Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of The NFL

Episode Date: November 23, 2021

On theme for Thanksgiving, we've got a bonus episode for you on the "cult" of America's most zealously worshipped, physically hazardous sport: NFL football. One might imagine the typical all-American family spending their Sunday mornings at church followed by a football game, often complete with alcohol-fueled tailgating and rivalrous smack-talking, conformist fan jerseys, and group chants, all of which are certainly "culty" behaviors in a comparatively innocent sense... but does the "cult" of the NFL get darker than that, both for fans and players? This week, we're discussing it all with the help of a very special expert guest, ESPN sports anchor Elle Duncan. Follow us on instagram @soundslikeacultpod, and hosts @isaamedinaa and @amanda_montell.

What I think is so special about football, and certainly what I love, is just this weird ass thing that happens where all of these people who have absolutely nothing in common, except for the same zip code, all come together and for a few hours have an irrational sense of faith and confidence and everything else that goes into being a fan. I mean, it does sound like a cult. This is Sounds Like a Cults, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina, and I'm a comedian. And I'm Amanda Montell, author of the book Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism. This week we've got a special Thanksgiving bonus episode for you on the cult of the NFL, which we'll be discussing to answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult. Is it really? Never in my life did I think I would be talking about football for this long in public. Yeah, I would agree. Same here. We wanted to do a Thanksgiving bonus episode. We landed on the NFL National Football League for those of you who don't know. I barely knew. I went to art school, so I missed that crash course in American culture. We thought that this would be the perfect opportunity to talk about the NFL from a few different angles since, first of all, it has been a widely requested subject. And also because as outsiders, we've, or at least I've always found this dangerous yet zealously worshipped sport pretty culty.

And so we wanted to learn a little bit more about how dangerously culty it really is. So look at it big picture. What are like the two aspects of the NFL? There's the fans and then there's the players. We were like, okay, where does fandom for American football even start? And at birth. Yeah, I feel like I popped out of my mom's womb and there was a Ravens flag just dangling in front of me like, welcome to America, bitch. Yeah. What is it called Pee Wee Football? Parents put their kids in football at like four years old. They put all that gear on them and then they're like toddlers running around passing this tiny little ball. It really is bred into Americans to value football from a very young age. Who's the cool kid in high school? The quarterback. Not in my high school. Again, I went to theater school. The cool kids in my school were like, who's playing pippin? Yeah. I had a very traditional high school experience in that the quarterback was very hot flex. I dated him my freshman year of high school. Oh, well, I must say throughout my life, whenever I've expressed that I'm not that into it, I get these dirty looks as if I'm somehow profoundly unpatriotic,

which I think is cultish red flag number one. Yes. The NFL is this thing that you're not really allowed not to like. Yeah. I got those same looks, but people were a little less surprised because I'm from Colombia. Like we don't watch American football. You had an excuse. So I had an excuse, but you being a very old American girl. Thank you. You're welcome. Wait, why am I taking that as a compliment? God damn it. Because I guess it's associated with like beauty and you are beautiful. I know. Happy Friday. I've been crying all day. So I don't really look that nice right now. You always look nice. Thank you. I'm wearing my dinosaur t-shirt today. You know, I'm glad that we're talking about this subject for this bonus episode because I think it's good that we're problematizing something that is a little bit more masculine leaning than some of the more feminine, fringier topics that we've already covered like Luloro and high level marketing and astrology and Taylor Swift stands.

What is considered irrationally cultish in this culture has so much to do with normativity and who holds power and who controls the cultural narrative, which is not at all objective. So it's really no coincidence that football is considered innately less cultish and more important and patriotic and full of pride than so many of these other interests that women are conditioned to have. I think objectively, the NFL does deserve scrutiny, even though almost everyone in this country participates and accepts it. I think that that means it especially deserves scrutiny. It's just because Ben run the world. I mean, colleges only accepted men at first. Football was the culture around colleges and then it was normalized. It wasn't until the 1920s when the NFL began that all this even became mainstream like Super Bowl parties and fantasy football and tailgating and all those things. Fun, random fact, the NFL was a nonprofit up until like five years ago.

That's funny. Well, nonprofits can actually be very culty in their own ways, but that is another topic for another day. Yes. So let's get right into discussing how culty the NFL truly is. We're going to dive deep. Put on your helmet and your shoulder pads. Yeah. The Super Pan of the Kansas City Chiefs got knocked out cold during the Sunday's game. The scuffle was reportedly over a bottle of water that was thrown. Somebody could die if their head hit the ground. People have died, Sam.

I would. Yeah, at the Dodgers game. The Giants fan. Yeah, the Giants fan got sucker punched by those two guys. I have three kids. I would never take them to a football game. Really? Fastball games, everybody's chilling.

Baseball games kind of chill. Is that true? Football is way more. Football, people are blacked out before they get in there. People are in different uniforms. There's rivalries. I remember when I lived in Miami, people would go to the Jets Dolphins game going there to have a fight. It wasn't about the game. Let's talk about the cultishness of being an NFL fan because obviously it's possible to be a casual fan of football,

to go to Super Bowl parties, to wear your hometown jersey and such. Yeah, you know, you can be a happy spectator. You can go to football games. You can watch football on Thanksgiving. You can even go as far as to wear face paint and costumes and chant at the top of your lungs alongside 30,000 other people. Yes, but I think whenever we're talking about how culty are these groups, is it a live your life, a watch your back or get the fuck out, it's helpful to think, you know, what is the worst case scenario here?

Yeah, and with fans, worst case scenario is violence. There's a lot of violence on the field, but there's violence off the field as well. I came across a bunch of articles talking about how fan violence has become more extreme over the years, and I'm not just talking about fans beating each other up because they're wearing the opposite team's jersey since the pandemic specifically. Now that football is opening back up and people are permitted to go in person, some of the real, like, political divides and ideological schisms surrounding COVID, tension and turmoil that has made our entire culture more cultish,

no matter what community you're talking about, whether it's a yoga studio or an online political forum or football, have caused there to be even more extreme violent conflict among fans in the stands. I came across a sports illustrated piece. This venue management consultant working in the football space said that while in the past, they mostly had to worry about spectator conflict based on team rivalry. Now he said there are a lot of other issues that are becoming this flashpoint for conflict among fans. People are even more inclined to act out their aggression and defend their opinions on everything from the president to mask policies.

There was another expert saying how when we're frustrated, we become more aggressive, combining the drunkenness from tailgating with the competition and the adrenaline, it's just a breeding ground for violence. And because it's such a male-centric sport, I also feel like these dudes were pent up during the pandemic with, like, nowhere to go. It's no coincidence that hostility is sort of baked into the culture of football, considering how much aggression and extreme masculinity is played out on the fields. Yeah, I mean, when the Eagles won the Super Bowl, fans destroyed their city.

They, like, burned their city to the ground. Yeah. And exactly what you're saying about the pent up stuff in this sports illustrated piece, there was a psychology expert who was talking about how because of the pandemic, they're seeing this release of pent up behavior that people are taking out when they go to these sports games. Yeah, and I mean, the thing that concerns me is that people excuse it immediately. They excuse that violent behavior immediately because they're like, oh, they're just guys being guys. For sure, which is a thought terminating cliche.

Those who are familiar with my book will remember this phrase. It's a cult language technique. A thought terminating cliche is basically a stock expression that's easily memorized, easily repeated, and aimed at shutting down independent thinking or questioning. So questioning is the enemy to any cultish group, but thought terminating cliches are also heard in our everyday lives. And boys will be boys or guys will be guys is one of them. And it's the perfect example of a semantic stop sign, if you will, or thought terminating cliche because it helps stop an argument in its tracks. Yeah, it's horrible.

It's just like lets them do whatever they want. They view it as a permission structure for men to like safely take out their aggression. And I think in some contexts it is that, but anything to do with like physical violence already, or verbal, my feelings can get hurt deeply. I know I'm like that people take verbal aggression and harassment and assault so lightly, but it's like that shit can traumatize you for life. Yeah, it's like a long term injury. Yes, seriously.

And therapy is expensive. It is as expensive as medical bills. Yes, it is a medical bill. It is a medical bill. Mental health care is real. Yes. I think another dangerous aspect that comes from the fan base is because it's just a game, fans don't see it as something too serious, but little by little, like we always say it's latching on to different aspects of your life.

You know, it's latching on to your home life to the way you carry yourself physically and verbally with others to your financial life. This cultish mentality fuels gambling addictions. True. And anecdotally, NFL fans in particular I find are some of the most zealous sports fans out there. I think it's because the sport is so tied to tradition, you know, like Thanksgiving and traditional family time that whenever anyone tries to question it or change something about it, that's harmful. Like rethinking the Redskins team name, for example, because it's offensive. Fans sometimes get territorial and single-minded and defensive about it in a way that I personally find pretty cultish.

Yeah, there are these fans that become lifelong fanatics. Like their team is their family. Being a fan of the NFL is one side of the cult. But it's also like on an entirely different spectrum than being a member of the NFL. And we found some really fucked up stories in regard to that as well. It's such a big dream for so many American men. Only six and a half percent of high school football players go on to play in college. And then of those players, only 1.2 percent are drafted to the NFL.

So that contributes to this extreme exclusivity and desirability, which make it harder to question when you get to that top spot. Yeah, you're in this place where you didn't think you were going to be. So you value it so much, but it's also your income. It's your full-time job. So you're attached to it on different levels. Here's a concrete example of how cultish the NFL player experience can be. We found another Sports Illustrated article that was talking about how in 2014,

the NFL was hit with one of many lawsuits where 500 former players accused the league of providing painkillers and other drugs that would allow the players to remain in the game and avoid missing time. But that led to serious complications in life. Yeah, the former NFL linebacker Terry Cruz. He played for the Rams. He played for the San Diego Chargers. He played for a bunch of teams.

He gave this pretty damning interview with Sports Illustrated on the heels of this lawsuit where he called the NFL a cult. He said to them, there is this thing where the team kind of looks at itself as your father. And it's kind of weird because it's like you do this for the team, right? It's really like a cult. I'm going to say it. The NFL is a cult because you've been looking at this motto and this logo for your whole life and you believe in it.

And you're like, they wouldn't do anything to hurt me. They never would. And uh-oh, maybe they would. First and foremost, when you get on the field, you are literally getting hurt. Yes. I don't know. People forgot you're getting hit really hard. And people just accept that because it's a part of this dream.

Again, it's seen as you're doing something good for your country to put yourself in harm's way like this. Yeah. And Terry also said that in the same vein, when you spend your entire life working for a goal, you want to do everything in your power to keep that dream going. And because of that, you might be willing to just follow along whatever people ask you to do. If you believe it'll extend your career. And that's where the players were like taking drugs to just push their injury further down the road. Yeah.

Like when you're training yourself for anything, you take Advil because your quads hurt or something so that you can keep working out, so that you can keep doing it. But you're choosing to do that yourself. You don't have like a higher power. And you know what's in the Advil. You're not being like slipped mystery pills by someone in power over you so that you can continue playing and make people money. Yeah. And he said, quote, he told Sports Illustrated when you give your life over to something like that and give your total trust into something like that, it will always disappoint you.

And I think that really speaks to the cultishness of the NFL. Like he truly was giving his entire trust over to this organization that ultimately didn't care about hurting him in the long term. Yeah. It's like, it's an abusive relationship. Yes. For sure. And I often say that if someone has trouble conceiving of how someone could possibly join a quote unquote cult, they're not getting involved in a toxic one-on-one relationship because that's really just a cult of one.

And that could be with your boss, with a romantic partner, with a friend, with your coach. Yeah. I mean, this really comes as no surprise. The pushing along of the injuries is ultimately what leads to like these long term injuries like CTE, which is like a really chronic brain injury. I mean, chronic brain injuries are no joke. Like not to make a joke out of it. But I think it's so ironic that in high school, we were always like, oh, the quarterback is so dumb. And it's like, maybe it wasn't his fault.

Maybe he like just had a brain injury. And I've had high key three concussions. Why? From snowboarding? Oh my God. I've lived my entire life avoiding. I don't fucking ski. I don't do anything that could possibly cause me to fall down.

Fun fact, my biggest fear in life is not public speaking, clearly not death. None of that. It's falling down because I'm so fucking unathletic. It is so embarrassing to me to fall down. Yeah. Amanda like doesn't leave the house because she's scared of like hitting a wall. I don't want it to traumatize my brain. I on the other hand, don't know if you could tell have been dropped and also I've also dropped babies.

I'm not gonna lie. She's a dropper. I'm a dropper on both on both ends. But would you drop your baby on purpose if it meant they were going to become a famous athlete? Oh hell no. Because athletes aren't the cool kids anymore. Nerds are. So I'm not going to like ruin my kids brain by putting him in football.

I'm going to ruin my kids eyes by putting him in coding camp. Okay. I'm investing in our future and they're going to make the next Facebook code away bitch. So as always, nothing is what it seems. You might think that sustaining a lifelong potentially fatal brain injury is as bad as it could get. But baby, we went deeper and it gets worse. It gets worse? Yes.

So get this. I found yet another sports illustrated article describing how there are a number of former NFL players who have been systematically recruited to this Christian drive sect called straight way straight way sexually suspicious. I know. So the way that the piece was talking about it is that when the like sense of structure and guidance and meaning and purpose that comes with life as an NFL player suddenly vanishes, it's often really jarring and can yield a search for your next thing your next identity, your next identity and some of these former NFL players have filled that void by becoming a member of the straight way truth ministry, which is a group that the former Packers star Kabir Baja Bia Miller, aka KBG most famously gave his life too. It kind of reminds me of Anthony Bourdain. He was like a heroin addict and then he replaced his heroin addiction with cooking dude and traveling. So a lot of addicts just replace like one thing with another.

Oh, it's so true. You find this pattern with addiction. You find this pattern with cults. You find this pattern with toxic relationships. You go from one to the other. And hopefully the next thing you replace your former cult affiliation with is less destructive, but sometimes it's worse. Like in this case, like in this case. So the former Packers star and a bunch of other ex NFL players became obsessive worshipers of straight ways leader.

This guy named Pastor Charles Dowell, who has been accused of so many things, including creating this extremely controlling environment of dogmatic adherence to the Old Testament, limiting members interactions with the outside world. Old Testament is sus. So sus. But in terms of straight way, there have been allegations of just the most fucked up abuse toward women and children. Homophobia, lack of access to health care because they think that their God heals all instances of like anti vaxxers. A lot of cults implant the same extreme mistrust of mainstream health care. There have been instances of these really hostile recruitment strategies where they'll poach teenagers against their families wishes to be a member of the group. They encourage members who move to a straight way chapter, which is their term for a physical compound to believe in flat earth and five G COVID conspiracy theories to doomsday prep to be trained to use AR 15 weapons.

And they're also required to donate all of their savings and possessions to the ministry. So leaving becomes almost impossible. Amanda. This sounds fucked up. It's so fucked up. And that person dowel appeals to X NFL players because these men come from these like macho worlds and are attracted to an environment that gives them meaning and coaches them in that same way. It has that figure at the top. For sure.

He he projects this sort of hyper masculine Christian authority that really appeals to them. And that person dowel is also like actively recruiting them. He has over 5000 YouTube videos. He uses search optimization tactics to recruit as many people as possible. And in these videos, he acts like an NFL coach in the way he explains his beliefs. So of course, these players are going to be attracted to it. It's just so manipulative to use like YouTube's algorithm to get people to follow you for this God complex because you didn't get enough attention as a child. And the way that he manipulates the algorithm is especially Machiavellian.

Do you want to talk about it? Yeah, he uses YouTube's algorithm to hide any scrutiny of the group. So they'll upload videos called exposing pastor dowel and the straightaway cult. But then they end up actually just being testimonials praising him. They know you're trying to look up whether it's a cult or not. They're just trying to make it so that criticism of the group is essentially impossible to find. I think the fact that it appeals to former NFL players really reflects something about the culture of the NFL itself. Because like you're saying, it commandeers so much of these players lives that when they leave, they're left feeling so empty that a group like this, which is super destructive, can sweep in and take over.

So in a moment, we're going to get some expert insight on the cult of the NFL from a special guest, L Duncan. L is an ESPN sports anchor who really helped us understand how cult-y football can be. Here's L. Let's just launch right into it. First of all, hello. Thank you so much for being here and sounds like a cult. Absolutely. I'm so pumped. This is awesome. First for our lovely culties, as our loyal listeners are called. Could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do? Yes. My name is L Duncan, and I am a sports center anchor on ESPN, and I also am a contributor on Around the Horn. I do a show on digital called Debatable. I have a podcast as well, and I just do a lot of sports stuff. I talk sports. Oh, yeah. And that's why you're here. Yes. Because we need you to understand today's topic.

So we'd love to know what is your personal relationship with NFL football? How did you first get into it? How would you describe your relationship with the NFL or football now? So my family is originally from Denver, Colorado, and the Broncos have been like an inherited part of my family. Like, we wheeled down tickets through the generations because if you lose your season tickets in Denver, it could be another 40 years before you're eligible to get them again. So that's where it started. I mean, literally, my family has always sort of had this love slash obsession with NFL football specifically. When I was young, I cheerleaded. I tried to do anything I could to be near the game because I wasn't playing the game. Girls back then did not play football, but I certainly loved it. Yeah. So what did it sort of mean to you? Because obviously football is so much more than a game or a sport to so many.

What do you think made it so important to you fundamentally? I think that at first it was because it was so synonymous with my family being happy, right? Like, there's this ritual when it comes to Sundays and the NFL and this sort of rhythm that happens in that day that only happens on that day. So when I was young, I just associated football with, like, my parents at their peak joy, you know? And as I got older and started going to games, then of course started, like, working around sports. I realized what I think is so special about football and certainly what I love and what endures is just this weird-ass thing that happens where all of these people who have absolutely nothing in common, except for the same zip code or region or, you know, alliance to some name or university, we all come together. And for a few hours, we just have this common interest and that is to have an irrational sense of faith and sadness and confidence and everything else that goes into being a fan.

And I don't know, I just find that to be really interesting that you don't know these people, but you're all together in this fight together, even though you have nothing to do with it. The whole thing is bananas. I get it, Amanda. It's bad shit crazy. It's funny. When you reached out, I was like, yeah, I mean, it does sound like a coal. It's kind of nuts. But I do. I love the fact that, especially right now, we're living in a time where it's pretty divisive, right? But still, there is this element to going to a game together and being all in together and knowing that we'll go our separate ways at the game's conclusion. But just when you're there and for that moment, it's just the great equalizer. It's the great galvanizer. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah, I guess we weren't thinking so much about the truly positive sides of being in the cult of the NFL. I mean, I grew up like not the sportiest family in the world. I mean, we watched the Ravens. I'm from Baltimore. And I still felt like, you know, I am human. I have a pulse. So I felt the energy in the room and everybody was watching football together and stuff like that.

But you're completely right. And I make this argument all the time that a quote unquote cult doesn't necessarily have to be all bad. Like we crave those rituals and that connection that this type of environment can provide and sports in comparison to a lot of other groups is, you know, it gets worse. Yes, yes. So then I'm so curious how you managed to transition your childhood love of football and sports to a professional career. Yeah, I'm so glad that I do it for a living, but it becomes very different. You know, now it's work. I used to watch the games just for storylines on my own or just interest level or because I loved the team or I loved a particular player. And now I watch it for what's going to be the big talker tomorrow. You know, statistically, what does this mean? I sort of see it differently now. I see both sides of it now. Now that I'm sort of on the outside of the fandom, I'm still firmly in it, but I'm on the outside.

And now I understand sort of what makes the engine go. And so it's an interesting perspective that I've gained over the course of the last 15 years I've been doing this. Well, that seems pretty healthy. And I feel like I take that position a lot of the time to with regard to like culty things that I might participate in, but also observe like as a journalist and a podcaster. It keeps you skeptical, but also doesn't like ruin it. Yes, exactly. So, you know, especially NFL football is like such a male centric sport and culture. Did you find it to be welcoming? I sort of had the fortune of starting in a place like Atlanta where they care about sports, but it's also very entertainment based. And that sort of was where I was able to lean as I was finding my footing. And I moved to Boston, which of course is the opposite of that. Like if you don't know your sports, they are giving you shit nonstop forever.

And I think that it was for me, it wasn't necessarily that it wasn't welcoming. It was just more about having to prove yourself. And I don't know that it was just because I was a woman. I don't know that it was because I was a black woman. There's not a lot of us in the media there. I think it was more that it was like, you know, we hold our sports people to a certain standard. Like sports is life in Boston. I mean, I will never forget. I'm living in Boston. The Patriots had just played like a random game. You know, they're like 10 and one, they're headed to another Super Bowl. Everybody knows it. And I'm watching the news and they're like, also, there is a five alarm fire at an apartment building in Eastie. They're like, we've got the latest. But first, we start with the biggest news of the night. Rob Gronkowski hurts his knee. What does it mean for that? And I was like, this is more important than like an entire building on fire. What are you talking about?

It was nuts. So they, when I tell you they care about their sports, I mean, you could do a whole entire, a whole entire episode of Boston alone. But I think that with sports, it is, there's certainly an element of having to prove yourself, especially when you're a woman. But I think that the most important thing for young women to do is that they just own it. Okay, I never played football. So what? Like, I can still talk about it and love it and be passionate about it. I think it's great to sort of see these women just being bold and saying, I don't have anything to prove to anybody. I love this sport and I have a, I have a place to talk about it. I also love the way that you talk about it as storytelling, because, you know, that's relatable for me. You know, you watch the game and these are like characters with storylines and arcs and dynamics.

There's so much soap opera that happens in the NFL. And I'm super petty. I, you know, I love being petty. I am. I'm Petty LaBelle. When it comes to things like this, because it should be fun and entertaining and, you know, who's left with who comes into play. I mean, girl, you should see some of the storylines when it comes to football. It's great. It's so funny because we also did an episode on the cult of the bachelor. And frankly, I'm seeing some similarities. Oh yeah. There's a lot of crossover there as well. I'm telling you. I'm the fan. So we've talked about how the NFL fans can be culty in both lighthearted ways and slightly scary ways. But what do you think is the cultiest thing you've ever heard of an intense NFL fan doing? Oh my God. Well, I, so, okay, so I've actually experienced some really intense fandom that was like, you guys, this is too much.

It was the Monday night football game down in New Orleans, Saints versus Falcons for your listeners. These two cities and teams are bitter rivals. They don't like each other at all. So this is just after Hurricane Katrina and it's in New Orleans and they're reopening the Superdome. And there was already going to be a ton of animosity. And I remember that they highlighted a group of kids from Atlanta who had come down a few days early and had helped rebuild and restore playground in the fifth ward that had been damaged by Hurricane Katrina. And I remember them showing these kids who couldn't have been, you know, eight, nine, 10, 11 years old. And they just start booing because they're wearing falcons to the whole arena.

Imagine being seven, eight years old and like the arena is booing you. And I knew right then I was like, oh, this is the kind of energy that is going to go from like pride of city. You know, just like so much joy that we are here and we made it. And you know, which would have been the right and appropriate thing for that night. And it just turned not with all the fans, but with some fans into something really nasty. I saw them a beer on a pregnant woman as she walked through like the tunnel, you know, just to go to the bathroom. Like they dumped a beer on her head. And I had a man that was being like incredibly aggressive and screaming in my face.

And this is all because we were wearing falcons jerseys. And again, like this is a rivalry that had been years in the making. And I understood that, but it felt like they just took it entirely too far. You know, it felt like, again, sort of that mob mentality where you saw one person. It was like a, it was like permission to be bad. And it was really scary to the point where I left and was like running, like, like looking for a petty cab or somewhere. Just to sort of get away from, from all of that energy. It was misplaced energy, I think.

Totally. That makes a lot of sense. Like, I mean, my family is from New Orleans and I remember the uncertainty and the chaos that was felt in that city after Hurricane Katrina. And we were reading some articles in sports illustrated about how there's like a lot of over the top fan hostility now. Like in the wake of the pandemic that reminds me of some of what you're talking about. And like, listen, let's not, you know, give a pass on, on prior fans. We've seen bad fan behavior because alcohol is a huge component of these things, right? So that's, we're always going to see that.

But to see how fans have been acting lately over the last, you know, 12 or so months that they've been, you know, loud back into stadiums and arena has been so disgusting and discouraging. I just can't believe all the things that I loved that I said that I loved about sports, with this gathering and this understanding that like, we're going to talk some shit, but we're never going to go too far. It just feels like we've, we've turned that tide and that's not where we're at anymore. And now we're doing this level of tribalism that we're sort of seeing in every facet of our life has really started to root itself in sports as well. And it's a very unhealthy, you know, sort of love of your sport. And it starts to embody something very different than just, you know, loving a team that you've always loved because you're from that city.

So it's, it's sad to see because being around each other at a sporting event used to be, in my opinion, just one of those really incredible hair raising moments. If you love sports and now it's turning into, you know, head on a swivel, trying to avoid confrontation type of thing. For sure. Yeah. I think the culture of how it feels to be in a stadium will probably fluctuate depending on the larger culture. And right now we're in a weird ass, culty ass time. Yes, yes, yes we are.

We've also talked about how the NFL, like the league itself can be culty in the way that it treats players sometimes. What do you think players can actually do when they experience something maybe a little bit sketchy or an imbalance in power structure? Do they have any leverage? Yeah, so there is a lot of conflict of interest when it comes to the power structure of the NFL. I mean, the NFL has 32 teams, but 31 owners because the Green Bay Packers are owned by the city of Green Bay. So they're the only team that's publicly owned. They don't have one true owner, but they have like a chairman. So a babysitter, someone that runs the team, but is not an owner.

So the 31 owners, you know, basically employ the commissioner. And in this case, his name is Roger Caddell, who, you know, controversially makes between 40 and $60 million a year depending on the report that you believe. And that's because, you know, he is supposed to be the commissioner of the NFL, right? But he essentially works for the owners and his main job is to make sure that they continue to profit so that they can sell the rights every 10 years and make billions and billions of dollars. So the NFLPA, which is the Players Association, that is supposed to, it's a union, right? It's supposed to exist to be the protection of the players themselves. The concerns that players often have is that the people who run it, typically a lawyer in this case, a man named Demory Smith, who did used to play back in the day, turned lawyer, now runs that they feel like it is a conflict of interest in that the NFLPA acquiesce too much to ownership. We just dealt with a CBA that was not popular with many NFL players because they felt like they gave up too much.

They went from a 16 game schedule to a 17 game schedule and they felt like they weren't getting compensated enough to add an additional game. Football is hard as hell on your body, right? Like, you're just adding games that needs to make sure that players feel compensated for that. The problem is that everyone knows that it all starts at the top with the ownership. I mean, they own everything. They are the ones that stir the drink. They're the straw. And essentially, they're the cup too.

So when you're the liquid, where do you go? If they can control removing you or holding you. And so I think that we're starting to see more player empowerment. We definitely see it in the NBA more than we see it in the NFL because you would think the opposite. There's not strengthened numbers when it comes to the NFL, right? There's 53 people on a team. It's much more of an impact if an NBA team says, I'm sitting this game out tonight, right? You've got 11 players.

That impacts you significantly. So we're starting to see them own more of their power and that has been very concerning. I mean, we're seeing the NFL under fire right now for essentially, you know, saying they are not going to release any findings from an investigation surrounding the Washington football team and the history of misogyny and sexual harassment there. And seemingly they're protecting someone. But it's like, but who's going to hold them accountable? Roger Godelli works for the owners.

Why would the owners and their best interest want to see negative things come out about the league? So again, it's just sort of like this cycle. And I think for NFL players, it is. The Players Association, just like it is for most of us workers, you know, that don't own the companies that aren't the billionaires. We have unions and we always have issues and concerns there, but it's about the only way to have a seat at the table is to exercise that right. And I think that's what's frustrating for some NFL players is that people bitch afterwards about the collective bargaining agreements,

but they don't feel like there's as much participation in the process leading up to it. Wow. Thank you for that incredibly thorough and succinct explanation. Appreciate it. So last question. What do you think is the cultiest ritual that goes on among the players or teams in the NFL? Does it have to be NFL? No, it can just be football in general. Okay. So by far to me, I'm going to go college because college, they love their traditions and rituals. I mean, it's so ritualistic, but Clemson does this thing.

They call it Howard's Rock and the team like he gathers and you run down this hill and they rub this rock because supposedly it has mystical powers that it specifically gives to Clemson players to help them with the game. Everybody like surrounds it. It's like a whole ritual. I'm telling you, it's nuts. I mean, it's great, but it's also really fun when you're there. You're like, okay, you get into it. You're like, they're rubbing a rock. This is bananas. It's like really bad shit crazy actually, but they believe that, you know, and I've been dumb enough to do some dumb things too. So I get it. Fully. Cults are fun. College is fun. You put the two together and it's like, what's not to like?

Exactly. Okay. So now we're going to play a quick game. This is a game we commonly play on our podcast. It is called culty quotes. It's very simple. It's basically a game of who said that. Okay. So we're going to read you a series of quotes and you're going to have to guess whether this quote was said by an NFL coach or an infamous cult leader. Okay. Oh my God. Amazing. Okay. Round number one, the quote is humans can be noble. The question is, will we put forth what is necessary?

Oh, that sounds like an NFL coach. That is Keith Ranieri, the leader of Nexium. Oh my goodness. Oh, he's the worst. Oh, I saw the documentary. Wow. That's bad. Yeah. Yeah. The vowel. Oh yeah. That just goes to show how similar the That's coach speak. I mean, to a team. Yeah. Well, I think that's what Keith Ranieri was going for.

All right. Quote number two, the quote is, are you making life or is life making you? Oh my God. This also sounds like something that a coach would say. I'm going to go, I'm going to go coach. That was Elron Hubbard, founder of Scientology. No. If he would have said something about planets, I would have known, but wow. Yeah. No, these are hard. These are challenging. Yeah. Oh wow. We're going to do one more. The quote is, the superior man blames himself. The inferior man blames others. Oh God. This feels like something that like someone gets tatted when they're drunk in Panama City Beach and that they saw it somewhere.

That's not specific. Exactly. I have been there a couple of times. Okay. In the interest of like at some point, maybe just being right about a coach, a coach. You are right this time. Yes. That's a quote from Don Shula of the Baltimore Colts Miami Dolphins. Yes. That's insane. They really sound very similar. Thank you for how enlightening that was. Now I'm going to listen to these press conferences and be like, does that sound culty? Thank you, ladies. Well, it's not necessarily bad, but it's worth noting. Oh, thank you so much for being on our podcast and doing this interview and playing our game. If someone wants to keep up with you and your work, where can they find you? Yes. You can follow me at El Duncan ESPN on Twitter and El Duncan on IG or TikTok.

And you can see me 6 p.m. Eastern Monday through Friday on the 6 p.m. Sports Center, you know, randomly, and around the Horn Nother South. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. So out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back and get the fuck out. What do you think the cult of the NFL falls into? For the fan base, I think it is a live your life. Yeah, I'm going easy on them. Randomly going easy on men. Okay, maybe the patriarchy has gotten to me. No, I actually respect that conclusion and a spoiler alert was going to draw the same one. You are?

Well, I have some reasons for that. But what do you think the cult of the players would be? I think the cult of the players is a watch your back leaning, get the fuck out. I'm completely on the same page as you. You know, when I was researching my book, I talked to this guy named Stephen Hassan, who's like the foremost cult expert. He's a former Mooney and a mental health counselor. And he described to me this influence continuum representing groups from healthy and constructive to unhealthy and destructive. And he mentioned that one of the major differences between an ethical group and an unethical group is that in an ethical group, leaving comes with few, if any, serious consequences. So he literally named sports fans as an ethical group. He was like, if you decide, oh, I'm not into football anymore. Yeah, maybe you won't go to the tailgating parties or you won't hang out with your sports fans friends as much, but you're not.

You're not ostracized. Right. The other people won't threaten you. You won't have a rational fears that you'll go insane or be possessed by demons. And while it is absolutely true that the stakes for an NFL player or a fan are not as high as they might be in a cult like straight way, there's still exploitation. There's still physical violence both on and off the field. Yeah, I feel like it borders on sensational to call it a get the fuck out. But I do think considering how much freedom fans have to stop their participation, I'd call that a live your life. And yes, I'd call the league itself a watch your back. I will say one of the reasons I did decide it was a watch your back is because there has been so much more awareness around the long term health issues with playing football.

And I think a lot of football players today go into the profession knowing the negative sides, but they still go into it. It's true. That's true. They still go into it because because at the end of the day when they go into it, they've already been playing it for 10 or 15 years. Oh, yeah, the sunk cost fallacy goes into play. They're like, I've already been playing it for this long. This is my passion. This is my this is my sense of hope. Yeah, a lot of people.

It's like their ticket out of, you know, poverty or anonymity. But with this awareness comes a sense of watching your back. And I do think that's why lawsuits like the one that we mentioned about the drugs that these guys were being slipped are also really important because they do encourage that sense of skepticism. Like you do have a choice when you go to play in the NFL. You don't have to take everything as a given. We've said it before anything legitimate will stand up to scrutiny and hopefully the NFL is amenable to that. That being said, with awareness and all this scrutiny, studies have found that in the past few years, enrollment in football has only decreased by 5% for kids for kids. Yeah.

So that just goes to show how deeply ingrained the value of this sport is embedded in our culture. Yeah, that I watch football at the Super Bowl party because there's really good dips and that's what you should do. The cult of dips, the cult of chicken buffalo dip. The cult of nachos. That shit is so good. Like when I moved to America, I was like, holy shit. That is the American dream. Yeah.

Well, that's our show. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult soon. In the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds like a cult was created, produced and edited by Amanda Montell and Issa Medina. Our theme music is by Casey Colb. Our sound engineer is Kyle Seglin.

This episode was made with production help by Patrick Rice. And if you liked this episode, feel free to give us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to follow us at SoundsLikeACultPod and me, Issa, at Issa Medina, I-S-A-A-M-E-D-I-N-A-A. And Amanda at Amanda Underscore Montell with 2Ls.