Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Theo Von

Episode Date: September 22, 2026

What happens when your cool older stepbrother gets a mullet, a microphone, and millions of impressionable young men listening to him yap for three hours at a time? This week, Reese finds out while covering The Cult of Theo Von, the comedian-turned-podcast juggernaut whose whole brand is built on seeming like he has absolutely no brand at all. Joining her is Hysteria host and political commentator Erin Ryan (@eringloriaryan) to talk about Von’s particular place in the manosphere. They get into the power of playing dumb, why “authenticity” can be just as manufactured as professionalism, the parasocial appeal of the endless hangout podcast, and what happens when a guy who claims not to stand for much keeps handing his enormous platform to people who very much do. Maybe the cult leader isn’t always the guy pulling the strings, sometimes he’s just the mascot standing at the mouth of the funnel. Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles, @imanharirikia.  Pre-order Iman's new book, Once in a Timeline, here! Your pre-order helps make more books possible! Sounds Like A Cult is coming to you LIVE from The Elysian in LA on October 15th! Get tickets at soundslikeacult.com! Thank you to our sponsors! For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1Pro at DRINK https://AG1.com/CULT Find the card that fits your lifestyle and apply today at https://joinbilt.com/cult Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dustin from Sacred Symbols here. Have you ever wondered what it actually feels like to have a better laptop like the Dell XPS powered by Intel Core? With its premium thin and light design, it feels smooth in your hands. The responsive touchscreen keeps things fast and precise for easy scrolling and swiping. And with long-lasting battery life, you get non-stop energy to keep working without constantly hunting for a charger. Built for those who want better.

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your first subscription order of AG1 NextGen or AG1 Pro at Drinkag1.com slash cult. That's drinkag1.com slash cult. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. By presenting him as sort of this like goofy, offee, dummy guy who's talking candidly about his mental health, but he's also like saying the unword.

He sort of is a gateway drug to stuff that's a lot worse. He's almost a mascot, and he just kind of gets to stand in the middle and point to all the bullshit around him. And I think, like a lot of men, he gets to live his life without really asserting any kind of stance or standing for anything specific. He's sort of like the big part of the funnel into more toxic parts of the mannospheric. This is Sounds Like a Cult. A show about the modern day cults.

all follow. I am Reese Oliver, sounds like a cult's resident rhetoric scholar. Every week on the show, we discuss a different group of guru that puts the cult in culture from celebrity wellness brands to SoulCycle to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back, or get the fuck out. Because we don't want to lump all cults together, some of them, like being obsessed with bad bunny or being really into your fantasy football league, those aren't quite the same thing as being part of the anti-vaxxer movement and the cult of conversion therapy. This week, we are talking about some sad little lost boys who don't want

to grow up and are just gabbing into the wind here, and we're going to decide for ourselves where along this spectrum these boys follow you and I, we're talking about the cult of Theo Vaughn today, folks. Now, we have kind of danced around Theo Vaughn, you know, Colpoys Summer, looking at you podcasters, Manosphere. But now we're looking him dead in the eyes, baby. We are getting into the cold, hard truth of how some Dufus from MTV ended up interviewing the President of the United States. But, I mean, who are we kidding? It's 2026. That's not that far ever reach, considering said president was himself a reality TV star. And also, is probably most affectionately known for his 15 seconds in Homolen, too. So maybe not that

crazy. Anywho, let's get into some history of the cult. And this is a long history, folks, because Theo Vaughan for being a Manosphere influencer is fucking old. Guys, Theo Vaughan is old and stale. He is a 46th. And if you're in your 40s listening to this, that is honestly, that's no shade. I cannot wait to be in my 40s. And I honestly don't. I don't think being in your 40s is old. I think being in your 40s is old to have that mullet and be talking like Theo Vaughan is. Anywho. He is known for said mullet and his southern drawl, which makes sense as he is from a small town in Louisiana called Covington, just north of New Orleans.

His government name is Theodore Capitani Von Karnatowski III. Thank you very much. I don't know why he doesn't go by that. I think that's way cooler than Theo Vaughn. And also, Vaughn, like, that's not the name. That's the least name part of your name. Why would you go with that, silly? His parents are Polish in Nicaraguan, and he's talked about having it pretty rough growing up.

He says he was emancipated at 14 and has been on his own ever since. In his 20s, he bounced around colleges in South Louisiana and eventually graduated from the University of New Orleans in 2011. Theo then got his start on MTV, starring on Road Rules and The Challenge as Southern Dushbag. These were a little bit before my time, so I haven't actually seen him on these shows. But as I'll mention later, he's a name that's been floating around since my childhood because of these shows. His brand was Southern guy who was different and kind of self-deprecating. He didn't really fit in with all of his fellow castmates. You know, he's not like other boys.

He made a name for himself spouting off random and edgy things. God, this is all so MTV. He was also on Comedy Central shows and has been kind of a barnacle on the comedy scene for many a year. Theo launched his podcast this past weekend in 2016, and according to one of the media bias charts that I found online, the show leans right, if you were wondering, for all the people who like to claim neutrality for these podcast bros, they're never neutral.

Look at a media bias chart. Do some research. It is one of the most popular podcasts out there. Spotify ranked it, the second most popular podcast of 2025, right behind his buddy Joe Rogan, and just eking it out barely ahead of Smash It Sounds Like a Cool. Theo Vaughan is very open about his substance abuse issues and trauma from his childhood.

Talks about it on the podcast frequently. This is one of the things that kind of gives him some credibility as being an authentic, maybe even lovable guy, relatable guy, I should say. The podcast is a similar format to other broadcasts out there that is lazy. Not a lot of editing, really long meandering interviews with pretty much anyone who will sit down with him, which is most people because his name is famous. He says his guests are more regular people, though. I don't really know.

I think maybe a slightly less star-studded cast than like a Rogan, but I think Theo himself is a stand-in for the regular-dealer guy. I don't think he's really there to talk to regular-decular guys. He is a little bit all over the place, a little bit of no moral compass, no backbone. He'll talk to environmental activist Aaron Brockovich or a documentary in Ken Burns, and then a few weeks later, canceled comedian Matt Rife or Tucker Carlson will be on. And it's just so whiplash. It is really indicative of kind of the average person's sampling of cultural commentary and kind of what they pick up on.

But it also really demonstrates to me that Theo sees himself kind of as more of an entertainer and more of a clown than actually someone who is honing or building a platform with which he actually wants to say or establish any kind of viewpoint, very beastly in that he's just trying to rein in as much as he can. As I mentioned before, Theo Vaughn positions himself as being fairly apolitical so that way he can get. as many viewers as possible. But his guests on the podcast are not apolitical in 2024. He had Donald Trump on the podcast, along with a bunch of other podcasters. Theo and Trump talked about addiction and the opioid epidemic. Two topics we know that Donald Trump handles with the utmost grace intact as he does every...

I can't say it. Sorry. I can't even ingest. Having Trump in advance on this past weekend allowed Vaughn's audience to connect to the candidates on a personal level. According to the Hollywood reporter, it kind of gave them the pair of, social look behind the curtain that we for some reason want from our politicians nowadays?

I don't know. I kind of think I hired you to do a job for me. I don't really want to hear you shooting the shit with Theo Vaughn guy. Not really for me. Kamala Harris and Tim Walls declined an invite, according to the New York Times. But billionaire Mark Cuban did go on and did campaign for the Dems. Kind of took one for the team there, Mark Cuban as he does. Since attending the inauguration of the president he undoubtedly helped to elect, Theo von has since walked back his support because he realized that, hmm, maybe it's not really that popular to support a guy who, like, hates most of the country he's running. Starting with the mass deportations that Trump campaigned on, Thiavon didn't really love the horrifying videos of DHS posted online of deportations, according to NBC

news. And as of late, he is not super happy with Trump's coverage and Trump's opinions and Trump's actions, re the war in Iran. In April 2026, he called Trump's actions, unbelievable and fucking baffling, according to an article from The Daily Beast. But I don't know if you guys are familiar with the concept of like, leopards eat my face. Leopards ate my face is a subreddit, but it refers to this kind of trope or joke where it's like, I never thought the leopards would eat my face,

sob's woman who voted for the leopards eating people's faces party. It kind of gives that where it's like, oh no, consequences of my actions. Ah, I had so much fun sawing, but now I've got a reap. Fuck, dude. Yeah, Theo, buddy, you did that. Actions have consequences and you actually can't just put whatever out into the shitstorm of the internet and have no. nothing blowback at you. Sorry, Guy. And the thing that annoys me most is that he doesn't even

have anything specific to say of his own. He's just like every other grifter, brocaster, brocaster. He's not even working any kind of specific angle. His style is playing dumb, which is somehow endearing to millions of people. He's got this huge reach with millions of followers across social media. Time has named him one of the top 100 creators of 2025. Yeah, I don't know. He's kind of just kid brother Joe Rogan. One step behind him, little shittier done somehow, but, It's very much trying to emulate his podcasting style. Although, some trouble in paradise, seems like there can only be room for one at the top. Rogan, as of late, has said that Theo Vaughn is going crazy from his antidepressants

and that Vaughn should, quote, just chill out, according to Newsweek, which is always wanted to take the advice of just chill out from Rogan, who literally always looks like any of his veins are about to explode at any given second. Theo Vaughn chats with a lot of men, you guys. According to the New York Times, less than 20% of guests were women. from April 2024 to April 2025. Can you imagine how many brain cells you lose listening to that show? My God.

And with that, I'm so excited to gain some brain cells by talking about Theo Fon. It is time to get into our interview for today. I am so excited, you guys. Here to join me is Aaron Ryan, writer and political commentator. She is the fabulous host of Hysteria from Crooked Media, which is all about news and topics that affect women's lives. Dustin from Sacred Symbols here, you know when you're in the middle of a heavy recording session, editing a show, or just trying to get real work done on the go, and your laptop starts slowing down

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Are you bad at eating your vegetables? I know I can be, especially when not. I want to eat is chocolate and gummy candy in September and October, which is why AG1 can be such a delightful addition to your life. It is a daily health drink with a multivitamin, pre-in probiotics, superfoods, and antioxidants. I know I feel so much better when I feel like a capable adult who has taken care of myself, and AG1 is perfect for helping me get there. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 NextGen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com slash cult. That's drinkag1.com slash cult. Aaron, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me.

Of course. Would you please introduce yourself to our listeners? Sure. My name is Aaron Ryan. I am currently the host of Crooked Media's Hysteria podcast and the writer, creator, host of Hysteria's little sub video series that turned into a podcast series called This Fucking Guy. So I spend a lot of time reading about people that I think are making America worse, writing about people I think are making America worse. And then also, of course, following the news, it's all about people making America worse. And then before I was working at Crooked Media, I was a writer. I was at The Daily Beast. I covered politics, feminism, gender, culture, the way that all those things kind of overlap. It's a busy job in the Trump era. And before that, I was working at a blog called Jezebel.

This was like literally more than 10 years ago at this point. But Jezebel did a lot of engagement. aging with like the culture and how it relates to women. And back in the day when I was working there, believe it or not, it was sort of like pickup culture was the new thing that the terrible men were doing. And so it's been interesting throughout my career to see these different waves of male aimed media that sort of encourage the worst of their fans. So I'm excited to talk about this topic today. Yeah.

I am super excited as well. Your background is so cool and interesting. you have really been doing the dirty work for us for a very long time. And I can't thank you enough because as much as we like to talk about this fucking guy here and there, I feel like we do ultimately, it sounds like a cult, have the luxury of like, okay, this week we're going to talk about bath bombs or something like that. But the real hard hitting stuff, I'm excited to get into some of it today. I would like to hear first, what was your introduction to Theo Vaughn? You know what? I was addicted to MTV in the Y2K era. That's when I came of age. And so,

So I watched him on road rules, like those reality competition shows that sort of preceded like the amazing race and Love Island, you know, MTV at the time was kind of the only place to find shows where a bunch of attractive people between 18 and 25 were thrown into a situation together and asked to complete challenges. And I remember watching him on that and thinking he was extremely stupid. Like even back then, I was like, this is a really stupid person. But it was also kind of like played for laughs and he had an awareness of where he fell. He wasn't like out there misusing words on purpose. He was always like self-deprecating about the fact that his role that he played was kind of like

the dumb one. But he also won a couple of the years. So that was my first introduction to him. So it was surprising to me when I like started hearing about him as a successful podcast host because I thought what could he possibly have to say that people would want to hear? What is bouncing between those two brain cells? Only God knows. Yeah, the stupid man on reality show trope is so interesting to me,

or just stupid man in media in general, is very interesting to me because I feel like men are gifted this privilege of kind of getting to have their cake and eat it to in terms of having a lot of control over how stupid they come across, even when it is genuine. Because as long as they are self-deprecating about it, it can kind of just be like a quirky cute character trait thing. It doesn't really work that way for women. I feel like we're kind of just working the other direction to constantly make sure,

that we are not misunderstood. Yeah, and I think like the stupid guy trope, he also has granted infinite forgiveness. So he can like mess up over and over again as long as he comes back and is like, oh, shucks. Well, I think differently now. Right. It's part of his little daily strip that gets to play on in the eternity of MTV World and now podcast world every week because he just gets to sit and play stupid and play listener.

So I am wondering, I suppose, both back in the day and now, who, are Theo Vaughan's cult members? And how have those people evolved if they have? I think that Theo Vaughn's audience has always been young men who crave like an older stepbrother figure. Like he's not like a brother figure. He's like an older stepbrother. He'll buy you beer. He'll like let you try one of his cigarettes and be like, don't tell mom. You know, he's this sort of like troublemaking scamp type guy who's always having a good time. He's always trying to stay like he's got a sunniness to him even when he's like upset. And he loves like adventure and rough housing and kind of very like lowest common denominator stuff. I think that the cult of the Ovan, if there is a cult of the Ovon, well, it's young men.

I think it's 90% of his listenership are men and 75% of them are under 35. So it is young men. And I think a lot of them look to him as an example of what it's okay to be. rather than some like the lowest common up denominator sort of aspirational because look at this guy, he's not really that smart. He doesn't really read that much. He didn't go to a fancy college. He didn't grow up rich. But yet look at him. He's like so loved. He's so adored. So I think that Vaughn's success serves as like an apology structure for men who relate to it. If that makes any sense. Oh, for sure. It's the ultimate like, look, it'll all be okay. This guy has been doing the same thing for like 20 years and never

grew up and he's somehow kind of okay and coasting through it and still popular and loved. So that must be an option for me too. That is something that I find weird about Theo Vaughan because I was not very cognizant for the first wave of Theo Vaughan popularity. I was very young. But I do remember hearing his name thrown around a lot and now hearing him be kind of thrown back into circulation with the podcast world, I was like, Theo Vaughan, isn't that guy from like 10, 15 years ago? And to hear that he's still making content for teenage boys like an overgrown Paul brother. Like, I think it's really sad. You know what's crazy about Theo Vaughn when I was like doing some just basic research just to make sure I was like brushed up on some facts. He's the same age as the secretary of defense. Him and Pete Hegseth are the same age.

He's like 46, right? He's 46. He's in his late 40s. And like, look, I reject this notion that at a certain age, you have to like be a certain way or you have to dress a certain way or whatever. I reject that. I think that sucks. But I also think that it's reasonable to expect that as you get older, you gain wisdom, you gain experience and you change based on that wisdom and experience. And so to have someone who's 46 years old acting like he's 21 and competing on road rules alongside Sean Duffy or whatever, there's something like stunted about it that feels inappropriate and not necessarily aspirational. Yeah. It feels very, how do you do fellow kids? Like he's very trapped in his Y2K era. I feel like if we were to maybe cut off the mullet, it would like unleash something within him and he would age 20 years before our eyes.

Like you said, I agree with you. I don't think we should be putting an age on fashion statements, but I think the mullet needs to fucking go. Sorry. He's had it for so long that it like wasn't in style. It came back in style. It went out of style and now it's back in style again. We are doing too many oscillations. We need to cycle with the cycle buddy. So I'm wondering, since he's been kind of such a hallmark of boy. culture, but also kind of just like rotting in the background for the past 10 years. At this point, where does Theo Vaughan fit into the Manosphere? Well, I think something that's different about Theo Vaughn that is both insidious and not insidious, because he's not like as toxic as some of the more extreme voices on the Manosphere. I would never like group him with Andrew Tate. You know, he might interview Andrew Tate, but I wouldn't put them in the same category. I think what is insidious about Theo Vaughn is, you know,

I've listened to several episodes of his show. It hurt my brain. But there's something. very charming and he can actually be kind of funny on the fly in his interviews. Like he sometimes has very funny comebacks. Like when he interviewed Sam Altman, the CEO of Open AI, he was like legitimately terrified of AI and it was very, it came across as like really funny. So he can be like compelling. He's fun to watch. Like he seems like this type of person that if, you know, I was stuck with him on an airplane sitting next to him on an airplane, I wouldn't be like annoyed by him. So I think that the place he fits in, it's he's sort of like the big part of the funnel into more toxic parts of the mannosphere. So like I said, he's interviewed Jake Paul on his show, who is, I think, quite a bit more

toxic than a Theo Vaughan type character. But through Theo Vaughan, Theo Vaughan's fans get introduced to people that are much more evil. And they get introduced to them in a way that is presented with like just complete credulity. Like, he's not a journalist and he doesn't push back on crazy things that people say. He appears on other podcasts like Joe Rogan's podcast, and they sort of are in the same ecosystem where it's like a dumb older stepbrother sitting on a couch and like impressing you. But then when you look into it what they're saying, you're like, wait a minute, this person was completely full of shit. So that's kind of where he fits. He's one of the most popular as well. I think he's in the top five podcast consistently. He's got millions and millions of followers on basically every social media

platform and his Bon Moths and his funny little asides are often separated from the original context and put over different sounds on TikTok. So he's often like stripped of context and put in different arenas and made to be funny in those ways too. And so that kind of like sands down the more the actual insidious things about him by presenting him as sort of this like goofy, offee, dummy guy who's making fun of his like sexual anxiety and talking candidly about his mental health. But he's also like saying the N-word, you know? So I think like he sort of is a gateway drug to stuff that's a lot worse. Yes, he's all the smoke and mirrors at the beginning, which is so dangerous. He's almost a mascot. And he just kind of gets to stand in the middle and point to all the bullshit around him. And I think

like a lot of men, he gets to live his life without really asserting any kind of stance or standing for anything specific. And I think that that's scummy. Obviously, scummy and culty. Because, you know, friend to all as a friend to none as far as I and many others are concerned. And hearing you talk all of this, like, he can be a funny, charming guy. And I do know this. I have also seen, like, a lot of sound bites, audio clips taken from his show out of context. And I'm like, oh, why are we laughing at Theo Von? I thought we didn't like Theo Von.

And it does give very, if this guy approached me and his arm was in a sling and he needed help loading his boat onto his tan VW Beetle, maybe I would help him. Not to, like, fully make a Ted Bundy comparison. But, you know, it feels a little insidious. I just, I don't quite know what his goal is and where his heads at. It seems very Mr. Beastly and that his goal is nothing except for exposure. And it's kind of whoever he needs to sit next to to make that happen and make us few waves while doing it as possible great. I am interested to see as time goes on because he is backpedaling on a lot of the Trump support and like you were talking about the Sam Altman interview. It seems like he is maybe, I don't

know. I don't want to say like smarter than his audience or like finding himself. I think he might have trapped himself a little bit where he's at a point where maybe now when he has more neutral leaning opinions, I would be interested to see how that would like it's a little cult leader being controlled by their col at this point maybe. That has been really interesting. Yeah. I think that he is smarter than he lets on though. Like he did an interview with Matt Rife not long ago when I listened to it and Matt Rife commented that he was really good at cold reading. He was just like reading off a piece of paper, Theo Bonn was. And he was like a great cold reader. And I don't think you can be super duper dumb and also be really good at reading out loud. I just, I just don't think

that those two things work together. And his thing has always been like authenticity. You know, like I'm authentic. This is like the real me versus, you know, like a journalist trying to project objectivity and hiding their own personal feelings about things or not saying everything that they know about something because they can't because of journalistic rules. I think that we're living in an age now where people interpret professionalism and journalistic objectivity as a form of fakeness, which I don't totally agree with, but I understand the logic. So then you have somebody like the Ovan who presents a sort of image that everything you're seeing from him, what you see is what you get, nothing fake. This is all real. This is the real me. I tell you everything. And I think that

what is missing in the conversation about him and a lot of other Manosphere people is that it's It's also contrived. Like, anybody living a public life in any way has to be, like, a little bit contrived. Yes, there's just substantially less effort behind it. Or, I mean, effort to make it look effortless, which is dangerous and spooky. He's definitely a Trump-era podcaster. The things that Donald Trump has done to the podcasting world, he should never be forgiven for. Dustin from Sacred Symbols here, you know when you're in the middle of a heavy recording session, editing a show, or just trying to get real work done on

the go and your laptop starts slowing down or burning up in your lap. It's the worst. So what does it actually feel like to switch over to a better laptop like the Dell XPS powered by Intel Core? For starters, it's built with a premium design that's incredibly thin and light. So it feels smooth, meaning far less weight on your shoulders when you're packing up for travel. Then you open it up and the responsive touchscreen makes scrolling, zooming, and swiping feel completely fast and precise. Everything just flows. Best of all, with its long-lasting battery, life, it feels like non-stop energy. You get a better way to work without being chained to a charger all day. Built for those who want better. The Dell XPS built for you. When WestJat first took

flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion. Inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to Westjetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. So you've talked about it a little bit, but what do you think sets Theo Vaughan apart as a cult leader of sorts if you have anything else to add on that? I think the thing that sets him apart is his audience and his success and what his audience and what his success says about what is missing in the lives of young men. Because I think

that if all young men, if Theo Vaughan's entire audience, we're getting all of their social, emotional, and intellectual needs met, they wouldn't need to spend hours per week listening to a podcast that sounds as though there was no preparation done for it. You know, like, it's a hang podcast. You listen to it so you don't feel like you're alone. And the same thing with Joe Rogan. Like, you know, not everything is for me, and that's totally fine. I don't want everything to be for me.

But I think that there's a specific type of podcast that it is designed with the idea of someone who has many, many hours alone every week. And I know I'm coming across, like, I feel very, like, sympathetic to his audience, and I actually kind of do. But I also think that it tries to present this shortcut to, like, male fulfillment that passes over a lot of things that require work. Like, devoting yourself to reading, being informed, sometimes having a little bit of friction with people you're talking with when they say something that's, like, not right. And working on maturing as a human being and as a man, I think he presents this idea that you just don't have to do any of that. and you can still, like, be happy and have a good life. Yeah, that's a really good point.

It's very the end point of convenience culture, wherein you can get your news and your brotherly advice and your friendships and your girl advice and everything all from one guy yapping on your computer and you don't have to do any of the work of filtering through any of the sources to make sure any of it's accurate. And, you know, neither do they because they don't claim to have any kind of authority that's on you for getting all your information from them. An us versus them dichotomy thrives in most cults. In this case, who would you say is the us and who would you say is the them? You mentioned earlier that this is very much a Trump-era podcast, and I think something that is a through line through a lot of Trump-era podcasts, is this idea that comedy is under attack,

that like the PC police are going to come and cancel you, cancel culture, and everybody's too sensitive and we can't laugh about anything. We can't even have fun anymore. And I think that podcasts like a Joe Rogan, you know, a lot of, the sort of like bro comedians, some of whom I actually really like. Like, I think Shane Gillis is a very talented comedian. Like, I enjoy his stand-up. A lot of times I'll watch him and I'll say, like, I don't agree with this, but I'm laughing.

I think that's the sign of like a truly good comic. But I think that at the core of it is this notion that us, like the young guys who just want to make AIDS jokes and say racial slurs and not have anyone get offended, it's us and the way that we prefer to live and the things that make us laugh versus everyone who thinks that maybe we should go through life with a little bit more reflection and understanding and empathy for other people who might not like what we have to say. And to be disagreed with is not the same thing as being attacked. But I think when you're a young person and you're uninformed, to feel as though you're part of a group of people that are just like, yes, you're right. You're

right. What you're doing is right. And those people are wrong. It's actually okay to say racial slurs if you're a white person. And it's actually okay to like hang out with a bunch of like brain damaged MMA people who are like peddling real dangerous vaccine misinformation. Like it's okay. All of these things are okay. And the people outside want to take your fun away. It's sort of like the ethos at the center of like a bad beer commercial where it's like you are the cool guy just trying to hang out with your bros and like your mean wife or your mean girlfriend is trying to stop you from having fun. It almost feels like not to be all Freudian, but it almost seems like at the core is like I don't want a mean mommy to stop me from having fun. I'm going to just have fun with my boys and goof around.

That's absolutely what it is. It's, I just want to fuck and suck the titty and eat and do exactly what I want and get all the instant gratification. And I'm not interested in being told how to live my life with any sort of mindfulness. It's usually just like the mere suggestion that they partake in more thought. It also reminds me a little bit of like Disney's Fantasia, you know, the one with like Mickey Mouse, the Sorcer's Apprentice and he makes too many brooms. And all of a sudden at the end, he's like, fuck, these brooms are overwhelming me. I feel like a lot of Manosphere podcasters are a bit like that character. And I think Theo Vaughan is among them. And I think he's kind of at a point now where he's seeing the other end of the pipeline. Like he put a bunch of stuff in and now he's seeing

what's coming out. And he kind of is not exactly happy about everything that's come out. But the way to prevent bad stuff from coming out is to put a little bit more thought into what you put in. And I don't know that he's there yet. He does seem like contrite. I don't want to talk to talk about him like he's Satan. I think that he said some really interesting things that most high school freshmen realized when they were 14. But like when he went on a rant on Joe Rogan about how he thought that maybe rich people wouldn't be so cavalier about war if it were their sons going, it's like, thank you. I was 12 when I knew this. You know, like, so it's not all deliberate is what I mean. It's everything that's happening as a result of what he's done are not things that he intended

to happen. But rather than thinking maybe I should be a little bit more careful and move a little bit more intention and speak more with intention and interview with a little bit more teeth. And this will stop. He just kind of carries on because it's brought him so much success. And I think it's really difficult because as someone who's like coming up in the content creation world or trying to, it can be really hard because only so many opportunities come your way. And it can be difficult to have a backbone and to be like, no, I'm turning away your thousands of dollars because I think your company's evil or whatever. But to be theobon and it's like, okay, you got your start on MTV like 30 years ago being a jackass. You only have a platform now and all you have is like time,

responsibility and money to be a good person. And it's still just, no, I'm going to do the bare minimum path of absolute least resistance and just like let the shitstorm envelop me and become one with it. Yeah. I mean, I would also add like if you listen to his show, which I'm sure you have plenty, it's like, you know, his like happy little chat sessions with like an array of people, some of whom are kind of cool. Like, you know, he's talked to Bernie Sanders, to be fair. Some of whom are like, who the fuck is, well, you know, Jake Paul and Matt Rife and people that I really wouldn't want to spend a couple hours around, but again, not for me. But in between these conversations are just wall-to-all ads for crypto and gambling markets and prediction markets and things that young men

actually really shouldn't be engaging with. Like if your brain is not fully formed, if you're a young person, crypto is not necessarily something that is going to be great. It's kind of scammy. And prediction markets and like placing bets on sports like those are things that I don't think young men should be encouraged or funneled toward gambling addiction is a serious problem and a lot of manosphere content including the ovan and they have no problem with the dump truck full of money that Kalshi or you know, polymarket is backing up to their house so that they read these bespoke ads that are like yeah, I'm like you're cool older stepbrother. I buy you beer and like everybody's doing crypto. Come on. It's normal. We're all doing it. I don't want it to be normalized because I do think that

part of, and I'm sure we'll get into this more, but I think part of the like crisis around young men is that their vices that are very alienating are being encouraged in them and they have better access to things that bring them shame than ever before. And so they're driven into these little communities that either validate or normalize what they're doing. And I'm talking about like none of these things should be illegal in my opinion. But I think like, you know, online pornography, gambling type activity, things that if you find yourself completely unable to stop doing it, if you feel like compelled to do it, it's very shameful to be like, I have a gambling addiction. I'm a 22 year old boy with a gambling addiction. Like so I think that the real darkness isn't necessarily in what he says or, you know,

just a duffy guy with like a Louisiana accent, having a chill out session with a, uh, Senator John Kennedy, who is like one of the worst people in the entire Senate. It's like, yeah, we're just dudes hanging out and being dudes. And here's what dudes do when they're not hanging out. They gamble. They open up a crypto wallet. Yeah. I don't even know what to say to all of that.

I'm just scared. I'm just scared and I don't like it. And the gambling thing really does scare me because even down to like the blind boxes for girls, obviously I think like the betting and the draft kings and all of that is way more insidious. Have you ever spoken to somebody like a psychiatrist or mental health professional who treats different forms of addiction or sickness. Like, I knew somebody who was a psychiatrist, and I asked her one time what the most difficult type of compulsive behavior was for her to treat. And she said,

anorexia and gambling addiction. Like, it is really, really hard to cure somebody who has a gambling addiction. It's harder than, like, alcoholism. You know, Theo Vaughn has been open about his struggles with cocaine use in the past. And I actually find that commendable that he's been open about his mental health. He's been open about his struggles with addiction. But also, like, how can you be somebody who had struggled with cocaine addiction? And then during commercial breaks, you're encouraging your audience to engage in a highly addictive activity. Yeah, I think the back and forth. And also, like, him having Donald Trump on to talk about, like, the opioid crisis. And just not at all a responsible handling of that topic for someone who I think has the opportunity

to do something really cool with it. And I really like what you said about the shame grouping people together because I do think that that is so much of what creates all of these sub-manosphere cults. And I think that consuming the content almost kind of becomes a gamble in itself because it is so big and varied. He could be interviewing anyone any day and you're just going to keep watching until something sticks in your brain and you can run with it. So I'm wondering, what are the most devastating effects of this cult? And on the flip side, what are any positive impacts if there or any. Well, his being open about his addiction and mental illness, I think is super helpful. I think normalizing men talking about that with each other is great. But I think that the most insidious thing

is that, you know, we're talking about a male loneliness epidemic. I think that part of this is like a male uselessness epidemic. And that's not to say that men are useless. It's just that in modern society, when women go to college and bigger numbers than men, when women do most of the child care, when women are like more trustworthy members of the community, I think men struggle to feel. I think men struggle to figure out where they fit in. And where they should fit into a culture where women are succeeding this much is to step up to what women need and be partners to them in a way that's actually helpful. There's an economist who's studied a way to increase the birth rate. Claudia Golden is her name. And she found that in societies where men do less work around the house and do less child

rearing, their birth rate is dropping faster than everywhere else. Right. But in order for men to feel like they have a place, they have to accept that their place is to do a little bit. more of the work that they maybe would have traditionally seen their own mothers do and to be more present emotionally and to put in more effort to social relationships and sometimes being annoyed by having to stand up, you know, to be there for other people in your community. I think like the cost of having a village is sometimes you're just annoyed and you have to do things that you don't want to do. Right. That's life. That's interacting with other people. Sorry. That's life. Exactly. Exactly. But like if you just have a podcast you can listen to, you don't have to do anything to maintain that

friendship. You feel like the experience of having a friend. And like, I host a podcast. I love that there are people who have a parisocial relationship with my show and with content that I've made. I like that. But I also think that my listenership, I think is like 75% female. And I know that most of them are probably going out and also making their own friends or having conversations with their friends and doing things out in the real world. I think the most insidious thing about the manosphere is that the problems that young men cite, feeling economically non-viable, not understanding. like how to be good husbands and partners, those things just get exacerbated by behaviors that those podcasts encourage. I think the gambling and crypto stuff is not a real turn on for a lot of

young women. You know, young women who are looking to find a mate are not like, I really want a guy who like gambles on sports a lot and is super into crypto. It's like you can do those things, but I don't think that's like, that's not top of mind for women. And so I think that like it's going to drive people further and further into these places where they are deeply on happy if they're not living well-rounded lives. I think it's just going to drive men to be sadder and sadder and to drive men and women apart more and more. And, you know, not that you need a mate to be happy in life, but I think a lot of people would like to have a marriage and a family and not to be overdramatic, but I think a Theo Vaughan type podcast doesn't really push men to

become who they need to become if they want to have those things. Beautifully put, wonderfully said. All we want are functional adults. The bar is really not that high. It's almost as if gender roles hurt men too. It's crazy. It's wild. I saw online the other day, someone referring to a statistic that said something about all of the I hate my wife jokes, which obviously we hate and are very overplayed, but especially in light of the fact that like men empirically only say and it is only true that having a wife vastly improves their life by any and all standards. So it's just this very, like, yes, we make your life better and we will do all of this and whatever. All we are asking is that you, step up to the plate and meet us here. And instead, they're like, actually, I think I don't want to play

this game anymore because now the rules are no longer skewed in my favor. And there's like a socialist kind of argument, too, where I think imagining that it's women that are responsible for keeping you down or for alienating you and not the capitalist system that views you as completely exploitable and does not value work and does not reward labor instead funnels everything that you generate as a worker up to the very top and therefore removes the economic viability of young men who are feeling disenfranchised. It's literally a system that is designed to drain the life out of the lower class until all the blood has been sucked away. And it is that deep. You know, these shows allow people to get engaged with content that allows them to not think deeply about the fact that like the system

that we're living in is so deeply exploitative of everybody, including young men, especially young men. And now they're feeling worthless and useless and lonely and unequipped to like move through the world because there's no path toward them being a provider, which is what they have been told that they're supposed to be. And I mean, honestly, we have to burn the whole system down. We have to burn the whole fucking thing down. We do, unfortunately. It's just such a zoom in when men need to be zooming out and looking anywhere but deeper into their own psyche. And it's kind of like I was talking to my therapist the other week about this. I told her, I feel in a lot of ways like a camera that has been observing the whole world my entire

life. And she said that she thinks what a lot of women feel that way and a lot of women tend to just feel passive or observational. And that the trick for us would be what would happen if we were to turn that camera around so we were facing us? And like, what doors would that open? And I would like to give every man with a podcast the advice to do the exact fucking opposite. I think you guys are too introspective. I would pay you all to actually think about somebody else's thoughts for a chance. And I guess kind of on that note, what advice would you give to someone trying to escape the cult of Theo Vaughan? Read more books.

It's very frustrating to watch people who should be old enough to know better, slowly have realizations. that they should have had a long time ago. If they read books, they would be so much further ahead. I feel like people who like Theo Vaughan to their credit. And I think Joe Rogan too. I think Joe Rogan does this thing where he leads interviews with curiosity. So the people that listen to Manasphere podcasts are curious. They want to know about things.

So why don't you channel that into, oh, you're interested in conspiracy theories? Oh, my God. There's an incredible book about like the FBI in the 60s and 70s and the run up to Ronald Reagan that will completely scratch that itch. It's well researched. Like more books, more books. Like read more. Do a fact check.

That's another thing I would encourage you to do. If you're somebody who listens to a Theophon pod, the first time you hear something that you're like, whoa, that's crazy. Hit pause. Go find a reputable source that backs it up. And if you can't find one, then you can just take it as entertainment

instead of like an informative podcast. So yeah, I think really honestly reading more books, reading more actual magazine articles, like in a paper magazine and looking at it and don't look at your phone, I think that's the move. Media literacy is such a gift. I'm so thankful that I have. Well, it's not a gift. It's a skill that anyone can and should develop. It's called high school English class. That's literally what media literacy is. But like, I just think also, not to sound all a reading rainbow here, I barely have time to read for pleasure because I've got two kids under five. And so I spent a lot of time reading them books and not really like sitting down and reading. But there's something so enjoyable

about feeling, like the feeling you have when you're reading a book and you're learning something about something you've always wondered about and it's like blowing your mind. Like it's available to you. It's available to anybody. You can fill yourself gaining XP and most of the time you can go to the library and it's completely free, you guys. You don't even have to gamble any of your money away. All you have to do is like maybe dedicate a little bit of your time, I promise. Yeah, more reading. for sure. Okay, now we have made it to the end and it is time to play a game. Wah ha ha ha.

Yay. And this is a simple, fun game. We're just going to play Would You Rather? First off, would you rather be on Theo Vaughn's podcast or do a Scientology auditing session? Scientology. 100% Scientology. I've always been so curious.

I just want to know. Right? Like, just once. Come on. I think it'd be fun. It'd be fun. It's like, I used to go to this Korean. spa in L.A. to get like body scrub because it's just, it's the best thing ever. But they had a service

there that's like getting your yoni steamed. It's like steaming your vagina. I've seen this. And every time I've gone, I've never done it, but I'm always been like, I think I want to try. I feel the same way about Scientology as I do about getting my vagina steamed. Should I do it just once for fun? Yeah. What if I just did it for fun? And then like I drive by the Scientology Celebrity Center on my way to work every day. So I'm like, I really am curious. But I don't think, I don't know. I'm like, they've gotten some pretty smart people. So maybe I shouldn't dabble in that at all.

Yeah. Like on one hand, L.A. right of passage. On the other hand, it is an active cult. That's true. They've got some problematic stuff going on, bad reputation. Only time we'll tell. I mean, those people speed running it. They're trying to find some kind of way to meet it in the middle, I guess.

Get their lickin. All right. Next, would you rather learn all of your political news from Theo Vaughn or Jim Jones? I think Jim Jones. Jim Jones is a lot less racist than Theo Vaughan. Wow. Theovan, I really hope you heard that and like internalize that and let that one sink in. Okay, would you rather braid and put flowers into Charlie Manson's hair or would you rather comb Theo Von's luscious mullet?

Manson. I think he'd be fun. I'm curious. So he didn't do any of the murders himself. He was just encouraging them like a little, like a tiny little guitar demon. But I think like in person he wouldn't be like violent toward me. It would just be fun. No.

You know, what's going on, Charlie? How are things? Yeah, he's more like whack job scary where you're scared he's going to like yell something or like, you know, just kind of like weird scary. Not so much like man scary. However, he probably smells a lot worse than Theo Vaughan. So, ooh. I might brush the mullet just so I can cut it off. This one is hard, but I'm actually, I feel like you've probably done this.

Would you rather watch Theo Vaughan bomb a stand-up routine or sit through a mother god? live stream. Oh gosh. Okay. I dated a comedian for a long time when I lived in New York City and I have a lot of friends who do comedy and so I've spent so much time at comedy shows and I've like written for comedy TV shows. I've spent so much time around comedians and like even if I truly don't like somebody, my heart like breaks for a comedian when I see them bomb. It is so hard to watch somebody bomb because it's so vulnerable to be up there with a microphone and it's so it's like fucking hard to be a good stand-up. So I had probably the mother of God the live stream, I think. Because it just, it's like watching someone be bad at singing the Star-Spangled Banner. I just can't. It's so bad. You can, like,

see the moment in their head, too, when they decide to, like, move on to the next joke and drop it and painful. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And last, would you rather? I don't know how different your life is going to be based on which of these answers you choose. I'm going to be honest. But if you are only listening to one podcast for the rest of your life, is it Theo Van or is it Joe Rogan? Um, Joe Rogan. I do think that he sometimes has some really good follow-up questions. I think sometimes he gets in his skeptic mode and he actually does do some pushback. And also he's got bigger reach. So he's gotten some really wild guess. Although I do get really upset when it's like they had Casey Means and her brother were on a Joe Rogan podcast and I listened to that interview. And it was like so frustrating to listen to people like spew pseudoscience. And the last time I took a science class was like when I was in high school. And like I listened. listen to it and I'm like, that's wrong. You're wrong about science. Like, you know, so that is frustrating for me, but I think Joe Rogan is a little bit. He's got three brain cells to Theobon's, two brain cells that are just in there playing pickleball with each other. Right. Like, he was like

the inspo for Theobon. So like that means he's got a little bit more merit somehow, somewhere. And that is all I have for you. Thank you so much for joining us here on Sounds Like a Cult. If our listeners want to follow you, and if they want to join your cult, which they all absolutely should, where can they do that? You can find me on Instagram. I post a lot of like goofy political stuff sometimes. You can also follow the hysteria YouTube channel. It's pretty easy to find. You can also follow the RSS feed for hysteria on Spotify, Apple. Whatever, we do our regular hysteria episodes. They're kind of like chatty about the news. And then we have our like this fucking guy episodes that come out once every two weeks. But we've been doing this fucking guy for like years at this point. So if you ever want to

binge a bunch of biographies where all I do is like drag people, that's a place to start. So I would say, listen to me wherever you get podcasts, you can watch me on YouTube if you want to look at me podcast with my face, or you can follow me on socials if you want to sometimes get a taste of the banality of life as a mother of two. Yay! My precious culties, out of our three cult categories, I want you to sound off in the comments as to where you think Mr. Vaughn falls along our spectrum. of live your life, watch your back, or getting the fuck out.

And I don't want to downplay how harmful shows like this can be, because I do think that he probably helped to get Trump elected. I think that he hosts a platform that affects a lot of young men's brains. But just because he is such a nothing burger of a person in himself, and there's nothing specific at all about what he is doing, I think I'm going to go watch your back. It almost feels too lazy to truly be nefarious. I mean, not too lazy to truly be nefarious because I do think he's doing some harmful shit.

But I think he's more of a, like I mentioned with Aaron, a mascot, a facilitator. He's the guy at the front. He's not necessarily the guy pulling the strings at the top. A subcult leader of the Manosphere. Definitely icky and you should definitely avoid him at all costs. But as long as you also have other influences in your life and like try to be mindful and I don't know, just be a responsible adult. Don't only listen to Theoban and nothing else. and hopefully you'll be okay.

Although I think Theo Vaughan would probably have you listen to only Theobon and no one else. Anyway, watch your back. That's the conclusion. Colties, that is our show. Thank you so much for listening. Join me and my fellow co-hosts for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Podcaven.

This episode was hosted and produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. Additional research for this episode by Lexi Peary. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical O overthinking, notes on Modern Irrationality, and Wordslet, a Feminist guide to taking back the English language.

Thanks as well to our Network Studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon. At patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. This family is on the brink of civil war. Mobland. The hit original series is now streaming on Paramount Plus. We are the Harrogans. Don't know than it?

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