Speaking of Psychology - How to Cope with Political Discussions and Keep it Civil this Holiday Season (SoP 70)

Episode Date: December 19, 2018

Worried about making it through your next holiday gathering without it devolving into a political screaming match? Get advice from the experts, APA's Dr. Lynn Bufka and Dr. Jeanne Safer, host of the podcast, "I Love You But I Hate Your Politics." APA is currently seeking proposals for APA 2020, click here to learn more https://convention.apa.org/proposals Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, a podcast from the American Psychological Association. I'm your host, Caitlin Luna. I'm joined by two guests. We have Dr. Lynn Buffka, Associate Executive Director for Research and Policy at APA and an APA fellow. And we have Dr. Jeannie Safer, an APA fellow who has been in private practice for over 40 years. She's also the host of the podcast. I love you, but I hate your politics. Our discussion is on managing stress at holiday gatherings during these divisive times.

Welcome, Dr. Buffka and Dr. Safer. Glad to be here. Thanks for having us. So at this point, we've made it past Thanksgiving and Hanukkah, and now Christmas and New Year's are upon us, and for many work holiday parties. So there's no doubt in my mind that people out there have experienced at least one uncomfortable conversation with a loved one or a friend. So we're looking for advice today on how to navigate these very tricky topics.

with people we care about. So I'll start with you, Dr. Safer. What advice do you have? Well, the first thing is that everybody's nervous. It's not just you. That's why every magazine, every internet thing, has 5,000 articles on other things to talk about at the holidays, except politics. There was a thing in the New York Times about this. There was something on Huffington. Isn't it sad that we can't think of anything to talk about other than politics these days? I find that very distressing. And one of the things that I recommend to people is that you could change the subject. I give you permission. Everybody will be happy if you do. Don't rise to the bait because some people can't get off their hobby horse, but you don't have to be on there with them. And, Lynn, what advice do you have?

I think that's absolutely right, Jeannie. You don't have to talk about politics. People love to talk about themselves. If you're talking to somebody who's relatively new to you, try to figure out what they're interested in. If you share an interest with a family member or have a connection to an older relative, talk about what you have in common and get some good feelings going about what you share before you launch into anything that might be more difficult. I think that's excellent advice, but I think that you don't even have to think about launching into something more difficult. You have the other 360 plus days to talk about it. And these conversations never are good. They never go anywhere unless you really

know what you're doing and you have a plan because otherwise it always gets into terrible territory, I think. I really recommend we not do it at not at a gathering. Absolutely. Because most people, if you have a very strong difference of opinion on, you're not changing their mind at a holiday gathering. You're not changing their mind at all. And that's that's one of the points of, of my podcast and of my upcoming book with the same name. Don't go into a conversation thinking you're going to change somebody's mind because first of all, minds are very difficult to change and you're not going to accomplish it. If they do it, it's because they want to change their mind. So once you get out of the idea of trying to change somebody's mind, it opens your horizons to have a conversation.

And Lynn, you're on APA's Stress in America team. And for our November podcast about the 2018 Stress in America Report, we talked about how more than two-thirds of American adults report feeling significant stress about the fate of our nation, the state of our country right now. So how does that stress spill into conversations at holiday parties, parties and around the dinner table holidays? Well, I think, Jeannie's absolutely right. I think the challenge is to not bring it into the room.

You know, you recognize you're unlikely to change minds to shift perspectives if you have differences of opinions. So you may decide that you have a common point of view or shared concerns with some of the people you're gathering with. You may think you want to have a conversation with them, but you really want to read the room. Some people may just say, I don't want to deal with this today. This is about the holidays. This is about being with people I love. This is about giving thanks. This is about sharing.

So be respectful of that. Don't have that conversation and try to figure out other ways to contain what is causing a lot of distress for you. Take it outside on a walk if you absolutely need to be saying something to somebody, but you don't need to fill the whole room with it. There are also ways that you can learn to have a political discussion, but I think this is the advanced course, frankly, and not for a one-night stand at a holiday party. I was at a meeting this morning that was almost entirely conservative Republicans because my husband is one. And he was getting talk. And to somebody asked me, somebody I knew a little bit, said, what did you think of the Kavanaugh hearing? Now, this was a minefield, right?

I wasn't going to say, well, I thought it was outrageous. So he said, you know, I really didn't believe her. Now, I didn't get into it. I didn't say, well, I did. you know and we moved away i didn't get i didn't feel like i was going to accomplish anything by talking to this man about this although it was in a respectful way we were really on totally different sides and we were going to stay there and i think this is a very hard thing for people to accept because when you love somebody or when you like somebody you really want them to

agree with you and politics is now in the position that religion used to be in you know, as the kind of basic aspect of our identity. And it's really, I think it's very unfortunate. Now, having been married to somebody for 38 years who doesn't agree with me about anything political, I think that's pretty accurate, not one thing. I've learned that there are other ways that you can have conversations for decades that are very interesting and meaningful. Can you elaborate on that a little bit more?

Because you're a liberal, your husband's a conservative, and you recently interviewed about this for the podcast committed, which is about relationships. So you can tell us how you made your relationship work with such a different viewpoints and how you navigate these events when you go to an event when you're hearing people who have very different opinions from you. How do you go about that without creating enemies and leading with bad feelings? Well, first of all, it's good if you have 40 years experience. I'm a lot better at it now. And the way I'm better at it now is I've learned a long time ago how to do it and I practice what I preach. And one of the things, I know this is unpopular, but avoidance is a very good thing.

Now, everybody, my husband is not just a conservative. He's senior editor of National Review, which is the conservative, you know, intellectual conservative magazine. One thing I do, and I have for years, is I don't read his editorials because I know what they say. And it's also, I think, interesting. When we met in a group that sings Renaissance music. So we have many, and in fact, on the last episode of my podcast, when I interview my husband, so you can actually hear us talk, we end up singing a madrigal.

So I think that's a kind of nice metaphor for what you do instead. And political, if things come up, now there's one thing that's interesting, the Trump victory has been, I don't think so hot for the nation, but it's been great for my marriage, because my husband doesn't, is not a Trump support. And this is the first time, and all the time I've known him, that we can talk about hating somebody or disliking somebody who's in office without fighting about it. It's not like abortion. I mean, forget abortion. That's impossible. Gun control isn't so easy. But, you know, it's a job and you have to be an adult. And you have to start out, I think this is the most important thing with goodwill. You have to assume that someone else, because you can't, it's not a one might stand, you know, like at a high. holiday party, this is going to be your life, that the other person has legitimate reasons for disagreeing with you, even if you hold passionately the positions that you hold. And once you do

that, it shifts your emphasis. So a lot of it's about finding common ground. Yes, and not expecting that common ground is going to include opinions. One of the things that I've written a lot about is what is a real core value? And many people these days think that it's policy. politics. People won't date somebody who has different politics. Parents don't care if you're a different religion or race as long as you have the same politics. It's really become, there's some disturbing statistics. When I got married in 1980, 20% of couples were mixed, like they always used to be, you know. Now it's 9% in going down. People never have any experience of the other side, so they don't learn that they don't have horns and tails.

Yeah, yeah, right, and that doesn't help when you're trying to find common ground. No. In your own bubble. I mean, that's, we hear all the time about. And that's where we stay. Yeah, exactly. I mean, obviously, it's very easy with new television news tailored to your viewpoints. You're, you know, the news you look at your phone.

Yeah, the internet's all tailored to your likes and everything like that, social media. So it becomes becoming even more challenging, I probably would say. I mean, unless you're picking up a newspaper and reading it, you know, you're probably the most likely bombarded with these very polarizing. Absolutely. And you kind of assume that your position is the only true one. Now, I believe that about a lot of things. But also, I've been embedded enough in the right wing, you know, socially in certain ways,

that I also know that people could disagree passionately with me and have a legitimacy to why they feel the way they feel. Not that I agree with it. You know, as psychologist, we also, we often know patients who disagree with us about all kinds of things. And we don't sit there and say, you know, you should have my opinion instead of yours. So it's really, if we take a stance, a psychological stance, I think it's very helpful. In your point is one that we're really missing in today's discourse where a lot of times people don't want to even consider that an alternative point of view might be coming from a place that is grounded

in some values or isn't grounded in a position of, I think this would move us forward in a positive way. We tend to just dismiss other viewpoints as all wrong, an evil, bad, whatever, as opposed to being willing to understand how perhaps a shared value might exist under opposing views, but the idea of how to get forward differs. But we can't even have those discussions to understand that at this point. Unless you have something of an open mind. Correct. You can't do it.

I interviewed someone a few weeks ago for my podcast. She's a liberal, but she's also a Catholic, and she's married to a non-liberal Catholic. And she's pro-life, a pro-life liberal. Can you imagine this? And I heard this, and I thought, eh. And she said, the reason that I'm pro-life is that I believe that you have to protect innocence. Now, that's not my position, but can we say that that's an illegitimate thing to think? And I felt myself moving away from her when she said that because I disagree so strongly.

But then I thought, this woman has thought about that. And she's come to this from a decent place. Right. Yeah, exactly. I think that's sometimes what's missing is just realizing that is vilifying the other person, vilifying the other viewpoint. Yes. And that's-

Fair values like Lynn. Exactly. Yes. And that's gone way up. You know, the Democrats think that, I don't know, some horrible statistic of how many Democrats think that the Republicans are responsible for the end of civilization and vice versa. This gets us nowhere. There are people we agree with that we can't stand in many, many ways and have terrible

values. And people we disagree with who would go to the mat for us. And one of the things that my criterion that I came up, with through a lot of thought is what my husband and I call the chemotherapy test, which is when you're lying, which has happened to both of us, when you're lying in a bed getting chemotherapy from cancer, you don't ask the party registration of the person standing by your side getting you through it. That's what counts from me. I mean, that's an extreme example, but the people who show up, the people who care for you,

these are the values that are eternal. opinion in human relationships. So what are some ways we can turn these conversations, potentially, you know, rife with landmines, into something to create deeper connections. Like you mentioned, like you're, you know, and your family comes over. Yes, you might have different viewpoints about a variety of things. But clearly there's caring and love there with your friends, too. So there's something that holds you together.

So how do we use this as an opportunity to actually create deeper bonds of people we care about? Well, first of all, I think. there's some real behavioral things we can do and not do in a conversation. First of all, don't drink. That's the first thing, because as soon as you drink, you raise your voice. And that's also something that you shouldn't do, because once you drink and raise your voice, everybody thinks you're shouting, and that's the end of rational conversation. Never start a conversation by saying, how can you possibly think such and such? You've lost the person already. You can say something like, tell me your thinking on this.

If you could do it right, I don't think it's easy to do that. Tell me your thinking on this. I also believe that we should always, if you have a mixed, a relationship with somebody who has the other side, that they believe in the other side, and somebody attacks them, you should defend your partner. Now, I'll give you an example of the most difficult situation I ever had. This was years ago.

and my husband and I were at a brunch that was all psychoanalysts. And he's been in this world before. So somebody came up to him and said, well, how does it feel to be a crypto-Nazi? And I said, he laughed it off, but I said, excuse me, please don't use that word. That's a serious accusation, and it's not right. And I felt that was essential to do. Absolutely. So there are things you allow, there are things you don't allow, listen more than you talk,

you'll learn interesting things about the other side if you open your mind. You don't have to agree with them. You're not going to change their minds. If you try to figure out what their mind is, you'll have a better time. And sometimes you'll find that you both share a similar value. You might care deeply about what impacts children, but your perspective, on how we get there or what might be most important is very different. That's true.

And sometimes connecting over that shared place of, I would do anything for kids to make the world better, may help you open up to hearing they think similarly, but how they think what's most important to be done is so different. As long as if they don't say, well, what I really think is that everybody should have a gun, and then you're stuck, you know. And sometimes if you could have a sense of humor,

if you can maintain it, which is not easy. And also, this is something I really recommend. If you're getting into tricky ground, say, time out. You know, I respect your opinion, but I don't think we're going to fix this issue here and now. Tell me about your family or something. Offer another topic. You don't have to let the other person take the lead into deep water.

One of the things I find really challenging for myself is, like if someone says something offensive to me is to not, my immediate response, so I'm getting better about it is to clam up and not want to stand up for what I believe in. But, Lynn, can you speak to how you stand up for your beliefs while remaining calm and not starting a fight? How do you stand for yourself? I think it's a really good question. I think lots of people struggle with that. And part of it, you want to figure out sort of this is something really, like the example that Jeannie just gave about somebody saying something about her husband. That's something you have to stand up for that's just not right to call somebody such a violent term and so

inappropriate. And you sort of need to figure out, am I offended because I disagree with your belief? Or are you saying something that's really racist or homophobic or something attacking people? Like, you know, if you're offended because you don't like a point of view, that's different from, I'm offended because you just said something really. implied that all poor people are stupid, which is ridiculous, or that women really shouldn't be working, they should all be at home in the kitchen. You know, those kinds of things where you're sort of subjective. Well, never believe somebody who says that they were raped.

Right. Exactly. So where you're sort of saying things that clearly are classifying whole groups of individuals or any individual in a way that's just inaccurate and counter to human decency and values, that's different from being offended by somebody saying they're an ardent. gun owner rights person who might be there for different reasons that you may not like that, but I think it's really important to separate out attacks on people and groups of people from viewpoints around issues. Yes. And it's a very tricky border, isn't it? Because we feel

passionately about the things that we believe in. And the other side feels passionately, the decent ones, feel passionately about their point of view. And you can, you You could, you know, one of the things that I think it's important to give yourself permission to do is to say, we know, I understand that you feel strongly about this and for reasons that makes sense to you, but they don't make sense to me. You could, if you, the way you say things counts an awful lot. 100%. So say despite your best efforts, you still end up having a blow up with someone you care about, a family member, a friend. So how do you make amends and move on from that situation after you might have had a disagreement? I have a shocking suggestion. Apologize. Do not unfriend them. Oh, boy. It's taking a whole other action. Oh, God. That is really insane. Two brothers unfriended each other over differences in Kavanaugh. And one woman broke her engagement over differences in Kavanaugh. He wrote to me about that. But anyway, but you could say things like, I'm sorry, I spoke out of turn. I had a wonderful example of this.

and someone I interviewed. Her family is very left-wing, and she really loved them all, except her uncle, who was very right-wing, and very evangelical and really totally disagreed with everybody else in the family. But when her father died, guess who was the only one who showed up

and helped her? The guy that she didn't agree with. And she said that taught her a lot about what mattered. She didn't agree with anything he said anymore, But she wrote him a note, an actual note on paper, which I also recommend, saying, I'm sorry, I was offensive. I really didn't appreciate your excellent character and all the help you gave me. That was the right thing to do. And I think your point about apologizing is so important.

You don't need to apologize for having a different point of view. Right. But you apologize for shouting about it or being disrespectful in your conversation. conversation or otherwise moving a relationship downhill. That's what you apologize about. You don't have to take back your viewpoints and your personal values. And people confuse that. Yes. That's exactly what I was thinking. She could say, I was obnoxious on Facebook to you. That doesn't mean that she disagrees, that she doesn't hold what she holds. But the way you say something really matters. That's why you don't shout. Oh, another thing that I recommend is to not quote outside experts. When you're

having a conversation with somebody, you'll say, well, I read in such and such a place, that's such and such and such. And by all means, never give somebody an article or send them a length that they didn't ask for. That's the quickest way to offend. And so one of the things I read, when I was researching this topic, I found a Wall Street Journal article that talked about the importance of having an ally at a holiday function. Say you're with your family, you don't, you know, if you don't have a significant other, maybe bring a friend with you or having someone you can call in times of need to de-stress. So can you talk a little about why the importance of that and having someone who has your back at one of these functions? Is when you want to start? Well, I think that was,

when you think about just how stressed people can be about some of these issues, that was my earlier where I was head in earlier is it's take that person aside if you just need to decompress a little bit and say, wow, the political talk's really getting to me. I'm not having any luck changing conversations. Can we just go over here and have a little conversation that we can share some points of view or whatever you need in the moment? That can be very helpful to just get a little reality check and find out, am I misreading things? How might I handle things a little bit differently? That can be helpful in a situation where you're not having success in having everyone talk about the new puppy or the latest movie they've seen or whatever new topic.

you're trying to get everyone doing. That can be very helpful in the moment. And it can also be helpful afterwards to get a reality check and ask if you have a trusted ally to say, you know, did I cross a line two? How could I have done this differently? Or what could I have said that perhaps might not have taken things down a negative path? And maybe what you'll hear is you might not have been able to say anything, but you could have

shut up. You could have listened more. You could have had a different conversation topic. And so it can be helpful to have that reality check from somebody who knows you and is comfortable giving you that kind of feedback. Well, that's a good friend to have somebody who could say, you know, you really should have shut up. I'm kind of a little concerned about using a friend as a service animal, if you know what I mean. I don't know if I'd like to be taken to a party for that function. But we should be able, hopefully, eventually to do this for ourselves.

You know what I mean? That if you walk into a party, I mean, I walk into parties that are, all conservatives all the time. And I try to find something else to think about. And if I have to take a break and walk out of the room, I walk out of the room. Yeah. Yeah, breaks are good too. Breaks are really good. Unless, as long as you don't drink. Yeah, I'm thinking about younger people who probably haven't had as much experience with that kind of world, you know, and might need to have the support of somebody saying, you know, it's okay to do that. It's okay to take a break, to walk out. I think a lot of people find that really awkward. And, you know, you know, and, you

and uncomfortable and don't know really how to do that. So having somebody you can kind of check in with who can help you gauge the tone of the room is, is a reasonable thing. And it could be your cousin who's your age who has a different point of view, but is like, wow, I can't believe the uncles are going crazy over this stuff. Yes, that can be very helpful. It's a reality check for you. I'm just not sure I would want to invite somebody to a party for that purpose.

It's not exactly what, it's not exactly a celebration. Although that would be an offer. good Fred who would do it. This is about in that realm of self-care. So, you know, I've often heard that, you know, when stress goes up, your self-care should go up too, but that's obviously easier set than done. So how do we find time for self-care in this busy time in general? I mean, a lot of people probably have engagements to get to, you know, there's gift-buying.

There's just a lot of stress around this time of year. Sometimes good stress and just going to a lot of functions. But, like, how do we take time for ourselves? You know, one thing about that question, I was thinking about that, about self-care. And I thought that one of the best ways to have self-care is self-assertion, that is to take charge of how you're going to be in the situation when you're at a party or some kind of function with their problems. And to feel that you can do what you need to do for yourself. You don't have to listen to something that's really offensive. You shouldn't say, well, that was you.

But there are ways to deflect it, ways to get out of it in the moment. And I think that really takes down our stress level a lot if we know that we're going to know how to function. We're going to know how to take care of ourselves by saying, you know, if somebody offends you, saying, please, let's not talk about that. Or I have a very different point of view, but this isn't the time or place or something like that. It feels good. Yes. Yeah. And I think in general, you know, when we think about the holidays, people get so wrapped up in ideas about perfection and I have to have the kind of Christmas my mom had or I want to make sure everyone has Hanukkah presents.

I think there's sort of two things to keep in mind. One is celebrate the holidays in a way that's consistent with your values. Not what you think everyone else thinks you should be doing, but what feels right to you and make your choices around that. And while you're doing that, hopefully you can develop some habits that allow you to do the things that are good self-care for you, whether it's good eating, regular sleep, exercise, magical singing, whatever it is that brings you some happiness and joy. And then I think the other thing that's so important, particularly at the holidays, is there's this magic word called no. Yes. You don't have to do everything. You don't have to accept every invitation.

You don't have to volunteer for every event. So you can really take the time to decide what's right for you and what values matter for your world and your life and your family or group of friends or whatever. And that will help to protect the space you have for your own self-care and your own well-being. And it's not selfish to do that. It's very important to realize that when you take care of yourself, this is not doing something or taking something away from somebody else. That self-care in many ways has to come first.

And it's not disrespectful to others. Is this one of those times where we okay to say no to something? Like if you might know that there's a particularly tense gathering coming in the future, is it okay to say no and just say, you know, I can't make it this time. Absolutely. Or leave early or come late or whatever you need to do. Yeah, no one says you have to go to every party you're invited to. Yes, I think we should give permission right now that whatever holidays are coming up,

you don't have to do something that you really dread. This is not a time. There's certain things we have to do that we dread, but going to a holiday party shouldn't be one of them. Right, absolutely. And so obviously this conversation isn't just about the holidays. Of course. Stresses about all these conversations and whatever is coming in the future will be happening after once the holidays are over.

So for both of you, I wanted to know, how do we keep civility alive as we move forward into the new year. Well, I think what we're doing, what we're talking about here, applies to every interaction that we have, not simply a holiday party. The holidays are just a kind of moment of intense concentrated difficulty. But I think, wouldn't you agree that this is how we should conduct ourselves in general? Oh, absolutely. We have to start from the basis of this other person is a valuable,

human being. They deserve my respect. I need to listen to this person in the way that I would expect them to listen to me. And if you can start in that place, you're much more likely to have a civil relationship with somebody. Absolutely. And this is something that you could do for yourself. It's very easy to feel like a victim when you're in a situation where everybody is talking about something you don't want to talk about. But if you have a sense that you can say something or do something, it really feels good. You know, when I was thinking about this show, I remembered a time when I didn't do it. And I was at a gathering. I think it was after a graduation, the same kind of thing. And a number of the members of the family, I wasn't a member of the family,

started fighting about, I don't know, gay rights. I don't remember what it was. And they went on and on and nobody said anything. And everybody else was sitting there frozen. And I felt that because I wasn't the member of the family that I shouldn't say anything. And I thought, and afterwards I thought, why shouldn't I say something? Of course I should have said something. Like, please, this is uncomfortable for everyone here. Have that discussion privately. And I would have felt better.

Yeah, there's lots to learn from some of these situations. Yes. And that's, you know, perhaps, you know, this podcast airing when it does. You know, we've gone through some of the holidays. We still have a few more. And obviously, as life goes on after the holidays. Yeah, there's plenty of other chances to put this into practice. Yeah.

And you may, you know that. there are people you are more likely to have difficult conversations with. And in my world, it's not people about political conversations. There's just some folks in my world who are difficult to be with. And I often remind myself of things like Jeannie has said of how can I sort of gently say, you know, we could have this discussion elsewhere. Or is that how you really want to present things? There's a little child here. Let's think about what they're hearing. Things like that, that sort of gently point out maybe our behavior could be improved. And how can we do that in a way?

And I remind myself of those things prior to going so that I'm primed in case I need to step up. I think that's good advice. Even if the other person doesn't take it, just by taking it yourself. And that's the thing. If you shift the way you deal with these things, it becomes less important to change the other person or get the other person's attention or whatever because you have a certain dignity and civility that you're projecting. And I think that improves the atmosphere in general.

So if we're to summarize this for everyone, as they go into the holiday gatherings and functions, to take care of yourself, don't overdo, don't over extend yourself the holidays, try to find common ground, try to avoid any discussions that could get too heated, but also standing up for yourself too, I think, if that situation does arise.

Any last minute tips you want to share that we just kind of summarize the discussion here? I think that you should go in looking for as much joy as you can find. And it's an unusual situation, even with people who totally disagree with you, that you can't find something. Look for your connections with others. You know, if there's the people you strongly disagree with and you want to figure out what that's about, take it outside of the big gatherings. things. Figure out terms of how you can understand each other better, but look for the connections with the people who are there because that's what you're going to value at the end of your life and the end of the day, the end of the holidays, is I spent time with people who are important to me,

not I spent time trying to referee fights. Right. I think that's excellent advice. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Buffka and Dr. Safer, it's been a pleasure having you. Delighted to be with you. It's been great. If you've been a long-time listener or viewer, please consider giving us a rating in iTunes, or if you have time, please write a review. We'd really appreciate it. We'd also like to hear from you directly, so you if you have any questions or comments, please email me at K-Luna at APA.org.

That's K-L-U-N-A at APA.org. Speaking of Psychology is part of the APA Podcast Network, which includes other great podcasts like APA Journal's Dialogue about the latest psychological research and progress notes about the practice of psychology. You can find our podcasts on iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also visit Speakingof Psychology.org to view more episodes and to find resources on the topics we discuss. I'm your host, Caitlin Luna, for the American Psychological Association.