Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Trader Joe's

Episode Date: February 1, 2022

Trader Joe's, the most beloved "neighborhood grocery store" in America, has a super-loyal "cult following"... a sentiment that needs no explanation. The limited-edition niche products (like cookie butter and lemon ricotta), kitschy nautical aesthetic, and ridiculously friendly employees have spawned a generation of obsessed customers, who will wait in the rain, sleet, and snow to shop at TJs and spend hours connecting with other fanatics in TJ lovers Facebook groups. But is there a more sinister side to the "cult" of Trader Joe's? Are their corporate practices shady? Why *are* their employees so nice? With the help of sooo many Reddit forums and even more listener call-ins, Isa and Amanda investigate...     Follow us on Instagram: @soundslikeacultpod, and hosts @isaamedinaa and @amanda_montell

Hey, my name is Taylor. I'm from Los Angeles, California. I feel like the cultiest thing about Trader Joe's is the obsession with products. The fact that the products are so niche that you can't get them anywhere else. I'm Carrie from Florida and the cultiest thing about Trader Joe's is cookie butter. People are absolutely obsessed with everything involving it. There's just this universal understanding that you walk in without a grocery store list, you just feel the vibes and go off of that as if there's some omnipresent being telling you what to get. And if that's not worshipping a central figure without knowing it, I don't know what it is.

All right, Amanda. Fuck Mary Kill. Ooh, Trader Joe's cookie butter. Ooh, everything but the bagel seasoning or their cauliflower gnocchi. Don't make me choose amongst my children. Yeah, those are hard because those are the three different food groups. So they are. Okay, I'm going to have to say Mary the cauliflower gnocchi. Oh, because that's like a full entree. Strong. Yeah. Fuck the cookie butter and kill the everything but the bagel seasoning. Is that your answer as well? Oh, no, actually, I would kill the cauliflower gnocchi. Sorry. That's okay. No, I understand. It's just I'm a poppy seed bagel lady. Okay. You don't need all those other things. No, I don't need everything. Well, I feel like I have

most things in everything with the bagel seasoning. Yeah. And this is the thing is that Trader Joe's just takes a bunch of shit you already have and slaps some adorable branding on it and says, look at me join my cult. In doing research for this episode, I saw they have everything but the elote seasoning. That's just Taheen. What are they doing? The power of top level marketing. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Amanda Montel, author of the book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism. I'm Issa Medina and I'm a comedian. Every week on our show, we discuss a different fanatical group from the zeitgeist from CrossFit to the beauty industry to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult,

but is it really? And if so, which one of our cult categories does it fall into? A Live Your Life, a Watch Your Back, or a Get the Fuck Out? To join our cult, follow us on Instagram at SoundsLikeACultPod. I'm on IG at Amanda underscore Montel and I'm on IG at Issa Medina. And now let's get right to this week's much requested topic, the cult of- oh my god that's a terrifying drum roll. Why can't we drum roll? There we go. The Cult of Trader Joe's. Yay! We do our own sound effects. Yeah, we are so multi-towned. We're triple threats. We really are. We mentioned Trader Joe's. I feel like very, very early on in this show thinking maybe we'll do it eventually. People probably don't care, but a lot of folks followed up and were like, don't forget to

do the Cult of Trader Joe's. Every time I go to Trader Joe's, I remember. I look around at those Hawaiian shirts and wood-paneled walls and I'm like, why do I feel like I'm belong here? Yeah. It is a cult that we all love, adore, and that's because we're hungry. Yes. We are hungry, financially strapped, millennials. And we hate cooking. Yes. We love a pre-made meal. A frozen, yeah, a microwavable delight. Yum. But perhaps let's get some background on Trader Joe's because at least for me, I think of it as a force as stable and enduring as the sun or gravity. But Trader Joe's is a grocery store. It's not a phenomenon of nature. It had to have started somewhere. And where did it start? And why and how? It actually started right in our backyard,

Amanda. Oh, what? Yeah. Trader Joe's was founded in Pasadena, California in 1967 by Joe Colombe. So he's Trader Joe? He is. I see. Also, Pasadena, hello, does that ring any bells? No. Pasadena's the same place that Lula Rowe was founded. Oh my God. What is in the water in Pasadena? Have you ever been to Pasadena? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's like this Pleasantville mom vibe. And I almost feel like Trader Joe's is like the grocery store version of that. Yeah. It's idealistic. It's American. It's homey, but still kind of hip. It's like the Starbucks of grocery stores. But it started in the 60s? Yeah, 1967. I think of it as such a contemporary brand. But now that I think about it, the aesthetic of Trader Joe's is so kitschy and so vintagey that it actually makes

sense totally. At that time period, the nautical theme was actually just a trendy thing that people were doing in their homes. I never thought of it as nautical because when I think of nautical, I think of the color blue. It's a little color association for you. But the sea? Yes, the sea. But are there life rafts hanging from the walls in Trader Joe's store located? There are life rafts. Their shirts are literally like Hawaiian shirts. Hawaiian shirts. Yes. And their name tags say like crew. And if you go to the checkout line, you can see that like every checkout station is kind of like a little boat. And it has a little bell. Oh my God. All of this subliminal messaging. I feel like I'm on an adventure when I'm at Trader Joe's. Yeah. And you don't notice it because

we're so used to it. Right. But also like even the snack, not I call it the snack section. All of it's a snack section. Where they give you the free samples. Like the snack section. You go to Trader Joe's just to eat the free samples and leave. That snack section is a little boat. Right. Right. Right. So the nautical theme runs deep. But our guy Joe, the reason he came up with Trader Joe's as this grocery store is because he wanted to like open up a store front. And he noticed that there was a missing space in the market for stores with niche goods. Okay. You know, when you go to a grocery store, you see all kinds of products. It's like that choosers paradox where like you have a thousand brands of cereal. But when you

go to Trader Joe's, you see the chocolate cereal, strawberry cereal, and it's the brand of the grocery store. Right. So he solves that choosers paradox. Yeah. But it wasn't an overnight success. Like I said, it started in 1967. And then in the nineties, he expanded to the east coast, which was really when it took off. And from there on, it kind of became this like household. I want to say global phenomenon, but literally domestic phenomenon. Yeah, it became a household name. Trader Joe's branding and their optics were getting kind of old. But then we hit like the social media time period where their brand kind of became camp. I think it became cool that it was old school and vintagey. And they just leaned into it and that became their marketing brand.

Yes. I think part of what makes Trader Joe's a cult followed brand is the fact that right, like just as millennials were starting to get old enough to go grocery shopping by themselves, they noticed that the Trader Joe's branding and products really, really appealed to them. When I think of Trader Joe's, I think of this brand that is at once kind of worldly because they have all these international foods. It's like your Indian food is right next to your Mexican food is right next to your pasta from Trader Joe's, which makes you feel like you just got off the plane from studying abroad in Florence. Like millennials love to feel well traveled. So it's at the same time worldly, but also very quaint, like a neighborhood general store. Exactly. Like

the wood paneled walls and the handwritten signs. You almost feel like you're in a family run grocery store, even though it is this massive brand. And the stores are intentionally kept small to make them feel like this like tight knit community. My name is Will, and I work at a Trader Joe's in Portland, Oregon. The cultiest thing I would say is that everyone at my store who is in a relationship is either dating or married to another Trader Joe's employee. Hi, Issa and Amanda, longtime listener, first time caller. My name is Karen, and I currently live in Seattle, Washington. And I actually used to be an employee at Trader Joe's. I worked in the New York City location in my early 20s. And I would say that

the cultiest thing about being a Trader Joe's employee was that we were regularly encouraged to talk about Dan Bain, the CEO, and just how great and wonderful and kind he was. We had a picture of him in the break room, and we referred to him as Uncle Dan. Also, we had the largest location at the time in the country, and we'd have to limit the amount of people that we let in at one time. We on a daily basis would have a line around the block. It didn't matter whether rain, heatwave, snowstorm, people would line up. And I don't think there's any other grocery store where people do that just to shop there. Let's back up a bit, because we've found that when we say Trader Joe's is a cult, a lot of our listeners instinctively know exactly where we're

coming from because the brand is so zealously worshiped for so many different reasons. But we want to go through all of these elements to try and figure out if there's any sort of sinister side to the brand being a cult favorite, or if that label is purely innocent hyperbole. When you think of the cult of Trader Joe's, what makes it culty, what springs to mind? For me, it's the products, the product loyalty. If you actually are a loyal Trader Joe's culty, you won't shut the fuck up about it. You're like, oh my god, did you go and did you see that they had the seasonal cookies? Oh my god, did you know that there is a Trader Joe's favorite products Facebook group with over 800,000 members? What? 800,000? No, I did not know that.

Yeah, I joined it just to check it out for this episode. And so it's this online sanctuary, I guess, for Trader Joe's super fans to connect and talk about the products and freak out whenever something is back in stock. That's very culty, but in really cute, nerdy way. I love that for them. Well, this is what's great about shopping at Trader Joe's and what's not so great about it at the very same time is that it's like this specialty niche store that you're talking about. It's not the place where you go to stock up on groceries for your family of five. No. It's where you go for that sense of discovery. And that's one of the cultiest things about the experience at Trader Joe's for me is that they're creating this environment that is triggering your dopamine and

serotonin because every time you go to Trader Joe's, you're going to get something different. It's like, what seasonal items do they have this time? Are they going to have my favorite product? Is it back in stock? They're giving you this visceral experience that is much more addictive chemically than an experience that you would get at Ralph's or Giant or whatever. Yeah, and it keeps you coming back because you don't know if they're going to have that product. Exactly. And this is intentional. We should add on the part of Trader Joe's. People get really fixated on the products in part because of that scarcity, right? It's like gambling. Every time you go into Trader Joe's, it's like pulling a slap machine. Are they going to have my favorite pumpkin spice

scones? Are they going to have this super rare in-demand product? And if they do and you get your hands on it, that makes you feel special. It makes you feel chosen. And if they don't, well, then you're just going to have to come back next time. It's very clever on their part. I also think when I think about the cult of Trader Joe's, I think about the customer service and the way that they treat you and the way that their employees act with you. Well, the rumor is that the cashiers are taught to flirt with you on purpose. Yes, that's what they say. Actually, a listener messaged us with a kind of hilarious take on the Trader Joe staff making strong eye contact with every single customer and making everyone feel like they want to be

your best friend. She said the friendliness is kind of eerie, not dissimilar to Christian missionaries smiling too much as a way to coax you into the fold. Almost like a mild form of love bombing. The vibe really reminds me of evangelical groups at college that are trying to recruit you to join up. Yeah, they say that they train you to flirt with people. But turns out after reading a couple forums, that's not true. There was a glamour article literally titled No, Trader Joe's employees are not trained to flirt with us. And they interviewed a couple people and a girl said, Oh, God, no, Trader Joe's employees do not get trained to flirt. So it is 100% confirmed that they're just nice. Wow. Plot twist plot twist. I have a friend who's a

fellow comedian and when he was unemployed, he interviewed at Trader Joe's like five times. Really? Because he wanted to work there so bad. He wanted to work there because they pay really well and there was one across the street from his apartment. But it's really hard to get a job at Trader Joe's. Oh, exclusive. Yeah. And so it seems like Trader Joe's just prioritizing hiring people who are outgoing and friendly like comedians or ex theater kids and the people who kind of treat the whole world as their stage, you know, very that. I think another thing that springs to mind when I think of what makes Trader Joe's culty is the sense of ritual that quaint, cheeky family culture of every Trader Joe's is very meticulously baked into every part of the brand. And that just makes

it feel like more than a grocery store. You were saying all of the employees have these different nautical themed titles. Exactly. Mate, crew, captain, merchant instead of like manager, cashier. Yes. And they have like a communication system with the bell. Yeah. Like instead of normal grocery stores, they would have like a speaker system where they like just call someone to the front. They have just a bell old fashioned and the number of times that they ring the bell means different things like we need. Yeah, exactly. Like we need a cashier at the front desk. We need someone at customer service or I think when you use a recyclable bag, they like ring the bell for fun. And also, have you ever noticed that when you put your credit card instead of just being like

ding ding ding when you're supposed to pull the credit card out, it plays a little song. Oh yeah. So there's just like this sense of whimsy that I think is also part of what makes people want to come back and come back and come back. Yeah. Because it's like, no matter how chaotic and tragic the world gets out there, you know that you can always come to Trader Joe's and have someone smile at you and hear your little credit card song and unconsciously that bestows people with this sense of home. I also think like you were saying before, the grocery store having such small square footage and offering such a small number of products compared to other grocery stores also really resonates with millennials who just have too many choices in general for the directions that

their life can go in. Yeah. It's like when we were growing up, our parents told us you can be anything you want to be and then it wound up that the pressure of that was just crushing. And when you can walk into a Trader Joe's and have an almost escapist experience that's not going to be stressful, that can feel really comforting. And I think that's why people think that when you get to check out, people are flirting with you because I think you're relaxed. You barely had to make any choices for the last 30 minutes. I know it's like we're so stressed in our everyday life that the second we step into the oasis of a Trader Joe's and see someone smile at us, we like creamer pants. Oh my God, they're in love with me. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about like what makes Trader Joe's culty,

but I really think what we're talking about is really just what makes smart branding and like what makes smart marketing. And that's where they do a good job of leaning in. They actually have a podcast. Oh, and the podcast has like recipes and they also have a TikTok. So they lean into this like 360 branding where it's like wink, wink, we know we're kind of culty. Yeah, but it's just marketing. The overlap between smart marketing and dangerous cultishness, there is a Venn diagram there. And I want to look into it a little more closely because, you know, like there has to be some kind of darker reason why we all have this feeling that Trader Joe's is a cult. Hi, my name is Erin and I'm from Boston. I think the cultiest thing about Trader Joe's

is how their employees turn into your own personal hype squad and flirt with you in an effort to get you to come back. I'm Mackenzie Manley from Cincinnati, Ohio. The cultiest part of Trader Joe's is the way they love Bombay while you're checking out. My name's S and I'm from the Midwest. I think that the cultiest thing about Trader Joe's has to be how all of their workers are attractive, like all of them. I mean, we should start to talk about some of the negative qualities because we looked into it. We did. We looked into it because as we do with every episode, we, you know, we want to give you a big picture look into the subject matter. And then we want to look into the worst aspects of it and the best aspects of it. Yeah. And we did a deep dive.

So many Reddit forums. Let me tell you, like they either have amazing lawyers or the people who work there are just happy. Yes. I was on Reddit and I found this Trader Joe's employee asked me anything for him. And I was like, ooh, tea. Like this is where all the tea is going to get spilled. And literally every single question they had for the employees were just like, when is the low fat mozzarella coming back? It was like, everybody was just desperate to find out when their favorite product was going to return. And the guy responding was so sweet and so warm. I think one person asked, are you happy there? And he was like, yeah, morale has dipped a little bit in the pandemic. You know, there are problems here and there as there are with any

company, but you know, I've worked here for five years. I wouldn't necessarily consider it my long term career, but like it's an enjoyable experience. Yeah. But of course, like anything, Trader Joe's does have a couple downfalls. We should talk about them to zoom out a little bit and look at the big picture. There are not many Trader Joe's in like low income areas, even though it is a really affordable grocery store. And I think they do that intentionally. Again, because of their marketing, they don't want to be seen as like a low income as like down market or whatever they want to be seen. Right. So they do appeal to this stereotype who like is struggling financially, but has privilege is struggling financially, but like is still able to afford like stupid shit at the

grocery store. You know, totally. I think Trader Joe's is like a mirror reflecting a lot of like white neoliberalism right back at us. You know, like, yes, a lot of millennials are struggling financially, not to the point of destitution, but to the point where like we're not able to afford the top shelf grocery. We're like going to Whole Foods is a treat. Yeah. Oh, for sure. But at the same time, we want to feel cultured and we want to feel like we're experiencing something exclusive and special and elevated. And Trader Joe's provides that experience. I also think like something that, you know, on the negative side, in terms of the prices and the products from what I learned, yes, their prices are cheap and they never have sales because the prices are always consistent.

But you can definitely get cheaper shit at your local grocery store 100% because especially with their frozen food section, I'm pretty sure that like some of their frozen food is the same as frozen food sold in other grocery stores. It just like it is repackaged and made to look a lot cooler. It's things that you would never think to buy at a regular grocery store because you're like, oh, that looks disgusting. But they literally just rebranded and then you're like, oh, I'm eating this phenomenal orange chicken. Well, like you were saying before that everything but the alote seasoning being rebranded for like white English speaking millennials even though it's food with a history and culture behind it. Yeah, exactly. Hey, Amanda and Nisa. I'm Brooke from Los Angeles

and okay, don't get me wrong. I love Trader Joe's and I'm fully a part of the TJ's cult. But like the thing about TJ's that's really giving me culty brainwashing energy is the fact that this grocery store is very clearly island nation imperialism themed and everybody still shops here and is enjoying like the kitschy aesthetic and seems completely in phase. Hi, my name is Alia. I live in New York City. I absolutely adore Trader Joe's to the extent that we did a full episode on Trader Joe's for our podcast, The Queer Arabs and just talked about why it's our religion, basically. So the Facebook group in itself is definitely a cult. And then within that, there are certain products that are like subcults. One of the biggest ones is the lemon ricotta.

People are always talking about like, oh, which locations have it? Do you want me to ship it to you? And then if someone posts that they got like three people will swoop in in the comments and freak out like, I can't believe you bought multiples. Each of us like has the right to try it. Okay, so I think the cultiest, cultiest thing I could find about the institution of Trader Joe's was some complaints about how anti union they are. Some higher ups have been known to preach against unions. I know Starbucks does this too, but they discourage the formation of unions, maybe because they're asking for more rights or more pay. But I'm paraphrasing here. I think it's because they don't want a middleman to intervene with that family culture that they

build. They don't want a third party to come in and disrupt their little family cult. And whenever a business starts to call themselves a family, that's when you know. No, it's a red flag. You're not a fucking family. Just searching on the internet. Cultiest thing that I could find was a glass door review that someone wrote. The title was soul sucking grocery store that operates like a religious cult. And they actually listed quite a few pros of the company. They said main positive is that this company gave me a job in a tough economy. Pay was okay compared with other grocery store jobs, but still not enough to live comfortably. Work was physically demanding. So I got in shape and gave up my gym membership. Okay, so they got out of the cult of CrossFit and joined the cult of Trader

Jones. They said the cons though, this company went downhill after the original owner died. Joe, our trader, the trader with a D not Trader Jones. They hired a new CEO and started treating employees like garbage by taking away their health insurance and creating more and more arbitrary and nonsensical rules to make work difficult. Didn't include any specifics, but nonsensical rules is culty. The place is very cultish as well. It was as if my coworkers had drank the proverbial Kool-Aid and didn't realize the obvious that they were working in a grocery store that sells designer food to self entitled rich people. So it seems that this one former employee didn't like that Trader Joe's culture kind of made it seem like they were all doing something,

you know, more important than running a trendy supermarket. I totally get that. But honestly, I don't know if I see anything fully wrong with that. Like creating a larger purpose is kind of a good way to motivate your employees. And according to this refinery 29 article, someone said that that was a big misconception that like the crew is all acting happy by force. They literally said that was not the case at all. I was genuinely happy to help people. And like I mentioned, I was it was easy to be happy and kind since everyone around me was happy and kind. It's just like their company culture is just like a vibe. I can be cynical like this too. It's like relax, you're working in a grocery store, you're not changing the world. Yeah. At the same time,

all successful companies these days have what are called organizational ideologies. In other words, millennial consumers especially want to feel like when they buy a product or work for a company that they're part of something bigger than themselves that the brand comes with identity benefits, meaning working or shopping at Trader Joe's makes you, I don't know, a cultured cute hip person who belongs. It is not difficult to come across articles online like 14 ways to run your business like a cult. You know, yeah, some companies take their organizational ideologies way too far and make gigantic false promises like MLMs are the perfect example of that. It seems like up until the pandemic at least Trader Joe's hadn't crossed that line. But we received a very interesting somewhat troubling

message from a listener letting us know that at least for employees, Trader Joe's has gotten way cultier in COVID times. Uh-oh. So former Trader Joe's employee who listens to our show DM'd us this anonymously. They said, Trader Joe's claims to be motivated by seven core values, integrity, no bureaucracy, product driven, neighborhood focused. Each store has its own brand creating a wow experience for customers. And lastly, this Japanese business philosophy, which basically says that all employees can bring solutions to problems. They said, I fell hard for these core values believing that TJ's was unlike any other corporation I'd worked for. I was very lucky to be hired into the sign making department, which on the surface sounds like a

really cool position since it offers the opportunity for up and coming artists to develop skills in sign making. Every illusion that Trader Joe's had put into place to convince crew and customers that they're not like other grocery stores absolutely crumbled once the pandemic hit. My coworkers and I were told by our captain, TJ terminology for store manager, that we were not allowed to wear gloves at the register because it would alarm the customers. We literally had to get notes from our doctors giving us permission to wear gloves while we were working at the registers. Not only that, but one of my coworkers had to even get a note to wear a mask while it worked. Eventually they allowed us to wear PPE probably because of all the complaints.

Naturally this kind of stuff wouldn't get under my skin. This is corporate America. Employees treat their crew as expendable. I've experienced that plenty of times at plenty of other companies, but none of them claim to have these core values. Trader Joe's is constantly reminding us that their crew is the most important thing to them. They made sure to remind us how important integrity was right before announcing that they were cutting our 401k in half. That was the last straw for me. I left after that. If you go to Trader Joe's page on LinkedIn, you'll see that they have comments turned off on all their posts. That's because they're a countless crew that are fed up with their lives. Every time they post publicly about how their crew is the most important asset,

crew are locked and loaded with remarks letting the public know how they're really run. That is classic corporate America. As someone who has been fired before, you don't trust companies. You can chalk that up to like unfortunately run company. The fact that they're hiding some of these shitty treatment behind these core values is the culty part of that to me because it's a little gaslighty. It's like, we care about you. We care about you. We care about you. We care about you. Oh, you feel mistreated. That's not real. Yeah, and they lean into only the positive. Hi, I'm Alex. I'm from Southern California. I just want to give kind of a personal experience that I've had at Trader Joe's that definitely lends me to believe it's kind of

culty, but I still love to shop there. I got out of a very abusive toxic relationship after three years. I got a new place after that. I went shopping at Trader Joe's for some staples and essentials to kind of hold me over. The person that was checking me out made a comment about me buying a lot of staples and essentials that kind of let her know I'm starting over and then she got me a bouquet of flowers. She didn't charge me. She gave me a free bouquet of flowers and I just kind of stood there and saw I was in a very emotional state. She let me know that they're able to do that whenever they want to brighten a customer's day. So of course, that was an extreme act of kindness that really livened up my day. But looking into kind of the mindset of is Trader

Joe's cult, it could be seen as a culty move. Healing the wounded puppy after they've been hurt and offering them kind of a safe place. I love Trader Joe's. I love my local Trader Joe's. They know me. I'm thrilled to be part of that community, but I am also a fellow culty. So I, you know, I love it. I mean, what do you guys think out of the three cult categories is Trader Joe's A Live Your Life, A Watch Your Back, or Get the Fuck Out. Amanda, I think all the culty elements we discussed from the consumer side, like the branding and whatnot, is a pure live your life. But I think the corporate side is a different situation. I completely agree. Like if you're going to go shopping there, like fucking buy that shit, you know, but if you work there,

I feel like because they lean so far into the positive messaging, then you have to remind yourself that it's a corporation and you have to watch your back. 100%. I think treating employees shittily and hiding behind those core values puts it in the Watch Your Back territory. And I also think it's no coincidence that this shady stuff came up during COVID times because I think it reflects how the pandemic just brought out the general cultishness in our culture at large. Yeah, it really was like corporations do not care about you. And it was a reminder that you have to always look out for yourself. But like our listener said, you can just leave, you can just up and quit that job. You're not being forced down to that job.

Yeah, I think that makes it less culty than some of the other Get the Fuck Outs or even Watch Your Backs that we've discussed on the show because the psychological damage is not so intense that you can't kind of just quit. Yeah, which can be hard, you know, you'll have to figure out how to make an income, but like, you know, there are other systems in place in society to help you. And the romance surrounding the brand might be sort of ruined, but we cannot compare this to an actual Get the Fuck Out level cult. It's Trader Joe's. That's our episode. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds like a cult was created, edited and produced by Amanda Montell and Issa Medina.

Kate Elizabeth is our editor. Our podcast studio is all things comedy and our theme music is by Casey Colby. Subscribe to Sounds Like a Cult wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss an episode. And if you like our show, we'd love if you could give us a rating on Spotify and or app podcasts.