Speaking of Psychology - The science of relationships, with Gary Lewandowski, PhD

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

For psychologists, romance, attraction and love are not just the stuff of poetry – they’re also a subject for research. What are the qualities of a successful relationship? Why do some relationships endure while others fail? What do we gain from our relationships? How do we know which ones are worth holding onto or when it’s time to quit? Gary Lewandowski, PhD, a professor of psychology at Monmouth University, delves into these questions and discusses how understanding the science of relationships can help us strengthen our own. Are you enjoying Speaking of Psychology? We’d love to know what you think of the podcast, what you would change about it, and what you’d like to hear more of. Please take our listener survey at www.apa.org/podcastsurvey. Links Gary Lewandowski, PhD Break-Ups Don’t Have to Leave You Broken, Gary Lewandowski at TEDxNavesink Stronger Than You Think (Book) Music love technohouse & peace by frankum via Freesound.org Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's that time of year when drugstore candy aisles fill with red hearts, the price of a dozen roses seems to skyrocket, and people's thoughts turn to the state of their romantic relationship or their lack of one. For psychologists, romance, attraction, and love are not merely the stuff of poetry. They're subjects for scientific study. What are the qualities of a successful relationship? Why do some relationships last and others fail? What do we gain from our relationships and how do we know which ones are we? worth holding on to. These are some of the questions that relationship scientists delve into, and their research can help the rest of us

as we navigate this area that is so central to our lives. Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, the flagship podcast of the American Psychological Association that examines the links between psychological science and everyday life. I'm Kim Mills. Our guest today is Dr. Gary Lewandowski, a professor of psychology at Monmouth University,

whose research focuses on romantic relationships, self, and identity. He's published more than 50 academic articles and three books on research methods and the science of relationships, including his most recent book, Stronger Than You Think, The Ten Blind Spots That Undermine Your Relationship and How to See Past Them. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Lewandowski. Thank you so much for having me. Let's start with a timely question. By now, many of us have been hunkered down with our partners for almost a year due to the COVID-O-Nodowski.

COVID-19 pandemic. When the pandemic first started, there were a lot of news stories, some joking, some not, about how all of this COVID stress combined with enforced togetherness was going to lead to a spike in the divorce rate or the birth rate. You've actually done some research on how people's relationships are faring during the pandemic. What did you find? Well, it turns out, a lot of those predictions were just wrong. You know, we had a lot of cynical and negative outlooks about relationships and how, you know, the pandemic was going to affect them. But as it turns out, you know, relationships are a lot stronger than we think and relationships have done a lot better than we thought. And in particular, you know, along with colleagues at the Momuth University

polling center, we did a poll early on in the pandemic in May. And when we ask people, you know, how do you think the pandemic is going to affect your relationship? There's a lot of optimism. 51% said that they thought the pandemic was going to make their relationship stronger. And that's completely counterintuitive to what a lot of people thought at the time. Only 1% thought it was going to have gotten worse. 1%? 1%, right? So it's like, one out of 100 thought, you know, this is going to be bad for us.

And 46% thought it was going to be unchanged. And, you know, unchanged is sort of an unexciting thing a lot of times. But in the context of, you know, a global pandemic and all, of the other worldly stress that our relationships have had to endure the past year, no change is a pretty good thing. For those people who do feel like their relationships are suffering right now because of stress due to the pandemic, do you have any research-based advice to guide them? For people that are suffering, I think it's trying to rely on your partner as much as you

possibly can. I think it's, you know, one of the reasons why relationships have done well is that for many of us, our romantic partner is our best friend. And by having to stay inside for a pandemic, you're basically being forced to spend more quality time with someone who's your best friend, which isn't so bad. And so I think a lot of, you know, people are having some trouble with their relationship. It's more of a matter of, you know, changing your perspective a little bit. You know, there's a famous quote that says a shift in perspective is worth 80 IQ points. And so, you know, shifting your perspective and really just trying to focus in on all the good that is there that perhaps you're a.

we're looking might go a long way to help people, you know, do better during during these troubling times. More generally, what have you and other researchers found are the most important qualities or ingredients that make relationships work? Some research done by Rhonda Balzorini and many colleagues, cleverly titled Love in the time of COVID, found that, you know, COVID has been very stressful for lots of people. But what they found was when one of the partners was very responsive. And so a responsive partner is someone who listens to you.

cares what you think and tries to see things from your perspective. It really helped mitigate a lot of the stress that COVID has brought on. So being one of those partners who really takes the time to understand, validate and care for each other is really going to help your relationship weather the storm. You did an interesting poll a few years ago where you asked people whether their partner was their best friend, and you found that 83% said yes, a far higher number than in a similar survey 25 years earlier. Why do you think that's changed? I think we're getting better at relationships. I think we're expecting more, and rightfully so.

Our relationships are one of the most important parts of our life. It's the source of lots of the good times, lots of the bad times. And so compared to 20 years ago, certainly 50 years ago, our expectations are just much higher. And I think by and large, that's a good thing. You know, we not only are looking for someone to help pay the bills and run the household and make just so our day-to-day experience work. I mean, those were more partnerships. Now we're really looking to our partners to help us become better people, give us a more fulfilling and meaningful experience. And, you know, I think largely people are able to find that.

You know, we're waiting longer to get married. So, you know, in some ways, we're making a lot better choices. And, you know, the divorce rate has gone down. So, you know, it's, we're getting better at this, which is really nice to see. I'm going to speculate here because I think there's no data, but I'm wondering if you think the women's movement has had any effect on this because relationships are becoming more egalitarian? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think the best relationships are the ones that are, like you said, egalitarian,

where partners share power and they're equals. And both partners get to be their own person and help each other become better people. And so, you know, when you have an automatic imbalance of power from the start, you know, particularly along male and female gender roles and stereotypes, it's just going to bake in this automatic incongruity and inequity between couples that is just not going to lead to the equality that we know relationships need.

Are there universal warning signs that a relationship is doomed? And if so, what are they? I wish there were, right? I mean, it would make everyone's life so much easier if there were. Yeah, ding, ding, ding, there it is. Yeah, like, there it is. There's the big red flag I need to avoid.

You know, it turns out relationships are complicated. You know, it's between two different individuals. I mean, this is not, you know, not saying anything that people don't know. But we're just not very good at reading signs and knowing what the right signs are to read. And so, you know, if there was any one big sign, I'm not sure we'd even pick up on it, even if we knew about it. you know, relationships are filled with a bunch of doubt. It's just we have limited relationship experience.

And the relationship experience we have is not the same as expertise. And so as much as we've had a few relationships here and there, there's so many more relationships out there for us to learn from. And that's where science comes in. And that's really what I'm trying to do with the book is, you know, there's 350 studies or more in this book. And science has the benefit of relying on a lot more people. One thing you write about in your book is that we're a lot less insightful about our own

relationships than we think we are. You describe a study where college students were less accurate at predicting how long their current relationships would last than their parents or roommates were. Why is that? Is love truly blind? Yeah, it's also a little deaf, a little dumb. Yeah, I mean, that study shows, you know, you ask people, to look off into the future and what's your relationship going to be like.

And if you're asking the person who's in the relationship, they're really confident about that answer. It's your relationship. Who knows you and your partner better than you? But what that study shows us is that as much as the person in the relationship is the most confident, they're also the least accurate. You really can't ask for a worse combination than being super confident about really inaccurate information.

And really what happens is your parents, You know, it's parents, but it's really mostly moms and your roommate have some other information that you don't necessarily in the sense that they're not in love with your partner. And so when you're in love, you're making decisions for more emotional side. Your roommate knows what you've told them, but also sees some of the fallout perhaps of a bad experience you had with a partner, a fight, or, you know, perhaps crying in your room. those kinds of things. They have that inside information. And so both, particularly your mom and your roommate to a large extent, just want what's best for you. They don't really care about your partner's feelings. And so a lot of times in relationships, we get really wrapped up and convinced that we're doing a lot of things that aren't good for us for our partner. And that's ultimately going to be

for the good of the relationship, which is actually another, you know, one of the blind spots I talk about in the book. That experiment was with college students. What happens as we get older? Do we get better at this as we gain more wisdom and relationship experience? We do to a large degree. You know, we get a clear sense of who we are. And so when we have a clear sense of who we are, it gives us a better chance to know what we want. And when you're clear about who you are, you can find partners who see you as you see yourself. And that's important because we don't want to form relationships with partners who are only willing to love us if we're willing to just change a little bit. And similarly, we don't want to have to do that to other people as well.

And so, you know, as we mature and, you know, focus also in terms of our relationships, more on the friend relationship that we have with our partner rather than the purely physical, arousal, you know, that immediate passionate love types of feelings. You know, we get a little wiser as we age and realize that, you know, being friends is really important. In fact, one of the studies I talk about is a study with what they called expert couples. These are couples who are happily married for over 15 years. And they said, you know, what's the secret? You know, how did you do it? And the number one answer was, my partner is my best friend. The number two answer was, I like them as a person. And so, you know, it's certainly passionate love will get us married, but it's the companion at love

that keeps us married and keeps us happy. So what are some of the blind spots that you talk about in your book? So there's the amount of how much sex you're having and focusing too much on the number of times you're having sex per week, trying to aim for perfection, that, you know, setting your standards where, you know, you're looking for the perfect romantic partner. The idea that men and women in heterosexual relationships are completely different. The idea that, you know, we need to be as close as we possibly can to have a happy relationship, that, you know, closeness is, again, you know, should be taken to the extreme in some ways. One of the myths is that, you know, it's not okay to be a little selfish in your relationship.

And in fact, that being a little selfish is a good thing. You know, I mentioned the idea about sacrifice, you know, that we should make all kinds of sacrifices for our partner, things like we shouldn't argue. Things like, you know, my partner must support me in every way at all times. Those are some of the main ones. How do you know when you've over-sacrifice, when you've given up too much of yourself? Yeah, I mean, one of the things I say in the book is that, you know, sacrifices ideally should be mutual and minimal. And so, you know, if you're sacrificing a lot, that's fine, but just make sure your partner is too. And so, you know, you should be maintaining a sense of equity there.

They also should be minimal. You shouldn't have to forsake major aspects of yourself and your interests and things that you enjoy for the sake of your relationship. And a lot of times people kind of take on this martyrdom about their relationship where it's like, you know, I'm going to be the one that gives up all of this stuff because they really believe that it's going to help their relationship. And now we know that when you make sacrifices, your commitment does increase, which sounds like a really good thing. And by and large it is, but your commitment increases, but your satisfaction and happiness doesn't. So you're becoming more locked in to a relationship that isn't necessarily making you happier. We also know when you make sacrifices for your partner, it doesn't necessarily increase your partner's commitment. And that seems odd, right?

It's like, you know, I'm making these sacrifices because I want my partner. It's helping me buy into the relationship. It should seem like it should help my partner buy in as well. But the problem that you run into is that partners, they don't notice everything that you're doing. In fact, they miss 50% of it. And so if you're making a bunch of sacrifices and your partner can't be bothered to notice, you're really setting up this toxic mixture that you're just going to, you know,

start hating your relationship partner more and more rather than, you know, all this sacrifice was supposed to help and it turns out that it's hurting. Hmm. So are you supposed to say, so, honey, did you notice that I vacuum today? I mean, how are you supposed to deal with that? Yeah, you know, it's actually, it's really tricky because, you know, it's this needle you have to thread because as much as you want to make sacrifices, you're right. You should, if you feel like you're really giving that much and your partner's really not noticing it all, it's always good to bring it up.

It's always, you know, be willing to engage in those uncomfortable conversations. That's a good thing. But we also know that when it comes to support, the best kind of support you can offer your relationship partner is invisible support, support that they don't notice. And so, you know, if you're vacuuming and they're not noticing, rather than trying to get credit for all the little things that you're doing, chalking up to invisible support and just know that you're doing things for the benefit of the relationship. And in fact, we do know that when people are making sacrifices and they're doing it for that reason, for the benefit of the relationship, they work out much better than if they think it's

out of obligation or some sense of duty. What about conflict? I think we all. all know couples who are always bickering, but they've been together for a long time. And on the other hand, there are couples who almost never fight. So how much conflict is too much in a relationship? And is it possible for there to be too little? Yeah, I'm going to start with that last point. You know, there's definitely such a thing as too little conflict.

I think it's one of those larger blind spots where, you know, I'll hear people say, well, I know I'm in a good relationship because we have never had a fight. And, you know, if you've been together a week, fine. That's great. because early on you can get by without fighting, but if you're two people who share power equally in a relationship, you're going to have your own opinions, it's almost impossible not to experience some conflict. And so too much fighting, perhaps, it depends on how you're fighting

and how you're doing it, I think. But by and large, you know, you mentioned those couples that are bickering all the time. Bickering is a very low intensity kind of conflict. And that's a good sign. Because it means that when little things are coming up, you're willing to engage. And that allows you to address these small things. As I say in the book, keep small problems small and avoid them sort of compounding and growing into these large-scale major all-out wars. Something I call in the book, you know, kitchen thinking that turns into kitchen sinking, right?

Where you throw the entire kitchen sink at your partner because you've kind of built up all these little things trying to let it. I'm going to let it go. I want to let it go, whatever, okay. And then all of a sudden, it's a cap on a toothpaste, right? And they don't put the cap back on and you just lose it. So you definitely want to avoid that. So how do you know when it's really time to go? It's the million dollar question, really?

I mean, it's, you know, people's relationships are filled with a lot of doubt. You know, one of the studies I start off the book with, they asked people, you know, who are considering leaving a relationship, you know, what are you considering when you're thinking about staying and there were 27 things? And they asked, you know, what are you thinking about when you're thinking about going? There's 23 things. And people who are in these relationships had an above average inclination to stay. The same exact people, though, had an above average inclination to leave. And so it just shows like how hard it is to really decide. But, you know, the thing that I advocate more than anything, and then, you know, this is going to sound a little bit

like a cop-out answer is, you know, I say in talks and to my students that, and all the time, better data leads to better decisions. And so, you know, there's not going to be one sign. There's going to be lots of signs. And you want to make sure you're reading those signs properly. And the way to read those signs properly is to be as well informed about the potential signs as possible. And the way to do that is through the relationship signs that's out there. Because relying too much on, you know, some of the anecdotes we've heard or, you know, family wisdom that's been passed down may not be so wise. As we talk about the end of relationships, you've done research on breakups and you have

a popular TED talk called why breakups don't have to leave us broken. What did you find? What do you mean that breakups don't have to leave us broken? So a lot of times, you know, breakups one of those experiences where, you know, we like to think in binary terms, like, you know, things are either good or bad. And, you know, breakup is always generally considered to be bad. And so when I was a grad student, I, you know, you kind of look into your own life and think about how your life is gone and use that as a way to create some research ideas.

And I thought to myself when I was learning about breakup, like, you know what? I've had some breakups. They're actually quite good. Like, you know, they're tough at the time, but very quickly you realize like, wow, that was necessary to get out of that relationship. And so I started looking into it a little bit. Did some research. And, you know, a lot of my research focuses on the self.

and found that, you know, when your relationship, as it should, helps you become a better person, when you lose that relationship, you lose part of yourself. So that's bad. And, you know, so that was the first study I did because, you know, we'd always looked at negative emotions. This was looking at negative impact on the self and definitely found that. But I looked at the flip side of that coin, which was, well, what if your relationship isn't helping you become a better person? What happens then?

And it turned out that, you know, it was addition by subtraction, that because your relationship should be a main source of self-growth. When you're with somebody who doesn't help you grow, simply getting out of that relationship now frees you up to pursue other opportunities for growth. And it's an important thing to realize because so many people mispredict how bad a breakup is going to be and think it's going to be a lot worse than it is,

which leads them to stay in something much longer than they should. And so, you know, what we really want to make sure people do is know that great relationships seldom fail, but the bad ones do as they should. But then when those bad relationships fail, you have an opportunity to go find the great relationship that everybody deserves. You've done a lot of work on something called self-expansion theory. Can you explain more what that is and how it relates to relationships? Absolutely.

Yeah. And so self-expansion is this idea that we all have a fundamental motivation to grow and improve ourselves. And so we can do that through lots of different ways, but one of the primary ways is through our close relationships. And so, you know, we seek out partners who help us have new and interesting and challenging experiences. We learn new perspectives, new skills, pick up new hobbies from our partner, all these things, you know, when we start forming a relationship with somebody, we start taking on their characteristics and experiences as our own. And so we actually literally experience an expansion or a growth of our sense of self and that, you know, our relationship

should provide that for us. Now, some of the research that I've done on the not so sunny side of things is that if our primary relationship isn't able to provide that sense of self-expansion, one of the major consequences is that people are more likely to cheat. Not only the more likely to cheat, cheating just doesn't happen out of nowhere, right? There's sort of a ramping up process. And one of the things they start doing is paying more attention to alternatives. So the idea is self-expansion is such a fundamental motivation, particularly in the context of relationships that if you're not having that need fulfilled with your primary relationship, you're going to seek other relationships that will fulfill that need.

So relationships are as old as humans, going all the way back to Adam and Eve. What is there left for us to look at? Don't we have this all figured out by now? Oh, my gosh. if we had it all figured out, it would mean that relationships are really, really easy, which they're not. It's a good question, you know, it's like sort of where can this go?

And, you know, the simple answer is we can always understand whatever we understand better than we already do. This has been really interesting, Dr. Lewandowski. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. Thank you. Thank you. You can find previous episodes of Speaking of Psychology on our website at speakingof psychology.org or wherever you,

you get your podcasts. If you have comments or ideas for future podcasts, you can email us at speaking of psychology at APA.org. That's speaking of psychology, all one word at APA.org. Speaking of psychology is produced by Lee Weirman. Our sound editor is Chris Condihan. Thank you for listening. For the American Psychological Association, I'm Kim Mills.