Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 103: Rachel Riley

Episode Date: August 14, 2023

Rachel Riley is the co-host and face of maths on Countdown and a self-confessed 'proper maths geek'. I first met Rachel 10 years ago when we were both on Strictly together. When we chatted recently we touched on those rollercoaster competition weeks, and the mild PTSD which Rachel experienced afterwards. However she also said she got some good things out of it, namely a lovely husband and two children.Last month Rachel picked up her MBE for services to Holocaust Education. She also told me about the vitriolic trolling that she suffered during her campaign against antisemitism, which coinicided with the birth of her first daughter.She and her husband, Pasha, are bringing up their two little daughters to speak both English and Russian, with a little Ukranian added into the mix.Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hey, hey, how are you? I'm speaking to you from a quiet house. This is a nice feeling. Listen to how silent it is actually I can't hear

the rain it's been a bit drizzly recently how are you how's everything I am um I'm actually not up to much I'm having a little weekend off it's been very chill and that was exactly what I needed I was very ready for a little break. Back at it again soon though. Got a couple of festivals coming up next weekend. Don't worry, I'll be back to the grind. But for now it's just not doing very much, just playing with the kids and being in the pool and that kind of thing. AKA a holiday. Anyway, no rest for spinning plates. No, no. um this week what a gorgeous guest my friend actually Rachel Riley so Rachel and I met when we were part of the same dancing school also known as Strictly Come Dancing which would you believe was a decade ago bloody hell I can't believe it was 10 years ago I did

that program that's bonkers and yes many fond memories actually I mean look it was a very very unique environment best of times with the glory of the twinkly outfits and doing the dances worst of times with the nerves um and actually some of the emotional intensity of it was a bit much for me however for some people it was life-changing, like Rachel. So when Rachel did the show, I was paired with Brendan Cole, Rachel was paired with Pasha, and actually they fell in love and they are now married and they have two little girls. Absolutely gorgeous.

They're a brilliant couple. I'm super fond of them. Their little girls are gorgeous. And Rachel and I bump into each other fairly frequently, actually, over the years. I think she's brilliant. I've got nothing but respect for her. Plus, I've seen her at her day job when she's doing the numbers on Countdown. And bloody hell, that woman's mind.

It's very impressive to see. Her and Susie Dent just doing what they do on Countdown as flawlessly as they do it, like exercising that muscle.'s super cool um and it was just such a pleasure to sit down with Rachel and chat to her about how she's found motherhood but also her incredible strength actually she was involved in um the actions against anti-semitism in the Labour Party and you know what you have to be pretty brave to put yourself out there because that comes with it with a whole lot of shtick which um i don't know if that's the right word a whole lot of well actually just brazen disgusting criticism trolls people sending

horrific messages just stuff you wouldn't want to invite into your life but if you feel strongly about something that's unjust and unfair and you actually speak up on it and you have principles like that I just have nothing but respect for that I think that's a wonderful way to live and what an inspiring way she'll be raising her kids to call out things that don't feel right I think that's hugely impressive and obviously Rachel's actions have been completely noted and she's now the recipient of an MBE, which she only got recently, I think. So where are we now? August. I think she got her MBE in, I think it was June.

Or it might have been beginning of July. Really recent. So congratulations to her for that. And yeah, it's just an absolute pleasure to sit down and talk and spend some time. I think on the whole whole a lot of my guests on spinning plates are people that I may be meeting for the first time or I don't know that well but Rachel and I are it was just really nice to sit down with someone who's also a friend that is a joy so yes over to Rachel and I will see you on the other side hello Rachel I finally got you on my podcast having spoken to you very like i think maybe

two years ago three years ago i think that's yeah when i first had a baby and was like actually i'm i'm not i'm not having much to do because it's a pandemic and my husband's around and you're like i'm not really spinning very many plates right now yeah now i am now i'm here now i've just come for the free child childcare for an hour you're looking after my little girl so I can talk to you I'm like great

get me on well not me specifically Carolina's been brilliant with her playing we'll see them in the garden sometimes it's really sweet

but yeah it's actually quite nice because she's come over and she's got the whole house to herself because all my boys are out so there's all these toys

so she'll have a ball normally she'd be you know screaming if I'm leaving the room and she's like mum who no she's going to be like can you talk for longer there's cupboards toys, so she'll have a ball. Normally she'd be, you know, screaming if I'm leaving the room, and she's like, Mum, who? No, she's going to be like, can you talk for longer? There's cupboards I haven't been into yet. But yeah, before we press record,

we were both talking about how much we've got going on, and obviously you now have two little girls, and Pasha's been in and around, and you're doing your work. So what is happening in your life at the moment with work? What are you up to? So right now I've got Countdown, an 8-up, 10-catsers Count is countdown so we live in london and we film in salford and i'm still feeding the baby so every other weekish i i schlep up to manchester with the baby um and everyone else stays at home and pasha has been filming um he's choreographing a film in romania

so he's been away for the most of the last month he was home for less than 48 hours over the weekend so we actually saw him and he's gone away again um so it's kind of changed because over the pandemic we were just around a lot I was still you know fortunate enough to still be filming Countdown but he's his work you know in you know theatre and shows it just disappeared which actually you know in retrospect we really appreciate having all that family time together but you know everything that you would expect to be doing as new parents in that juggle, we just kind of didn't have. So now we've got two and now life's back up and running.

I mean, it's always changing, but for now it's like it's been transitioned for us because he's about to go on tour as well with La Bamba. So he's going to be in London and then in Leicester and then here, there and everywhere. And I'm going to be up and down to Manchester. And we've got, you know, one in preschool and one going to be going so it feels now my head is you know looking in seven different directions and trying to work out how they piece

together and trying not to think about it because you know sweat a bit well I think that's actually the way I handle things like that because I mean I suppose out of your two careers passion is quite similar to the way it works for Richard and I in terms of musicians and being away and that kind of working odd hours and travelling around and everything changing quite regularly. I kind of just do like one week as it comes really because if you look ahead it's actually a bit too much and the kids are actually really adaptable and they kind of get on with whatever's in front of them really yeah so I think if you look far ahead it makes your head spin but yeah I just need to sort out some kind

of regular childcare but we don't have a regular you know working life so that's the thing if you knew it was Monday to Friday I'd be able to sort someone out but I just I need to delve into I need to do some research I need to be a grown-up and find some proper childcare at some stage. Yes, and don't worry because I actually, I don't really know very many people. I hardly know my friends do have that regular life. So I can give you some advice. I need it, that's what I'm here for. Well, I was thinking about you and Countdown

because I was lucky enough to come up and do Countdown with you early in the year, which I loved. And you record, so you do like the whole week's episodes in one day yeah and I was exhausted that night I slept so well because I've been trying to do all these words and number games what's your relationship with maths like these days like how do you feel about it as a thing to be doing well I was a bit worried because when I got pregnant you think you know you hear about baby brain and hormones and then sleep deprivation and thankfully the countdown thing is like riding a bike so thankfully that's still there I mean I think even before kids like I had fluctuation I could feel with like hormone fluctuations some days I'm just not there and I think there's nothing you can

really do about that you just ride it and you know get back to it the next day um but yeah I mean I'm with you five shows a day and then I go home and I've got the baby and sometimes she's teething and sometimes you just get a couple of hours and you're back in the studio but you just get on with it um and I think you know the adrenaline keeps you going um and I've got such a great team around me and I'm a proper maths geek that's my favorite thing so you know sometimes I can't put sentences together but thankfully I can still do the numbers game it's so you know sometimes I can't put sentences together but thankfully I can still do the numbers game

it's so flipping impressive though I loved watching you do it it's lovely and I mean you and actually Susie Dent as well she's very impressive

with word knowledge as well amazing she's amazing and she's you know she's actually I love Susie

we're just like really really good mates yeah I can see that she's got two girls as well and hers are a bit older I think Lucy's about 22 now and Thea's about 15 um so seeing her as a

working mum like Thea was you know a little baby coming up with her when I first joined Countdown so it's quite nice to see what's ahead for me and how you can juggle it and how you can manage it and she can still write 15 books and come up to Manchester and all the rest of it is, yeah, it's my future without all those books. And actually, I suppose as well, when you talk about regular jobs, like you've actually been doing it for a really long time, Countdown, it's been a big part of your life. Yeah, over 14 years now.

So I was 22 when I got my job, fresh out of uni, and 37 now, two kids and still enjoying it and still, you know, I think my probably clothing outfits have probably changed. I have the options. You know, it was interesting getting the maternity wardrobe and obviously you go up and then you go down and then you go, I got pregnant again, so you go up and then you go down. And then some of the stuff you just think, was it this short,

you know, a few years ago? Is it just that my body's a bit different? I don't know. But yeah, some of those, some of the things have beened out like as in yeah but that's also just what happens when you look at your wardrobe you're like is this still where I'm at anyway and I've got things I've got things upstairs that I've had since I was in my 20s some even in my teens yeah and it's like I have to sometimes admit like I'm not really going to go back to that look anymore you don't want to throw it out though maybe one day. Exactly and it's funny as well because when you're doing

countdown you've obviously got the contestants and everybody's like getting excited if they get like answer the maths problem or they get a six or seven or eight letter word but actually you and Susie are doing them right like every time I was like saying to Susie like have you ever considered being like playing countdown you're really good at it

We don't get to we'd love to I think we've had you know the odd? You're really good at it. We don't get to. We'd love to. I think we've had the odd round on eight out of ten castles countdown where we get to actually play along. Or a conundrum if the contestants say get the conundrum, we can shove a hand up. I mean, that's my job. I get to play every round, every numbers round. And I love it.

Well, yeah, you said you're a numbers geek. You've always loved it. But do you think that the profile of maths has changed since you started counting or even since you started studying it? Do you feel like it's got a different association with people now? I'm not sure. I think science, I think, you know,

there's a lot of people that have done great things for popular science, you know, with Brian Cox effect, buying loads of telescopes and things like that. I think maths is still something that people don't quite understand what mathematicians do there's I mean I'm a big fan of Hannah Fry she's a mathematician she's um again like working mom and she's just so cool she's actually still working in maths and she goes and she talks about what mathematicians are doing and how they're you know mapping out the best way to leave a fire escape or working out where

burglaries are likely to occur and all these cool things and I think I think science and STEM in general has kind of moved on I think people realize now it's not you know necessarily nerdy and geeky as it was kind of like the terms you'd think of when I was younger but now it's just ubiquitous like it's true you know the world has changed so much since we were young. And just, you know, that if you're going to go into science and technology, engineering, math, STEM, you're going to get a job. And potentially the job that you're going to get

if you're a student doesn't even exist yet. Yes. But you're going to be employable. And I think, you know, the more we can encourage kids, and I like to encourage girls especially, because there's still this gender difference um definitely perceptions and then the numbers going into studying and getting jobs in these things um so the more we can say it's open to everyone um and it's not you know there's no maths brain there's no creative brain it's you know you're just you that that's a myth and if

you like these things you don't have to be einstein you don't have to understand everything you don't have to know every word in the English language to say that you can speak English and it's the same with you know science and maths you can you can find the bit that you like and you can you know delve out a pathway and get an interesting career if you want to I really love that actually and I think well firstly we had Hannah Fry oh I love yes and like you said I was thinking when you were saying that that both of you, yes you've been employed but maybe both of you have found yourself doing things you didn't necessarily think would be the end

end result when you were doing your studying but also I think what you said about saying you don't have a creative brain or a science brain it's just you and the bits you know the bits you're good at sort of thing and the bits you enjoy that's that's valid and that counts I remember going to the science museum excuse me and they had um a big sign and it said something like maths

is not just what you learn in school there's maths everywhere when you pack your suitcase you're that's maths if you're noticing patterns in nature that's maths yeah and I thought I wish they'd said that at school because there's so much of a thing of like you're good at If you're noticing patterns in nature, that's maths. And I thought, I wish they'd said that at school because there's so much of a thing of like, you're good at this, you're not good at that. And it's all the way you're taught, the academics of it determine your relationship with that subject. Yeah, and that's particularly what turns girls off.

I mean, girls and boys as well, but statistically, you know, generalising, girls are more susceptible to outside influences. So if you a girl you're not good at maths especially at a young age um or anyone really they they they implant that and they they start to believe it and they perpetuate it um so it's just important to just have i i support um a brilliant brilliant charity called national numeracy and they're all about growth mindset so it's not i can't do maths it's i can't do maths yet because the biggest indicator as to whether you can improve your maths skills

is if you believe you can. And there's a problem. We do have a problem in the UK with numeracy. I think 50% of adults are at the level you'd expect of an 11-year-old. Again, it's lower for women. And we're passing on negative feelings and fear of it to kids.

And I think we need to just change the way we speak about it, change the attitude and not be fear of it to kids and i think we need to just change the way we speak about it change the attitude and not be scared of it and not um not feel intimidated and just give it a go and even if you're going in and you're trying to help your kids and over the pandemic you know more people were having to do more maths and higher level than they did before because they're helping the kids for obvious reasons um and it's you know you can go back and you can learn it together and if you're asking questions great like it's a learning opportunity um i just think it's really important to just be positive about it in the same way you wouldn't proudly say i can't read or can't you know don't say i can't do maths because it's just

i can't do it yet yeah and also there's lots of different levels and aspects of maths i actually like maths i always enjoyed it at school um i quite like helping kit with his maths homework we'll sit quite he's 14 so he's sort of getting to the gcse level and it's funny things are sort of starting to come back a little bit yeah um also the resources that are out there now for that age group are brilliant in terms of going online and watching people give demos. That feeling I had sometimes where I felt like, this happened across the board, by the way, feeling like I'd missed a really crucial part of the lesson.

Maybe I was away that day and my friends would be like, no, no, you were definitely there. But now you can go online and you can get access to that again and someone will patiently take you through it again. And I think, oh, that's brilliant. Yeah, it's fun. I'm at a different stage than well this is three and a half but she is starting that we the other day we were driving I try and

just make it just get her to spot numbers and spot maths in the world around her so we were driving in the car and she was you know whinging in the back about something ridiculous and I was like Maeve let's see what numbers we can see so every time she saw a road sign she's like 20 or three and naught that makes 30 and at the moment she's at the stage where she's just trying to recognize what numbers are um and she saw we had a little eight-year-old um so nine-year-old girl around and we were playing some countdown games because she likes maths and Maeve for the first time saw adding and taking away and she's like mummy I want to do addicts it's like great so we call it addicts um and she wants to try adding um and it's so nice just to see her enthusiastic about it and if she gets it

wrong it's like no just try again and you know and when she gets it she's so pleased yeah um and it's important not to say no that's wrong and have any negative attitude about it it's like all right have another go yeah um and just get her to spot numbers and maths in the world around her and you know got her a little watch and she's enthusiastic about it and I I just you know for me I love it and when I see you know a something mathematical you know mathematical way of thinking just even if it's like we're playing a matching game and to get the same amount of cards each she'll like just balance it so that they're level that's like a mathematical way of thinking it just makes me it just gives me like your face is really lighting up i mean like if they're

dancing their daddy can watch that and you know and if they're doing if they're leveling two piles of cards oh that's my girl and you have a depression like now you join in you're like i'm stop it no i'm not gonna he actually he's got he likes maths he's like I remember I remember well when we were first paired up um there was some like some and so many people even like a simple sum if they're asking in front of me they get a bit nervous and they're like looking and they're checking you know most basic things and he was like no I like maths what um it's nice that is cool I mean I wouldn't normally when I normally when I speak to people I don't really talk to you much like that half but seeing as I met you and Pasha at the same time yeah it feels a bit different and I realized we actually met like 10 years ago now 10 years

I know yeah I've still got you know what I've got the bottle do you remember they gave us a bottle of champagne that's got Strictly Come Dancing of the Year on it I mean I'm sure it tastes like vinegar I looked in our cupboard and I found that and I was like you know what in September whenever it is I'm gonna I'm gonna open that I'm that and I was like you know what in September whenever it is I'm going to open that I'm going to see what it's like

I think it's as good a time as any isn't it that's very sweet actually I ended up giving mine to Brendan because he was so annoyed that the professional dancers hadn't been given one

oh no I kept mine it longed with me he was really grumpy like we didn't get those so I was like okay fair enough thank you

you can have it but yeah we went to the same dancing school which is how we met um it does feel like we call it yeah that's what I refer to it dancing school kind of the thing that was the only place that taught me anything about like waltz or foxtrot yeah anywhere else so um I mean it's funny I think I have now got to put where when I hear the theme tune, I don't feel quite as like freaked out. But it was an extraordinary process. I mean, do you, I suppose it is such a long time ago now,

but what are your memories of that time? I mean, for me, it's still the most terrifying thing I've ever done in my whole life. Well, I mean, I listened to your audio book. Oh, yes. It is kind of like... I've only mentioned it a couple of times. Well, you know, when I got to the part on Strictly I literally had to speed it up you know listen to you I don't know like three times as fast as I could listen to it so I'd listen to it but it still gets me and like it

is like a you you don't know man you weren't there and it and it is ridiculous because I in the same way that I can see you apologizing because it's not you know real problems it does do something to your psyche that isn't comfortable and it even now like my body's kind of like something's just like flowing through me that isn't comfortable and I hate the theme tune and I have to put brave face on with the girls because I'm like yay daddy's song um but yeah I mean I did get like mild PTSD after it um but yeah i mean i did get like mild ptsd after it um really yeah and i i think my like my the eventual way i decided to i like learned to do it was to ignore it as much as possible because i tried immersive i tried ignoring it i tried everything and the best way was just just let it wash over me because obviously i was with pasha so every year i'd find that i would go through

each week I'd know exactly what week it was and I would have like the memories of my experience on it plus the memories of each year and I would kind of like bring on everything that he was going through each week as well so it was compounding and I just it just oh I don't like I mean I had a great time while I was on it yeah but when I was off it I mean I think only someone that's been on that you know mad roller coaster can quite get it I think that's very true and actually when I've met people who've done it on different years to me there's definitely a sort of common look in your eye I know yes we've been through it which is funny because on the surface of it was so much about it

was really glorious you know really really exquisite and I loved I loved learning something new as an adult yeah a lot and spending whole days just dancing around the place like turns out really suited me I loved all that um but I think there was something about the sharpness of your focus during that time I think that was part of what I found I've never really done that anything like that yeah I totally agree I think um for me at the time you like when you're rehearsing that's the place you want to be in and you haven't got anything else to worry about and you're and you get that instant gratification of like Sunday you can't do anything you've never seen the charter before Saturday you perform and

like you've you're ticking the box of like I've done what I'm supposed to be doing and I think this is it's like a really like a holiday romance version of you know when footballers retire and they've had their whole lives planned and they've been in this team and they've been working towards something and they've been doing all the exercise so they get the endorphins for that and then you know you just stop and then you're you're outside of this group that you've been part of yeah you're back to like doing random stuff but all your friends are still doing it you don't you're not doing the exercise that you were doing every day all day every day so the endorphins just stop so like there's that hormonal yeah thing and it just it just feels weird yeah and i think you know i'm quite uh rational try to be scientific type of person um and i think i just think the

hormones it just it just does something to you that you can't control. And I actually had, Pasha got me a CBT session while I was on it because when I was in the dance-off, I just got stage fright and I came back the next week and I was just not there. And he said, you know, what's happened to you? So he sent me for rapid CBT. And it was one of the most brilliant things I've done in my life because it taught me that I was a perfectionist, which I didn't realise.

I thought being a perfectionist meant you wanted everything to be perfect, but it doesn't. It means that whenever you do something, you pick at the small things that go wrong rather than the CBT taught me to actually set a target before I do anything and then if you achieve that, look at that and be proud rather than look at the things that will always go wrong

and pick yourself apart. And, you know, talking to my girlfriends, we all went to a grammar school, so we're all kind of the same overachievers and we all did the same things and we'd never be proud of ourselves or look at something and have it, you know, just like be like, great, this is what I did and this is what people saw from it

and this is what, you know, this is the level I should have been and I did it. And actually my final week, I think I set myself a target of getting one eight even though I think you know the numbers and the scores is a little bit a little bit pantomime all the rest of it but I got two eights and then I got voted out so if I could go out you know proud and and feel like actually I've achieved what I wanted to achieve rather than I got voted out and everybody hates me I didn't have that feeling yeah um so it's a funny thing but it is a bit of a mind um I don't know what the polite way of saying it is

well they're filling the blank yes I think um that's interesting about the perfectionism and I relate to that a lot because I think you're right the sort of perception is that being a perfectionist means that everything you do turns out perfectly and if it doesn't it's not perfect you're disappointed whereas actually it's to do with a sort of yeah nitpick and a standard in yourself that you've set yourself it might be internal pressure it's impossible yeah maybe something good came out of that side of it if you learned that loads of good things came up I mean I've got my I've got two children and her lovely husband. I think it's that as well. They're all right, you know. But actually, thinking about that,

because I was looking at all the things you've been up to and I was thinking that actually, you know, you were talking about finding the sort of stage fright and nitpicking, but actually, if we fast forward to now, because the timeline of when you were involved in all the campaign against the you know the anti-semitism that was going on in the labour party that what interested me in that was not just how brilliant and brave you were but that was also the timeline when you were also having your first baby yeah but then i was thinking i know you've spoken a lot about the horrible side effects,

the trolling and things like this, but there must have been a lot of stuff about it that's been really good, not least the fact that it's been recognised and, you know, have an MBE and all the good stuff. But I wondered how empowering it is to feel that sort of David and Goliath thing and actually come out the other side of it

with something to show for it. Yeah, well, it was I mean it was it was a huge relief so I mean it was it's it's funny it's one of it's another one of those things that I recently realized whenever I talk about it I have another physical reaction um but I was you know brought up secular Jewish but you know from forever i've known about the holocaust and i knew what it meant to you know stay silent in the face of injustice and i think that was kind of built into me and i just saw something bad happening and i don't know if it's just my personality or whatever i just couldn't stay quiet and it did take a it took a it took a big toll but the the and i remember when i first

started delving into and doing research i thought you know what maybe like they'll get out he'll be out in a few months like but once people realize how bad it is he'll be out and then we can get back to my real life and it wasn't like that at all they just stay like and pasha comes from a communist country you know he when he was brought up he was communist he's like communist they get their claws into things and they get they get the mechanisms of the party and they it's it's deeply unpleasant and i was pregnant and my my first baby was due on the 1st of december the general election was the 12th of december and she was eventually born on the 15th of december and the the stress at that time,

because, you know, you're in a social media bubble and social media is quite left-leaning. And there's all these supporters telling you you're evil and they're going to get in. And genuinely, a lot of people I knew were talking about where they were going to go, like what country they could flee to, because there's this real sense of fear

and what could happen. And a real, and I do believe it was founded. So when, you know, they were widely rejected, you know, ATC lost, you know, it was just utter relief. But on that day, I also got a message wishing my daughter stillborn. So, you know know it took its

toll but also I met some brilliant people you know there's some we kind of I wasn't really in the Jewish community we weren't brought up with Friday night dinners or anything we were kind of like Yom Kippur Jews and we'd like like the menorah and stuff and now I've got invites to Friday night dinners and um you know I'm being awarded an MBE for services to Holocaust education. And I've gone to the Holocaust Survivor Centre and met these amazing, amazing people who've just survived horrors you can't imagine. And they're still smiling and they're still making jokes

and they're still offering up. If Pasha ever moves on, they'll take me out for a dance um so that's been lovely and you know having my children and i growing up not really knowing where we quite fit in knowing that we're jewish but we're not really religious and how does that really work now i know like a broader spectrum of jewish people and i can give my daughters like a jewish identity without them feeling that they don't fit in or whatever um and they can just you know I took them to um to shul for purim which is a holiday that's kind of like everyone dresses up like you would at Halloween um and when we took them to shul and um what's the kids reading where they're reading some stories and saying boo and cheering

and all the rest of it and as soon as we sat down in this quiet room with about 20 kids Maeve says mummy I want some ham and I was like Maeve Maeve in a synagogue asking for ham I was like vegan ham we've got some vegan ham I'll give you some vegan ham just um but just you know it's just just it's just funny I just want them to be comfortable in themselves and in that environment and being able to pick and choose in the same way I can. So yeah, there's loads of positives. That's a really long answer to the question. No, no, it's perfect because I was thinking about that because I know you've spoken a lot about the other sides of it

and I'm so sorry you had to go through people saying such horrible, evil things, which obviously the sole intention of people who send messages like the one you received is to upset you that is they are trying to go directly to the heart of you to that's the thing about social media that I really hate is when you look through and this happens for the good stuff and the bad actually every time you look at a tweet for that one second they they've got you. They're in your ear.

And I think it's a really, it's very important to give it that perspective because even eight people saying something awful sounds like a crowd. Because for that second, they've been there. If I was in front of a crowd and there's some people loving it and a small proportion really bored,

I probably will be able to overlook them and just look at the people having fun but if i'm reading messages i everything comes in at the same level yeah and i can take those voices and i can amplify them you know the the middle ground don't really message so you're only really hearing the amplified extreme ends absolutely um but i you know one of the best people I met through this is a guy called Imran Ahmed and he set up Centre for Countering Digital Hate and he's like a labour proper labour man like he was um a spad for Hilary Benn um and he just does amazing amazing work he's like he's like a scientist so the way he analyzes stuff is like, how can we fight online hate, but not in a way that's,

I think all that kind of stuff has kind of become so partisan, like whether it's woke, whether it's this, whether what side you are, but just at the heart of it, there's social media companies that are making loads of money out of making everybody angry and they're making more money out of,

you know, really vile stuff that would be illegal to say in real life for people but because these tech companies have come through really really quickly with loads of money and the governments haven't caught up with legislation um and of course they've got these like huge a lot in the u.s these these lobbies that are putting pressure on and putting all this money into to making sure they don't get legislated for there's i'm glad that there's people like imran that's out there that's just like speaking the middle ground just saying you know what these like proper extremists some of them you know proper nazis or proper terrorist sympathizers

or you know promoting this kind of stuff this shouldn't be allowed and we need to do something to stop it and we need to hold these social media companies to account um so now i'm kind of like broad a picture trying to support the the broad brush strokes of like let's let's change something like this isn't normal i know it exists already so we kind of got used to it and i know there's people that are kind of hoping to stoke it and say that oh you know every opinion's allowed and you can say whatever you like and actually let's just look at it like how we would in the real life in the real world exactly you know if someone went to your kids notice board at school and put up a nazi a nazi you know meeting um and encouraged all these little children to go and look at it and

yeah it's not normal and just because it's on the internet you know doesn't mean it's not normal. And just because it's on the internet, you know, doesn't mean it's okay. Yeah, I know. And I think that idea of going after accountability is really wise. And actually, I can't really think of any reason why anybody wouldn't subscribe to everything that that organisation is doing. Because surely, you know, if we're talking about,

you know, with your daughters, with my children, the world they're growing up in, a lot of the things we worry about and that kind of wild west aspect to the internet and communication it's it's definitely worth paying attention to where that's headed and all our worries about it could actually be allayed if there's just some more accountability yeah i mean there's always there's a line there's a line with everything you know like what if you stop this free speech then you're gonna stop this was like well you know who's gonna choose someone has to choose and someone has to make a judgment where the line is because there you can't just post everything you can't just say i want to do this violent act to you i want to kill all these certain people like there is a there is a line and we know that the line exists because it sometimes goes into legality and then people get prosecuted and it turns into real life stuff.

And just because it's a difficult topic to work out where that line is and who gets to judge it, you know, that's why there should be weights and measures and to be a broad group of people working on these things. Just because it's a difficult question doesn't mean we can just say everything goes and whatever it's doing to society and you know teenagers and all the effects it's having that's just whatever you know there are so there are social media companies with a lot of money that are trying to promote those ideas to stop themselves being legislated exactly but it's it's it's not the same all through the world you know there's different states in

different countries europe's a bit better than we are potentially um and there's you know the online safety bill um that imran's been doing and you know some people are trying to pitch it as like woke lefty so i'm the type of person people some people think i'm a i'm a mega woke lefty progressive and some people think i'm far right um and i just think well if there's an equal amount of people thinking that then hopefully i am at just in the middle like i perceive myself um and because I know people who work really hard on this and I know they're not you know extreme left and trying to shut down everything and block everybody and yeah then that's why I support it well but then I think about you in the middle of this so when you were saying that when you think back to sort of 2018 2019 when everything when you're in the thick of

everything and you said it does something to you physically. So what's changed in you that means that now you feel, do you feel more empowered now? That means you feel like you can be proactive in this, like your involvement with clamping down on this. How do you keep that feeling balanced if you have to be open to it in order to get fueled up to want to change it? Well, I mean, the CCDH, Centre to Accounting Digital Hate,

had real practical advice on what to do with trolling. So you can just block it. You don't have to accept this stuff. I wouldn't accept it in the street. Like you say, a couple of people can affect your mood. They can get you right before you go to bed when you're playing with your children. And you don't have to accept it.

And I don't have to accept it. And I don't. I don't. And when my first daughter came along, I just didn't have the time to be on social media like I did before. And also the election had just happened and they'd been widely rejected. And I know that there's some brilliant people in Labour now

really trying, determined to get rid of these bad actors. So it kind of took the pressure off um a lot um and you know for my children I want the you know there's a lot of this talk about you know why are people scared what were you really scared of and I as part of you know I've done a lot of charity stuff and I get the Jewish community honestly you get you put you dip one toe in and you just get 75 000 charity invitations to do all kinds of stuff and i try to do as much as i can if you go to a jewish school which i've been to do maths games and and stuff you know little children have to play like sleeping lions as as drills for terrorist attacks you know they have um bulletproof glass on the windows. At most Jewish buildings, you won't recognise those Jewish buildings when you walk past

because they can't be recognisable. They have security outside shawls, synagogues. You know, it's really, really normal to have really high-end security, and there's a whole CST, the Community Security Trust, who provide security at another charity, because we need it, because across the world, you know, there's still the Pittsburgh shootings,

there's, you know, killings in France, there are attacks. There's one of the reasons, you know, I campaigned against Jeremy Corbyn. He was campaigning to have terrorists who bombed a Jewish charity in London released from prison. Like, these are real threats. And, you know know while my children

are Jewish and while you know friends who want their kids to be able to go and play and have a normal life um you know I think it's important that you have to you know stand up against this stuff yeah I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know that about Jewish schools and sleeping lines and bulletproof glass and all that yeah they have they have, yeah. That's outrageous. It's not normal, but within the Jewish community, it is there normal. Yeah. And when... When you say it like that, you think, oh my goodness,

you know, why would you ever put down... Yeah, I mean, you wouldn't go to church and have, you know... Campaigning. Have security. You wouldn't go to even, you know, mosques. You know, there have been mosque attacks, but that wouldn't be normal to think, to have that level of security.

And CST are brilliant. They help because in the UK, British Jews have been so much more fortunate than Jews around Europe. And so they train other organisations, other religions, in this kind of security techniques as well. So they're great. But it's a real threat. There is a real threat.

And when you have people undermining that and, it's just it's not it's not no it's not right especially when you think of as you said like the the history that you grew up you know speaking about your family and you think well I have a voice I can use it and I suppose now that you've got your two little girls you think about what world do you want them to live in so that's yeah and then you know other parents i know choosing between kids going to school and you know there's flare-up in israel which has nothing to do with you know a kid in london being abused at school and the teachers kind of condoning it and often often you know this happened um and then thinking well should i send them to jewish school but then at jewish school they're more of a target,

and there's a little bit of security, and it's not right, really, is it? It's not right. We're in an age where we're desperately trying to eradicate discrimination and prejudice and make everyone equal, and, you know, it's not right. I agree. Absolutely, it's not right. And I think, I mean, that's what I was saying when I was

sort of reading through everything you've been up to I was sort of seeing like this like it looked to me like you were just getting like bolder and more empowered by a lot of the things you've done it must feel pretty incredible to speak out and then actually see that see it right to the end of it well what what was really special, I mean, I was invited, because I got my MBA in the New Year's Honours list, and I'm actually going in July to Windsor Castle to get it. That's pretty soon. I'm really excited, but I got invited.

At the Holocaust Survivor Centre, they had a cream tea, and there were a few survivors and people in the Jewish community being awarded in the honours, and we got to go there. And, you know, these people, what they've survived, and how they are, they're just incredible. And like my teeny tiny like contribution just pales in comparison. But at that event, the chief rabbi just stood up and said some words about what it meant to the Jewish community and him to people in general for my contribution. And I was so moved and so touched and actually when I do charity events and go and meet Jewish people that I just get

individual stories of you helped my son with with this thing with this fight that he was having and it was so stressful for him and and it really made a difference or you know you empowered my daughter to stand up to something that she experienced at school it's just or you know and you know other secular jews that didn't quite know where they fit say that oh actually you know she really like looks up to you it's just it's really lovely and it and it has had like a personal impact on so many you know individuals and that that really means the world because it it puts into you know it means i did something and i stood up for something absolutely and actually i, I think the more that we sort of, sometimes I think society is funny

because the more we encourage things of, you know, the next generation, the youngest generations, the more sort of binary and safe people get in their older age. And I think that sometimes is what's happening with, I don't know, all levels of acceptance. We want our children to feel they can be their complete whole self, them to be, you know, being sort of true to themselves, feeling authentic, that word that gets used a lot.

But then we, sometimes things get very clamped down when they step outside of the norm. And I know that on platforms like social media platforms, people can be very wary of being called out. And it's almost like people just don't really want to rock the boat with a lot of things. Oh, yeah, it's a lot safer just to keep your head down keep your mouth shut exactly but that's not what you would encourage for your kids is that you'd never say it's hard

because you you don't want to put them in harm's way and you don't want them to risk you know some kids were a jewish event like you know what happens if i go for a job interview and they don't like whatever i've posted you know you said well you've You know, you've got to be true to yourself. You've got to know that anything you do on social media is public. So if you can stand by it and you know that anyone can look at it over any period of time, then, you know, you only have to answer to yourself, really. And if they don't like it, that's kind of their problem.

But there are so many issues with that. And it's really hard to navigate. And I try to, you know, you have red lines with something she can't tolerate but I think I try to you know appreciate someone else has a different opinion on something and it doesn't mean I have to write them off as a person and I think social media makes that harder definitely but stepping away from that you know I see the awful things that are written about me and I think, well, that's not true. Obviously, I don't think it's true. So I try, you know, to take as you find with other people.

Yeah, like I say, everyone has their red lines, but you can be a bit more generous where you might lay them and give people the benefit of the doubt of maybe, you know, there's a grey area or maybe they didn't quite mean what people are twisting it to or you know just just just really see with your own eyes listen with your own ears and make up your own mind absolutely like everyone um you don't have to hate everyone ever yeah yeah i think you're absolutely right with all that and um so obviously this is you've been thinking about your own childhood and what elements you know you want to incorporate with your girls do they have any similarities do think, to how you were raised?

I don't know about how I was raised. I mean, I think my parents gave us a lot of freedom in a good way and I think I'm trying to do that with the kids. Just let them try stuff. I mean, they've got two very independent girls, especially a three-year-old. She's so independent and I love it. It's brilliant.

It's my favourite age, objectively, like three, four. Because they're so bold. They're completely unapologetically themselves. Sometimes a bit too much, but I'm sort of rooting for them sometimes with that too. Yeah, I mean, it's just nice watching them grow, isn't it? And you've got five boys and they're all so different. And then we've just got the two and the second one comes out and it took us like an hour after she was born because Maeve's looks

like Pasha so she's got dark hair dark eyes olive skin and we saw that you know the scan before she was born it was like oh we've got another one the same and then Noah came out and after an hour Pasha went oh look she's blonde and it was like really and she's you know because she's covered in everything but she's blonde hair, blue eyes, fair skin. And they're totally different personalities. And you just, you know, it's just a pleasure as a parent, isn't it? To see their personalities come out and to see how they are. Yeah, that's kind of what I got into.

I was like, oh, they're really different. I wonder who else is out there. Yeah. But then I do think you're quite, I actually saw that you'd sort of basically like, with two kids, we can fit into like a normal size car normal size high tower room I mean I mean I would I love I do love I love kids you could just keep having them I can see why you would um but I just then you have like a teething week and you're just like no no no I know I well to be honest I'm when we first started talking today

I was nearly like can you just if you interview yourself and I make all the right noises because I had such a bad night's sleep which culminated in Mickey and I were down here my heart about half four quarter five this morning um which I didn't want to be happening so that's what time I got up so my brain oh so annoying and you just think of all the things you've got to do that day and how much harder everything's going to be because you've not really slept yeah but it's so light outside as well he when I was saying it's still night time he just wasn't really like yeah right whatever um so I wanted to ask you how because obviously your husband has a different he came from a different country how do you incorporate his russianness well that's the

thing you say you know upbringing is from you know we're repeating but he was in soviet russia so he was in an apartment block where there was no running water in his flat there was an outside toilet even though it gets down to minus 40 in the winter um and his mum you know they didn't have nappies in those days they had to make their own kind of things out of cloth and carrier bags you know so it's a completely different experience but i'm not i'm hoping you haven't recreated this no but it makes you realize all this all the paraphernalia you don't you don't need it that's true you can you just get on with it you know just got them got my boob for the milk you know something a bottle lid they'll play with if you really need it you know you can get by without all the stuff even

though our house is full of stuff um but they say no wonder noah's so happy next door after at home she's got a bottle you buy all these stories it's like cats you buy all the cat stuff and they're like no i will sit on the hard floor next to the soft thing you bought me um but they're they're bilingual um so they both understand um and noah's starting to speak russian maven's you know equally happy in russian and english and we've got ukrainians living with us so um noah the little one also kind of understands everything in ukrainian and mave the other day said something in ukrainian like wow they just pick it up they're like sponges at that age um and pash speaks them in russian i speak to

them in english um so you know they've got a bit of everything um and they're getting kind of they're starting to sing a few russian nursery rhymes with him and and now the brilliant thing is um you know some people like you will not watch television you will not we're not like that but we can watch you know when mave was two she was obsessed with b and you can get Bing Bunny in Russian so she can watch her cartoons and be learning a language at the same time um and then you know when they're a bit older you can put subtitles on and then they can you know learn as they go um so they're getting a bit of everything again you know a bit of Jewish bit of Russian bit of English bit of Ukrainian as well mixed in that's so fab I'm actually really jealous of I've always been thought it must be lovely to grow up bilingual actually i think that's such a gift well it's interesting you see

things i mean we just you know i've been told about you about um bilingual children their brains do get wired slightly differently really in what way i'm not entirely sure but they generally statistically they do better across the board in different subjects and because you think well if we start in bilingual will they be slow in english or they but actually statistically they do better across the board in different subjects and because you think well if we start in bilingual will they be slower in english or they but actually statistically they generally do a bit better and and what's been interesting is is seeing things like her learning to count so you're not you're not you're never quite sure if they're just repeating words and repeating patterns but when she was learning to count she would switch in the middle she'd be like one two three so you can see that

she knows the position and she knows what they mean. And it is interesting, you know, and again, they say the most, I don't know, the word is like polyglotic or whatever, the best adults who speak most languages, they pick and choose bits of languages

because not every language has the right words to explain each thing. So they'll pick bits that's easy and mix and match. And now, you know, Maeve's three and a half, so she was, I don't think she knew what language she was speaking before, but now you can see her switch from one to the other when she's speaking to different people.

So it's kind of fascinating to watch her do that. I love the idea of the counting in one language switching to another that's amazing and the idea of choosing which which words articulate best where you what you need to say sometimes it makes you laugh at some of the things she does but um yeah it's fascinating to watch and you get a real sense of what she's understanding and the pattern spotting she's she's doing um yeah it's yeah it's really interesting no i think that's great i'm just thinking it's probably a bit too late for me to start that with my kids

the extra bonus bit of like going to have to use more of their brain it's a bit like i suppose like the cab driver is learning the knowledge that literally using more parts of their brain probably i wonder what language they dream in i don't know i've asked that with passion he doesn't know i think he i don't know yeah who knows it's so magical it really is and i mean are you as a person are you someone that does like lots of like long-term planning or are you kind of okay i can't remember what i'm doing tomorrow oh yeah yeah um no no no and especially passion is even worse than me and i think he's had his influences rubbed off on me like i think especially because of his life he's i mean he

started off in siberia then he went to the middle of russia they went to moscow then he ended up in new york and then out all these opportunities ended up in la out of you know happenstance and then in london and then he's ended up here he was supposed to be here for just you know yeah one strictly season or whatever and he's found uh found a wife and some children um so if we don't yeah we're terrible absolutely terrible with planning stuff um i don't think it's terrible i think it's sometimes it's quite good introduction to parenthood actually there's so much if it doesn't work out anyway so i think it can be quite good if you're just sort of a little bit more you react to things yeah yeah i'm sure it's got its benefits and its negatives but um you know we're thinking you know in a couple of years we'll move out of london but

we haven't decided where you'll know when the time's right and did you ever consider not keeping going with tv and all the things you were doing? I love it. No, I love it. And now, you know, parenting, you go to work for a rest, don't you? It's another one of those things. You're just in that space and that's all you have to do at that time when you're on camera. It's such an indulgence, isn't it? It is. It feels lovely when you can just focus on one thing.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you just, it does feel like a rest. And you go home and then the kids and you put the kids to bed and it's like, okay. So no, I love it. And Countdown, the schedule's so good. And because of the pandemic and because of the way that they've just been letting me breastfeed. So if I need breaks to pump or feed the babies or whatever, I can do that.

So I was taking Maeve up to start with and now she's at preschool, so I take Noah up with me. I'm really lucky that I've been able to keep doing that and she's going to turn two in November and I'm hoping to stop and start ditching her and get her off to preschool, get her off the boob, get my boobs back.

So you are a planner after all. Well, that, you know. When the second one was born, Maeve wasn't quite two and I wanted to feed her till I was two. I didn't want a planner after all. Well, that, you know, when the second one was born, Maeve wasn't quite two and I wanted to feed her until I was two. I didn't want to kick her off when the baby came.

So I had two once for two or three months and I was like, you know, I'm ready now. It's been three and a half years of breastfeeding and I'm on the countdown. More days than one.

Yeah, I think, well, I don't know about you, but when I stopped feeding my babies I always felt like I got a bit of my brain back actually I'm hoping for that just to get your body back and the one well she's one and a half and she just she's just happy to get my nipples out wherever we are at the moment I think it's just a comfort thing like yeah so I'm quite looking forward to just having them away. Well, I'm glad Countdown have been so hospitable. It's kind of the way you imagine it working.

No, it's been good. Yeah. It's been good, especially the first one because of the pandemic and I was around, didn't have anywhere to go, so she wouldn't take a bottle and we didn't force it. So she just followed me around. And thankfully the second one takes a bottle

so you can pump and run. Yeah, a bit of flexibility. There you go. Oh, it's so nice to talk to you, Rachel. Thank you for doing the pod. I had to wait a lot basically this way kept doing the podcast for a few years just so you get really entrenched in all the plates running lovely and i still need all your advice on child care we can pretend we're talking for a bit longer if you want because now it's really happy next door well it's all quiet just so much you just

stay here my god yeah there's a couple of sofas. Let's just have a quick nap. So peaceful. We both won't tell anybody. It suits me perfectly. What a lovely woman. Thank you, Rachel Riley. So gorgeous to sit down and chat and hear about everything, actually actually and how her life has shifted

and changed and I think sometimes that bravery and that sort of that sense of wanting to do what's right I think it can be a bit strengthened when you're a parent actually because you feel a bit of a legacy about the next generation maybe that also comes with getting older I don't know I've started to think more about that actually the older I get and I think also just thinking about will I be the person to call out things if I feel like there's something going wrong I do think it takes guts I like to think I'd always be able to do it but the truth is I think sometimes I can be a bit a bit meek really um something I'm working on I think I think it's really good to be able to call stuff out and be unapologetic about it I think it's a good thing so yes I can learn from that for sure and uh yeah just a complete pleasure to chat so thank you to Rachel I would say as well poor Rachel when she got to my house

she just hurt herself she like hit her eye on the corner of her boot and she still came over even though she was obviously in a little bit of pain. Nothing some frozen peas couldn't solve. But thank you to Rachel for persevering even though she's probably thinking I just kind of want to lie down for a little minute. You know, sometimes these things happen. I've got distracted. I've just noticed my cat is lying in such a comfy way. I want to be a cat.

Cats have quite a nice life, don't they? Just mooching around, snuggling, sleeping, exploring, eating a little bit, exploring some more. They're very low maintenance as well. Yeah, be a cat. That's my take on that. Anyway, thank you so much to Rachel. Thank you to everybody for listening. next week back with another brilliant guest i'm so happy with this series i know it's um probably something i say every time but it's just been really lovely putting it together and another wonderful array for you so yeah where to next you'll have to come back next week and find out i never like telling you it's going to be just in case something goes a bit wonky and i have to swap it. That would look unprofessional. That's the last thing I want. Anyway, in the meantime, I hope you're having a nice chill time, whatever you're up to. I hope you've managed to

have a little bit of a break during the summer holidays. Or maybe if you don't have kids or your kids are grown up, you're lucky enough to not be beholden to the actual school summer holidays. Wow, I have got such a long way to go with that I'm sure I've mentioned it before but my youngest is about to start reception so I'm still in it for the long haul but one can dream anyway lots of love see you next week thanks bye Thank you. I'm going to go. Embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes, led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton all-access membership separate.

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