Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 105: Suzi Ruffel

Episode Date: September 4, 2023

Suzi Ruffell is a writer and stand up at the top of her game, playing to packed audiences at her comedy gigs and with numerous TV appearances on panel shows. She also has two podcasts - 'Like Minded Friends' with Tom Allen and 'Out' showcasing gay success stories.  She uses her personal experiences of being ADHD, of having anxiety and of being the parent of a toddler, in her act. It's important for her to share the joys of family life, she says, because as a gay teenager she thought she might not get to be a mum, as she just didn't see other gay women with children, either in the media or in real life.Suzy told me about how she's changed the way she works since becoming a mum. We also agreed toddler tantrums are quite funny. And Suzi confessed her daughter often tells her she's not funny. I beg to differ!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello. Oh, are you feeling a bit back to school? Oh my God, I'm feeling so back to school. I've got such a big year. I know I've already told you about this but um I've got Mickey my youngest starting reception uh my seven-year-old's just starting year three

that's fine uh my 11-year-old starting secondary school my 14-year-old starting GCSE and my 19-year-old is um well he's starting a foundation at uni and he's also going to be moving out quite soon he's going to move down the road in with my mum. I think that's quite smart. Do you like it? Basically, she lives on her own now. Sonny will be able to live with her and they can both keep an eye on each other and they're really close.

And for me, it's a bit of a like soft moving out. Like I don't want him to leave the house but he's only with my mum 10 minutes away. So he gets a bit of independence. I get his bedroom back. This will be very useful and um I think it'll be good for him even though oh I'm gonna miss having him under my roof but anyway what that means is big year for the Joneses and I recently got down we got these

massive bags of uniform where I've basically just chucked uniform since dot all the way up to you know finishing secondary and they're massive heavy bags those big kind of like you know like those laundry bags zip up laundry bags so I pulled those down from the attic and I managed to get rid of a few bits that I think I can move on to other places or uniform that won't go anywhere for my kids anymore wrong color that kind of thing and worked out what everybody needs, and then Mickey was so excited about his new uniform that he wore it for like a week solid, he doesn't start school until the middle of September, but he was really excited, and yeah, I'm at that funny bit, I'm sure you get to if you've got small people in your house, where I am looking forward to going back to school, but

I also feel a bit sad about it, because I like, I like having them all around, and oh, I don't miss doing the school run, and I've got to do it tomorrow. Anyway, blah-de-blah-de-blah. How's everything with you? Everything is kind of coming to an end with this festival season for me as well. I've got one this weekend or yesterday, as it will be for you if you're hearing this on Monday. And then I've also got one final one next Friday.

And then that's it. I'm done for this summer. That's the end of my festival season. And then weirdly, I've started to think about the Christmas tour because I've got to get all that sorted. And also, I just want to sort my house out a bit. I just feel like it needs a good sort out. Anyway, it's all good.

It all feels sort of creeping towards autumn. Where's the year gone? I'm sure I feel like that every year. This week's podcast guest was an absolute delight. I had Susie Ruffell, a comedian, come over to my house. And if I do say so myself, I got on like a blooming house on fire. I really loved her company. She's smart, she's funny, she's interesting. It was just a really good chat chat so I think you're in for a treat and I'm looking forward to hearing it back I didn't know her at all I knew she was lovely my mum had worked with her on something and if my mum says someone's lovely it often

turns out to be true and yeah I just thought she was really brilliant person interesting and I'm also just probably like you know any of us that don't do it completely intrigued at the idea of stand-up probably though not in the way that most people might think i think for a lot of people the idea is doing stand-up is a complete um anxiety attack i actually would quite like the idea to the extent and i'm pretty sure i've said this to susie and i chat to the extent where if i'm watching... This is weird, by the way. If I'm watching stand-up, I'll prepare a joke just in case, like... I suppose it's a bit like, you know,

if there's a medical emergency on a plane and they go, is there a doctor in the house? I feel like if there's a medical emergency or some kind of disaster on stage at a comedy gig, they might say, can anyone step in last minute? And I'm ready. I've got some very, you know, some material that I feel will appeal to the broad demographic.

I'm ready. I'm so ready. My band, who have to watch me sometimes stroll back and forth at the front of the stage doing said potential stand-up, would probably say, just stick to music. But, you know, you might sometimes be, someday be in like comedy club and suddenly it's like we need an emergency comedian and and i'll hop up it would be such a disaster but anyway that's that's what my thoughts are with that so listen

uh let's listen to this while i'm listening i'm going to continue what i'm doing which is sorting out uniform for tomorrow for one who's starting school, sorting out gig outfits. I've got a really cool thing I'm doing tomorrow evening. I'm going to Blackpool to turn on the illuminations. I know. And Kat from my management sent me over a list of everybody who's ever done it. And let me tell you, I am joining history. goddammit. Everyone from Kermit the Frog to Red Rum, the Grand National winning horse, to Blue. They've all turned on the lights. And then on that Wikipedia page, little old me,

right there for 2023. And I love Blackpool. And I love things that look pretty in the night sky. So I think the Blackpool Illuminations are going to give me a lot of wow factor tomorrow. Plus I went to visit it when I was a kid, so it's got that nice nostalgia for me. So yeah, a nice weekend awaits.

I'm just working out what to wear for that. I'm planning my weekend a little bit. I've got a couple of gigs after that, but life is good, chugging along. And yeah, probably I'm looking forward to getting a little bit of quiet in the daytime so I can actually get things done. Anyway, on the other side it's lovely to have you back with me for podcast sorry it wasn't on last week it was bank holiday Monday

and we just took a break all right see you in a bit bye It's so nice to meet you, Susie. And actually, I think I should have pressed record from the moment you came in because we basically almost chatted through everything. Yes, we have. We hit the ground running from the moment you came in. I'm very excited to be here in your house, which is full of good stuff.

That's kind. I think it is. No, I really like... Firstly, I really love your decor and then there's just knickknacks everywhere, which is making me think like, I reckon I could leave with some of it and you wouldn't realise.

I would have no idea for so long. And if you want, I could probably just fill a bag before you leave. No, the thing is, it's funny when you like stuff that's like little itty bitty nonsense like I do,

because most of it I've bought myself, like eBay or Carboots or something. And sometimes people will do this thing going, oh, I saw this and thought of you. And generally speaking, it doesn't quite slot in. People think they know your style and they're like, so I will then put it somewhere on the shelf, like in amongst all the other frippery. And then I sometimes think, like for you coming here, if you latch onto that one item, you might have a totally different idea of me from the thing that someone else thought I would like that I don't like that I've just put on a shelf. Right. Is that too complicated? No, no. If anything, it's not complicated enough.

It turns into my paranoia. No, there's nothing that has sprung out that I think, it works for me. Yeah. It works for me. I'm not saying it would work for everyone, but for me, it really works. It is a lot. And I'm sort of surrounded by it as you're looking at me. Yeah, I like it.

I want to really give the listener, I'm seeing little dolls. I'm seeing a man and a woman that are maybe made out of china. I really like those. I like those guys. They seem nice. Is that a baby sham deer? Maybe? little babe is that a baby sham deer maybe yeah that's a couple of dolls but they don't look haunted which is my biggest issue with dolls a lot of mine do though come on oh i could show you what about the little one in the raincoat oh yeah she's terrifying extraordinary i mean who made that and the mouseketeer in the sort of crumbling box yeah you kept her in her crumbling box she's desperate to get free when the door closes at night and all

the toys come out to play she's stuck in the box it's a nightmare well actually there was one doll I did have to remove because the kids were like we actually think that one is haunted have you seen that film what's it called Annabelle about I haven't seen it but I know the one you mean I mean don't watch it it's horrific um but it is terrifying but i'm a real wimp so that's probably why i think i am quite too but i think that's partly what i like about it is there's like a safe kind of fear with a lot of the things oh because you're like oh well i know the doll so like she wouldn't kill me like so if she's here she's kind of protected okay i'm really seeing into it's great to spend time with Sophie Ellis-Bexley.

You really get... You're not expecting all of it, but it's really good to know. I've also, before you leave, I'll be going to the kitchen, I've also got a framed photograph of all my children's hair when they went back to school after lockdown. I don't think I was quite aware of what I sent them in looking like. There's one example on the top of the... Oh, yeah.

It's a lot of hair. That's a lot of hair. It's sort of a Mick Hucknall vibe. But I won't pass that on to him. No, please don't, please don't. Just sort of big ginger curls. Yes, lots of it. It was very dense by the time

we finally took him to a hairdresser again. I think it's a good look. I think you should have stuck with it. Just to sort of avoid the further analysis of what I collect and why. How are you? I'm very well. I'm very well. I'm very excited to be here to meet you and to do the podcast because as I said to you I've been listening to it for a long time. Which is so lovely. It's always nice when you get asked to do a podcast you like isn't it? Well that's the dream I would say and I ask quite selfishly what what drew you to it because it'd be interesting for me to know that because I'm a mum I think because all I already I've seen you a couple of times at different festivals over the years and I was I was at that teenage point uh when uh Murder on the Dance Floor came out so I think you you you loomed quite large in sort of my my of understanding of pop as a young-ish person. And so I think that, and I listened, and I watched Kitchen Disco in lockdown.

Oh, yes. So I think that... Strange days. I think that an algorithm went for you, and I said, thank you, and then started listening. And so, yeah, I think, and I've had, I know a few people that have been on the show. And so, yeah, and I think as well, I'm really interested in how other mums are doing it yes me too endlessly actually yeah because I think yeah I I constantly think I I'm often in a place where I'm like I'm smashing this oh I'm fucking everything up like I it's it's not very

I'm allowed to swear right? Yeah yeah absolutely Bollocks Just because I can but I feel like I'm quite rarely am I like I'm in the middle and I'm chugging along it's either like I'm really doing great at this look at me

look at me in this soft play centre smashing it being the funnest mum here or I'm like oh god I'm on tour I feel terrible I've just left and she's crying saying don't go mumma no tour no tour So you've got to that stage We've just left and she's crying saying, don't go, mama, no tour, no tour.

So you've got to that stage. We've got to that stage. That's quite tough, isn't it? When they start articulating that, no, don't, no, leave. Or having an idea of days away. Like, when are you back? Is it tomorrow morning?

Yeah, all those things. And so it's, yeah, I'm constantly fascinated. And it's something that I talk to a lot of my friends and mums as well about like, how do you know that you're not screwing them up? Well, I think... And I've come to you for the answer, so... Well, what I would say is I think if you're asking yourself that, it means you're not, really.

Yeah. Because from what I can see, the people that are doing more damage aren't thinking at all about how their child's feeling about any of it. I think if you're engaged in what they're seeing and feeling about what you're doing, it probably means you care enough to be doing the right stuff most of the time. And I have learnt as well that good enough is where you're aiming for, actually. You don't need to go above and beyond that.

At least that's what I've told myself in the last 20 years. No, I think you're right. I think you're right because I think that otherwise it becomes unachievable. Yes. It's the same with work. I've had like this real, in the last, it's actually since I've become a mum and since like sort of lockdown finished and then she's three now and it was probably in the last 18 months.

We've recently moved. We moved down to Brighton to have a bit more space and to be a bit further away from everything in a way and I had this real sort of epiphany about work and maybe you've experienced similar things at some point or another where I had to sort of go do you know what if this what I'm doing right now isn't enough I don't know that anything will ever be enough um it was like a conversation I was having with my therapist where she was like you've got a really good career you're doing really well and I was like oh yeah but like my friends are doing this and someone's doing that and like and just

that idea that like of constantly striving for like whatever that next thing is even if you don't quite know what it is you're like oh I must do another thing I must be this person or I must be that person and actually just going oh this great. I'm doing the thing. I've got the job. I've got the job and I've got the job hopefully forever. And it's the same thing with being a mum. It's like, oh, I've got my daughter and I've got my wife and we're this little unit that are chugging along

and we're all enough. And it was a real sort of, as I said, therapy moment of going like, oh, okay, I don't need to be perfect I don't need to be all the things that I've at some point during my 20s I went you need to have this thing and that thing and the other thing and just sort of going oh yeah this is great yeah I think as well particularly in work like ours where you're quite, you have to be your own cheerleader for a lot of it. And you're so encouraged to be at the beginning bit, to be looking for the opportunities. And look, there's only, you know, one slot for this.

And this is this is what something that we good for you to get. And then it all is all make or break with. I didn't get it, but that person did. And oh, oh, this time I did get it. But OK, now the next thing, like the Jacob's's ladder thing if there's always the run yeah totally above you and sort of getting yourself out of that feeling is it's really good to um consciously stop that because I think the older you get the worse look that is yes on yourself anyway about comparison and totally where you're supposed to be is it in the music industry does it feel like it feels less like it now certainly but certainly when I was coming through as a stand-up it felt

like there was like the girl that did the job there was lots of boys that did the job but then there was like one girl that got to do this show one girl that got to do you're nodding yeah yeah because I think that that's an interesting thing as well of going like well girls there can only be one of you yeah so and I think it's it has changed now but certainly there was a time when getting onto like a panel show was totally impenetrable I just couldn't get even though I was having great gigs and doing really well I just it was like we've got four girls that do them that's enough so true and I think also because my mum was working as a tv presenter and she would talk about it as I was growing up and about how, like, it was like a pyramid. So the further along you went in terms of how old you were,

the smaller the bank of women that would be the people that they would go to for those jobs. Yes, totally. So it gets narrower and narrower. So, like, if you're, like, in the 50-plus category, it's these women, and if you're in the 60-plus, it's those two. Yes. And there's one that we use at 70.

If she's busy, we won't make the show. We'll forfeit the show so yeah I think it's funny though because someone yesterday actually was talking to me about opportunities I get older I'm in my 40s now and I just turned 44 last week and he was saying oh you know how do you feel about the opportunities changing as you get older and I said actually the thing I didn't realize when I was younger is I now feel quite oblivious to that because the things I'm looking to do and the things that I'm noticing in my world have have shifted as well they've evolved as well and I think when I was younger it was all about being super relevant and being in that like heady hot flush of all the big things that could be happening and then there's a whole world beyond that and a way to have a career and keep

feeling satisfied that's I probably would have felt a bit sorry for myself when I was younger looking forward to it yeah when you get there you're like oh no this is great I really like it thank you yeah and it's about that balance isn't it because I mean the podcast is called spinning plates but it's about like you for every job that you take there's like not a forfeit but there's there's something that comes with it there's a sliding scale where you go well if I you know I was asked to go abroad and do like a month of shows and it would have been you know four years ago I would have jumped at the chance I was like knocking on that door and then of course the door swings open when I'm like yeah I don't want to I'm sure it'd be fun it

might be nice for my career I might get to do some tv, I don't want to. I'm sure it'll be fun. It might be nice for my career. I might get to do some TV abroad. I don't know how much that's going to change my life. You also kind of learn that sometimes those things dangled in front of you might not lead to the things that people tell you they're going to. Yes. Because you've sort of learned that a little bit as well. Yeah, totally. Because you become, I think, better the longer that you're in any industry,

I'm sure. But for me, I've certainly got better at going well I'm just going to do you know people will say well if you do that gig you might get onto that show you might if you do that show you might get onto that show and then if you get in that show you might host that show and if you might host that show you might get your own tv series and for a long time I sort of as you said with the Jacob's Ladder like you'd constantly feel like you were going up but then actually and it was actually my friend Romesh who said this which I which I found, Ramesh Ranganathan, the stand-up, which I found so useful when he was like,

you've got to just play the thing that's in front of you. Don't try and play the thing to get to the next thing. Just do the thing that's in front of you and do it well. And that was so eye-opening to go, oh, yeah, that makes so much sense. I don't know why I sort of created this sort of like internal talk of going, you've got to get here and then you've got to get there and you're on this treadmill. And, you know, you've got to do it by the time you're this age because of, you know, that bank that you're talking about, you know.

I want to be the one woman that's 70 that's still on stage. That's the dream. But it's, yeah, it's, I don't know what question you asked. And we've really gone around about that. I think we're just chatting now great I think as well it's like um sort of leading from what Romesh said I think it's also about getting the most fun and pleasure from where you're at because actually that does kind of um I mean we talk a lot about authenticity but actually if you are totally engaged and getting a lot of joy out of where you're at, it automatically becomes something that leads into other things anyway.

Or if it doesn't, then you would just really love doing it and feel more resolved, I guess. Yeah, that's the thing. I think some stand-ups get into stand-up to get onto telly, to do maybe presenting or to have a sitcom, which are things that I'm sure would be fun and I'm sure I'd enjoy if I did them. But for me, it's always been about the stand-up

I love being a stand-up nothing gives me more joy than being on stage with a live audience it's my thing and that's what you're doing at the moment right? and that's what I do but you're on tour right now yeah right now so I was in Manchester a couple of nights ago

tonight I'm in Brighton you've got a gig tonight? yeah that's cool yeah sure I don't know why I thought you'd leave like a whole day run up to prepare oh no I have about 20 minutes of going uh yeah I'm ready just on your own in the dressing room doing my makeup quite methodically I'm the same the makeup thing is

what gets me into the right headspace yeah and then I'll iron my little show shirt I have quite jazzy shirts for shows and so I'll iron my show shirt and it'll be and then i've got a really like upbeat playlist oh cool you listen to music yeah so i've got when i was at the edinburgh festival i used to count have work out how long the journey was between my uh so when you do the edinburgh festival for those don't know you do 26 nights on the bounce uh an hour every night and uh hope for the best. And where I was living, I would always have exactly the right amount of songs

to get me to the door of the venue. That's cool. And so it would be stuff that would build up. So I think the first one was Call Me Al, Paul Simon. Nice. And then maybe a couple of Queen songs. Cool. And then maybe a Dolly Parton thrown in.

Excellent. Just stuff that would like make me feel like I'm going to have a great one but I'm also going to have fun. That's so cool. So yeah, it gave you a little little sass in your walk.

Yeah, like a little boost. Yeah. And then I also learnt a way where I knew I wouldn't bump into any other stand-ups because the last thing you need is someone telling you that they've just had a great show.

No way. That's no, I don't want to hear that either. Or saying something like have you had loads of critics in? You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just like, did you see CeeCee Ruffalo crying in a bin?

Yeah. And so it's, yeah, so I, yeah, I have to sort of like boost myself up. I find music is like, I can wake up some mornings being like, am I a bit depressed? And then I put on some good music and I'm like, oh no, I'm fine. I just, it just lifts me. Isn't that incredible how music can do that? It's my tonic as well, actually. And I think I can picture you.

Got a gig. Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, I've got, but yeah, it's, it is the thing. It's the thing for me. I love it. So can you describe for me a little bit about what it feels like? What is the love when you're on stage like that? So can you describe for me a little bit about what it feels like? What is the love when you're on stage like that? So I think it's about, for me,

it's about sort of like complete ownership of who I am. So I think I'm gay and growing up, that would have made sense, Ellie, because I think I said I had a wife. Growing up, I really had to sort of hide parts of myself. I was very scared to come out. I probably knew I was gay from when I was about 14. I didn't come out until I was 21. And so that's like seven years of like, don't be you.

Whatever you do, don't be you. And so because of that, I think that I love being, I mean, it's authentic, isn't it? It's a word you used before, but like being totally myself on stage, totally unapologetically and talking about stuff, not specifically talking about being gay, but talking about things like having anxiety, having, I used to have a routine called the 3am press conference when I'd go through all the things that come into my head at 3am when I can't sleep.

And I often think that people laughing is them saying, me too. It's them saying, yeah, I'm the same. Or laughing and going, oh, you do that. Yeah. And that's the thing with stand-up. And I'm sure it's the same with live music. Like, those specific gigs will only happen once. Those people will be in.

And obviously with stand-up, you often chat to the crowd. You'll be like, okay, so you've got children. How's it going? like those specific gigs will only happen once those people will be in yeah and obviously we stand up you often chat to the crowd you'll be like okay so you've got children what's that how's it going like you know different bits and bobs that uh that happen in the gig that will never happen again yeah little bits of crowd work little bits of fun back and forth someone doing a funny laugh a setup and then everyone laughing at the fact that they've laughed at the setup because they can see where something's going or they're assuming something all that stuff makes it feel really live and really exciting

and the thrill of doing stand up is I can, on the way home today I could think of a thing I actually thought of a thing on the way here where I thought I wonder if I'll say that tonight, I woke up with a really achy shoulder and I thought I know that I'm this isn't a bit but I thought I bet I could write a bit about the fact that I know that

I'm 37 because I can injure myself just by sleeping like once upon a time it would have been like what did you do I was in a mosh pit or like I was hammered and I fell down the stairs like now it's like oh I slept hard like that's how I hurt myself and I thought oh so and I could just try that on stage tonight and see if it works and there's a real thrill about you know I often write my stuff at the kitchen table of being like oh I've written this at my kitchen table today and then you go on stage tonight and the audience go yeah or they go no that's just you then you have to go oh okay I won't say that again well there's so much of what you're saying I really identify with because

I think of gigs my gigs like a date and you've got that kind of it's a two way street really like and you've got like the first few minutes where you kind of

slightly suss out the mood yes and my goal is always to get to the same place by the end right okay we've got to feel like

we've all formed together this sort of community of like yay but sometimes it's easy you can walk out and they're like right and you're like oh great this is the wind's in the right of like yay but sometimes it's easy you can walk out and they're like right and you're like oh great this is the wind's in the right direction yes right other times it's like okay i'm gonna show you how you can trust me and how you can trust i've got

this because there's an awkwardness in watching someone on stage isn't there i feel like that when i'm in the crowd i can be like oh god for that person yes so i want to reassure them that like it's fine i've got this you be don't worry about you your reaction can come when you're ready I'll just take us there but I was thinking as well like for a lot of people you speak to about stand-up they must go oh my god that's my worst nightmare but actually for me the longer I've been doing my shows the more stand-up is part of it so So when you said about the shoulder, I'm like, feasibly, I could have done the same thing. Have it.

I'll be like, oh, that funny thing happened. I'm definitely going to mention that on stage. Great. I do quite long schticks now. Oh, I'm... She's going to alarm you. Feel free to sing a song in yours. I do yours, actually.

Is it Kevin and P mprs that's fine live doesn't have to actually i don't think or maybe it does i can't remember i'm not very good at paperwork side of it but yeah i'll um i normally as a sort of a jump point i'm not giving you advice here by the way this is just what i do i'll find out some really quirky facts about where I am. Oh, you're a stand-up. You're a stand-up parading as a pop star. Oh, my God. I love it, though. I really love it.

I love the chat. Why don't you start doing stand-up? Because, well, first of all, I don't think there's that much material. I think it's like a few minutes. I'm looking around your house. Like, I think you're quirky. I reckon you've got material in there.

You've just got to find it. Do you know something? When I watch people do stand-up, I've i've watched stand up for a long time i used to live in camden and there was always loads yeah yeah yeah and i always have this thing where i feel like at any time if i'm looking if the comedian and i lock eyes at the right time i might quantum leap into their body so i've always got a joke ready just just in case you're just like i find myself god the next stand-up's not here oh my god there's sophia lesbeck's maybe she could do do you have a set yeah yeah i can do a set i'm always like what is it what do i start with i think that i think that you're a secret stand-up i think it's scary but i also think i do like that thing of the heightened sense and i do think the

more you flex that muscle the better you get you've had all the bad stuff happen you've had the dire gigs you've had the awkward heckles you've had the joke full flat

and then you're like okay it's time what happens next fine I get up you know I get up the next day

whatever happens you know it doesn't I think once upon a time when you really knew it stand up the highs are unbelievably high like the first time that you get to do at stand-up, the highs are unbelievably high. Like the first time that you get to do like a 10-minute spot and you smash it in a proper club.

Like for the next three days, you know, I felt like I was like, you know, I was like, I've served stand-up. I'm so good. Like, you know, I was on such a high. Not being arrogant. Not even telling anyone. But like walking around with a spring in my step. Like, oh, my God, I'm amazing at this. This is so great.

And then, of course, like three days later, you'll do the exact same material in a different room. For some reason, you don't quite click with them. You bring on an unusual energy. Something's happened or they have a weird energy. Someone's done a set before you which was, you know, not great or whatever. And then you do the same set and it dies. And then I would feel terrible for three days. Whereas now it's like good gig, bad gig, yeah.

Like, obviously, when you. Like obviously when you're professional and when you're touring, you're more likely to have lovely shows. But I think the bad ones hurt me less and the amazing ones will be like a high for like 20 minutes. And how much is that to do with experience and getting older and how much is it to do with feeling sort of content and your own natural world you've built around you maybe 50 50 ah yeah I think I think that I know

that I don't think that everyone will like my stand-up and I'm fine with that for a long time I really wanted to be everyone's favorite but you can't be you know to be someone's favorite you have to be someone's least favorite that's how it works yeah what about the fact that it's quite something you do on your own a lot and you spend a lot of time in your own company yeah it can be quite lonely uh something that I've noticed more since having a family sort of you know that sort of longing to get home and to be there for breakfast or you know when they're having dinner and I'm like no I'm having a Nando's yeah you know um and it's yeah I think that it's you

know you get you get better at doing stand-up so I know that I'm for people that like the kind of comedy that I do I know that I'm good but uh touch wood uh but I think that I there's a contentment in my life outside of comedy there was a period where comedy was like my best friend. About eight years ago, I had a terrible breakup and I was a real mess. And stand-up was, I was still funny and I felt like I'd lost everything apart from being funny. Like my friendship group shifted somewhat.

We were living together, so like she moved out and then like a friend moved in, which was great, but like it was different. And I just felt like I didn't know who I was because we've been together for a while I sort of thought at the time that that might have been like the big relationship and it wasn't and I didn't know who I was I didn't know who I was or what to do I didn't know even know like what to wear like I just yeah, yeah, really all over the shop. But I still had funny. And it was, I was so grateful to stand up.

And I would go on stage and talk about how shit my day had been and being dumped and everyone would laugh. And then I realised like, oh, that's because we've all had these experiences. Yeah, everybody's experienced that, yeah. Like it's really normal to have your heart broken. And then that's the great thing about stand-up, is that it can be really cathartic. And I mean, you know, watching someone all performing it,

where, you know, it's like love songs. You know, it's something that everyone can relate to. And so in those moments, stand-up was everything. And then when I met Alice, my wife, for the first few years of our relationship, it did all sort of have to fit around my career. I was still at the stage where I was, my wife, for the first few years of our relationship, it did all sort of have to fit around my career. I was still at the stage where I was, you know, I was doing a little of tours and I was occasionally doing bits of telly and our relationship had to sort of fit around that.

And then when we decided that we wanted to be parents and we began that journey into becoming mums, Alice sort of said to me, she was like, I'm'm like family has to be the thing now not in a horrible way but you know it was a important conversation that we had to have where it was like she was like you know I don't I I we can't our lives can't all fit around your job now which I think is really important is a real leveler so uh working out how my family come first, but then I still get to do a job that I love and still get to give it as much as I want to is like an ongoing plate spin. Yes, well, yes, it does continue in that way.

But I was thinking about this because when I had my first baby, I didn't know I was going to have a baby. But obviously, if you're in a same-sex couple, you've got to have those conversations. And I was thinking for a lot of relationships that must actually be a real positive thing because you've actually taken it on with like your eyes wide open in terms of the dynamic shift yeah a lot of conversations you

wouldn't have if it was just a kind of no I think we did yeah I think we did like a lot of those chats which were really which now have been really beneficial like like about what we wanted and what we needed. We were sort of like, for example, for me, I said to Alice, I occasionally need a pat on the head. I know that's sort of quite embarrassing, but I don't mind admitting it. And I need someone to be like, you're doing well, you're doing great.

I love things like that. Yeah, I love praise. After I've done a TV show, I literally walk up to my agent and she's like, well done, it right and I was like thank you thank you treat yeah like it just was because I there's you know her opinion and my wife's opinion and a handful of other people they're the people that I really care about and so I need them to tell me that I've done well and then I sort of believe it myself oh my god yeah I definitely need that yeah there's any shame in that no but I think I feel like you know I don't know if it's very girl bossy which I'm not trying to be no but they're people you care about yeah and it's about

giving you that feeling like that sort of I feel like I've got people around me and so long as everything is right with where we're at I don't really need to know about anyone else exactly that yes I don't think that's I don't think that means that I've got a weakness in myself I think that means that there's a a respect and a love in those relationships yes yes and she think it's so I see it as a good thing like that yeah and I think it's good to know what you need definitely and actually it's funny you say that with regard to your wife and you because I think when Richard is if he's finding something tricky I'll be doing lots of that kind of talk but actually he doesn't really need that from me. Yeah. But I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm like, tell me I'm doing really well. Tell me I'm great. Yeah, totally, totally. Well done for this. I'm like, so like if he, I don't know, something little like, he'll take the bins out and I'll go like, well done for doing that. I don't, I would love that back.

I love it. Well done for emptying the dishwasher. I like it. Yeah. Really, I'm very simple. Do you want a sticker chart? I would be happy with that I'm a very simple creature

in that regard oh me too yeah like pat me on the head yeah give me a chocolate bar tell me I've done well yeah well I think as well it's probably why we both

find ourselves going on stage because it's a funny thing to want to need that yeah like there's got to be a reason why you've stood up in front of a room full of people

going do you think I'm great because you've half got to have the confidence trick of thinking there's a reason why I'm stood up here right now and I'm going to present something, but also please really like me for it. Yeah, of course. I didn't have enough friends when I was growing up. And now people laughing at me is them going, we like you. And me going, thanks, they were wrong, right? There's a teenage part of me that's still in there.

That's so true. I feel like that too. And also, with my limited experience with stand-up, I've made everything... No, no, you're a stand-up comedian. I won't have it any other way. My band might disagree. They sometimes are like, start the next song. Are you doing it over a riff?

Are you doing a bit like a lounge act, which I'd love. Well, when I started, I didn't speak at all. In between songs, if something was going wrong, I'd just tell like a knock-knock joke or something. Oh, wow. But I think I realised that... I think telling a knock-knock joke is more confident than actually doing a bit.

That's like, I'm going to do a joke joke. But then I've realised that the thing I like about the humour and making a joke is it relaxes me. Yeah. And it stops the pretense of me needing to feel like I'm some sort of, you know, presenter of the night. I'm like, let's just break the ice, break the tension. Let's just be in on something.

Also, it makes people feel like you're human and you're a person and it's an experience that we're all having together rather than just watching something. Yeah. So I do that quite early on make a joke but but now it's got to the point where I'll like literally like mic in hand like walking up and down the stairs oh I love that for you I love it please can I see if you still think no yes I'm there you're gonna be like it was lovely the song sounded great no no I think I'd love it even if

you just pretend to laugh I'll be happy happy. Oh, either way I'll laugh. I was actually hearing that since you've become a mum, you've changed the way that you tour. Yes. This is very interesting to me. So you do two nights on and no more than two nights on, is that right? So with being a touring stand-up, touring isn't the only job that I'm doing at the moment.

I'm writing stuff and I've got different different things in different levels of development for telly I've got a couple of podcasts so there's always different uh work that I have on so I've always got my days sort of filled with bits and bobs but I've said bits and bobs more times on this podcast than any other time in my life I wonder what's bringing that yeah I don't know and and I uh but once upon a time with touring I'd be like doing like four or five nights or I'd just be like you know I'd do maybe two tour shows but then I'd be up in Liverpool so I'd do a weekend there as well or go and close a show somewhere which you know which is really fun and a really fun way to work but then as soon as this tour that I'm doing now is sort of the first proper tour that I'm doing since since we've become mums and so I I said to my agent who is

enormously uh supportive and also has a child and is in and has a child a similar age to mine and we sort of get each other she's looked after me since uh I think like for about 12 years I think she signed me when I had about 10 minutes of material so she has watched me go from you know the open spot to the to the opener to the closer to you know doing first little breaks on telly to hosting live at the Apollo to doing my own tours to doing specials you know she's been there through all of it and she really got it I was just like I just don't want to be away loads so I the tour sort of yeah I might do two or three tour shows a week uh the most I'll do is two nights away and then I might do a third night of the tour but then we'll drive back through the night so that I'm there in the morning and like I'm a bit tired

but I'm still there but because certainly at this point and like you've got so much experience with like different ages of children but she's three and I only we're only going to get her at three once and I you know it won't be long until she's at school and then she'll have maybe activities after school or hobbies and now's the bit it feels for me where I can go and pick her up from nursery early and we can go and have an ice cream on the beach and we can get that time where it's just me and her and it feels really special, or just the three of us. And I try and get as much of that time as possible because I think that I had to just get to a place

where I would trust that my career would still be there if I put my family first. And I still love my job. I love being a stand-up. I get such joy. I get such joy from it. And I'm so delighted that so many people come and see me. It's amazing.

It's like, it's my dream. I love it. But I've got to trust that it's still there if I'm mama for a bit. Yeah. And I think we're so lucky, both us that we also get we get that release from our work but also that you can put experiences into your work yeah for sure because you've been talking a little bit about you still call it the baby I call it the baby yeah I see it capital t

capital yeah that's right the baby the baby it's because my dad calls her the baby but my dad's like a geyser my dad goes the baby and i think it sounds like she's like a low-ranked gangster like look at the baby look at the baby also at three that is literally what they are what the job description is exactly it's like you're tiny boss person yeah uh you're the epicenter of the world yeah yeah we're both a little bit of frightened of you and our day is totally dictated by your mood. Oh, my goodness, yeah. I mean, my youngest has turned four, but he's, like, branching into anything that doesn't go his way. He just does this very sulky face.

He goes, you're so mean. Oh. You're so mean, Mama. And I actually showed him his face in a mirror and I said, this is starting to be the way that I think you just look all the time, Mickey. So he doesn't really care. He don't care, which is also part of that age as well. But how did you deal with your instincts

with how much or how little of parenthood you talked about with your set? I think that I don't talk about sort of the ins and outs of her. I think a lot of people are very... People ask a lot of questions about how queer families are made. And I think I don't need to... When you say people, you mean people at your gigs?

No, no, no. So I've got a routine about it where a woman in a bakery asked Alice and I where we got the sperm. And this is just a stranger just being like, hey babe, where'd you get the jizz? Like, which I just think is such a yeah really funny so I've made like a conscious decision not to talk about the ins and outs of

anything who carried like because everything happened during lockdown I just think it's not really anyone's business no and I like to keep it um you know, Alice is quite private. And she said to me, like, you know, you've got to understand that she might not be a show-off like you. She might not need people to laugh at her. She might be normal. Thanks, sweetheart. I love you. Bye. thanks sweetheart I love you

bye and and and so I don't I don't ever want to share too much of her

because I would hate for her one day to turn around to me and go why did you tell Jonathan Ross that about me I totally get that

actually and I think and I think it's up to different parents how they do it I was going to say it's totally bespoke actually your relationship

with that and also I you know I take great pleasure when people share pictures of their kids doing funny things and stories. But I think you have to take your own lead from it, don't you? And I don't want my kids feeling weird

about certain things as well. So also, you just realise that they're their own people. Let's see what they feel comfortable sharing. And some things are my side of the story. And that's what I share. And other bits of it, it's like, that's about you. Yeah. I've probably done a bit too much sometimes and i but i but i feel like it's always in relation to

me as a parent rather than you know i've got stuff about her having tantrums but it's my reaction to it yeah it's me trying to gentle parent someone that's screaming and robert dyers also that tantrums are really funny yeah i have a tendency before trying to resolve the issue of taking a very quick photo. Oh, great. I just find seeing them like starfish in a supermarket is endlessly funny. I've got a very good one of one of them in Waterstones by the door. Great.

They're just funny images. I saw a dad the other day. Small person just like... I saw a dad the other day carrying their child by like the back hook of their jeans. Out of soft play, just like, no, this is it. We're just going now. Oh, I've definitely done that.

I've done a kind of physical straitjacket on a plane. Yeah, oh. Where they wiggled free and punched a woman in the aisle next to where we were standing. Wow, on purpose? Yeah. Whoa. No, no, no, full practice.

Yeah, it was just a bad moment. It was still the worst flight I've ever done with the kids. My favourite as well as a story, story a family story is when my mum and my stepdad were taking my brother and sister on a family trip years ago now and they were at motorway services and they saw a dad lose his temper with his kids were misbehaving going this is holiday and you are ruining it so whenever anything's going a bit pear-shaped with us it was always like this is holiday and you are ruining it. I'll take that with me, thank you.

It's a good one, isn't it? I was thinking as well, because a lot of people would talk about, they ask me a lot, oh, are your kids musical? Do you want them to be musical? But I guess with humour, you are hoping that your daughter would have a good sense of humour. It seems like such a good indicator. Yeah, she often tells me I'm not funny. Of course. Which is hard.

You know, that's hard. She'll be like, Mum, I'm not funny. I'll be like, um... No, I can show you some evidence that I am. Actually, do you know what? Do you know, like,

you know this nice house? Actually, I am funny. Okay? Yeah? Alright? Have you heard of Edinburgh? Yeah. Have you heard of

the Apollos? Yeah. Okay. Actually, you know, I'm... Just, yeah. That's, um... But, yeah, I think that... have you heard of uh the live at apollo yeah okay so yeah actually you know just yeah that's um but yeah i think that i hope that she has a good sense of humor i'm sure she will she's already doing she'll like do a bit like she tries to make people laugh or she'll know that a funny thing to say or if she gets a laugh out of something she'll try and use that material again which

is something i do a lot um so, God, yeah. So it's... I hardly ever say a joke once. If it lands well. You've got to keep doing it. You're a stand-up. I don't know how... I don't know how... You're going to have to come out as a stand-up.

I do like me... Well, I think, actually, families have almost like a family currency. So it might be... Sometimes it can be leaning towards you know being intellectuals it could be towards being sporty there's a sort of currency yes doesn't have to be like all in for it i'm not saying it's an aggressive way but it's a sort of thing that you may be consciously or subconsciously just praise as a family or get excited or enjoy yeah and so here it's definitely

things like uh being a bit irreverent a bit silly the kids know if they can make me laugh we'll get around anything yeah so I put humor and being funny high up but I think it's such a skill for life like if you're someone that can laugh at yourself can laugh at a bad situation can find you know can find a bit of light on the dark days I think it's not just for someone that's like going to go into a career as a writer it's it's it's it's useful it is and it's also charming and it kind of can flip the script a little bit on perspective and just to help ease ease things a bit yeah i think you can find you know humor can be a gentle thing as well it doesn't have to be a big like

oh a hundred percent kind of a yeah absolutely and I think there's like a warmth to it me too me too which I really love but it's um but yeah so I think we're talking about it on stage I want to share you know share what we're talking about the warmth of it and the the joys of family life and I and I think it's important there was part of thought, oh, maybe I won't do any material about parenting. But then I thought, I think it's important for me to talk about, important for me, I'm not saying important sort of in a societal manner, but like important for me to talk about it, to talk about being a mum, talk about being a happy mum, talk about being, you know, my wife and I being the joys that we have. Because when I was growing up, and I say this on stage, like when I realised I was gay when I was 14,

I sort of thought I won't be a mum because I didn't know any gay mums. Like now I know that queer parents have existed for a long time. But then I thought, oh, well, that's off the table for me. That's not something that I get to be. And so whilst I'm sure loads of teenagers or older people that are growing up now that are coming out know that there's,

you know, that know that you can have babies in a whole host of ways. But, you know, it's important for me to stand on stage and say like, we did it and like it's working and we're happy and she's happy. And this is like a story of hope this is a story of we did it and I and and that's so important to me to share that side of it because I think that for the longest time I just I just didn't think that I'd get to be a mum I really didn't I didn't think

that it would be in my in my story and it was it was huge for Alice and I when we became mums it was massive it was yeah it was yeah it was everything yeah and I think also you're sort of paving the way for you know when your daughter grows up and as you said like the sort of perception and people that come and watch the show and take that away even if it's not the first thing they think of it's there yeah the paving stones for yeah people having really positive associations well exactly and I think as well like because I've done like you know my crowds I get like a lot of gay people in of course I'm sure you I bet you've got such a gay following haven haven't you? Yeah, it's really fun. I obviously get loads and loads of gay people in and I get loads of straight people in as well

because I do very mainstream TV. You know, I love the Apollo or QI or any of those last leg, those sort of big comedy shows that are on the telly, which means you get an amount of straight people in as well who are very, very welcome as well, of course. And I think it's important that, like, you know, certainly when I play places that aren't massive cities,

that don't have hugely diverse types of people, I'm sure they're there, but maybe not visible all of the time. I think it's important that, you know, people come and see me and go, oh, I like her and she's different to anyone that I know or I don't know anyone that's got a family like hers. But, oh, it's just like mine. She's experiencing the same things as what I'm experiencing or what my

mum experienced it's all the same and I think that's the thing that I've really tried to do with my stand-up is make it so that it's about sort of connecting and it doesn't matter how different we are it doesn't matter if we look different or if we're on a different spectrum with sexuality or any other thing. But we go, I feel like this. We all feel like this, right? Or like, do you have worries like this? Or do you have anxiety like this?

Am I the only woman in her 30s that thinks I've got ADHD? No, they'd be like a massive cheer. And so for me, that's the thing that is so instant about stand-up and is the thing that I love when I go and watch comics is that it feels... The first time I saw a stand-up talking about mental health and talking about being anxious, I found it so reassuring. I found it so reassuring.

And so I hope that the different things that I pick to talk about, whether it be about being a mum, whether it be about being sort of a gay person in the media whether it be about being anxious or any of these other things that are parts of who I am I'm hoping that by talking about them it's it's bringing sort of a positivity to it of like oh that's that's that's usual you know I kind of hate the word normal but you know like that's we're all feeling that and relatable exactly yeah and actually that's with that pretty much what i was hoping with the podcast as well with the conversations because i love talking about people from all these different walks of

life but then there's all these things that we're all feeling no matter how much you think someone else is just yes totally nailing it or exceeding things or whatever and i want to talk to you about your podcast because um so you've got two so when did you start the one with tom allen for no one tom allen i think we started about seven years ago we were really early that's like when podcast yeah it was like us and my dad wrote a porno oh yeah like a couple of others um and it's so tom allen fellow stand-up one of my best friends in the world we so we started it because we both didn't have enough work on and nowadays it's like a it's like a gymnastics exercise to try and find time in our diaries just find like half an hour to chat it's really so last night we did it at eight once he'd

finished a day of filming and i'd got back from a tour show and done bedtime um it's nice you're both you didn't have much work on and now you're both similarly busy exactly otherwise it'd be like well my diary is clear we can talk well there's certainly a point where tom went like up into the air and i was slightly twiddling my thumbs for a minute bit and then and then my cart came in and i got on i was like don't worry i'm coming but it was um so we do this podcast every week and it's half an hour of two friends catching up yeah it's lovely it's it's really gentle and it's quite funny and we talk about you know anything from like drag to soft furnishings to grief to sometimes bigger stuff.

Tom lost his dad about 18 months ago now and we did quite a few episodes about how he was going through it and like I said, should we pause for a month? He was like, no, I want to talk about this. And then we received hundreds upon hundreds of emails of people saying, oh, I found that really useful. It was really good to hear and to hear someone talking about it so openly and talking about how confusing lots of the sort of grief admin is because we've done

lots of different types of episodes and then we'll do like a correspondence episode which would be like all the things that people have sent in it's just stupid chit chat about things people have noticed or they or they want to talk about and uh and yeah so it's um so that's that one and then the other one out which you started actually in the same yes and i started yes absolutely yes and with that one i wondered if maybe that had a slightly more selfish reason for it i feel like with spinning plates is very selfish why i started it i was very nosy to hear about other people I wanted to have the experience of meeting lots of amazing people and talking about their lives but also I was I'm always still working out my relationship with work and motherhood and it's been a really good way of me actually getting lots of amazing

advice and and reassurance from lots of different people but that's what I found from listening to it I think it's really uh reassuring and so what was your. But that's what I found from listening to it. Oh, that's nice. I'm glad. I think it's really reassuring. And so what was your reason for starting out? So I think I started it for like the 15-year-old me. I don't know if she knows. She's probably busy at school. But quite often when you see queer people portrayed in the media, quite often a lot of the big shows will be like AIDS queer bashing something sad about lesbians someone will definitely die and then the lesbian will leave her partner for a man that's like a lot of the tropes of like not tropes because obviously there's really important stories and like you know those those stories are important to tell and obviously talking about

the AIDS crisis is really important but I often feel that when I consume queer media a lot of it is tinged with great sadness and I think those stories is important to tell but that can be a lot that like every time you like see a version of yourself on TV there's a sad story connected to it it's never just uh they fell in love yeah exactly it's the there's not really i think there's been one british lesbian rom-com ever which all lesbians know about but i don't think anyone else knows about that is oh what's it called you and me forever is it called something like that uh but it's quite like a small scale movie but there's not a lot i have heard i think they might film some of it around here i think that's right yeah yeah yeah um and it's there's not a lot of tv shows where you can turn it on and see a life like

mine analysis i don't think there's anything like that in the uk at the moment um there's some stuff from the states but quite often they'll get like two series and then it will get cancelled because they think there's not enough of an audience and I just really wanted to create something where I could share stories about us succeeding about life after coming out so it is called out and it's about uh being out but it is about sort of the next bit which is you know obviously there's ups and downs but it's about us succeeding about us loving about us having a job that we love about all those fears at school about us being you know ousted from society or not getting the job that you want or all the things that you think when you realize you're gay or certainly you know I can only talk about myself when I realized I was gay

I thought that my life was going to be limited by that I really believed that I thought I won't have a family I thought I wonder how my family would react I sort of knew in my heart of hearts they'd be fine but there was always part of me that thought oh god like is it going to change our relationship massively I thought I I went to drama school and trained to be an actress and I was sort of told at drama school like don't be out and so like I knew not to come out or they said like be bisexual because then then then you're castable both ways I'm actually quite shocked by that well it was sort of yeah it was you know about 15 years ago now but I think that's I think that any lesbian actress of my age would say that someone had said the same thing to them or told them stay in the closet for sure

and gay guys as well god that's so disappointing yeah it is and so there was i was always sort of i always thought that i would be limited by my sexuality i always thought it was a shame even when i was out i was like oh it's a shame like you know not you know i didn't really like that i was gay for a really long time and it was a real journey of like coming out i think had a lot to do with me doing stand-up with me being more myself on stage with people still liking me even though in spite of my gayness which now looking back I find really sad that like at 27 I was like oh they like me even though I'm gay you know it's really sad that I used to think that so I wanted to start out because I really wanted to start a podcast about like how great it can be to be gay about how the wonderful friends that i've got the incredible

careers that people can have you know i've interviewed actors politicians filmmakers musicians i've interviewed all sorts of people people that have won you know olympic gold medals you know all kinds of people that have that you know being gay hasn't held them back but it actually when they were truly being their authentic self it propelled them in a way you know it gave them an extra bit of vim because they could be who they were in the world and they weren't carrying this like backpack of shame that I felt like I had to carry for quite a long time and so I really wanted to just share those stories and it's been wonderful because um the episode hasn't come out yet but I've interviewed a guy called Ben Aldridge who's this

um British actor who's been in loads of things. He was in Fleabag. He was in loads of different British TV shows. And he wasn't in the closet as such, but he wasn't out. He was sort of known to his friends and stuff, known to his family, but he wasn't out in a public way. And a little while ago, he just thought, during the pandemic, he thought, I can't do this anymore.

He's like mid-30s, like, fuck it, I'm just going to come out. But he came out, then was like he got like hollywood all of a sudden got interested because they were like oh we want to cast gay guys as gay characters so now he's just done like a massive movie that was out in the cinema he's been in a movie with jim parsons and sally field played his mom like he's had this but it's because he was like oh i was that who knows whether those opportunities would have happened if he hadn't come out but him being himself has propelled his career and so often we're told that being different or certainly in the generation that I grew up in I was told that it was something that

I would have to sort of diminish yeah or apologize for yeah a little bit and so I started the podcast just to just say that if there is someone like me who is living in a town like Portsmouth, and I think Portsmouth is nice, but when I lived there, I used to think that it was very homophobic just because of the things I would hear in pubs and it didn't feel enormously diverse at the time. I think that it's really moved on now.

And there was probably a lot of it clouded by my own feelings at the time as well. But if someone is listening and they can feel hopeful after listening to an episode, that's more important than the telly and the money and all the things because it means that someone's gone oh I'm normal I'm like them and I would have loved to have someone said that to me at 15. Yeah I think it's an amazing thing and I think those conversations are really important and I was because the first I was thinking it's interesting because from my gay friends I can see

that for them there's almost like this sort of legacy they have to they look back all the people that have gone before them who have helped them live the life they have now and they feel like how can I pay for the next bit and I was thinking actually there's really no different as well when I think about I don't know what what women have done before me to make it so I have my freedoms I have now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Because at first I was like, oh, is that a big responsibility? I was like, well, you can engage as much or as little with those things as you want.

But actually, I do think, I just love the fact you're doing it because I think those conversations, as you say, there will be people who have plugged in and found voices that they will just take away with them for the rest of their life of things they've heard and making them feel empowered by it. I'm doing working women who happen to be mums, you're doing working people who happen to be gay. Yeah, exactly.

And all the positives. That's the thing, and just the fact that it's doable. Yeah, and also the honesty about it as well. So if you see someone where you think, well, they've got it sorted, they probably had 100% support and then you find out actually some of it was really challenging or difficult,

but this is how they worked around it. Yeah, and it's a journey to get to the stage where you feel like you've got it. Like it doesn't come overnight and that's what we've tried to share. And the interesting thing about the podcast is, there's, I'm sure you'll know, there's still 69 countries where it's illegal to be gay.

There's 11 where it's punishable by death. And so we have listeners in countries where it's illegal to be us. And I've had emails from people who, you know, say like, I'll never be able to come out. But what did they, they said that the podcast is the little bit of pride in their pocket. Which was just so sad but I'm so delighted that if all I can give them is that little bit the connection is still there

it's just the idea of this one life and then having to keep part of yourself out of it that would actually give you pleasure and love it's kind of unimaginable actually i think i've led a very luxurious life in that way and i think also you know with i was thinking about the experience of coming out if you're a teenager it must be so awkward even if you know it's going to

be well received because um if you're heterosexual you don't really have to address the bit when you become a sexual person, like in a conversation with your parents. You basically said, this is what turns me on. It's such a strange conversation. I mean, that would have been really awkward with my dad. Yeah. Even when I got pregnant at 24,

that was the first time, when I said I was pregnant, he went, so you've had sex then. That was the first thing when I said I was pregnant he went so you've had sex then that was the first thing he said to me and Richard I think he was like really shocked by the whole thing but he literally went so you've had sex then that was the first sentence out of his mouth and I said I was having a baby and presumably you had so that was embarrassing um so yeah it was yeah really like bizarre and then he started asking me. Then he turned to Richard.

We had only been out a very short time, like six weeks. And he said, Oh, wow. And where did you go to school again? He actually lost the plot, my dad, for a good 10 minutes and then backed out of our flat, waving bye-bye and then drove away. He was like,

Oh, I know you're not married, but you'll have to have a ceremony with your brothers and sisters being flower children. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was really... The next time you saw him, had he sort of got the idea? Yeah, but that bit, it was like watching someone going... And he was, like, self-soothing, like, stroking his hair,

and then he's like, oh, I'm going to be the youngest grandad ever. Yeah, I'm going to be the youngest grandad ever. And it's like, definitely not. But anyway, it was quite strange. But he has, yeah, he's come around to it now. As we approach the 19th anniversary of his grandson's birth. It's very strange, though. But that is a thing that, yeah, that is awkward that you have to do.

And it's, you know, you don't come out once. You come out every day. You know, every time I'm on stage, I come out. If I go to the bank, I come out. day. Every time I'm on stage I come out. If I go to the bank, I come out. If I go and pick. What do you mean the bank? Because of our mortgage. We're two women together.

Do you know what I mean? Wherever we go. Not when you just take money out. No, I'm not like, hi, I'm a lesbian. Can I have some extra? But you know what I mean? The bank knows about it. I have to tell my GP every time they say,

and you're sure you're not pregnant? I'm pretty sure. So it's just an ongoing... It's just an ongoing thing that you always have to do, which is fine, but it means that you're always, first of all, telling someone about your personal sort of sexual life to a degree, and then you sometimes have reactions that you're not so, that aren't so kind.

You know, certainly when I was first starting stand-up, it would be the most consistent heckle would be about my sexuality. It would never be about how funny I was. It would always be about my sexuality. God. And it would often be quite grim, like quite horrific. Imagine being that person. Oh, horrible. Who thinks it, shouts it out. like quite horrific. Imagine being that person. Oh, horrible.

Who thinks it, shouts it out. Yeah, horrific. That's beyond, isn't it? And so, yeah, that would be the thing that is tough. But then, you know, I think it's important to talk about that stuff and say, you know, like in the podcast and say, you know, but I don't worry, I survived. And that's the, yeah, that's what I hope to do with it.

And I think that people enjoy it and it's a, you know, it's a pleasure to do. And it's, you know, and it's nice that I, you know, it's, I'm the person that sort of like, you know, hosts it, but people tell, you know, they really open up their hearts and tell their stories. And, you know, we had skin from Skunk and Antsy, this series, and, you know, just really interesting people that I antsy this series and you know just really interesting

people that i wouldn't normally get the opportunity to chat to you know that you sort of go oh you're an emmy that we used to be uh interviewing someone's like oh you used to be an emmy so what's that like and what do you do and what does it feel like and you know all that sort of stuff which i think is really interesting and do you like interviewing other comedians yeah it's fun because you don't always get to have those conversations i guess when you're working no and like lots of them are my friends because comedy is really small like in this country like we all know each other um so you know from like the biggest names to newer comics you know not that you'd know everyone but you'd know a good portion of those people

uh so yeah that's always really fun and when I had Alan Carr on he was brilliant and Tom came on of course and he was excellent and so yeah it is nice to just have different kinds of conversations definitely and you're talking about when you're on stage and you know it's almost like you have to I mean do you think that bit of time when you were figuring out how to be come to terms with yourself between, like, 14 and 21? Do you think that became quite a big driving force in what you do now? Do you know what I know? I think that I became so ambitious. So I decided I wanted to go to drama school

when I was about 14, and I decided I would never come out because I remember watching Ellen, knowing that Ellen's TV show got cancelled, her sitcom got cancelled when she came out. Oh, yes. I remember knowing that. Oh, that whole thing.

And so that loomed really large in my head. I was like, if you come out, you lose everything, so never come out. And I remember thinking, I can be an actress or I can be a lesbian, I'll be an actress. And then I became enormously ambitious because I thought, I genuinely thought, and I find this quite sad now,

I thought, I know that I'm gay, so if I'm really successful, my parents will have something to be proud of. Oh, wow. Is that too dark? No, I think it's really... It's very honest. Well, it is honest, but I also think that's probably... There's always got to be something in there that makes you feel that there's a...

What is the word? I think that's a driving force between a lot of creatives, actually, with that feeling of, like, have I done enough? Is this the thing? Have I achieved it? Did it work? Yeah, I thought that if I was really successful, it would sort of... Not that my parents are at all disappointed about my sexuality, but at the time, I really thought they would be, before I'd come out, and I thought, well, at least if I've disappointed them in one way, I can make them proud in another.

But also, of course, without being too like armchair psychologist, that's also about yourself, isn't it? Yes, of course. About your own feeling about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Because I was, you know, cause I had a lot of shame about being gay. Yeah. And so I really wanted to succeed and it gave me a real driving force. And I was like, you know, once I came out of drama school, there wasn't a lot of work. I found stand-up a couple of years later. And then I was like, I gigged six nights a week, sometimes doing two on a Saturday.

I used to have a little fixie bike that I would cycle all over London trying to get on. I would turn up at gigs that I didn't have, that I wasn't on, that I hadn't got a gig on and say, will you put me on? Will you put me on for five? Just desperate to get good, to be good enough. And then, you know, I had like, it was about 10 years before I really started doing telly,

of like just going up to the Edinburgh Festival, having months where I would be okay. Then, you know, I had a couple of months where I was like, had an okay show, I did all right. Then writing another show, going up, and then I did like right then writing another show going up and then I went I did like six solo shows there and the last four I was like selling out and then every year I was trying to make the show better and then going into a bigger room and getting better and better and better and

opening for different people on the road and it was actually when I met Alice that she was like you're good like you can stop doing it in this mental way now. You can just, like you've done it. And, but I think that that was really a fuel for me. And I think weirdly, you know, I know this podcast is about, you know, spinning plates with, not, no, I don't know. I was about to say we're doing everything, but I don't think that is what this podcast is about. But I think that having a child becoming a mum has actually slowed me down in a way that is beneficial to me to like me as a partner me as a mum me as a daughter but also beneficial to my career I think I'm much funnier now because I don't need it as much oh that's lovely and also I was thinking now that you're a mum as well that thing you said about wanting to give that to your parents, that you had that, you know, despite being gay.

Like now that you're a mum, you can see that you would never feel like that. They would never feel like that. No, totally. But it's, you know, it's something that you have to work through. Definitely. work through definitely and I think that talking about these sorts of things whilst it's sometimes feels like you're really cracking yourself open and being really vulnerable I think it's really important to go oh that is how I felt that is the truth that is the truth of how I felt about myself because I think quite often certainly with you know the gay rights movement we've come such a long way and we've you know we've got marriage equality and we've got lots of you know we can become parents in a myriad of ways, but it's important to still say, you know, it's not done.

There's still stuff that needs to be done. Homophobia is still alive and well in this country. You know, it's not just overseas that have, you know, opinions about people like me. And so whilst talking about it, there's always a little voice in my head going, stop banging on about being gay, it'll turn people off. I'm like, no, I need to shut you up,

because I don't think it will turn people off. I think people are interested even if they are straight, even if they've got the affliction of being straight. No offence. None taken. But I think you're right. I think it's definitely an ongoing thing, 100%. But I think there's so much strength in community and conversations

and building. I sometimes feel that with this podcast, it's like I've been populating an island and maybe you're doing the same. You've populated this whole island of people. Can I get a little boat across to your island? I think we've got a little bridge. Oh, great.

I'd love that. Because obviously all the gays would want to come and watch you perform. I'd come on to your island to do my stuff. Sophie's doing a show. She's doing a stand-up. Yeah, exactly. Susie's going to sing a song on my island tonight.

Oh, God, I'd love that. There we go. That's perfect. Oh, thank you so much. Oh, I've loved it. And I have an amazing gig tonight. Thanks so much. Putting the bit about the shoulder, I laughed. I'll try to. I'll try you so much. Oh, I've loved it. Have an amazing gig tonight. Thanks so much. Put in the bit about the shoulder.

I laughed. I'll try to. I'll try to. You got 100% success rate from the audience you tried out today. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. See, I love Susie Ruff. I hope you were laughing along with us there.

I like it when I meet someone and we just get giggly. It's a fun feeling. And I'm speaking fast because, quite frankly, they found me. I was hiding from my kids while I speak to you and... Actually, they've quietened down. I could hear these little high-pitched larynxes on their way to me. But I shut the door and it's quite out there it's quite out there um god I'm in such a state with all my things I'm surrounded uh I've actually been sorting out some of my clothes though and I've got rid of a few things recently that feels good doesn't it when

I say get rid I give them all to my local charity shop so that's that's what I do with them and this is I don't know if you feel like this when you get rid of things charity but I give them to the same charity shop every time and if I walk past that charity shop and they put one of my you know my old dresses in the window I feel really like yeah I want to be the window display item it's happened to me a few times. I know it sounds big headed of me, but it has. And I just get that little, yeah, that's my old dress. Now it's in the window of a shop. Thank you very much. But yeah, and I've also trying to work out what to wear for the Christmas tour. I've got a few ideas. I ordered something. It wasn't right. I'm sending

it back. I've got some ideas. I just, I know exactly what I want and I just need to find it or get it made. And it's September and soon it'll be tour time. I just go on tour in the middle of November. Yeah, I know it sounds ages away. It's not. It will come around quick. So that's what's on my mind right now. Oh, and writing some new music. I want to start my next album already I know I'm still releasing stuff from Hannah but I'm just feeling ready I've got loads of ideas I think sometimes you get this little flurry of of uh creativity and you just gotta seize it so yes going in the studio all good stuff in the meantime podcast is still one of my absolute favorite things so thank you so much for continuing to

find me here or if it's the first time you found us brilliant hello welcome to spinning plates please please please please please keep your suggestions coming for more people to interview i've got a very long list myself obviously uh and i think i'm all set for this series well i am all set for this series but i'm starting to do the next series now. And oh, I've got some great ideas and some good people that are saying yes. So please add names to the list. You know me.

It can't be too crazy. It can't be too wild. Yet, you know what? Even if you haven't got a name of someone you would like me to chat to, maybe some jobs that you think would be an interesting thing for a working woman who

happens to be a mother to be doing. What interesting jobs are out there? There's so many. The other day I was thinking things like a stunt woman. I'd love to speak to a stunt woman. And imagine being a stunt woman and then you go home to your children. That'd be crazy. Stuff like that yeah I mean I've always said astronaut I really want to speak to an astronaut one day it'll happen I did actually get someone that said yes she'd speak to me an astronaut and then and then the emails just stopped she stopped replying to my emails and I was like well it is like sending my emails out into the ether which is quite fitting for someone who's spent a lot of their time in space anyway i'm totally rambling i'm sorry i think it's i'm just full of a bit of euphoria that i'm in a quiet room and no one's coming to get me the amount of times in this last week i've

heard someone say mama mama oh my goodness um and uh you know i did have a nice little moment earlier where they're all sat around the dinner table together the four-year-old was talking to the 14 year old I was like oh I'm gonna really miss this one day when they're older but at the same time it's nice to be in a quiet room right now anyway I am rambling I'm sorry about that I will see you next week have a really good one thank you so much to Susie Ruffell for bringing her her sparkly wit thank you to Claire Jones for producing the podcast thank you to Richard Jones for editing it thank you to Claire Jones for producing the podcast. Thank you to Richard Jones for editing it. Thank you to Ella May for her beautiful artwork. And mainly thank you to you for your gorgeous ears. Thanks for giving me some time and I'll see you in a week. Lots of love. Bye. Thank you. you