Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 123: Heather James

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

Heather James is best known to us all as the mum of Deborah James, the beautiful bowelbabe, who I interviewed for Spinning Plates 3 years ago. That was the year before her premature death at the age of 40, from bowel cancer.Heather explained how she is grieving but working. Not only working in her day job as a gymnastics teacher, but also doing everything that Deborah would have continued with - including campaigning to highlight April as Bowel Cancer Awareness month.Deborah spent the last weeks of her life at her mum and dad's house in the summer of 2022 surrounded by her family. Heather and her husband Alistair found themselves looking after Deborah and, to everyone's surprise, hosting Prince William when he came to their garden to make Deborah a Dame. Heather talked about caring for Deborah when she came home to die, but said Deborah's zest for life - and campaigning - meant that far from going quiet, it was a busy time of fun, outings, a book, a rose and of course, a Damehood.It struck me that Heather is everything you would hope to be, as a mum in such a dreadful circumstance.  She is planning to life life to the full, as Deborah wanted her to. And we spoke, just before her son's wedding where the entire family were planning to party and celebrate just as Deborah would have done if she were still here. And speaking as someone who witnessed her 40th birthday party in full swing, boy, did Deborah know how to party!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello. Do I sound older to you? I'm now 45, since you last heard my little voice.

Had a birthday. Love a birthday. You last heard my little voice. Had a birthday. Love a birthday. Funny thing, yesterday night I was exhausted because I'd been, I had a party on my birthday, April 10th. I know you know when my birthday is. Everybody knows when my birthday is. Probably. But I had a party and then yesterday, which was the 11th,th day after, I was pretty knackered because I didn't have much sleep after the party. And so last night I get into bed and I'm like, oh, I'll record my little introduction to the podcast and I recorded something for you. And I sound terrible. I mean, I don't think lying down is a good place to record because you just, well, when you're very tired.

I just sounded a little bit like I'd been doped or something. It was like me kind of being like this. I just don't think you would have appreciated it. So now I speak to you from Friday afternoon, Friday the 12th of April. The sun is shining. It's a really beautiful day. My house is looking flipping gorgeous because. It's a really beautiful day. My house is looking flipping gorgeous because I've got tons of beautiful flowers. I got flowers from some friends. I got flowers from Richard. And it just looks gorgeous. I love it. I can see what Elton was all about when he went into his mad flower phase. I don't know if it's ended. He

might still be mad keen on the flowers. But yeah, it's just a glorious way to live. So maybe 45 for me is about that. It's about flowers. It's about caftans. I wore a kind of pink caftan with feathered arms and a diamante neckline for my birthday because I've decided that's also about me. I'm just recording in here, darling. Can you give me two minutes? That's Richard with his tea. Look, he just put the sound of the... Close the door, darling. Honestly, born in a barn. He hasn't shut the door. He said, all right, silently, and then left it open. That's what I have to deal with, guys. Anyway, I've always had a really good week i've been songwriting i'm in the studio today and i've been in the studio with ed harcourt and niall rogers yeah i know that was actually really

fun and would you believe it we've done something kind of funky i do like it i like it a lot anyway i'm in the sitting room which is kind of poignant because that is where i interviewed this week's guest her name is heather james and i use kind of poignant because that is where I interviewed this week's guest her name is Heather James and I use the word poignant because it's also the room where I interviewed her daughter Deborah James now this is the first time I've had the mother of a previous guest on the podcast and of course the extra level of poignancy is um because Deborah's no longer with us. So I'd actually listened back to my previous conversation with Deborah before I had Heather come over. I'd met Heather really briefly at Deborah's 40th birthday, the birthday that ended up being Deborah's last birthday before she died. And they're such a lovely warm family and then I listened back to the

conversation and it was so it meant so much to me not just because Deborah was such a you know amazing woman with so much force and not just because I knew when we met that she was not going to be around for much longer, but also because I just really, really liked her. We got on really well. We're the same age, so we had lots of common ground. I'm a teeny tiny bit older than her, but not much. So, you know, a lot of our reference points were the same and everything was so similar,

but then we had this stark difference in that she knew she was very, very unwell and that there wasn't going to be a bit of her life when she wasn't someone with cancer. So as I sat down to talk to Heather, who sat in the same chair that Deborah sat in, it really got me actually. It was emotional. But it was also lovely because Heather is lovely. And the reason why it was fitting that we spoke and we are putting this conversation out in april is because this is bowel cancer awareness month so heather has been doing lots to continue the legacy that her daughter set off with raising awareness and raising money

because there is the bowel babe fund for cancer research uk which i think deborah's aim was to raise i think it's half a million it's now raised over 13 million thanks to generosity from the public which will go towards research awareness some very specific targeted fundraising into um different aspects of basically affecting it so that the goal is that when someone receives the diagnosis like Deborah did, it will not affect their life in the way that it means that they don't get to continue for many more years.

She would like to get people more time post-diagnosis. And bowel cancer is the fourth most diagnosed cancer in the, the fourth most common cancer in the UK, I should say. But because of its nature, people tend to avoid going to the doctor. So as per the wishes of Deborah and Heather and Cancer Research UK and me, I would like to just remind you, if you don't already know, all the things you should be looking out for. So if there's any change in your bowel habits, we've got to get over the taboo of talking about

poo, guys and gals. So if you notice any change, is anything that's unusual for you, if you have any pain or discomfort in your abdomen, if you find you're going to the loo more often, if you're not going to the loo as much if there's blood when you poo any of these things get yourself to the gp they have seen it all before and they will be glad you walked in the door unintentional rhyme there darlings and um yeah just we've got to avoid the shame and actually you know when i knew i was talking to heather actually speaking to my kids about it all and i thought it is it is something we feel naturally very private about and there's nothing wrong with feeling private about going to the loo but if there's something wrong you do need to let someone

know so they can check you out and most of the time it won't be cancer but sometimes it might be and the earlier it's caught the better it turns out right on to the next bit what do you need to know so Heather is a lovely mum. She has given birth to three children. She teaches aerobics to kids. And we had such a great conversation. And I don't need to say any more than that. I will leave you with her very lovely voice and I'll see you on the other side. Heather, it's absolutely such a pleasure to have you over today. And it's funny, as you started to sit down, I found myself feeling suddenly incredibly emotional because I've had your daughter's voice separate in my ears

for the last couple of days. I did something I never do. I listened back to the entirety of our conversation from when I recorded with her. And I say I never listened back because like lots of people I find listening to myself back excruciating. Like horrible. But it was so lovely to have her voice in my ears. And now not only is this the first time I've ever had the mother of one of my guests do the podcast, so that's a nice thing, but you're sitting in exactly the same seat where she was sitting, as am I, in the same place I was sitting.

And it's just bringing all of those memories back from when I first got to have such a great conversation with Deborah. And the timing is completely appropriate because we are putting this out in April, which is all Bowel Cancer Awareness Month. And this was helped organise by the Bowel Babe Fund and the relationship they have with Cancer Research UK. And so I suppose we can start with that

because you have sort of continued the mantle of this. We have. At first, we didn't know how it was going to pan out. Amazed at the amount raised. But Deborah was so adamant before she died, she wanted the Bulbay Fund set up. And when it was, we thought 250,000 would be amazing. It's now reached, what, 13 million.

So it's just unbelievable. And then I thought it would finish. But as a family, we all thought, she works so hard, you know, Sophie. We've got to keep this going and keep this awareness going and the awareness and the research will help save more lives and wouldn't that be a great thing I know Deb was up there saying come on mum let's get even more money you know yeah and more awareness out there and I'm amazed how many people can now talk about poo. Isn't it incredible? Isn't it incredible? And I can tell you I've got first-hand stories of people who have gone to the

doctor and got themselves checked out purely because of the fact that Deborah and all the work she did and all her communicating just flipped the taboo of being open about your bodies and what's happening there and going to the doctor and just getting checked out if anything is irregular I was brought up in an era where you didn't talk about poo or anything and so I was oblivious to the symptoms of bowel cancer in fact I don't think I'd even heard about cancer and so you know it it was all new to me as a mother and that now has changed and I hope more people will now see symptoms and signs it's on toilet rolls it's on you know packaging and I think Deborah dressing up as a poo was the best thing. It's kind of phenomenal, isn't it, really?

And actually what I love is what you said about growing up in a house where you didn't talk about poo. I actually had a conversation with one of my kids last night about it and I thought this would never have happened when I was a child, actually. No. Those things were just private. And look, instinctively, I think humans do like to be private about going to the loo. I don't think that's an unusual thing.

But I think not being embarrassed to approach a doctor if something is out of the normal that's the thing we're really trying to highlight isn't it it is and the more people that don't mind going and say my you know my poo's not quite right it will get people out there. Yes. That's good. And the awareness is so important to be recognised. Yeah. And then the research, because when Deborah was first diagnosed, the drug that gave her an extra couple of years was not even available at the beginning. And so, you know, and now more and more drugs are being, you know, researched.

And I really hope in my grandchildren's time that bowel cancer will not be as Deborah had to live through. You can live with it rather than die of it. Absolutely. Yeah. And I can see that, as you say, the science is moving so fast and the funding will just do such good things. And that's why I think, come on, let's get more funding. But I'm not at all surprised that you kept it going. I mean, I just think that there's so much energy around what she set up.

up and also it's a relevance but it's also the fact that i imagine and forgive me if anything i'm saying doesn't resonate with you but if something like that happened to one of my kids the idea of a positive coming out of a negative like that would mean would just help me. I think it does. I think it's my therapy. I'd never heal as such. You learn to live around it. And the positivity Deborah gave to us, you can learn so much from your children, you know. As a mother, you give to your children, but also your children give so much back.

And I now realise that Deborah gave back as much or more than what we gave to her. And to take that on board is what all of us have to do we have to be positive live life and always find something in the day to be you know positive about and I think she left me with that because I could have been quite a negative person I always had a half full cup not a half uh yeah half empty cup not a half full cup and whereas deb would be it's full it's fine it's full and uh no she's taught me quite a lot i can see that and i think also that sometimes when the person is not physically here anymore it's where you see all the echoes and reflections of everything that they put up around you is kind of extraordinary and it keeps them part of the present for the whole family

and keeps her name around. And there's no reason why you would not talk about Deborah and all those echoes. You're right. I think keeping her name alive makes her feel closer. And that's great. It is a healing part for me part of me also feels sometimes oh I've never really you can't just ignore that you know there's always something but then when Debra was here there was always something going on she was there was never

any quiet time and i did think at one stage when she died my life would change and it has changed but not to the quiet sitting in moping stage i grieve her but I grieve her doing things okay yeah I can see that and I suppose that like that active grief is something you can never even you don't even know how you're going to feel when you're in the other the new chapter do you know you can't picture it no matter how much you know you've been told that's where you're headed it's just a possibility to imagine for for us um for for particularly for say me for five years my life was her or her the children or the hospital or the chemotherapy after effects that she would come to or the steroid rage you know phoning me at two in the morning um and that's fine that was my life and then when she died I thought

what am I what is my life now um I could actually perhaps go away for the weekend and not be contacted but I can't I still that's not me I still feel I should be around and I've got two other children and now I really want to give them perhaps the time that I didn't because they understood but Deborah did take up a lot of time yeah that's under I think when any family what is it they say you know use is the family is as happy as its least happy member and also the whole family has to go to where where the you know the attention needs to be that's completely and they were all on board with it and that's nice it's not as though it's oh you know they're all they've been brilliant and they were there for her as well but perhaps my underlying thing is guilt that I didn't

spend so much time with them um because I I had to do something every night you know in the hospital when Debra was there but I love the fact when they all just moved in the next day when Deborah came back one suitcase came in another child another you know and I thought and they went we're staying here and Deborah went this is like the sleepovers we had as children and there was big grins on their faces and I thought that's good well I think that's actually more than good I think it's actually more than good. I think it's pretty phenomenal because it's obviously all the foundation of, you know, right from their childhood. That's when families get really, when it goes to the really tough

moments, the really emotional, intense, all those layers that have been laid down over the years it all just suddenly becomes the scaffolding to to hold you guys up through those things yeah I think you're right and I think but also Deborah enjoyed if that's the right word she wasn't going to lie there and wait for death she wasn't going to lie there and wait for death and what would I have done I think I thought that's what it was going to be you you come home to die you lie there and you wait until you die oh no no that was not a tour it's we're going to have margaritas I don't like margaritas but we had to have them we have to have cocktails and loads of things and going out and I went Debra um why have you just got a new pair of shoes delivered and she went I know what you're going to say I can't even walk but don't they look cool and I went and even more I went they are really expensive she went I know and you're going to say you're not going to get the wear out of them but Eloise can have them so you know and you have to laugh about that because

we had a normal conversation mother child conversation what a lot of money and yes you're not going to get the wear and then I think what a thing to say but she loved them. She looked good in them. Yep. Wear them. I think, I mean, I remember getting a text message that I'm sure she sent to lots of people in her phone book saying, this is the message I didn't want to have to write. I'm heading home. The treatment has finished. And I thought, okay, this is where it goes quiet. And then obviously the absolute opposite happened.

You're right. I thought it would go quiet. And I thought, no more going up to the Royal Marsden every night. And it was surreal, really, when she came home. But it was the busiest, happiest time, even though we knew what the ending would be it was good and I guess some very precious very precious memories and I think one of the memories and I haven't told you a few days before she she died I my nails were looking really bad they are painted today um and she went mum you really need to look

after your nails and I went oh I haven't got time she said then make time sit here and go and she got she was doing my cuticles she said your cuticles and I went Deborah I haven't got time to do my cuticles and she was so frail and she held my hand with a bony hand and she did my cuticles and I thought wow you know how lovely is that and uh but then Debra was the first one I was 60 years old and I'd never had nail polish because I'd always bitten my nails really short And she booked me for my birthday a gel nail varnish. And I didn't even know what gel was. And I went, I'm not having that. I don't even have any nails that were bitten.

She said, that's why you're going to have gel. And I went, will it hurt? She went, it's only gel and it will come off later and they'll take it off. And from that day on, I have been addicted to gel nail varnish. And it stopped me biting my nails. Oh, I might need to take that advice. And so that's the only thing. And I was so proud that I've now got nails that I've never had.

But, yeah, you know, I learnt to stop biting them after 60 years, but only with no varnish on. Yes, that's probably good advice. But I love that story about you and Deborah and having that moment with your cuticles because that intimacy and the care and just having those moments, that's... Because we were all massaging her her legs and her feet and then she to do that to me I thought oh that means so much it's an expression of something isn't it yeah because I said to her

what can I do to help you and she went you can just care for me because that's what I want. And that's what we all did. We just all mucked in. And it wasn't sad. It was, you know, have a nice lollies at three in the morning because if she wanted a nice lolly, because obviously, you know, that would be quite soothing for her. We all had ice lollies at three in the morning, you know. And, yeah, it was, I'm grateful I saw into this world

and I said to her I will see you out of this world and I'm grateful to be able to have done that but I didn't realize it would hit me a year on yeah well I suppose I mean and it really did hit me a year on well I'm so sorry you've had to you know go through all of it it's it's a very unusual thing that the reason so many people came to know you and Deborah and the rest of the family is through this very same thing that caused you an extraordinary amount of hurt yes and I mean the anxiety I know you've spoken about that before and I suppose all these things you were carrying because you're at the epicenter of this, her mother. And yeah, I guess it just, there's only so long you can keep going without your body saying, I need to find a way out of all these things.

I was living off of adrenaline, I think. And I'd been used to five years of rollercoaster life because that's what anybody's cancer journey is is roller coaster you have good you have bad and um deb has always been like that throughout her whole life even before cancer and i know my mum would say you've got you've got fun and games there and she said she's going to give you great happy times but she's going to give you really annoying tough times as well and all the way through her life that is how she was um not an easy child a very happy full of life child um but very headstrong. Yes, well, we will return to that in a bit because I very much want to not make this a whole conversation about the fact Deborah, you know, was diagnosed with cancer.

True. It's what happened to her, but it's not the essence of your family or her or you or any of those things. But the only last thing, I was really, again, this is incredibly unique, but what is it like to grieve someone that is also grieved by so many members of the public who never met her? I can't imagine what that energy must feel like. that energy must feel like I it's it's given me comfort to know how many people she did touch but sadness that we didn't know until she died how many people she touched um

I'm proud I'm so proud and Deborah worked so hard and she kept saying to us are you proud of me and I went Deborah and the last words I said to her were we're so proud of you it's time to rest now darling and within 10 minutes that was the last breath she took because we had to give her that you've done all you can do now, now rest. Because every time I said to her, Debra, why don't you sleep? She said, I can sleep when I'm dead. I've got too much to do. And that was always her reaction. So that's why we never really slept for that whole time she was back. We just kept going. The fun kept going.

The outings kept going. You know, the book, the rose, the clothes. The damehood. The damehood was surreal. And I never did shower for Prince William. I'm sorry if I smelt. I didn't have time. My hair was a mess.

But it was what it was. And looking back, that's surreal. And I think for me, the funeral, none of us cried. Because we just all held it together. But for me to see how strong Hugo and Eloise were walking behind their mother's coffin um and the only little um hiccup we had and I will now profess I actually sort of slipped off one of my heels and I can remember Ben behind me went, well, good job that there wasn't a camera near, you know. And Eloise having a little giggle. And I thought Debra would be in there saying, trust you, mum. But it was lovely that Hugo, her four men carried her coffin. Her father, her husband, her son and her brother.

But how, you know, fitting that they should be the last ones to carry her. And I think that was lovely and I was very proud of that. But because it was so public, her dying, it's not normal. It's not normal for a mother or her husband, children and family to have to deal with that as well. Yeah, it's definitely unusual. When we're not that type of family. We're not out there in the public family.

That's not what we are we just got in that because of deborah and deborah's ability to communicate and do what she's done absolutely which is great and we will continue her legacy but we're it's you know it is different for us. We're not natural to it. It's just us. You will get what you see, and that's what we are. And I hope we will do Deborah proud as she did us proud. Absolutely. Oh, that's, yeah, that's a given. That's an absolute given.

Well, if I could go back in time, what was happening in your life? What were you up to when you had your first baby which was I was very young I I met Alistair at 14 at school oh wow um I left school at 15 to work in a bank because it was the first last year you could leave early um I desperately wanted to be a teacher but due to circumstances I had to leave to work. And Alistair went on to university. He was two years older. So we got engaged at 16 and 18, and he went to university. And everybody said, it won't last.

So that's fine. You can get married after he's graduated. That's it. And six weeks after he graduated graduated three years down the line we got married and so you know it's and we've been married nearly 47 years actually so it's incredible yeah and we were young we I hadn't left the village because I come from Dorsets and it's a very close-knit village and family. And then I moved up to London and I can remember my mum saying, well, we'll never see you again.

I went, mum, it's only two hours. And she went, well, I'm not going to be up there. And I was so homesick. I was so homesick because i was the classic i lived opposite my sisters next to my mum and for me london was so big that i said to alistair i can't live in london and so we went on the map and it happened to be Woking because we could get on the M3 very quickly yeah and a good commute to London so we thought fine and the home sickness took me about almost a year and every weekend Alistair kept his promise and drove me back home and it became less and less we put brought mum up and she went oh oh it's normal

up here you know yes mum they are still people and then she became oh you've got big shops and she had this thing about coats and so we would buy her a new coat and she'd go back and show everybody she got this coat in London. And it became quite sweet. And Deborah then was born four years into our marriage. So I was 23 and that was late. Everybody thought four years down the road in marriage, you know, why? Because in those days you had children as soon as you got married yeah and so we didn't so we were a bit different and uh it came as you know when I had this baby

I had I didn't have family near um I found it actually quite lonely. Yeah, I can imagine. And as a mother, my husband worked in London all hours. If it wasn't for the people I met at my baby group who were friends for life, and I needed those and the neighbours I had. The support was great. And my friends meant so much when you haven't got family close to help you. And Deborah was born with congenital dislocated hips. And I can remember saying, because in those days, they took your baby away and put them in a nursery in the hospital. And then they said, your baby's got CDH.

And I went, well, what's that? And they explained this long congenital disc. And I went, well, is she dead? And they went, no, no, have you not seen her? And I went, well, no, you know. So they bought her. And I went, well, well she got any legs and hips you know and they went yeah yeah and so that was quite a trauma when you're not given any

information 42 years ago as such and then we had to deal with her being splintered out and she was determined to crawl even at six months in a beautiful and she was an energetic baby even then and when the splints came off at 11 months 12 she got up and walked and never stopped so it didn't think i'm dying to get those things off any harm and uh but she never slept never slept as a baby never slept as a toddler there's a pattern here isn't there never slept as a teenager um and never slept when she was dying until she died so i think it was what she was going to always be oh definitely i mean i think that there's definitely an essence of how someone is their spirit like it's a spirit she was a tree trunk you know with the rings coming out but the essence of the tree is, their spirits. Yeah, it's a spirit. It's like a tree trunk, you know, with the rings coming out,

but the essence of the tree is who they are. And perhaps I was too controlling a mother, or tried to be, but perhaps, how would Deborah have turned out if I didn't? I always wanted to win the battles, but Deborah did as well. So you can imagine that as a temper two-year-old toddler, having big tempers, they were doubly big because I would have them as well so you can imagine that as a temper two-year-old toddler having big tempers they were doubly big because I would have them as well so you know um as a grandmother I can handle tempers no that that you just ignore them what do you think the shift is though with that why is it

that grandparents and their grandchildren can handle grandchildren don't have that same fire? I just laugh at them. I just laugh at them. I do. Whereas as a mother, I felt everybody was judging me. Yeah, and I think sometimes... If my child had a temper out in a shop, I felt everybody was judging me if I ignored it.

Yeah, I can relate to that I hope now people don't feel that because I would never judge a child screaming on the floor and the mother because we've been there done that but I was 20 what by the time she was 24 and I had another baby as well, I felt people were judging me, actually. Yeah. And that makes you feel, am I doing the right job? So much pressure. You know, I have to show that, you know, you can't do this. But, of course, a child, too, are learning their feelings.

Yes. And it's made me, hope a good coach I've worked with children now for 40 years and I can see how children develop and that's just part of the development so what age children do you work with I actually work with them for four months and but really the four months yeah I hang them upside down we roll them we exercise them but we have fun and communicate with them and really I feel my job is I'm there for the mum if they've had a bad night let's that's fine we all have bad nights come and have a time with your child and just be there and enjoy the company of other parents as

well and I think for me if I'd had that it would have helped because yeah the loneliness is hard when you're a new mum and when you've got two children and one was prem. Sarah was a good baby, but you had to feed her because she was jaundiced. So you had to feed her more and wake her. And then you had a really difficult toddler and no help. And yeah, but we got through it and, and she was really fun to have around. was really fun to have around and again it would she would come in and she would bring the outside in in a real bowl of dirt and tip it on the cream carpet and say I'm making a garden and it's oh lovely darling but not indoors and you know out it would go so I was perhaps relaxed with her and she was very artistic and wanted to make snow out of paper all over the sitting room. And that's fine. So she had that.

She always wanted to be on the go, which is why, obviously, she went into gymnastics. Yes, I spoke to her about all of that. Four or five, she was training six hours a week yes and but she still had more energy i thought that would perhaps help her to sleep but no so did the gymnastics was that going alongside your work with no i'd never been to a gymnastics club before um but I took Deborah along when she was three and she obviously had ability and she was spotted and asked to train more and I said no she's too young and they said then put on a track suit and come in with her and that is how I sort of became coming with her and that is how I sort of became very interested and a coach oh wow so it's directly linked to that directly linked I didn't realize three and she'd be 43 this year so it was 40 years

ago wow so that's that's quite a thing that ended up being something you've done for decades it was all instigated by this outing with your little girl yes and my love of it and yeah isn't that strange how as a mother your child can lead you down a different path definitely because I also worked in a bank for nine years so you know it's it led me to actually do what I originally wanted to do, which was teach. Yes, exactly. And so you work with babies, but do you work in schools? No, in a gymnastics club. So people come to...

They come to us. A purpose-built gymnastics club where you've got pits, dug in foam pits and things and trapeze. But I'm very fortunate. I also now work in a club. pits, dug in foam pits and things and trapeze. But I'm very fortunate. I also now work in a club. We've been open eight years, which have circus skills. Yeah, I remember Deborah telling me about that.

So Deborah loved it. She's always wanted to run away with the circus, which was quite difficult when the circus came to town at 16. I would have to make sure she'd get home. She's still home at the end of the run. Yeah. And she's always home at the end of their run yeah and um she's always loved circus always and uh when she knew yeah and then she realized how difficult it is to walk on a tight wire or swing on the aerial hoops can you do all these things no I can teach them

I can't do them uh I had a go at the aerials. Just go on. Just get in the hoop. Just get on there. It's fine. I can't do it myself. You can't do it. But I did have a go at the aerials silks. Pulling myself upside down, I was agony for the next week. But, you know.

Aerials silks, that's really hard. That's when you like twist yourself up, isn't it? And then they swing you at the bottom like that. You put yourself up, get your legs up in the air. But no, you you know it's fun and I would love a go to be fair

exactly I just wish yeah it's cool but I wish I was 20 years younger and then I could do it more but

age shouldn't be a barrier no and if you want to go upside down you go upside down I think that's going to be my quote of the day yeah because did you do handstand i used to do handstands yeah cartwheels all of that handstands up against the wall i would still do when deborah and sarah and then ben showing them how to do you know

we'd all do that i can't do a handstand against the wall now. I know jolly well it's not going to. But people of my age can, so that's good. And I might do it at home if somebody holds my legs up. We can have a go after we finish recording. We could. Clear a space for us. Handstand against the wall.

What do you learn about parenting when you're teaching children? Because teaching children in a group, you must be a bit more objective about what works and what doesn't work. Yeah. What I actually do as well is I work with parents with their children. So under the age of three, with their children. So under the age of three, every parent or guardian or grandmother comes with that child. And for me, I love my job so much, but it's actually dealing with the parent to know how they can help that child. So I can deal with the child,

but if the parent doesn't support that way, that's difficult. Yes. So, and we actually, I think if the parent can give the confidence to the child, that's what, forget whether they're going to be a top gymnast. I think it's for the basic of all sport. You learn to balance. You learn to jump. You learn to hold your body weight.

You learn to go upside down. Spatial awareness, so important for everything. Yes. And then the gymnastics and the circus skills are on top of that but and the social thing learning to take turns uh learning to share and learning to have patience I wouldn't say I had patience with my children but I can see now it's all part and the children building their confidence. And please don't knock your child back telling them they can't do anything. Because then they'll think they can't.

Find something they can do and then work on that. Yeah. Even if it's only throwing a ball, that's great. They've achieved something really, really important, and that's good. And then they'll build on it. So when I spoke to Deborah, there was a lot of conversation that went towards her

natural competitiveness. Is that something that you think is something you can build on with a kid, or is that always there? With her, was that there from the get-go? Is that just a nature thing, do you think is something you can build on with a kid or is that always there with her was that there from the get-go is that just a nature thing do you think no perhaps it was me pushing her behind I think without the support of a parent I was actually having this conversation with a friend and they were saying oh but a child um you know, will it do it or won't do it? Yes, I agree, the child has to be behind it. But if the parent is not behind that child,

you will never get your top spokesman because it's the parent that has to commit 30 hours a week to take them. Right. To training, to be there, to to competitions so you need the parent on board yes or both or whatever you cannot do it if the child's got natural talent and you pick them out that's fantastic but without the support of the parent it won't Yes, I can see that now you've said that. That does make complete sense. And it is hard.

Yeah, you've got to give over. What then suffers if you've got more than one child is the other children. Right. Because how do you split yourself if they do different sports? And that is where the guilt comes in. Because Deborah was doing like 40 hours a week or something. Yes, she was training 30 hours a week.

Sarah, it meant couldn't really do much. Unless she was doing gymnastics as well. Unless she was doing gymnastics. And she did do gym, but not to that level. Right. Because it just wasn't suitable for her her and she did go into tennis and hockey which was great but it's fitting it in yeah and that always and so would say you can tell I'm a middle child you know and I do think that that is the you know the disadvantage if I'm honest

um although Alistair would be there with Sarah and do different things so that was good because I would be coaching evenings and weekends with Deborah and so Sarah had a one-to-one with daddy so that was quite nice and then 10 years later when Ben came along and wanted to start doing things at five, they were 15, 16. So it was fine. And so Ben was like an only child. And he went into, they all did gym for quite a while, but he went into tennis quite seriously at five. But then I could take him to tennis every night.

Yes. Because I had that freedom. every night yeah because I had that freedom so I don't you know I don't condemn any mother I think or father or carer it is really hard to manage that if they and you can pursue that sport that's amazing but if you are working yeah just and that's good it hard, so don't beat yourself up about it. Let them explore all sports and see what they want as well. Yeah, and all their passions. And all their passions. And if they really are passionate and you can support it, that would be amazing.

Yeah, but I suppose even just turning up to one of your classes and getting that community and being engaged. Yeah, and once a week, that's great. That's super as well. I wish you were near here. I would definitely bring my kids to you. You sound like you'd be so lovely with them. Oh, no, not always.

I will be strict with them. Yeah, no. I haven't seen that side. It has changed in 40 years. I think parents have a much tougher job now really I really do because most parents do work you know it's very unusual to find somebody that can stay at home all the time what else would you say is a way that parenting has changed? Guilt that they give into their children and I'm the old fashion that no means no and consequences has to be

carried through and I see more and more parents find that difficult. Well I think one of the shifts is that and it's well-intentioned, and probably still finding the balance, but we want to make sure that children feel heard, feel they have, you know, a voice at the table, that their feelings are taken into account. And that puts us in quite a difficult predicament, because the child might say, I don't want to do this. So you as an adult might see the benefits of what they're going to do, but then you also can see them feeling muted,

feeling their feelings are diminished, their emotions don't get... So it puts you in this quandary of going, do I just say, well, I'm the grown-up, this is what's happening, or do I go, I see your anger, I see your frustration, let's let that live, let's give that room. Yeah, and that's why I think it's far more difficult because I was brought up and you didn't get heard. Simple times.

You know, you didn't get heard, you don't have a voice. The adult is the boss, if you like, in what they say goes. No, because actually the relationship then, you were almost scared to, you couldn't go out of the boundaries. But I did try sometimes, you know, and so I wasn't that easy in a child. sometimes you know and so I wasn't that easy in a child but um but no I think it does get harder and children are listened to and that's a good thing children needs to be listened to but I think there has to be a balance between you know you have to learn right from wrong uh and when do you start giving those rights from wrong and i think the earlier the better for the most important things

yes i think so i think yeah and it's about having a sort of your family's i don't know moral compass i suppose and the things that matter to you under your roof yeah and what doesn't matter and I put my hands up because it mattered so much to me at 24 is matching socks and everybody will laugh I would never put a child in on matching socks and um if they wanted to wear uh a summer dress in the middle of winter, I wouldn't allow, you know, I would say, no, no, no, we'd have a battle. People come in on matching socks. They've come in. It doesn't matter. My grandchildren, I won't tell you what they go out in.

And it's fine. It's not the end of the world. But for me, 40 years ago, it was the end of the world. But maybe it was about something about what it felt like it conveyed like being organized being together being presentable it's not true always literal is it no you're right just love it when socks are together i don't know it can't be really literal how sad is that that i thought it was so important that socks had to be in pairs and everything had to match and you're right perhaps it's what I was trying

to present to the outside world yeah a sense of something proper proper a proper thing is happening here but don't feel you have to and actually it leads me on to I said to Deborah I can't be seen in a costume look I'm a flab I've got rolls and she went mum enhance your body it's keeping you alive look at it as not a beauty thing it is beautiful because it keeps you alive and mine is dying and be embrace it embrace it for what it is and I am so lucky that actually yeah I I wear what I want to wear and if people don't like it that's fine and I am lucky that I am still alive and I could yeah and my body yeah it doesn matter. Of course you try and look after it. But don't be shy of it. So it's changed your relationship with yourself in that way?

It has, actually. And my wrinkles and everything. It's fine. It's what I am. I've had nearly 67 years of happiness and sadness and ups and downs. But we're still here and we're still going to have fun, even though I've lost my daughter. We will still live and find joy,

but always will remember what, you know. I do think she was given to me for a reason and I do think she couldn't to me for a reason. And I do think she couldn't have lived more than 40 years because we'd all be exhausted. I don't think she could have done another 40 years of what she was doing, but she would have tried, you know. When she first was diagnosed and she dressed up as a poo and put so much energy into all of that.

As a mother, how did you handle your instinct to sometimes say to her, slow down? I didn't because she never would. I mean, as a teenager, she was always on the go. I know she wrecked your house as a party as well. Oh, yeah was always on the go. As a young child. I know she wrecked your house as a party as well. Oh, yeah, always partying. But actually, I quite like a party. I mean, we would always have Christmas Eve parties for a big number of people

and then still be up at four o'clock in the morning wrapping Christmas presents. Okay, I'm definitely seeing a whole pattern here. And thinking, what do we do? The whole family don't sleep much. Although I do like my sleep, but I don't get it. And one of Deborah's, she was seven years old, said, Mum, why did God not put more hours in a day? Because I really can't get everything done.

And I thought, wow. Yeah, wow. A seven-year-old to say that, and then she would still be trying to do everything all the way through her life. But that's okay. It's okay. She, you know, you get out, perhaps, what you put in,

but she did exhaust us and her. And, but then would I want to sit and just I love sitting to read but I don't want to do that all day every day and yes Alistair will be 70 next year he's still working still working and loving it well yes he would like to cut, but actually we're not ready to do that yet. I think Deborah made sure we would be busy. Yes, I can see that. You know, the grandchildren, our other children, and most importantly, making awareness

and the Balbae Fund continue. Yes. The legacy. But no, she wasn't an easy teenager. I don't think any of my grandchildren would be easy. It's not what we're looking for though, is it? No, you're right. Why look for...

You're sort of rooting for them when they're spirited, I think. Like, come on then. That's just what I said to her mum this week. She went, oh, I'm so sorry, Heather. And I went, I love their different spirit. Why not? Yeah, exactly. There's a, I love their different spirit. Why not? Yeah, exactly. There's a little bit of defiance

and sometimes quite like, okay, yeah. See what happens if you go through that door, if you ask that question, if you, you know, push that button. True, true. You sort of get it. Actually, when I was listening back to the chat with Deborah,

the things that really jumped out. Firstly, she talks a lot about parties and dressing up and it seems to have emanated from your household from her childhood she said you guys were always having parties so she'd find you in the garden people round rose on the go so this is a positive thing definitely i think um yeah yeah and she actually said, and Ben and Sarah, but Deborah said, I've had a good life. I loved my childhood. And I think, wow, that is, that means something.

It's huge. And she loved school. I know children don't like school, but Deborah loved school. She embraced everything that was going on. And actually, yeah, all my children did. So we had fun and school was fun. But I think perhaps there's more pressure on children now. I wanted them to do well and I'm proud they did do well.

But as long as they were happy that's that's the main thing and yeah we you know we were happy and I think if you can show them all aspects of life I think that that is good as well you know I mean particularly I was brought up is good as well you know I mean particularly I was brought up you know in a my mum had four girls two up two down luxuries were not there but we learned to knit we didn't even have a television for age you know so but it was fun we had fun but different fun out in the garden and climbing trees and going for walks and uh but never had a birthday party all the way and so I think that's why I went a bit mad when I had my own house my own children I made sure they would have birthday parties well it's continued definitely in that legacy you you've given that to all your children, I'm sure,

because I remember Deborah saying that Ben is very good with parties. Very. Yeah. And now Sarah had a big fort here. There you go. And decided she'd go all out, having said, I don't do parties. No. And it was the biggest party for a 40-year-old you could have. But these are the things you remember.

It's funny because it can seem like, you know, we think of it as not trivial, but as in the periphery, you know, the parties, the celebrations, the dressing up. But look at the impact. Look at how it invites people. It's like a big light. It's like something you want to head towards,

I think, those good things. And then that's what you have in your head and in your heart to hold. And I think we always encourage them to bring friends home because I wasn't allowed to ever bring a friend home. And I love the fact that they bring their friends home. And I love the fact, not just them, but my grandchildren or four of them grandma can I bring a friend around with me yeah of course you can open door open door and we ended up with yeah sort of two grandchildren and five friends but that's fine um that's great and that will always

be there and I love the fact that all four of the grandchildren including you know the older ones Deborah's two and my other two feel they can do that and they feel comfortable there and I yeah I'm I love that and I do love a party house but we do have a bungalow now but we can still party in the garden um you know I'm sure you we do have a bungalow now but we can still party in the garden um you know i'm sure you can still trash a bungalow you're right you can actually even worse because the bedrooms are on the same floor exactly yeah just get lost in there true well um it's just i suppose it's such an interesting thing because when I spoke to Deborah,

she said that the illness, her diagnosis, had actually made her a more present parent and she felt that she got to know her children, but also they got to know her. I know. And I think that you would never, ever wish any of these things on anyone. And you don't need, you know, traumatic diagnoses to make you see the good stuff that's in your family.

But it doesn't mean it is okay to reflect on what good can come out of something bad. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Deborah loved her job, as you know, as a deputy head and was hoping for a headship. And when Eloise, her second child, she went back to work after Hugo, and then Eloise was born and she said after that she said to me mum I can't be the mother I want to be and I can't be the deputy the head I can't be the teacher I want to be because I I just feel torn so I said oh does that mean you're giving up work and she went no it means I'm going full-time and I went so she said you're not gonna like it and I went

no if that's what you want then but don't regret it because she was working part-time but if you work part-time she can't do what she wants to get her teeth into so I my first thing was we'll help you but please don't regret it should know I won't regret it and then that continued and it was hard because the children but we were quite involved in fact we've always been all family involved you're all hands-on um but you're right the children did say mum we see more of you now you've got cancer it's not nice you've got cancer but it's nice we see more of you and so that was the positive i think and it is an amazing positive that they will always remember her because they got closer with Covid I think we have to take the positives the negatives were

terrible for us because of not being able to see her and all the control in hospitals but the positive was they were so close as their little unit family that how lovely to have had that extra almost year being locked up together. Yeah, absolutely. Really knowing each other. But then the sadness that they miss mummy perhaps more because they knew her more yeah and the more you love somebody the more the greater the grief when you lose them that's very true but then

grief is always the extension of love that's how I yeah it has to be yeah and the love doesn't go you still love that you still love that person. You still love that person. Yeah. But I don't know about you, but the more you see somebody, the more you get used to them being there. And then when you don't see them, the harder it gets. So for me, I saw Deborah a lot. Yeah.

And so when I lost her it was massive whereas if you think that they're working and they're a board on work or something yeah and you're not going to see them for a few months that's fine so I have to sometimes think oh she's just away and yeah you know and that that was how I originally coped with it because then the time gets longer and longer doesn't it and so the grief gets different yeah I mean the whole process is incredibly cruel and the reality hits him more particularly when I look at her and think oh you had so much more to give and you loved life more than anybody else I knew and she did she loved life and all aspects of life and she wanted to do so much more good in this world um but but then it is she did what she did and I am grateful for having her I am I am grateful for having all my children and every child's different and like I

said you you know Deborah is Deborah and sometimes I can remember going in, I literally had to get away. I think she'd been home with us, you know, coming home on palliative care. And it was about three weeks in, and we were told it would probably only be about five days max. And on the third week, I can remember going out and saying to somebody, I'm going to kill her if she keeps on like this. And then we sort of both burst out laughing, saying,

well, that's the wrong thing to say. And I thought, yeah, but thanks. I've got out and I'm going to go back. And it was all right. It was just, you know, a normal mother-daughter relationship. Absolutely. You get on each other's nerves, don't you, sometimes? Yes, you really do.

And I think with you talking about having more to give, I suppose, I mean, it's sitting from where I, like, there was so much that did come out of it. I can't really, you know, it's such an extraordinary thing and how much she did do in that time. extraordinary thing and how much she did do in that time um but uh there's always going to be a feeling of um an untold because it's she was too young to die i know and i realized how much effort she had to put in to stay alive to get that done because she could have quite easily have just that's it absolutely but she did the opposite yeah now and yes she did have pain no she wouldn't be drugged

and yes I did get cross with her saying you, you know, please take some of these. And she went, no, because I want to do more. And she was fighting against resting and, you know, basically, no, just leave me. I'll be fine. I'm going to get on with it. Do you think there's a pressure that comes on when people are looking at her, I'm going to get on with it.

Do you think there's a pressure that comes on when people are looking at her, looking for her to be this emblem of a positive take on a limiting diagnosis? Do you think that came with something you have to carry? I don't think people need to carry that. I think Deborah knew her limited time meant she had to do as much as she could she just felt driven and driven because she's always been a very driven girl um therefore if I've only got five days I better do it and she did more and more as the time went on. Right. And she pushed herself beyond limits that most people wouldn't be able to do. And I think, you know, she got through everything. The last thing was the toilet rolls.

I can always remember that. And that was the weekend before she died. And we could see her, everything was failing. And she went, I've got to get this done. I've got to see this through. And I went, Deborah, you've done enough, darling. You mustn't worry about this. And she, you know, she was really struggling,

but she got that through and she got that toilet roll message out there and um then I think was the time for her to go I really do and she'd said what she wanted to say to the children and made sure, you know, the children knew how much she loved them, but also that they had to continue with their lives and join them and not to use her as an excuse. And she went, you don't use me dying as an excuse for messing up your life because I'll still be watching you. Wow. That's very, I mean, I think that's an incredible thing to give them it also gives them permission to really live yeah it does and for all of us to live yeah absolutely because that was her real just because she had her life cut terribly short not for the rest of the family to have their lives finished well yes exactly and as a mother that's very easily done because i said to

her but deborah what am i gonna do and she went you would find your life back and you will live it because I can't mum so you must do it for me yes and however much I would like to sometimes just sit and take a moment I I know I need to be out there to help other people. So that's what I will do. Yes, I can see the similarities between you. And talking of living life, you're about to go off for this big family wedding, for your son's wedding, which is very exciting. Yes, so exciting. It's going to be actually, for me, quite emotional

because Deborah wanted to see her brother married. Ashley and Ben's been together 12 years. So, you know, it's great. We know it. And a part of Deborah will be with us. They really will be with us. Don't doubt that for a second. Who's bringing the fancy dress?

We just had to pay for another suitcase because you don't get much limit do you when you go on a airplane 23 kilos no that's not going to be enough but um and all the shoes but no it will be yeah it would be lovely and i think we'll all be there yeah Yeah. And celebrating with Deborah. And we'll have Deborah with us. Yes, you will. In heart and everything. Oh, I'll be thinking of you. Have an amazing time.

I think I need it. I think it'd be a great, oh, celebration. Yeah, a happy thing. 18, 20 months on. It couldn't have been before none of us was ready to celebrate before no and now we will toast deborah it's got to be champagne of course and yeah we will celebrate that very much so and I think that was very much when we had Sarah's 40th a few weeks ago. It did hit me totally. You sang at Deborah's 40th and she really was quite poorly.

And there was, what, 25, 30 of us there, very close friends. And she hit that milestone of 40, which meant so much. And she never got to another one. Sarah has hit her 40th and she's got so much more life to live for and with and to do. and with, and to do. And then I realised how little life Deborah had left in her after her 40th. And that really hit me, actually. One daughter, amazing, about to die.

Another daughter, starting. You know, when you hit 40s things become different you know they've been married what 16 years 17 years and the children are growing up a little bit and I could see they've still got so much life ahead of them and so much I hope fun and living, that brought back the reality of how young Deborah actually was. Yes, and also your role in it all, because you have to witness those things, see those things and just hold them. Yes, yeah. That's really tough.

That was tough, actually, and I never thought that would hit me. But it just brings back the other emotion. It was tough, actually, and I never thought that would hit me. But it just brings back the other emotion. Yeah, absolutely. And I suppose that's the sort of... The mothering, I don't know. Yeah, the sort of lonely bit of the mothering where you can see that, but they wouldn't understand it in the way you do because you can see it from that vantage point.

But then, of course, Sarah and Ben have lost their sister. Yes. And that is tough for them. And they are being amazing. Then I think for them that's sad. They've had to go through the loss of a sister at a very difficult age as well, actually. Yeah.

It's just always hard to lose someone before they, you know, a young age, like it's just... Yeah. It just comes back to... Sad never feels like enough of a word. I feel like you need more variations of sad because you just end up feeling sad a lot. Yeah, and I think for me, the overriding issue in my head is that however well Hugo and Eloise are doing, and they're doing amazing,

Hugo and Eloise losing a mother at a very vulnerable age, teenagerish, will always live with them. Yes, yeah. And mould them. Yeah, it shapes things, yes. It shapes things. I don't know which way it's going to shape things. In a good way, I hope.

But, you know, I honestly feel for any child losing a mum at any age and it does shape your life because it changes it it definitely does but there will be definitely positives that come out of it because she left a positive yes imprint and that positivity still resonates. And that's the good thing that I hope will continue and carry them through. Well, I think there's a lot of beauty in it as well. I mean, the only reason I came to see Deborah is because I started following her after stumbling across her story. And those concentric circles ripple out. And I feel like you have to feel the good of that because that's what special people do then they when they bring that positivity it does echo for age that's that energy sustained it doesn't go away yeah I wish I had more hours

really I would love to just spend my time I need to spend my time with my family and husband but I also want to help people I'm here I've been through grief but I've been through anxiety attacks I've been through loneliness I've been through postnatal depression so you know the more you live life the more you come across different things yeah and you experience different some people don't experience it part of me think oh I wish I could be like you having never experienced highs and lows but actually I have and so I have to deal with that but if I can help anybody out there then I'm here. Well, I think that's one of the things that, as you say,

is a thing you can take from that, is that it opens you up to being empathetic to all the other people who've experienced it. And not everybody knows how to articulate things or get the support. And so, as you say, if you can be there and help people understand they're not alone. And I feel like everything always keeps coming back to sort of community because we spoke about how you felt homesick when you left home and you wanted your family around and then you found all the other mothers

and slowly you find that and the community through, you know, online things and through the family around you when Deborah is dying. It keeps coming back to just the positives of there being people around. Yeah, definitely. And I know there's people lonely out there. And that is sad, you know. And communities are not so close now, are they, where you live? And I was, yeah, you know, I am a bit different because I would go and knock on a neighbour's door.

I'm so in there, sort of say, well, who are you? Well, I'm going to be your neighbour, therefore I'm here if ever you need me. People don't do that. Not as much. As you live in my road. But yeah, and not so much. And I would like to see more of the community help each other as well. Yeah.

But yeah, there's lots out there that, yeah, but lots of positivity. And I know people are going through hard times and and um it is hard but always always think of one good thing like even the rain Deborah loved the rain and she would sing in the rain it's you know she loved the sun but she would also sing and dance in the rain and embrace it to actually have a downpour like any minute now, so. It is. I don't like the rain. It messes up my hair, but you know.

We could do the rain and the handstand, I'm thinking. That would be fun, wouldn't it? Going up into a handstand in the wet, but you know. There you go. Yeah, but no, it's been lovely to talk to you. Yes, you too. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to you yes you too thank you so much it's been an absolute pleasure to chat to you

yeah and I you know like I said you were amazing and I will always remember the joy on her face of you singing Murder on the Dance Floor standing on top of her like Ottoman into Eloise's microphone

with all the balloons and Deborah dancing away with all her university friends. Yeah, it was magic. And me videoing. It was really magic. I'm glad I got to be there. And I'm so grateful. So thank you. It was a fantastic time.

It was a lovely thing for me too. So thank you. See what I mean about her lovely voice? And I really hope they had such a brilliant time at the wedding. It would have happened now. So I hope it was completely glorious. And yeah, what a gorgeous conversation. I feel very, very lucky that you took the time to come and see me.

And I've got more brilliant things where that came from you know what just happened while I'm talking to you my son's come in the room and now he's left the door even wider open what's wrong with everybody just close the door when it's shut anyway these are small fry things to complain about and actually I think you know I already used the word poignant a lot when we spoke at the beginning but I do think it's maybe there's a nice sort of serendipity and talking to Heather thinking about Deborah at the same week that I've had a birthday because birthdays always make you think don't know about the preciousness of time and how lucky we are to see another day and this is a gorgeous day I mean spring has

definitely sprung in London today. It's absolutely beautiful. The sun is streaming in its golden light. And I can see one of my offspring. I can see some daffodils, some flowers, a beautiful pineapple plant that Richard got me, which is quite hilarious. A little pineapple in the middle of it. And there's just no reason to be down. Not even about doors left open during recordings so

life is good and time is precious and birthdays are a privilege and I will see you next week lots and lots of love see you soon Thank you. I'm going to go. highest cash back, the most savings on your shopping. So join Rakuten and start getting cash back at Sephora, Old Navy, Expedia, and other stores you love. You can even stack sales on top of cash back. Just start your shopping with Rakuten to save money at over 750 stores. Join for free at rakuten.ca or get the Rakuten app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N.