Speaking of Psychology - Bonus Episode: The College Admissions Scandal and the Psychology of Affluence

Episode Date: March 15, 2019

The college admissions bribery scandal has generated a lot of conversations about the role of affluence and privilege in higher education. What would cause a parent to go to such great lengths to ensure their child’s spot at a prestigious university? What does this tell us about our high-pressure society? Our guest for this bonus episode is Suniya S. Luthar, PhD, foundation professor of psychology at Arizona State University, and an expert on affluence, resilience and adolescent development. APA is currently seeking proposals for APA 2020 sessions, learn more at http://convention.apa.org/proposals Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, a podcast from the American Psychological Association. I'm your host, Caitlin Luna. Today we're doing a bonus episode related to the college admissions bribery scandal that was exposed this week. This is the case in which prosecutors accused affluent parents of paying a consultant to get their children into prestigious universities by having someone else take their SATs or by fabricating athletic achievements. Our guest for this episode is Dr. Sunia Luther, Foundation Professor of Psychology at Arizona State University. She specializes in adolescent development, vulnerability and resilience in young people in poverty, as well as teens from upper middle class families. Dr. Luther was also featured in a 2014 episode of Speaking of Psychology called The Mental Price of Affluence. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Luther. It's great to have you back on the show.

It's my pleasure. So developing an identity and learning autonomy are crucial parts of growing up. And of course, parents can help their teens navigate the college application process, but teens really should have some level of control over it. So if a parent is basically doing everything to get their kid into a college, how does that affect their teen's self-esteem? Well, yes, I agree with you that adolescence is a time when kids should be developing a sense of autonomy, their own identity, and so on.

and in this current generation of youngsters, that is not the case for many of them who are aiming to get into the better colleges and schools. Having said that, I don't believe it's fair to put the blame squarely on the parents. Why do I say that? Because this pressure to get ahead doesn't come only from parents. People ask me, Professor Luther, where does this pressure come from? And my answer typically is, where does it not come from? It comes from parents.

It comes from teachers and coaches who want their kids to be, you know, one state levels and have all these accolades. It comes from peers. They compare notes with each other constantly. And it comes from kids themselves. So while I agree with you that young people, adolescents these days, in this demographic, particularly don't have that, who am I, the choice to say who am I, explore that sense of identity.

I don't believe it's the fault of the parents. I believe it's the fault of a system that is basically corraling the kids as a herd toward do everything you possibly can academically and in terms of extracurriculism. That is your job. That is who you are for all these years. And what is it doing to mental health of our teens today, children and teens? The toll this extracts on them is enormous. You know, people often speak about some people too about teenagers today being. overprotected and Molly coddled and such. Truthfully, my own take on this is that they're

horrendously overworked, horrendously overworked. You know, we read about the lack of sleep and so on, the rates of depression, self-harm, tragically suicide, substance abuse. Our kids are under such enormous pressure and strain, even something that was, it used to be fun, like playing a sport, or playing a musical instrument. Even that now is pursued with grim determination as a means to an end. So they're, and very heavily scrutinized by an audience that is the entire school, parents or the entire community, local community. So the pressure of all of this is just so astronomical.

It is no wonder that our children are showing such high and increasing levels of depression, anxiety and substance use. Let me add one more thing. There was an article that just was published, I think, yesterday, the day before in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology on trends of increasing depression over time. And while there have been increases in all social demographic groups, I understand that the steepest gains, the steepest rises, increases have been among the highest income level youth. In other words, the teenagers from the most affluent families are the ones who show the steepest rises in levels of depressive symptoms over time. So this is not something we're imagining. That is one set of findings. Another one is a report issued by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, where they listed the top four environments that sort of jeopardize adolescent well-being. The first three are not surprising. One is exposure to poverty. Second is trauma. Third is discrimination. And fourth is

excessive pressures to achieve, usually seen in affluent, not always, but usually seen in affluent communities. So this is not something that we are imagining. This is not a one-town phenomenon or an East Coast phenomenon. This is it generalizes to upper middle class upwardly mobile, well-educated families

all over the country. This is not just the Uber rich. So what advice do you have for parents in this situation when they're faced with mounting pressures from all sides? So I have advice for parents, but even before we go there, I want to underscore one more time,

let's stop parents blaming. You know, the truth is those of us who've had the good fortune of attending good colleges and universities, it's not unnatural for parents to want the same for their children, right? You agree with me? Oh, yeah, absolutely, of course. Right. So what advice do I have for parents? My advice is, by all means, strive for the best, aim for the best you can for your children. help them pursue whatever activities and academic activities and extracurriculars that they want to.

But be watchful for when they are getting too stressed, too anxious, burned out, and unhappy. Be watchful. At that point, it is important for you to say, sweetheart, is it time to drop it down a notch? Maybe there's something we need to pull back from, watch out for your child's seat. obviously. I know this is a hard thing to do because as a parents do want their kids to get ahead, but in this day and age, it's absolutely critical that we watch out for this. Stop with do more. Stop with this. You can, therefore you must. Stop with this. Just try harder. Yeah, I do want to focus a little bit on what I was talking about on the situation that came to light this week,

which does focus on parents and coaches. Do you think the parents in the alleged scheme deprive their children have the chance to make important decisions for themselves? Going back to that first question I had about developing identity and autonomy. I think what the parents did was over the top. Obviously, it's illegal and it's corrupt. Having said that again, I raised my own kids in Westchester County, New York. They went through the same kind of pressure to achieve and accomplish. And truthfully, all of us parents do whatever we can to help our kids. Does that mean we're taking away a sense of control from them? Not necessarily. As I said, a lot of this becomes self-propelled. They do the extra AP course and the extra sport and so on, because somehow in their minds that one extra,

whatever it is, is going to make the hair's difference between acceptance or rejection from a college of their choice. So I'm not sure that parents are necessarily robbing their kids of a sense of control in this particular situation any more than all of us do. Am I, do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. But I also want to understand, like, so why would failure be important for children and teens? I mean, we're facing these mounting pressures that he said, even things that were fun, like a sport or music becomes a chore because it's related to accolades and achievement and,

you know, being the best going to stay. championships, that sort of thing. But as a psychologist, why do you think it's, why do you think it's important for teens and children to experience failure at some level in their lives? I think it's important for teens and children to experience failure just like it is for us. That said, once again, it's not clear to me that they don't. It's really not clear to me that they don't. As I said, I see this generation of kids as being humongous, terribly overworked. And if they are striving to be on that lacrosse team and a starter on the field hockey team, and the number of things they set themselves up to do, and these are high-level things,

they do experience failures. They have to. And what do you think this situation shows us about meritocracy? Do you think there is a meritocracy out there, or is there a lack of it where you achieve based on what your, and your skills and abilities, as opposed to perhaps having access to more resources and that sort of thing. There's no question that having access to more resources tips the balance in your favor. Just even the system of legacies.

It's just one example of how things. Legacies and athletics. It's flummoxers one to think that just because you play a sport, your chances of getting to top-nought school are better. Why not? Because you're a champion chess player or a beautiful vice. violinist. There are some inequities and some things that just don't make very good sense in terms of how admissions are structured and not entirely fair. So do you think this shows that education

does not necessarily resolve societies and equities because there's always people coming at different levels. I mean, you study teens and adults, I'm sorry, children and teens and poverty and also teens and children who are from affluent families. I think the inequities, in our society currently do play into this. I think what our young people are feeling now is that if I don't make the same level of money that my parents do, then I'm somehow going to be left behind. So young people are aspiring to have the same education experiences, careers, and standard of living that their parents did, do.

And the truth is that it is, in fact, much more difficult to do that in today's day and age, economics, globalization, and so on. So what's happening is that these young people are feeling like, unless I get into that school, which is essential if I'm going to get into a high-paying job, my life is over. And someone asked me the other day, so why do they feel that? do they really feel like if they had a job as a teacher or, you know, something that is truly middle class, not top-notch, Wall Street or finance or, do they really feel like they can't survive? And the answer is, to some degree, yes, because there are teachers who have to talk about taking a second job as an Uber driver and so on to pay off the mortgage and, you know, see their kids through school and college and so on. So there is these extremes, I think, really have exacerbated this feeling of you cannot survive and lead a comfortable life. We're not talking about being rich if you don't somehow make it to that top 10, 20% of income levels. Do you think those feelings are perpetuated by what we see in news stories and everything?

Because there's a lot of stories saying, you know, this generation won't do as well as the previous generation parents. So, you know, young people coming up today in the job market are never going to achieve the same financial wealth or security as their parents. Do you think what do you think that does? I mean, is involving us, getting this involved in this whole conversation. What do you think being constantly bombarded with those messages does to us as a society? Yes, I like your phrase constantly bombarded. It is all over the news media. And back to what I was saying earlier, it's the news media, it's parents, it's their schools, you know, start getting.

tract and middle school with the area of we have to get your resume as fancy and as impressive as possible, little 12-year-olds, you know, starting from there, if not earlier. And then that the university is talking about how selective they are, that doesn't help anything. So no, by rates have gone down from, well, 10% or 7%. That doesn't help anything. And the message is also that sometimes universities put out tacitly or otherwise that you I'm here and you're on the path to something really grand once you graduate. So it is truly is a message that youngsters and we as parents as we're trying to raise our

kids through their schooling and college are getting pretty much on a constant basis. Yeah, absolutely. And what do you think needs to change? I mean, what do you see that we need to do to make this a better situation, just less stress for everyone. Well, I mentioned one, Caitlin, that as parents that we can be watchful for levels and levels of depression, anxiety, stress, and reach out to our kids. And of course, adolescence is a time when they want to brush you off.

And they do. That's developmentally appropriate. But don't give up if you feel your child is struggling. I would say the same for schools. counselors, teachers, academic teachers, be watchful for a child is getting burnt out. Put a cap on how many AP courses you can take or how many sports you can do. I was talking to a young girl at an independent school a couple of weeks ago. And she said, my God, if only the school said you can't take more than four APs,

just the fact that I can, I feel like I have to. So this is all of us have to come together. And, you know, my work is on resilience. That's something I've studied for the last 30 years among families and kids facing stresses of all kinds. And what we've learned about resilience is one, the single most important thing is that resilience rests on relationships. And that is something that is so threatened, so falling by the wayside for so many of our adolescents today, partly because they have no time. They're rushing from pillar to post in a frenzied fashion, partly because of social media where comparisons are constant, you know, formal. People's, other people's lives are better than mine.

And partly because of competition with each other. If you think about it, adolescents, you know, we used to bond across over activities that we shared. Now you've got these two kids on the lacrosse team who are both being looked at from the scout. that's coming from X or Y University. And these kids are competing for the same things. And there is that frenzied sense of, my goodness, I have to get this at all costs. All these factors come together in fracturing what should have been a close-net, kids confiding in each other, supporting each other, being loving and helpful to each other.

All of that is getting affected in a terrible way by this, well, well, I must succeed. succeed. I have to get a head at all costs. I have to beat everybody. I have to be ahead of everybody. So you said several times during the interview that it's not all about the parents, it's about the culture. And we've talked about the larger issues we're facing it at hand. But, you know, I would imagine that it's very easy for a parent to get caught up in, in this feeling that they have to do everything for their child. Their child has to be successful. And they have to, out of love and, you know, caring for their child, they have that they have to do what they can. So what are your comments about that about how parents can maybe help themselves not to get so pulled into that mentality?

That's such an excellent question. The truth says, Caitlin, that it becomes a cultural norm. And if you decide that you're going to be, you know, you're going to opt out and say, well, I'm not doing the travel sports or I'm not doing X or Y. You are an oddball. If you say, I'm not getting the SAT teacher or the health for my child, you are an odd ball. And there are a couple of things that happen. First of all, you feel very isolated, typically, in this community. And secondly, I think parents start to question themselves.

Is this wise? If the whole 10th grade or 12th grade is doing this, what am I doing to my child? So there is a sense of worry. And somebody used this phrase the other day, it's like lemmings. We all get caught up in this. you know, in the sense of, I wrote this paper, I can, therefore I must. That applies to the kids.

It applies to the parents. And we're all living in communities where there are norms. Those norms affect how we live. Somebody has to say the emperor has no clothes. And fortunately, we are now with the research that we're doing, I go into communities. I talk with whole parent bodies, with the entire faculty, with the students. and that is slowly leading parents and kids and communities to the point of saying,

this is not working. We are looking at the data on our own kids. This is not working. And it starts with a small group of parents and then grows. There was a lovely show done by Alison Aubrey on NPR just a few months ago on the town of Wilton, Connecticut, where based on the data they saw on their own kids, they have really got mobilized a movement through their youth council with the school to dial back some of these things, to be more vigilant. As the one of the moms said, she said, if our school had

an outbreak of a serious physical illness, we'd be all over it. So why are we not doing this when we're watching these high levels of depression and anxiety? It's a long answer to your question, But yes, parents get swept up in this because it's the, in quotes, it's what we do is the way we live in our community. Slowly, slowly, patiently and gently, based on rigorous data, we are trying to say, let's dial this back just a little bit. There's another very important thing we need to consider. In fact, this may be the first order of business, which is that the parents themselves have to be replenished. and taken care of, if you will. A couple of years ago, my colleague Nancy Eisenberg and I did a special issue for this

journal Child Development. And the question we asked 11 sets of contributors was, if there was one thing that you want to change to benefit or help children who are facing adversities of various kinds, what would that be? And the single most consistent answer was, ensure the well-being of the primary caregiver, who's usually the mom. And the way that is done is by making sure the mom gets supportive. So in child development research, we're so used to thinking about parents and moms,

but what we should do, what we shouldn't do, what we do, what we don't do. But almost never stop to ask the question, how do moms even do this with the ongoing demands and challenges and stresses? So a big factor that I, when I talk to parents and communities say, ensure that you are yourself taken care of. People say, telling moms to take better care of themselves. And I said, no. I'm not adding one more thing to the already very longness.

What I'm saying is understand and understand the need for you to be tended yourself and prioritize. Make that. Make that happen. And in your research and your work, can you talk about what you see about the different pressures for children and teens? in poverty versus children and teens and affluent families. So this is an interesting couple of papers that came out of Boston, my colleagues in Boston, Rebecca Coley and Eric Dearing. They did analyses of large data sets, one of the U.S. and one in Norway, and essentially

showed a U-shaped link between school-level affluence and adjustment problems among teens, especially adolescents. And so what that means is there are elevated problems at both ends of community-level affluence. It's the kids in the poorest areas and kids in the most affluent communities that are showing higher levels of problems than those in the middle. Now, people will say, oh, why would that be? There's no question that living in poverty has enormous stresses ranging from violence on the streets to just not having enough food. to be able to survive. On the flip side, you have these specials that we've been talking about

among families and kids in relatively affluent communities where there is this, the word that I keep using is this frenzied pursuit and this panic about, oh my goodness, if I don't do this, if I don't do that, I'm going to get left behind. And that applies as much to the parents as it does to the kids. That is not a good way to live. There's never a break. There's never a time when the kids can sit back and say, ah, the next week I'm going to do nothing, but chill.

Yeah, it seems almost crazy to say that how loud, you know, to do nothing. What does that mean? I actually asked, I was in an old boy school not that long ago where, again, we've consistently seen these high levels of depression and stress. And I asked these boys, I had the luxury of sitting on and talking with them right after we did their question as. So I said, so are you happy? And they looked at me and said, what do you mean?

What do you mean by happy? So I said, oh, I don't know. Do you ever feel but chill out and relaxed? And they truthfully looked at me and says, we don't do that. It's very telling. So even their parties, right? So you said, do they get together? Yes, they do.

Even their parties have become so, once again, frenzied. There's drugs and alcohol at most of these social gatherings. In fact, it's rare to have one, but there isn't a keg or some kind of substance that's being passed around. So even that is high octane. Hurry up and enjoy yourself. You hear about pre-gaming where kids will have a few swigs of vodka or whatever, even before they get to the party so they can be relaxed enough to truly enjoy themselves. So worse in a generation ago, perhaps, yes, we had a drink or two. to chill and have fun, there's a sense, a greater sense now of drinking to get drunk,

as opposed to a laid back and fun. And are you following what I'm saying? Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, to summarize our conversation today, we really, really talking about, yes, this story is in the news and it's very sensational. There's a lot of elements to it. It's shocking on many levels. It's upsetting.

It's causing a lot of people to be angry. We're also saying this is an extreme example, a symptom of a larger societal issue we're all facing. Very well said. I'd say it's the tip of an iceberg that is really quite big and spreads across a pretty wide swath of America and the world. It's the top 20, 25, 30 percent. Everybody's who's aspiring to maintain the standard of living and wants their kids to get a good education, it spreads across all of us. And then it really takes starting small, with small pockets of people to help change this, change what we're seeing because we are seeing now the effects of our young people today with depression, substance abuse. Yeah.

Caitlin, think about the cigarette smoking and how that changed around and rates went down a few decades ago. Big part of that was research and evidence again and again showing there are risks associated. and here's what they are. In the same way, we take the same approach with our research with highly achieving schools, is to keep at it and document again and again and again across schools, independent schools, public schools, day schools, boarding schools, in cities and suburbs, east coast, west coast, down south, Midwest. Everywhere we go, we're seeing the same problem. And it's documenting it in peer-reviewed research journals and bringing those data back to communities, the general data and the data on their own school saying, all right, folks,

here's what it is. That does propel some movement forward, maybe slow, but there is definitely a beginning movement to say we need to take this very, very seriously. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for being on the show, Dr. Luther. I really appreciate your time. It's my pleasure, Caitlin. We love to hear from our listeners.

So if you have any questions, comments, or ideas to share, you can email me at K-Luna at APA.org. that's KLUNA at APA.org. Also, please consider giving us a rating in iTunes. We'd really appreciate it. Speaking of Psychology is part of the APA podcast network, which includes the podcast's APA journals dialogue about new psychological research and progress notes about the practice of psychology.

You can find all our podcasts on iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also go to our website, speakingof psychology.org to listen to more episodes. I'm Caitlin Luna with the American Psychological Association.