Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of TikTok Sleuths

Episode Date: October 20, 2026

This week, Amanda and Chelsea get into the cult of TikTok Sleuths, where people fall down conspiratorial rabbit holes and rally around theories that inspire a whole new level of group-think. The Lindsay Clancy case and the death of Nolan Wells show how fast that can happen once Father Algorithm starts feeding thousands of people the same suspicion. And there could not be a better guest for this one than Annie Elise (@_annieelise), one of the biggest names in true crime online. She joins the show to talk about what she’s seen from inside these communities and the parasocial worship of people who are experiencing the most horrific moments of their entire lives, IRL. And what does it say about the current state of our society that citizen sleuths feel the need to actually hold investigators feet to the flame? Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles, @imanharirikia.  Order Iman's new book, Once in a Timeline, here!  Thank you to our sponsors! For a Limited time, get a free immune Support Bundle, with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro, at https://DrinkAG1.com/CULT To get $20 off your first box, Give ButcherBox a try, at https://ButcherBox.com/CULT Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That's drinkag1.com slash cult. Dustin from Sacred Symbols here, have you ever wondered what it actually feels like to have a better laptop like the Dell XPS powered by Intel Core? With its premium thin and light design, it feels. smooth in your hands. The responsive touchscreen keeps things fast and precise for easy scrolling and swiping. And with long-lasting battery life, you get non-stop energy to keep working without constantly hunting for a charger. Built for those who want better. The Dell XboxBS built for you. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host

opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The fact that your past time is something so, so dark and sinister, it should give anyone a little pause. And then the moment you start believing or justifying or making excuses for something that normally would defy logic, that's when it's like, okay, now it's like time to shut down the app, take a moment, go for a walk, and like recalibrate a little bit.

Oh my God. I could so easily see someone genuinely getting sucked into a cult of their own creation, based on their own desire to be seen by this community. This is Sounds Like a Colts, a show about the modern-day cults we all follow. I'm Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer, and a lifelong student of pop culture sociology. And I'm Amanda Montel, author of books including cultish in the age of magical overthinking.

Every week on the show, we discuss a different group that puts the cult and culture, from Trader Joe's lovers to Incells, To try to answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watcher back, or I get the fuck out. Because here's the thing. Cultish influence in 2026 falls along a spectrum.

Not all cults look the same. And this word cult can mean a lot of things. There's cult followed, there's cult classic, there's cult brands, and then there are more serious cults. It's a subjective word. It's context dependent, sometimes sensational, other times useful, other times just cheeky and fun. And this show, as those who've been listening for a while, is all about analyzing the ways that cultishness shows up in unexpected places in everyday life to examine the ways in which we're all susceptible to it. And if you can handle it, to have a little laugh along the way.

Because we're ridiculous. We humans were so, so silly. Utilely ridiculous. This week, we're looking at a group of people who have decided to take a little. the law into their own hands. They're up all night digging through public records, analyzing body language, dissecting case files, finding people's cousins on Facebook, and sometimes deciding that they know more than the lawyers, judges, or actual investigators involved. Today, we're talking the cult of TikTok sleuths. Chelsea, I have a confession. Tell me. And I'm nervous today. I'm

nervous today because our producer warned us that we might have some new listeners because our guest today is so iconic. Annie Elise for the true crime sleuth freaks, complimentary with respect. I am not in the world of true crime. I don't really watch it. I don't really keep up. And so I was joking earlier before we started recording that I'm going to be like true crime bimbo today. What is your relationship to true crime and specifically like the world of TikTok sleuths? Okay. So I will first say that a lot of know me from working in the love space in unscripted. But sometimes I like to take breaks. That's reality TV dating shows for those who don't know the lingo.

Yeah, sorry. Sorry. The love space in unscripted. Sorry. I help people fall in love. There's a lot of like emotional labor that comes with that. And so sometimes I like to take breaks from dating shows. And in doing so, I like to dip my toe in investigative unscripted.

unscripted shows, meaning I produce on those shows when I want to just be nosy and unpack cool cases. Oh, you produced true crime? Yeah. Yes. Wait, I didn't even know this about you. You produce true fucking crime? Yes. Okay. Some of this will definitely get cut out. But I do take a break from love because like I said, there's a lot of like emotional labor of like helping someone break up with someone or like falling in love with someone else. So I have dipped my toe to like go into true crime. I've done some hip hop mysteries exposed. Can't say this on air.

So I'm just going to tell you. Got so deep in on this show that I was able to like. Oh my God. What? And then. But I'll just say that when I'm not producing true crime, I do like to indulge to indulge. in the TikTok sleuth community. I love hearing about the cases that don't get famous, that are not so famous, and, you know, the famous ones as well.

So, yeah, it's a whole different world on there, dog. Oh, my God, I can't wait for you to explain it to me. So we need to get some information down before we can really get into analyzing why TikTok murder sleuths might meet the qualifications for a cult, at least according to the definition of this show. we have to ask the question, what exactly is an online sleuth? And how did this cult erect? Sorry, I'm always saying the word erect and I don't mean to. But it's just, it's useful as a verb. You also say it with so much emphasis, which I love. Erect.

So TikTok murder sleuths are amateur vigilantes who learn about a true crime case, a murder case, more often than not, and decide to take the investigations into their own hands for one reason or another, specifically researching and airing out their theories on TikTok. But before TikTok, imagine it once upon a time. Before this application turned every person with Wi-Fi in a notes app into an amateur detective, the true crime media market was already planting seeds for this cult to one day emerge. So many will remember the podcast serial, which exploded in 2014. So many listeners on Trey into the the podcast world. Then there was the HBO docu-series The Jinks. I actually did consume that voraciously. Then there was making a murderer in 2015. And these pieces of prestige media

ushered in kind of a golden age where you could not only watch your favorite high-end true crime series as an audience member, you could also participate and try and help solve cases in real time using social media. And as unlikely as that may have seemed from the outset, a Occasionally the crowdsourcing vigilante thing actually did help. And there is truly nothing that fuels a cult, like a couple people getting a couple things right, a couple of times. But before we get into all of that, I wanted to ask you, Chelsea, as more of like a participant, a lurker, a consumer, at times a producer in this true crime sleuthing world. Why do you think this constitutes a cult, exactly, allegedly? I think for me, the cultiness comes from the group fainting.

which we'll get into a little bit later with our guests. But you have these little communities that form around the case. And these communities have their own leaders. They have their own language. And at some point, it becomes, for me, like, we really know what happened. You know what I'm saying? Like this idea that they have all this information. I feel like once everybody starts to agree on this same truth that is kind of like

baseless, then it becomes culty. For sure. I mean, even just for, from my understanding from doing a little bit of research for this episode and talking to our guest, stay tuned for that iconic interview. My outsider's perspective is that something that makes the online sleuth community super culty is the fact that these participants seem to derive so much purpose from this. Like even if they are making up or supporting baseless theories that are not actually helping

this case that they seem to care so much about, many members and followers feel this sense of like transcendent insider wisdom. Like I have the keys to this knowledge in a way that mirrors a lot of the cults that I've researched and written about that might be considered more classic bonafide cults. I don't know. I don't know if that's fair. But I think the deriving a great deal of purpose based on conspiratorial thinking that can almost lead you to a place where it's like they like murder. You know, that is the altar at which they are bowing down and it's murder. Yeah. Okay.

So, as I mentioned, the cult of online murder sleuths is not all bad. And sometimes they actually do really help. And one famous example of this was the case immortalized in the Netflix documentary Don't Fuck with Cats, which I did watch. And that involved a group of internet strangers painstakingly analyzing everything from vacuum, to electrical outlets and online aliases while trying to identify the man posting videos of himself killing animals. And look, if there's anything that could possibly get me into this cult, it would be to hold accountable an animal abuser. I do not care about people. I only care about cats. Their target was eventually revealed to be Luca Magnata, who later murdered John

Lee and became the subject of an international manhunt. The sleuths weren't detectives, but their work established the seductive idea that a determined enough group of strangers on the internet could help piece together clues that might otherwise be missed. And that is essentially, in so many words, the origin story of the TikTok murder sleuth. True crime became something that people felt like they were participating in. It gave them community, ritual, and meaning, which are key cult ingredients. Yes, they are. Another thing that I want to talk a little bit about is sleuthing feels so addictive because you feel like you're a part of a community that's helping to change or fix something, at least in my opinion. I will talk specifically about the Lindsay Clancy case just because

it's at the front of my brain. But even though some of the theories I was reading, I'm just like, ah, this sounds a little insane to be a part of a community that cares so much about the outcome of this case, this woman's life, it did something to me. And that's how I feel about every case that I'm like watching these videos and watching these people unpack these insane cases. I don't know. It's just, it's the community aspect. It definitely feels like hardcore stand behavior.

Like it's giving Swifty. It's giving Belieber. But the thing that they're a fan of involves death and dismemberment. Yeah. Do you think that that puts the cult of online sluice on another level, just like the inherent darkness of it? Yes, absolutely, because the fact that your past time is something so, so dark and sinister, it should give anyone a little pause.

Well, my reference point is like, I have a friend who literally will not even touch true crime because they had a family member who was murdered. And maybe some people have experienced that and it actually pulls them into this world. But this friend of mine is just like, it's too real for me. This is not fucking entertainment to me. This isn't fun. And so to me, I'm like, there is a little bit of depersonalization in Dululu here, maybe, sometimes. Or on the flip side, there's, like, so much parasycial attachment that that trends delulu in its own way.

You know, when people feel like they are a member of Lindsay Clancy's family or whatever. I think, like, celebrity stands just takes on a cultier quality when the online fandom that they're participating in inherently involves someone's tragedy. I fully agree and I also want to add that I do believe that there is a sliding scale of true crime because I watch and engage with true crime. The Lindsay Clancy and the Nolan Wells cases are kind of like the outliers. But for me, I don't know. It can get a little sinister to your point where you're consuming only murder content. You know what I'm saying? Like the people that go to sleep to true crime are listening to a true crime podcast.

That gets a little creepy for me. Not going to lie. For sure. From what I can tell, proper true crime sleuths feel a lot of ownership over these cases. Like each case is a kind of book of the Bible that they've read inside and out. So, you know, it's a little nerve-wracking, even dipping our toe into this world and summarizing some examples of how this cult has played out. But we're feeling brave today.

Chelsea, you've mentioned the Lindsay Clancy and Nolan Wells trials as two examples of major sleuth fodder that you actually did tune into. Could you explain those to me and particularly in the context of the cult of TikTok murder sleuths? So yes, these trials may be the clearest examples of what online sleuth culture looks like in 2026. So for the listeners who are not too familiar with the Lindsay Clancy trial specifically. Lindsay Clancy allegedly unalived her three children before attempting to die by suicide. The question at trial was whether she was criminally responsible

for their deaths with her defense arguing that she was suffering from postpartum psychosis and the prosecution arguing that she understood what she was doing and knew it was wrong. So for layman's terms, they are not arguing whether she did or did not kill her three children. It's just basically, is she criminally responsible? Where I see this showing up in online sleuthing culture is that now the case has kind of

like grown its own legs and the sleuth community is now insinuating that based on the evidence that they are putting together, she actually did not kill them at all, that her husband actually is the killer and he tried to kill her as well. Fascinating. obviously because I don't like live under the earth surface. I am familiar with the Lindsay Clancy case in particular with the political overtones of this woman reaching out for help because she was struggling very clearly with postpartum depression and psychosis and expressed that she was afraid that she was going to hurt her children and

receive no support. But I didn't know the TikTok theories went that far. Yes. Another way that I have seen the cultishness show up. with a Lindsey Clancy case specifically on TikTok is the basic, I don't even know if this is the term, but is it like baby girlification? Is this what they call it? Of the defense attorney, Kevin Reddington. He's been now nicknamed Big Red. People have even leaked his birth chart to kind of like show some validity to the case and his performance in the courtroom. I'm not going to lie,

I have joined in in all of this. I'm like, okay. Wait, so he's a Pedro. Pascal. Is that what you're saying? He's become a sex icon? Well, less about a sex icon and just, I don't know what the correct term is, but basically like, they're putting him on this very large pedestal and it's super interesting. Wait, I need to Google what he looks like. Not cute. Not cute. Okay, okay. He's not a sex symbol, but he's a larger than life godlike figure. Yes, correct. He's like a big daddy of sorts. Fascinating. Okay, I want to ask a fuck Mary Kill and it's Big Red, Luigi Mangione. Oh, come on now, girl.

And it's, well, this guy's already dead, but I'm going Robert Kardashian. Wasn't he O.J.'s lawyer? Oh, honey. Rob Burt. Yes, yes. You meant the big daddy rob. Oh. Big daddy Rob.

Oh, okay. Shit. So, a thousand percent, fuck Luigi. Come on. Yeah, no, I know. Mary, Big Rob, without a doubt. And so sorry, Big Red, got to kill you. Got to kill you.

Okay. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Gotta unalive you. Got to crying. Okay, so Big Red has been elevated to this pedestal status despite your decision to unalive him. Yeah.

That is culty as hell. You mentioned the Nolan Wells case. Can you explain and also talk about like the cultishness that has emerged on TikTok surrounding it? Yes, absolutely. So the Nolan Wells case was the case where a black teen in Mississippi went on a boating trip with his white classmates and never returned home. And then days later, his body was found in the exact same location

where the teens were reportedly partying just days prior. The family actually went in, did a search party for him, and they searched this exact area, and his body was not there. And then they found his body days later in the same place that they searched, which was kind of crazy. So where I saw this cultishness show up on TikTok in, like, sleuth culture is because, because obviously, like, all the online sleuths were trying to piece together what they think happened in a Nolan Wells case.

But for this one in particular, this is where sleuths actually found something worth taking a closer look at. Audio engineer Janetta Brantley took the C-toe distress call made from the boat that day and professionally cleaned up the background audio using traditional audio engineering techniques. So no AI was used in her digging. Online people began claiming that they could hear things like Nolan's name being called, someone saying, is he dead? And someone also asking, can we cover this up? None of which has been officially verified. But this audio being leaked generated enough attention that the Wells family attorney, Ben Crump, hired his own audio engineering experts to formally analyze the call.

And I just want to say a criminal trial has not been started for this case yet because the investigation is ongoing. Okay, and I want to pause here because I very intentionally mentioned the race of everyone involved and I swear I'm going to land the plane here. But specifically speaking, as a black American woman who grew up in the South, race and safety have been a part of my consciousness for as long as I can remember. I grew up not far from a sundown town. I literally knew what a sundown town was as a child. So the understanding that being black can change how safe you are in certain spaces is woven into the very fabric of how I see the world. And I know that cultural context is shared with a lot of black Americans. So when a

story hits to internet about a black teenager going out with a group of white friends and never coming home and later being found dead, that cultural memory doesn't just disappear. It doesn't mean every suspicion is correct, but it helps explain why this case immediately struck a nerve and why people started asking questions. And see, that's where the cultiness comes in. Because most times, online Sluts are bringing their own history, fears, and lived experiences into how they interpret a case. And then the algorithm puts thousands of people with those same concerns together. And suddenly you have a community with a shared suspicion and a collective mission to figure out what really happened. And Colties, there actually has been a major update since we recorded this episode.

A Mississippi grand jury has now declined to indict anyone in Nolan's death, saying that they found no credible. evidence of criminal conduct. Nolan's family and their attorney Ben Crump, however, still have questions, particularly about unexplained injuries found on his body and have continued to push for answers. So, as of the time of this episode airing, no one has criminally been charged in Nolan Wells' death. So when analyzing cults, outsiders often get very curious about the psychology of those on the inside. They want to know what draws people in. And having read a little bit about the motivations of TikTok sleuths has been illuminating. We took a look at an NIH study titled Out of the Dark psychological perspectives on

people's fascination with true crime and learned that morbid curiosity, sure, excitement, yes, but also the desire to understand danger and determine whether or not it might be a direct threat to you, as well as the satisfaction of trying to solve a puzzle or particular in not a game, but a challenge of sorts that you can kind of play from afar are all major reasons why people seek out this community, cult, whatever you want to call it. The unknown aspect creates a kind of tension and finding that next clue gives the brain a little hit of resolution. But the truly culty part is what happens when those drives inch further into this sort of collective delusion or this group think. You know, as we've already hinted at, TikTok gives sleuths

this community platform, this shared language, recurring villains, favored theories. And that feeling is so powerful. Being part of this enlightened in group that can see what the outsiders, like the investigators, the media, the normies are missing. And just a little stat about how the community aspect of TikTok sleuths might actually keep them going more than the genuine desire to solve crimes. Pew Research has found that 65% of TikTok users say connecting with other people who share their interests is one major reason why they use the app. And fact checking is not nearly as important as that feeling of being all in on something special that no one else sees. And when an online sleuth does actually uncover something useful, it becomes that sort of proof of concept for the whole

entire belief system. And that's when the fandom starts turning into more of a conspiratorial type culty doctrine. Now, our guest, today, Annie Elise, talks a little bit about the Karen Reed case. And Chelsea, I was wondering if you could summarize it a little bit just to give context for when it comes up later in the interview. Amanda, if you want a case study and how true crime fandom can start looking culty, look no further than the Karen Reed trial. Karen Reed was accused of running over and killing her cop boyfriend, John O'Keefe,

one cold evening in Massachusetts, but the evidence just wasn't. wasn't adding up. And too many coincidences created a lot of hot takes online. The murder prosecution turned into a full-blown circus thanks to the TikToks lutes, YouTubers, bloggers, and live streamers who even created merch and spawned an army of pink-clad, free Karen Reed supporters who gathered outside the courthouse, raised money, learned the case like scripture, and in some cases described fellow supporters as their new best friends. Oh my God, I'm remembering. I watched the Netflix documentary about this case

because I was so fascinated by this free Britney type of fandom that, again, erected around Karen Reid. So by the 2025 retrial the case had become a true crime spectacle with competing belief systems about what happened to John O'Keefe. Reid was ultimately acquitted of second-degree murder and manslaughter while operating under the influence and leaving the scene of a fatal crash,

but she was convicted of an OUI. The online movement didn't decide the verdict, obviously, but the whole saga showed just how quickly amateur investigation can involve into community and identity and a massive crusade. Damn. No, it was fascinating to me, like how there were like full-blown outfits. I don't think I had ever seen a true crime cult following develop such an aesthetic before.

And with that, I think it's time to transition into our conversation with someone who knows this TikTok murder sleuth cult inside and out. This blurry line between watching a case, investigating a case, and actually becoming a part of the story is exactly why we wanted to bring her in. Today's guest is Annie Elise, who has built a massive true crime audience by covering cases in real time, by following new developments as they unfold, and watching firsthand how quickly online communities can turn into investigators, advocates, juries, and occulty chaos agents.

So who better to help us figure out when internet sleuthing is a live your life, when it's a watcherback, and when it's a get the fuck out. Stay tuned. We're after the break, our interview with Amy Elise. You know what cults love, asymmetrical sacrifice. The people lower down the hierarchy are expected to keep giving more. while somehow the people at the very top keep doing just fine. That is so true, Chelsea, which is why our friends at Unrigour economy

asked us to apply the cult lens to something considerably less sexy than a wellness guru, let's say. The cost of living. They are looking into how policies supported by congressional Republicans are affecting what everyday people pay for things like groceries and healthcare. The 2025 reconciliation law, for example, reduced projected spending on Medicaid and SNAP, while CBO estimates that households toward the bottom of the income distribution will lose resources and those toward the top will gain. That's culty.

And don't get me started on tariffs. Research from Yale's Budget Lab has found that those raise consumer prices too, although exactly how much depends on which tariffs are in effect. So, very classic sounds like a cult question. Who's being asked to sacrifice and who benefits? Indeed. And if rising costs have meant making tougher decisions about, what you can actually afford, unrig our economy wants to hear about your experience. You can share

your story at CRNT.com. Slash Unrig. Sounds like a cult. We'll also have that link in our bio. Happy October, my sweet angelic culties. You know what's extra spooky about this season? Having to transition into a world where it gets dark at 4 p.m. If you're struggling with the seasonal transition, might I recommend adding AG1 to your routine? I'm a big fan of adding AG1 to my mixed berry smoothie quite specifically, but you can add yours to water with a little bit of lemon, you can have it stirred, you can have it shaken. AG1 NextGen has 75 plus ingredients, including vitamins, minerals, pre-and-probiotics, and superfoods backed by four separate gold standard clinical trials. Four independent studies reflect that key nutrients improve.

after three months of consistent use. I definitely am prone to a little bit of seasonal moodiness. I'll put it that way. And so I really appreciate easy additions to my routine that help me take care of my body, my mind. Go to ag1.com slash cult. And for a limited time, get a free immune support bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and a bottle of vitamin D3K2

with your first subscription order of AG1 NextGen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com slash cult. Dustin from Sacred Symbols here, you know when you're in the middle of a heavy recording session, editing a show, or just trying to get real work done on the go, and your laptop starts slowing down

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You get a better way to work without being chained to a charger all day. Build for those who want better. The DellXPS built for you. Annie, welcome to Sounds Like a Cool. Thanks so much for having me. Oh, tis a morbid little honor to have your presence here today. Would you mind introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about your relationship to the cult of TikTok murder sleuths?

Oh, that is a loaded question. Okay, yes, I am Annie Elyse. I am a true crime podcaster. I have been doing true crime podcast for about six years now. And in relation to the cult that is TikTok, I think everybody who's on social media is in a cult to extent you go down the rabbit holes, you start circling the drains of Reddit, and you just end up sucked into sometimes weird group think moments. And I think that happens more times than not on TikTok particularly. So anytime I'm researching a case, I of course look at everything. Court documents,

court records, all that, but also social media plays a huge role in that. And TikTok, while sometimes has useful information, I would say more times than not, it's sensational information. Trying to capture that algorithm. Yes. Trying to break through in that attention. economy. It makes sense. Yes. Entertainment over facts and figures. So, Annie, I have a question for you. It's actually a two-parter. Do you, first of all, consider yourself an online sleuth? That's one. And then when did you realize your audience wasn't just watching these cases that they actually wanted to participate in solving them as well?

So I definitely would consider myself an online sleuth just because it is one of the avenues I go to for research because with a lot of these cases, the first thing that will pop up is a Facebook group dedicated to the case where family members are posting or friends are posting or then you of course want to look through the social media history and Instagram or TikTok accounts of the people involved. So there is an element of sleuthing 100% and trying to figure out information before it gets wiped or misinterpreted. And I noticed that my community was a part of that and wanting to crowdsource information as well very early on. When I first started covering true crime, I was doing live streams only.

I wasn't in like the whole pre-record arena at all. And so what I would do during those is start talking about a case and everyone in the live chat was, hey, I just found this. Have you looked into this? Let's look up this website together. And so pretty early on I knew that at least my audience for true crime was very involved in like the boots on the ground aspect of just wanting to uncover or know more about everything. Wow.

Could you like contextualize how you got here? Like how did you go from like Annie Ali? little girl playing with her American girl dolls? I don't know. I don't know your life. I did have an American girl doll. I was a Molly's fan. So I definitely had. Oh my God. Wait, that is kind of unexpected. I had Molly, Felicity, and Josephina. Those were my girls. That was my crew. Yes. Okay. So I got into it. I started watching True Crime as a consumer, probably way too young to be appropriate. And my sister and I would always watch like Dateline together, 2020. We'd have like our Friday nights with Froyo where we're just like, you know, watching Keith Morrison and his beautiful voice and delivering these stories. And I just

always was fascinated. And then I remember there are a few cases that had stood out to me, Casey Anthony being the number one, where I remember exactly where I was when that verdict was read. I remember following it. And so over time, my interest just became deeper to where I thought a lot of these cases weren't getting the coverage they needed or I felt like they had a bad outcome. like Casey Anthony. So I was in the fashion industry living in New York. And when COVID hit,

all my factories were shut down. I was waiting for them to open back up. I had nothing to do with my time. And my husband was like, well, you know, what are your hobbies? And I was like, I don't have a fucking hobby. Like, what do you have hobbies? All I do is watch true crime documentaries.

And he's like, well, why don't you start talking about some of the cases that really bother you and that you talk to me about or things that you feel like you need awareness? Because there was also a huge spike during COVID with a lot of these cases. So I just, yeah, started talking about them one day, casually and it just grew and grew and grew and became what it is today. Truly breathtaking how many cults were born out of the pandemic.

When you're contending with the end of the world and are cooped up in your house lacking community and connection and routine, you're like, where's a cult I can join online? Yes. They found me. To da. To da. Okay.

So you're like giving a slight mini cult leader of sorts. I can see the worshippers a foot kissing at your feet. actually. And that leads us to our next question. Go on Reddit. You will see there are not a lot of worshippers. Okay. But this is the other thing is that even an anti-worshipper is a worshipper. Oh, clacket. I just need the long hair now. Like, yeah, the classic long hair, the weird glasses, and I'll be set. So, Annie, what Amanda's actually hinting at is the fact that every cult needs a charismatic leader, right? So in online sleuthing communities, who actually holds that power? Is it the creator with the biggest platform, the person who breaks the information first,

or the person with the theory that everyone just starts repeating? That's a really great question. I feel like all of those answers could potentially be the one, but my gut tells me it's more of whoever first introduces a theory and somebody starts repeating that and it spreads like wildfire because that's when you then start getting into group think territory when everybody thinks the exact same way, when they're all believing the exact same theory, even if it's not rooted in evidence or fact at all. And so it doesn't matter if the creator is the one sharing it or pushing back against it. It comes down to their following

whoever first announced that theory and then once it spreads. There's a lot of people that pop up who are spreading it. So it's almost like people are gravitated toward whoever's in their algorithm sharing that. I'm so curious who you think is benefiting ultimately from this cold. Because if like the leader can change at a moment's notice, is it just like TikTok like always? Like the platform encourages this cult to thrive, right? Like by rewarding new information even if it's false, even if it's scandalizing, even it's conspiratorial. But yeah, like, are there any less obvious answers as to like who is secretly benefiting

from these sleuths out there sleuthing? I mean, I think individually anyone who is on TikTok and isn't a part of the creator awards program, they're benefiting because all you have to do is post a video that's a minute and three seconds long to get monetized. and that's why some of them are coming to the table with the most outlandish crazy conspiracies out there because they know it's going to hit the algorithm and they're going to get paid. So anyone has the ability to reap the rewards of social media or TikTok as an online cult. Even, I mean, the same argument could be said for mainstream media.

Nolan Wells is a case that recently went extremely viral. So many people were talking about it on TikTok, off platform too. But then Nancy Grace got involved in it and made that one of her number one cases that she was covering and brought in a lot of what was being shared on social media. And so then she's benefiting from it in a way as well on more of a mainstream platform and with a larger audience. So I think everyone taps into it a little bit and can reap the rewards of that if that's like their goal. If they're trying to be salacious and be a conspiracy theorist to get the clicks and get the payout. Oh, my God.

It really is so interesting how cults in the digital age have more. because obviously like when you imagine a cult, you might think of like a remote compound in the 70s with a bunch of people like barefoot and dancing around Manson style. But like this kind of disparate cult that like starts online but has like tendrils all over the world that infiltrates like random corners of society but also the mainstream media. Like it is a cult. It just doesn't look like one. And I guess that's why we're talking about it on this show. Anyways. So one of the cultiest dynamics in all of these sorts of groups is the creation of an enlightened in group that believes. it understands certain knowledge in this situation, the case, better than police, journalists, or anyone outside the community.

Have you watched that happen around cases that you've covered where TikTok sluice, like, truly, truly believe that they are divinely wise? I mean, hello, the Lindsay Clancy case right now is like the perfect example of that. I think it's been going on on a smaller scale for years. And it started happening a little bit more with Karen Reed, which there was some stuff warranted with that case that was mishandled 100%. But people these days, they want to be the first one to break the news or to expose something and be the first to the table. And at that point, like Lindsay Clancy, a big group of people believe they've uncovered something that nobody else has been

able to uncover in the three years of this entire case going on. Defense attorneys that have been credentialed for 50 plus years, experts, doctors, but they know better. And so therefore, they must be right and everybody else is wrong. And then that's when you start entering again into group think territory. It's an echo chamber and everybody starts truly believing that that is the correct scenario and that everybody else somehow just missed it. I am so happy you brought that up with the Lindsay Clancy case specifically because there have been so many times where I have gotten warped into the entire world, the trial and everything. And I would see these videos on TikTok and I'm like, this theory is rooted in non-factual things.

Like, I need to go and fact-check this. Do you at all, like, feel a responsibility to fact-check any type of, like, theories that you see, like, just baseless theories that you see on TikTok sometimes? Absolutely. All the time, because it starts to get really, really dangerous. And look, I'm going to give it to the people, like, there was not a full investigation into other suspects when this all happened. But that was also because there wasn't a need for it.

And they did verify Patrick's story. They immediately got the CCTV footage to, you know, make sure that his movements were what he was saying they were and all of that. But that's where the outrage started saying there was no investigation. Then it started just getting insane. People questioning, which questions are healthy. If they're like, okay, how was her body temperature so low if she was only out there for under 30 minutes? There's no way. She had to be out there longer.

Well, no, when you start speaking with experts and doctors and people who understand, it, if you have a spinal cord injury, the trauma that goes into your body, your body temperature can deplete very quickly. When you shiver, when you're cold and hypothermia and things like that, that's your body reacting and keeping the blood flow going. If you're paralyzed, you're not doing that. And so everything rapidly drops. But nobody's willing to actually listen to the evidence and listen to how these theories are debunked. So I do go on and I've done it many times where I will go theory by theory and just counteract it with the actual evidence and the fact. And once those then start to become debunked,

they escalate into the next theory. I saw one, and I'm not sure if you saw it in your feed, where they were saying because of the smashed up pills, it originally was Patrick must have been drugging her, trying to subdue her, trying to make her incapacitated. But now, no, I actually think what happened is he was drugging Cora, he was sexually assaulting her, Lindsay found out, and that's why he killed the whole family.

And it's like, so you're just constantly raising mistakes with things that are not valid and have no truth behind them whatsoever. And it becomes very, very dangerous. And so I do feel a responsibility to come back, combat those claims and explain like what the truth is. You know what? This reminds me of hearing you talk. It does remind me of more classic cult scenarios where there's like a text in religion. It's the Bible or whatever biblical book you have. And in this world, it's like the case, the baseline facts of what happened with this murder. And then there are all these interpretations. that people rally around creating like different sects.

It really does mirror like a classic cult situation. Absolutely. Annie, you mentioned Karen Reed, and I know that you interviewed her. In that case, it developed an unusually intense online following with its own influencers, merch, and loyal supporters. What was it like stepping into that ecosystem and did it feel different from any of the other cases that you covered? I think it was different in the sense that it was a true crime case that quickly penetrated mainstream media.

It's very similar to how Lindsay Clancy has been. Even if people aren't following true crime or they don't watch true crime and consume it, they've been following this case. And that happened with Karen Reed. And I really do think that was kind of the foundation of this whole now movement of people finding conspiracies and collusion and cover-ups and all of that. And it was interesting for me because I've gone to a million court cases and trials and have spoken with perpetrators, victims, you name it. But going to the trial, her retrial, sitting with her family,

talking with her, getting to know her defense attorney as well, and then seeing the moment we would leave the courthouse how polarizing it was and the cameras and everybody just fascinated. It was weird because you kind of feel like you're in a bubble in a sense. And that I wasn't really expecting. But it was also interesting. People were split from the beginning with Karen Reid, either that she was completely guilty, that this was intentional and she wanted to kill John, or she's been set up, she's not guilty, it's all a cover-up from people within the police department. I was very clear from day one, even with her family who invited me to the trial with them, that I don't know what the truth is. I still to this day, do not know what the truth is.

I don't know if she is guilty or not guilty. What I do know and what I have held firm from day one is I don't believe there was enough evidence to support a conviction. There was too much reasonable doubt. There were too many things that didn't make sense. They were disposing of their phones. They were getting rid of evidence. the glassware didn't match. And so there wasn't enough for a conviction, but do I actually know the events that happened

that night? No. All we have at the end of the day is our integrity and I would vocalize that. But because of how polarizing that case became and how divided it was, of course, I got a lot of pushback for that. People are like, no, she's innocent. No, she's guilty. And it's tough with cases like that because when there's so many eyes on it, normally

you would think you want to like, tread carefully, walk the line a little bit. But you can't in situations like that. And I think that that was a big learning experience for me and why I've also held so firm now in the Lindsay Clancy case with what I believe. Because if you're able to just, I don't know, be wishy-washy or not really speak with any conviction, I don't think that your opinion then carries a lot of weight. Damn, belief too is such an ingredient in this cult. Belief. Because like, again, the biblical text of this case leaves so much to interpretation. And if you're a creator in the space or have your own platform, or even if you're not,

even if you're just like an average TikTok user, some amount of like faith or mystical ideology like has to factor in for you to truly be a part of this cult, I feel. That's what I'm getting. Do you ever like have a moment where you're just like, oh my God, I'm in a cult? I don't know that I've ever felt like I'm in a cult. I think sometimes the true crime community, even though it is so vast, it is relatively small. Most of the creators know each other. You start to see the familiar accounts pop up of commenters. And so it's, it's, you start to see the familiar accounts pop up of commenters. And so it does feel kind of small in a sense, but I don't know that I would ever say I have felt like it's cult like. But maybe it's because I'm in a cold and I can't see it.

Yeah. Okay, but this is why this word cult can sometimes not be helpful. It's because everything we've been talking about so far indicates that like this is pretty culty. But then the second that accusation gets introduced, it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Like this is not a real cult. And that's so true. And that's why we have our cult spectrum. Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at no frills.ca.

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What if you could get a private lesson each week from the best, most innovative golf teachers in the world? Swaying correctly is physically easier to do than the stupidity that most golfers end up doing. I'm Josh Karp. On Golf Smarter's corrected mistakes, I speak to the brightest minds in golf to dig into their journey, their process, and the best advice for how anyone can improve their golf game. So if you're looking to get better at golf, search Golf Smarter's corrected mistakes on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes are released every Tuesday. Speaking of the culty checklist, once a theory in this community becomes an accepted truth, either by like most of the people in the true crime sleuth world or just like a major. sec, or even a smaller sec, how hard is it to challenge it? And you kind of talked about this already,

but do you think in general larger true crime creators feel a responsibility to push back against group think even when their audience doesn't want to hear it? I think the ones who aren't after money or clicks will push back and still be firm in what they believe. But it's difficult. It's very hard to push back because at that point, they don't want to hear it. They believe that what they have is gospel, that it's the truth, that there's no challenging it, that they are the enlightened one, they've uncovered something that nobody else has. So no matter what you say and how you combat it, even if it's with every single piece of evidence and fact possible, they're never going to accept it. And I have a lot of friends who are in this space who have been, in my opinion, handling it the right

way where they are saying, here's what the truth is, here's evidence, first theory, and like going through the motions, even though it's not the popular opinion at the moment. It would be way more beneficial and you get way more views and clicks and payments if you were saying Patrick's the devil, he framed her, here's why, because everybody's thirsty for that information and they want to watch that. So I think it takes an incredible responsibility to stay true to what you believe. But at the same time, I've seen other people, some of who I respect in the space as well who are taking the bait and are going with that narrative because they know that it's the popular opinion right now, even though it is not rooted in fact.

And I get it. It's easier because not only is it going to make you more money. essentially, but it's easier to not push against that narrative when that is the popular primary narrative right now. And so, yeah, to answer your question, it's very difficult to push back. Low key, sometimes I'm like, the people that have those takes, I'm like, I feel like you just want to manufacture chaos just because, to your same point, like, it still gives them the clicks. Like, even the people that were like, oh, there was a body double or something going into the CBS. And I'm like, that sounds insane.

Clinically insane. No, they were like his best friend cosplayed him and he went in CVS. It wasn't even Patrick even though, well, really? Because for two weeks, you were telling me that it was Patrick and he was changing his shoes, his sweater, everything. Now it's not even him. Like, what do you mean? So confused. So confused.

It's almost like people are like throwing out the most outrageous ideas to see if they themselves even believe it. I will tell you, this weekend, okay, there is a picture of the crime scene in Lindsay's room with the blood, droplets on the floor and there looks to be what was like a footprint or something, but it wasn't usable. There's a woman who found a picture of Patrick, I don't remember who was like outside on the beach, on a boat, whatever, took like clip art, like or paint or whatever that program was, clipped his foot, resized it and then put it over as an overlay on the crime scene and moved it and manipulate it so that it looked like the toes matched perfectly, but the foot was like this much bigger than what it would be a normal.

She's like, look, this is his footprint. And I was laughing so hard because it was so like outlandish. But then I opened up the comments and the amount of people send this to Reddington. Oh my gosh, have you forwarded this to the team? You just cracks up. I'm like, this is fucking crazy. Like, if I, in a different dimension right now, what is going on? It's unbelievable.

Kind of reminds me of like when you end up on the wrong side of the political algorithm. Never fun. It gets scary. What? Gets real scary. But, Andy, that was actually a perfect segue to my next question. Because after everything you've seen from inside this world, what makes someone especially susceptible into getting pulled into online sleuthing? And then what's the clearest sign that they've gone a little too far?

I think what makes them susceptible would be constant usage of social media, just doom scrolling all day because then the longer you sit on a video, that's what your algorithm is going to feed you. So if you sit on a Lindsay Clancy video for two seconds too long, that's what's going to come up next. and then you're going to just slowly get sucked in to the rabbit hole. Then if you're watching it where it's a theory video versus the trial and you're watching the theory more, that's what your algorithm is going to continue feeding you. So it's like you're going to get this echo chamber of whatever content you're interested in. And that is going to suck you in. When you know somebody's gone too far, I think it's when somebody starts believing something that has no reason in it.

And there's no truth. Not even that there's no truth or no evidence, but like that it defies all logic. that it somehow is possible, though, like the cause playing in CVS, and then somebody's saying, like, oh, and then somebody else was in there, and I saw them do a pass-off to him in CVS or, like, things like that from, like, I don't even know what is going on right now. There was another woman who, like, recreated a dollhouse illustration of the whole crime scene, which ended up, it got removed off of TikTok eventually because I think it violated so many

guidelines. You get sucked into the rabbit hole, and then the moment you start believing or justifying or making excuses for something that normally would defy logic, that's when it's like, okay, now it's like time to shut down the app, take a moment, go for a walk, and like recalibrate a little bit. Such a little grass. Yeah, yeah. The most extreme sleuth sound hell of vitamin D deficient. So, Annie, as one of the thought leaders within this group, in your opinion, for people who genuinely want to help and consider themselves amateur sleuths, what rules or boundaries would you want them to follow?

Do not ever contact the attorneys. Do not ever ask that people flood the police department. Don't ever think that you are discovering something that has not already been seen or vetted or that is like going to crack it open. And if you truly then do believe it, don't take it to TikTok. Go directly and send an email to somebody involved in the case and say, hey, I discover this hoping it's helpful information. Because by you taking your phone and being like, guess what I just discovered, guys?

I'm going to email it to Reddington. You're not doing that because you actually want to help the case. move it forward. You're doing it for attention. You're doing it for social media cloud. So it's like, find the boundaries of just like, are you trying to be helpful or are you trying to get attention? And ask yourself that question. And that should dictate how you react, what you post and what you do with your information. Oh, yeah. Oh my God. I could so easily see someone like genuinely getting sucked into a cult of their own creation based on like their own desire to be seen by this community. And it kind of like, colonizing all of their time. And again, vitamin D is an important nutrient. Okay. So now we're going to

transition into playing a little game. Actually, Chelsea invented this game. And it is called Culty Madlibs. So we're going to play murder edition today, Culty Madlib's murder edition. We're going to ask you for a bunch of random words. And then we're going to plug them into a totally fictional murder case and see how quickly TikTok can turn it into a 97 part investigation. Okay. Okay. So first thing, Annie, can you give me a rich person profession? Hedge fund manager. A location. Naples, Florida.

A celebrity? Chloe Kardashian. An adjective. Smelly. Something suspicious to Google. How to dismember. Girl, that was off the top of the dome. Unfortunately, a lot of people do actually Google search that.

Oh. Wait, Chelsea, what would you have said? My answer would have immediately been sexual. Absolutely sexual. I went sex first. Sex first. And our Google search would have been immediately flagged. And Annie would have not been.

A household item. Bleach. Girl, you're good. A reason to murder someone. Life insurance. A dramatic phrase. If I can't have you, no one can. Ooh.

Damn. Why are you so good at this? I was about to say eureka. She... Okay, okay. A couple more. A color. Green.

An embarrassing item. Poopery. Last one, a different celebrity than Chloe Kardashian. Emma Roberts. Amazing. Oh, my God. Chelsea, will you read it? Okay.

This is from the mind of Annie Elise. Breaking. A wealthy hedge fund manager has been found dead inside Naples, Florida, clutching a photograph of Chloe Kardashian. Police initially ruled the death suspicious. but TikTok investigators immediately noticed something darker. Just 48 hours earlier, the victim had Googled how to dismember. Attention quickly turned to the victim's smelly spouse,

who claimed to be home alone with bleach at the time of the murder. But according to one TikTok creator with 2.4 million followers, the real motive was life insurance. Within hours, commenters were flooding the suspect. Instagram with, if I can't have you, no one can. Supporters of the victim began wearing green, and someone on Reddit discovered that police had removed poopery from the house.

That was all TikTok needed. A 63-part series titled The Truth They Don't Want You to Know, accused Emma Roberts of orchestrating the entire murder. There's currently no evidence supporting this theory. Insane. Feels like I just read about that yesterday. I love inside Naples, Florida. Like it's a tunnel.

I'm dead. This was like the perfect game to play because like, Annie, to your point, it really highlights how ridiculous some of these sleuth theories can get because they sound just like a madlives. Anyways, Annie, holy shit. Thank you so much for joining us. If our listeners want to keep up with you and your cult, where can they do that? Yeah, I put out new episodes on YouTube.

and all the podcast apps every Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday. And Instagram is at underscore Annie Elites. Beautiful. Hell yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me. All right, Chelsea. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out.

Which do you think the cult of TikTok sleuths falls into? I am going to have to say that the cult of TikTok sleuths is a watch your back. And I know on my true crimey, even the new listeners, they're probably going to come from my neck for that one. Oh, please don't. But again, it's all too real. It's too real. I think it's a watcher back because I feel like there is a very thin line between asking

questions and then becoming convinced that you know more than the people that are actually involved in these cases. So yeah, I think it becomes a slippery slope. It's okay to consume the content, but just, you know, I would say just be weary. What do you think? I totally agree. I think the worst consequences are bad enough to put it in the watcherback category. It's not as dangerous and destructive as the cult of in cells. You know, for example, which it's just a net negative in every single way. There are some positives here, but it can overtake people's lives and minds such that they lose touch with reality and probably their most authentic lives and true values sometimes. And for that reason, I'm out. But you can stay in if you want. Just watch your damn back.

Take a hot girl walk. Take a walk. Touch some grass. Please. Well, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, time, stay culty. But not too, culty. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the pod cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Chelsea Charles. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our coordinator is Meg Farrell. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show.

You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Overtinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality, and Wordslet, a Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month.

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