know if it was just like a me thing, but I felt like they had a smugness about them and then it would kind of like rub into the face of the people who didn't have tenure. I think that was like the clear defining line. It's like, who's tenured, who's not. And weirdly enough, the people who don't have tenure, they're the ones that are struggling probably the most

because they're the ones that are trying to hustle for their worth in order to get tenure, like take on an extra activity, be the head of a committee or something like that, do more professional development, participate more at meetings. So it was just like a circus kind of. Okay. So I'm hearing that there was really a culture of fear of like, I could be banished at any time effectively, a culture of silencing, of conformity, of us versus them dynamics among teachers who, it should really be like teachers against the man, but those are not the dynamics that a cult encourages.

I'm gonna ask more specifically about the whole tenure thing later, because that seems like a centerpiece of the cult of teaching. But first, let's talk a little bit about the recruitment and the training aspect. For those who are unfamiliar, what does the process of becoming a K through 12 teacher

in America entail? So definitely the bachelor's degree, but then within that, if you wanted to graduate within the four years, I was lucky enough I got a scholarship in college. And when I decided I wanted to be a teacher, I did the math and I I was lucky enough, I got a scholarship in college. And when I decided I wanted to be a teacher, I did the math and I was like, okay, well I have to basically double major

without it even being recognized as a double major. Now looking back, I'm like, shit, that's red flag number one. Like, where's my recognition for doing all these extra credits? So basically you're double majoring in the content area that you're specializing in. So for me, that was science

and then all the teaching courses. But then the last semester is student teaching. So that's one semester that, A, you're paying to work, and B, you don't have that semester to take classes, so you have to squeeze everything in. So from there, I had to take summer classes my freshman year, sophomore year, junior year, just to graduate on time. So you have the education process itself.

And then even like student teaching is a whole thing that I didn't realize was kind of fucked up. Can you explain how that works? Because I was reading a little bit about it and it kind of just seems like this really labor exploitative protocol that you just do because this is how it's done.

And this is the tradition. And this is an honor for you to become a teacher, to do this service. Can you talk about that? Oh yeah, it's like you work for free, but I didn't think of it that way. When I was student teaching, it was so glorified to me in my mind

because I was student teaching in my hometown. It was with a teacher that I really liked. She was my cheerleading coach. I really liked her. So that experience was great. But then I would go home so tired. and then I really saw like, you know, you have to do your grading and your paperwork and stuff like that. So all of that took so much time. This is like a little trip down memory lane. So for how little we get paid and how much we're exploited, we are so

freaking educated. We are a bunch of educated motherfuckers. That sounded scholarly. But in addition to the regular college credits and then the student teaching, a lot of times to even get a job because there's so much competition, you have to get a master's. And that's a really kind of fucked up game because then you would have to wrestle with, well, do I want like more likely to get hired because then I'll be cheaper without a master's or do I want to have a master's and be more marketable? What a weird decision to have to make. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, this is just such a classic cult tactic, framing exploitation as privilege. It is your divine purpose to be a teacher and to work for free and

that makes you special. And that is such an insidious reframing. Let's sort of quantify this exploitation. Obviously there is a major lack of funding in education in this country and underpayment and I feel like those aspects are such an integral part of the cult of teaching that as a culture, we're almost desensitized to it. To provide some fast facts, teaching on average pays 76% of the average salary earned by similarly educated professionals. Okay, so you were talking about you being over-decorated with degrees or whatever, only to be paid nearly a quarter less than others in your sort of demographic.

That was according to a Forbes piece titled Underpaid and Undersupplied, The Hidden Costs of Teaching in America by Linda Darling-Hammond. And I'm sure you have all too much experience with this. Teachers often have to pay out of pocket for their own supplies, which is so beyond ridiculous. My best friend from college was a sixth grade

English teacher in the Bronx for many years. And I was horrified by the amount of her personal funds she was shelling out on like cute posters and stuffed animals and whatever. And she was like so excited to do it. This is illuminating. Apparently 55% of teachers don't want their children to follow in their career footsteps. That is, according to a piece titled, Why is it so hard to be a teacher today? by Abby Shukayo,

published in the Art of Education. That same Forbes piece that I referenced earlier reported that 95% of teachers spend their own money on their supplies, averaging a yearly total of $470 un-reimbursed, which evens out to 13% of your first month's salary, diabolical. To sort of come back to the student teaching training process, in a piece for the Odyssey titled, Is Student Teaching Exploitation of Students, a former Maryland public student teacher named Emily Kavanagh said that she had to pay to student teach, working 50 hours a week and earning nothing. How is that okay? And yet it is just accepted by the culture, by the industry. When you break it down quantitatively

this way, it's really quite horrifying. It's because we're women. Totally. I was about to mention the gendered aspect. Can you talk about how gender plays into this cult? Because I have to imagine that superintendents and the sort of invisible people at the top are probably mostly men, while caregiving and taking care of children, whatever, teaching is primarily a female profession, not naturally or anything, but in our culture. Can you talk about those dynamics through the lens of cultishness? Oh, yeah. So the male teachers, they are maybe sometimes less decorated or whatever with degrees and shit, but just the fact that they are a man automatically adds just an invisible

probably like 80% on their evaluation than women. Like they could do the same thing, if not worse than a lesson that like a woman did, but they would just get a higher score. A higher score from whom? From hoops. Oh yes, the principal in their teacher observation. So let's say I did something and it was like a really nice lesson and the kids were participating and then some dude comes in, does the same lesson and no one's participating. He'd probably still get a higher score. Wow. Okay, so we're already kind of talking about it, but like, I want to kind of figure out who are the cult leaders in the cult of teaching.

Oh, there's a whole like circle jerk of like cult leaders. Break it down. So teachers at the bottom and in some bigger schools, sometimes there's like a department like supervisor that you have to kind of play Kate to. And that department supervisor has to respond to the principal and or vice principal. So already you could even see how top heavy it is and I'm not even at the top yet. And then from there, there is the superintendent and then they are most of the times influenced by parents. So that is just a crazy amount of opposition from all different sides and not to mention some of the students who might be the ones that are reporting to the parents that they're

being held accountable and that they're getting a bad grade. So not even earning it, getting a bad grade on something. So it really is this us against them mentality. I picture like being in a circle and everyone like pointing their finger at me and stuff like that. Oh, my God. So it's almost like teachers are just like getting shit on at the bottom of the hill by so many parties. I would actually rather get shot on at the bottom of the hill by so many parties. I would actually rather get shat on from the bottom of a hill than endure what actual like

power dynamic. Like if I had to pick A or B, like do you want to respond to all of these parties or do you want to get shat on on the bottom? Yeah, I would pick the latter for sure. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah, because like you can wash that poo off at the end of the day. You can't wash off the trauma of a parent screaming in your face over email.

Oh, definitely. And then the men thing. Okay. So a lot of them are coaches. So sometimes they might get hired over someone who is more qualified than they are because they are coach. They might not even have the certification. They might not even know how to teach reading, math, history, anything like that. And we're supposed to get these

certifications, but sometimes that gets overlooked if they're a wrestling coach. Shut the literal fuck up. Wait, this explains so much because a lot of my male teachers in middle school were ding-dongs, but they were like, the basketball coach. Oh, definitely. Oh my God. And then you know what's even worse? Those people sometimes end up becoming administrators. So it's like, sometimes you just see it coming down the pike.

It's like, mother fuck, that asshole is going to be my boss one day. Horrifying. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, but like if you had to choose and you don't actually have to, but like who is the puppet master at the top of this thing? Like who truly holds power? Is it like the fucking secretary of education? Like who is really the cult leader here? I think the fact that there's so many kind of hidden parties like conspiring against

teachers, it's like whack-a-mole. Like you don't know. It's just like, okay, well, who do I not piss off today? Or, hey, I really need help with this. Nope, I'm not asking. I'm going to ask somebody that I work with that's in the same department as me. I'm not going to, I'm not asking my direct supervisor, not the people who actually say, hey, if you need any help, don't hesitate to ask us. Oh, I'm gonna hesitate. Like I'm not asking for shit. Yeah, yeah. Okay, understood. And it's kind of how I was thinking of it. I mean, literally I wrote down part of what makes this cult so insidious and hard to pinpoint or mend

is because the cult leaders are so hidden and deep rooted and complex. It's not necessarily like Scientology or the military or corporate America where there's this like hierarchy where you can't skip rank. It's more of a tangle than that. It's like this knotted ball of nonsense and teachers are like suffering from so many different angles and so many different forms of cult leaders. Speaking of being tangled, like sometimes it's your very own person that you think is your best friend across the hallway and they might know something or you might say something to them and then they say it to somebody else who's a little bit higher and then it gets all around. So I think I learned in my,

it took me a while. It took me a while, probably like my fourth year or so to make sure that I don't say anything too personal to anyone or admit that I'm having a hard time. There's this thing where it just never became normalized to admit that you're struggling. Whoa. Yeah, that makes sense because you're just treading water at all times. You are in survival mode. There's so little space to have an emotional reality. Because it's so stressful and cutthroat, you have a hard time trusting the people around you, which can be really isolating. Let's get into some more details about the cult power dynamics among teachers, parents,

and students. First, I want to read some anecdotes and facts that I found online pertaining to the mistreatment of teachers within the school building, including by students themselves. A survey from the American Psychological Association Classroom Violence Directed Against Teachers Task Force, that's a fucking mouthful, found that 44% of teachers report being physically attacked by students. An anonymous teacher wrote on a board teacher's forum, a student threw a stapler at my head today when I said they couldn't have a hall pass. The same survey found 75% of teachers said they'd been verbally harassed by a student in some way during the past year. The stories that my best friend from college would tell me about the ways that students had harmed her body and soul,

she would laugh and she has a very dark sense of humor and so like I would laugh with her but there's so many reasons why people burn out on teaching because where else is it literally okay to be attacked. Also noted around the web is a sort of hazing dynamic that you kind of referred to that exists between old and new teachers exacerbated by lack of resources and tenure again which we will address shortly. I was looking at the New Jersey Education Association website that is a justice centered union. Even the website of this union says, in addition to honing teaching techniques,

becoming familiar with their curricula, developing classroom management abilities and creating their pedagogical ideology, new educators are also subject to expectations from school teachers to advise extracurricular clubs, volunteer for non-instructional duties, and take on roles in committees. While more senior staff sometimes hold the sentiment that new educators must undergo the same hardships that they did in order to understand their place in the wider school

community, it is often the case that more senior educators pass on these roles out of exhaustion. So my question for you is, cults often create or at least allow conflict to exist among members to keep them exhausted, fighting and distracted so that those at the top can remain in power. In your experience, how do these dynamics show up in the cult of teaching, specifically among teachers? This is like actually a really good therapy session because I'm like, oh, now I'm realizing why would I jump at the chance to participate?

I'm not much of an athlete, but any type of non-sport activity I would try to do if there was a meeting and they needed people to take on these initiatives or to be a part of a committee. It would always be the same for new teachers volunteering their time. And meanwhile, they're the ones that need the most time for planning to avoid conflict. So it'd be like, you wouldn't want that meeting to end with like, okay, well, someone's got to do it.

And then people get mad. It's just kind of like that people pleasing mentality, like, okay, well, I'll step up and do it. And then that way, A, the meeting can end and B, the veteran teachers won't be mad at the new teachers. Oh my God. That sounds like it can create some serious chronic stress. Like all of your behavior is just motivated by wanting to avoid making people above you mad. Like that's not inspiring. Yeah.

Yeah. And I didn't know it at the time, but it just kind of seemed like the things do. Like you said, you know, the teachers that are at the top like, oh, well, we had to do it before back in our day, and we put in our time. And it's just like, okay, man, I guess I'll do it because that's what we're supposed to be doing. Right? Well, because there's just this fucking system in this tradition and you just slot right in and it's so hard to interrupt. And now a quick break to tell you about our cult followed sponsors who make Sounds Like a Cult possible. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.

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ordinary water into extraordinary hydration with Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order of Liquid IV when you go to liquidiv.com and use code COLT at checkout. That's 20% off your first order when you shop better hydration today using promo code COL cult at liquidiv.com. Okay, I gotta tell you about built rewards. People often throw shade on renting. They call it a bad long-term deal. From what I know about interest right now, that's really not so true. Especially because of built rewards. Where your rent money isn't just paying the landlord, it's secretly plotting to fund your future dream home. I know that sounds upside down and backwards, but let me explain.

Built is breaking ground as the first rewards program that hooks you up with points on your rent. Every month, you just pay your rent, even with an old school check, and you watch the built points roll in. You can use these points on so many different things. You can use them on a vacation, on a hotel, on a flight. You could even use your points toward a future down payment on a house. Okay? This is just like a no-brainer. I've mentioned before, I'm not the high techiest gal on the face of the earth, but the BILT app is very user-friendly. It's very chic, actually.

I encourage you to check it out. Earn points by paying rent right now when you go to joinbilt.com slash colt. That's join B-I T dot com slash cult. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you joinbuilt.com slash cult to start earning points with your rent payments today. We were talking about busy work and going above and beyond a question from a listener who goes by at K.W. 5049 asks, how much pressure do you experience to do extra things that you aren't compensated for?

And could you talk a little bit more about where that pressure comes from and its effects on you as a person? So the really sneaky part was that it didn't feel like pressure at first. At first, it was fueled by the love of teaching and wanting to make an impact on the students and for the children. But then as I saw how it was actually affecting my teaching and

my ability to plan and assess and get to know each student, the pressure was really high because then it's like, shit, now I got to do both? Then it gets around like, oh, well, you know, she didn't do it or whatever. So there would be peer pressure. And then just kind of like that tenure looming over your head. You want to be seen as a team player. They say, we want team players, we want all hands on deck, we're a small school. So the pressure was immense. Especially if the pressure of maybe a school shutting down because they're not getting enough tuition from the parents, no pressure. That's just our salary. Little did I know that it was such a piss poor salary anyway that too bad on them. If they suck at recruiting, then why is it my problem? I feel like if I started

teaching now later on in my life when I kind of knew the things to say no to, maybe I wouldn't have gotten burnt out so badly. Well, I mean, there's a reason why cults often go after youth. I'm going to ask you a couple more listener submitted questions and then I want to hear a little bit more about your personal experience with your relationships with other teachers at these various schools. Another listener submitted question from Jackie Double D asks, in the current teaching climate, what is harder to deal with, the school board or parents? Definitely the parents.

Just the parents because they influence the school board. Wow. Well that and then you're also directly interfacing with them. I feel like I used a culty word. I think I just made that up. Interfacing. I don't normally say that in my vocabulary. No I love that.

Yeah so that's why the parents are the fucking hardest. So there's the email, you know, it could really ruin your fucking Friday night when you're looking at your phone and you have Gmail synced to your school email and then you just see a parent email and it's just like, oh my God. And then you look at the person's name and you're like, God damn, they're really tight with like the principal and they're really tight with the board of ed and you know, you're pissing off the wrong person. And especially when you're not tenured, it's just like, oh, I got to placate these people. Otherwise, they're going to, I don't know, influence the decision whether I get rehired or not, my whole livelihood. So I would definitely say parents, because

they're the ones that are the most like immediately in your face. Like you see them, you see their email address. Back in the day when teachers and parents used to like use phone calls more, then you'd hear their voice on the phone and it would just be like, oh shit. Also really fun. Parents are just straight up allowed in the building sometimes. So like there was like, you know's times that I'd be teaching and parents would just be walking in the hallway, some would just go in my classroom and it's like, hi, do we have a meeting? Because it's kind of third period right now. Oh my God, it's so disrespectful and dehumanizing. It's like, if you worked in a corporate office, would random family members of people that you work with just like stroll in and interrupt you

and treat you like shit? No. Which also makes me think like some of what you're describing is sort of similar to like a corporate office environment, except it's compounded by being paid extremely little, being pressured low key under the guise of this inspirational facade to go above and beyond. And it's not just like go above and beyond for this tech company, it's to go above and

beyond for like the future of our children. Mistakes are really high, compounded with like that knotted tangle of influences where you're just like the punching bag from so many people who are both like inside and outside the school and The fact that it's like such a deep-rooted and integral system like we fucking need school We don't need uber or like any random fucking startup, but like we need the education system It just makes it so hard to radically revise What a shit show and again like with the physical abuse versus the mental abuse, I would actually rather reuse as a human punching bag than to endure some of the

verbal email or like sometimes like even through hearsay, even if something was paraphrased, just even the nervous system response I would hear from if a parent said something, if there was like a button you could press, like, Hey, do you want to answer this email or do you want them to just punch you in the face and get it over with? 10 out of 10, I'd rather just get punched. Okay, so we're like laughing and it's kind of a joke,

but it's actually not a joke. And I relate to that just because of my own experience being in like a cult, like one-on-one relationship. Check out our Cult of Toxic Relationships episode if you haven't already. But I remember, and like not to get super dark, but I guess this is the whole tone of sounds like a cult. It's like tee hee hee, boo hoo hoo.

I remember being in that relationship where there was a lot of emotional abuse, psychological abuse, verbal abuse. And I remember thinking like, I don't know why I'm so fucked up or what is wrong with me, but I kind of just wish that he would like punch me in the face. And I think that went through my mind because I thought maybe like, if he punched me in the face, I would know for sure that it was abuse and that I should leave, you know, there is messaging in our culture that being on the receiving end of verbal abuse or emotional abuse is not as bad,

but that is so traumatic and sticks with you and like gets into the groundwater of your psyche and your personhood and like stays in your body. Like verbal abuse and emotional abuse can manifest as physical abuse. That chronic stress can make you sick. So like I don't know how we address that because like emotional abuse is not illegal the way that punching someone is illegal and I don't even know how you would go about making that illegal, but this is why it's so hard to even persecute and bring justice upon cult leaders

in sort of religiously abusive cults is because like calling someone a piece of shit every single day is not illegal, even though that can give a person fucking IBS. Yep. In terms of even the verbal abuse, sometimes it could be really obvious, like a really hateful email, but then sometimes it could just be a one-on-one meeting with your supervisor

and they use a word that you know has a bigger weight to it. So for example, one of the meetings I had, it was just a very insidious word. It was just like, you know, I think that in your lessons, you have, there's a little bit of a disconnect and just the way that it sounded, I was like, oh damn, I'm done. Yeah. It just kind of became. So now even like, if I see that word written or if I hear someone say it, well, you know, not like, you know, disconnect the power cord, but if it's within that type of social. That euphemistic threatening. Yes. That's what it is. The euphemistic. Yep.

I completely understand. I'm going to give you my therapy copay because there's so much that's like uncovering. It's like, damn, that's why that messed me up. Or you know, like a meeting when you're not getting renewed and you hear something like that, like, oh, you know, there's a disconnect or like, you know, the culture and climate is like, I don't know, I forget what I was going to say there, but there's definitely those more like hidden words that when you overanalyze them, which teachers do, it's super triggering. And sometimes when you hear it in a different context,

it still could be. Well, cults always use euphemisms to disguise or obscure unpleasant truths. You know, it's like in Jonestown, obviously, the cult of teaching and the cult of Jonestown are not the same, but their use of euphemism is a little bit. And, you know, it's like Jim Jones would use language like the great transition to describe death, to describe suicide or coerce suicide, murder, whatever. Being able to master that type of euphemistic language to control people and disguise threats with slightly more pleasant verbiage, it's a cult tactic, no doubt about it. Another listener question that will bridge into what I want to ask you next, Marie Pretel TJ asks,

is teaching different grades like being in different cults? Oh, absolutely. When I was writing notes, I was like, okay, so I wonder where we're going to go with this. Is it going to be more like the cult of education, the cult of teachers, or the day-to-day teaching? And there absolutely is. And I know this because I've taught in so many different grade levels in schools. The cult of the third grade is a lot different than the cult of not even that much older sixth grade, let's say. So like if you're in elementary school, there's a whole different fanfare of display and even the Halloween costumes and Spirit Week. Yeah. And do you credit that to the conformist expectation? Like there is

a standard for what a third grade teacher is and this is the language that we use and this is how we do Spirit Week and whatever. And you need to do whatever it takes, spending your own money, staying late, to be the best that that you can possibly be. Is that like what makes each grade level and each subject culty? I think in the long run, it does. The thing that starts it off is like, okay, well, it's separated by age and it's separated by content area and it's separated by the different expectations. But when you step into an establishment that's already been there, like let's say you're joining a third grade team and they've all been together for the past 10 years, yeah,

you're going to do shit the way they do. Yeah, right. You just like have to immediately slot in, you know, you could go in with all kinds of dreams about how you're going to do things differently and then nope, they don't let you. So then all of these pressures that create us versus them dynamics between teachers, whether it's like the seniority aspect, the tenure aspect, wanting to make a good impression and keep the peace by taking on more work or blah, blah, blah.

How has this affected your relationship with other teachers? If you don't mind me asking, can you talk about some culty experiences you had with other teachers? So, not only sometimes is it different if you are a new teacher, there are certain hierarchies within the new teacher group. So, if you're just a maternity leave replacement, or if you're just some type of leave replacement, sometimes that puts you lower. Some people have gotten their full-time forever jobs that way, but in my experience anyway, more often than not, that makes you a little bit more of an outsider. So an example, if teachers kind of like not really helping each other out, there was one interaction that I'll never

forget. It made me even more jaded. She saw me helping other teachers connect wirelessly to the printer because I'm good at technology. And she pulled me aside and was like, you know, you really shouldn't be helping other teachers out because no one's going to help you. And I was like, oh shit. That was another teacher who said that to you. Another teacher, another teacher. So talk about like different grade level dichotomies. This was a second grade teacher that said this to you? Another teacher. Another teacher. So talk about different grade level dichotomies. This was a second grade teacher that said this to me. The teacher that teaches kids to share. Oh my God. Are adults not supposed to share? So sometimes elementary teachers can be so mean. Not every single one of them. I say that with all the parentheticals and all the disclaimers.

Oh yeah. No, my second grade teacher, Ms. Schultz, shout the fuck out. She was Ms. Honey. So okay, yeah, so there's this like sort of toxic individualist, everyone out for themselves, non-collaborative attitude, juxtaposed with like, sharing is caring, one, two, three, eyes on me. Oh, definitely. And like when I would be in a school, so I mean, I make friends really easily just because I'm like really bubbly and stuff. be in a school, so I mean, I make friends really easily just because I'm like really bubbly and stuff. And in different school districts, you know, we'd be good friends, we'd be acquaintances,

sometimes eat lunch together. But there are some times that people would go from being my friend and then usually when there's the writing on the wall that I'm probably not going to get rehired because, you know, I share one observation. It went okay. It didn't go as good as I thought it would. That's already writing on the wall enough for you to be like, oh, I'm going to get rehired because you know, I share one observation. It went okay. It didn't go as good as I thought it would. That's already writing on the wall enough for you to be like, oh, I'm going to stay the fuck away from her because I can't be associated with her because she's got the plague. Whoa. Or if people saw that like it wasn't beneficial to be my friend

or to be associated with me, I would just get less text messages from them. Even like snubbed in the hallway, like what? Oh my God. There'd be like two other people in the hallway and it's like, I pretend they don't see me and it's like, I see you with my eyes and then there's like mirrors in the hallway. So then I see them like threefold walking the other way.

Less invitations for lunch. It's just kind of like, damn, what does Scarlet Letter? Like I didn't even get to fuck anyone and I got this like Scarlet Letter. That is so toxic and immature. And like, again, I can't handle that these people are all shaping young minds to be good collaborators or they're supposed to be.

And I can somewhat relate because I used to work in this semi-corporate office where I just did not fit in. You know what I mean? Like my disposition was just not suited to that steppardy environment. And fortunately I was able to like leave on my own accord, but it sounds like teaching is this almost toxic lover that pushes you out for not being the specific type

of conformist, you know, submissive, this and that individual, but then it lures you back in. Yeah. Okay, so this bridges into my next question then it lures you back in. Yeah. Okay, so this bridges into my next question, which is about sort of surveillance. Like, how does that work in teaching? Like the whole observation thing, getting unhired, rehired, asked to leave.

Did you ever feel like you had a target on your back in any way as a teacher? Like, did you feel like you were living in fear? Like there was someone from on high who could come down and observe you on a day when you were not behaving in the way that you should have or something. And that could result in you not being asked back. Like, could you talk about those dynamics? Because that sounds terrifying. Oh, definitely. So let's say you have a class full of kids and you're the very first period teacher, you're their homeroom teacher, and a kid might be coming from home and they had a bad

morning. They might act out in your class. And then let's say they are really misbehaving, they're not listening, and then you're just too afraid to ask for help because, you know, why ask for help when you could try to contain it yourself, quote unquote. Or when literally other teachers are saying no one will help you. Oh, absolutely. So then something like that might cause a little bit of like a red flag. So then it's like, oh,

okay, now that mark is on my back. So little things that add up. So whether it's somebody misbehaving and then that word gets around or kind of like the example of hearing that an observation didn't go that great. It's kind of just like, oh, there's like a little bit of a target. But at the one school, the independent school, just by virtue of being new and stepping in after a teacher has retired, that already makes you automatically an asshole. Like as if you like murdered them or something. It's like, no, they retired.

They're like living their life. So just by virtue of being new, parents have like this microscope on you, like, oh, you better not like mess up my child. And you know, you better make a really good connection with them. So it really is all the time people are watching. So in that district, I really liked how I didn't live too close to there because I was like, damn, God forbid they see me at Costco in the wine section. They could be watching me there too.

Oh, that's so culty because it follows you beyond the school walls. Like it's everywhere you go. It's like you can't have an authentic social media presence or anything because you're being watched all the time. Okay, so we've been like dancing around this topic this whole entire time, but like we have to talk about tenure because this is perhaps the cultiest thing about teaching. Obviously cults love a good hierarchy.

Tenure as I understand it, basically makes it so that a teacher is really hard to let go unless they've broken the law or proven themselves really fucking incompetent. I read online that most US states require three years of experience to qualify for tenure. California only requires two. Apparently, the first unions for teachers were formed during the Great Depression, according to a piece on resilienteducator.com titled K through 12 teacher tenure understanding the debate. Those who favor tenure say that it protects teachers from undue firing, it prevents firing old teachers to hire new teachers for lower salaries,

it protects those teaching perceived controversial content, it allows teachers to vocalize disagreements more to push back perhaps, and it makes for a better selection of teachers in the classroom. But critics of the tenure system argue that tenure allows teachers to perform poorly without getting fired, it values seniority over quality. Obviously it creates these us versus them dynamics and it doesn't actually make faculty stronger than schools without tenure if at all.

Again, as we've been mentioning, additionally competing for tenure positions and the internal toll of that slash self-consciousness that it might trigger is so similar to the sort of levels of enlightenment that cults create to control their members, like the NXIVM sashes or Scientology's bridge to total freedom.

As someone with experience navigating tenure, but you don't have it yet, right? No, I've actually never gotten tenure. I've gotten close. You've never gotten tenure. No. So I've always known what it's like to be at the bottom, but definitely not trans. I've never transcended.

I've never transcended to tenure. And I think I have such a beef with it because when I was little, I thought teaching was easy because I saw so many tenure teachers, I don't know, they were just kind of like sitting down. I was like, oh man, that's really easy. Or that thing of I could do that. I could do a better job than that person and that person stays in the job forever. And then the people that are trying really hard at the bottom, they're the ones that are getting let go. Whether there's like a budget cut or something like that or something political

or just like some other reason, not doing the right thing, not pleasing the right person. And that's why sometimes the people who are tenured and at the top, they stay there and it's like they're having to weed people out, but they're not doing it correctly and they're not weeding the right people out. Like the new teachers that are trying really hard, they're not the ones that need to be fired. The ones that need to be fired or the ones that used to be very heavily encouraged to retire are the ones that are just phoning it in. The ones that genuinely don't even like students anymore. If you don't care about teaching anymore, go live your life, go do something else. It's like targeting the wrong people. Right. Okay. Thank you for speaking to that.

Where do we begin addressing all of these issues with the cult of teaching when there are so many? One more question before we get into a micro topic that I just have to address so that the listeners who feel invested in this topic don't fucking come for me. It's Teach For America. One question before I do a little tiny diatribe about Teach For America is just like, how would you describe the barrier to exit, the cult of teaching? Because you're still in it. And we had a bunch of listeners submit questions about this as well. Like, why is it so difficult to leave? So, the extremely high exit cost. My husband actually came to the sad conclusion that even

though we don't get paid a whole lot of money, it's just kind of that like, A, emotional investment in being a teacher, but then also like, oh, well, I already got my master's degree. I'm certified. I'm a certified teacher. All the sun costs start coming in. Yep. People will say that I quit and I gave up on the students. Shame is an exit cost. Oh, for sure. And a lot of times people stay in teaching because they want to get their pension when it's time to retire. And they used to be better, but the health benefits. And mind you, sometimes the health benefits are needed you, sometimes the health benefits are needed as a result of classroom injury and sickness. That includes mental sickness.

I can only imagine. Dude, I feel mentally sick just listening to you talk about it. Oh yeah, doctor bills, therapy. A lot of times we get sick from school, whether it's germs from the students or sometimes the buildings themselves are so run down. They're like they have asbestos and shit in them. It's so crazy. Like how many teachers get sick? And I can't help but think that maybe it's because they are teaching in that building

with very little airflow. Oh my God. And they're so busy like ordering fucking classroom supplies from the container store to like get together and file a class action lawsuit. Yep. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And even just the sheer amount of money, whether it's on teaching supplies and sometimes on curriculum, sometimes the curriculum that the district provides isn't meeting, sometimes, a lot of times, it's not meeting the needs of the students and teachers know better. So, you know, we go and we look up these lesson plans and these

resources and we try them out and they cost money out of our pocket. So the exit cost for that, it really is very high. So with teachers who do have tenure, I can't speak to that experience, but teachers that do have tenure, they don't want to go through that process again of four years in getting tenure in one school, like, oh, well, why would you leave? You have tenure at that school. You can't leave a good thing. And it's like, is it really a good thing? Yeah. And another maybe subtler exit cost is that teaching is one of those professions that gets so embedded in your identity. It's like you don't teach. You are a teacher. And if leaving means losing that aspect of your identity, I mean, that's just too un-woring.

I can easily see how that alone could keep someone in. Okay. I want to share a few bullet points about Teach for America, which deserves its own episode truly. I mean, my ex who worked in advertising made some kind of commercial for Teach for America once was like hired to do that. And so I got to see a little bit of the inside of how Teach for America operates like a teeny tiny bit like 15 years ago and holy shit is it a cult. So Teach for America is kind of like the Peace Corps for teaching, as I understand it. It is a nonprofit with the goal to, and I quote, enlist, develop, and mobilize as many

as possible of our nation's most promising future leaders to grow and strengthen the movement for educational equity and excellence. How Teach for America works is they select fresh college graduates, young, nubile folks in their hope phase to commit to teaching for at least two years in a public or private charter K through 12 school and one of the 52 low income communities that the organization serves. They provide these intensive short-term trainings and camps. You participate in TFA as it's called without being a certified teacher, but you still get to teach at public schools as if you are curious. And if you aren't certified,

you can take sort of alternative coursework to get certified through TFA. TFA can provide people with like a Peace Corps-esque savior complex because they serve these underserved for or just cringe. I'm going to read to you a list of scenarios that other listeners who were kind enough to email about this topic submitted. And I'm going to ask you to determine if these scenarios are culty or just cringe. This is all in good fun. I hope people can understand. And there's also no way to win or lose this game.

Oh, nice. Thank God I'm not an athlete. So I'm all about the just have fun You're not an athlete and that is why you will never fast track your way to being math teacher slash coach I should have taken up wrestling Okay, first listener submitted scenario and culture just cringe says this aspiring librarian from Virginia Has to pay at the beginning of the year for a jeans pass which lets her wear jeans to work on Mondays only Colty or just cringe Explain I like I literally what does this mean? Oh, you've never heard of that before. No, that's it. That's a normal thing to teachers

That's why I didn't have to flinch at it because I know that life. So teachers can't just like wear whatever they want. They have to wear like kind of like more professional looking things. So you have to pay for your privilege to wear jeans on a certain day. And that is why it is culty. You have to pay to wear jeans. Yep. So if you want the privilege to wear jeans and it's not a Friday, not a mandated Friday that your administrator is like, hey, I'm going to do you a solid. Instead of wearing

your blazer or whatever, like slacks, something like that, you can wear jeans, but you have to pay, which sounds super controlling. How much? Five dollars. Five dollars, right? Five dollars. Okay. That is just a power play. That is just a fucking power move. Yep. Oh, definitely.

Oh my God, I cracked up so much because I don't think you even believed what you read. You were just like, no job does that. I was like, this was some hallucination. What is this? This is like fiction. Oh no, that's just our real life, yeah. So that's culty.

That's not just cringe. Culty AF. That's culty. Okay, the next scenario. Teacher, lingo, and adages. For example, remember your why, and a good teacher is like a candle consuming itself to light the way for others. Ah! Oh my God.

That is so culty. So culty. It probably is written on, well, I don't know if like Ray Don does like little sayings like that, but it's kind of like the live, laugh, love, like, or the teacher t-shirts that say they do it for the outcome and not for the income. Oh my God, dude, like, please, please, PSA, listeners, do not underestimate the power of a heavily repeated mantra. Like it will convince you that something is true and profound and worthwhile just because you've heard it so many times and it's so catchy.

That candle saying nightmare fuel. Okay, so cult you're just cringe culty. Yeah, for that definitely culty. Yeah, yeah, cause then like you repeat it over and over again and then you just, you want to believe it. You're just like, okay, so I don't make a million dollars. I know I didn't go into this profession to be a freaking millionaire.

Do it for the outcome, not the outcome. It's for the children. It's for the children. Next scenario. Kulti or just cringe. One teacher for teacher appreciation week, I was given a key chain inscribed with the mantra, may you be proud of the work you do, the person you are and the difference you make. Heart. That is hardcore cringe. I'm trying to think of what correlation it would have for cultie. It's like one of those, like, oh, be grateful for what you have type things or like, oh, I get a little trinket of appreciation. It's so—actually, that got really dark, right? It's just like, oh, I got this little appreciation thing. I should just be thankful

to be here. But I think people who maybe can see through that will just say hardcore cringe, but I could see both for that one. Totally. Two more scenarios. Cultie or just cringe. I had to print out a list of all the acronyms in education during my credential program. I kept it in my binder during class because I had no idea what people were talking about. It was like learning a new language. I seemed to be the only person who really struggled with this, again, because I did not come from a background in education, culty or just cringe. Hmm, the language aspect itself is very culty,

but I think just cringe, but I wouldn't even say cringe for that person. I give them a lot of credit for wanting to do well, quote unquote, but yeah, I'll say cringe for that one. One more culty or just cringe scenario for you. This one goes like this. This school year, our admin was threatening to shorten our lunch period in order to accommodate the growing population of students in our rundown

building. But a lunch period less than 45 minutes goes against our contract. Many teachers pointed that out and some of the veteran teachers started proclaiming that the ones who wanted our contracted time weren't in it for the kids. Culty or just cringe. Fucking cultie as shit. They are withholding basic needs. Basic needs that is adding to the tiredness and the rundownness of their members

so they could just keep on working. Yeah. Yeah, this is what I'm learning is like the excusing away of all this fucked up bullshit with that promise of like, if you don't just toe the line, you're fucking up our future generations and don't care about children. That is so manipulative and kind of like the crux of this cult. Okay, Charlene, we've come to the culty verdict. I have to ask you, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back,

I ask you, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which do you think the cult of teaching falls into? Get the fucking fuckity fuck fuck out. And while you're getting out, continue to get out. And while you're getting out, watch your back. Oh my God. Watch it all the way into freedom. Wait, but you haven't gotten the fuck out. Yeah. So maybe more of like an empowering get the fuck out is if you're in a teaching position where you are kind of like able to leave or try to find something different, try that because

sometimes it just may be a different grade level, maybe a different school district might help. I would know I've bounced around a lot, so there are pros and cons to a lot of them. But I finally found one that it's like, hey, they actually trust me to do my job. And it's just a really nice like working and learning environment. Then yeah, I think I found a unicorn. So you're okay right now. I'm okay right now. But thank God. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I would say get the fucking fuckity fuck fuck out of education as it is in America today. Just how underfunded it is under resourced and how in contrast we're supposed to work miracles and fix the children.

Like that's a get the fuck out. I guess I can't argue with that. Charlene, thank you so much for being a part of this episode and for generously devoting your time to Sounds Like a Cult Today. If people want to keep up with you, where can they find you on the internet? All right. So I'm just a regular people person. My regular people person Instagram is like a combination of my first name and last name

put together, Charlene Lynch, but it is at C-H-A-R-L-Y-N-C-H-921. And fun fact, I'm also in the cult of astrology. So, you know, talk about cult hopping. I actually started a new Instagram called Teaching with the Stars. Reclaiming cultishness. Love that for you. Well, that's the show. Thanks so much for listening.

Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult is hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of the PodCabin. Our theme music is by Casey Cold. This episode was made with production help from Katie Epperson and Brice Oliver. Thank you as well to our partner All Things Comedy. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism,

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