Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 113: Julia Bradbury

Episode Date: December 4, 2023

Julia Bradbury is a TV presenter and an author with a passion for the outdoors. She has a 12 year old son, and 8 year old twin daughters who she had through IVF. Her motto to them is: 'Be good, be strong, be kind'.We met at Julia's London West London home and talked about how in 2021, she and her husband had the nightmare task of breaking the news of her breast cancer diagnosis to their children. She also mentioned how 'Fruitfly Collective' and 'Maggie's Centres' can support all sorts of people at these difficult times. She is thankfully now in remission: working back in TV and writing, but making sure she puts her health first.Julia talked to me about how she feels we're all suffering an indoor epidemic at the moment and how she is doing all she can to live in a healthy way. She shares a lot of those thoughts in the book she has just published called 'Walk Yourself Happy', which reflects her belief in health through nature. Even in London, she manages to have her nature fix first thing every morning by sitting on her (very safe) windowsill and getting the morning light as soon as she wakes up. She then takes further 'nature snacks' through the day.I left Julia feeling full of positivity and good intentions, vowing never to eat sugary cereal ever again! It remains to be seen whether I manage to change my ways...Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing. It can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello to you. Greetings from Ipswich. I am now about to do my sixth gig of the tour today.

And I love it lovely day, actually. It's been really chilled. After I had quite a lazy morning, because I get quite adrenalised after the gigs, so I'm not going to sleep until quite late. So last night we played in Cambridge. It was really fun. And went to a nice pub after the gig as well.

Had a drink somewhere local. Felt really quite Christmassy, which might seem like a funny thing to say as someone who's already doing a Christmas tour. But there's Christmas, then there's Christmas. And, yeah, so we had a fairly late night and then had a fairly leisurely morning, which was lovely, and watched a bit of Mean Girls

and tea and toast on the bus, and then went for a wander around town, went down to the water, like the marina in Ipswich. It was a really beautiful blue sky, sunny day, and I've been wandering all over town, and I have in my other hand, I'm sorry, I'm in the streets, I'm in the streets of Ipswich. I have in my hands a bit more christmas shopping actually doing quite well i'm doing lots and lots of stocking fillers as i go around town because i find sometimes they're quite hard to do online so i find like just finding little bits and bobs found some great stuff today so i'm hoping i haven't got too much left of that to do because it's a bit fiddly isn't

it what do you get teenagers in their stocking that can be a bit challengingiddly, isn't it? What do you get teenagers in their stocking? That can be a bit challenging. I mean, obviously you can still do silly things, but it's not like you can put so many toys in there. Anyway, I'm musing aloud. And yeah, I have never, ever played the Regent Theatre here in Ipswich before, so that should be fun. I'm looking forward to seeing what it's like tonight.

And everything's been going really well. I'm having such a nice time. Crowd's been amazing. The gig's really sort of bedded in. Feeling good about life. Yeah, all nice. And so, oh, my guest this week is Julia Bradbury. So Julia's got a son and twin girls.

And wow, she is somebody that's a real force of nature and I mean that in a really good way like she looks great she's like grooming with good health she's smiley she's made lots of positive lifestyle changes some of which I suspect were already part of her routine anyway loving the outdoors the benefits of walking the benefits of how nature can help your serotonin and your endorphins and make you feel good dopamine all these kinds of things you get from the sunshine however i think she's now more aware of it than ever as she was diagnosed with breast cancer a couple of years back now happily all in the clear with that. But it's resulted in her really wanting to make sure that she's in the best possible health for her children,

which is obviously a completely very understandable place to be in. And she's somebody that's very, as I say, very well informed about it all. And look, we know a lot of this stuff already, don't we? Process stuff, not good. Sugar, not good. Slugging around, not seeing daylight, not good. Some of the working hours, the stress levels, how you treat your body. There's a lot of modern life that doesn't benefit us long term. And we know it really, actually making changes to your lifestyle and your habits. Well, it made me think a lot about me.

I mean, I feel like I'm in quite a good space and that my energy levels are pretty good. I'm a happy person. You know, I don't get ill too often. But golly, she made me realize there's a lot I could do to get things better. Whether I will do them remains to be seen. It's hard to break a habit. And I think sometimes you need a really big motivator. And I think your health, having that under threat,

that's got to be a pretty significant one. So I think you're going to enjoy this chat. And it might make you muse a little bit on how you look after yourself we always sometimes we can give really good advice to our friends about how to be

good to themselves but you might not take the advice yourself so much so let's see let's see what you think but I tell you what you're definitely going to come away

learning a couple of things I know I did anyway so really good to you know have you with me again thank you and I'm staring at the Regent Theatre in the cold,

down the end of a road in Lipswitch. So while you're listening back, I'm going to go and put the kettle on and I'll speak to you in a bit. All right. Bye. It's really good to see you, Julia. Always lovely to see last time I saw you you're on a stage you were performing doing your thing and my kids were looking up in awe at you because one of my little girls wants to be a pop star she wants to be you and I was explaining how hard you work

and that you were probably going on to somewhere else the next night and all of those was like oh okay that's that's how it works yeah it is also really fun of course it is it's brilliant and you do it so well it's always a joy to watch you sing on before thank you well um it's so lovely to be around here today and congratulations on your book thank you very much um why don't we start with a really simple question how are you feeling how is life life is good actually thank you life is really good. The book was an interesting project because the idea for the book, Walk Yourself Happy, started around, I think it was about the same time that you started this podcast.

It was in the midst of the pandemic. And I saw a story on the news about a doctor in Manchester, and he was talking about some children in the area who hadn't been outside for the whole of the pandemic. Because of various reasons, they just hadn't been outside. Now, I'm an outdoors nut, and I think that kids need to spend time outside. We all need to spend time outdoors and outside. But particularly children in their formative years, it's massively important for lots of different reasons, for mental health, through how do they get on with their peers, problem solving, you name it. The studies show that it's massively important for lots of different reasons for mental health through how do they get on with their peers problem solving you name it the the studies show that it's hugely beneficial so I started thinking how are those children um how are they going to be

impacted long term not being outside at all forget everything else that potentially fundamental yeah um and you know everything else that could have been going on inside that home environment Yeah. And, you know, everything else that could have been going on inside that home environment. And then I thought back as to how lucky I am, really fortunate. I had a mum who loved gardening and a dad who's a real outdoors nut. So I would potter around the garden with my mum when I was little. And then I would go out hiking and walking with my dad around the Peak District, because that's where he came from. And we spent a bit of my childhood living in and around Sheffield. and I just know how fundamentally important that was to my development and my bonds with my with my mum and my dad

and how I've I've always used walking and nature um as sort of my therapist and my outdoor gym and my friend and it's just been there for me and it's something I've taken for granted because of that relationship that I have with it because of because of that upbringing so the book was was the idea was there to write how do we impress upon people how important nature is and how important walking in nature can be and not just walking because just being outside has lots of benefits as well and breathing outside a daylight which we'll maybe talk about later yeah um and then it developed into all right well it's not just going to be a book for kids this should be a book for adults as well because i think we're all suffering something called an indoor epidemic

we're all just spending far too much time inside. Most of us looking at blue screens. Most of us under artificial light, as we are now. Just living a very unnatural life. You know, our ancestors, and that's not going back that very far. Our ancestors were outdoor beings. We are outdoor beings. That's how we've evolved we've evolved to move outdoors we're bipeds for a reason we can carry things that's what sort of stands us apart from from other species is that we can stand up walk and carry our belongings with us um and you know then you go into how we started creating tools and all of those things but we've essentially always been able to up sticks, move with our tribe or on

our own, go to a different location and forage and hunt and be in daylight. And now most of us spend maybe 90%, maybe 95% of our time inside. And we don't do any of those things. We don't move. We don't move outside. We don't sort of like, we don't squat anymore. We don't go on all, you know, crawl around on all fours anymore. we just don't do so many things that we have evolved to do and the long term impacts of that behavior on us i think we're we're living them now we're seeing them massive spikes in chronic illnesses everything from type 2 diabetes to cardiovascular disease to cancers and then we move on to the mental health issues that we're seeing, massive increase in anxiety, neurodivergency in younger children as well.

And it's not just not being outdoors. There are other elements as well, the food that we eat, the environment that we're polluting, all of those things. But I felt that a book like this would be a really useful tool for children, for adults and for families for everybody alike because everything in the book is accessible as in you can do it if you

can appreciate what nature and being outdoors is doing for you then there are things in this book that you can do to to improve your health and i don't just mean your mental health and your physical health health is i call it we're sort of like, we're like a tree. And we have a health tree. And you could say to me, Jules, I work out five times a week. I go to the gym five times a week. And I go, that's really good. So it's great for resistance training and the rest of it.

What else do you do? And you go, no, no, that's all I do. But I'm really healthy. And I would argue with you, because we know each other a little bit and everything. I'd say, I don't think that does mean you're healthy. I think that means you go to the gym five times a week what else do you do for your health what do you do for your mental health what do you do for emotional health what do you do with something for with something that we call in the book social fitness which a psychotherapist called janet reaves then talks about which is how do you get on with people how

do you interact with people um what about your food? What about your daylight exposure? What about your sleep? All of those things create health. It's not just the one thing. So that's why the tree and the branches, that's my sort of analogy. And of course, I love it because I love trees too. Yes, perfect. And it's, you know, the holistic approach. Yeah.

And also it's made me feel brilliant about the fact I do not go to the gym five times a week. So we don't have to have the awkward conversation. There you go. That's good. My laziness has had a purpose today. That just would have been awkward. That would have been. Yeah, we'd have gone over it, but yeah.

I mean, firstly, I 100% agree with you that one of the things I've always loved about your approach and the things you've on Instagram and everything is how democratic your approach to health is. It's not about accessing clinics and I've just come away from you know two weeks in Portugal juicing or whatever these amazing things that will definitely have benefits which are benefit and can be really useful yeah not knocking it but just saying it's about things that are peaceful accessible around us and like you've said yourself that you know if the first step to feeling better in yourself in every way is literally one foot in front of the other in the most literal sense how brilliant is that and how achievable for most people and if it's not that exposing yourself to early morning like all these things and I really like it and how do you navigate between the science and the

things that are a bit more for want of a better expression sort of woo-woo yeah yeah how do you have you found that so first of all i'll just take a step backwards excuse all the puns and metaphors um you talk about like one step in front of the other um as i've mentioned the book doesn't just address walking it talks about other things but there are fantastic case studies in the book where real people have improved their lives or saved their lives i would argue through walking and through exposure to nature where they've done things off their own bat um from the guy who was waiting for a heart transplant who got off the hospital bed and then just walked and is still alive today when he was expected to be dead uh to um the lady with sickle cell who also was told by her

doctor, you need to get out of bed, you need to walk and go and see your baby. And she was like, what do you mean? I can't walk, I'm feeling. And he was like, no, no, no, you really need to move, you need to walk. And that changed her life. And she walks everywhere now. To another guy called James, who started building a healing pond in his garden, a pond that he could swim in. And he was overweight, he had a snapped tendon, and he was really struggling with breathing and overeating as well. And he discovered breathwork and five exercises, Tibetan exercises that he could do every day, and started building this pond, which he now swims in every day and feels that this closeness with nature and also completing the project doing it that helped him regain his health as well um so that's i think that's

important just to just to mention these are then they're ordinary people who really sort of found their way um after i'd after i saw the news program about the children who weren't weren't spending any time outdoors and i thought about this idea for a walk yourself happy book, how to access health through walking in nature, then I was diagnosed with breast cancer. So obviously, writing a book, the pitch had already been, was already there, and the idea was already there. But obviously, everything went on the back burner. And then it became about me looking after myself, researching myself, working out,

right, why, first of all, is there a reason why? And is there anything I can do to help my recovery to make sure that I can reduce the chance of reoccurrence? And I also gave myself a health audit. And I've spoken to one doctor and she said, it's amazing the number of people who tell me that they say these words, oh, I was so healthy before my cancer diagnosis. And actually, yes, there are incidents of cancer that are very bad luck. There are, and I'm absolutely not shaming people here who've been diagnosed with cancer and saying, it's your fault. And you're not doing it to yourself either. And I'm not doing it to myself, but I am incredibly curious about other factors that do play a role. So one in four cancers is preventable, which is quite a big statistic. So I started doing the research whilst I was undergoing my diagnosis and whilst I was

going through my treatment. Eventually I had a mastectomy to my left breast. So I lost my left breast, but I had an immediate reconstruction. I didn't have to undergo radiation and chemotherapy. And then I had to make a decision about ongoing drugs, what I might or might not take. And all of this time, I started doing research into what factors could have played a role. And also the book, I was thinking, actually, I probably will write this book at the end of this but it's going to take on a new dimension absolutely yeah because this is now about this holistic health it's not just about walking in nature it's about what other things so the massively surprising facts for me which are in the book are how important sleep is yeah

now I think it's something that we sort of all know. We think we know. But there is a badge of honour to pulling an all-nighter. People say, oh, I can get by on five hours a night's sleep. I know you have a very sometimes disrupted sleep pattern. And we just push ourselves through it. I did. So at one stage in my career, I was presenting a live television show on BBC One.

I would finish that live show, get on an aeroplane and go and film another show on the other side of the world. It's a travel show, film maybe in two different countries that week, and then come back and then start the live show again on the Tuesday. And I did that for a couple of years. So my time, you know, I was pushing the biology of my body. I was flying through different time zones, you know, all sorts of stuff. And I never gave it a second thought because I could do it. I felt able. I was younger. I had the energy. I just sort of pushed on through. And now I realize actually I was doing some damage to myself. myself. And what Professor Russell Foster would say is, I asked him, do you think any of this sort of lack of attention to my sleep, do you think it played a role in my cancer? He said, I can't categorically say that to you, Julie, but I can say it's like juggling with knives, because sleep is so fundamentally important to our biology. You know, I know, when you've had

a bad night's sleep, you just don't feel great the next morning your decision making is off you're a bit more negative as well you know everything that might be okay is not okay um the kids will say something that just sets you off in a different direction that they wouldn't have done yes you know big nodding yeah big nodding well the other thing that's happening is your biology has changed so I've been doing lots of the tests that you're talking about now sort of as an experimental. I want to do the tests so I can write about them, talk about them, and share my findings with people. Not so that they have to do all of these tests, but just as a demonstration of things that might be interesting. So your blood sugar control is severely impacted when you don't have a good night's sleep.

blood sugar control is severely impacted when you don't have a good night's sleep so i could have um the same breakfast after a really good night's sleep and a really poor night's sleep and my blood sugar spike will be higher if i haven't had a good night's sleep because my body just can't control uh my blood sugar in the same way because it's tired. Which might be why you also have more tendency to keep reaching for sugary things as well. Yes, and that's when the cravings start. Professor Matthew Walker, who's another world expert on sleep, I saw him on social media in the last month, and I really rate him.

I think we can all say that he's an expert we can rely on, and of course that's very hard as well. Who do we trust and who don't we trust these days he was talking to somebody in an interview and uh the question was asked if i have two or three good nights of sleep like eight hours eight hours eight hours and then i have a couple of nights of five hours five hours what's happening to me and one of the things that happens is your natural killer cells are depleted now natural killer cells are part of our immune system. This way, you get more likely to get all sorts of bugs and illnesses and colds and coughs and things.

One of the things that the natural killer cells help you with is fighting cancer as well. So if this is something that's happening regularly to you, yes, you'll be more prone to colds and flus and infections, but long term, you will be more prone to chronic illnesses as well. And I'm sorry for shift workers and for performers and for people who are out there who are listening. We know that when you have an irregular sleep pattern, we know that chronic illnesses are higher. The rates of chronic illnesses are higher in these people. And what Professor Russell Foster says in Walk Yourself

Happy is, if you can do it for five years and then give yourself a break, that is one of the things that you can do just to try and get off that treadmill and reset your body. The other thing is don't feed yourself the sugary things, the carby things that you feel that you want. Go for proteins, go for vegetables, go for those things that won't spike your sugar. Because the other thing i didn't realize is how dangerous lots and lots and lots of sugar is i just again i thought i thought we all know don't we but yeah but modern life it's very hard because you're having to navigate it yourself and everywhere around you is has normalized that way of living and convenience living and all that stuff it's

completely normal yeah and you can surf through the day that way and no and convenience living and all that stuff. It's completely normal. Yeah. And you can surf through the day that way and no one's going to pull you up on it because it was all there. It was all an option. And it's funny because as you were talking, I was like, sitting in your home, the doors have been sealed. And it was basically saying to me,

it feels a little bit like an intervention. Sophie, this isn't actually your podcast. Claire and I, your producer, have got together. Well, there's two exes, and I'm like, is Matthew behind that one and Russell's behind that one? But I'm also thinking sleep, that ginormous topic. Because what we haven't mentioned much of yet is the fact that you've also been raising three children within this time. So your twin girls girls are now eight yeah yeah and your little boy is now my boy's 12 12 all right yeah and so in the past the bit before you went on this journey of exploration into sleep and all the things yeah was this even an option to you to live in a different way because that's very hard

when you've got small children look it's so hard and and my whole family have had to make this transition with me and there have definitely been times where it's been very very challenging for them and I am that annoying mum who doesn't let me pizza all the time I don't let them have the path the cheesy pasta all the time I roll my eyes when we go to when we go out and yet again on the menu it's chicken nuggets a burger and um pasta with butter i mean that's just like the universal children's menu which is shocking imaginative it's really unimaginative and just not good for them as well so pretty patronizing to modern kids who i think have far more diverse palate than i had when i was little yeah they're exposed to a lot more food spices seasonings all sorts yeah um So it has been very, very difficult. And I was, I thought,

again, I thought I was healthy before my cancer. And then I started looking and realizing that I wasn't that healthy, that I didn't have good habits, that I wasn't looking after my sleep, that I was eating way too much sugar, that I was letting my children eat way too much sugar. So now I want my kids to be normal. I want them to have friends. I don't want them to be ostracized. But I am, we don't have, we used to have a sweetie drawer. We don't have a sweetie drawer anymore. We do, but it's full of very different things. And now if my kids want a snack, it's generally crunchy vegetables and some nuts and some fruit, that kind of stuff. It's not the chocolate drawer anymore.

Or if it is the chocolate drawer, it's dark chocolate. And you can have three dark chocolate buttons. Do they like it? They love it. They're now onto it. That's so sophisticated. I'm really, really proud, actually, that they've made such big adjustments. So cereal is another sort of guilty guilty guilty sort of partner and a party and i hate to hate to say this because people hate it when you tell them what to eat and i'm not telling

people what to eat this is research and this is stuff that's out there and there are people like professor tim specter uh chris von telegen has written ultra processed people these are the people who've really done the research who will tell you stuff like ice cream cereal supermarket sliced bread pizza from the packet all of this stuff is so ultra processed it's fundamentally bad for us it's messing with your brain it's messing with your gut microbiome it's it's not something again it gets back to not something your body understands we haven't grown up we haven't evolved with these emulsifiers and flavorings and texturizers that are used even in stuff like toothpaste they use things to make the toothpaste more palatable to make it more slippy to make it taste better um you know you can get strawberry

flavored toothpaste for your kids does that sound right i know it's crazy when you say it like that. It's bonkers, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I suppose it just sometimes feels quite challenging because the legwork in making the choices comes down to us being conscientious consumers, which takes time. It might take extra cost. It might take doing things that are slightly out of the way of the most convenient route yeah so it's hard it's really really hard and i and i and i feel you have to

be very dedicated if you're going to make these changes and it's also this is an information that is widely known as in it's not the food isn't that all of the ingredients you pick up a package um food whatever it might be whether it's you know a meat product or a pizza product or bread but whatever and you look at 20 or 30 different ingredients on the back there isn't there's there's no labeling that tells you oh xanthan gum that's that's connected to a bacteria family and and that's not really very good for us. Or, you know, whatever the colourings and the flavourings might be. Oh, this could have an impact on your mood.

I think if people, maybe if they knew more, it might help. But also maybe not. You know, people go, I haven't got time. That's the biggest thing. I haven't got time. We've been led to believe as well, and it's true for many of us, that we don't have time to make for ourselves to choose the right food we're on this we're on this hamster wheel of we've got to empty the inbox

of the emails we've got to do every request that comes into us yeah we have to answer every whatsapp message where this modern 21st century life is pressure all the time, which is why we've got all these stress, stressors, and I think an increase in anxieties and mental health issues. Because where's the time out? Where's the time where we don't have to do all this? We're never going to finish the to-do list. Yeah, and there's no filtering. That's what I find sometimes when I'm under stress. I've realized that every every message every whatsapp every email comes in at the same level and I can't navigate the big and the small just become everything's almost in block capitals yeah like which one are you meant to

respond to today and which one can you leave for a while and then when you leave it you forget and then you remember and then it's stress and you have to say I'm sorry I didn't get back to you yeah it's it's coming at us from every direction from our phones from our emails from our work colleagues from our family from our friends i mean bless my mum i love my mum she's 85 and she's discovered instagram i'm like no please stay away it's one more way for you to communicate the wrong way with us all you know she's gonna put something up on instagram that's highly inappropriate or some random message like oh are, are you coming? What about the bins? Or, you know, something that is just like, no, I'm not on Instagram. TV shows all night. Save up to $20 per month on Rogers internet. Visit rogers.com for details.

We got you Rogers. And how do you feel if, because it feels like, actually like a lot of women I speak to the, your home life, your, you know, your personal life and your work life there's so much cross-pollination so how are you at kind of compartmentalizing these things i've become much better okay because i have realized how important it is to be present bit of a cliche but one of those woo-woo terms are you present are you here but i want to be with my children and that's the one thing well there are many things that the cancer diagnosis taught me but for me my massive motivator is i want to be with my children and that's the one thing, well, there are many things that the cancer diagnosis taught me. But for me, my massive motivator is I want to live as long as possible to be here on planet Earth with my children for as long as possible. here to spend more time with them for homework or just to sit and play with the hamsters with them or watch even watch a movie with them or do some writing or drawing whatever it might be those are very very precious moments to me and I think they are precious moments for everybody and

I think those are some of the smaller things that it's easy to lose sight of and I coined this phrase in the book called the small things are the big things and those are the kind of things like this morning I did my breath work I do breath work in the morning light every And those are the kind of things. This morning, I did my breathwork. I do breathwork in the morning light every single day. That's one of my new habits. And I do it because scientifically, it's good for you. It gets your hormone cascade going and sets you up for the whole day, really elevates the mood and gets lots of other bodily functions going properly. So I wake up early to do that so that I can then be in time for the school run and breakfast and everything else.

And this morning when I sat out on my windowsill, which is very safe. Everyone's always very worried about me sitting on a windowsill. I can't fall down and injure myself. I opened the window and it was sunny. And it hasn't been a sunny morning for a while, for like three days. So it was beautiful. So I was like, oh, yes. I mean, I would do it come rain or shine anyway

but that was like yep that would be on my gratitude list today it's like it was it was just that morning light but it was sunny light in my eyes and it just made me feel just that you know 10 20 better about what I was doing and those kind of things are very, very important. And although the juggle is real with the kids and school and schedules, my schedule like yours is very haphazard. You know, I don't really know where I'm going to be from one day to the next. I could be away filming on location. So luckily, I have a partner who is very hands-on as a daddy. absolutely loves being a dad as well and I think because we were both late to the parenting game I was 40 when I gave birth to Zeph and he was he was 51 I think so we're older parents and in one way that's made us already we were much more

grateful for the the joy of becoming parents at that later stage in life. And I don't think there's anything wrong or right. But one of the things that being an older parent can do for you is you've got more experience under your belt. You're able to cope with things in a different way. And you can prioritize things differently, because that's what you've spent your whole life doing with other things, with your work and stuff. And then suddenly, children become the number one priority. It's not your job. It's not where you're going. not the business it's not it's not your to-do list it's right how do we make the children count how do we put them at the top of this pyramid and then work around that and that's what we do between us there's always one of us here so if i'm away for

work he'll make sure that he's not not that he goes away as much as i do but if there is something that one of us has to be at, that a parent has to be at, and for some reason I'm away, he makes sure that he's there. If I go away for three days of filming, he will be here and make sure that he's here. And likewise, he might have early morning site visits or something like that, and that would be the morning

that I'm with the kids. So we manage it and we juggle, but we're very much equal partners. and I feel very grateful to have somebody who pulls his weight like that in the same way and and really regards it as as what he wants to do and what he feels that we both should should do really no that is that's really important to share that's that's wonderful and I guess for both of you as you said the path to parenthood maybe didn't always run as smoothly as you would hope and from the sounds of it you really always knew you wanted to have children so if you take me back what was happening when you had Zeph what was going on in

your world at that time so Zeph so 12 years ago um so I had been diagnosed with endometriosis, which I've now explored more and have had lots of discussions about endometriosis. Endometriosis is a big clue that you could be estrogen dominant. Just putting that out there, too. There are lots of ladies out there who suffer from endometriosis. ladies out there who suffer from endometriosis. And estrogen dominance can, not necessarily, but it can play a role in other things downstream in your life, including breast cancer. That's not to say I don't want women who have got endometriosis and think they're estrogen dominant to think they're going to get cancer. But for example, what I've learned through genetic testing is I'm estrogen dominant, but but I also the easiest way to say it

without getting down into the whole sort of geneticists language is I don't process my estrogen very well so estrogen can be toxic and I don't process the toxic estrogen that well so there could arguably be again this is very layman's and there'll be doctors screaming at the at this going no that's not factually correct but essentially i don't process the the the uh that that toxic estrogen that well so there are buckets that that do look after the eastern and so i would have i would have had a toxic load of oestrogen. And when I stopped menstruating, where does that oestrogen dominance go? And one of the things that can happen is breast cancer. Right. So I was struggling. Endometriosis is also one of the side effects of endometriosis is infertility. And I was struggling to fall pregnant. And I knew that it was down to the endometriosis because

I'd been diagnosed and I'd had keyhole surgery to remove some of the endometrial lining that happens with endometriosis, the buildup. So we went down the road of IVF., that has all sorts of problems as well associated with it because it's an emotional rollercoaster. Um, uh, it has an impact on your health. You're messing with your hormones. You're doing all the things that I didn't really want to do, but I really, really wanted to be a parent. Yeah.

And actually you've been through IVF a few times. Yeah. So actually, uh, Zeph was like the miracle the miracle boy despite the endometriosis and everything else we we hadn't started the um IVF we tried something else and then I fell pregnant so that was brilliant we're like yay that's fantastic um and then after Zeph was born we were both both really, really desperate for him to have siblings. We didn't want him to be an only child, especially with older parents and all the rest. So that urge was almost stronger than the urge to have a child in the first place.

And that was when we started down the IVF route with Fourth. And it was four rounds, three, four rounds of IVF, which is punishing. You know, working with your cycle, injecting yourself. There's a lot. And I was trying to juggle work as well. I was spinning those plates. And I was presenting country file at the time. And I remember at one point, you do lots of tests when you're having IVF.

And they're monitoring your bloods to see where your hormones are. And then it's basically, they give you a cocktail. It's like, you're a bit like a racehorse. They're trying to get you ready to get you pregnant at exactly the right time. And the blood results had come in, but I was filming in Scotland. So I had to find a GP practice in Scotland where the lab could send the results to and that they could then read. Oh, they would like interpret them? Interpret the results. And then we could feed that back to my guy. I mean, it was horribly stressful and it didn't work because of course they didn't quite know what they were looking for.

They weren't my, it wasn't, they weren't my specialists. You know, they read the bloods in the way that they were reading the bloods as a gp practice would not the way that he was reading them as a and i just suddenly thought this isn't going to work i can't carry on juggling like this and trying this very complicated clinical procedure um and and be stressed the way that i am i'm not i'm just not going to fall pregnant there's no way i'm going to fall pregnant like this you know know, your chances are slim anyway with IVF. So I made the decision that I would really scale back all of the work and that I would just focus on looking after me. And I suppose that was the first time I realized my body just couldn't keep going. And that was when I realized I was not infallible and that I'm not superwoman and that you can't just crack on with everything all the time. And that was when I realized I was not infallible and that I'm not

superwoman and that you can't just crack on with everything all the time. And that it's not just your energy and your sort of internal capacity that drives you through that, that we are, we're little machines and we need a bit of nurturing and a bit of love and a bit of care as well. So I did scale back. And then when I did find out finally, after the third or fourth round of IVF, that I was pregnant, we had made the decision to go away to Greece. My family are from Greece. So we went to Greece, we went to a lovely little island called Spetsis. And we didn't move for five weeks. Very fortunate that we were able to do that. I know that, you know, it's a very privileged position

to be in, to be able to take that time out. But I'd worked leading up to it. I had another project after it. So we felt confident that we could do this. And I didn't move for five weeks apart from, you know, gentle walking and doing all the right exercise. I didn't have massages because that can have an impact. I didn't have reflexology because that can have an impact. I really, really took care of myself. I read lots. I went to, you know, swam in the sea impact I really really took care of myself I read lots um I went to you know swam in the sea I walked and that was where I found out I was pregnant with um the girls that sounds pretty magical as a little chapter it had such a happy ending yeah and it really really it was and we didn't know for sure that they were twins but you can but the way

that they measure the bloods you can see if you have a high count, they know that it's multiples is what they say. There's a high chance that there'll be multiples. So we had these bloods done in Greece. I got a boat to the clinic. Of course you did. All very chilled. You know, not like a speedboat, but like a gentle note. So I didn't fly.

I was like, and that's where we had the bloods done. And then they came back and they were like, oh and I remember the day uh so vividly and obviously I cried and it was very very early days but I knew that this was my last chance saloon if this pregnancy didn't um didn't result in children then this was my last chance so everything was was I was I was really holding on to this wow as um as something that that had to be well that'll be very reassuring for so many people I have conversations quite frequently actually with women who haven't had any children yet and they're maybe in their 40s and I always think stories of people having their families at that time is it's an amazing bit of hope for everybody

you know of how it can be but also when I was thinking about you I was thinking that as you said actually yourself that that relationship with your body and your health at that time I mean that's a huge amount of intervention as you say IVF is really invasive and were you able to be open about it because obviously with your relationship with your cancer diagnosis um a lot of it's been very open very conversational you know you're presenting live tv you know through the early parts of your diagnosis and speaking about live on air then you were doing interviews and your documentary which is brilliant and I would have felt like for me that would be quite a helpful thing if I was going through it. I would find that a useful place to put things. But with IVF, I don't know if people necessarily feel

they've got the same ability to be open. So I don't know if it was quite a private thing at the time. I couldn't be public about the IVF when I was going through it because of my work. It would have influenced the people and the broadcasters and the production companies that I work with. Right. the people and the broadcasters and the production companies that I work with.

Right. So it had to be private for that reason. But when I could, I was open about the fact that the girls were IVF babies because, same way that I went public with the breast cancer diagnosis, not because it was particularly helpful to me. Going public with the breast cancer diagnosis, not because it was particularly helpful to me that the breast, going public with the breast cancer diagnosis, I think was, and making the documentary, as you've sort of quite rightly pointed out, was helpful for me to do that. It was a way of processing everything that I was going through. With the IVF, I knew that it would be hopeful for people. And it was, as you said, it was a, it was, it ended well. So I'm touching wood and very fortunate about that but I wanted I wanted people

to to to see that yes you could be the wrong side of 40 and and it could it could work now that doesn't mean of course it's still the statistics are not really in our favor but it was a it was a hope story and I was very happy to put it out there so that people knew that's why I felt pregnant as well I didn't want to fool people in a way to thinking it out there so that people knew that's why I felt pregnant as well. I didn't want to fool people in a way into thinking it just happened or a natural, lovely, lucky coincidence that there was that intervention had taken place, that I had gone through all of that. With the breast cancer, I let people know as soon as I possibly could because I knew that I would have to handle it publicly because I didn't think I could keep it a secret from my children. I didn't think I could keep it a secret from the people that I was working with because I had to turn down projects and change projects.

And even now I work very, very differently. And I'm very honest about why I work very differently. And that's because of my breast cancer. I'm still in remission. I consider myself still to be recovering from breast cancer. And I'm taking the best possible care of myself. So that means I can't do the schedules that I used to be able to do. So now I always have a day off in between blocks of working.

When I'm filming, I don't do super early mornings anymore. I can't do them. I feel exhausted. I still feel tired. I need that morning light. I need my breath work to sort of boot me, get me going. And so far, production companies have been very, very understanding. But eventually people forget and they kind of, you know,

the requests come in, oh, can't you do this and can't you do that? Can you, you know, you go, well, no, I was working till 11 o'clock last night. No, I can't do a 6am because I just haven't had enough rest and sleep and um so you'll have to keep an eye on your own boundaries won't you yeah that's and and you also have to remind people but I don't want to always remind me oh I've had breast cancer it's but I do want to remind people that I'm taking the best possible care of my health and these are the things I need to do yeah no I think it's um I think it's really important and hopefully part of, you know, you've had so much experience,

you've been working for such, you've earned the right as well to completely articulate the boundaries of what works for you. And I think it's helpful for other people as well. There are rules when it comes to employment and people who've had cancer. You know, your workplace should be understanding

and they should give you and make allowances for you and give you the freedom that you need to recover. They shouldn't discriminate against you. And those rules and regulations are in place in the workplace. And I think it's important that people know that as well, that they are able to stand their ground and say, right, how are we going to work moving forward? Because it changed for me no that is really important actually i did want to ask you so my i've got a brother and um two sisters on my dad and my stepmom's side so there's the twins that were born when my older sister was one so for a time there were all these babies under three three under three and stepmom, my dad had wanted

children for a really long time. They'd been through IVF as it happened. That wasn't successful. The twins ended up being born. She just fell pregnant naturally. Didn't think she could. Very strange. That happens quite a lot. It does happen a fair bit, but it still was quite a shock because she didn't realize until she was four months and then they think they were born at seven. So as a family, we didn't have very long to kind of get our heads around this is when I was in my late teens but um I did notice that it was incredibly full-on having those babies and obviously much much much longed for but sometimes I think when you've got these very long for babies

but it's full-on it's quite hard to know where to put that emotion of finding aspects of it struggling a struggle or a challenge when you've also put yourself through so much to have them was that something that happened with you yeah I mean none of us are perfect parents are we and and and we've already spoken about you know if you don't get enough sleep um you're ratty and you know you might you know you might um react to the children in a different way and and certainly mistakes were made and uh angers uh you know tempers were frayed is your memory but now kind of softer because they're older honestly i think it is and honestly

i mean i was i was sitting in bed with one of my little girls over the weekend and we were trying to find this piece of video footage of her when she was about three and she would stomp up the stairs and she was a chunky little thing she was so cute she would stomp up the stairs and then she'd put her hands out and she'd go path word and she still got a little what's the path word and then you'd say and the puzzle would change every day it would be like sausages or chocolate or piggy or something like that. And we were looking for this. And we found it. And we watched it again and again and again.

We were laughing about it. And honestly, those are the memories that are most vivid for me. All those magical little moments. So cute. And they're not identical. And one of them was huge, looked like a big Buddha baby. And the other one looked like a little turtle. So we called them the Buddha baby and the turtle. So we just have all of these lovely, lovely little memories.

And all the bad stuff, like the midnight feeds and waking up after not enough sleep, all of that's a bit of a distant memory now. And I think it goes back to Russell Foster, doesn't it? If you can shift out of the shift work, we all go through those tough times, those first two or three years when they're not sleeping properly in the feeding and all of that, where it's just very, very hard. I'm very lucky that I have a close family, that my parents, even though they're sort of in their 80s, they're very hands-on. My sister, Gina, is very hands-on. My partnerina is very hands-on they were my partner is irish so he has

eight brothers and sisters oh so there are a lot of aunties and uncles out there and great aunties and he's one of nine yeah well his mother gave birth 13 times oh good irish catholic wow lost a few along the way i'm sad to say i'm sorry um but yes he's he's um he's now um one of eight wow big family big family but great i mean fantastic aunties so one of the aunties auntie uh well auntie rosie and auntie bernie we've got to give them all a name check auntie bridge auntie mary they're all amazing but auntie rosie hasn't had children of her own. And she honestly just jumped headfirst into all of the babies when they were here, from Zeph to the girls. She loved it.

And she has a really special bond. They've all got special bonds. But because she didn't have children, I think the fact that we said, here, yeah, change the nappies, have them sleep, do the routine. She loved it. And to have that as a backup, family i mean i know you you guys are really really close as well and that's the great thing about having a big family is you you can rely on them and you don't feel guilty you're like no no that's fine i will go and sleep

while it's the best while you take care while you do the feed and you know change the nappy all of that and i think seeing your kids have relationships of their own with other family members that's got nothing to do with you is actually one of the unexpected pleasures of parenthood. I love it very much. And I feel a little bit like I know your family, not because I follow your mum on her new Instagram account, but through watching the documentary and we saw your lovely mum and dad and your sister Gina.

I really got the warmth emanating from that. Absolutely gorgeous. There's some really special moments in it, actually. mum and dad and your sister gina and i i really got the warmth emanating from that absolutely gorgeous um there's some really special moments in it actually i i don't know if it's something you would you would watch right now i mean what's your relationship now like with that time when you're still as you say you're still in recovery from your cancer and obviously happily it looks like everything went very smoothly with the treatment but still such a huge thing to go through it is a really big thing and I would say I'm still um I'm still working on it I'm just about to explore different types of therapy now to sort of trauma therapy and healing therapy to really, I think I'm quite robust

mentally. But again, I think that's part of my coping mechanism of I'll be fine, I'll be okay, you know, and a bit and what I don't want to do is what I did 10-15 years ago, just push through. I want to make sure that I am healing in every way in the best possible way. So I'm looking forward to exploring that side of therapy. I still, surprisingly, I still get emotional sometimes when somebody might die, somebody who's well-known in the public space could pass away because of a cancer,

and that can hit me emotionally. And there have been a couple of incidents, actually. I had to read the audiobook for Walk So Happy. That's quite a big thing isn't it when you read it out loud? Yeah and a lot of it is very very lovely and it's all about what we can do and the science and health and nature but I do talk in the book about for example the moment I had my biopsy and I thought for the first time oh my god I might not be here for my children. I talk about the days when I came home from my mastectomy and how much it meant to me to be home with the children and what it was like telling the children.

And I really struggled. I had to. I had an amazing producer. She was very, very patient. And I cried and I had to go and take time out and really sometimes come back to that bit of the that bit of the chapter i've also just done um a podcast for the nhs all about uh now what it's basically now you've got a cancer diagnosis now what what are the next steps and it's a 10-part series and i breathed through the first seven episodes because it was quite it was quite practical and functional and this is what you can do and here are the groups and these people can help you and don't be afraid

to ask your doctor this and then we came to the chapter that was palliative care and what to do when you move on and I couldn't do it yeah I actually had to stop and we I couldn't do it that day at all I said I'm really sorry I don't know if I'm ever going to be able to do this one but I definitely can't do it today and we had to to, we had to sort of reset. And I came back to that. And actually, I did it here at home. And I still found it a bit difficult, but I did push on through and I did do it. But even then, I had a bit of a moment where I went, I'll be okay, just give me five minutes. Let me just get myself back together. Because the thing about a cancer diagnosis is first of all you do face your own mortality you do look death in the eyes even if your diagnosis isn't one of terminal disease

everybody knows that cancer can kill you the association there is very very powerful um and then once you're through a cancer diagnosis there's this risk of reoccurrence you know is it going to come back and i'm very fortunate you're talking about people hearing good ivf stories and how that can that can buoy people along i'm very very fortunate that um lots of people have written to me and talked to me on instagram and i've just been on a book tour and ladies have come up to me and said 20 years clear 15 years clear had the same as you got on all been fine I know I find that really moving yeah it's it's really and it is emotional yeah um and it's you're just like oh thank you because you want to hear those stories you want you want those and i'm a positive person and i have my gratitude journal now and i

meditate every day and i really work hard on my my mental health but of course you've got to deal with all of those potential chances that it might come back and what would you do and actually one of the hardest things one of my little girls asked me a few months ago. She said, Mummy, what if your cancer comes back? And I couldn't answer her. I just said, it's not very good, darling. And then like, let's go and do something else. Let's go and clean the hamster cage or, you know, move on from that. Because they're not conversations that you want to have.

And I don't want to let the dark into my heart. I want to try and keep the light and the positivity there, not in a false way, not in a way where I'm not being realistic, but in a way that I am not thinking about the bad stuff, that I am focused on the good stuff, which is why I suppose I've thrown myself so headlong into all this health. What can I eat that's going to really nurture my body in the best way? The morning light, what exercise can I do? How can I reduce

the risk of reoccurrence practically? What can I do? And I feel very strongly for me that all of these things are helping me. They're helping me mentally, but I think they're helping me physically as well. And I think I'm doing my best possible job of holding it off and being the healthiest version of me and learning from that experience. And if you can't learn from a bad experience, then... Yeah, there's got to be a way to find the best, most positive relationship with it in your head. Otherwise, I think you can actually lose your tether on. It's like a thread that you pull out and then the whole thing kind of unravels a little bit so I can totally understand that and I think children I mean you didn't need a cancer diagnosis to know that you want to be around for your kids as long as possible that's definitely not something

that's an instinct isn't it but my seven-year-old, for example, asks me quite often, I'm worried you're going to die. It's a constant thing with him. He's done it for quite a while now. And sometimes... Asking you when you're going to die. Yeah. And sometimes I'll go off to work

and I'll think, I better bloody not die this weekend because he's going to remember I said I'd come back after work. Yeah, yes. And so it puts a pressure on you even when you haven't got anything in your peripheral vision. And I know you've already spoken about the time when you had to do the thing that no

parent ever wants to have to do, which is tell them that you've got an illness that might turn into something big and scary and might leave them without one of their parents. But would you mind just for anyone who hasn't heard you, because it might be helpful. Yeah, it's something that I did address in the documentary, Breast Cancer and Me. And did we film it? I think we did. Well, you didn't film the actual bit with Saturn then,

but I think it was in the garden. Yeah, it was in the garden. So first of all, we made the decision that we were going to tell them. Some families might choose not to, but I didn't think that was... I would definitely have to tell them. Yeah. You're right, not everybody does. I don't think, I don't think that we as a family could have hidden all of the emotions

and everything I was going through in a way that the children wouldn't have known something was wrong. They would have known. And then I think for their minds not to know, it would be worse, certainly for my children. They're very curious. We're very open. We do talk as a family. That's a really important part of our family life and structure. So we both agreed that we would have to tell them.

And then we thought, well, how do we do it and where do we do it? And the garden was the natural place because we all love nature. We like being under trees. And that's a safe place for them as well. And we could hold their hands and pause and walking is brilliant for, I think, difficult conversations and lovely conversations. Yes, no direct eye contact. Yeah, side by side, pacing things out.

So we said, we've got something to tell you. And we said, look, mummy's got something called cancer. And cancer is an illness and it can be very very serious but it doesn't have to be and we think mummy's going to be okay so that's all that we can tell you i am going to have to go to hospital and i will have to have an operation and it will be really sore and i'll won't be very very well for a while you know i physically i might not look the same um and i might not feel the same and i won't be very, very well for a while. You know, physically, I might not look the same and I might not feel the same and I won't be able to run around in the garden with you for a while

because I won't be feeling very strong. And one of my little girls, and this always makes me cry, so I'll see if it doesn't make me cry when I say this. One of my little girls said to me, can I still hug you? So, yeah. It does still make you cry. It does still make you cry. If you're wondering yeah it also makes me cry yes um and i said of course you can still hug me um my lovely in fact i want you to hug me more yeah because i'll need lots of hugs you know i'm going to need you

to um to be there and do everything that you can for me. And then I was very surprised actually, when I went into hospital to have the mastectomy, I stayed for longer than I thought. I took the time. I could, again, very fortunate. I could take the time. I was in hospital for five days. I had a drain in after my mastectomy. So that's the drain that sucks out all the blood that might gather around your wound. And I didn't want to see the kids. Well, I wanted to see the kids. I didn't want them to see me. Yeah, you need a bit of time to be.

I didn't want them to see me in bed, propped up, bandaged up with a tube coming out of me, you know, looking the way I was, high on the pain medication. I just didn't want them to be exposed to me like that. So for the first time ever, I mean, I've made series in Australia. I've traveled and I always, every day, speak to the children, video call. So the first time ever since they were born, I didn't see them for five days, even on a video call. I bet you they won't remember those five days.

No. You do, you they won't remember those five days. No. You do, but they won't. I do. No, and I think it was the right thing to do for them, definitely. Yeah. And it was the right thing to do for me because I just would have found it so stressful and upsetting for them to see me and then for them to ask me questions about it.

So I remember the moment, and this is in the documentary, when I did come home and I had a little bit of time in the garden on my own, which I loved. I just sat out there. It was October. There was sun in the sky. It was a blue sky. Just, you know, one of those freaky, lovely days in October, autumnal colours. And I just sat there and I felt that sunshine on my face. And I said to myself, I'm going to be outside every single day of my life from this day forward, even if it's just shuffling around the garden. And my kid's going to be home in half an hour. And I went upstairs and I sat on my bed and I waited for the kids to come home from school.

And they came home and they jumped on the bed and it was just one of the most beautiful moments of my life to be back with them. Yeah, that's very special. Yeah. There's a bit where your kids are going off, I think they're going to a play date, and you say to them, be strong, be brave.

Be good, be strong, be kind. Yes. Is that something you say all the time? Yeah, I say that all the time. Be good, be strong, be kind. So be good, be a good person, be strong, because stuff will happen that you have to deal with. And be kind, because we should all be as kind to everybody as we can all be.

Yeah, I thought that was really cool. That's a nice send-off. Yeah, I like that. All the good stuff in life. Yeah. Well, just to finish, before we start send off. I like that. All the good stuff in life. Yeah. Well, just to finish before we start. Oh, I will just say something else for people. There's a brilliant, brilliant charity called the Fruit Fly Collective.

Oh, yes. The people who help children. They help you talk to children about cancer. All sorts of things. They have workshops. They help children understand parents who are going through chemotherapy because you're obviously very tired with chemotherapy and everything could be hard like you can't tie your shoelaces um brushing your teeth is hard so they have like toothpaste but filled with lead

so that the kids can pick it up and see how heavy it is and they ask the children to tie up shoelaces with boxing gloves so they can see how so that they know why mommy or daddy can't do all the stuff that they used to be able to do or you's so brilliant that they can break it down like that. Brilliant. And they explain, as I said, what cancer is and the cells proliferating. So it's a brilliant, brilliant resource. And big shout out to all the breast cancer charities. And a big shout out to Maggie's as well, which is a walk-in centre.

You could walk in and say, my friend Julia's got cancer and I don't know how to talk to her. What do I do? Yeah, no, Maggie's are brilliant. And they'll help you as the friend of the friend or it could be me and i go can i see your clinical psychologist please because i just don't know what to do with this information yeah i know that it's a wonderful resource my mom's actually um one of the patrons there we go see of course of course your lovely mummy yeah exactly and um i think what fruit flies does is brilliant not just for the stuff of breaking it down to kids so that they have a way of taking the abstract and something they

can understand but also when you're in that community seeing other kids their parents going through because i think for a little while you feel like you've slipped out of the you know the the lane of your normal life into a sort of other other section of things and then you will see other families that's all happening to them too yeah and other and other parents like your your like your normal like um school gate mums and dads and everything they don't know how to treat you either they don't know what to do they don't quite know what to say other than are you okay how are you yeah hug and then that's it but yeah so you do need people who have got experience um and that the children can talk to other children and go how is it how is it for you yeah that's really that's really important so before we start recording i said to you that i

feel like i'm read your book at the right time in my life because i was reading it feeling like there's a lot of things in here i'm probably there are aspects of uh how you speak about how you thought you were healthy and the things you were doing, but then you realize you were depleted in a few areas and maybe not prioritizing aspects of your well-being. So apart from telling me to stop my career in which involves bits of nightlife, dodgy circadian rhythm, is there anything else that you would say I could start with is a good thing to help me? Yeah, I think there are lots of practical tips in the book, but there are a few things that I think are fundamental to our health that we could all implement tomorrow. Some of them are easier than others

because people have different relationships with food. But first of all, be out in nature or green spaces and daylight, natural daylight, as much as you possibly can be for all the reasons that I said earlier on. It's not woo-woo. It genuinely will help your health. People who spend time in nature, their blood pressure drops, their natural killer cells increase. So their immune function goes up, their stress levels go down. I mean, it's, you know, there are biomarkers, it's been measured. So it really, really works. So make sure you build that.

I call them nature snacks in the book. Build nature snacks into your day. And yeah, do that. I urge everybody to prioritize that. Something I found easy when it came to food, I was definitely addicted to sugar. And I think we all are because it is, as you've said, it's ubiquitous, certainly for life on the road or when you're on tv or if you work in a hospital or um it's just everywhere it's like you know it's vending machines um supermarkets are now 65 70 full of

processed foods not yeah you know the whole foods so one thing that i found easy and hard at the same time, there are two things that I did to improve my eating habits. First of all, I stopped snacking, full stop. So just don't snack. So that meant I didn't have my elevenses where I dunked my custard creams or I had the donuts. I didn't have that handful of Maltesers at four o'clock in the afternoon. I didn't sit on the sofa

anymore after i've eaten dinner and have a bucket of popcorn with maltesers poured into it i stopped well snacking yeah you really did love your sugar i really did love my sugar so if you stop snacking that that's first of all you stop these blood sugar you know the the roller coaster you stop that you stop spiking your blood sugar which will help you with insulin control and help you with blood sugar levels. And it just means that you will be more, you'll get rid of so much crap in your life. Because you just go, the rule is, I can't eat if it's not mealtimes. And what you can do if you've still got a sweet tooth, I've switched to dark chocolate. If you've still got a sweet tooth, eat the sweet things. For me, it's the dark chocolate at the end of your meal. And that reduces the sugar spike and is better

for you. And you're sort of, you're still doing it in that, your meal window. You're not snacking, you're having your little treat. But so that's a really good thing. Bolt on that, that little bit, that treat bit, that treat bit. Always not on an empty stomach because on an empty stomach is the worst because you're literally – and sugary drinks. It's just like the sugar just goes straight into your bloodstream and not good. So snacking and stick to mealtimes. Prioritize sleep. Now, younger people are going to go, forget that.

But read the chapter on sleep. Look how important it is. And the other really good tip about sleep is you would not be driving on a motorway at 70 miles an hour, top speed, overtaking every car in the inside lanes. You wouldn't be driving and then suddenly pull up the handbrake and career into the hard shoulder and then take a nap. You wouldn't. If you you were driving that's not how you would stop the car right why should we and would we think it works for us to be going at breakneck speed all day doing our to-do list emails phones smartphones children juggling singing a song writing a paper um seeing to somebody in the hospital bed, doing all of that. Why do you think we can go straight from that and then eat and then go to bed and have a really great night's sleep?

Where's the wind down? When you put it like this, it all makes a lot more sense. We all need a wind down period. And that means turn down the lights. Don't watch Happy Valley back to back where people are getting stabbed and dying. I mean, I love it. Can you watch it at any other time? You know, reduce the, stop the screen time. Don't eat late.

Yeah, that's a good one. Which is, that comes as number four. So we'll save that one. We'll keep that one for a moment. But slow yourself down. I have things called blue light blocking glasses. I put these glasses on. They've got yellow lenses. So that at that at night i mean i'm like the lady going around the house turning

all the lights down i say to the kids no no night night you know dimmers dimmers dim it all you you don't want your body your eyes that morning light in the morning you don't want your body to think oh it's still night let's keep going guys let's keep the hormones going so slow yourself down and that will really help yourself sleep don't get into bed at 70 miles an hour okay don't eat before or try not to eat three hours before you go to bed yeah because you rest and repair while you're sleeping as we've already spoken about but if you're still digesting those maltesers and that popcorn or your your late night meal you are not resting and repairing you're digesting so those Maltesers and that popcorn or your late night meal, you are not resting and repairing, you're digesting. So your body's not doing what it's meant to do during sleep.

It's doing something else, which means you won't wake up feeling bushy tailed and brilliant. Or if you think you do, your body hasn't done everything that it's meant to do. Cleansing your toxins, clearing the brain, repairing your gut lining, doing all of that. cleansing your toxins clearing the brain repairing your gut lining doing all of that and i think those and obviously the final the fifth one for me is walk more yeah walking's good walking's good walking's good walking's good for relationships bonds friendships you mental health challenges just making you feel gratitude and awe when you're out there and you look up at a big mother tree and you go wow look at her she's pretty special as you can give her a hug as well well talking of mother trees yeah thank you so much i think you're good and strong and kind and um i i think the next step's got to be um a book to help um all the the parents out there

with that bit of their life and how to help your kids get on the straight and narrow because it sounds like you've got lots of very sensible things that i think my kids are not gonna know what's hitting when i get home what's happened mom's mom's something's gone wrong i've got i'll show you um i'll show you some dark chocolate buttons that they really like. You can swap them, you can try, swap it out. And if you say that this is all that's available in the house, then trust me, they'll take them. I know, that's very true.

And actually, you do get, I used to have two and a half sugars in my tea, and now I don't have any sugar in my tea. And you do get used to it. You do get, I have steamed vegetables for breakfast now and no cereal. Do you? Yeah. What kind of vegetables? I have a mixed plate of vegetables, so I mix it up. I'll have broccoli vegetables breakfast now and no cereal do you yeah what kind of vegetable i have a mixed plate of vegetables so i mix it up i'll have broccoli cauliflower some leeks i might

have some spinach one day a week i don't need too much spinach because the oxalates um i really mix up my veg and actually sounds quite tasty do you have anything on it yes i have a squeeze of lemon juice i have a big glug of olive oil i put f fennel seeds. I put some cayenne pepper. And I might have a bit of avocado or a little bit of mackerel. I have changed. That is such a new thing for me. What was your old breakfast? Oh, the old breakfast would have been cereal.

Yeah. And cereal, I'm afraid, is an ultra-processed food. It's not a great way to start your day. It's very, very sugary. And it's not. And people go, what am I meant to eat? Nuts, seeds, yogurt, fruits, berries, steamed veg. Yeah. And if you start, I have genuinely retrained my palate.

And now I do not have the cravings that I used to have. 11 o'clock when I used to do the dunking, they said, I don't even think about that now. I'm honestly, I'm set for the day. My savory start to the day sets me up. You can change your palate. You can change the way that you eat. You can reduce the cravings. You don't need huge amounts of supplements.

You just need to give yourself two weeks. Okay. It took me about two or three weeks. And in two or three weeks, for me, sweet used to be maple syrup, honey, chocolate, whatever it might be. Now, a blueberry blueberry and i'm rocking honestly seriously happy with that thumbs up for blueberries yay it's a low sugar fruit very good for you that's so good oh thank you so much oh thank you for having me on spinning plates and thank you for spinning all of your plates and entertaining us and doing all the lovely stuff

that you do for us as well my kids adore you and they're hoping that this has gone on long enough so that you'll still be here when they come home from school oh cool well though they're circadian rhythm chat if your daughter wants to be a pop star you're gonna have to make sure our gigs are on i tell you what i'm thinking like daytime raves as well i'm going. Hello. Me again. So, did it make you think? It really made me think.

I mean, firstly, I really relate to Julia and her relationship with the outside. I'm the same. Today, I went for like a two-hour walk around Ipswich and it just makes me feel better I like walking around seeing the sights clearing my mind obviously I don't always get the indulgence of having all that time but I walk the kids to school whenever I can whenever I'm home and um I love my walk and I'm very protective of it as well I will organize my whole day just to preserve walking into school and walking home again it usually takes me about 45 minutes as a round trip and it's like really precious to me um I also totally appreciate what she says about sunshine and how important it is about sunshine and how important it is.

She said some slightly, well, it's probably all true, but worrying things about, you know, nocturnal jobs. I mean, I say this as someone who finishes work, I come off stage at 10, and then by the time the adrenaline's worn off, I normally go to bed around midnight one if I'm kind of doing quite well. Sometimes it's later. Well, let's see what happens. Let's see how my lifestyle works out. That's something I can't tweak, but I could

definitely do a little bit of tweaking with my diet, I think. I think I do play a bit fast and loose because probably like a lot of people, I think I'm quite good, but I'm probably not that good. Anyway, let's see. Let's see. It's still, it's good to think about these things sometimes, isn't it? So much of it's about habits. And I do think Julia is such a lovely, warm person and it's lovely to speak to someone who's such a, she's got such natural maternal energy, natural maternal energy. All the good stuff. And just loads of energy full stop, actually. Yeah.

Like I said before, she's a force for good. She makes you feel energised, which is a nice thing. And, yeah, thank you so much for listening. I'm about to start getting ready. Oh, God. Rich is going to hate that. There's this air conditioning unit in my dressing room and it's really noisy. You're just going to have to have that sound in the background oh sorry richard it goes on for about two or three minutes um but i cannot work out how to turn it off it's really annoying it's loud

isn't it sorry um oh i wonder if it's that switch no you don't have the sound of me turning off switches um the main thing is thank you for listening I'm about to get myself ready for Ipswich Regents Theatre tomorrow's a day off Saturday Liverpool Sunday Sheffield home for a day off on Monday back with my babies and then on Tuesday, which is my homecoming gig, because I'm a Londoner. So, yeah, all good. And if you're one of the people that's come to see me on the tour, thank you very much. I hope you've been entertained. I hope you've been feeling a little bit more festive once you've spent some time with us.

I've certainly been enjoying myself a great deal. And, yeah, spirits are good, I would say. Oh, and tomorrow being Friday, I get to open my first day of my advent calendar. Do you guys have an advent calendar? I have a chocolate one that Richard gave me. So that's exciting. Oh, I just realized that totally goes against what I was talking about with Julia. I should have got a bloody 70% cocoa one, shouldn't I? Maybe next year. Anyway, lots of love to you and i will speak to you again next week so have a good one in the meantime lots of love oh i'm back on again

because i just remembered something i want to give a little congratulations to lma and her boyfriend billy because he proposed to her yesterday and they got engaged and that is a happy thing so congratulations to you Ella May Ella May is the amazing artist who does all the podcast artwork she's brilliant and she's a very very lovely presence in in my life because she's always very upbeat and positive and her artwork is amazing so yeah congratulations to you guys and yeah just wanted to give a shout out so thanks to Ella May for the artwork thanks to producer Claire Jones thanks to Richard for editing thank you to Julia for being such an excellent guest and thank you for lending me your ears once again

I will see you soon all right let's love baby Thank you.