Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of The Real Housewives

Episode Date: April 4, 2023

Fame, wealth, fraud, backstabbing, plastic surgery, hidden power hierarchies... are we talking about one of reality television's most successful franchises or a full-blown cult??? Host of the Reality Life podcast Kate Casey, an unscripted TV connoisseur who's been analyzing The Real Housewives for years, joins Isa and Amanda this week to unpack the inner workings and potential damage of this notoriously clique-y "cult." To support Sounds Like A Cult on Patreon, keep up with our live show dates, see Isa's live comedy, buy a copy of Amanda's book Cultish, or visit our website, click here! Thank you to our sponsors! Get 20% off your first Liquid Death apparel purchase available exclusively at LiquidDeath.com/CULT. Get $20 off your fertility test when you go to ModernFertility.com/CULT. Visit BetterHelp.com/CULT today to get 10% off your first month. Download SmartNews for free today in the app store to get the news that matters most.

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The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable facts. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. You show up and you're wearing khakis and you drive a minivan and you've got four kids and then a season later you have hair extensions, veneers, you're on Osempic, you have a lease for a car that you can't afford, you're renting a house that you can't afford, you're wearing counterfeit clothes, you've completely lost the values that you've held deep to fit into

what the cult is telling you is success. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Issa Medina and I'm a comedian performing weekly in Los Angeles. And I'm Amanda Montell, author of a book called Cultish. Every week on our show we discuss a different group or guru from The Zeitgeist, from Taylor Swift Stans to Disney adults to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? Wow, I've been waiting for this one.

Hi, I'm Josh from Toronto and I think the cultiest thing about The Real Housewives is the intense knowledge you need to know about these women. And if you're on the outside, you have no idea who any of these women are. And once you're inside, you know detailed things about these women's lives and you can talk to another person in that world and they know exactly the same things that you do about that person. Hi, Sounds Like a Cult, I'm Vanessa from Montreal in Canada. I would say the cultiest thing about The Real Housewives is how it makes the audience somehow

feel for these people who are actually living in a completely different reality and who ultimately look at us as viewers, as customers and really are just trying to sell something to you through their Instagram stories at the end of the day. Hi, my name is Jess and I am from Brooklyn and I think the cultiest thing about The Real Housewives franchise other than the obvious glorification of women fighting is the parasocial relationships that we build with these people and their families, which I feel like you could say about so many cults. But especially since we're brought into these people's homes, we're meant to feel like we

know them and now I follow their kids on Instagram and all that sort of stuff is just weird. Cult 49, 268, maybe that's all we need. Whatever your singing sounds very soulful, I was just transported to like a train yard in the 40s. Cult 45 and 268, maybe that's all we need. We can go to the park after dark, smoke that tumbleweed, as the marijuana burn we can take our turn singing that dirty rap song. Do we have to license this?

We've been talking about how cult is spelled C-U-L-T, but when we say the word so much, I always think cult like C-O-L-T. But I don't know what a cult is like. It's a baby horse. Oh, yeah. I know more so like cult 45, like the beer. That's a firearm. Oh, I thought it was a beer.

Cult. Oh, it's a cigar and it is a pistol as well. Yeah. But with the Afro Man song, I think it's referring to the malt liquor because it's like a cult 45 and two zigzags, a beer and some jays. That's all we need. We can go to the park and sing the rap song like now. This is how you know that we've recorded too many episodes of sounds like a cult in a row

because what is the word cult even mean? It means beer in my mind. It means a beer, a cigar, a pistol, and a fanatical group that may or may not be deadly. Yeah. Okay. And we did it. We sang songs. It's like a karaoke moment.

Speaking of big moments, we had some big moments in recent history. We won a fucking iHeartRadio podcast award. No one even told us we won it, but we did win their best emerging podcast of 2022 award AO. Yeah. And it's like, I would have loved to give a speech. It's all I do in the shower. Why didn't anyone tell me that we won?

I've been writing speeches since I was seven years old. How many opportunities do you get in your life to like win a fucking big award and give a speech? If someone at iHeartRadio wants to like let us do a redo, that would be appreciated. Yeah. And then we were also in the New York Times, which is fun and random. And I was with a friend who works at the New York Times the other day and I was like, did you recommend us?

And he was like, no, you need to give yourself more credit. And I was like, that's nice. Yeah. No, this was not rigged. This was organic. As they say, we were like in a roundup of the best cult podcast happening right now, but little brag moment if you don't mind. And they called me a comedian in the New York Times.

So now I'm formally a comedian, which is cool. That's actually really exciting. That's legit as fuck. When the New York Times christens you, baptizes you, if you will. Exactly. As the thing you want to be, then like, no one can deny you. No one can take it away from me. Absolutely not.

But this week, you know what you can take away? Commercials. When you watch Real Housewives without commercials. How can you do that? I only watch the Real Housewives when I'm in a hotel watching hotel TV, which don't fight me is better than regular cable. When you watch it at a hotel robe, come on. I got into Real Housewives late in the game.

So the reason I'm able to watch it without commercials is I'm watching like seasons one through four right now, you know, and so I'm watching them streamed online and then it's actually great, but it's actually bad because I'm like binging it and there's so many seasons. I could stay inside for a full year and like not see the daylight. That's what they want. Oh my God. You're going to become like a Real Housewives prepper in a bunker, just like mass consuming the Real Housewives and forgetting to like socialize or engage with real life.

I have barely watched the Real Housewives franchise, but the way that our guest breaks down the power dynamics as a cult fan, I found it fascinating because talking to someone who's such an expert in the ins and outs of how the show operates, I thought was fascinating even though I don't really watch the show. So we did record this episode with a very well researched guest and so I feel like the episode got really insider baseball in a lot of ways, which is so interesting for our listeners of the show. Sometimes we don't get so analytical, but I think it's a really fun one.

So we did want to do like a little recap of what is the Real Housewives if you don't know. We always just want to give some background for everyone who like might not be a fan of something that we're covering and how long has it been around for? I mean, how many seasons are there, Amanda, like how many different spinoffs? So fucking many. It first launched in 2006 with the Real Housewives of Orange County and basically it was supposed to be the reality show version of a soap opera. It was really inspired by Desperate Housewives and it was basically supposed to chronicle

the lives of these rich women who live these glamorous lives, live in Southern California and super expensive houses and it was supposed to be kind of casual and voyeuristic and ever since then it's exploded and now there are 11 different series in the United States, another 21 international adaptations and spinoffs up the fucking wazoo, 27 of them actually. Yeah. I mean, we all know like Real Housewives of Orange County, New York City, New Jersey, Atlanta. But there's also been Real Housewives of D.C., Miami, Potomac, I mean, like, why was

there a Real Housewives of Potomac? I don't fucking know. Salt Lake City, we know that one obviously because Mormon vibes. I think it's the cultiest franchise. There was Real Housewives of Dubai. I mean, there's just so many housewives but it is ultimately just a reality TV show but it has seeped its gritty little diamond studded teeth into our skin. Oh, okay evocative image there, Issa, go off.

But I think the Real Housewives also provides like a whole universe to like lose yourself into and it's always the same sort of like cathartic drama that you can kind of like switch off and dissociate to. And I think over the past like whatever 15 years since the Housewives premiered like our craving for that type of television has only gotten stronger. Yeah, but I feel like even though our craving has gotten stronger, I don't think that the show has gotten better by any means because it's such a huge production now that you almost don't get that raw sensation of like following around a Real Housewife.

And that's why the earlier seasons in my opinion are the better seasons because it's like you're getting the organic villains and the organic heroes of the story and like all the characters are coming out naturally whereas like now they get cast as the villain. And as we'll learn from our guests, they also cast themselves because people who have it in them to become a Real Housewife want to like fall into that mold. It is like a career that you can have now to be a Real Housewife, which is uncanny and scary. Yeah, but it's one of those careers that like very many cults kind of take many years to

finally start monetizing because again, as we'll discuss with our guest shortly, you are investing a lot of money into looking rich and seeming presentable for the show. And only if you are in the show for several seasons do you start seeing like a return on your investment. The show has been on for so long and has such a cult following that now there are people like our guests today who are making their living commenting on the Real Housewives. Or like there are influencers and podcasts who like give their hot takes to the Real Housewives and now that's spun off into its own kind of career.

I'm telling you cinematic universe. Yeah, but I don't think we should be very critical of those people. I mean, we give our commentary on cults. Oh, I'm not. I'm saying that like it has become such a culture. Like it's really filling something for people that's beyond just like a bunch of women fighting on TV. We're covering the Real Housewives because there is everything culty you want to hear

about there is wealth, fraud, backstabbing, plastic surgery, power dynamics. And we're going to get into it with our very, very special guest, Kate Casey. When I tell you she knows everything about unscripted and reality TV, we are not kidding and we are so excited to dive into this subject matter with her because she really takes it apart and gives you a good look inside the franchise. Kate Casey is the host of the reality life podcast, which is all about unscripted TV. So here's our conversation. Do you mind introducing yourself and your work to our listeners?

I host a podcast called Reality Life with Kate Casey, which I started six years ago. I went to a network and I said, I have an idea for a podcast. I want to track down people who had been on reality shows like The Bachelor or Real World and see how it changed the trajectory of their life. And then over time, it's expanded to everything under the unscripted umbrella. So four times a week, I interview the people that are featured or who create reality shows, documentaries, and docu-series. Everything from competitive reality show to documentaries about cults.

I've done so many interviews about cults, people that have been in cults, people that create documentaries about cults. I also give everybody a list every week on Mondays of what to watch in unscripted TV. So I basically call from all the different networks and find the most interesting things in unscripted television, unscripted being real people, real stories. So everything from a sports docu-series to a true crime documentary to a reality show about romance. Cool.

So, yeah. So I do that. I've been doing that for about six years. Previous to that, I worked in crisis media litigation for global law firms and I know you're like, huh? No, that's so necessary. We've been in crisis media. We should have hired you.

Objection. So, like if a law firm has a client that's in this like epic lawsuit, I'd give media strategy or if they're being sued, I'd give media strategy and also creating media opportunities for lawyers. So I just feel like I've always been somebody that's interviewing people. So it's kind of fun because I get to watch real people, real stories and then ask the questions that you're all kind of thinking about when you watch it. So you are the perfect person to interview for this episode.

What is your connection, personal and professional to the quote unquote cult of the real housewives? So I have been recapping and watching from the very beginning of real housewives and I've interviewed so many. I've interviewed the creators, the executive producers and really have just studied it for so long. Wow. Are you okay? You are a real housewife anthropologist.

Correct. Wow. I went to college with the daughter of Ramona. Well, it's just a numbers game. There are so many real housewives. Eventually you'll go to school with one of their kids. I know, right? I didn't even try to.

What was her reputation like because her mom's bonkers? Well, I feel like some of our friends might be listening to the podcast. Honestly, not bad, generally kind, but rich. Didn't her mom come to frat parties? Yeah. Well, at UVA we had these things called parents formals where you go to a formal, it's almost like a wedding where you dress up in literal tuxedos and gowns with your parents and you invite a date and then you all go out together and it's at a country club or something like

that. And before you go, you like pregame in your shitty college dorm room. With your parents in the tuxedo and the ball gowns. Yeah, exactly. And so it probably was one of those events. I think I read a blind item that she made out with somebody who was like a college student. I don't know if it's true, but if it was true, I would believe it. I cannot deny or confirm, but parents would also go to like game day pregames, you know,

like fraternities would have parties in the daytime before like a football game and parents would go and she definitely probably went to one of those. Traditional college campuses, man, the behavior you can get away with under the guise of tradition. And all this is happening at like 1030 in the morning. I can't drink before noon. I'm Irish and went to a college with all Irish girls like we would drink early. I feel like I maxed out on drinking at like 22. Yeah.

I had my fill. I did it my first year of college because it's like you're a freshman, you're like, this is what you do. And after that, I was like, oh, you mean I don't have to do this? Yeah. I cannot do it anymore. Off the bat, what about the Real Housewives franchise do you think is more culty than the average reality show in your opinion?

First let me say this. I not only have been a student, if you will, of the Real Housewives for many, many years, but I've also been a student of cults. And I've interviewed people that are in Nexium, former FLDS, like you think of the cult, I've covered it. So I feel like what I know to be true is that there is very much a cult like behavior system that exists in the Real Housewives. I would also argue in the bachelor space between the way that the cast operate as their own

cults and then the fandom is an extension of that. And one could even argue there's like a hierarchy within the fandom of the Real Housewives. So like the show Mean Girls, if you remember that movie, it was based on a book Queen Bees and wannabes written in 2002, which is like an absolute must read. And it was written by a teacher who wrote about cliques in girls in schools and she had different archetypes for mean girls. And this totally applies to the way Real Housewives exists within their franchise. So if we take New York, Beverly Hills, any of these shows, there is a system within the

show based on these archetypes. So these archetypes are number one, the Queen Bee. So they're the one who has the most power. They rule on fear. Then they have the sidekick. The sidekick's power is derived from the Queen Bee. However, if you get sidekick on their own, they're a totally different person. Then you have the banker.

That's the person that hoards all the gossip and information. Sometimes they use that to their advantage. Sometimes they use that to sabotage people. Then you have the floater. Floaters are people that aren't really suction cupped onto one person in particular. They kind of float around, which sometimes can make them powerful because they're not always beholden to the Queen Bee. Then you have the bystander or the torn bystander who's always conflicted.

It's like they can't really latch themselves onto anybody and it's different from the floater because it's more based on their own insecurity. These are so applicable. Like I can't have my allegiance to one person because if I do and then on Thursday, they find out and then they're mad at me and then I'm socially destroyed forever. Then you have the wannabe, who is the person who's just desperately trying to fit in and to latch onto somebody. The Beverly Hills one, that blonde girl.

What's her name? She's like Sutton. She's like a wannabe. She was the younger one, right? There are so many of them, but Sutton is more of a recent one and she's kind of a wannabe. She wants to be diabolical, but she's from the South and I don't know if she has it in her, but she's just sort of looks kind of like in the background, like latching onto something that doesn't exist.

And then the last archetype is the target and the target is the person who is the weakest link and those who have the higher ranking powers, they prey on the weakness of the target and the target can also change. So on Real Housewives season one, the target may be somebody, but it'll be completely different target season two. So within the franchises, you have that structure and then that trickles down into the fandom and the way if there's a queen bee, it's been set by maybe producers decide like this is the strongest character and they're going to set the tone.

They're typically somebody that the producer is like working in tandem with. So we're Tamara Judge or Kyle where it's like, can you help me set up a scene? So they're typically the queen bee. So all the people who exist on the show want to be in their good graces because they have so much power. They're essentially like co-producers based on that relationship that has a lot to do with how much camera time they have. And that also has to do with, will they get another season?

And you don't really start making money until you've been on like four seasons. That's so culty too, because it's like you have to be in it for a really long time. Yeah, you have to like, hang on, hang on. So you have to play the game. And what's most culty about it is that seemingly well-meaning people like has a nice husband and kids and is like normal, they'll get cast and then they're under this structure and they get compromised. I say sometimes it's like airport security, like they're normal.

Then they go through the airport security and they come out a diabolical person. Yeah. Because they're like, that's the only way to succeed in the space. And then the fandom makes it worse because they're celebrating queen bee behavior. So in the early days, it was like a docu-series in Orange County, pretty much like a woman who had two kids and worked in insurance office and the woman behind her, following her. But now it's almost like the Real Housewives all these seasons later is like survivor but at a dinner table.

Like a whole episode might be them sitting at a table. And there's the queen bee and then there's the floater. There's the wannabe. The banker has the gossip about someone's spouse or now it's like their business. Like, well, I don't know, like, is your marketing business legit? Because so many of them have like legal problems now. Yeah. Right.

So you see all those dynamics within the show. And then as I said, the fandom feeds it. The first season you're on, you're a wannabe. The social media, the fandom will feed into that and be like, you're a loser. So then the wannabe or the floater will buddy up to the queen bee or sometimes the sidekick as a way of getting to the queen bee in order to change the narrative. And so then you'll see like the first season they're on, they're like a housewife and they're like playing with their kids.

And then the next season they come on, they've got breast implants, like a full face of filler. They've upgraded their kitchens. They're wearing all these clothes that you're like, those are counterfeit. You could afford that because the housewives in the beginning, they don't really make that much money. So like all of a sudden you'll see somebody come back with like hair extensions. Yeah. I feel like the transformation is also part of what the audience leans into.

Like the audience almost salivates at when a like new housewife comes back different another season because they're like, yes, they're in or they're just like, oh, I observed the difference. And it's like, yeah, they did that on purpose. But I also think the majority of people that watch real housewives are actually women who are between like 25 and like 50. There is a segment of the population who are men and when those women become housewives, they encircle themselves with people that tell them like they're the greatest people

that walk the earth. Other women friends are going to be like, why are you on the show? Like you've become a complete whack job. Whereas men sometimes will go, okay, now you need to do this and you need to do that. And girl, you're the best. So they lose sense of who they are. And I feel like men actually have a lot of control over how a woman changes on the show because they start to encircle themselves only with people that will be their super fans.

And I don't think that always other women will do that. And then I get mad because I'm like, you listen to someone else's terrible advice. And now you're going to get fired because you're so embarrassing and then you're going to lose your marriage. You're not going to have any friends and you're going to look back. This chosen syndication and your kids are going to be like, what the hell happened? Because you just listened to the wrong people. And the gender dynamics where women in the cult are coerced by like manipulative men

to do these self-sabotaging things is a pattern we should frankly all be looking out for in our everyday lives. Yeah. I mean, the executive producer of Real Housewives is a man and who do we think is making the most money out of this franchise of that man? Everything you're saying is just like setting off alarm bells in my mind because when you break it down this way, it reminds me so much of when people ask me to break down the power structure of this cult and that cult.

I'm like, dude, they're all the same, Scientology, Nexium, Children of God, Heaven's Gate, Jonestown. You have the same exact power structure. And the reason why we never get sick of watching cult documentary after cult documentary is because we're still confused psychologically how it works and we're voyeuristically looking in on these power structures being like, is this a threat to me? Is this a threat to me? We're like rubber-necking. And the truth is, yes, we are all susceptible to this type of influence.

With the Real Housewives, it's especially entertaining because they do bring in those new characters and you observe the transformation from the newbie and the wannabe to the clout chaser to all these things, but we're there from the inception to the end and there's just so many parts of it that we can observe. Have you ever seen the movie Mean Girls with Lindsay Lohan? Yeah, of course. I just rewatched it the other day. So remember she shows up and she's just wearing a T-shirt and jeans and she physically transforms

into plastic. Yeah, a plastic. That is absolutely what happens to a housewife. They show up and they wear somewhat normal clothes. Jackie Goldschneider reminds me of that, a Real Housewives of New Jersey. She was a mom with two sets of twins and then she transformed. And so did Jennifer Aiden in New Jersey, her husband's a plastic surgeon. They look like a completely different version of the women that started with the show.

I blame a lot of that though on fandom because people are horrible on social media and they're probably like, girl, get your face fixed. You need to whiten your teeth. For Jackie, she just wrote a book about struggling with an eating disorder, and which by the way, I'm sure most of those housewives do have eating disorders. She was probably the only one brave enough to admit to it. Actually she and Crystal from Beverly Hills, but it makes me sad and frustrated that people call it a glow up.

I'm like, that's not a glow up when somebody completely transforms not just physically, but mentally of like who they are because of the conditions within the show. Yeah, and also I don't like that idea of like a glow up only being physical. I feel like it's low key a glow down because they become more superficial and like they only care about the show and like their fans and the whole idea of the show is surrounding supposedly family because you're a housewife, but it's like you're going backwards in that glow. I can also speak to that because I've talked to a lot of them offline and they do get completely

obsessed with how many followers the first season they're on, they're fighting about things about like interpersonal communication problems. Then after that, their fights are really actually become more about things that are having to do with the show. Like why were you asked to be on Watch What Happens Live, but I wasn't or you've been on three times, but I've only been asked one time and why did you get a deal with that lipstick company, but I didn't and how many followers do you have? Are you buying followers?

Did you steal my makeup team? Can you give us any tea on like any specific ones? I would just say they all change. The only person that I feel like has not changed. My one friend, I really recommended her for the show because I thought her story was great because she's a doctor and her husband's the stay-at-home dad and I thought that was like such a modern story. She was only on for one season because that's not what they're looking for.

She's not a dynamic personality and she wouldn't create fights. She just was like, yeah, I'm overwhelmed. I have three kids and I'm trying to run a doctor's office and my husband drives me crazy, but it wasn't enough for the network, the audience, et cetera. She's completely the same person, but she never watched any of the episodes and she barely pays attention to her social media, but that doesn't work for housewives because I think that they enjoy watching somebody like mentally unravel and become so obsessed with it.

So for a lot of these women, they become part of the show and it would be like a small part of their life. They already have all these friends from college and work and preschool and all that, but once they become a cast member on the show, their lives so revolve around the show that their only friends are the people that are on the show. Then they're paranoid that if they get kicked off the show, then that's a whole other thing. I think they all become addicted to fame in the same way like Nexium when you would go to one of these conferences, you get a high off of everybody being part of this idea of

self-empowerment. The validations, I feel like with Nexium, it was like the levels, but we also feel that on a day-to-day level. We get addicted to notifications. Even if you have 100 followers or 100,000 followers, you're addicted to posting and the instant gratification and they just feel it on this way larger level. In a way more narrow context, because we were talking about glowing up, but the conformity aspect, which is so culty in the Real Housewives universe, is such that when you glow up, you're

in this teeny, teeny, tiny little tube of how you're supposed to be. When you glow up, you end up just looking like everyone else and you're just trying to be the best at that one tiny, impossible thing. Whenever you know it, you've lost yourself and become so psychologically dependent on the group that it feels impossible to leave, even more so than the average person deleting their Instagram, which we do every three days. I literally have it deleted, but I have it open on Safari on three different tabs. I know.

It's so disgusting. I keep defecting and joining and defecting and joining and defecting and joining. I told you, I got locked out of my Instagram account for four days before I left for my trip and I was just like, is this a sign from the universe? Is this the worst thing that's ever happened to me? It was like a reckoning. But instead, you were like, I'm going to post on my Finsta. Yeah, bitch.

Listen, I am so in that fucking cult. You were like, I need to get, that's me snorting the cocaine that is Instagram. It feels like I'm putting something up my nose and that feels really desperate. I've never done cocaine, but if it feels anything like redownloading Instagram and posting something for a thousand likes, I would do it every day. So you shared a little bit of this like inside knowledge of your friend who joined and then ultimately like it wasn't for her. By the way, she was told she wasn't coming back.

She would have stayed. But that is like, you know, the rejection you get in a cult when you're like not in the top tier anymore. But you know what? That's probably like a blessing in disguise because it's like she would have stayed and if she would have stayed long enough, she would have changed. But she didn't change enough her first year probably. So then she just was like removed.

Hi, my name is Emma. My name is Emily and I'm in Houston and I'm a longtime Housewives fan. But the cultiest thing about the Housewives fandom is the stan culture that is created online. Like some of us like to talk about nuance within the show, but there are people who will backup and defend one person no matter what and everything that they say or do is right and everybody else is wrong. And it creates this cult of a certain personality that is so toxic online.

Hi, I'm Ariana from Boston and the cultiest thing about the Housewives is the loyalty you have to these women. They could be scum of the earth, say the worst things about anybody, but it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, they're loyal to their family and to their friends. So you ride hard for them. Yo, it's Morgan from Littlerock. I think the cultiest thing about Real Housewives is that somehow simultaneously there is so much secrecy, but we all know everybody's business.

It's all aired out, but there's still this layer of secrecy to it that we will probably never know about. By now, you probably have seen those tall boy cans of water with like the skull on the front that look all badass, even though they're just a healthy beverage. Now Liquid Death has iced teas and let me tell you hand to Godess that Liquid Death's armless Palmer iced tea lemonade is my new shit. I am dare I say in love with Liquid Death's new iced teas. Amanda will not stop talking about it.

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Do you have any knowledge on those inner workings of the franchise? I think that there are some cast members who are just very savvy. They just get it and they know what makes great TV. They've been called internally like force multipliers. They're people that kind of create scenes, you know, they kind of create the scene. They're just really like astute. They're on board with the whole thing. It's a difference between we're going to go to a dinner party and the whole cast is here.

There's the force multiplier there who's like, okay, someone needs to bring up that someone's husband had an affair. Yeah, that is literally Kylie through and through. They're under pressure like, okay, we might be filming this for six hours unless we can just get it out on the table. So then you rely on the banker archetype to be the person to go, oh, by the way, rumor is on the streets that someone's husband's having an affair and then it explodes. They just know what's going to make for a quick film.

They're producers. They're like, so they're producers like Kyle Richards, very good at it. Tamara Judge is excellent at it. About Bethany. I see a lot about Bethany on the internet. I do feel like she had that producer look and she is kind of an anomaly because she kind of existed on her own. I would say like more people wanted to glom under her like other cast members, but she

never needed a sidekick. Most queen bees need to have a sidekick. That's how you know that Bethany had one foot out the door of the cult, which speaking of you did such a good job of breaking down how like the actual cast members fit these different roles in the cult hierarchy of that element of the show. But in terms of like the stands and the fans, who has power here? Like who's truly the cult leader here? Is it Andy Cohen?

Like it's an interesting, weird thing because one would think like the network has the most power, but I don't think that's true because then you see seasons like Potomac this season where the cast tried to control the show and I think the network in the end was frustrated because they were like, we've lost control over the show, which is supposed to seem like it's a bunch of friends and their interpersonal communication, but they were all plotting before they filmed, who's the target, who are we going to take down? So I feel like the person who's in control is constantly changing, which makes it most dangerous.

Dude, it's like, I mean, it just reminds me of a lot of the conspiratorial cults that exist online nowadays where there is no one pin downable leader with a face that you can be like, that's the guy controlling everyone. It's like, it's whack-a-mole. Yes, it's whack-a-mole. Yeah. Yeah. The golden era of reality TV.

I feel like it was like 2015. It had been going on for like a short sec where like everyone kind of caught on and was good enough to like bring up conversations and get the ball rolling. But now there's almost so much reality TV, but when anyone gets casts in it, they're no longer like green. Like everyone has watched reality TV. It's so impossible to cast someone who doesn't already kind of know how to work it to their advantage.

So it's like overproduced. The only time it does work is if you come up with a completely different show idea, which is very hard to do, but for the most part, you know, most Generation Z and millennials grew up watching reality shows. People will say to me like, I'm too cerebral. I don't really watch reality shows. And then I'm like, oh really? And then they'll tell me like the person that won survivor and the names of the cast members

of like the real housewives. I'm like, oh, I thought you don't watch shows. No, it's just in the water. It's like all Netflix produces right now. When you said it's really hard to come up with a new reality TV show, I immediately thought like what if Amanda and I came up with one where like we came up with a cult and just like inducted people as like a joke, isn't that what we're doing? I mean, that is curious that reality TV in general, but especially the real housewives

because it's such an old franchise has really seeped into maybe the way that we generally engage with culture. I'm curious like over the years, there have been so many think pieces and critiques about how the real housewives is like the death of society. What do you think the popularity of the real housewives says about us as a culture? And do you think it has had a cult like impact on society at large? I don't agree with people that say it's the end of the world, not totally. I do think that there are many great things that came out of it.

The show began and it was stories about six suburban women who knew each other and like what their lives were like. You really had not seen that archetype on television. A woman over 40, a housewife, someone who's not like aesthetically like a movie star. There was a space and time where there were stories being told that didn't appear in movies or TVs, which was like women over 35. So I think that that has been helpful. I think some of the storylines have been like illuminate domestic violence or mental health.

There are certain things that are specific to women that I think it's been helpful telling those different stories on TV. So I wouldn't totally agree. It's the end of the world. I would say that I think the show needs to modernize because they become less like of a docu-series where you're following someone's life and it's thought provoking and you're looking like a voyeur through someone else's life lens, which I think ultimately helps you think about your own life and looking at it like a cultural anthropologist, I should

say. I feel like where it's gone off the rails is that it has become more cutthroat. Like I said, survivor at a dinner table. So it's Murphy's law, right? Like everything is going to become chaos. It's entropy, essentially. Yeah. I always say like, I wish I was the producer.

If I were at the helm, I would make it more about individual storytelling. I would actually watch it if it were about that. Where are all the women who are worried about breast cancer or ovarian cancer? Where are the stories about women who now not only have to raise their own children and have a strong marriage and have a career, but also now take care of their elderly parents? Where are the stories about women business owners and how all, encompassing it is to run a family and to business and who do you rely on? Do you rely on other male CEOs?

Probably not. The person that you're texting late at night is probably another female CEO. There's so many different aspects of being a woman between the ages of 25 and 50 that could be told through the vehicle of a reality television show slash docu-series. So true. Especially because the lines between those genres are so blurry now. Yeah. I'm still hopeful.

Yeah. Because I also think for the general purposes of entertainment, like shows that have gone longer than 10 years, you have to introduce like new elements and it has to ebb and flow between funny, chaotic, entertaining and serious. And that's when shows last forever because they have those serious moments, but they also have chaotic moments and also like life lessons. We talk about it in this podcast all the time. Holt leaders are opportunists who don't know when to restrain their thirst of power.

And before they know it, it spins out of control. That feels kind of similar to the real housewives, which has ballooned since it first started. Where do you foresee the real housewives universe going in the future? And what do you think it would take for the cult to disband? I think a housewife's going to murder her husband. Oh my God. So true. Like for the likes.

I mean, what if their algorithm was just doing really badly and then they were like, I need to do something so insane that I get on everyone's for you page and then they like murder their husband, but then their Instagram would ultimately pop off. They'll be like live logging the murder, like doing a haul with all their weapons. Like, oh my God, you guys, I just got the most amazing blade. It's Versace. So many of them have committed crimes. One genshaw from Real Housewives of Salt Lake City is actually within the next 48 hours

reporting to prison for the next six and a half years. Six years? That's real prison time. Although if you're scrolling enough through Instagram, it'll go right by six years in a blink. They've desensitized with their over the top behavior, which a lot of it I think is based on I need to be so outrageous that I insert myself into pop culture, the ecosystem forever and ever that the stakes keep getting higher.

It's going to be somebody that murders her husband. Damn. So true. I could see that calling it right now. Can we put bets on this like in a Super Bowl? Well, I actually. Which housewife? Dude, where?

I actually think that's really accurate because like all of the financial crimes and fraud that these housewives have started committing really goes with their brand. It's like in order to embody the wealth that they portray on the show, like of course fraud is going to result and the followers are going to like that because it like really tracks. Murders too far. Murder isn't the brand. Murders too much. And then the show will end and then they'll restart it with another name like keeping

up with the Kardashians. And it's now the Kardashians. Yes. It'll be like the wives of houses. Yes. The wives of houses. That is what cults do. They like get caught for something, someone gets arrested and then they rebrand in order

to never die. Absolutely. And it's always somebody who you're like, really, the guy who's five, four and he wears volleyball pads everywhere. That's the one. Yeah. He was like the most charismatic. And then you look at some of the housewives and you're like, wait, that's the charismatic

queen bee leader. Like what? It's perseverance. Yeah. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Like the marathon that you ran. Yeah. I do want to thank everyone who donated to my fundraiser though.

Thanks culties. I was able to raise $1,700 for girls on the run and then I ran my little ass off and that was amazing. And I just wanted to give all those girls and boys a shout out. I appreciate you. We want to ask you one last question before we play a fun culty game. Which real housewife sect, AKA like New Jersey, Beverly Hills, et cetera, do you think is the cultiest and why?

I'm going to go with Real Housewives of New Jersey. Why? I see the strongest archetypes that I've just mentioned. Teresa Judice is the queen bee and even though they probably don't like her, they feel like they need to be in proximity to her because becoming her friend ensures that you stay on the show. I don't think a lot of them like her, but they'll suck it up and suck up to her because they think that's the only way they can exist on the show.

And she's such a strong queen bee. She's so open about like, listen, this is my show. Everyone revolves around me. I am the center. She's very open about it. And then I think the newer housewives that are added, they're like wannabes. The worst wannabe. She began as a wannabe, which was Jennifer Aiden and now she became a sidekick.

So she's probably really a different person when she's not with Teresa, but she's worked her way up that structure that she became a bridesmaid at Teresa's wedding. That's wild. I think that makes the person at the top feel like, do you think that the queen bee knows that her friends are fake? She loves it. Oh my God. She doesn't see it as their fake.

She sees it as, I am so powerful. This is my show. I think she likes to see the ass kissing. Yeah. It literally gets her nasty little self off like she gets so off from that. Disgusting. Dude, I'm so curious, like before we get into the game, because like psychologically and sociologically, this shit is so fascinating and the way you break it down makes me feel

like it's even cultier in a dangerous way than when we even started. Like chicken or the egg kind of question, do you think that these women who become successful on the show arrive with the capacity to become a cult leader already in their soul? Or do you think the show awakens something in them? The majority are already like that, which is why they're cast. You could meet somebody who's super funny and engaging. They're the most interesting person at the dinner party, but they don't make a great housewife because a housewife has to be diabolical and they have to be delusional.

They think they're the most interesting person. Their way of looking at it is like, of course I'm going to be cast. Why was I not cast the minute I was born? Like what took you guys so long to show up to give me a show? And you know they're all delusional because producers will tell me, I've asked producers like how many of these women pitched themselves for their own spinoff shows and they're like every single one of them. Oh my God.

They think they're so entertaining that they should have their own show, but they were actually hired because they fit one of those archetypes to fill out a cast. The whole thing is so bonkers and I hate that we celebrate this as viewers. The royal we. It would be like next year, I'm like Allison Mack, Danielle, the brander Nancy and Sarah all at one time going, we should all of our own spin off self-help organization. Wow. And Keith Ranieri would be like, no, no, no, no.

You guys work for me. Remember I'm the center. That's Teresa Judice. Yeah. She's the Keith Ranieri. Yeah. She is the Keith Ranieri and that's how you know it's like a real self-sustained cult because they can't just start their own spin off.

They literally need permission from either the network or the head honcho. One thing I have to add though is like a typical cult. The big flag is that you let go of your own belief system and adhere to another belief system. That goes back to like you show up and you're wearing a khakis and you drive a minivan and you've got four kids and then a season later you have hair extensions, veneers. You're on Osempic. You have a lease for a car that you can't afford.

You're renting a house that you can't afford. You're wearing counterfeit clothes. You've completely lost the values that you've held deep to fit into what the cult is telling you is success. Well, it's amazing to me because the Real Housewives is so beloved and celebrated in mainstream. There are quotes like cult plus time equals religion. I think that really applies here.

The Real Housewives is a religion that everyone accepts and now the spinoffs that are a little fringier and more niche are maybe the quote unquote cults that could one day become religions in and of themselves. Also, it's like you say that as like a metaphor, but I've literally heard friends call the Real Housewives their church. Their church. Yeah. Absolutely.

And then they're devoted to it. They're like a congregant and they show up every week at the same time and then they read everything and they follow all the accounts and they go to BravoCon. BravoCon is like the nexium annual retreat. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have a friend who's a comedian, Hannah Burner. She was like on Bravo and her podcast like the Giggle Squad, they literally are like

selling out huge venues with their fans because they were on Bravo and also they're like very funny and entertaining, but it goes so deep. Yeah, and it makes sense that the fandom has become so zealous because this is the sort of like social media era, late stage capitalist cult that we need and deserve. You know what I mean? It's like Protestantism, boring, Episcopalian church, goodbye. I worship at the altar of Ramona or Kyle, whatever. Yeah.

Also, I think there's like a sense of comfort of like watching rich people self-destruct because we are in this chaotic actual self-destructing world with like real humanitarian crises happening around us. That's entropy. That's entropy. Okay. I'm literally describing a big word and so like everything is like blowing up around us and we're like, oh, like we can just watch these like privileged women blow their own

lives up. Yeah. And relax on the couch and eat pizza. Yep. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Entropy people. If you didn't know what it means and now you do.

Yeah. That's the physics podcast. Hi, my name's Maris and I'm from Scotland and I think the cultiest thing about the housewives or Bravo in general is BravoCon. They get thousands of people in one location with all of the cast from all the different Bravo shows, including the housewives and kind of parade them around like a kind of zoo. They have activities, they have meeting rates and people pay a lot of money and go completely

nuts over it. So yeah, I think that is the cultiest thing. Hey, Yissa and Amanda, I think that the cultiest aspect of real housewives, just the Bravo verse in general, is just how rabid the fandom is. Like the stands are very unhinged. I think that the social media following and how polarizing some housewives or just Bravo liberties are is very culty because if there's any sort of dissenting opinion, people will go pretty ham with their faves.

All right, so now we're going to play a game. This is a classic sounds like a cult game. It's very simple. It's called What's Cultier? So we're going to read two real housewives related scenarios and you'll choose which in your opinion is more culty. Shout out to the culties on Instagram who watch Real Housewives religiously and helped us come up with some of these examples.

Which is cultier? The drama-optimized couch placements during reunion tapings or the step-ferty opening credit sequence. Opening credit sequence. Yeah, and I also think that it's cultier because it's also pushed into society. Everyone jokingly does it with their friends now. It's a meme. Well, I also feel like, again, you were a shadow of the person that you were.

All of a sudden, you were laughing at housewives' openings and then you're holding a diamond in like the Hervé Legère gown with your husband who's miserable behind you and your kids that you have overly dressed and you say something completely stupid that's nothing at all like yourself. Yeah. You're a parody of yourself at that point, which I think reality TV does. Yeah. It's so funny how like the lines are blurred.

What's your real housewife of sounds like a cult tagline? Wait, I literally texted it to my friend the other day as a joke, but I cannot remember what it is. We do have these like life rules that we wrote down and it's like, don't come this far just to come this far. What? What does that even mean? The thing is, is that what they also don't realize because they're members of their cult

is that the leaders who in this space are the producers are like making fun of them. They're taking the most ridiculous moment of the season and sentering their tagline around that. If I don't call for you, you better come to me. It's like, if you took that and put that on paper and you gave it to them, they're like, what the hell is that? Like for me, let's say I'm on housewife, right? And they're like, okay, what makes her different than everybody?

Well, she does have those five kids, which is totally weird. And they're going to make me be like, film me in scenes where it looks like I'm wearing like a skirt down to my ankles with a French braid or something. And like, they're going to make my tagline like, I may not be thin, but my uterine wall is where that would like no way represent me at all. But it's like, ooh, but they got a good scene on camera. And I would be such a cult member if I were in it that I would go posting it on my socials like so excited, like my opening statements out and your real friends are like, girl,

you're in a cult. Like they just look so stupid. What's cultier? All the hyper quotable slut pig prostitute whore name calling that happens on the show or all the can't be unseen table flipping hair pulling and prosthetic leg throwing. The second one, because now the cult members believe that the stakes are higher. You went from flipping a table to taking your leg and throwing it across the table. You're prosthetic, which is now like crimes, which as I mentioned, you'll murder your husband

state. Yeah. You're continually getting higher. That's more cult. Yes. That's true. Like calling people names is mean and whatever. But like not illegal.

Okay, but like the name calling is what led to the leg throwing. Yeah. You know, like. Aviva Drescher said I went into that scene wanting to make a moment. She has said that that was a calculated move for screen time. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay.

Next question, which is cultier, the shameless celebration of consumerism or the portrayal of women as image obsessed, belligerent breaths? I don't know. It's pretty equal. That's true. Those two are pretty equal because they kind of like feed into each other. Not like a good cult member. Their idea of reality is so skewed where they're like, no, this is a show about female empowerment

where we all rely on one another and you're like, girl, what are you talking about? Yeah. You're like, gorel. The real gorel is sounds like a cult. Okay. Next round, which is cultier claims that Mary Cosby, if you know, you know, from the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City is a cult leader who allegedly refers to herself as God, manipulates her church members into working for her family's businesses for free, verbally abuses followers

and tells them they will go to hell if they leave her church, or Real Housewives of New Jersey, Dina Manso's ex-husband getting charged for hiring the literal mob to attack her new husband. I'm going to go with number one and here's why. Fandom are also cult members because we are presented with a woman who based on all of our prodigious amount of work, understanding cults, knows that Mary Cosby's church has a lot of red flags and when I watched it, I was like, this is a problem. However, they got rid of her for good reason, but the show wasn't entertaining enough that

now the audience is like, well, we got to bring Mary back and I'm like, but she might be a cult leader and they're like, we don't care. Now the audience is becoming cultish. We don't care if she's a cult leader, bring her back. She's funny. It's like, wait, what? You can't go of your own value system to accommodate what you're told is entertaining. But that's why it's such a weird, wild kind of thing is that like I said, like who the

queen bee is, who the cult leader is is ever changing. Sometimes it's the audience, sometimes it's the cast, sometimes it's the network. So true. Okay. Last question. What is cultier? The clout chasing couple that crashed a White House dinner in 2021 while they were auditioning to be on Real Housewives of DC or Jen Shaw, the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City pleading

guilty to running a massive telemarketing fraud scheme. I'm going to say Jen Shaw more so because well, first of all, she's diabolical. She's delusional. But despite all the signs that she was committing crimes, she had a number of elderly victims that have come forward and said they've lost their life savings. There have been victims that have taken their life. There are still cult-like behavior of the audience who are like, she slays, like she's a diva.

She's that iconic. I'm like, she destroyed people's lives, but people don't care because they find her entertaining. Like I love the way she does her makeup. They're like, go off queen. They're like, it's fucked up. I just want to just really quickly pull back how you were saying how like the fan members are like, yes, go off queen, like slay. Yeah, even when you were saying the word diabolical, that like Jen Shaw was diabolical.

I don't know why, but when you said diabolical, I internalized that as good in my brain. I was like diabolical. That's reality TV brain. That's like the conditioning of reality, the conditioning where you're like, oh, that's like, she's going to be a great TV star. You're like, yeah. Totally. Oh my God.

Yeah. Okay. This has been such a juicy convo. Yeah. Wow. I just want to keep up with you and your little cult, where can they find you? Reality life with KKC, anywhere where you listen to podcasts, my must watch list, you got to sign up for it because it'll tell you every week what to watch.

So go to kkc.substack.com. Well, thanks again for coming on the podcast, thank you. So now that the Real Housewives franchise has expanded to include Ultimate Girls Trip seasons which act a lot like all-star seasons of other shows, there's now also the hierarchy of the women that have been deemed powerful enough, large enough players in the structure of the housewives franchise to make it onto one of these all-star seasons. And the women explicitly say that they recognize these hierarchies when they go on these trips. Part of Ultimate Girls Trip seasons are that these are the only parts of the franchises

where the women are allowed to explicitly speak out loud about their experience being a housewife. What I've heard from a lot of people that are involved with or adjacent to the show is that most of the time what the women are arguing about on these shows are the shows. But the way that the Ultimate Girls Trip works is that they are explicitly allowed to speak about their experience working on the show. Because they've reached a certain hierarchy that allows them the freedom to do that, if you are not on an Ultimate Girls Trip show, you are not allowed to speak about the fact

that you are filming, the fact that you are not really friends, all of those things need to continue to plan the illusion. Issa, which of those real housewives culty archetypes do you think you are? Okay, let's go over them really quickly. There's the queen bee, we all know what that is. There's the sidekick. There's the hoarder who kind of just like loves to gossip and start drama. And then there's the floater, obviously floats around, and the bystander who is going to

get kicked off because they don't make it. They're just not providing. They're not giving. And that's not me, obviously, by process of elimination. I will always give something, and that could be anger, that could be sleep, but I'm giving. I'm not a sidekick, no fucking way, but I'm also not a queen bee. I think you're the gossip. I literally was just about to say by process of elimination, I am 100% the hoarder.

I am the gossip. I mean, I've been in New York for the last week and a half, and I keep getting scared that someone is going to record me talking shit because in California, there are laws that say you can't record audio from someone without their consent, but in New York, anyone could be recording me at any time. What a chaotic, evil mistress New York can be sometimes. What about you? Oh, I'm the floater, like without question.

I'm just like in there for a quickie observational sesh, but then like I can't stand the heat, so I got to get out of the kitchen. But you are famously competitive and you don't like to fail. And I feel like if you were to go into the Real Housewives, you would then be like, I have to win and you would become the queen bee. But I don't like having to slot into a type at all is the thing, which is why like we have a podcast where you can call Amanda, I'm going to push back on this in public. And by public, I mean in this prerecorded episode that you love to not be slotted.

You are famously unslotable. That is its own type. Yeah. It's like one foot in, one foot out. Who is she? Yeah. But that's a brand. And so you would be like the queen bee, but you would be like, I'm doing it different.

I'm going to take that as a compliment. I've also been trying to think about what my like self-parodying intro tagline would be. I like to square dance. Line dance. Crack you. It's line dancing. Square dancing. That's offensive.

Line dancing. Oh my God. Thank you for seeing me as line dancer. God, but they're all punny and I don't like puns. I like say it with me. Port Montos. Yeah. Yeah.

That would be it. That would be it. Amanda's would be like, I don't like puns. I like Port Montos. Mine would be like, is there any food here? Where's the snacks? I saw so and so eating the snacks before the snacks were put on the table. Okay, well, just to wrap this up, Amanda, out of the three cult categories.

What do you think the cult of the Real Housewives is? A Live Your Life? A Watch Your Back? Or a Get the Fuck Out level cult? I think it's so funny. When we were setting out to do this episode, I thought it was going to be a similar verdict to The Bachelor, where for the listeners, it was a Live Your Life. And for the participants, the people on the show, it was a Watch Your Back.

But because people are really tossing away their values so quickly, both on and off the show, I actually think for the listeners, it's a Watch Your Back. And for people on the show, it's a Get the Fuck Out. I agree. I mean, Kate mentioned multiple times that there were housewives that have gotten on the show and admitted to being addicted to the attention that they get from the show, and actively changed parts about themselves and their lives to continue to get that attention. And that is very toxic behavior.

And I know we all do things for attention, i.e. I literally ran 13 miles for attention. But the housewives are inserting injections in their face, like changing the science of their bodies, divorcing their husbands, ignoring their kids. That is really deeply rooted toxic behavior. And the listeners are abandoning their ethics, being like, oh, a cult leader is on the show? No, I love that. I love that we stand. Yeah, that's actually a really good point, because I feel like when we stan a character

in scripted TV, it's scripted. Like it's fake. It's a fake character. That's why it's healthy. But people forget when they're watching real housewives, like these are real people and their lives. And even though they're leaning into a character and a role of the villain, like those have real effects on their real life.

It just goes to show how more broadly our lives are becoming less empathetic, more disembodied, more extreme, more culty. Yeah. Yeah. And don't forget culties were real people too, actually. And by the way, if you have a real housewives stan in your life, please send this episode to them because they're going to need to hear that. Yeah, they're going to want to hear it.

And we're starting an MLM, send this episode to 10 friends and we will tattoo your name on my ass. Oh my God, it's just like a biblical scroll of like our most devoted culties names. Love that idea. That cheeks are just going to be like literally the Torah. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week.

But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds like a cult was created, hosted and produced by Issa Medina and Amanda Montell. Our theme music is by Casey Colt. This episode was edited and mixed by Jordan Moore of the Podcabin. To join our cult, follow us on Instagram at soundslikeacultpod. I'm on Instagram at Amanda underscore Montell and feel free to check out my books, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism and Wordslet, a feminist guide to taking back the English language.

And I'm on Instagram at Issa Medina, ISAA, M-U-D-I-N-A-A, where you can find tickets to my live standup comedy shows or tell me where to perform. We also have a Patreon and we would appreciate your support there at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. And if you'd like our show, feel free to give us a rating on Spotify or Apple podcasts. And if you don't like our show, rate other podcasts the way you'd rate us.