Speaking of Psychology - What to Do When You've Been Ghosted with Jennice Vilhauer, PhD

Episode Date: February 12, 2020

Ghosting is a heartbreaking fact in the modern dating world. It’s when a friend or someone you’ve been dating disappears from contact with no explanation. Ghosting can shatter self-esteem and hurt just as much as physical pain. Our guest is psychologist Jennice Vilhauer, PhD, who wrote the popular Psychology Today articles “Why Ghosting Hurts So Much” and “Did the Internet Break Love?” Join us online August 6-8 for APA 2020 Virtual.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to Speaking of Psychology, a bi-weekly podcast from the American Psychological Association that explores the connections between psychological science and everyday life. I'm your host, Caitlin Luna. You've been dating this great person for a while now. The hours you spend together feel like mere minutes. You're constantly texting, sharing photos, sending sappy kiss-face emojis. And then suddenly, he stops answering your text. Your calls go right to her voicemail. and they ignore your DMs. What happened? You've been ghosted. It's a heartbreaking fact in the modern dating world. Sometimes people are left just hanging without any explanation. And for those of you who have been ghosted, not only does it shatter your self-esteem, it can also hurt as much as physical pain. And to those of you out there who've done the ghosting, and I know they're out there, what's up with you? Okay, no shaming here. We're going to get to that soon with our guest today, psychologist Dr. Janice Philhauer.

She's the author of the popular psychology today articles, Why Ghosting Hurt So Much, and Did the Internet Break Love? She's here to help us understand why people do this and what you should do if you've been ghosted. Welcome, Dr. Villhauer. Hi, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Same here. We're happy to have you on the show discussing this very, very important topic.

In your article, Why Ghosting Hurt So Much, you quoted someone who said they consider themselves to be an honest and straightforward person, yet they had ghosted someone. So I'm curious what would cause in a self-described honest individual to ghost? Right. Well, I think that we all engage in a level of sort of self-justification for our behavior. And, you know, we all know why we do what we do in a way that no one else can ever know that because we have all of our thoughts in our head and all of our kind of reasons lined up for why we make certain choices. So most people in their own mind sort of believe that they're doing the thing that is best for them. And oftentimes they're not really thinking about the impact that that has on another person.

So what inspired you to write that article for psychology today? You know, I like to write articles that I think are going to be of value to people that I work with. And I know that within a very short period of time, I think I wrote the article back in 2015. I had three different patients that had all been ghosted by somebody. And it was just really, one, kind of remarkable to see that this was becoming such a common behavior. But two, it was very evident that it was also very, very painful and that people really didn't know how to deal with it. And so I wanted to personally understand it more. But also, I wanted to be able to kind of offer something to people who were going through this really difficult situation.

Can you explain how being ghosted can activate the same pathways in your brain as physical pain? Yes. So pain, physical pain and emotional pain are actually on the same neuro pathway. And so they've done a lot of research that shows that social rejection can cause the same level of pain that sort of an injury to your body would cause. And it's sort of activated in the same region of the brain. And it's sort of activated in the same region of the brain. brain. And so they've done studies that show people can take Tylenol that will actually help alleviate emotional pain. So that's actually something that, you know, someone can do if they're really in a kind of acute state of emotional pain, that that helps a little bit. That's fascinating that there's that connection because you wouldn't think. I mean, I would never think in a million years that Tylenol could help you feel better if you were experiencing some kind of emotional pain. Well, I think it explains why so many times people,

people try to numb themselves when they're feeling emotional pain. You know, they'll drink alcohol or take, you know, other kind of drugs or medications that really try to help, you know, kind of just numb the actual part of the brain that's creating what feels like the emotional distress. You spoke just a few minutes ago about how people ghost because they know in their heads why they're justifying their behaviors. But specifically to romantic relationships, why do you think we see ghosting happening? so often in the dating world? Well, I think it's something that has always occurred throughout time,

but just maybe not on the scale that it's happening now. I think part of that has to do with, you know, a very big cultural shift that has happened in dating, you know, particularly the internet, I think, has been one source of that, that big shift that has been happening. And that doesn't mean I think that the internet is bad or somehow, you know, been a negative thing for love. But I do think that it's like anything, there's good and there's bad. And I think one of the consequences is that people are a bit more indifferent to one another. And I think that it, when you meet somebody online, there's less social accountability because you're oftentimes meeting people that are not in your social circle that don't know other people. And it just becomes much easier to move on from a relationship very

quickly when you don't have anybody else in your social circle that is going to, you know, object to the way that you're treating somebody else. And that's what you think might be different from the past. Like, I mean, kind of imagining, like, you know, the past, if even before cell phones, if you gave your phone number to someone, you went on a few dates and it didn't work out, you could probably screen their calls or something when you had the, you know, voicemail. recorder. So that was probably still happening, I imagine, but as you're saying, with the internet's made people more distant or there's just not those mutual connections that might cause a person to under, you know, societal pressure, at least acknowledged a person and say, you know, I'm not

interested. You know, let's move on with our lives. Sure. Well, I think it's a number of factors. I mean, number one, there's the quantity of people that we now have access to, right? So it's very easy to kind of look at a page of potential dating, you know, mates and sort of see that there's as many, many, many people out there to me. And so it makes the ideal seem more possible and the pursuit of that kind of ideal relationship. And I think people have in a lot of ways developed what's called the consumerism mindset around dating where it's kind of, you sort of believe you can shop for somebody. You can just find the next person if the current relationship doesn't seem to kind of meet your ideal set of standards. And I think that people start to lose their own

accountability for why a relationship might not be working. They don't really realize that a relationship might not be working out because of things that they personally are doing. So I think that there's different factors that play out there. Yeah, and that's, you talked a lot about that in your article, did the internet break love, which, by the way, the title is just really spot on and very good. There's obviously some factors that are lost through the apps. Like the number one, there's the abundance of people, you know, the indifference you might see, the lack of mutual connections that connect you with other people longer than just an initial date or something like that. But what else is lost

through internet dating apps? I mean, a lot of people are on them today. I've certainly met a lot of people who have found their significant other through online dating apps. But what is missing today that might have been different in the past? Well, like I said, I don't think that it's all good or all bad. I think that, you know, like you said, I know lots of people who have also met their significant others. So I think there is a lot of, you know, value in the ability to meet people that are outside your social circles and to have, you know, just greater access to potential partners. But I think that what happens is over time, the more sort of choice you have, the more people start to lose their own value in some way. So when you only have, you know, two or three people

to choose from, there's greater value that each one of those people are going to have. But when you've got hundreds of people to choose from, people almost in some ways lose their value because you can always find the next person if, you know, this one particular person isn't sort of satisfying or gratifying all the sort of ideals that you have for a relationship. So there's a level of indifference that I think occurs. You know, when 100 people are emailing you, you can't possibly respond to all of those people. And you just start to develop a level of, I guess, indifference is the best word that I have to really describe that. Yeah. How can you fight back against that indifference? I mean, obviously, you said you're not going to respond to those 100 messages. But are there are there

tips that you might offer someone, you know, who is using online dating and a way, in ways to stay more engaged in the experience and have a better outcome for themselves and, you know, hopefully they meet a mate? Well, I think the problem is broader than just social dating apps. I think, you know, there's been a loss of, I think, sort of overall general empathy for people. And that's one of the things that happens, I think, as a consequence of social media in general that, you know, there's people just feel that they can kind of speak to people any way that they want to, that they can, you know, treat people in a just much more indifferent sort of way. And so, you know, how do you counter that?

I think you have to make a deliberate sort of intention to really want to kind of think about the other person's feelings, to really care about the other person's feelings. And the reality is, you know, of the people who have been. ghosted, 50% of those have actually also ghosted other people. So I think what happens is that once you've experienced it yourself, you also become sort of indifferent to it. And people are just starting to kind of shut down emotionally around sort of how they treat others in a dating environment. And I think you have to really make the deliberate effort to say, I want to be kind and respectful to somebody. And, you know, it doesn't have to require a huge amount of effort. You can

send somebody, even just one sentence that says, you know, hey, it was great to meet you, but I don't think that this is going anywhere or I don't see this, you know, really being a connection, is profoundly helpful to somebody on the other end of the situation because it allows them to understand what was going on, like what happens, right? Because when you ghost somebody, you literally have absolutely no idea what happened to them. They could be lying in a hospital bed for all know, you have no way of knowing how to respond. So I think that intentional effort to think about the other person and to just try to be kind and to just, you know, think about how would you want to be treated in that situation? Yeah, I think that's what is probably the worst part is when you don't

have any explanation and you're just left hanging, you don't know what the situation could be. Did something bad happen to the person? Did they just lose interest? I mean, that hurts if you don't, you're just left hanging without any explanation. You spend a lot of time kind of ruminating on. why that might happen. I mean, you know you can't get into specifics, but your clients were going through this, were they, what kind of feelings were they left with when this happened to them? Yes. So disposable, used, really terrified of having this happen to them again. A lot of times they'll spend hours trying to figure out what it is that they did wrong. And so, you know, it's a very, very painful experience for people to go through. Oftentimes, there's obviously

anger. And, you know, in my mind, that's actually one of the healthier responses to have is to kind of, you know, really understand that it really did not mean anything about, you know, the person who's been ghosted, but is really more of a reflection on the person who did the ghosting. So I think anger is probably a healthier response to the situation. But oftentimes it's just so impossible to understand how somebody could do that to them, that it's just very, very devastating. So how do you move on from that? I mean, what advice do you give to someone to help them move on from those feelings? And also, is there a way to protect yourself against this from happening in the future? You know, I wish I could say that there was. I think, you know, the best way to protect yourself is to, you know, really

be careful about who you're choosing, you know, to spend time with, look for those red flags, kind of early on in terms of, you know, how somebody treats you from, you know, the very initial kind of contact. But the truth is sometimes there just really is no way to know. And, you know, if it happens, you know, my advice is the first few sort of days is to do nothing because the instinct is to kind of want to, you know, find out immediately and to contact the person over and over. And that's really the worst thing to do. When somebody chooses to ghost you, that's a very very deliberate decision that they are making. You know, nobody kind of forgets to call you back when they're dating somebody. It's that they're choosing this behavior. They have made a decision

that they want to end the relationship. And whether you agree with the way that they're choosing to go about that or not, it's better for you to kind of take a step back and to kind of retain your own dignity and to really, you know, reach out to friends and to, you know, talk to people that you know really care about you and support you. But it feels really, really bad to be contacting someone and to continue to just get that silent treatment. It's, you know, the silent treatment is, you know, a very cruel thing to do for a specific reason is because it has such a very negative impact on, you know, the person who's on the receiving end of that. Kind of pivot's another question I had. So if you've been ghosted and you find yourself just obsessing about it and constantly being in touch

to that person and they're not responding, where does that? become problematic. I mean, and problematic, I mean, like, if you're, if you're just overdoing it and, you know, can you be turning to some kind of a stalker or something? I mean, that might be an extreme, but where can that go wrong where you just will not stop bothering someone who is clearly does not want to communicate with you? Sure. I think it's so hard. I mean, I think it's hard to know because you don't know what has happened to them. Like I said before, this person could be lying in a hospital bed somewhere, you know, something tragic could have happened. You you just don't know. So I think you can send one or, I think, one or two texts to, you know,

or try to reach out to the person, you know, maybe in a couple different ways once or twice to see if they're okay. I think, you know, it makes sense to want to check their social media just to see if they're posting or just that they're still alive or okay in some regard. But after that, you know, if you don't get a response after, you know, two sort of attempts to reach them, I think at that point you have to kind of take a step back and, you know, really realize that this person is making a deliberate choice. And by kind of continuing to try to contact them, you're not convincing them that somehow they made the wrong choice. You know, in some ways they themselves, regardless of whether this kind of makes sense, they may feel that you're disrespecting them by continuing to reach out to them, that you're not respecting the choice that they're making. making. And so it's better to really just kind of pull back and kind of, again, reach out to people

who you know, care about you, your friends, your family, therapist, you know, whoever it is that can give you the comfort and support that you need while you're going through that and to help you try to process it in the best way that you can. But continuing to kind of reach the person or demand that they give you some sort of answer is generally not going to be the best thing to do. And is there a particular type of person who tends to ghost others? Do you ever you identified some traits? Well, you know, so many people ghost at this point. There was a study that was done, you know, right around the time that I actually had written the articles. This was a pretty old study at this point. It's about five years old. But it was saying that at almost 50% of people

who are kind of in the dating world have either been ghosted or done ghosting. So, you know, it's, pretty common that this is happening. So I'm not sure there's a particular type of person. I think, you know, a lot of people who, you know, again, consider themselves to be really decent good people have perhaps ghosted somebody at some point. And oftentimes it's just the easier thing to do. You know, I think that it's just something that people do not, when they're just not thinking about how it's going to make somebody else feel. Another particular warning signs at all that you might be ghosted? Is it anything that you might look out for? Well, I think if somebody, you know, has a lot of contact with you and any time there's like a shift in, let's say, the general kind of pattern

of how the contact and the relationship is working, right? So if somebody, you know, always text you first thing in the morning and suddenly you don't hear from them for, you know, a day or two, it obviously could be that there's just something else going on in their life. They're busy. They've got, you know, certain, you know, other priorities that they're taking care of. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to ghost you. But if you start to notice, you know, a change in, you know, a normal kind of pattern of behavior, you know, it doesn't hurt to just kind of check in with the person and just say, hey, you know, kind of curious to see how things are going. You know, I've noticed, you know, it seems like there's been a shift. And so I think you can, you know, ask in that way. I think

you know, a lot of times people who are going to ghost you aren't necessarily going to be really honest and open about their emotions in the first place. So, you know, it's hard to say if they're going to be really willing to tell you how they're really feeling. But, you know, I think that's really the most you can do is to just kind of notice and pay attention to, you know, the patterns in the relationship. But a lot of times there aren't going to be any warning signs. And I think that's one of the hardest parts. Definitely. And turning it more towards, and friendships, do you also see ghosting among friends? Yeah, you know, it's funny because when I wrote my article, I was very, in my mind,

it was very specific to dating because I think there's something about a dating relationship where when that, you know, just different level of emotion that gets involved and really different amount of pain that occurs when the ghosting happens. But, you know, I think, yes, I think it happens definitely in friendships. I think it's a broader, behavior that's about not feeling a level of comfort discussing your emotions with someone and choosing instead to just kind of disappear. And I'll be honest with you, you know, after I wrote my article, I got contacted by almost thousands, I would say literally, literally thousands of people who, you know, some of them were people who had ghosted. Some of them were people who, you know, had been ghosted.

But a lot of the people who had done the ghosting really felt very justified because they felt the other person wasn't going to listen to them or the other person wasn't maybe emotionally going to be able to handle it and they didn't want to have to deal with that. So it's a really, I think, very complicated situation where there's a lot of emotions on both sides in terms of, you know, whether this is considered appropriate or not. And I think you can't just kind of apply a blanket kind of statement across the board about what's okay and what's not. Right. And, you know, I imagine with friendships as well as the question I was talking about is, you know, how do you know the difference between simply drifting away from someone and ghosting? I think with romantic relationships, I could see that being a little different. Like I think that's a little bit more of like a definite point. But with friends, like you said, the relationship type is different. So perhaps with friendships, you might just simply drift away and you might not mean to not respond to the person, but you might just feel like the friendship just isn't working for you anymore.

I don't know what the reason might be. But can you do any thoughts about that? Yeah. Well, I feel like the same kind of rules apply in the sense that if a certain pattern of behavior exists, right, between people. Let's say you are used to speaking to your friend, you know, once a week. And suddenly you don't hear from them for a few weeks. You know, I think reaching out, you know, a couple times. I really think when you reach out more than twice, you're kind of pushing the boundary there, like sometimes, you know, but, you know, two, three times at the most. If the person's not responding to you, I think you have to just take a step back and let them see if they're going to come to, you know, kind of make the effort to respond or, you know, come back towards the relationship or just let them go if they're not willing to, you know? So I don't, I think it's it's the same idea. You can't force somebody to, who doesn't want to be in a relationship with you to continue a relationship with you. And you might not get to know why. And I know that

sounds really painful and difficult, but you have to kind of give, like respect the choices that other people choose to make. Right. And to understand that if someone doesn't want to continue a relationship with you, that's better for you anyway, right? Like, you don't want to, you don't want to pursue relationships with people that aren't interested in maintaining those relationships or don't feel they value the relationship as much as you value the relationship. So sometimes you have to really reframe it and be willing to let the people that come into your life go if that's what they choose to do. So it sounds like it's a little bit more, can be a little more nuanced with friends. Is that what you're saying? Because like it might not be so hard and fast as it might be in a real life.

romantic relationship, but the overall message is the same. It's like if you've reached out, don't overdo it, but take a step back and say, okay, if they don't come to me and then it's time to let this go. But also, I want to talk about ghosting at the workplace because I had that actually happen in a work situation before where, you know, I got ghosted regarding a job. And it was just kind of odd, I thought, you know, I was just like, just no response at all. and I'm, you know, we moved on and, you know, with our lives. But, you know, we hear these stories of people who are working and then they all of a sudden, you know, leave for lunch and never come back. What are your thoughts about ghosting in the workplace?

You mean somebody just quits and never tells anybody that they're kind of, yeah, doesn't show up, you know, obviously nothing to say that they're, you know, they're not injured or sick or anything, but just doesn't show up or leaves in the middle of the day, is doing an interview and, you know, is asked to take them to the next level. on the interview and just never responds? Well, I think that's more common than you may realize, but, you know, particularly when it, so, I mean, there's a lot of different scenarios there. But, you know, when you talk about interviews, I think it's actually very common to never hear back from somebody if they're not interested, you know, in hiring you that there's, people are so overwhelmed with, you know, I mean, obviously it's the polite thing to do. And it's a good company.

They know, you would hope that they would have an HR person. they'd be willing to at least send you a form letter. But oftentimes that's not the case. So you just never hear back if someone's not interested in hiring you. So I think that's actually fairly common. But in different scenarios, I mean, somebody's doing that professionally. It's not a good indication. It's not good for them, obviously, for, you know, for references or that type of thing.

But it's probably just an indication of just really, you know, something happening internally for them on emotion. level that they just don't feel capable of dealing with or being able to confront. So you're just thinking them along two different tracks, like someone who does the workplace might be. Do you think, do you look at them in different ways, or do you think it all comes down to the same behavior? I think at the end of the day, there's a similar thread that runs through in the sense that I think the people have different expectations about perceived obligations. within relationships, whether it's a dating relationship, whether it's a friendship, whether it's an interview work relationship, right? Just, you know, something very professional level.

I think that, you know, oftentimes the person on the side where they're kind of doing the ghosting doesn't perceive they have an obligation to reach out to somebody, whereas the person who feels that they've been ghosted feels that there was an obligation. And, you know, I would like to say that there's some uniform standard for saying what's an appropriate obligation. You know, in my mind, common decency, being kind to other people, you know, it's just common courtesy to let somebody know if you're going to, you know, end somehow a contact. But, you know, I think a big kind of threat there is just a difference in expectations on both sides. And I think sometimes there's a bit of an avoidance factor as well, just a tendency to it's easier to avoid somebody and just ghost them than it is to

kind of have the conversation that might be uncomfortable in some way about choosing to not want to be in a relationship with somebody because that's the other side of it. You know, it's very uncomfortable for a lot of people to have that conversation. And so that's why they choose ghosting instead. Is there where you can rise above those uncomfortable feelings and, you know, let someone know why you are ending the relationship, whether that's professionally, or I mean, whether that's a friendship, whether that's romantic. Yeah, well, I think it comes down to basic empathy, you know, really being able to step outside of yourself and put yourself into the other person's perspective. And just, you know, I always just say, you know, think in terms of, you know, how would you want to be treated

in that situation and just extend that same courtesy to the person. So, you know, I think it's really just that extra effort that it takes to get outside of your own mind and thinking about, you know, your experience and to think about what the other person's experience is like. Is that what you would tell someone who's a chronic ghost or if they kept doing it but they wanted to change? Is that what you would advise them to do? Yes. I mean, if someone's a chronic ghoster and, you know, I think I would really want to help them maybe explore, you know, a little more deeply, kind of why they're choosing that option and why is it so hard for them to, you know, kind of confront their own emotions. You know, what makes it so difficult for them to think about having, you know, a conversation with somebody. So, you know, I certainly would encourage them to want to explore that more in depth. Are there ever instances where it is okay to ghost someone? I believe that there are.

I actually wrote that follow-up article. That's what I'm referencing. I thought you could just dive into it. Yeah. Yeah. And I wrote that article in response to so much of the feedback that I had gotten from, you know, people who had chosen to do ghosting that there are. It does seem, you know, times especially, you know, number one, if you're in an abusive relationship, you know, physical or emotional abuse of any kind, sometimes that is in fact the safest thing to do.

You know, particularly when there's physical abuse involved, leaving a relationship is in fact the most dangerous period of time for somebody who's in a physically abusive relationship. And so the best thing for them to do is to leave and to disappear and to go somewhere where that person has no way of being able to contact you. So that definitely is a scenario when I think ghosting is the best thing to do. I think that if somebody is repeatedly violating your boundaries or doing things that really make you realize that they're not all that interested in sort of how you feel or how

their behavior is making you feel. So for example, you know, if somebody is doing just, you know, really inappropriate things like, let's say, showing up at your job or contacting an X or, you know, just doing things or stealing from you or things. Or things. that make you feel really uncomfortable, then, you know, that, you know, really might be in a situation where you need to ghost them as well. You know, sometimes I think people think it's ghosting. If you've told the person many times that you're not interested and they're just not getting it and they're continuing to kind of sue you anyway, it's not ghosting to then cut off contact. You know, I think that sometimes you just have to do that. There are people out there that really

don't understand and don't take the hint and don't, or not even a hint, even if you tell them directly that you're not interested. They don't listen. You know, they don't, they are just somehow, you know, ignoring your request. Then, then I think that's a time then you might have to cut off contact as well. Yeah, absolutely. It does sound like it's probably for the best in that situation. So also, as we wrap up here, I want to talk about tips you would tell people, you know, as they approach life in the modern dating world, you know, as we've talked, we've discussed this conversation. We know that the internet and online dating and apps has made dating easier, probably, you might say. It's giving people a lot of different options.

You can find people with the same interest. It's opened up a lot of great opportunities for people to meet people special, but it's also opened up some opportunities for some more indifference and some bad behavior to take place. But what is the advice that you give to people about how to approach dating today? Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's just so hard nowadays. it's changed so much. And so number one, I'd say, you know, know your own value, that that's just incredibly important, you know, because I think it's so easy oftentimes if you've been through, you know, any number of these kind of sort of common dating scenarios like being ghosted or

those other ones like called benching or stashing or all these other kind of, you know, different trends that have been out there. But, you know, it's really important to understand that, you know, you have value as a human being and to know that. And if you don't feel that you're being treated in a way where you are being valued, that it's important to be able to make that choice yourself to say, this is not acceptable to me. This behavior is not okay. I'm willing to, you know, walk away from this. So I think knowing your own personal value is just extremely important. I think, you know, being able to trust your instincts, you know, again, I don't know that there's always red flags or warning signs, but I think a lot of times you know in

general if someone's treating you well or not. And if you feel like there's, you know, behaviors that where it feels like, you know, oftentimes we can make excuses when we see the red flags. Almost every person I know who has ended a relationship, if you ask them, you know, were there any red flags in the beginning? They'll say yes, but I chose to ignore them. You know, I didn't listen. I assumed, you know, I thought I was being too picky or too choosy or, you know, different things. And so, you know, just really paying attention to your own emotional responses about, you know, how someone's treating you and whether you think that it's acceptable. And if they're being respectful or not, I think that's extremely important. And then I also think the other thing that's super important

is to really own your own role in a relationship and to really realize, that, you know, you can't just kind of swipe left or right and find that, you know, perfect relationship. That it's really, you know, anytime there are two people, there's a dynamic that's being created. And it's really important to know your own dynamic and what you bring to a relationship and to know your own beliefs, your own values, your own expectations, to know your own love language, to know everything just kind of about yourself in context of, you know, your style and approach to a relationship because it really starts to help you understand how somebody

else is responding to you. And so I think that that's just in a very, very important part of finding a good relationship is to know, you know, just yourself very, very well and to know what you're bringing to the relationship. Absolutely. Thanks for those wonderful tips. I think that would be very helpful for people who've, you know, whether they've experienced ghosty or not, I'm sure if you haven't, you know someone who has or to prep you for the future, knowing all these tips is very helpful as we approach dating, dating friendships, and beyond. Yes, I mean, I think that these tips kind of apply to all relationships, absolutely. Well, thank you again for joining us. It's been a really interesting episode. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Before we go, just a reminder that we want to hear from you. You can email your comments and ideas to speaking of psychology at APA.org. That's speaking of psychology, all one word, dot org. And please consider giving us a rating in iTunes. It really helps. You can find all of our previous episodes of Speaking of Psychology on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also go to our website speakingof psychology.org. I'm Caitlin Luna with the American Psychological Association. Thank you for listening.