Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 104: Ruby Hammer MBE

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

Ruby Hammer MBE is a make up artist and entrepreneur. I first met Ruby when she made me up for a Christmas cover of Red magazine. I love her hardworking ethics as well as her helpful and gentle honesty.I spoke to Ruby earlier this year and she told me how her family moved to the UK from East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) during the civil war there. She talked honestly and movingly about her strong connection with her late mum, who had her at the age of 17. She also told me how she believes the layers and layers of love and discipline that you lay down as a parent, show up in your child as they grow up. She also shared how much she treasures her little grandson.Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hey, hey, it's me again. And it's you again. And how are you? I say you again, presuming you've visited Spinning Plates before, maybe you haven't. If you're new, welcome. What brought you here today? Maybe you wanted to hear about my guest,

Ruby Hammer. So Ruby is somebody I first worked with a really long time ago, actually. She's a brilliant makeup artist. And she's also an entrepreneur. She's released her makeup range. She still has makeup products now. She has some lovely pens and things like that, pencils and brushes. She really knows her stuff. She's been doing what she does for a really long time, and she's very skilled.

And so whenever I've had my makeup done by her, it's that nice feeling of being in very safe hands. Also very good at skin. She takes good care of your skin when she's doing it. Sounds like an obvious thing, but not every makeup artist sort of does nice things to your skin before they start. Ruby always does. And I used to have a lot of her products

when she had a brand called Ruby and Millie. In fact, it'd probably horrify her. I think I still own some, even though they're probably a good 15 years old I don't know the ethics of that but whatever it's my face um yes complete joy to speak to Ruby it was actually a little while ago now we spoke earlier in the year um and I'm not just not sure for one reason or another now felt like the serendipitous time to publish our chat so you have to picture us back in and sort of I think it was more like springtime went around to our lovely house and had such a good chat she was

about to have her little grandson over her baby grandson was going to be looking after him for a while because she's now a grandma too but we had such a good conversation about generations about when your children become adults and seeing them become a parent and also about how her family story so how she'd moved to the UK from well it's now Bangladesh but we used to be East Pakistan during a civil war and and also about her parents sound like incredible people and particularly about her very strong connection with her mum and I can tell you when you go around to a house you just feel a sense of her mum everywhere so obviously they had a big connection with each other a big bond and there's photographs of her and every day she lights a candle for her mum and I do think that's the way that you kind of continue the the generational thing of passing

down the love and the wisdom that you've got from previous generations if you're lucky enough to be close to your parents or maybe some other family member that was really significant for you and gave you that anchor it's just that's all the good stuff isn't it so yes it was a really lovely conversation and uh she had some really beautiful sort of objet d'art in her house nice glass things and i hope they all stayed intact after her baby grandson came to stay. Fingers crossed they did. I certainly didn't hear anything otherwise. But yes, here's Ruby and lots and lots of wisdom. So yeah, if you're listening to The Spinning Plates for the first time,

you join me at a good time because I think you're going to glean some good stuff from this. See you in a minute. well good morning ruby how are you today i'm really good thank you sophie it's lovely to see your gorgeous face so how's life at the moment you just got back from holiday i just got back from holiday but sometimes it feels like we've had the most amazing relaxing time it is the beginning of the year but when you come back it's like everybody throws you into the deep end with no spite so you think oh my god that holiday yeah relaxation it wears away in like a half a day nanosecond yeah do you remember when you were little and you'd go back to school and everybody would it was like the first day of term and you'd think oh great the first day of term is going to

be great because we're just going to be catching up and by like lunchtime it's like you didn't have the summer holidays because they throw you with all the things you haven't done or what you've what you've got to do what's ahead so yeah but it's a bit of life so imagine if you didn't have that break how overwhelming that would be so it's quite nice to take the time off but yeah it is what it is isn't it yeah what what does the year hold for you what's what you're up to at the moment well I mean I've just got my new grandson so next coming week they're going on holiday and for the first time they're gonna well he's only a year and a month old but I'm going to be looking after him for the full week.

Oh, wow. So even when my daughter was young, I never, I just took her with, or my mum came, or my brothers came, or my in-laws came, or somebody came with us, or we just went, whether it was a flash holiday, a cheap holiday, whatever. But I've never really left her alone either, so touch wood. So there's so to be honest all the work all the things what is looming is that I just want to take this lovely boy and I want to hand him back to his mum like with no bumps and scars and no kind of fears so that overrides all the other work things which there are you know there are and I juggle lots of things now, you know, so I've got some things for brand.

I consult certain things. Then there's some social media things, you know, because there's paid collaborations and there's some things that you just do willingly. And then I'm still a jobbing artist, not that I do as much. Pre-COVID was a lot, a lot. And now I don't do as much and I think it's probably true for everybody but um you know so they're still they're still there there's a beginning as soon as he's gone I have a I have a proper shoot on for next or something like that so so it's just putting

different hats on one year old for a week, isn't it? I mean, as you're talking, I'm looking over your shoulder, a very beautiful glass ornament that might have to go a bit higher up. That's my mum, late mum. And it was actually, I think it was here when she just came to see it, where she'd never actually seen it done up my home or done comfort, but I just wanted her to step foot in it. Oh, yes.

So I thought if you ever come visit us, mum, up least you'll you won't think where are they this I don't this doesn't look familiar I know it sounds stupid no I think that sounds lovely that was it no well that that speaks volumes about the connection you had with your mum well I just I just adored her and I still think she's up there but it is the nature of life, isn't it? Yeah. Nature's like that, we're like that, and we... Otherwise, it stops you living. Absolutely. And there's nothing like new babies to bring about that next chapter and the evolution of things.

And I'm telling you, he is a joyous little one, and it's not just because he's ours. All little ones are joyous. All of them. All of them. But there's a touch of, like, regret or a bit of, you know, you think, oh, God, how much. The way I adore him, what she would have just, you know, because she adored Rina, my daughter. And then what she would have liked in this young boy.

My God. Yeah. But you know what? It's fine I I just say again if you're up there mum you can see but also I think sometimes when we lose loved ones you have a sort of desire to keep them present in your life still but she always will be exactly if the love is there and the connection is there yeah how. How are they not with you? They're with you. Exactly. Exactly.

And also that's a continuation of the family too. So there might be traits you see in him and you go, wow, I just saw a bit of my mum in you there. Exactly. And what's it like being grandma? How are you finding that? Oh, my God. It is absolutely phenomenal.

So the weird thing is, even my Rena says, mum, I always knew you'd love whatever I had boy girl whatever but she goes I just never thought you'd be this besotted and then when you speak to other grandma you know there are because of my age there were my era there's some colleagues and things and then they were grandparents just a bit before. And I always had, you know, I'm quite in touch with people's feelings and all that. But then I realised, my God, I didn't even realise how much I should have paid more attention to them. But now we're all, again, we're all on the same page when they go, you see, you see Ruby? Is it good? Is it good?

And it is. There's nothing like it. There really isn't. It's kind of quite hard to explain that it's not a logical thing that love floods about and then even to point where reena sometimes she goes would you well is it about him or is it about me and i'm like what it's not a competition i love without you there wouldn't be him but i just adore him i don't think she should query anything i'd just be like thumbs up up. Thank you, Mum. That's great.

That's it. No, just sometimes she feels, it's about, and I'm like, it's about both of you, dear. It's like, don't take it in the actual way. Yeah, and I think I see it with my mum and my elders particularly. She's close to all of my kids. So have you got both your parents around? Yes. Yes, my dad lives quite far away from me and my mum lives 10 minutes away from me

so I see my I live 10 minutes away from her so well it's a similar thing then so I see her all the time um and like you she had me relatively young not as young as your mum who I think was 17 all right and she had yeah but my mum was 23 um and also similar to you and your daughter there was a period of time where it was just me and my mum. She was a single mum with me for a while. And she sort of credits that as being a bit of like the sort of keystone of our relationship, really. It sort of set up a lot of the dynamic and our closeness, I think. I can see with her and my eldest that there's a really lovely relationship that can happen with grandparents and grandchildren

where you've got the same love that you had for your own kid, but that you've sort of removed the barriers of judgment and the bits where you clash heads? No, there's all kinds of things where you're, as the mum, you are navigating waters that you have no idea about, even though you've got that support, you've got this. And this is where somewhere somewhere however many years later there's a you're able to feel comfort that I didn't kill my child so I'll be all right with this one and you just bring little things in but there are things where some things I see and I think how do you know what you're doing what is all this I

didn't exist and I wouldn't have been able to guide her. You know how they say you can tell her what to do in the steps? And I said, no, I just think she's an amazing mum. Like I think you would, oh, Sophie, you're a modern young mum and we're just there to give our support in the bits that there's not tangible things or there are just, it's just literally not overriding your mothering skills or anything like that they're your children I'm just here to be you just use me support me and that line goes on that's all it is and then I look at her and I'm like in awe because I think and your mum must feel the same about you you've reared

five kids I'm like wow well you know rearing so it's a constant I'm still in the process it never stops so even for Rena sometimes when she when she must think this is it I'm like no you're still my child I just know you're capable now and I've just got to let you be there and I'm always here if you need me but it doesn't ever stop and I think that's what people don't realize yes it evolves doesn't it I mean I still feel like I think that's what people don't realise. Yes, it evolves, doesn't it? I mean, I still feel like I need my mum for lots of things all the time. I sometimes need my mum. I'm 61 and I think, God, if I had my mum, then I'd know.

If you've been blessed enough to have a connection with your parents in a good way, you'll always miss the bit because they're not here yeah you know I've lost both my parents now but that that that's normal too and then you have to sort of think well what do they equip me with that I have got to deal with this or okay I need to ask for help and where can I seek that and then you will find it from your friends from your partner from your husband from reading, from whatever that is. You've got to not be like, oh, my God, now I've got mum and you go doom and gloom and down a spiral black hole.

You have to sort of just think, okay, she's not there. Maybe I'll just quietly send the feelers out there and say, mum, help me, guide me, and then what should I do? Who should I ask? What can I do? And then it comes to you because you've got to just very... Without going like a headless chicken, it's got to be addressed. I feel anything in this life you can't run away from. You can't deny it and you can't...

And I'm not saying it's really pleasant, but you have to sort of find an innate bit of courage for yourself because it is finding because no one else can do that for you. So when you know that it's going to help you, it's like those poor people in the Ukraine now. Can you imagine what they're going through? And they are being brave and courageous and bold and, what, is it easy? No, it's not.

And somewhere it's like that when you face the thing, each one of us, we have to at least try to find that courage, to kind of address it without just your first action can't be just giving up. Yeah, well, yeah. And sometimes it's as simple as just one foot in front of the other. It might be screaming for help, but then do it. It's an option. It's still something.

Just not just that. I'm just going to give up without trying. without trying yeah and I guess when you're talking about when that comes to loss um sometimes you want to be the best version of yourself for that person too because your mum would not want to see you yes broken by it she'd like to think that she's she wouldn't lay the foundation for you to she knew she had cancer and she and you know that dignity and grace that was there. So she must have been inside, she must have been petrified. There's no way you're not, but addressed it a certain way, dealt with it a certain way, and still gives you an example of what to be like that.

And it's okay because there's still sometimes where I just lie there and I'm thinking about her and I just put the duvet on and for half a day I've got nothing okay it's not important it's not a paid job because and it's all right to wallow in that and then jump out of it as well yeah it's all normal what I'm saying is everything is normal and depending on how you feel at that moment how you address it but the only thing is you can't just even when I do that like I'm giving up I'm lying there but I know I'm just gonna lie here maybe for half a day then I'm gonna just jump out and have a shower and get something to eat do something for somebody call somebody that makes me

laugh something because it's got to be done or I'll just wallow here and then know tomorrow morning I'll have to snap out of it yeah have a nice shower, brush my teeth, get a nice cup of tea and realise it could be a lot worse, couldn't it? There's a hell of a lot of people worse than what I'm going through at this moment. There always is. That's now quite a modern and, you know, the way that people are encouraged to deal with emotions is not to let the emotions come. And actually, you know, you can't bury them. You can't just put a wall in front of it. And I think that's very much now the modern way. But where did you, where have you sort of learned that from?

Is that something that your parents would get at? Because your childhood had a little bit of turmoil in it. No, so look, I was born in Nigeria. My parents went out there in 1961. My mum was seven months pregnant with me. And it was only meant to be a one-year contract and I ended up staying for 12 years. So I was born, my two brothers were born.

He progressed up the working ladder, but there was a Biafran civil war in that time. Not that I've been in it and I'm aware of the feelings of it. And I get more, when I read the novels now by those writers that wrote about it at that time, it then clarifies, you know, in my head, historically what I had gone through but at that time you you are kind of closeted and protected I just remember a ministry of works coming in and digging this trench because we were expatriates we're not Nigerian so they kind of built this trench six foot under whatever and it was like in case there's any bombing or anything and then you're in there and after that they would obviously evacuate us out but they didn't ever bomb that far north where we were so we were quite insulated but you're still it was still a country in civil war

and that trench became a place for us to play so it was for us kids so for grown-ups it was a thing that okay they could bomb one day yeah but for us it was like oh adventure and then so you thought about it but we were a little so there is that and then again in that formative you how we ended up being in the uk is because by the age of 12 my dad thought okay now we have to form your education it's time time to go home. And it was, we're from Bangladesh, but that was East Pakistan in the 70s or after independence, again, from the British. And we were here in London, holidaying, whatever, buying clothes, stocking up, doing this, loving the telly because we never had TV growing up.

And suddenly you turn the radio on Monday, March 26th, and it says civil war, East Pakistan, West Pakistan. So he's got no job in Africa, can't take his family to a war zone. And we were in a hotel room here in central London. I was in Duke Street and Cumberland Hotel, which was very lush and posh at that time and never did go eventually found a job bought a house in putney um put us in school that's 48 years later this is home but you know every year i remember having all our passports all geared new photo pictures because you'd have to we weren't

refugees but you you had grace because that was a country and then also we weren't a drain to the system in this country so we weren't suddenly going and taking drawing dull money and this money my father found a job he's we bought a house we've actually put money into this country so it was all right so you weren't sponging off you know you know, so it was kind of different. And every year they did one seal, one seal, and then eventually it was like, well, do you want your British passport? And then he went for it because by that time you're doing your O levels. Would he then uproot us and take us to, I would have had to go to like boarding school in India and learn my language.

And we always spoke English, but I'd have to, you know, I can't read or write my language. I can speak it fluently. I have very, very deep and hard roots into my culture and all that. But it would have been quite, it would have been almost brutal, cruel to uproot us from here to back there. And so it is funny how you adapt so I have learned that from both my parents that they're quite pioneering they're quite bold they keep their culture what's

good in it but then they have taught us to fit in with the laws of the nature of the countries you're in speak the language do the food and realize it's all the same it's you have to you know you have to be open and not just so we weren't one of those kind of immigrants that cosseted ourselves and that's it we're going to speak our language and you're going to go down you know I was raised Muslim but I never went to school with it all covered like that and didn't go out and didn't do this we did you adapt because you have to. I'm just thinking as well about your mum and dad. I was thinking your mum getting to Nigeria,

seven months pregnant. At 17. At 17. And apparently when they were making the move to go out, because it was then East Pakistan, so they went from Taka, you had to go via Karachi, which is the capital of West Pakistan, before you flew to London, Nigeria. By the time he got to Karachi he was like okay I'm calling it a day that's it you know now he got he got comfy he got scared you know what am I doing

and she was like they've given us a party they've given us money they've given us blessings they've given us this because i'm not going back so even then you realize now yeah she was a strong one she's going we can come back but i ain't turning back halfway because we're gathering we're seeing this through so he was really like i'll just give him back their money i'll just give him back their contract that's fine they can find somebody else and she was like no that's not happening so part of that must be that is from her yeah and he was more of the educated intellectual very very deep down he's very hard work it's very it's that unique thing between both of them and it was a good partnership but she's also the bold like no we're not going back they've given us a send-off and we're going to come back at the end of the year and then say

we don't want to go back but I'm not going back off yeah but then she actually ended up staying in Nigeria and then loving three babies by the age of 21 which is unbelievable you know and then she probably miscarried one in between my two brothers there was one wow so she think of all the conversations as well your parents were having behind closed doors about your future and then coming here thinking we're just going to be here for because the intention wasn't to stay in the uk no no it wasn't into where could we go so thankfully he had money so we were able to continue. And everyone thought, it's a bit like the Ukraine war, everyone thought that would be over and done within two minutes.

Either Ukraine would capitulate or the Russians would be booted out because the world would stand up and push them out. None of that happened, did they? So it was the same thing in Bangladesh. You had to fight for your survival, for your independence, and that's what they're doing. The world helps you. We might see an end to that war. And it happened like that for us too. You know, India came to our support. Russians came to our support. China did not. And America, Nixon was a bit funny. You know, so it was like, it's very complex, all these things. But in the end, it's always just normal people with their kids.

So if dad wasn't educated and hadn't been able to, what the hell would have happened to us? Then we would have gone. And so when you were here, were you part of, were there other people that had done the same journey as you? Or was it your family? No, no, it was just our family. So because we were coming from Nigeria.

But it's funny you ask that question because in that time there were a lot of Ugandan Asians that had been kicked out by Idi Amin for whatever reason and because they were Asian we're Asian everyone just thought you're all the same oh are you looking for a corner shop is the order and I was like no no we're not we're not Gujarati we're not Indian we're from East Pakistan that we don't know what what we are now because you're East Pakistan but you hadn't become Bangladesh yet and so even when he had to find a job because of this influx of Asians everywhere you know before you rent before you do but in the end he thought no I better buy a house because I'll have to pay rental money then it has to be a certain standard because there is three kids and my mum was always a housewife so he was brave and again they found their way so you were sort of everyone

kind of assumed you're all part of that same batch but we weren't and it is different so however people that's quite good to know that people bunch you together think you're all got the same oh you're all immigrants oh you're all gonna end up in a corner shop somewhere oh you're all sponging off us you're all this you're all that it's not like that for any there's unique things to every union every family family, every... Individual. Yeah. So does it frustrate you that there's still so much conversation about people?

No, because it's our human... That's our human thing, isn't it? I mean, even animals do it. They carve out a kingdom. They behave certainly with their little... Even the gender thing, you know, where it's like the lady lioness actually hunts for the food. The guy rules and looks after, gives them protection,

but she still has to do the donkey work and bear the kids. And then, so we can't really, you'd say, oh, I'd like, but look where we were, look where we've come, and look, I hope, where we're going to end up because I'm not going to be here forever and hopefully by the time Max, my grandson, is old. It's just, this is evolution of life, whichever sphere. So I think there's no utopia, there's no magic wand you want to wish away and do that. As long as we're moving and it's in the right direction, well, what can you do?

Look what people during the war would say, our grandparents that were like, you know. Yeah, absolutely. You can't just bemoan, well, it used to be better like that and now look what you've done to it. Because that's not exactly a nice baton to pass on I agree with that and you demean and you undermine yeah what you want to take away my youth or how I think about something or this is what we have been lucky that I've got Google I can immediately figure out that might be what I need to do next instead of telephone calls or you know sending smoke signals to someone. Oi, chief, what do I do?

You know, like, it's, so I do have that attitude where I think, yes, it's upsetting, but it's just the way we are, aren't we? Yeah, and I guess as well, a lot of it is very recent history. There's, you know, constant transition. It's just the way it is. Yeah. What stays in one place? Yeah. Are you in the same place you were five minutes ago no not even five minutes ago i'm so literal i'm thinking i am still on the sofa but i understand the point you know

what i mean so yes so that all it is is every bit of that molecule or atoms is magnified, magnifies that module and it goes on that. Yeah. And do you think, so when you were raising your daughter and she's having quite a different childhood in that she's got much more consistency and continuity, was that quite significant to you as her mum? No, because it was just bringing something different.

When she, you know, look, we got divorced when she was about 12, significant to you as her mum no because it was just bringing something different where she I you know look we got divorced when she was about 12 so she had a good childhood but then then she had something that was different to me like my parents were together from when they were married uh married to when she's buried him down whereas her her family broke. There's lots of things she's aware of in a different way and probably can cope with. And I just hope I haven't added to any of that pain, but I know we will have by not being the unit that we would have been. So it's just, again, it's different.

What was I meant to do? Stay with her dad just because it's for her and it occurs to me to stay or because it's easier or because you just look the other way. And then in the end you think, no, I'm a person. I happen to be female. I have to set an example to her that it was good while it was good. And now this is not acceptable to me. I don't have to just zip up and stay.

I'm not in some jungle in Sudan or in Bangladesh and what are the people gonna say don't need a man to put a roof over my head I have two legs and hands at work I'm not scared of work I can fend for you Rina but he's also your dad he's got obligations especially in this country has he got any doubt that that's his kid no so pay her bloody medical insurance and pay her school fees because I'm freelance and I don't know where my next bit of money is coming from because I am a basket case with this end of my marriage. And then when I get myself on track again, if it comes to it, I was quite successful, I say, you know, make a party,

but I felt like a failure. if I had to I'll work in self-reduce I've got those skills I'm not ashamed of anything to put bread on the table or to do that I've seen that for my parents it's okay to hard to be hard working you put it your all you can that's it so somewhere she had different continuity but then she had another traumatic thing that I've not gone through I don't know what that's like so sometimes she has a very good connection with my present husband Martin because he comes from a you know his parents were divorced when he was four Rena was older but sometimes I can see they have a lovely just it's just a thing that he gives me an insight to say you might not know what this feels like but I know what that's an understanding isn't it yeah yeah so it's it's

different for everyone nobody has the same blueprint that they follow do they definitely not and I think also I if I've got you know girlfriends going through similar things I always say well you're always too young to settle to something that's where you're sad and yes lonely that's just not that's I think I totally agree about the example yeah and I wanted my daughter to feel it's okay it's I didn't want her to think oh life is just rosy and there's life everywhere after you get married and that's it things can happen and especially in this and you're not supposed to just give up at the first she saw me fight for that marriage and then when it ended and I thought okay this is not good for

me anymore otherwise I will put a stone on my chest and zip up and to lead back to say look you owe it to yourself by how your mum lives her life to know the background like however my parents are they still supported whichever decision I was going to make they were going to support that and they for however you might think oh they don't understand they do understand they've seen it and every bit of anybody in life you know how you look at someone you think oh they won't understand that how do you know until you've actually given them the chance how do we know anything until you give people an opportunity a chance or just to talk or just and the more we do that the more you realize oh my god it's me that needs educating yeah well i always love that idea of you know

that look for what what brings us together not what divides us i was like that and conversation is exactly how those things get uncovered and there are different things that divide us and there are different things that unite us but they are they're all things that you just have to be as open as you can sometimes it's brutal painful and you're not able to but i just hope we can address here we can heal when we can get the help when you can swallow when you have to because there are some times where yeah it does it when you're because at that moment it's not the time for you to just go apeshit mad you've just got to zip up for this minute and be British and then there's a right time to have that bomb explosion or to yeah do what you need to do absolutely and if we could go back to what was happening when you

had your baby what stage was your career at that time? Nothing, because I'd finished university, and then when I'd met my, when I'd met Rina's dad, and then we were married, I was just an assistant. So I always had my daughter. So it was like when I was assisting for probably about two years or something. So then when you'd get the odd job, I'd be like, Mum, I've got a job in about, you know.

So it's not like people think you've just immediately jumped and you're like you know it's not it's a craft I um I'm I wasn't formally trained as a makeup artist I just I learned on the job I had a love for it and I did my friends growing up I pulled over magazines I did all of that but I still have to learn my craft so it started off as something you loved but wasn't the thing because you did a degree in engineering is that right no no economics economics okay so then I had my degree and then I ended up assisting and then I just I love that so I just took that on my dad probably waiting for me to do my master's or whatever it never did happen and as you progress you know you're testing you know people

you do this you do that and she'd give me the makeup artist I used to assist lesser jobs or things that didn't have enough money for her and she would go for the bigger one she goes but Ruby can do that and then I did so you can't how do you get that first bit where you start assisting because that's the that's quite a big jump just it was by chance. Again, she was a friend of my husband's. And the shows were on at Chelsea Barracks at the time. That used to be where it used to be. And then she sort of goes, you love makeup. So she had an assistant, one that wasn't very reliable.

And I think the other one broke her finger or something like that. And then it was like, you love makeup. So why don't you do something? So she just tossed one of those, you you know access all area passes at me and she goes all right then I'll see you at four and I was like four in the morning and she's kind of looked at me and she went well the show is at sort of 9 30 and we've got like 30 girls so when do you think you want to turn up and I was like I'll be there and then my mum took me because we lived in Putney. And at that hour, it's five minute, ten minute drive, nothing.

So she drove me in the morning and that's how I started. So I just kind of, you always take the opportunity, it comes. I gave it my best. And then gradually you realise, oh, I'm earning a bit of money. And I always had my little girl. So I had an au pair. I live in au pair not a nanny but my mum was near my brothers were helpful George was a good hands-on father you know you just kind of cope and then it was only when she was really at school and she's five

and she's proper nursery full-time school that I probably took on or was at the stage technically to do a full-time job because before that I probably if it was some specialist thing I probably wouldn't have been equipped to do it anyway but there were certain jobs I could do I'd be like mum you're gonna have to someone's gonna have to go and get her from school and then will you be she goes yeah yeah yeah I'll do that well it sounds like you had lots of people supporting you I had that's why I give support because I I didn't have a formal nanny like my daughter has now but I always say to everybody a young one whatever that take it from wherever you can whether it's your friend your grandparents or your nice neighbor do that for people because one day you know don't just take it give that back somewhere somewhere in the thing.

Because it's not always just your family. Although I was lucky enough that it was my family, you know. And then I had this support from this young girl just to pick her up so that her routine didn't get up and down. But do you remember it, like, looking back that bit where you've got that? Because it's quite unique, isn't it, that stage when they're little like that and you're still also doing yeah but I was breastfeeding for for a year and then bit when they're there when they're on solos when they're potty trained when they're going it's kind of lesser but they but you're their mum and

and the other thing is for her to realize she was very good she's a bit like Max where she's actually not scared of going to new people. There are some mums that, you know, the baby won't go to anybody else. Yeah, it's true. It's quite hard. So she was more sociable by nature anyway. He's like that. So it means you can leave them even if it's an hour or two unless they're not well or they've had the jabs or something.

So I just, I was lucky. And where did the confidence come from just sort of jumping into, because it's quite, some people at the point where they said, oh, you can come and assist, you like makeup, would have gone like, yeah, I like makeup, but it's quite a different thing to actually be making up other people's faces. It is.

And it's different to what it is now. You know, on social media where you've got influencers, you've got people where they're doing themselves all day long. And even for me, after COVID, where we had to do more of that to make a living, I couldn't go on a shoot. So I had to find a way of, how am I going to do it? And I'd be doing myself to say this, I'd do that. And it's fine.

But deep down, even the young lady that I work with to to post it or to you know I'm not the most technical even now I think god how much can I do on my shitty face I want to do someone I don't care who it is just put someone in front of me I'd love to do that because that's still where I get that bit of joy yes your back goes at the end of it because I'm that old I've been bent over and it wasn't the most you know I don't have a high chair I don't have this I don't have that technical there are things but that is I understood that even then and I thought I must get better at this because that's what I like and I don't know there is a pressure because you've got time thing as well it's not like just saying your friend saying can you help me with my eyeliner

here no so it's yes you're right but but I must have had it I must have had that bit of creativity or that bit to get on with people and then keeping myself lucid to know that when they're taking a picture when I was on those shoots to actually watch what does she how does she go about doing this job then how does she work with David Bailey and I just be quietly in there and she gets on when she opened her mouth when does she not this is black and white this is color this is completely different to when you're doing an advertising you know ad campaign and the technicals of that and just, you know, those days of not now, you know, there came a big change even in the way we work where things got digitalised, where before we just used to look at a polaroid,

want to engage, whether that would read correct what you've done. Until the film came back. I know. And it's not like we're waiting there until the film comes out. All it means is you've done until the film came back i know and it's not like we're waiting there until the film comes out all it means you've done the job it's gone the assistant then takes the film to all the labs all down soho was metro lab this lab that lab yes dropping those films off yeah we don't know do i so i'm looking at her but that's her judgment and then i'd have to make that judgment but you learn it you it, because that's why you're an apprentice and you do make cock-ups where you realise, shit, when it's black and white, I can't be that heavy-handed

because it could look like a stripy line when the photographer's saying, could you give her a bit more sculpted cheeks? And then he's lit it that way as well, and then she can end up looking gaunt. more sculpted cheeks and I'm gonna and then he's lit it that way as well and then she can end up looking gaunt so then then you knew I must do a test where actually this isn't just for the I'll do what it needs to be for the model for the hairdresser for the photographer for me but then I'd say can I ask you please to do just her with nothing on can you just take a picture on black and white in color so i can see then i'm going to do a little bit okay for me to gauge yeah how that looks yeah and then can i put a little bit more on can you put this filter on it that filter on it so i see how that reads

some photographers i'm where i've got time for that and then i'm like well i've just given a whole lot of my time i'd really love it if you wrote. So you have to just gently coax her to say, it won't take long. I'm not, this is not an editorial. I just, just to know. Just as a reference. Flash off a few frames that that's what it is. And when it comes back, I can see. Yeah.

Some were willing, some were not. And some, that's what you had to learn. I thought, well, I don't know. So I need to know that's what they're doing. There's a lot about relationships as well, isn't it? All of that that you are all aware of, aren't you? And we all have to do that. Nobody comes to this earth knowing everything.

But it's an interesting job as well because there's a lot of skill sets. You've obviously got to be good at the fundamentals of makeup application. There are technicals. Yes. But there are people skills. Because someone has to sit in that chair and you can't just, they have to feel good about themselves. I've been lucky enough to have you in front of my chair a few times. And each job is different, isn't it?

Like when we did like the red cover, the Christmas ones, you looked like a ethereal princess. You know, it was all different. It was armed worldly when you were on that ladder with a big long dress it's completely different to probably what you were doing for your musical things much more colorful much more this much more each job has its brief and so you come to it I come to it with no preconceived notions I don't just think I bring my favorite things new things I think oh I'd quite like to try but I don't come thinking I'm just going to do this on Sophie I don't think that

works you have to be open to see where where the day takes you and listen to the brief and take it on so it's technical it's getting on with people yeah it's it's been kind of reactive open could I take that could I be bold here or no this is not the time to be like that. Whatever. And do you ever have it where someone's in your chair and you're actually a bit like, oh, golly, I don't, you know, this is someone I really, I don't know, get a bit starstruck. I feel like I'd sometimes be like,

I've totally forgotten everything I'm supposed to do. No, sometimes it happens. And you just kind of, you cheat it through where you think, well, that's why you do that process of calming them down, prepping them, and sometimes saying, maybe let them get their hair, or I'm drawing blank because I've got, oh, my God, she looks so amazing with every hand I'm going to look at her going,

what am I going to do to her? What am I going to do to her? Then you just sort of think, well, let him do the hair and I'll go and get her a cup of tea. I'll do the skincare so I'm pressing, looking and seeing, is there anything you'd like? Is there anything they want? You know, and you glean bits and build your part

and then you kind of get going and then remotely it just keeps automatically, it goes on. It leads you somewhere. Yeah. You just have to, you can't panic because what am i going to do now i'm here for the bloody job what am i going to do just sit and go and i can't do anything i've just turned into a pool of water where's the makeup where's ruby gone she's gone they're really gonna think you're a pile of shit then aren't they like what are you going to

do so you can't it's definitely a lot of confidence trick, isn't it? Confidence and also just to say, okay, I might, I'm not Pat McGrath, so I can't come out with the most avant-garde concept, but let's take it like, let's not make her look worse than when she came and sat down in this chair. Maybe if I pull that off where she's actually got nice skin, eyebrows, one isn't going that way eyebrows one isn't going that way one isn't going that way and we're not going to try and do anything but she looks yeah better than when she just sat here you know like that getting your eyes up so maybe all right I will have one then I'll have

tried to do magic but I kind of you have to give yourself that pep talk to think okay so if you've got great skin lovely eye let's just not mess it up, shall we? And I suppose the whole time you were doing this, your daughter is growing. She's growing. The whole time. So she's really literally been there. And then she's grown. And then, you know, it was at that time we also had,

so it's not just as an artist. We had businesses where we brought Aveda to this country, launched that, Tweezerman. not just as an artist um we had businesses where we brought Aveda to this country launched uh launched that Tweezerman so there's all kinds of things I did with her dad where they're different aspects of our industry so it's not all just doing the makeup and although that is what I picked up my kit and went to work every day but you must have had other bits I was doing entrepreneurial spirit with you as well. So there are other bits like that.

Because I was thinking about that. Makeup as well, you could stay just being a really good makeup artist. You don't have to then, I mean, bringing out a range is... And that's, you know, so that's... And there are different facets to the industry. And you must know that in the way where you're a mum, you're a performing artist, you now do things on social media. COVID made you do other things that you pulled your skills

of what you do as a performer, being in your kitchen, dancing. Whatever that is, we all bring in skills and things that you learn as a person. So not just, this is my job, I'm a carpenter, that's all I do. No, now we bring all kinds of different things to our gift of whatever it is we're doing. An ambition too. There used to be a little bit of a hunger there, I think.

Because you realize that careers evolve and you know your life changes around it and then you think well I always need to have somewhere I can something to grow into for the next bit and then a new challenge sort of ahead of that yes yes but it's not always a game plan is it sometimes it just gets people sort of ask you and then they think you've got this blueprint and you've followed it. And I'm like, no, I didn't know I was going to ever exist. I didn't even know you can earn a proper living from that. I just knew I had a love of it because my mum used to make her

and watch the transformation you get from it. And then I'm doing this and I'm thinking, you know what, I could actually, yeah, all right, I'll just keep doing it. And then you look back and you realise how far you've come and then you think, oh, my God, they're asking me to do this and can I do it? Yeah, I can actually. So you keep going and then it evolves.

So it's not. And then if there comes a stage now where I didn't think I'd be 60 and be doing a make-up art, I art I thought well they'd have got rid of us by then but actually you realize that now yes there are some very trendy young it's that sort of industry it's that sort of thing but there's still experience counts for something you can do some things very quietly effortlessly for whoever that client is so they can get this rising new style they can actually get something delivered yeah i mean it's not gonna want to spend half a day working out whether can you actually understand what i'm trying to tell you you can actually process that

out quickly yeah or there are certain things where you think that's it i've done so much donkey you know what i'll just stay at home today and play with Max because that job, no. I've worked that minefield. I don't need to go there. And I can feel it. It's going to be like that. You know what? No.

And that is actually a very underrated sort of bonus of experience. It is. Is knowing what you can say no to. Because at the beginning you say yes to everything because that's really important. And I really genuinely did. Yeah. And now i have to weigh up to think yeah it's always nice to have the money but i think oh god it's gonna no let some other lovely person get that opportunity yeah get that opportunity i don't want to thwart them i don't need to do this i can just stay at home and it's not stressful and on that as well I've noticed sometimes in in the creative world it can be quite hard to know when the time's right to

have kids as well because when when you're in the midst of that you don't feel you can really take your foot off the accelerator and there's never a right time to have a kid there's never things that I didn't have that I already had her and but I did have to um like there would have come a stage where when you're getting further especially in the 80s 90s where you would forge a link with a hairdresser and a particular makeup uh photographer or something like that and that after that work the three epi points were sort of new york paris and there was in london but paris and new york had all the photographers would gravitate to those areas the fashion was there everything was there so they would have had to come so i never lived in

new york and i never lived in paris i'd go back and forth to all of these places and other parts of the globe and do the best I can but I probably missed out on that kind of connect you know like there was Eugene and Pat with Craig McDean that started off in town then went off to New York and they earned the money and they did all that thing everyone starts at a certain way so I could have so suddenly if all you're dealing with I don't want to take away from those mammoth talents but there came crossroads like that in my life where it's like you have to sort of pick that I'll do the best jobs I can but I'm based here this is where my husband is this is where my child is this is where my family

is by that time my father was diagnosed with Parkinson's and they're here and I need to be here so I can't just give it all up yeah just go there and I could have I always think those things are so bespoke we've all we all go there and yet maybe because I didn't do that that might have been just you as a creative talented makeup artist but because of all the things I was doing here that's why now or it's my nature, that I've got all those other entrepreneurial, commercial aspects suddenly end up going on TV and I'm able to have learned that because not all of them can do that. Yeah, yeah, they've done loads of telling.

So there are lots of things, but that's exactly how life pans out and you choose and you take it and you go there. So there's not one career path or one blueprint for everybody and then when you become uh or you've decided you know I didn't know I was going to be proud I just had the baby and that's it and I wasn't I did have another child but I miscarried that one and I never had and then by that time it was towards the end of my marriage and I thought I'm not just gonna have a kid to glue this up where I can feel there's something not right. Or you've had more than one child, you've got five.

You know, people look at you, you're young. How is she a mother of five? And how do you cope when you're still doing your career, you're getting on? So there's no, everyone has to sort of, and I'm sure there's some bits where you've been lucky enough to sail through, but there's other bits where you've been lucky enough to sail through but there's other bits where you've had to work damn hard and do the trade-off between your family your career and just you Sophie this can have five minutes to put her feet up not exhausted I can I can imagine that feeling

with one kid but with five I'm like wow so there is's just only someone like yourself knows when you step into your shoes. Exactly. I do think all these things. And your partner in life and what your extended, you know, what support you've had to take and grab and seek and fight for yourself to do that. Plus, you know, even if people don't have children, there's all sorts of things that be going on in your all sorts of priorities all sorts of places you need to be um i've always i've used this analogy before in my head it's a bit like um if you've got like a little part of your brain that's where you put all the things that really matter to you and with kids i think like you know those spongy balls that magicians use where they can squish loads of them i feel like that it's the same size space but you're just sort of squishing more balls but everybody's got whatever those like foam balls are yeah sorry

it's probably a really terrible analogy. No, but it's similar to me where everyone says, how do you do that? And I said, look, it's like my analogy is like having Greek plates on spinning. And they're all there. And each new thing, each new opportunity comes, whatever that is, family, kid, whatever. Spin, spin, spin.

And then they all go in and some are spinning faster, some are slower. And then one's about to just crash and I'll just go and put my attention to the one that's just about to go. And then it doesn't mean the rest have stopped spinning or they're all fine. It's just you deal with that one first and then you go on and do whatever. And, again, it's a bit like everyone's life is like that isn't it yeah

and how does parenthood evolve like when you put you know when your daughter's in her teens and her 20s and her 30s how does how does parenthood shift well it was quite tough when she was when we were she's coming up to her teens and we are splitting up and there is only one child and he felt quite guilty so he'd allow, you know, if there are two parents, there's always a good cop, bad cop and it just always ended up in my lap that I'd be the bad cop because I was the disciplinary and I would be the one that, you know, and he'd never say no to her and she was a little girl that rapped her. So those kind of things got magnified because when my dad tells me

it's all right and I'm like, I don't know how to share a word with him because even though you're separate, we have got to put a united front. What's good for her? This isn't just what's easy for you, my friend. It's what's going to be good for her in the future. There are lots of those things that you navigate and maneuver. And then, you know, she comes out. So there were things where there were plus points

where she'd come home and have you know whether it's makeup or not she never craved for the makeup because she had abundant loads of it always could have it but it was nice to say oh they're going out and you'd go yeah come and eat and I can make you guys up if you want because it meant you could watch their eyes and look at them how they're going out and then when they come back late or do you want some toast you want some toast and cheese and you're looking at them they might have a bit of drinking and are they experimenting with you can see it yeah and that was the way to closely not say no and not be a bully but it was my god i'm just imagining my mum doing my makeup and then also seeing me at the other end of the wait as well.

But I could see that, not just her and them, to say, well, they've had a bit to drink, OK, but I didn't look like they've done anything else. And knowing that they will, they will do some, but in the environment, to know that it doesn't become an addictive, just an experimental, and you've got to allow them to do that and then trust them, but also be able to put your foot down too. I don't like them with that friend because this, why, you know.

So there are all kinds of things. And now, you know, then she went to university. Then when she finished, she worked a lot. You know, her working career was with her dad and watching all of that and also just knowing that you're not a mini carbon copy of him you've got to like do your own and not and not say in a way that would just cause another if it can open up the can of worms so i'm yeah it's not just it's because it's against him. I'm just like, you need to look at other ways of working and he's not the be-all and end-all of our businesses run.

You know, like, oh, there's just, it's ongoing parenting and being there and guiding and offering. And then now she's a working mum to say, you know, you're going to have to look at, can can you walk so that you don't lose your mental peace and then at that time so like I say I was worried about oh my god you don't want an unwanted pregnancy you don't want them doing drugs you don't want them all of that and then now I look at you know the girls I work with and younger mums they have to think of social media not mentally the things of trolling or bullying and online stuff which I would have known about any of that when she was growing up

because it didn't exist then so we have to look at all those other aspects now so every generation has their things that they have to be aware because it's unique to that era and time of parenting doesn't it absolutely and that is definitely a whole i mean that's a whole conversation itself but i think some of what you said is what reminded me that i read that you you said the key to good parenting is love and discipline and i thought that was actually brilliant it's very simple You have to have. I know that wherever I am today, whoever I am, whatever I am, the first result is I was given unconditional love. That doesn't mean life wasn't hard, but it meant that there was always a reservoir that they made me,

they gave me that bit. It's okay. We love, you know, you had that. And the other bit is there was discipline. My mum was, you know, like she was, you could mould her a little bit, but when she said no, she meant no, whereas my dad was outward the one that you'd be petrified of. But actually, you could actually bend him.

But if mum said, that's it, then that's it. Yeah. So you know you could, because dad would go, you have to ask your mum. There's all that. But you need, I believe that, because my father always, he didn't differentiate in sexes for an Asian man to not have done that, that you must be as educated as you can.

It didn't matter what that was, but you do have to be educated. Yeah. Because this life, you gain a lot of things from being educated. You don't have to be, you all have to be a doctor and you all have to be a lawyer, but you must educate yourself. Yeah. Within the spheres of what interests you. Not to lie and cheat, and give it your best effort,

and then once you know you've genuinely tried, it's okay if you failed or it didn't work out. Yeah. But that you know you've tried. it's okay if you failed or it didn't work out yeah but that you know you've tried and that takes discipline to try i saw how disciplined he was my mom was disciplined in a different and then hers was a bit more spiritual and a bit emotional open you know like how non-judgmental she was there are many many things you know but it is love and discipline yeah you give that to others you give that to your own.

And somewhere now I'm also saying to people that, I don't know if it's an Asian saying, because they always say, you have to trust when your kids get to a certain age because they are going to go out that door. You have to trust your, how't know how you translate this in english the upbringing that you've given them because that doesn't happen in one day it's not one slapping them slapping and no you can't do that and i've just gonna no it's over the course of their life you've reared them it's their upbringing or their whatever you've given you trust your parenting

yeah that you kind of have to trust that what we instilled in them when they face what they're going to face yeah have we done a good it's all there yeah it's so true which is you don't see the result of it very quickly but no you have to sort of you have to have a bit of faith in that haven't you you do and it's a long game because if these are your values that you've said to them yeah yeah that's exactly some families they all sit together and they do that some families don't have that luxury just do they not use that because you know like i sit and even now I think me and Martin probably don't sit at the chair there I sit here and I watch a bit of telly and we eat together

but we do sit and watch telly to some people that's wrong because you shouldn't but then that's how we've done it and it's bounded us in its keep and I miss so when she was growing up yeah we did sit around a table is that what they're going to do with that no whatever it is everyone has a thing and you've got to trust that that's so true about that what did you do because it's not just one layer is it no and you can't always be there there's going to be all the bits where you're not in the room and they've got to have that voice in your head if you're still looking for your mum's voice now. If we haven't equipped them to do that, it's different for each one. But just to guide them with the personality of what your children are like.

And they're all different, aren't they? My mum always used to say, look at the five fingers on a hand. That's one hand, but they're all different. Yeah, true. Well, that would be really funny, five thumbs. Five, it's on your hand, on that hand, and they're all bloody different. So true. So you have to, and you do have, you think, God, do I trust my,

but nobody's said that to you, so you need to think you have to trust. Yes, and it is, yeah, it's exactly that. Did you just mollycoddle them so that all they know is, oh, my God, somebody has to mollycoddle me because I don't know what, I don't know, I can't take that decision by myself. You've got to feel them, though, when there's danger, this is what you've got to do either run like the clappers ring on this door ring my mom doing that that that you in all the years they've been with you yeah that you've given them equip them best as you can yeah all perfect either none of us none of us are perfect parents at all ever ever ever but I got to

I have to have a bit of faith oh god I think I did we instill something in her definitely well your daughter is that like doing it's very successful good work ethic but also I was reading an interview with her where it sounds like she's really because it can be quite when you're starting out because she works in beauty industry so obviously there's people that she can work with like you said she worked with you know different aspects of her but she's got she's got to do her own little exactly her own identity and they sometimes there's a bit of like I just think god has she taken anything from me or is it all from him? There is some, and I'm very, very honest where sometimes,

and I worked very closely with him until I didn't. And then she worked very closely with him and she were long going. They're both her parents. So there is a natural thing because we're not together anymore where I just think, has she got any of my emotional make-up? Because sometimes I look at her and I think, God, it's all him. But now I've got to trust that, you know what? I've done this for that many years and I continue to do it now.

So hopefully she'll manifest some of that and it's some of my qualities, if that's good for her. Yeah, and also nobody's all one parent at all. You know, you've still got, mum and dad, you sort of say, you're a bit like your mum, a bit like your dad, and then the final third is just all mine. And then it becomes, they're there, then it becomes it's less of a third and two thirds are you.

And that's an actual, you know, so it gets fragmented, not fragmented, the thing gets like fractions you know that it's still intense but more and more and more and more yeah when you're at my age I should have something of my own identity that is it's got a seed and an essence of my parents it can't be what they I can't do everything the way they would have yeah and be in that because that doesn't make me a mature adult does does it? There's no warp there. Yeah, yeah.

But also you've got things that are your own outside of being Mina's mum as well, which is important. And my own experiences, my own things that my parents did not experience. So I've got to... Yeah. There's a lot of wisdom in all that. So now we're at the present day and you're gearing up for Max coming to stay for a week. Is that the first time you've had him for that long?

Yes, I will have for that. So I've always gone there and done bathing and thinking when I'm able. And then sometimes I haven't been because I've also worked. So you know, oh my God, I might be that. And then I'm at that tail end of menopause where sometimes you've worked and then your whole back is gone and you think, God, I'm going to go and lift him up 12 kilos. So there's just bits of what you do, but this will be the longest stint

so that it's not like all last week when we came back from holiday, I didn't see him. But I would FaceTime him and look at him. And then I did go and have a little cuddle, but not long after. So this will be the first time, yes, that we're going to have him. But also it's such a miserable thing, yeah. For five, for a full week. And then his nanny is on hand.

Okay. So that if I have got work, she can, you know, it's not going to be weird. But that thing of when he's woken up in the morning to when he goes back to bed, that will be me. And I have done that for them before, two days in a row. Sounds really cute. Yeah. But also quite tiring, I feel like. And yes, so that's what I've also sort of said to everybody.

Can we try and do everything we need to do this part this week? Yeah, yeah. Because after such a day, I might need to say no. I think it's going to be adorable I'm already looking forward to being a grandma I don't know when it'll happen but it will it will in its own natural time you don't want it to be a grandma when your eldest is 13 do you so no but I feel like um my eldest is so put off at the idea of any kids from the the chaos of our house I don't think and then I'm gonna have

to wait quite a while they will they will though because they will realize that that bit of their siblings you know the way that it it's all in how old is your eldest he's 18 yeah so okay but at that age he's a young man and no I don't think you do want him to be a dad at that age and you know let him he's got a whole life ahead of him let him go and enjoy and live that and no i don't think you do want him to be a dad at that age and you know let him he's got a whole life ahead of him let him go and enjoy and live that and then he hasn't met the right all of that you don't want him you want him enjoying all of what it means to be that age and experimenting and finding but you don't really want him to be a parent at that age and although he might think oh that's the worst thing no he's just forging ahead now

yeah yeah you'll have to eat his own words later but i know and if he doesn't say he's a 30 year old and still feels that okay well you'll address that as a family when it comes to it yeah but now it's not fun i think you have to worry just let him go out there let Let him be safe. I'm not saying like, look, pressure on him right now. Let him be healthy. And he always has home and mum and dad to come back to. Exactly. I think that thing of the love and the discipline and also the layers and layers. Yes. And just trusting in your parenting as well.

Because you're going to have to show that bit of faith. Yes. Because you know what? Our own parents had to have done that. Otherwise, we couldn't have got where we are yes they must have had to allow us panicking inside but to say off you go yeah exactly that is a loving gesture that is there's a there's more there's a lot of shit we have to protect everything because you don't want to get hurt you don't want to do you want to get that but this whole world and there's some real

shit goes on some evil evil bad things around but i maybe i don't know if i'm being naive or not but there's an awful lot of people as a as a planet as know, however many, how many are we now? Seven million or eight billion coming up to people. And there's some right dirty dogs and bastards and evil, evil, evil that generates from them. But the good that generates from also that eight million. Because how many people, it's not me and you, we try to do the best we can, okay, as an example for our kids or whatever, or as a person, and then it gets magnified. But there are people out there that haven't had children,

but they sit in, who knows where, those Buddhist monks, those other Indian where they sit in the Himalayas and they're praying for the greater good. They do the greater good. There's the people that sustain. There's a scientist. There's layers of everybody that does for the greater good there's the people that sustain there's a scientist there's a there's layers of everybody that does for the greater good so as much as someone is destroying all that i'm sure there's a bit more of greater good going on oh i definitely believe that i definitely believe

that and that i believe so whether it's the one, whether it's a deity up there doing it or the energy or nature or whatever or not, but predominantly they're still. And, yes, we are destroying our planet. Yes, we are doing this, but we're still, we're not all giving up, are we? There's still each one of us trying to do what we can for it. Yeah. And we have to trust that. Otherwise, by now, however many millions of years or however many thousands of you have been here,

it hasn't all gone up in smoke, has it? Because everyone thought by the year 2000, that would have been it, wouldn't it? Oh, yeah, do you remember that? The whole thing where they thought it was going to turn to like... Yes, and we have caused lots of disaster, lots of things, but we're still here. Yeah, yeah.

One foot in front of the other. Yeah. Greater good. And having a bit of faith. All the good stuff oh thank you so much ruby thank you sophie and now i think i'd like to make up on please i just want to sit in your chair and be pampered now i don't suppose that's an option That's why I fancy that. Oh, what a great conversation. Thank you, Ruby. It is lovely to speak to people who are at different stages.

So now hearing from someone who's now a grandparent, that's really cool. I hope I'm a grandparent one day. The problem with having quite a big family is I think I've put quite a lot of my kids off. The idea of having kids. My eldest is I think I've put quite a lot of my kids off the idea of having kids. My eldest is like, I'm not sure about that. Golly, sorry, I got distracted. It's absolutely pouring with rain out there.

August, schmorgust. Anyway, yes, a really good chat. And thank you for the generosity of wisdom there, Ruby. Thank you for the generosity of wisdom there, Ruby. Also, so nice to hear about people having relationships, you know, with their kids, like introducing a new partner when their kids are growing up and how that can have such a happy ending too. That's a cool thing. Obviously, as a girl with two step-parents, I appreciate these tales.

Anywho, what else is happening for me? So this weekend, I've got a couple of festivals I'm off to let me try and remember I'm doing camp festival again on Friday that'll be fun and then on Sunday I'm somewhere oh no on Saturday rather I'm doing torchlight and the significance of that is I was supposed to do it last year and I had to postpone it so I'll have to pull out all the stops to make it special. It was very unusual of me to have to postpone it, but it was just circumstantial.

But I will be there with bells on this weekend. And obviously same for Camp Festival. I always put bells on. Bells, ribbons, sequins, tassels, you know me. Too much is never enough. But yeah, I'm just having such a nice summer. So if you've been present at any of these festivals, thank you. This weekend, I'm bringing my teenager. I'm bringing Kit and a pal.

So let's hope we have some fun in the sun. That'd be preferable. And then I guess we're kind of getting near to the end of the summer season. There's still a few more festivals, but it's kind of dwindling. I feel like it's been pretty busy. I'm just hoping I've left a few festivals I haven't done so I can do some next year because I do bloody love them. They're really good fun and I love the unexpected thing of it. Will people come and watch me? But also I hope

there's some people in the crowd who aren't sure about me. I quite like the challenge of trying to you know make sure people stick around and finish watching my set. I'll do my best god damn it. Anyway have a lovely week and if you're coming to torchlight camp festival see you there and if you're not see you soon i hope all right lots of love thanks to claire jones for producing ella may for the artwork richard for editing ruby hammer for being such a gorgeous guest most of all you it's been lovely to spend some time with you.