Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Theatre Kids

Episode Date: April 26, 2022

POV: You work at Denny's. It's 12 AM. You want to go home. And from outside you hear it... your worst nightmare: 40 pairs of hungry footsteps and an acapella intro to Grease's Summer Nights. In this episode, with the help of stage actor and Tik Tok sensation Tyler Joseph Ellis, Isa and Amanda dig into Theatre Kid (yes, spelled “re”) culture—the rituals and superstitions, the cliques and power structures—to see just how far a teenager will go to live out their High School Musical dream. For a limited time, new users can get $10 in free Bitcoin when you sign up today at Coinbase.com/CULT  Listeners can get 65% off their first month of medication management and care counseling at cerebral.com/Cult.  Helix is offering up to 200 dollars off all mattress orders AND two free pillows for our listeners at HelixSleep.com/cult. 

Hi, Issa and Amanda. My name is Michelle. I'm from Moscow, Idaho, and I was a theater kid in middle school, high school, and for a couple years in college. I think the cultist thing about being a drama student has to be the unpaid labor that the department expects of you. I would get put on a show and have to be at the theater until, you know, two in the morning, working on sets or sitting through tech runs, and I'd have to take weeks off of my actual job to be there to do that without getting paid. Hey, I'm Sydney from Anchorage, Alaska, and the cultist thing about theater kids is the exclusivity within the group itself. The high school I went to had a secret society called the Nipple Club. Nobody really knows how far back it went, but you

had to either play the dude or show Nipple, and all anybody wanted to do was get into that society. My name is Elena, and I live in Massachusetts, and I am a former theater kid turned music and theater teacher. So I've been on both sides of this particular cult. I think the cultist thing about being a theater kid is the way that we tend to revere our theater teachers. We often turn them into like the guru and do all these weird favors for them. I remember in my case, we would fight over the opportunity to pick them up coffee or to bring them their sandwich or to do all these chores for them in the hopes that it would bring favor to us when the cast list finally went up. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cult we all follow. I'm Amanda Montel,

author of the book Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism. I'm Issa Medina, and I'm a comedian. Every week on our show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group that puts the cult in culture to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? To join our cult, follow us on Instagram at SoundsLikeACultPod. I'm on IG at Amanda Underscore Montel, and I'm on Instagram at Issa Medina, I-S-A-A-M-E-D-I-N-A-A. And feel free to check us out on YouTube where you can watch our show, I'm gesturing you want to see it, or support us on Patreon where all our episodes will soon be available at free at patreon.com sounds like a cult. Oh man, I really do think that my entire life has led up to this extremely cathartic and vindicating

episode. It really has for you and also the fact that like you survived this cult is unique for us. It's an exchange. I feel like it's different than our normal situation. Indeed, we have discussed a few cults that I've been a member of, but never as zealously as this one. Yeah, this one you had to put your like little 14 year old foot down and be like, no more. I'm not doing it. And it still kept luring me back. Today we're talking about the cult of theater kids. Yes, you know them, you love them, you can hear them in the hallway. Oh, you sure can. It's funny, when I tell the story about how I came up with the idea for my book, I talk about how I grew up with this cult survivor in the family. My dad was forced to join a cult called Synanon when he was in high school. And

as I grew up, I heard his stories and I started to notice cult like influence like that, which he described on the compound in places where you wouldn't otherwise look for cult influence, like social media and social studios, but especially, especially the theater programs that I was a member of as a child. Yeah, you've told me stories about these before. And it's funny, I can just like picture little Amanda like in middle school or high school being like, nope, sorry, I won't have a cult leader in like walking away sassily. Yeah, I developed a habit of dropping out of theater programs, but toxically telling myself like, no, the next one will be different. The next one will be different. I do have a question though, do you think that because I know I tried theater

in middle school and I didn't get the role that I wanted? This is my favorite story. Please tell the story of the one play that you acted in in middle school. I did one play in middle school and it was like, I don't know, like Horton here is a who or something classic. And I was casted as the clown. Perfect. But no, it wasn't perfect because I was like, I need to be the star and I was it. And then like years later, now I'm like, oh, I'm a comedian. Absolutely apropos, it was your fortune being told. I feel like I left the cult of theater kids very quickly because I was cast as that clown. And I was like, insulted by it. But I mean hindsight's 2020 because now I'm like, was that foreshadowing? I was casted as a clown and I do stand up comedy. It really all

does make sense. When I ask you to think of the cult of theater kids, what what rituals and imagery and behaviors immediately come to mind? I would say all the kids like backstage, like holding hands and like praying before shows or like doing their exercises in front of the mirror or honestly just like sharp pay from high school musical quintessential theater kid. Yes, absolutely. That's a great point to start on. There are so many superstitions and really cult like traditions and rituals that theater kids participate in and really believe into their core. You're supposed to say break a leg instead of good luck before a performance. You're not supposed to say the name of the Shakespeare play Macbeth inside of a theater or else really? Yeah, you're supposed to refer to

it as the Scottish play because there's some superstition about a ghost or an untimely violent death and theater kids truly believe that if you say the name of the play Macbeth in a theater, you'll be cursed. There are so many like sing songs and chants and ridiculous play pretend games that you all do together like party quirks and pretending to be different animals. But at the very least theater kid rituals are culty just on first blush. It's really funny. I thought when all these kids of all different backgrounds would hold hands and pray together and then go straight into like a zip-zap-zop. I am so triggered by zip-zap-zop. Yes, these games are so ridiculous, but because they're ridiculous, they bond you because it's quite vulnerable to get into a

circle of people and do something as absurd as shooting your hands at them and saying zip-zap-zop. It is and you look so stupid, but the few times that I have done it, I can't lie like I had so much fun. I had a freaking blast and I did it like. Joining a cult is fun. It is. Or else why would anyone do it? Exactly. For the food? For the sex? And all of that can be found backstage at a high school theater production. No one's having more sex than the theater kids. It's gross. It's so gross. The theater kids who would hook up backstage at my high school and they all smelled. And you keep saying theater kid and we're going to say theater kid throughout this episode because we're talking about high school, middle school, elementary school kids. Absolutely. I think it's

important to clarify that because they start so young. That's why they believe those things, like the Macbeth thing. Totally. If you go to like camp when you're like 10 years old and you hear this myth, you're going to take it so seriously. Oh, no one takes themselves more seriously than theater kids. So you're exactly right. We're talking about kids who grew up doing community theater, going to theater camp. Maybe they went so far as to go to a performing arts middle school and high school like I did. Maybe they went so far as to start college in a BFA theater program, which I've recently started admitting I did. Yeah. Yeah, you did. I go back and forth between being jealous of people who actually pursued it and realizing that like my path was my path

into entertainment. But I think it's so sad how like some kids are discouraged to do theater because they're told that there's like no real careers in it. True. And it's decidedly uncool. It's not sports or any of the more like mainstream popular kid activities like theater kids are regarded as the nerds and freaks. Yeah. I don't know. The first time it was seen as cool for me was literally high school musical when like, oh, like the basketball player wants to do theater. You're right. Like I started in theater really, really little. Like I was, I mean, when I first expressed the desire to do theater, I was probably like four. That's also such a theater kid thing to do is to express the desire because like I wanted to so badly. But I remember watching

like American Idol with my parents and being like in my head, I was like, I want to be a singer. And then I would be like embarrassed to express what I really wanted. Yeah. You definitely have to have a certain amount of hammy obnoxiousness to start being a theater kid. I recently realized I was talking about this with my roommates, but I recently realized that like, I've thought I was like confident my whole life. But then I was like, wait, being confident just in your head is not confident. If you don't project it outwardly. So it's like, I've just been humble internally, which means I'm not, I'm just insecure. I see. I think I was maybe the opposite. I would project this extreme confidence, but on the inside hated myself. Oh, no, baby, Amanda hated herself. That's

so funny, but also shows how susceptible young theater kids are because if you weren't only a child, but you're also insecure, there's so much room for leaders in the space to take advantage of you. We'll talk about how that sort of attitude plays into the cult of theater kids and how certain charismatic leaders in this space will take advantage of that energy. I think I was maybe four when my parents bought me the little Broadway kids cassette tapes that we would listen to in the car, which were like kids bop, but for Broadway songs performed by Broadway kids. So your parents kind of helped you lean into the cult? I think so because my grandfather was really into theater. Okay. And I think, you know, part of your personality has already revealed

itself by the time you're like one, two, three years old. Yeah. And I think my parents clocked some theater kid energy in me. So they decided to nurture it. So I did my first show when I was seven. I played Dopey. I don't know who Dopey is. It's no way. Oh, sorry. ESL. I don't remember. I feel like I watched no way in Spanish. Oh, I see. I see. What's what's Dopey's character name in Spanish and no Mac way to though, which means I can't remember. Oh, okay. Cool. Probably just Dopey. Dopey. Yeah. So I played Dopey and I just I caught the theater bug as they say, I was just absolutely enthralled by the community aspect. I mean, you first of all, feel like you're being inducted into a religion that immediately accepts you. Yeah. That reminds

me of like when I was in first joined Girl Scouts for the first time, which is something for another episode. Totally, totally. But when you're a kid, like you really thrive on those environments to figure out who you are to establish, you know, relationships and to figure out how you relate to other kids. But the theater community absolutely referred to itself as like a family and always every single hour of my extracurricular life was occupied by rehearsals, acting classes. Yeah, I also feel like you love validation. And of course. And so you were like, it was like positive conditioning for you. It's almost like before social media, we didn't have likes. Yeah. So that was like a real in live in person like applause. Yeah, you needed that.

As Lady Gaga said, I lived for the applause. I mean, and as Lady Gaga says, you just need one person in every room. That's hardcore theater vibes that, you know, because they there are these stock expressions that theater teachers and theater directors will repeat to you. Like if there's anything else you can imagine yourself doing, do it because this is a calling. Yeah. Like there really is this sense of purpose that you're imbued with when you're a theater kid. Yeah. And these sayings like there can be a million people in the room, but just one person needs to believe in you. It kind of gives me that same feeling of like when people are addicted to gambling, they're like, Oh, but it'll be the next one. Yes. And so they keep you linked. It's this exceptionalism.

Exactly. They're like, don't worry, it doesn't happen to everyone, but you might be special. Oh, absolutely. It is totally delusional. You know, statistically, how many theater kids actually become Broadway stars, but you just have it in your mind when the theater director is speaking to the whole group of people, you're like, it's gonna be me. Yeah. So how do you think you're affected today from having been a theater kid at such a young age? Do you think the rituals or practices followed you? I credit a lot of, you know, what I think are positive abilities to my theater kid days. Like I think it taught me to be on time. I think it taught me to like think quickly on my feed. I think it taught me to perform well in job interviews. Yeah,

it sounds a lot like what the cheerleader said in the cheerleading episode. I think so too. A lot of really smart kids in high school and college are told that you just need to be really good at the technical stuff. You need to like learn how to pass a test. But when it comes to real life, when you want to get a job or when you meet people or when you network, it's social skills. A lot of it comes down to like personality and likeability. It's so true. It's so true. And so, you know, I think I learned a lot from theater. I loved my theater camp in particular. Wait, so did you go to theater camp multiple times or for how long? Are you kidding me? I obsessively, it was the thing I looked forward to every single summer. It was what I

lived for. Every summer I would show up at my theater camp and I would roll up on the bus and the smell of the private school where it took place would wash over me and I would just be like, I'm here. I'm here at summer stock. And it was a sleepaway camp? It was a sleepaway camp. For how long? I think it was maybe only a month. A month? It was only a month, but it felt like a year. That's a long time. As a kid? Oh, are you kidding me? I wish I could live there year round. Like, I loved it so much. I went to running camp for one week and I was like, enough is enough. But we ran twice a day, so that's not as fun as like playing around on the stage. Theater camp was a world. Like, it was somewhere where you lived and it kind of like took over your

whole life. Oh, absolutely. And I think that's kind of a great point for us to jump into the culture aspects of theater kids comes into play. My name is Lainey and I'm from Brisbane, Australia. I did musical theater for six years and the cultiest thing to me is if you audition for a show and don't get in and all of your friends do, you're immediately an outsider and basically your friendship group is gone. Hello, my name is James from Indianapolis, Indiana. I was not allowed to unironically enjoy things that weren't theater like sports or Dungeons & Dragons. Hi, my name is Nicole. I'm from Florida. I think the cultiest thing about the theater community is the unchecked power dynamic that leadership has, especially in community theater. They can exploit your own

self-doubt or guilt you into only performing in their theater. And if you try to leave or speak out against them, you run the risk of them using their relationships with other local leadership to ruin your voluntary theater career. Let's start by first just talking about what I think outsiders perceive as the culty aspects of theater kids. As someone who was only in one play once, I think some of the cultiest things for me was like, you know, the way that they all dress the same. And I think different generations had different moments. Something that I saw like earlier in my middle school days is that all theater kids would wear a black, but when I got to high school, it was really popular for theater kids, especially girls to wear like a tie with

a t-shirt, kind of like an Avril Lavigne vibe. Oh, that's did you ever see that? No, that was not the thing in my high school, but that's a vibe. Yeah, and like popped collars with a tie. Oh, okay. Yeah, I think it was because it was like the Sharpay influence. Something else that was kind of culty to me was that they would all stay after school, but it wasn't necessarily because they like had a meeting or had a club. It was like they would stay after school just to like hang out in the hallway or in the theater. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Because your theater kids are your life. They're your family and you just want to be in that space where you feel like you're at home. I mean, we had a black box theater in my high school and so we were all very artsy and would just

spend our entire afternoon, even if we didn't have a black box theater. It's just like a giant black room that you can transform with different set pieces into theater in the round or a proscenium stage. I can't believe this terminology is still with me, but yeah, I have no idea what that means. All I know is we had like an auditorium and then we had a smaller theater. I see. That's a little fancier. My school was pretty dilapidated, but we wore that as like a badge of pride of artsiness. Of course. Yeah, and so everybody would hang around after school for hours and hours, but especially when it was rehearsal week or tech week. Yeah, that reminds me of another culty aspect in that like it was kind of cool for the department to kind of like be low budget,

but everyone was expected to fundraise for the department. And so like if you wanted to be a part of the play, it's like you were seen better by the department if you like helped fundraise for it and like sold donuts and like, which at the end of the day is like how much money is a donut going to like ring to the department? I have no idea. That's a great point. But it was more so like the fact that you were like putting in the hours than like you might be cast as like a better part in the next season's play or whatever. Completely, completely. The amount of dedication that you would have to exhibit, the amount of loyalty you would have to dedicate to the theater department, the theater teacher was astronomical. Yeah. And another thing as an

outsider was the shame associated with not just being a theater kid. Like I ran track and cross country in high school, but I had friends who were both in sports and in theater, classic Troy Bolton vibes. And like they weren't taken a seriously because they weren't purists because they weren't purists. Yes. There's a lot of in group out group. I mean the theater kids, they're misfits, right? Like they're not the cool kids. They were maybe bullied in elementary school or middle school. So when they find like minded others, they feel the need to sort of create this little circle where all they do is walk around singing songs from rent and Greece. And that can sort of like flip the shame that they once felt around on outsiders. They're like,

well, I know that you want to bully me, but I'm going to ostracize you first by singing. Oh no, don't sing at me. I'm going to die. Do you think that theater kids kind of got through that because they told themselves, well, I'm going to be famous one day? Because everyone knows like the theater kid might be the loser in high school, but like one day they're going to be accepting an Oscar. This is absolutely correct. So this is a main point that I want to bring up. You know, someone mentioned to me once when I was talking about how I would notice cultishness in my high school theater program, they were like, oh, you don't normally think of a theater teacher as a cult leader. And I'm like, but think about it. No one is more vulnerable to the pernicious charms of a

charismatic guru than a young, vulnerable misfit who has enough hope and optimism to think that they could one day be famous, that they could one day be a star. And here is someone looking at them in the eye and telling them who they are and saying, it's possible for you. I see it in you. You could be a star. That is so powerful. It is so powerful that, you know, you were that kid and you believed in that dream. But I wonder if now anything has changed because of social media, you know, because like back in the day, a teacher could just approach a kid and be like, if you just stick to this program, you can be a star. But it's like now it's like if you do your own thing and post things on TikTok, you actually could be a star. I think that that's true. I

also would argue, and I don't know this for sure, but I would argue that nothing feels more transcendent than that in person connection and that like human attention and love bombing from a teacher that you know in real life. You don't think going viral feels more transcendent than love bombing from a teacher? That's a great question. I think that the TikTok fame is more ephemeral. So you're only feeling good for a split second of time. Whereas like if you're involved in an in person theater group, you're that's like a little bit more sustainable of a cult affiliation. Yeah, I feel like maybe the influence could run a little deeper because you're developing this intimate relationship with one person. That's right. And you're getting

validation from that person. Whereas like yeah, in the internet, it's like viral for a moment, but maybe it's a little more addicting. No, that's absolutely true. But I think the the dynamics are really different because if you're a theater kid at camp or doing community theater or at a school, you're the cult follower. You know, maybe if you've been selected as like your theater teacher's favorite, you're going to be the stars of the show and you're going to carry a certain amount of power. But if you go viral on TikTok, in some ways, you're a follower to the cult leader of TikTok itself and their lakes and there's a higher power there. Yeah, which is the algorithm. The algorithm, our lord and savior. And I imagine being a theater kid isn't just about

becoming famous. It's also about being a part of this like small exclusive family and real life probably feels more meaningful and satisfying. I think another culty aspect about theater kids is like, you know, you're a teenager, you're in high school, you're in this place where like you don't know who your friends are and you don't know what your friend group is. And so when you do find that community, you want to stick to it. And so it's kind of sad that like some theater kids maybe feel like they can't leave theater because they'll lose their friends. Oh, absolutely. No bond is tighter than that of a theater community. Yeah. And like maybe they might be like ostracized or shamed if they like stop doing the play. It's kind of like leaving a sorority. Like I don't

want to be part of this club anymore, but I still want my friends. And it gets especially problematic when one person in that theater community, whether it's a theater camp or a community theater or a high school, experiences something problematic or something even abusive, something toxic, and they want to distance themselves from that group. But much like a cult, they don't feel like they can because they will lose their friends, they'll lose their purpose, they'll lose their dream. And I feel like it can get a little more toxic because the leadership is also a culty. Instead of the teachers being like a safe space for kids who are feeling ostracized to go to. Like a moderator. Exactly. They often can't because the teachers are just as much in the

cult as the kids are. I mean, think of who theater teachers and directors are. Absolutely every single director of every theater community I was in, they were people who wanted to be stars themselves and didn't make it. And so they absolutely got off on the power that they wielded over the next generation of theater kids. It was intoxicating to them. And there were several moments, especially at my high school, when that power was abused in an extremely cult-like way. That's so sad that that takes place because it's like, I feel bad talking about these teachers who like probably aren't getting paid really well. You know, they're like public school teachers. And I feel bad talking about teachers like this because they're not all toxic. And it's important

to say a lot of them are actually underpaid teachers who are definitely amazing people, providing a safe space for a lot of folks in high school kids who don't feel like they belong. And those teachers are so important. But for them to take advantage of their position on these like really like young, vulnerable children. Young, vulnerable, hopeful. The trifecta for cult susceptibility. Yes, not good. Not good. You know, it's bad when I break out the accent. You know, you stop to get awkward. Hi, sounds like a cult pod. My name is Jordan. I'm from Philadelphia. Stage parents are probably the cultiest thing about theater kids. When I was in stage

care in high school, I had grown women yelling in my face about making their child look good. My name is Desiree. I'm from Hawaii. And I think the most culty thing about theater kids is that the community is very exclusive. Like it's definitely seen as a lifestyle and not a hobby. Therefore, you can only date or marry someone in the community. Hi, this is Sarah in Chicago. And the cultiest thing I think about theater kids is, sadly, the needing to prove your worthiness through suffering, whether that's all the sleep deprivation, method acting, don't get me started, or downright exploitation and abuse by theater producers and directors in the name of art. So you mentioned your high school theater teacher

earlier. Tell us that story a little bit. What happened? I'll never forget the first day that I showed up at my high school theater. I was a theater major in my high school. You had to audition and all of that. Instantly, everybody had to strip down and dress in their black clothes. And I remember feeling uncomfortable that you had to get basically naked in front of these kids that you didn't know, boys, girls, everyone in between, and also the teacher, and transform into this uniform. You had to change in front of the teacher. I suppose you could have gone to the bathroom, but that just wasn't done. The teacher was in the room, so you're changing into your uniform. And there's something kind of exciting about that, because you're like

a student in high school, and it's sexy. Theater kids think of themselves as pretty sexy. It's like, oh, we're so loosey-goosey, and we all hook up backstage, and we don't care about nudity. We're artists. Meanwhile, I was changing in the bathroom stall during track practice. I was like, don't look at me. Yeah, well, it was sort of the opposite of that, especially because I feel like a lot of actors, there's nudity in scenes. And so as a kid, you're proving, oh, if something needs to happen, I'm going to be comfortable with it. There's a lot of talk of fearlessness in acting and in theater, and you want to prove yourself to be willing to do anything, fearing nothing. And that began with stripping down and putting on this uniform. And there's

something symbolic and exciting about wearing the uniform of this program that you've really wanted to go to. But at the same time, there's something really conformist about it. And I remember, instantly, everybody would just hang on his every word. He would get at the front of the classroom, and he would just almost act like he was performing a monologue. He would sort of sermonize us with the mission of the day or the lesson of the day. And a lot of the time, he would exaggerate the truth, and it just all felt very manipulative. He was literally putting on a character, and he was using it as a scene to act out, it sounds like. Something else he would do is, you know, we went through something of a hazing process in theater class, we would have

to like run for no reason. We would have to like roll around on the floor and do these really artistic exercises that I guess were meant to break you down and then bond you. That reminds me not as much of a serious note, but I did hear that like, the director of the office had all of the cast members, like in before they shot the pilot episode, they all like worked out of the set in the office and pretended to actually be co-workers for a week, so that they could like come into character. So some bonding exercises are totally positive, and that's why we often say that we don't need to completely disaffiliate from every like cultish activity that we do, but when power is unchecked, that's when it starts to get sketchy. So it sounds like a

lot of these exercises were normal, but it sounds like with him the intention was off, like he wanted all of you kids to be eager and heed to him. He could always tell that I wasn't having it. He could tell that I didn't worship him and hang on his every word the way that the other students did, and so he would never cast me in the shows. He played favorites in a way that I found really troubling. I actually ended up dropping out of that theater program and finding a different major at my high school, which was kind of unheard of because I just couldn't tolerate him anymore. When I dropped out of my theater program in high school, I told myself like that was specific to that teacher, that program, and that's why I decided to enter a BFA theater program in college,

only to find out that it was the same thing. It was a total like thought control, time control, emotional control situation. I didn't have any freedom. I wasn't allowed to take other classes. I would have to wake up at 7 a.m. in the morning and do a whole day of classes that were totally pointless and a complete waste of my college education. I think it's also like you realize that maybe like I think there's so many red flags in that situation, but it also is like some people go to get their BFA and they realize like it's everything that they wanted and more, and I feel like you had this moment where you were just like, I want to create my own path, which is to say that a BFA wasn't for you and it isn't for everyone, but some people who start a BFA, they feel like

they're in the perfect place and you ultimately felt controlled, which is it's kind of like when you're in a bad relationship, you feel like something's off and you feel it in your gut that it isn't for you. You can also feel it in your gut that it is for you. Yes, you know, and ultimately you were like, I don't want people to tell me what to do. I want to do exactly what I want to do. And I remember when I quit my BFA theater program, the counselor or the guidance person that I was working with told me, you'll be back. They always come back. Well, you are back, aren't you? You're performing on a podcast. Yeah, but we created this shit ourselves. Yeah, exactly. I'm not acting 100% my authentic self. Yeah, me too. So in doing research for this episode,

we came across a story about a theater teacher in Ohio who was convicted on charges of voyeurism and sexual abuse. He'd been secretly videotaping his female students since 2002. Like, can you even imagine like those moments where you felt uncomfortable and you were changing if like your teacher, your leader was videotaping you? I can easily see how it could happen because you are so desperate for that person's approval. You worship them so much that you're not going to question their behavior. These students from the Ohio school, they remained anonymous when they reported the behavior, but they ultimately took the stand to say that he instilled fear in them and he made them wear tight leotards with no underwear. He forced his students to promise

their soul to him and he used physical force to scare them. One student testified that he put his hands around his throat and said, I won't kill you today. You know what's so wild is that theater and religion have this thing in common where it's like, we're doing this for something larger than ourselves. You need to prove that you're truly worthy of this larger than life thing by going along with whatever I say. I mean, it is no accident that so many actual cults pray on people who are interested in theater because they've been conditioned from an early age to go along with anything in pursuit of their dreams of being an artist. Yeah, exactly. And that like is shown so well in this story with this one teacher where thank God

he like got caught. He ultimately like ended up grooming one of the students until she was 18 and then molested her a month before graduation. And ultimately he was convicted, but the maximum sentence was 17 years and he was only sentenced to four. So that's a get the fuck out, but it was too late. Right. For a lot of those students, you know, like they went through that experience. And the culture of theater, it's the perfect condition for that to happen in. So after the break, we're going to speak to a hilarious and insightful authority on theater kid culture actor and tick tock star Tyler Joseph Ellis. Tyler, five minutes to curtain. Thank you. I've been wanting to say that. And you've been wanting to say it to someone who

actually gets it. Oh, yeah. I'm constantly walking on the streets of LA being like Los Angeles, 20 minutes to curtain and everybody is like, shut the fuck up. If I were to your stranger, I would say thank you 20. For those of you who don't know who you are. Yeah. Who are you? And what do you do? My name is Tyler Joseph Ellis. The three names because Tyler Ellis is a famous bag designer. So Tyler Joseph Ellis, I am a self-proclaimed theater kid, theater nerd. I went to USC for theater. I was a BA degree, though they do offer a BFA. I did not want a BFA. It was stressed. It stressed me out. What does the F stand for again? Fine arts. Oh, yes. So I was like fine. Yeah. Oh my God. Financial arts. I went to USC for theater. I had four

years of a theater degree. I graduated 2020. So the pandemic Lovato came here. Really? That's my favorite one. I use that all the time. You know, I so finished my last three months of my degree online and was in a standup comedy class and was and I always loved making people laugh. So I turned to TikTok and started realizing that a lot of these kids, especially in high schools, like didn't get to do the spring musical didn't get to, you know, do, which is huge. And I guess we'll get into it at some point of like how important those years are in terms of, you know, ensemble building and finding out that you love it, you know. So I found that as I was doing more theater content, despite my thinking it was niche at first, there was an entire community online that I think felt

very robbed of their, you know, theater experience. I can't even imagine it breaks my heart to think about. Because think about how, I mean, oh my gosh, those high school me every year, those high school musicals couldn't have been a bigger deal. Yeah. And for my whole family, I was just talking to someone earlier today about how when I was doing my freshman year production of Oklahoma in high school, my my sister when it was over was my younger sister three years younger than me was younger than me was way more sad than I was. Like it was like an entire family thing to getting to see it. And I come from a sports family. So my older brother was a lacrosse star. Like he was recruited for lacrosse into school for it. And I came in and was sort of this artless, you know,

gay art kid, my younger sister's now a musician and very gay. So we love it. No, we love it. The gays outnumber the streets. Which is how God intended. Yeah. So yeah, it was just, yeah, that's sort of what my my thing is. Like it just in and I think I found an audience online have been doing theater related comedy content for now two years. Yeah. And it's sort of led me to a full time career in content creation, at least for now, but I still consider myself an actor first. And I do musical theater. I love musical theater. What's your favorite musical? Sunday in the park with George. I don't do anything of what you guys are saying. I don't speak of my musical. Okay. And it's on time. Your favorite composer. Absolutely. I worship the ground.

That man was when he died in November. I really like lost it. It was like I passed away. I've never met him. It was my golden medium and I never top three sound time musicals. It has to be merely roll along. Come on. Follies and Sunday. I company and into the woods aren't in there just because I know them so well. And I think like they're always there. But yeah, right. You said that, right? Beautiful. Oh, the names alone. Yes. What, you know, coming of age as a theater kid. Yes. There's so many culty aspects. It's impossible to address all of them. But when we say the cult of theater kids, like what comes to mind for you? Yeah. I think like cast parties come to mind. Like pre show rituals come to mind. There's a lot of I mean, even warm ups together.

Like we, oh, I did community theater and high school as well because I just couldn't get it out. Couldn't get it out of school. I've got to also do it in the community. Yeah. No, I did the same thing. It was consuming. No, it was truly and especially considering I was I was a young little gay kid in the closet and you know, I was so scared of people thinking I was gay, even though you didn't have anyone to smell it on me. Oh, yeah. Would you grow up? I grew up in the Bay Area. So it's a very like accepting place, but I was still so petrified. And then once I got to high school, I hit the ground running because I didn't do theater in middle school. I was in a drama class quit the day after because I was like embarrassed. Yeah. I was like, oh, I don't want

people thinking I'm gay. And then once I was in high school, I had a better feeling of, you know, who I was. I did as many shows, programs, like this is actually my way of coming out. This is my way of coming out. But I was doing community theater. Those warm ups got even crazier because it's the theater kids and ever in all these high schoolers high schools like put together. Oh, so you get everyone, everyone, the crazy theater kids in the Bay Area are all in one place. In the whole region. And I feel like the Bay Area itself is like has like San Francisco vibes, which is like insanity. Like the East Bay Theater scene is not bad. There's some great shows going on there. And so what do you think is the cultiest theater kid warm up? Oh, one that comes to mind. We did

this. I did community theater as well. So it couldn't get enough. So it was a they had their rituals going and we actually had a thing called ritual, which is essentially like a secret Santa that after the show is closed, it's revealed, you know, who your ritual is essentially like a partner, like a partner. So it's like, Oh, this person had me the whole time. And I had no idea and that kind of thing. Yeah. So which is sweet. But the pretty sure warm up that we used to do, oh, I doubt they do it anymore. At least they've changed probably yet. But it used to be we would start really quiet and we would say, we're gonna kill pillage and burn. We're gonna kill pillage and burn. And then it would get yes. And then it would get louder until we were screaming it. Oh,

like blood curd. And then it'd be like places. And then you thank you places. And then you'd go on stage. Oh, my God, we're doing what South Pacific. We're doing like your children and we're children. We're children. And you're saying kill pillage and burn. And of course, I'm like, my blood boil thinking about these things about saying and kill and pillage and burn at all. Yeah. But also just the maybe just it was tradition. Yeah, partly of a part of what is always how things get swept under the rug under the word tradition. Oh, my God. And that's tail's oldest time. But yeah, absolutely. This activity really reflects the intensity of feeder kids and their zealotry and their finances. I mean, it's really dark. It's very dark.

And it's a super primal thing. I mean, yeah, theater, of course, what any scholar would have is been going on since the dawn of time. That's really good. Thank you. I'm the theater major. A lot of academics in the space loved touting the fact that they're studying something super ancient, which also is tradition. And that's when we get into, you know, like sexism in theater and racism in theater. And that is like a classic cult red flag when you harken back to something ancient and use that as an excuse to do that's how that's how we've always done this production. Do it's like when parents like abuse their kids, they're like, this is what we did to my yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Hey, your dues. There's a lot of that in theater. Huge. Oh,

you have to. Yes, got the ensemble. Did you ever have an experience where you like had to do anything in particular to pay your dues? Oh, my gosh, really interesting question. Well, not really, unless I'm but I'm also coming from a privileged perspective. I'm like a male in theater. There's fewer of us, especially growing up. So it's like leads lead roles were afforded to me, even though I probably had less talent than like half of the women and then they don't sound like that kind of thing. But I mean, the the community theater I went through also my high school, there's this seniority is held to a very high degree, high standard and the talent sort of almost kind of goes to the wayside sometimes with these decisions because like, well, this

girl has been in the musical all four years and has been doing that. So she's going to get, you know, a lot of politics, a lot of politics. Yeah, I see a lot of like sketches about like that seniority and like Peter when they're like, excuse me, or like they just like wait at the front of the room until everyone gets quiet. I'm just gonna wait. I'm just gonna wait. Yeah, I'll wait. There's the power. Oh my gosh, the power and the passing of the torch and especially in academic theater is huge. And I feel like people who lean into seniority or traditions like that are the ones who like, no offense, if you're all they're listening, like maybe like they don't have like their talent to fall back on. And so like that's the one thing they're like

grasping onto structure. It's like, Oh, I worked hard. I deserve this. But the thing is it's so subjective. And you want the show to be good. There's also theater kids that have never performed or don't perform. Like that's a whole I feel like that's like comp stand up comedy to like there's so many comedians. Yes, like literally never do stand up. Exactly. But it's their life still. And there's plenty of people that stage door these musicals like waiting outside and back and just to get an autograph on their playbill that don't even perform that they're they're just love the art form. Yeah, like the tech kids. Oh my gosh, that's a whole space. Yes, they're just like building the sets. And I remember in my high school, the tech kids worked

harder than ever. Yeah, they're staying their past. I love how they showed that in euphoria too. Oh, huge. I felt so seen by that entire subplot. I was like, Lexie putting on her own me also the budget that that high school has insane insane. Oh my gosh. Well, we will get into that culture before you which I'm sure is one. So let's talk about power a little bit more like did you ever have a cult leader so to speak in any of your theater communities and we should also mention like being going to theater school doing community theater going to your camp doing the all three that is what theater kids do. It is all encompassing and it's still a part of your life and huge part. I mean, like I have to come up with theater jokes theater. I mean, like I series on I have a whole

character called that theater bitch, which sort of makes fun of, you know, all of the horrible theater people that we grew up with like the ones that are insufferable. Yeah. So I have a whole and then the straight guy in theater and I also do a series on pre show announcements because they love being immersive like so I have an entire like cinematic universe. Yes, on this theater stuff. But yeah, the power I would it comes into play in every in all facets. So it's, you know, your high school theater teacher, a lot of people will talk about their high school theater teacher, either how transformative they were. And I mean, my high school theater teacher was the first adult figure I really came out to like that was a huge journey on my like self

discovery journey, like doing a scene from Angels in America while I was still in the closet, like playing Joe like so it was a huge she Kim Taylor shout out she was a huge reason of like why I am the way I am. And I still talk and I going back at the end of May to the community theater, I host their gala every year. So I'm like, I'm doing that. So I these directors and teachers, they they hold a lot of power. I was just going to ask it sounds like you had a positive experience and as an adult, you still look back on it as a positive experience. I'm one of the lucky few like if you ask most people, they'll be like my theater teacher was abusive, power hungry, didn't believe exactly what Amanda was saying. But I mean, once you get to college,

then you also have more of those people but in a far fiercer way because it's so controlled. So some of the teachers at USC were just like were worshiped. They were their opinions of every show were worshiped. So you could be so I kind of strayed away from those professors. I though I'm sure they were amazing teachers, I didn't want to get sucked into that. So I actually avoided some of these teachers. But they like you could be so proud of work that you did in a show. And then you hear that one of these teachers didn't like and everyone everyone's opinion suddenly shifts. It's like, it's like, oh, no, but you are the beacon of, you know, gas lighting. Yeah, it's literally gas lighting. You were initially like validated for your good work and you felt

good about it. And then later people's opinions shift. You're like, wait, was I crazy? And then you spend the entirety of a class the next day shitting on the show because it's part of your class, like talking about the show. And the subjectivity of multiple different art forms. But I think the community aspect makes theater even cultier. It's like part of what lends itself to the cultishness. 100%. There is no objective truth. Yes. Which is, I mean, you were talking about the academia episode of like how science is less likely to be culty because it's like you're in there's a process. Whereas in the humanities, it can get a little muddy ostensibly. This is my like, this, this is just my observation. Yeah. There were people who disagreed. But

that's what I think. Oh, I thought that really. Listeners, this, this is an opinion podcast for those of you in the comments. But I really liked that analysis because I was like, though it is a subjective analysis, just because I'm like, yeah, when there is less of a right or wrong and opinion and taste comes into play, especially when you're developing your taste as a theater artist, these higher up figures can absolutely skew you in good ways and bad. Like I, in my community theater, I fell in love with Steven Sondheim because they worship Steven Sondheim. And I'm like, if they worshiped Andrew Lloyd Webber, I'm sure I would have worshiped him. Totally. Yes. Religious words are used. Like you have to put your face in the process.

Oh, yes. Oh, wow. That got to give you chills. That is totally it. Yeah, absolutely. And what makes up religion or whatever in your Disney adult episode, I even a listener with the podcast. Absolutely. I think you're like in that one episode. In that one episode. Are you guys listening? And I think it absolutely applies to theater because it's absolutely ritual. It's community. It's like you're finding and especially if you're in a vulnerable position and you're an outcast. Yeah. It's a great place to fall. I think it's so sad. Like Amanda was telling us the story earlier in the episode about like how her high school teacher like was kind of like toxic towards her. And it's it comes from a jealousy almost with some teachers who didn't make it. And I feel

like you're like, like you're so driven and like, you know, like forward about what you want that it's like almost to some professors or teachers. I mean, they see that and they kind of want to like dim your light. Totally. I mean, part of it was youthful hubris. Like I should have been more respectful towards him, but I don't regret anything because he saw something in me that he couldn't control. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, have you had those any experiences like that? I mean, some of the teachers that I've loved other students in the class have had the exact same issues, but I guess I'm a lot more docile and I'm like, and I'm, you know, willing to, you know, try to have a lot of trust and faith and a lot of my like teachers and adult figures. I'm like willing. I'm a power bottom. I'm a power

bottom for when it comes to drama teachers. Oh my God, that is so true and so good. Put it in your bio. Put it in the bio, maybe. But I mean, I guess I was, I was like, yeah, I will absolutely do the scene. I would, I will take these notes, et cetera, et cetera, but some people, if you're less willing or just your mind works differently, I just fell into a lot of teachers where I think I agreed with their philosophy. Yeah. It sounds like you had this, these experiences in theater, in school and outside of school, you very much knew how to like play the game. So it's like you have to like pretend to listen even sometimes. I think that's part of it. And, and like understanding that everything's temporary and that like this theater teacher might not like your work and another one might.

And I think the theater programs I did like in the summers really grounded me because it introduced me to an entire different pool of students that these teachers can't play their favorites, you know, that you kind of get used to. And because it's a shorter period of time and you're meeting all these people at very different skill levels. So it was sort of, I was able to have a whole holistic view of the art form while understanding that like while I was in high school, where I was in community theater, I was like, yeah, what do you say goes? And when you ask me my opinion, I'll give it. But in college, you are encouraged to question a little bit more. And then there's the professors that resists that. And I think, I think, we hate, we hate here on this podcast.

I think a lot of those bitter professors come from, you know, failed actors. Failed is a horrible word to use as actors. Because none of us are dead. They didn't become as successful. I think it's a way better way to put it. But then there's the, the working actor, I went to USC, I was so lucky to go to a school like that, because there's a lot of working actors that are also professors, they're in LA, so they can do both. They were the most supportive ones. Because we understand how the industry works. We want you to work and we want you to, we want to help you and give you jobs to make a living to, because if there's any teacher, any professor, if they see passion in a student and they see, you know, promise, I would like to think they'd want to

invest in that. But I think with you, you were saying them stuffier, older professors, they can sometimes get really caught up in the fact that they have a powerful position in such a small facet of, you know, and speaking of like the pay or dues thing, I mean, I remember the one semester that I spent in Tish. I, I just, I felt like very trapped because there were just like certain protocols for like what you're supposed to do and how you're supposed to move through this program. And it was actually really hard to drop out like psychologically, but also physically, they were like, you can't leave until the end of the semester. And they were like, do you even think you're smart enough to do something outside of theater? It was like being a theater kid is in your blood.

Like do you, it was, was there a lot of paper or two, like you have to like jump through loopholes? Because I feel like it's definitely a sorority. It's like almost impossible because of like the logistics. We're leaving a cult. I was going to say you're quitting a gym. That would, no, I, yeah, that's why that's hard stuff. It's like they just give you the membership for free. You're like, please let me leave. Yeah, totally. It's like, I'll give you my first born if you let me leave. Yeah. But that's something we talk about a lot on this podcast is like exit costs. Oh, yeah. And there were these really high exit costs to leave. Okay. So at the end of every podcast episode, we ask whether or not we think this cult is a live your life. Oh, watch your back or get the

fuck out. What do you think theater kids is and why? It's mostly a live your life for me. Okay. Just because you are literally living my life and I think there's a lot of beauty in a community of people that have found performing or found love for live performance. I think they're but that gets kind of culty in and of itself just because of church. It's very ritualistic, but it's not really you guys always talk about is it hurting anyone? It can hurt people. So that's with the watch your back part because a lot of theater kids, especially, you know, children, kids that are in it are very emotionally fragile. Yes. That's what they are. That's often why we do it. We're vulnerable and we didn't find community in sports. We're not good at that kind

of thing. Yeah. Usually. I mean, I don't want to make it broad generalization, but yeah, I'm amazing. I'm certainly the cross player. I was and then I was a poll voucher in high school. That's a whole different story. Not very good one. I was a poll voucher. I could see you being like ready 10. Yeah, that was that was actually pillage. But I think where it's a watch your back is the people in power in terms of these theater, these drama kids, the drama teachers, as well as the ones that are big in their programs like fellow students that get the leads that, you know, Rachel Berry types, right? Yeah. That theater bitch types that I make fun of it. It can be devastating. Yeah. The impact that these young, impressionable and really sensitive kids can. I

mean, it can it can make or break. And I think that's where the watch your back thing happens. And that's why I think teachers aren't given especially drama teachers aren't given nearly enough credit, but also the ones that are bad apples aren't aren't like told to stop because, you know, they're they hold such possessions of power. They direct the musicals. So you have to treat them well because yeah, you know, and because like the talent has so much to do with literally who you are as a person. It's like what you look like what you sound like and how you act and you can train as much as you want. But there's only so much exactly. This is going to say choir. And so you don't. And so these kids is like if they don't get like the part, they'll be like,

oh, maybe I wasn't skinny enough or maybe I didn't look good enough. Your self worth right in there with my decisions. And that's where the watch your back happens. Is that like people forget that it's not you. It's like it's like the role wasn't for you. Yeah. So it's a watch your back, but I'm just such a theater kid where I'm like, oh, it's a, you know, it's a little bit of life. Yeah. Well, we're always, I mean, again, this is our bias. Like we're always gentler on the cults that we're still in. Yeah. Because you're in the club. You're in the club. And we don't want to admit to ourselves like, ooh, maybe this is sketchy. Yeah. I swear to God, like the dynamic that my toxic theater teacher and I had and like not getting cast in roles, but him making me audition

and jump through hoops and do all this stuff. The things that we don't. Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. The things he made me do the ridiculousity only then to know all along he wasn't going to cast me. That manipulation has literally followed me into my adulthood. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the, because we're it's, it's dance monkey dance and we will because it's an opportunity and we're chasing applause and we're chasing validation. So it's, it's, it's brutal. Do you think that there are like theater moms? Like parents? Oh, I also have a joke. I have so outside of this cult. I mean, think about, I have this series where I place my camera in the backseat of my car and then I'm in the driver's seat and it's like a theater mom being like, are you disappointed?

Like that kind of stuff. Like saying like flat, like that kind of thing. Just because yeah, I mean, I, because we see it with dads and sports, which is the coach of the team, especially, but like it's, it's not as psychological. I think it's the theater. Yeah. And because like theater is so much more flamboyant. Yeah. Oh my God. The way that theater is talked about is with so dramatic. The dramatics of it all. I mean, I carry around a tote bag that says you need a little drama in your life. Yeah. I'm trying to write a bit about like why I have roommates. I'm like, it's because I love the drama. Of course. If I lived alone, there would be no drama. There would be no drama. You carry around that tote bag with that quote on it is literally like an evangelical Christian

carrying around a tote bag with a proverb on it. Yeah. Absolutely. Like a Bible verse. Yes. It's like, instead of having a Bible verse in my Insta bio, I have like, I act, I sing, I gay. Oh my God. Have you watched Summer Heights High? Have I watched Summer Heights High? Of course. I miss Mr. G. Mr. G's room. Sit on the floor. Like absolutely. Absolutely. Oh my God. I never hang out with theater people anymore, but it is kind of cute. Yeah. It's like we're back. You know, we're back. Yeah. It's so fun. Okay. Thank you so much for being on the pod. This was so much fun. If people want to keep up with you and your cult, where can they do that? Where can they find you? You can find me on Tik Tok at Tyler Joseph Ellis and then on Instagram

at Tyler Joe 33 because Tyler Joseph Ellis is taken. Now that we've talked about the fun aspects of theater and the not so fun, actually scary aspects of theater kids and we've talked to our guest, what do you think the cult of theater kids falls into? Live your life, watch your back or get the fuck out. Classic. Watch your back. Classic. Watch your back. Yeah. I just think that inherently that dynamic between theater kid and theater teacher or theater director lends itself to at least the potential for cultish abuse. Yeah, I completely agree. I had all kinds of friends in high school. I was very much like a jump around kid. A floater. I was a floater and yeah, I could see the way that my friends idolized the theater teachers, the department, and luckily

they had stronger bonds in their friendships with their equals with kids of their own age. They didn't have an army like Flowerburg's freaking army. Exactly. Luckily, the kids who are strong enough to just create their own community are fine, but it's scary when someone with a huge ego who wanted to literally be famous and has a chip on their shoulder and has a chip on their shoulder then is in a place to influence like younger people, younger lives. I agree. It's a solid watch your back. Even when a theater teacher is beloved, they still wield a freakishly cult like amount of power just because of the nature of the dynamic. And of course, there are exceptions. I'm not saying that like every theater program is a get the fuck out. And also we do have to say

thank you to a lot of theater teachers because they provide community, they provide space for students and they're probably doing it underpaid. My middle school theater teacher completely like set up the trajectory for my future in the best way possible. But I also know that not everybody in our program felt that way about him. Yeah, it's just a tough place to be in because you have so much influence over like these kids and their future. Well, that's our show. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds like a cult is created, hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and Issa Medina. Kate Elizabeth is our editor. Our podcast studio is all things comedy and our theme music is by

Case of Cult. Thank you to our intern slash production assistant Noemi Griffin. Subscribe to Sounds Like a Cult wherever you get your podcasts. So you never miss an episode. And if you like our show, feel free to give us a rating and review on Spotify or Apple podcasts and check us out on Patreon at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.