Speaking of Psychology - Racism, racial discrimination and mental health, with Riana Elyse Anderson, PhD

Episode Date: May 25, 2022

The past two years have taken a heavy toll on the health, mental health and well-being of people of color, who have suffered disproportionately from the COVID-19 pandemic while also facing what some call a second pandemic of racism. Riana Elyse Anderson, PhD, a clinical psychologist and professor at the University of Michigan School of Public Health, discusses why racism is like a virus and what can be done to help people deal with race-based traumatic stress and to protect children against its harmful effects. Links Riana Elyse Anderson, PhD Speaking of Psychology Homepage Sponsor Newport Healthcare Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sponsored by Newport Healthcare, providing results-driven treatment for teens and young adults ages 12 to 28 who are struggling with trauma, depression, anxiety, and other mood, personality, and co-occurring disorders. At Newport Healthcare, tailored treatment plans foster sustainable healing to help young people move from struggling to thriving. Learn more at newporthealthcare.com. Before we begin, you should know that this episode of Speaking of Psychology was recorded before. the racially motivated mass shooting at a supermarket in Buffalo, New York on May 14. The past two years have been a difficult time for most Americans, but they have taken a particularly heavy toll on the health, mental health, and well-being of people of color

who have suffered disproportionately from the COVID-19 pandemic while also facing what some have called a second pandemic of racism. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and the last week of this month will most. marked the second anniversary of the murder of George Floyd by Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin. What effect have these two intertwined situations, the pandemic and structural racism, had on the mental health and well-being of Black Americans and other people of color? More broadly, how has America's long history of racism and racial discrimination led to health inequities?

And in the face of systemic racism and discrimination, what can be done to help people deal with racial stress and trauma and to protect children against their harmful effects. Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, the flagship podcast of the American Psychological Association that examines the links between psychological science and everyday life. I'm Kim Mills. Our guest today is Dr. Rihanna Elise Anderson. Dr. Anderson is a licensed clinical psychologist and an assistant professor in the Department of Health, Behavior, and Health Education at the University of Michigan.

School of Public Health. She studies how racial discrimination affects black children and families, and she develops interventions to reduce racial stress and trauma and improve psychological well-being. Dr. Anderson is the developer and director of the Embrace program, which stands for engaging, managing, and bonding through race. She speaks frequently to the media about racism and mental health and has been interviewed by CNN, the PBS News Hour, and the New York Times, among many other media outlets. Finally, Dr. Anderson was, as she frequently describes herself, born in, raised for and returned to Detroit. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Anderson. Thank you so much, Kim. So you gave a TED talk recently called vaccinating children against the virus of racism.

we've all had a lot of experience learning about viruses these past two years. What does it mean to think of racism as a virus and why is it useful to approach it that way? Kim, you said it perfectly. And so the first minute of the talk for folks who haven't had a chance to watch it, I set up this really what I consider a humanizing moment where I'm, I acknowledge I'm in a school of public health. And yet I didn't know a lot about virology. It just wasn't the area that I was a part of. And yet everyone learned a pretty good deal about vaccinations, viruses, et cetera, in the past two years.

So as I was initially taking my public health hat and learning so much about this virus, I was really struck by what I had actually started considering racism to be even before the pandemic hit. So a talk that I gave the December before the pandemic hit. someone said, it sounds like what you're doing is inoculation around racism and trying to prevent what we know to be in the air to impact these black children. I was like, oh, that's really interesting. So I started writing it and was actually going to give a talk in March 2020 about this very thing.

So lo and behold, in May, as I'm starting to think through how we can make these comparisons, as you just noted in the intro, we have this murder that just creates a ripple throughout the world. And we see how one thing can spread and can impact so many people. And if we think about racism as this virus and one that I used to call them pandemic, but one that I now think of as endemic and understand as endemic because of this, time that's spent learning about viruses. I find it to be really useful. So I know I didn't just answer your question. Kim, I gave you a whole bunch of context, but that's how I started thinking about that comparison. So then how does the virus of racism actually harm the mental health and

well-being of black people in particular and other people of color? Like what are the mental health consequences of racism and discrimination? Yeah. And this is something that is not disputed. There is data beyond question. There are data sets from every type of vantage point that you can look at, every statistical technique that demonstrates, not suggest, not correlates, demonstrates how an increase in racism leads to a number of physical, educational, et cetera. But since we're talking about psychology, the psychological impact is severe. We're talking depression. We're talking anxiety, PTSD, any sort of psychological internalizing problem is something that we can see, but it also extends to externalizing.

And those internalizing and externalizing problems are often those factors that then contribute to the physical, to the academic, to those extraneous variables. So those are the things that we really understand because it's happening to our mind and to our bodies then extends to the rest of the experience of these black children and their families. So speaking of children, much of your research is focused on kids. A lot has to do with giving families tools to talk to their children about race and racism. How and why do these tools and interventions work? I am very corny. So I think about this relationship of the X and the Y. So whether we're teaching it, whether we're talking about statistical analysis, if you can say there's a predictor

and an outcome, then you get the concept of an X to the Y. In the line of work that I think about, as I just talked about, you can draw a very straight and clear line from racism or discrimination to mental health problems. We know it. It's clear. One of the things that I am particularly consumed with or tasked with is this idea of how do we drop kick that relationship. If we know it exists. If we know that there's a problem, how do we intervene? How do we bend it? But again, I'm not satisfied with those types of statistical ways of changing it. I want to eviscerate it. I want to drop kick it. I want to annihilate it. I want it out of here. You know, I don't want it to happen. And if we know that it's really hard to take the X out of the equation, if it exists,

if discrimination or racism already exist, then what are the ways that we can mediate or moderate so that we can change that relationship to the outcome. So again, said in another way, how do we figure out what are the things that shift that relationship, the things that alter or moderate that relationship? And one of the ways that is most common, in particular in black families, is having discussions about it, not pretending that it doesn't exist, making it clear, making it plain,

because that removes the psychological burden from children, that it's their fault, that they've done something to warrant it, that they're the only person that's experiencing this frustration or this treatment. It takes that away. So for children of color in particular, it gives them a context. And it not only serves as a more historical framing of it, but it also gives them the time to practice and to think through what do you want to do about this, to absolve themselves of that psychological stress and burden. So we have been talking a great deal about children of color, but it would be really important for us then to say if becoming aware of it is psychologically important for black children, one of the greatest

debates that we're seeing in the world or in our American world right now is around, would this be psychologically damaging to children in classroom settings, for example? And the research is very clear that for all children, learning about racism, confronting it, talking about it, has psychological benefit and can absolutely reduce the psychological harm that they have not only for themselves, but reduces the behaviors that they might contribute to the psychological harm of others. So that's why our intervention, talking about it, making sure that we're intervening between racism and psychological outcomes is not only beneficial for the child herself, but for subsequent families and systems

outside of her. So how do we get that information in front of the people who at this time, I mean, I know you've heard all the debate about critical race theory and the things that are supposedly being taught in classrooms today, which, you know, isn't even true when we're talking at the elementary and high school level. But how do we get people to understand that it is important that these discussions have to happen in a classroom, not just at home, but you have to learn the history? Absolutely. So, you know, there are a number of people who are fighting. back. It can be at any level. So the teachers themselves who are fighting back, the politicians who know that within the states that they are in, maybe it's not a successful pushback,

but they're fighting and they're pushing. So when we think about ourselves of psychologists in the APA, there are so many things that we can do. There are a number of task forces and committees that I'm on that are looking at what are the policies and procedures that we can put forth that make a difference. So for example, there was a task force on the eliminate. of racism in our professional setting, but it has to start first with that acknowledgement of history. So we had two resolutions. The first was what was the role of psychology in racism? What was our role? What did we do? So we first acknowledged this was our history. This is what we have now contributed to some of our more current practices, right? So we acknowledge that first.

And now our committee is transitioning to what is it that we can do to rectify in the short term? And what are some of the longer term things that we have to do? So that historical dive as an organization can be done. Right? So in education, we can absolutely push to do the same thing that we just did with APA. I'm also a member of the Children, Youth, and Families Committee. And we're taking a look at what are the resources that we can compile from different organizations that we all have relationships with so that we can start sending

it to educators or to local, more national levels and say, this is what we know. people are doing across the country, we want to have a compendium of resources for you so that if you're thinking about what you can do in your classroom, here are best practices. So there are absolutely things that people are doing. And I think what would be helpful is bringing them to one place so that people who might have questions on what are the things I can use, how can I do it, that we can make it more readily available for them. Well, I mentioned in the introduction that you've developed this intervention called the Embrace program, which puts a lot of tools like this into practice. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about that? So there's been a great deal of

research on this concept called racial socialization. And you may have heard of it colloquially as the talk. There have been a number of TV shows or commercials that show what it looks like for folks of color and parents and children in particular to have these conversations with each other. It's often in light of really traumatic situations like the murder of George Floyd. When those things happen, you often see families having to turn around. And again, acknowledge maybe there was this thing that I thought wasn't going to happen to you or to your generation. And maybe I thought I could protect you from this thing that I've experienced.

And yet here it is now, plastered across the TV on our smartphone, on the headlines. It's there. We're not going to miss it. And kids are incredibly observant, right? So even if you don't tell them about it, they're going to figure it out. And they may often come to you and say, what is this? What is this thing that you haven't shared with me? So when we think about those talks, those conversations that people have again,

especially in light of these really tragic instances that are happening in our communities, these parents and children are having conversations to describe some of the feelings, some of the next steps that they want to have with respect to discrimination at large or discrimination in particular. What Embrace does is take that very rich literature and say, here are the different ways that psychologists or developmentalists in the past have observed families talking about race. And we take that more static or 2D knowledge of how people have talked about it and infuse it with, well, how can we grow something? some of their skills in it. What's the process that we can do to increase their skills?

So we've now developed this approach of competency. How can we increase your skill, increase your confidence, and lower the stress that you have when you're engaging in these talks? Because it's not easy, y'all. If you're trying to talk to kids about race, whether you're a parent, a teacher, a friend to a young person, they're going to have some really good questions. They're going to hit you with some things that are hard as an adult to answer, but if you're loving that child, if you have a relationship to that child, it might be really hard to explain why someone called them a challenging word or made fun of their hair or their clothes, it could be really tough, not only because it's about that child,

but because it's speaking to a part of you, right? So your own identity is wrapped up in this as well. So we try to just unpack a number of these things that might be happening in the conversation with parents and with children. And we do it important. importantly separately at first. So a lot of the adults that we work with haven't had the opportunity to unpack some of the things that have impacted them for decades. And they're telling us stories about what happened to them as children, things that they wish their parents would have said, things that happened when they were growing up, that they've kept with them that are surely going to impact the way that they talk to their children. But because no one's asked them about

them just as an adult, as a human. It's always with respect to being a parent. This is the first time that they could unpack. So we give adults the opportunity first just to unpack. We have kiddos unpack. And then we bring the family together and say, okay, from a family-based perspective, what are the ways that we can have these conversations more effectively with greater confidence? How can we practice? And then we give them tools to take home to practice. And I'll I'll acknowledge this is my favorite part about it. I called it homework. And a youth participant came back and said, oh, no, no, no, that was fun.

That's fun work. Like, we like to do that. So that's called homework. That is not homework. So it is now fun work that they can take home to build those skills. So what about white families? I mean, white parents don't necessarily have these kinds of conversations with their kids. What advice do you give to white parents who want to raise anti-referms?

racist children about how to talk to their kids? Step one is to talk. So I know that sounds really crass and I don't mean it to be, but the research is very clear with respect to how frequently white families are having conversations about race and that number is low. So very few families are talking about race. And sometimes what you'll see when you're conducting this research is that the mention of race, say a child says something about another person, for example, their hair looks like a cottonball, right? The parent will shush that child or say, we don't say things like that. And that for them counts as talking about race.

They may see that as having a conversation about race, that they acknowledged it. When really what we're doing is demonstrating to that child that that's not something we can broach. That's not a topic that we can talk about. It's not spoken about here. which will discourage that child from bringing that back up. So anything that they experience for themselves, anything that's happening in school,

anything they're seeing on the TV, we are now saying it's not important, it's not relevant, and it's not something that I value in talking to you. If we actually want a racism-free country or racism-free society, these conversations with white children in white families are actually the most important.

So I think that my job as a black psychologist, working with black families is crucial because I know that black families are being harmed every day. But as I told you earlier, Tim, if we're talking about the X to the Y, my ultimate goal is to obliterate the X. I don't want racism to exist. Then I don't have to intervene. I don't have to work so hard to drop kick. There's nothing to drop kick. Nothing will be there. That means that we have to talk to white children who are often the perpetrators of racism to say the things that you saw today are unacceptable. We just had another murder in Grand Rapids in Michigan. We are grabbing our guns as police officers when we see black people more quickly. We are suspending children more rapidly.

We are clutching our purse more aggressively. We are doing a number of things when we see our black neighbors, our friends, our community members. And that is something that we should not do. And asking the child, what are some of the things that you think we can do to be better neighbors, to be better friends, bringing them into that conversation, soliciting their advice to get a sense of how can we be the generation that actually changes this trajectory in our world? That's something that we ask children from all backgrounds. It doesn't have to be, again, just black or white. But for all children, how can we be that generation to make the change? How can you be a better friend, neighbor, classmate? Those are really simple questions that we can ask to get this dialogue started.

Sponsored by Newport Healthcare, dedicated to providing sustainable healing for young people struggling with psychological and behavioral issues, including depression, anxiety, trauma, PTSD, and substance abuse. Newport serves teens and young adults ages 12 to 28 at residential and outpatient programs nationwide, successfully addressing teen and young adult mental health conditions through tailored treatment, family support, and care that prioritizes cultural competence and cultural humility. Learn more at Newport Healthcare.com. So we recently ran an episode about stigma and mental health and the problem of stigma preventing

people from accessing mental health services that they need. Do you see this stigma as a continuing major problem in communities of college, or do you think that attitudes toward mental health and mental health care are changing? They're changing really rapidly. I don't have the data to confirm that in this moment. But from everything that we're seeing on social media, for example, in particular, youth-led spaces like TikTok, there's so much emphasis on self-care, on seeking mental health treatment.

And I'll couple that with embrace. one of the most challenging elements of embrace was the session length. So we have five sessions. They're about two hours each. Then we do pre and post test. So we're asking about 14 hours of people. And we were told by reviewers. We're told by funders.

That's too much time. People are not going to want to spend that much time with you in therapy. The most consistent request from families when we end is why don't we have more sessions? why don't we have more time? And those two things combined for me, Kim, because what we're offering is culturally relevant and culturally appropriate and culturally attuned therapy. And the dialogue that we're engaging in

is relevant for the problems for the people that we're serving. And so if we're thinking about a reduction in stigma, we can't just offer the same products and expect stigma to just reduce. So I think it takes a both-and approach, I think the current generation is more mindful that therapy is a fantastic product, but the product does have to actually meet their needs. So we're trying to do both at this time. So research continues to show this reluctance among some black people to seek care for mental health professionals because there's a sense among some black people that we take care of ourselves, right?

Or that they feel more comfortable maybe talking to their pastor or another religious figure. what do you say to black people to encourage them to get care from a licensed mental health provider who might have a very different skill set from your pastor? Yeah, it's a great question, Kim. And I'll reflect back to a talk that I was able to give at my grandparents' former church. So my grandparents are no longer with us. But I got a request from them, the church. And I went to this very traditional black church in Detroit and remembered,

growing up there and seeing all of these churchgoers, these parishioners who I could recall some of the messages that are consistent with what you're saying coming out of the church. And here I am being asked to talk about reduction of stigma in May for Mental Health Awareness Month. And I share with them analogies, and that's the way that I teach generally when I'm talking to people, whether it be in media in the classroom or 90-year-old grandmothers in the church, right? I use analogies and I start talking about mechanics. And if you've been to Detroit and you've experienced some of our potholes and you know your car hits those potholes, you're going to need to see a mechanic pretty soon.

And you know why? I certainly don't have the skill set of a mechanic. If I opened up the hood, if I popped the hood and I went in there with my blunt tools and my nascent understanding, there's going to be a problem. If I tried to fix the axle, it'll probably fall off the next time I drive the car. So me trying to use my own skills or asking someone who is a dentist to take a look at my car. These are not skills that we're keen on, that we are able to utilize to fix this car. So when we're thinking about what a pastor does, a pastor does very great work in our churches,

and our spaces, and it goes beyond pastoral care, right? This goes to mentorship as well. This goes to a number of in-house things that people might try to do. So the people we rely on to get our needs met can do them in ways that we are grateful for and have appreciation for. And people who have unique skill sets and are licensed in particular to utilize those skillsets have to abide by a set of laws, have to abide by a set of ethos and values that are going to be better for your care in this area.

in the long run. So I certainly don't say that pastors aren't important. They play a crucial role. And it's important for us to have them play their role as doctors are also supposed to play our role in the health and well-being of folk. So again, just to drive that point for the mechanics, I say you don't want to have the wrong person looking at your car. You don't want to have someone who doesn't have the appropriate skills that's looking at your mind, looking at your heart, looking at your body. And what I often get pushed back on more than anything is that while going to a primary care physician is okay, going to a mental health professional is not. And so I extended a bit again to say, we're simply popping the hood, right? So everything else might be about fixing other

elements of you. But when we're talking about mental health, we're popping the hood. We're getting a sense of what's going on in your brain, what's going on in your mind, what can we do to help out a bit more with the way that you're thinking. So I try to use strategies like analogies to talk to folks. Sometimes it works, and hopefully with the grandmas and the church that I was at, it works too. And it's like a specialist. I mean, if you had heart disease, you'd go to a cardiologist.

If you have a mental health condition, you see somebody who treats mental health. You do can, but the one thing that I'll say that I've missed this last time is the reason why people keep it in-house. So I think it's really important to acknowledge that in the past, if you said I have something that I'm concerned about, that I'm worried about, that's angering me. There could be consequences in your job, for example. So if you're trying to tell someone,

they might look at you as incompetent or why did we hire this person, particularly, again, from a lens of, if you think about historical consequences, is if one was enslaved and said, I'm not feeling well. We learned very early on that you could not complain. There was no time to rest. There was no time to take time for yourself. So imagine the luxury then of the descendants of these ancestors in common parlance to be able to sit for an hour and talk about your feelings.

That's not something that historically has always been afforded to black people. So I think it's really important to acknowledge the historical, impact and what that has done. And I think it's a this and. And we do have services and opportunity now to do this. And it is not a luxury. It is something that we hope becomes a right, a privilege, something that you take up, something that you want and desire and we'll be happy to provide it. So one of the challenges that we face in psychology is having a development. diverse workforce. I mean, having appropriate providers available. APA's most recent data found that the psychology workforce is becoming more diverse, but that 83% of psychologists are white compared

with only about 60% of the population as a whole. How important is it to have a diverse mental health workforce? It's incredibly important, Kim. And it's not because the data on matching, for example, says that we have to have. black therapists with black clients. So for those that may not be available or excuse me, informed on what matching is. Matching is just you have the same race therapist or it could go to other identities, right? But in this case, if we're talking race, there's not a great deal of data demonstrating that you have to have race consistent matching for your therapeutic outcomes to be high, right? So I'm not suggesting that there has to be a match. But what I am suggesting is that

throughout the training of these therapists, if you don't have diverse thought in the classroom, diversity in practice, if you don't have a number of ways to think about how we might be able to treat clients in a clinic, then we're missing out on opportunities of addressing challenges in different ways, right? So I certainly think the training atmosphere, generally speaking, would be beneficial or would be benefited by having folk of diverse backgrounds. I can certainly think about it from the perspective of client seeing me and saying out loud, wow, her hair curls like mine or like, wow, she looks like me. Like hearing that is really important for things that we may not be measuring.

So how long are people staying in therapy? How many referrals do we get because of that? So those are some of the things we may not be picking up on that are beneficial as well. We get a lot of snowball referrals from people within the same community once they see who's at the practice, right? So I think that that's incredibly important too. And I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge some of the barriers that present itself to going into the professional space. So I know I always said I wanted to be a psychologist and I was very young, but I didn't really know how to become one. I didn't know anyone in Detroit who practiced. That just wasn't something we talked.

talked about or did, right? So I just, I don't know why I put my finger on it, but I was like, I want to be a psychologist. When you're talking about how much grad school may cost for some people, how much internship applications might cost, when you really sit down in total what people might be spending to get to the other side of this versus someone who may be in a more precarious financial situation that needs to get a job quickly, even if it's, $45, $50,000 for their family, that might mean the world, right? And so taking that money back and saying, this is my contribution versus I'm going to go into debt to get this lucrative career later on down the road.

So it's things like that where the APA, for example, needs to be mindful of how do we start investing in people very early on? How can we create opportunities for folks who may be financially disadvantaged to come to our profession. So we were talking a moment ago about two years since the killing of George Floyd, and even as we're speaking now, there are headlines about another black man being killed by police, Patrick Loyoya in Grand Rapids. Maybe this is an unfair question, and it's a little bit seat of the pants more than research-based, but do you feel like we're making any progress in the last few years in addressing racism and discrimination and trauma as a society.

Oh, Kim, you are putting me in the hot seat here. So I have not as optimistic as some people might be with respect to our direction. And it's simply because from a sociological view, we're watching the pendulum swing back and forth when we think about progress. And we can start in more recent times with perhaps the election of Barack Obama, where there was so much hope and optimism coming from that and the immediate backlash of the subsequent administration. From there, there may have been a pendulum swing again with respect to 2020, and now we're watching CRT and that pendulum swing back, the anti-CRT initiative. So we're watching what happens when we try to make progress.

And that swift, not reversal, I don't think that's fair either, but a swift softening or quieting or removal of that progress in certain spaces. But the optimist in me always does say this, Kim, that what we might consider insanity and that that term that or the logic around insanity that you have to do the same thing twice expecting different results, right? that common adage. One of the things that occurred to me in 2020 was that while systems might think that individuals are insane for resisting it, for going out into the streets, for marching, for protesting, for demanding justice, it is actually the systems that are insane for thinking

that we will be quieted, for thinking that we won't be the ones demanding justice. So that is where I do think the power of the people is still very present and showing even if there is a pendulum swing, even if there is resistance, even if we're not making the type of progress or the pace of progress that many of us hoped we would see after 2020, what we did witness was that no amount of suppression would keep us down. We're watching right now some elections where four years ago, there was an attempt to suppress some of the abilities of folks in Georgia to vote a certain way or to have rights. And we're seeing what happens when that pendulum swings back for people to stand up and say, you thought it was going to, the pendulum would stick in one direction,

but we're actually bringing it back to come our way. So in essence, I was hoping that we would see more progress, that magically racism would be over, that my job would be complete and I could go to a beach and relax a little bit. But we are certainly seeing that people are not satisfied with anti-CRT policies or blatant racism, blatant white nationalism. We're seeing that people are not satisfied with that and are resisting and pushing back. So getting back to your work then as a psychologist, what is next on the horizon for you? What do you think are the big questions in your area that still need to be answered. Well, I thought I was clear when I said the beach, but let me try to give you something else

if that's not satisfactory. Yeah, so I think that embrace, we were one week away from launching in Detroit, launching a larger study in Detroit when the pandemic hit. So it's been a really challenging two years trying to get the data that we need to extend the work, but that will be next, trying to get larger. samples so that if we're showing the proof of concept that we imagine we're showing from the pilot, that we'll be able to put this intervention to scale, that we'll be able to bring it to scale and get it some more hands, more people, more houses, and the U.S.

So in alignment with that, we're trying to think about what are the things that we know would be beneficial right now and how do we collaborate with the APA to create some resources for adolescents online? How do we create training for practitioners online and make that into a resource? So we're trying to take elements from this much bigger intervention and say, we know that this is effective. How do we get bits and pieces of it out into the world? So that's the big work that I'm doing over the next year or two.

And then the subsequent work is how do we learn better about what this discrimination experience is doing to children through things like VR experiences? So we've developed already a classroom experience along with the MIT former doc student. She developed this narrative around a teacher in a classroom setting discriminating against a child. And now we're developing with Detroit public school students that narrative for policing and what impact that has on our black children. When they put on this VR headset, we're getting this gestural experience. So what are they gesturing? what's their heart rate doing? What are they looking at? What are they feeling beyond just pin and paper?

I'm nervous, right? I'm anxious. So we're getting so many different metrics and ways of thinking about discriminatory experiences. And that's the next thing after that. Yeah, that sounds exciting. And for people who can't participate right now in the program that you have, where might they go to get some resources that can help parents, especially when they have to have the talk? Yeah, so definitely wanting to highlight what the American Psychological Association's Resilience Initiative, that's racial and ethnic socialization. That's what the RES stands for. So if you type in Resilience Initiative, APA, you'll be able to find a number of age appropriate, worksheets, books, videos, et cetera. So definitely a shout out to APA for that. There are a number

of other organizations that have it as well, including my partners Embrace Race, Sesame Street, PBS. Yes, there are so many spaces that have these. So please don't think that these resources aren't compiled in some way. All of these wonderful organizations have just indicated have things ready to go by age and even by again your relationship to the child. So maybe parent, maybe teacher, but it's there. Okay. And we can put links to some of these in the program notes when we get this posted on the website.

And thank you for promoting APA and doing my job for me today. You're welcome. So it's great talking to you, Dr. Anderson. and I really appreciate the work that you're doing. Thank you so much. Likewise, and have a wonderful rest of your death. You can find previous episodes of Speaking of Psychology on our website at www. www.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

And if you listen to us on Apple, please leave a review. If you have comments or ideas for future podcasts, you can email us at speaking of psychology at APA.org. Speaking of psychology is produced by Lee Weinerman. Our sound editor is Chris Condayan. Thank you for listening. For the American Psychological Association, I'm Kim Mills.