Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 114: Sandra Igwe

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

Sandra Igwe decided to turn a painful experience into purpose. When we spoke recently she told me about some of her difficult experiences both during childbirth and afterwards.These led her to become the founder of The Motherhood Group which supports the Black maternal experience. Sandra has also written My Black Motherhood which demands that Black women are listened to, believed and understood by healthcare professionals.We spoke about Sandra’s two daughters Zoe and Chloe, and the legacy Sandra hopes her work will leave, for when they come to have children. We also talked about her forthcoming third child. I got a bit over-excited about Sandra’s search for a name for that will rhyme with theirs, as I realised ‘Sophie’ is a near rhyme. Sandra kindly said she’ll let me know!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing. It can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Picks. Greetings, you're with me backstage at Guildford's G-Live venue on what is the, hold on, 9th, is that right? No, I think it might

be the 10th actually, date of the tour. Hold on, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, oh no, it's the 11th, I don't know what's going on. It's been going really well. If you've come to see us, um, on this tour, thank you. What a joy. It's been absolutely delightful and I'm so thrilled with the reaction and it's funny with this tour. I, I didn't know exactly what it was going to look like or necessarily what songs I wanted to sing when I had the first had the idea to do a Christmas tour but one thing I did know is how I wanted people to feel when they experienced it and I just wanted to bring some sort of properly festive cheer and a bit of fun and I've had some really really lovely comments back um that people seem to be receiving that feeling so that has made me feel really happy and sorry if you can hear the sound of sharpie it's because while I'm talking to you I am signing programs that's me slapping them on the floor

um yeah I've got these beautiful programs we've done and yeah it's been really good fun we had our London show a couple of nights ago and all the kids come out on stage had all my family and friends there and that went well and that's always a relief to be honest with you because London shows are a mixture of emotions

they're like they're my hometown so I always want you know a good result but also you're like ah because you walk out

and it's like bloody where's Wally saying all my friends and family everywhere but you want everybody to you know see what you're up to

and enjoy it so it's just yeah it's really nice it went well and I'm sure Guildford tonight will be no different, it's been really good, it's been lovely, and brilliant, you know, mostly sold out shows, how nice is that, lucky me, and yes, anyway, so you probably don't want to hear about all that, maybe you do, I don't know, this week's podcast guest so um I'm trying to remember what first introduced me to Sandra Igway I think it might have been I think it might have been I was reading I was reading online about Vogue they did a dinner for influential women and one of them was this woman Sandra Ig. And I started reading the little caption about her.

And it was talking about how she has formed a group called the Motherhood Group, which has a focus on black women in pre- and postnatal care. Because quite startlingly, black women are four times more likely than white women to die during pregnancy and childbirth. And I remember hearing that statistic when I spoke ages ago to Candice Brathwaite, who was one of the guests I had on my first series of the podcast. And Candice had a book called I'm Not Your Baby Mother, and she spoke about this statistic in that book. And Sandra has a book called My Black Motherhood and it details how she found her first and her second birth she's got two little girls really traumatic she felt she wasn't

listened to properly she felt that she was her emotions were dismissed by the midwife she felt she had to justify herself her position her, her grounding, just to get some respect. She fundamentally just felt she wasn't receiving the same level of care as she should, or that there was much kindness attached to it, which really is so startling, isn't it? Because look, when you're going through childbirth, you feel very vulnerable, you feel out of control. And the last thing that you want to have is feeling like people aren't listening to you properly. So what is rather magnificent about Sandra is she didn't just think, oh, well, that was a traumatic experience. I'm with the rest of my life. She somewhere in her felt this little flame of I don't think that's good enough. And anecdotally, she was hearing similar stories from other people that she knew other black mothers she started a whatsapp group that

grew and it grew and now it's a massive organization and she campaigns to make change to make a legacy that will hopefully shift this bias for her daughters so a really really impressive woman and wishing her well as well, because she's about to have her third baby, I think pretty much any day now. She's had the baby shower and I think one of her last posters said something like, just waiting for you to arrive now. So I hope she's doing okay out there. And I hope that her next childbirth experience is a more positive one but yeah what a woman and I'm all for making that change I think as I said before the idea of not being listened to is just

it's so traumatic and it's so fundamental so anyway over to Sandra my chat I'll be here continuing my signing and I will speak to you on the other side all right see you in a bit Sandra it's so nice to meet you and thank you for talking to me today um I think we're going to have a really interesting conversation and I'd like to start with the here and now because you're about to have baby number three how are you feeling are you feeling good I'm feeling excited I'm feeling nervous um I'm really really you know apprehensive also about my pregnancy the the later stage that's where um I had previous complications with my first two but for the most part I do feel like this is a blessing so I'm looking forward to it yeah it's exciting feeling I remember that feeling where you're just like I know I'm about to meet this new person and they're going to change everything but I don't know who the person is yet

that yes exactly exactly so I'm just looking at names at the moment and um so just trying to see if it will fit in with my Zoe and my Chloe um because it's so funny their names rhymes yeah yeah so looking at rhyming names well that's the thing you don't realize when you have your first that you've already set up a little pattern of names that need to go and you've made life quite well it's quite sort of prescriptive for yourself having rhyming names so that really narrows it down it really does and there's not that many names, sadly, that end in O-B-E. For, yeah, yeah. You'll find it.

You'll find it. Yeah. Forever is. So, well, yeah, I suppose it's very prudent, actually, that we're speaking at this time when you are approaching another birth because your associations, I speak to women who've, you know, their careers have fallen in all different paths. Some women are doing what they do.

They have a baby. They go back to doing exactly the same job as before. For other women, having their baby changes everything. And I suspect that is exactly the category that you're into. So why don't we go back in time to what was going on in your life? What were you doing when you were having your first baby? What was your job before your baby? Wow. So seven and a half years ago, almost eight years ago, when I was pregnant with my first daughter, I just met my, about a year before, I met my partner,

my now husband, and I was, you know, just finished my MBA working in the University of Coventry when I moved up to Coventry. But prior to that, I was actually in the University of Hertfordshire doing their contracts. So I had experience in, you know, collaborating with small enterprises to big enterprises and the university. So doing their contracts with my legal background. I was very, very ambitious, traveling the world, going out to eat, and I really really really enjoyed life and that's probably why during my pregnancy it was a massive shock so Zoe wasn't planned and I know there is some what's the word taboo around I guess unplanned pregnancy than how you manage that but that was a massive shock for me something that I didn't have in the pipeline or could foresee for at least another five maybe seven years so for me things had to dramatically shift and that's probably why I

struggled a lot with adjusting and also my mental health as well at the time so yeah. Well no taboo in my house my eldest I don't know if he minds knowing I have told him no but that wasn't a planned baby um definitely a wanted baby but yeah I'd only been dating Richard for about six weeks when we found out we were having a baby which was when people asked me if I planned I'm like whoa you must credit me with some intensity like I think this is gonna work let's have a baby um yeah so I think that kind of a bit like you um and you in my own smaller way with the podcast it put into motion

this whole chain of events where I really had to think a lot about my sense of self, what I wanted for myself and how on earth I was going to find my way back to me now that I was also somebody's mum and there's lots about motherhood that causes you

to hold a little bit of a mirror up to yourself about your own upbringing, your relationship with your parents, what kind of a parent you want to be yourself, where your values are at, what's important to you. But I think also, if you have a pregnancy or a birth that throws you into something that's quite traumatic and unexpected, that is something that takes a while to get over. And sometimes those conversations don't have for quite a long time afterwards

because everybody's too busy saying, oh, congratulations, your baby's here. So you're supposed to sort of just shut that chapter a little bit, like that's just what happened before and now you get on with the here and now. So I'd love to hear from you a little bit more about what happened when you had your baby that kind of slightly sparked everything that's gone on since then, I guess. Yeah. Oh, thank you for being so honest, Sophie, by the way. That really helps me to open up a lot more easier. And as I mentioned, I probably was the first in my circle of friends to have a baby a baby to become pregnant and also to get married as well so um there was quite a bit of pressure in having to sort of have this joyful graceful

blessed um experience and really show the highlights of of motherhood of pregnancy um but you know I guess for me what happens when know, you try your best to reach out for support, you try your best to be honest and you're fearful that actually you might have a lot of judgment. You might, you know, be looked at funny because actually, Sandra, wasn't your life supposed to be, you know, blissful and smooth and sailing, especially for women from my community, you know, black. I think minorities are so used to being labelled as the strong, black, independent woman that when we do find ourselves, you know, really struggling, adjusting the sleepless nights, the anxieties, not trying to be stereotyped, that we don't actually get the help that we need and so for me I found that the early days of motherhood were quite isolating even though I had friends I had people who you know were supportive I couldn't really show my full mask and I couldn't really show my full vulnerability in that sense. And then especially, you know, going through the maternity system as a fairly young looking Black mother who was navigating her way through being a mother for the first time, as well as not really understanding, you know, some of the other challenges that encompass being a mother, being pregnant, and also then being a black mother, we're on the receiving end of so many harmful stereotypes, as well as like really poor, poorer outcomes.

So I didn't get pain relief in my pregnancy, just in my labor, and my begs and pleaded for, you know, for them to check me, they sent me home five times, they told me that I was exaggerating my pain, my baby's heart rate dropped, they told me that I was over screaming and all of these horrible feelings I felt during that period that when I did struggle with my mental health after giving birth, I promised myself I was never going back to a place or a system that harmed me in my pregnancy and in my labor. And so I essentially just struggled and suffered in silence really I didn't tell anybody and I made sure that my house was um prim and proper and clean so that when the health visitor came to visit me and my baby my new baby I I didn't look like I was struggling especially because of the early interactions as well which I might go go into as we like progress with this conversation

yeah I mean there's some things you're saying that massively resonate with me and my experience actually um I was the same as you I was the first out of all my friends and you know my family to have a baby uh so none of my girlfriends had a baby and whilst they were really supportive I'd suddenly been found you know found myself with my priorities shifting and my brain somewhere else and so I felt like I got, I felt isolated. I felt like there were aspects of just being able to sort of try, and I wasn't really in the same place as them anymore. If we were meeting for, you know, those rare nights where you just like, okay, I'm going to get a babysitter, or, you know,

Rich is going to have the baby, and I'm going to go out and meet them for dinner. If they were running like 15 minutes late, 20, I was like, okay, I missed bath time and you're not here I missed bedtime you know I could have read one more book little things like that um and I remember I didn't have any girlfriends with the babies I didn't I missed the last bit of my pregnancy so I didn't get any of the sort of NCT community site you know knowing other young mums nearby new mums nearby I should say and I just found it really lonely, a lot of it. But that's without me feeling those extraneous pressures or judgments about how I should be coping,

or how open I can be, and how vulnerable I can be. I didn't experience that. So hearing you say it makes me think, I know what pressure is there without all that let alone with that thrown in there on top and it's interesting because until I was reading your book I think I mean there's a lot that's endemic in our culture that you don't really question until someone actually points it out and things like the trope of the strong black woman is so you know it's so present and of course the casual reaction to it is well that's a very positive image it's being seen as being strong is well isn't that a great thing sure but as we now know in modern parenting we encourage our kids to see vulnerability and being open about the things you find hard as being part of your strength but if you're just

a strong person then showing those chinks, firstly, it's undefined how that might manifest, but also it doesn't really allow them to be there in the first place. So I guess, and I guess at the time with your new baby, you're not even really able to, forming the thoughts in that way. You're just feeling one way on the inside and then trying to present way on the inside and then trying to present differently on the outside. But as I gather it, you were also subject to what is,

you know, it's called like microaggressions, interactions with healthcare providers who didn't know how to speak to you and undermined your voice. Yeah, and I'm so glad you touched on, you know, how it's perceived as a wonderful thing to be strong. And I definitely encourage, you know, people to find beauty in resilience. But, you know, for many women, women like myself, we don't have a choice but to be strong, even when we want to have, you know, be on the receiving end of care respect empathy and vulnerability as well and it we've glamorized you know the strength of women the strong black independent woman trope but actually it's very harmful especially in a health care setting or a maternity care setting

where actually for example black women are the least likely to get pain relief when asking for it that in itself has its knock-on effect black women are the least likely to get pain relief when asking for it um that in itself has its knock-on effect black women are the least likely to get support for postnatal depression or follow-up treatment again that links into us i've also perceiving ourselves as strong as well that we could bear everything and we don't need help or we don't need support in fact when i first told them or tried to share with my mom how i was feeling she's a typical Nigerian um Ibo woman who who's gone through so much bless her she's had four children by herself as a single mother she came from Nigeria all the way to England many many years ago and had to start

from scratch so when I told her that I didn't feel like myself I was feeling low I was feeling anxious so I couldn't get out of bed she she would say, why are you crying? You know, that's the accent. Like what, like you have an amazing life. Like what I had to go through, what she had to go through, sorry, was 10 times harder. You should be grateful. You should get on with it. And so even that guilt of, okay, am I, am I complaining? It's true. Our aunties, our mothers, our grandparents had it a lot harder than us what are we complaining about especially you know i had a supportive partner um we had a roof over our head we had income but the thing is with you you know sophie that with mental ill health of depression with anxiety with low mood of pregnancy you know those circumstances don't it helps but again a lot of the feelings are inexplainable you can't really explain why you're feeling the way you're feeling even with you know a healthy baby a roof over your head a

supportive partner you know and you know finances in place those voices that come into your head telling you you're not good enough or that you need to try harder and sometimes they can't be silent and that's where I fell into is you know feeling like okay I can't reach out to you know professional services because actually they've harmed me in my you know my labour experience and I don't feel like they you know actually want to give me that care and support that I really want and then also I can't go to my community because they will say that I'm complaining and also there's a heavy stigma around mental ill health. Growing up, I always thought that somebody who was depressed

or had mental health challenges, for example, was that crazy person running on the street, but naked. That was obviously very ignorant of me, but that's not the case. You know, it can be the person smiling. It can be the person laughing. It can be that person who had their home put together like myself um and that's where you know we need to as a community speak up share that we are struggling and also want like speak together on how we can find practical solutions of supporting or providing that support sharing our own lived experience as well. So I had to work a lot around the stigma and the shame

and the judgment that came with vocalizing my needs and trying to pursue help. So, yeah. Yeah, and I think you're right that we're much better at recognizing that the people feeling the worst on the inside might be the ones who are, you know, there and outwardly looking. I spoke to a woman not very long ago who had postpartum psychosis the worst on the inside might be the ones who are you know there and outwardly looking great and I spoke to a woman not very long ago who had postpartum psychosis and she spoke a lot about

this time when she went out for dinner and she had like bright bright lipstick on and did a smiley picture with a glass of champagne like first night out with my husband post baby she said this picture does not tell you what I was feeling the. You cannot judge it from this picture. This is what you know. It's not always obvious. It doesn't always present like you think. And also you can, I mean, obviously that's a very extreme thing, but I think with a new baby and all the hormones,

it's possible to feel lots of different things simultaneously. So you can be feeling, as you say, grateful and excited and blessed about your new baby, but also all the feelings of dread and the pressure of the responsibility and all of that stuff simultaneously. And I think that thing about your mum, it's very well-meaning, isn't it?

And people say, look, there could be this, that, and the other happening. Of course. But just because other things could be so much worse, doesn't mean that you it's not okay to be feeling like you're not coping I think we we recognize that quicker now but some of these things are still still catching up now and you know 2023 where we're at you know we're still still getting there aren't we with a lot of the the conversations around mental health it's definitely come on a lot since I was first a mom that's nearly 20 years ago now yeah oh wow yeah it's definitely a better a better

situation than it was then absolutely and so um when was it that you started the whatsapp group for the motherhood group yes so um after going through such a horrifying birthing experience and then, you know, being handed like leaflets and flyers to go to this play group and this stay and play area, and I tried to go to one or two, so I really did. When I went there, actually, it made my issues feel a lot heightened. Many of the times I was the only young and or black mother in the space. And so I felt, you know, not really welcomed, not really included.

And also I forgot things like my nappy wipes and things like that. It made me feel a lot. So anxious. Yeah, it made me feel so anxious. I thought, you know, I'm not going out. There's no point. I'm going to stay at home and I'm just going to talk to some people online and see where that gets me.

And out of that I think that was probably about six months um after giving birth um you know we had a whatsapp group and it kind of spiraled out of control so we had you know just like three of us and people would add their mum friends and their mum friends and then suddenly we had over a hundred mums in the in the you know the chat speaking about things you know, really mattered to us at the time, like how do we balance, you know, new motherhood and our relationships? How do we, you know, confide in family about the way we're feeling? What can we eat, you know, and things like that.

Things that services weren't really understanding or really bringing to the forefront. Again, there's so many different, like, cultural nuances and practices that a British-born Nigerian woman has. So, for example, like my mum always told me, make sure the moment your child is born, you give them water. And then my nurse would say, never give your child water until they're at least, you know, is it six or eight months or something like that? Or make sure, one hand, make sure your baby's sleeping with you in the bed. You know, that's like a practice that we do in Nigeria. That fine and then the guys are telling me don't do that you can get

you know sudden infant death make sure to sleep on this position on the cot and things like that so all of those conflicting advice kind of confused me so having that chat and having those other mothers who understood you know the blend and the the cultural practices that we should pick up or drop and you know just having that community that support really really helped and so we had our first event like event slash meetup and there were so many mothers it was in London but people came from like Nottingham and Bristol and Coventry and it was just nice being in a space where we saw so many mothers, mothers of colour with their children and babies and people cry, some people laugh. And that was,

you know, my first time and many other mothers' first time really, really feeling included, really feeling seen, really feeling heard and feeling like you had a supportive network or a village who just you just got it without having to over explain you know yeah why you wouldn't do certain things just because we just we just got it and that was in 2016 and that's how I started the motherhood group so the motherhood group was a whatsapp group that then turned into um a social enterprise so I've been doing that now for seven years, running it. And I've got a team, we've got offices in Lambeth Town Hall,

and we work with the NHS and deliver training programmes. And we have workshops and peer support, and we run campaigns every year. We have Black Maternal Mental Health Week UK, and we launched the first ever Black Maternal Health Conference that's now been spoken about in the House of Parliament. So a lot happened in those seven years that first started off as, you know, me being really frustrated, really angry and quite lonely as well to actually creating a movement and, you know, a safe space as well as a support hub for mothers who want care, who want support, but don't know really where to go or feel like services, don't have those culturally sensitive practices or support services as well. And now a word from our sponsor, and happily, this next section of the podcast is brought to you by

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people in my life over Christmas? So one idea is to go to a pantomime. Now this might be well and truly part of your family tradition anyway. I know it is in our house. We always go to the pantomime. I've been going since I was small. And in fact, I've already taken my youngest with my mum. So they went with grandma and we had a lovely time. So if you look for family-friendly Christmas pantomimes in theatres in your area, the whole family can go. They're multi-generational.

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please let me know how you get on with your adventures. Share some pictures. If you do it on social with the hashtag Clark's culture guides, I will see them. Also remember Clark's in-store fitting service is available in all Clark stores stores that sell kids' shoes. And each pair of shoes nurtures happy, healthy movement at every stage of your child's walking development and beyond. I can testify to that firsthand. You can shop Clark's first shoe collection now or book an appointment for an in-store fitting at Clarks.com. I'm from Clark's and everybody here is spinning plates. I want to wish you a very happy Christmas. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes, led by expert instructors on the Peloton app.

Call yourself a runner. Peloton All Access Membership Separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Well, firstly, I think what you've achieved is incredible and it's making me smile hearing you talk about it because I love the idea of the power of creating around you something that's empowered you to have that voice and go back into you of the past and basically say don't worry in the future I will give you the voice you are struggling to find right now. That's really beautiful and so impressive because when you were talking just then about

even something as subtle and small as the fact that you might talk to a healthcare provider who has no idea about your heritage and the things that your mother's passing to you as the things coming down the generations, about giving the water to the baby and about co-sleeping, that when they get dismissed in an office, they're not just saying to you,

it's not just, it's like showing absolutely zero understanding of anything about all the parts that have made you, you. We all, some of our upbringing and the advice of our family is a place we turn to again and again. So being sat there, feeling like you're about to enter into this new world, I'm a new mum, I don't know what my baby needs,

I don't understand what every cry needs. My mum's giving me this advice, oh no, don't listen to your mum, she doesn't know what she's talking about either. That's actually incredibly dismissive, but also so, it's so sort of slack-handed in terms of actually trying to support a new mum to not understand what you might be hearing from your community from your family members that are really well intended never mind what the statistics are

around them it literally it comes from a place of love and you don't want someone just to dismiss it as if it's just like a bit of dodgy advice you got from someone at a bus stop. You know what I mean? It's part of your, it might be how you were raised. It might be what your sister's currently doing with her kids or something. You know what I mean?

It's a bigger issue than that. So I think it'd be great to hear. And I know some of the statistics surrounding black motherhood. I mean, it's just things such as the fact that black women are four times more likely to die in the sort of later stages of pregnancy, birth, and in the sort of six to eight weeks afterwards as well. That's in the UK. That is a shocking statistic. so I guess when you are when you're first setting up this group how how much of a big picture are you seeing how much of it are you thinking of it as something that's got a race element or is it more just feeling very personal to you at that time yeah so um it's funny because well it's not

really funny actually but it's interesting because when I was going through my labor experience and the midwife was really cold towards me and was ignoring me and rolling her eyes every time I cried or screamed wow um yeah that's literally what happened rolling her eyes and saying oh come on you're not even having the contractions yet and I'm telling her oh I feel it um and then the anathesis coming in and saying I'm not going to administer any epidural or any pain relief until you stop crying. Because I was crying and she said she's not going to give me any. And she actually left the room. She walked out and she shut the door and left me there.

And I cried and then I had to pick up myself and hold firm in my tears, wipe my tears, firm in my cries. And then she came back in about an hour later to then give me the epidural um my crying my you know over vulnerability irritated her and so I I knew I knew that my race had a lot to do with my treatment I actually said it I said you're treating like quote unquote verbatim you're treating me this way because I'm black and they didn't address it they didn't say oh no we're not they just ignored that and that comment um but I knew it I didn't didn't know this I didn't know the data I didn't know the stats I

was not involved in this work at all my experience has literally shaped has shaped the work that I do today but I knew that was the the reason and I told my husband that's why they treated me that that way when my daughter sadly passed because meconium stool on the way out and her heart rate dropped and it was really traumatic and they finally did believe me when I said her head was crowning the midwife then started asking me a few questions that weren't really related to my pregnancy or my birth so things like oh so Sandra you know what do you what do you do for a living and oh okay you know where where would you work and all those questions I started to tell her then I could see her body language it shifted and it

changed and so I immediately knew that she had stereotyped me um I don't know if you want I want to list off the stereotypes that are associated with black women, but I knew that she had changed her opinion of me in that moment. And then she gave me a new room, a nice room where I was by myself. She offered tea and coffee and toast and was really, really lovely. But it was far too late. I really wish that I had that. I had that just even if it was a fraction of that treatment prior to those that interaction being nice looking me in the eye apologizing if I was you know if I felt a type of way reassuring me being empathetic showing me with showing me kindness in a report that I was involved in by birth rights inquiry that I co-chaired black women said that we felt we were the least likely to be on the receiving end of

kindness and that that you know rings so true to me because kindness it's really hard to I guess measure but you know when you haven't been on the receiving end of kindness and empathy and it's really hard to explain but you you know it and then she was really lovely to me and then that was that in that was that incident. But then after kind of setting up the group and hearing, OK, one or two and then three, four, ten, twenty, loads of accounts of experiences that were too similar to mine, that echoed my experience and worse. Some other mothers, you know, weren't fortunate enough even to carry their babies home, you know, based on a lot of the, you know, the being ignored and dismissed and their symptoms not being picked up.

And, you know, their experiences really made me really, really horrified and sad to know that I was lucky enough to still carry my babies home, even though my second daughter was really ill, and I did raise concerns and that was dismissed as well and there's still a legal case going on but the trust did admit to a breach of duty with picking up her symptoms and not attending to her needs despite me raising my concerns four times on different occasions. So yeah I didn't know the data data i didn't know the stats but doing the work speaking to people my experiences and then the big report that came out in 2018 by marion knight who is fantastic the embrace report that showed that black women were five times more likely to die and have complications now we're you know four to 3.7 times more likely um to have these complications and

there's a whole other heap of other um issues that we have we're more likely um to have these complications and there's a whole other heap of other um issues that we have we're more likely to have depression we're more likely to have neonatal deaths still births miscarriages um hypertension it's just the list goes on but these aren't really standalone events so they all interlink and it really boils down to us not being listened to and not you know and also us not trusting the system we're fearful many of us are fearful of it we have our guards up we're hyper aware even now I'm pregnant with my third child and I still I know there's a lot that has changed and it kind of has slightly improved but I think it's also because of the amount of awareness raising that has gone on

that's made us know how to be a lot more vocal a lot more um you know know how to advocate for ourselves and also we know how to pick up our own symptoms now so probably that's probably why there's been a shift in the the data but I am very hyper aware and I shouldn't have to be I should be able to kind of relax and trust that those in this space or this sector you know have my best interest at heart and will do their their jobs so yeah that's that's a bit of background into you know why it started and how I found out about this work um about the the data sorry and the statistics surrounding black maternal health and black maternal mental health but I'm just really glad that at the very least there

people now are talking about it. People that had no idea. People that worked with supported, you know, black mothers, pregnant people, had no idea about this data. That's scary as well to know that they're speaking to and they're supporting black women, but they have no idea actually that the woman you're engaging with has a five times more chance of not leaving this hospital with her baby and that should be something that everybody knows especially if you are working in the maternity care system or um or the ward and that's why part of the work that my organization does we train so we've got commissioned by quite a few nhs trusts to you know um deliver training services on you know making sure that they understand you know the key barriers cultural differences and also how to provide that safe cultural care towards black birthing people so that we have you know really good outcomes and experiences

tailoring care to our specific needs and during the during the maternity period as well so yeah well I mean I think I mean there's so much to think about that I think firstly I think it's amazing what you're doing but I also feel like why why is it taken until you you know um that's so recent Sandra you know this should be like maybe something that i don't know your mum or someone not much younger than your mum started the ball rolling on very vocally it's it's unnerving that it takes a kind of zeitgeist moment for people to actually start having the right kind of conversations but then i guess you know you're on the receiving end of a lot of things. I mean, the UK has the biggest health pay gap in the whole of Europe. So the funding that goes into, you know, illnesses pertaining to men

is given so much more funding than any pertaining to women. So we've already, that's why we're starting in the UK anyway. You know, little things I hadn't really thought of until I was reading your book properly about the fact that every time I've read a biology book, every time I've sat in a doctor's waiting room, most of the images on the posters or the, you know, the anatomical models will be on white bodies. So that already you're one, that's leaving you outside the door as well you know that how's that meant to make you feel and the fact that you talk about something as simple and essential as kindness I mean kindness in childbirth is is nurture that's actually the memories you

take away you know they're doing amazing medical care in your peripheral vision but the experience you remember is the exchanges you have with people because we're the patient. So it's the handhold, it's the kind words, it's the tenderness, it's the softly spoken bits. That's what you take away in those moments and that's what bolsters you or can make you feel like, I'm freaked out.

I don't like that woman being in the room while I'm having a baby. And you shouldn't have been, even being able to be aware of your midwife having a shift in how she's dealing with you while you're also in labour. Imagine your brain having to think about all of that. Oh, she's treating me differently now. Oh, she's asking me about my profession.

It's so naked. It's like, I'm sort of embarrassed for her in a way and I'm glad you got your tea and toast but we can kind of see the cogs working right yeah it's shocking and so okay we've got you feeling vulnerable and you know a little bit alone and lost in it all you've got the whatsapp group you've got the snowball oh golly there's loads of other people out there it resonates with them too I recognize that story oh wow it happened to them okay hang on a minute what is really happening here so at what point do you take it from a whatsapp group a community a load of lovely people you feel safe with and turn

it into something it's got a little bit more drive in it where do you get from there to like this organization you have now yeah it was definitely a gradual process it didn't happen overnight um and it was a whatsapp group um and then we had our first meetup event maybe three months after chatting and chatting and I think after the first after the first meet up and there was so many mums that came into that building to the point where the venue manager was annoyed because there were so many buggy's inside blocking the hallway outside and he wasn't really aware that there'll be that many children and he just thought it was like a little cafe cafe sort of um coffee morning but it wasn't

it was a full-blown pat's space and I could see oh my god goodness there's a need when I could see that there was a need a genuine need a hunger for the space I said okay we have to do another one and it kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger but again at the time a lot of the conversations were very much focused on our overall well-being being mothers adjusting to life definitely we touched on the um you know the discrimination and health inequalities that we face in maternity care and postnatally but we also incorporated other things like just relation just how we can relate to our partners our friends and our community as well so it's very much uh non-clinical non-clinical and more so community

based and that's probably how we kind of appealed to the wider community and then after the so that happened for about two to three years after the embrace support and the Black Lives Matter movement, that's when we started getting a lot more traction from the healthcare sector. Bearing in mind, I had approached quite a few organisations beforehand to say, listen, these are the mothers we're speaking to. They're saying this. Many mothers are struggling with postnatal depression and basically none are going to get any professional support we're having to bring in um you know midwives and doctors and nurses that happen to be black mothers as well and bring them into the space to actually say you know these are the practical steps that you could heal yourself you can get support many mothers turn to more holistic care practices. So meditation and eating better and going to their church and finding, you know, community and they stayed away from

clinical settings. And so after the George Floyd incident, that obviously was horrifying, but it struck the world on an international and national basis that's when we I saw a massive shift in the way that everyone spoke about the role that race and racism play plays a part in every system yeah in fact a lot of my friends know this and they were saying Sandra you're crazy why are you speaking so openly you know about blackness and being black? Like, aren't you afraid of not getting a job again? Aren't you afraid of being seen as this overly pro black person? And that's not the kind of person that they saw me as this sort of, you know, massive campaigner. But I knew that I was just like, wait a minute, there's an issue. there was nobody's really speaking about it as much as

seven eight years ago and if they are it's probably behind closed doors or amongst ourselves and I'm not really seeing mainstream um you know campaigns around this what's happening and I had to be true to myself um especially because I was writing letters of complaints to my trust to say, hey, I had a horrible experience. This happened. Hey, this nurse did that to me and said that to me and she shouldn't have. And now, you know, my child is sick because I raised concerns

and you guys told me that I was over worrying. And actually now this data backs up that my feelings weren't incorrect. It wasn't all in my head. I wasn't being a hysterical black woman who just wanted to cause a bit of drama I had validity in what I was saying and how I was feeling um I have things to back me up now and so I think the shift was when um after the George Floyd and then birthrights approached approached me and asked me to be involved in their their national inquiry which was I can't remember the year now I'm going to forgive me probably about three three years ago so up until that point we had been you know working as a

community organization supporting the community and definitely raising awareness but mainly feeding ourselves to kind of equip ourselves on how to you know manage manage and balance motherhood but the communication between us the healthcare sector and also parliament government was disconnected there wasn't really involving us in their conversation and we wasn't really involving them but i think that inquiry and the the the um national inquiry into racial injustice really broke that that barrier and it made sure that the community and everybody was speaking to each other so I co-chaired that and that's when it kind of went viral all over the news and newspapers as well as the the campaigners five times more who did their reporters their report

and their petition as well and people started speaking a lot more about it a lot more groups started popping up speaking about the same issues so it wasn't just me and a few others anymore it was quite a few people um and we had backing from you know people like mp bell and you know dr karen joe as another other quite prominent people in the space who were also taking the stand and that's probably when I think it became less of a be careful, don't talk too loudly about race and the role of racism to more so an agenda that everybody has now as a priority, health inequalities in Black maternal care. And that's where I can see the natural shift.

So from then till now, then we've had, like, quite a few projects with, you know, for example, guys in St Thomas Hospital have commissioned us over the next three years to, you know, really continue the work that we've been doing, and that's through the impact on Urban Health Fund, and we've been able to have now community space in Lambeth Town Hall, you know, where we have many black mothers coming into our physical space to use it to take part in research and projects that can really um allow us to have our voices heard um have our voices amplified get involved say okay we now have power to make change you know we no longer are speak being spoken to and about we're now getting involved

um so that the care is mapped out based on what we would like and what we think is acceptable and safe and practical and makes sense to to us and and I'm really glad to see that that massive shift because based on that inquiry that I was involved in three years ago over the last over the last three years sorry you can hear mothers saying in their experiences that they felt unsafe they felt dehumanized they felt like they didn't have any consent or choice in how or where they gave birth they were coerced for example myself even I was induced without even knowing my first first daughter it sounds very strange but if no one's telling you this is what I'm going to do this is why I'm doing it yeah you're not

really giving them you know clarity in the process and so they just say I'm going to just check you and they end up giving you a membrane sweep which then triggers your waters to be to break that's not giving consent for induction you know and you find we found that many mothers from my community had similar things done to them without being fully explained and feeling like they didn't really have a choice as well yeah yeah it was isn't it what a violation I mean it's a that's what it is it's a basic and also how are you supposed to have trust again if someone says I'm just going to check you anyone else saying that again is going to remember this time well i had someone say that to me and then oh my goodness yeah i mean i suppose i suppose what all of this need i suppose

that is you you know you were saying yourself the statistics have have been there, you know, it's been on the table a few times over. For a while, yeah. But it must have needed someone like you who can speak about it with passion, with the information right at your fingertips, but also a lived experience. That's a pretty, that combination is pretty, it's powerful. You know, it has all the points of the triangle there. But I wonder wonder were you someone that was always able to advocate and speak like this before you've found this need

and this drive with what you're doing yeah I think thank you for that by the way Sophia I think a level of me just had to not care so I've always kind of been a person that if I feel feel or felt like I was being taken advantage of there was some sort of injustice um I had to be the one to speak up and I think as time went on naturally I was conscious about not being perceived as okay over Sandra again here we go she's gonna she's gonna raise her concerns and so just yeah naturally I think I was that kind of person but also when I truly believe that there is a problem and there's an issue and where I'm being silenced I will give it enough chance to see okay maybe they're doing it by accident maybe it's not malicious maybe there's another you know there's a motive behind why

they're not really addressing this issue but after a while when you see actually it is it is to do with you know race or um other factors that somebody just cannot cannot help then I I will speak up and that's what happened I know black women my friends they were they were so scared for me so I'll make sure you you know you have to involve you-Black mothers too. Try your best to involve white mothers because they won't listen to you if it's just us. And I kept saying to them, no, but that's not, I know we all have challenges, but this issue right here. Yeah, this is mine. I own this one. Yeah.

You don't need to dilute it or, yeah, it's powerful because it's got the intensity of what actually needs to be sorted. And I suppose for you, sometimes it must be hard. Also, people must come to you with all sorts of experiences and you've got to try and filter that. Like, thank you for sharing your experience with me, but also it's a lot for you to have on your shoulders when people, their most, I mean, you know, it's a traumatic experience they've had and then they bring it to you

and you're like, oh, that's another one. And also you had another baby during all this time, which is another thing that's just working out. So if your current youngest, I think is just one year older than my youngest. So was she, must've been, yeah, 2018, I think. Is that right? Yes, 2018, yeah, correct. So you said that's around the time that the embrace report came out and all this so I think came out so you must have had a lot you were dealing with around your pregnancy then too and your new motherhood again part two yeah I think I think between the first and second pregnancy you know they were almost identical even though

um a year and a half apart but I've had a gap now so my youngest is five she'll be turning six in January and so being in the space working sitting on panels and tables and knowing really that there are they are trying to lower these disparities and these challenges that black mothers are facing in pregnancy and beyond but now being pregnant now I think for me this has been probably the the best kind of time for me for me to really analyze what has changed and what is what hasn't changed what are the main issues um and even though I can still see the stats have lowered the interaction still very much feel um not based on genuine I want to be kind I want to be caring I want to be I want to ask questions because I want to know more about this mother and help her

sometimes it does feel a little bit like oh no I know about this campaign that's going on or the work that's going on in this space she's a black woman I have to tick this box and that box otherwise I could get in trouble, you know, it doesn't look good for me, people, and I even don't even want people to know sometimes I'm the person behind a lot of this work, because I don't want their treatment to be shifted based on not wanting to actually really help me, but based on fear, and so that punitive sort of punishment element has come into it, which some might say it's still good, Sandra. It's better for them to treat you better based on fear than to treat you bad. But actually, I just want it to be a human instinct.

Like, how would you treat your cousin, your auntie, your sister? Would you treat them in a loving, kind and caring manner with empathy on the receiving end of kindness and choice and explaining options to her? with empathy on the receiving end of kindness and choice and explaining options to her if so just treat somebody else a new mother in the same way um as well as it doesn't seem hard but sadly you'd be surprised people um just don't have that that level of patience and care and that's why i say if you really want to be a nurse or a midwife or work in the health sector you have to have a passion for wanting to help people yeah genuinely wanting to care and you have to address your own bias we all have biases I mean human nature is for us to look at something and make a judgment now it's it gets very dangerous if you're if somebody's you know life is in your hands and you have harmful preconceived notions about that person's culture, values, religions, age, and then treat them differently based on that. I was on a podcast a few years ago, Sophie, and I was quite surprised for one of the chief midwives to say, or the head midwife to say that her team isn't,

they don't have anyone racist. I'm so sorry, Sandra. I don't know why. I'm sure the data isn't wrong, but she never sees people in her hospital treat anybody black with ill-mannered. And then she gave an example that one time, or she gets frustrated with hearing somebody on the phone

who is working with customers that has a very strong Asian accent for example she gets very irritated and frustrated and she wants them to she was quite honest and I appreciated that but then I kind of raised the concern said to her okay now imagine that person giving birth and you're getting frustrated at their accent that's going to tailor or alter the way that you treat that person, whether you realize it or not. And that could be the difference between you being more patient, more softly spoken, giving her more options, listening to her concerns and maybe taking them on board, maybe even being more proactive in some of the remedies than versus being more short, sharp, quick, irritated. When I was crying during the epidural and they said, I'm not going to give it

to you until you stop crying and left the room. If I was a white lady, maybe she would have been like, I'm so sorry you're crying. Should I a few minutes maybe should I should I come back what do you need I didn't get that and I know it's because she didn't feel like she she had the patience for me specifically and again um many many mothers from my community we feel we have to have our CVs on our shoulders before we are on the receiving end of this treatment and it's sad because I know after the question she asked me what do you do for a living where do you live what you know my husband wasn't my baby daddy he was my husband that's what probably she assumed that's when the treatment and her tone change in her body language change but why do we have to

everybody deserves to be on the receiving end regardless of your age or sexual background whether you're married or not whether you live here or there it doesn't matter and that's what I think needs to change is that human at a human humanistic just just be not be a nice person I think that would help the world turn a lot smoothly like in all walks of life by the way but also i do i do kind of feel like your midwife now or if you're seeing when you go for your appointments must be like here we go it would have been quite spectacular but if you for that midwife if she said what do you do and you'd gone actually i i run an organization i'm senior of an organization looking into disparities and how black mothers are treated

in childbirth and aftercare she would have been like okay i know yeah um but you're right and i i suppose i just my heart goes out to well to to you in those experiences but just anybody that look i've got so many birth stories in my head from my girlfriends, and anyone that experiences, you know, that tactless comment from the healthcare professional, you always remember it, you never forget it. But to have it as a, to have the association

that it might have come at you because of a judgment made of the colour of your skin is unacceptable, even if it only happens once, that's not acceptable, let alone for it to be part of how our system is set up at the moment so what you're doing is brilliant work what's okay when you're having your baby do you feel like okay I'm gonna need to like you know shift the mantle a bit or you so like pumped up for keeping doing what you're doing you've got plans I mean I get the impression you're gonna have lots of things in your head I don't see you slowing down but yeah I can't slow down some of your help I can't no I honestly I don't I don't want to slow down um I feel like

a lot has changed since myself and others have been involved in this work there's a lot more that needs to be done there's a lot of works going on behind the scenes that I know you know will come into fruition later on um it takes time it's not going to happen overnight sadly um but I think even just having my baby and going through it again has helped me refresh my memory of the gaps that's that's um needed that's needed to be bridged um the areas where services need to understand some of the barriers. And then also, I think, there needs to be an involvement also.

Now the healthcare sector, we understand, for the most part. Other sectors need to know because mothers go back into work, financial services, working in education and other sectors. Again, if you're a black mother and you're more likely to have depression and the least likely to get support,

and you're more likely to struggle with baby loss, miscarriages, hypertension, hypertension, I think HR needs to know this. They need to know how to support you on that. And so I guess for me, the next space is really infiltrating other sectors and other organizations that also interact and support all mothers but specifically um black ethnic minority mothers as well the support is needed on a grand scale and also preconception before becoming a mother you need to know all of the data that that not to give you anxiety and make you scared but to know how to prepare yourself as well what's to come and also what you're facing

um because again as you mentioned earlier on I don't know why it's taken this long for some sort of change to happen or some sort of attention to happen if our parents were more likely to to die and have complications and our grandparents and it's always been this way why why now why now yeah and yeah yeah but I guess you know you you'll be able to see your work very close to home with your own daughters as they grow up and the conversation I suppose you must feel a little bit like you know by pulling at the thread of your experience in your first pregnancy and first childbirth, it must have like pulled and pulled until this whole appears of like all the areas that need help, all the bits that need darning, all the bridges that need to be built. But I mean,

how powerful that for your daughters in that generation, they will be in a different version of the UK actually, because of the work you're doing I mean do you feel like do you feel a bit like what's happened from that that experience has actually given you your I hate talking about like I don't know is it legacy or your purpose I suppose it must be your yeah your purpose I think is probably more appropriate words 110% it's definitely given me it's part of my purpose I always say I've turned my pain into my purpose and it sounds very cheesy and cliche but it's the truth the the pain that I experienced you know giving birth and subsequently after I couldn't even speak about my experiences about crying I'd always burst into tears felt really like I just felt that it wasn't fair like it's just this

is just not fair injustice injustice injustice and so I guess you know being quite open at the time where there was a heavy taboo around birthing experiences perinatal mental health speaking about race and racism and then just seeing a lot more people speaking up so just a catalyst effect of just people being more honest using social media other platforms to speak about experiences relating to what I've just mentioned and then now knowing that my daughters who have will definitely have a different experience they have to because you know I'm hoping by the time they get to you know child bearing age that they will be a lot more confident in themselves and also services are a lot a lot more aware of the disparities and they're willing to put in procedures in place to support them

you know changing policies is a big thing for us and now they've put their setting you know they are setting or speaking of setting targets to address disparities for black maternal health care in the uk and remember this is not just a national thing this issue obviously is in america as well so it's not just a british thing it's an international thing and um in some states it's even like some black women are like seven times more likely to die. And it's also not a socio-economical thing as well, because you have people like Serena Williams and Beyonce who are extremely successful, who are black, who have had similar experiences to other black women who come from very different backgrounds. So we have to be honest and say race is a factor. who come from very different backgrounds.

So we have to be honest and say race is a factor. It's not the only factor, but it's definitely the main challenge that we need to address. So just being able to speak about it. You know, for example, you've given me a platform to speak about this. This is just amazing, you know, to know that people care and people are listening.

And that's, for me, important. Oh, it's vital. And also I was thinking when you said like your daughters also will have thinking when you said like your your daughters also will have something that you didn't have as much of which is the ability to be vulnerable and let you know when things are hard for them which is an amazing tool I think that's I do think that's something that's a more recent thing for how we're raising people now we have much more focus on that that ability to be open and you know model model failure model weakness all these things as parents we're encouraged to

and I suppose you know they won't quite understand the massive significance of what you're doing right now because you know I'm sure they're not thinking at all about what it feels like to be pregnant or have a baby or anything like that but when they get there they're going to be like wow and they're going to feel like this is actually kind of cool we we helped spark this this change that's exciting isn't it in that way that they was they probably will think that actually when they're old enough that yeah they they their birth they're coming into the world help spark this change yeah absolutely and there'll be the chronology as well of how long you've been part of this new chapter which is cool and um i can't well i wish you all the best with your with everything that happens with baby number three thank you you're very peaceful happy childbirth and and beyond i was

thinking i don't know what gender you're having but you were saying like chloe and zoe and sophie could kind of fit in with that you you know. Zoe, Chloe, Sophie. There you go. Not too bad, you know. Yeah, is your name a French name by any chance? It is French, yeah. So, well, I mean, that's where the derivation is. And it comes, I was always told this when I was little,

so the Soph part comes from like sophisticated, Sophocles, the Greek for wisdom. So, you know, comes with it, some fancy stuff. You don't always have to live up to it, but that's where it comes from. Thank you. I will update you on the name when I find out and release the sex to the world.

But definitely we'll put Sophie in the list of names. Yeah, put it in the app. Exciting. New babies, new chapters. It's always a good thing thank you so much sandra what a brilliant chat i can't wait to see what what happens for you next i'm going to be watching for sure see what a woman all good i think that's, it's just exciting when someone has a life experience and it actually makes them sort of find their purpose. I think purpose is such a thing. I never really used to think about it when I was younger. I never used to think about legacy and I never used to think about purpose. encouraged me to think a little bit more about it and I do think a lot of it is just about leaving the world a little bit better than you found it even if it's only everyday kindnesses it doesn't

have to be big bold strokes however if you are passionate about making change and you do feel that call to action then how amazing we need lots of that in the world don't we and yes meanwhile what is my legacy um well at the moment it's hopefully making a few few people feel a bit better about this christmas that's coming our way that'd be nice it's not a bad start and um i've got a day off tomorrow at home and i'm really looking forward to it it's been amazing to do this tour but it's always quite tricky doing the juggle of home and I'm really looking forward to it it's been amazing to do this tour but it's always quite tricky doing the juggle of home and away and I have a brilliant support network of people helping with the kids but that being said I've got one week to go and then it's just pure togetherness all the way until January and I'm really really looking forward to that just kind of

I think it's been a joy to do this tour knowing that after I can just actually just go, right, pass me some mulled wine and some devil's on horseback and let's have Christmas. And I was a bit worried I'd be Christmassed out, but I'm not, I'm still here for it. Let's keep going. When I get home, I've got to finish decorating my tree.

We put it up on Monday. I did a fair amount actually. It's's looking decent but it needs a bit more decoration and i don't know how you are with your decorations and your tree i am definitely it's not just maximalism it's also just quite like a slightly scattered gun thing so i just keep chucking loads of decorations on a standing back and having a look but i want it to look like bountiful and loads of color and fun i'll take a picture and post it so you can having a look but I want it to look like bountiful and loads of colour and fun I'll take a picture and post it so you can have a look see what you reckon but I do I do like it all and we get all the same decorations out and I've actually only bought one new decoration

this year I used to buy allow myself a couple every year but this year I just found when we got our tree the place where we got the tree had loads of decorations and one of them was a sparkly ketchup bottle so i got that so that's on my tree now and of course we've had the obvious thing where you open up the box and then you smash a couple of old baubles but all my favorites are intact so this bodes well it's a good omen anyway um if you're coming to one of the shows the remaining shows whoever got left um thinking when this goes out on monday i'll only have cardiff and bristol and birmingham so if i'll see you there thank you so much can't wait if you've already been thank you so much if you're just here for the podcast guest thank you so much basically whatever brings you my way thank you and i will speak to you next week

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