Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 124: Michelle Ogundehin

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

Michelle Ogundehin is best known as the head judge of Interior Designs Masterclass on BBC 1. It’s a programme I am utterly addicted to, and I was therefore delighted to have been asked to join as a guest judge for semi finals week, this week (TX 23/4/24). I have been a fan of Michelle’s expert eye when it comes to interiors for a long time, having devoured every issue of Elle Decoration published during her time as editor in chief from 2004 to 2017. I love her approach to homes and how they make you feel, always taking into account the link between our environment and how it affects our mental health. Off-screen, Michelle is a devoted single mum to her 10 year old son. She became a mum later in life, after years of trying, and her journey included IVF and four miscarriages. She says her son is the best thing that has ever happened to her. We talked about her worries about becoming a mum due to her own mother not being maternal or loving to her. She told me how she has recently been ‘album-ing’ her life and also that she believes that what surrounds us at home affects us. I finally tested her boundaries when I mischievously suggested she should let her little boy draw on his bedroom walls, just as my mum let me!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello to you. I speak to you from Sunday morning. This is the third time I've tried

to record this. The first time was yesterday and I was very happy chatting away to you about this week's guest and all the things I've been up to recently. And then two of the kids started having a fight. So I had to stop what I was doing. And just now I was very happily chatting to you about everything. And then one of my kids got very cross that I wasn't playing with him, which is fair enough, I hear you say. But, you know, I did all the classic stuff. I acknowledged him.

I said, give me two minutes. It wasn't enough. So now he's happy and I'm going to try this again and it's a Sunday morning as I said the sun is shining I'm in the middle of a massive clear out of a cupboard we have a cupboard under the stairs that keeps all our coats and shoes and I've pulled everything out which at first felt wonderful and now I was in that horrible bit where you've actually just got to keep going with the job that you're now not feeling quite as enthusiastic about. But I have found stuff in there I don't need,

so there's a nice little pile of things building for the charity shop and all good. And what else have I done this weekend? It's been pretty mixed, and lots of fun. Yesterday I sang at the Twickenham Rugby England-Ireland Women's Match and I took along Jessie and Mickey, so my little two, and they were absolutely loving it because it's such a spectacle. Very family friendly, lots of fun stuff happening. There's a DJ, there's pyrotechnics and fireworks and people dressed with disco balls on their heads doing dances and it was actually really cute. And I at the half half time um you know the break and I um I only had 10 minutes

but I managed to squish in a little like little bits of a few things it was actually really good fun everybody was dancing away so that was lovely for me and then buoyed with that lovely feeling I came home and played some playmobil and changed a loose seat so you know a successful day all round and today I'm going to have quite a lazy day we're going to go and see Kung Fu Panda in a minute and that's kind of all I've got planned really I just want to do the cupboards be chill very relaxed day everybody's feeling all a bit you know new term at school back to school a little bit tired around the edges so um if you have small people I hope they've started their new terms okay we've had two of my kids start a new school as well halfway like you know halfway

through a year which isn't the easiest but they're actually handling it all right, I think, she says optimistically three days in. And this week's guest. So I have been wanting to speak to Michelle Agandhen on the podcast for a little while because, well, as you've probably worked out by now, it's an excuse for me to get in touch with people I admire. So I think she's got such a good eye. Her eye of how she views architecture, interiors, colours, so well honed, so tasteful. So I first became aware of Michelle's work when she was editor-in-chief of Elle Decoration,

which is a beautiful interiors magazine, and I was getting it on subscription for probably about 15 years so I had a very impressive pile of old decorations I never ever would throw away and then eventually I kind of went through and cherry picked some of my favorite bits and then did have to say bye because it was taking up so much room and they were so heavy but it was all Michelle's world that I was entering because as editor-in-chief she would visit lots of different homes and I just love seeing what people have done with their houses and every month I'd see something that would inspire

me and I think okay now that's how I want to do it and actually I've realized that I was reading it all throughout the time when I was finding my feet with regard to like the home I wanted to have for myself so I think I first started reading it when I was in my early 20s and going through different flats and different rentals and different rooms and different buildings and just experimenting with what you can do inside your, you know, once you get through your front door that makes home feel the way you want it to. I do still love all of that. Houses evolve as well, don't they? They're like breathing things, you know, they kind of need to move with you. That's probably why I'm in the middle of a clearer actually um anyway subsequent to the uh l decoration i would watch

michelle as head judge on what was the great british interior design challenge and is now interior design masters interior design masters is hosted by alan carr it sees a group of young amateur interior designers being given different spaces to transform and i find it really addictive and so impressive how people think i can do wall colorings and soft furnishings that kind of thing actual sort of reimagining space and furniture and form and function like that I don't think that's my skill set and Michelle is so good because she's very articulate she's very nuanced in her responses to places and always even when people are leaving the competition she always makes them feel valued and that they can really appreciate what how far they've come and what the competition has given to them which I always think is such a thoughtful and kind way to treat people going

through that kind of experience and following Michelle on Instagram she also does lots of stuff on her lifestyle on holistic stuff so she's now training in doing a food nutrition course and she she's going to be a nutritionist as well as someone who looks at how in your home environment and environment affects your mental health anyway it was a lovely conversation with her i think she's incredibly wise and she also when she came to record here she brought along her little boy who was a complete delight. And yeah, so just pure pleasure, all the good stuff. And look, I didn't get interrupted. Hurrah! I've managed to do my intro. See you on the other side.

Firstly, it's really nice to see you. Oh, lovely to see you too. And I'm happy because I brought you to my home and it's a little bit of, not pressure exactly, but just an awareness that you're someone that's going to be taking in all the detail. I appreciate the intimacy of that because I know when your home is at such a personal space,

you don't want to be judged, do you? You don't want someone to go, oh, well, it was a bit like this. But often people have joked to me, it's like, well space it is you don't want to be judged do you you don't want someone to go well it was a bit like this but um i mean i often people have joked to me it's like well you can't come around i don't walk into people's homes and judge it it's just it's such a glorious expression of the person and you you take the person as the person and it's just but it is just fabulous i could spend hours here just having a look at everything because i know the expression of the person absolutely but i bet every single thing in here has got meaning for you hasn't it so it's like the story of your life I do like that it's beautiful and I do think it's interesting

because everybody's got such a different relationship with their stuff and their home and you know the you know there's a couple of ways I came to know about you. Initially, I think it was through my subscription to Elle Decoration because I was a subscriber to that from, I think, for about 10 years. Wowza. Yeah, all through your tenure, though. So you started there in the late 90s, I believe. Was it 97 or 98? Well, editing from 2004, I'm thinking vaguely,

and then finished 2017. Yeah, I would have had pretty much every single month of that stuck by my bed. Oh, wow. And I just loved delving into the pages of it so much. And I would always see your note at the beginning of the issue and just sort of drinking the whole idea. It was so indulgent to me to open this whole world in these pages. But then latterly, through watching the great British Interior Design Challenge,

and now known as Interior Design Masters, which I absolutely adore and was happily enough invited to be a guest judge on. I know, I'm so thrilled that you were able to do that. I really was. Because I know that we sort of connected early in the sort of of and I wasn't able to kind of join you on something and then I loved being able to was it maybe about a year later going hey actually can I offer you a counter offer like please will you come and do this with me because I really I wanted to meet you yeah so good and I loved it and I think you are so brilliant on that program because you're so wise articulate and experienced but also so

encouraging with all of the people starting their journeys but the other thing as I've sort of gone through the layers of all the stuff you've done in your book and stuff I feel like you've really given gravitas to something that I think because I've always loved creating a world in my home. I love that feeling. And I grew up in a house like that. But I felt like it's always been treated as a sort of aside. Like if you, you know, if you like colour, if you like, if you want to put your personality in your home,

it's like, well, that's nice for you. But I've realised the significance of environment. And I love the fact you sort of elevated it to be, and it's so logical really when you step back from it, to be such an integral part of what makes us tick. So why don't we talk a little bit about that and your relationship with, I suppose it's broader than interiors, isn't it?

It's environment, isn't it? Well, I mean, yeah, if we think about what surrounds us, what affects us, and I love, and I agree, well, I'll go back a step, but I think yeah, if we think about what surrounds us affects us. And I love and I agree. Well, go back a step. I think it is that people think, well, you have to be creative to make your home kind of look lovely. And so it's not fundamental. It could be perceived as a bit fickle because it's like, well, it's just paint and cushions, isn't it? And if you have time, you can do that.

And I think one of my things is when we talk about well-being, we cheerily mention food, nutrition, exercise, the importance of sleep. But we very seldom talk about what's around us, our environment. And arguably your home is like it's where it all comes together. And so that was always my thing. It's like if we want to talk properly about well-being, we've got to talk about the spaces that we live in. Because also I think there's like stats say that we spend 90% of our time indoors and then you think through the pandemic I think suddenly the penny dropped for people because they lots of people were talking about being stuck indoors and it's like therein lies the problem because for me my home is my favorite place to be in the whole world

like it's hard push to get me out of it so So, you know, well done. I am here, I have tracked from Kent to the furthest reaches of London, as far as I'm concerned. But, you know, it is your, my mission is to help people create environments in which to thrive and to understand that it's really, really important and it does make a difference.

So like when I'm looking around, you know, in your living room now, you've surrounded yourself with your story which is so reinforcing and so empowering because it's also telling me that you know who you are and so to return to a space like that every time that you go out into the world and the world can be hard and difficult and busy and annoying but to come back to a space and go oh okay I know who I am because I think many of the problems that people have in life is because either they don't know who they are or they don't feel accepted for

who they are so your home is a space where you can like create that security that's so true and just to sort it's you you've arrived you're a little boy he's just 10 10 how how have you found helping him create a story in his space or is it something where did that come naturally to let him have his own space I think kids just do it intuitively and they're there you've just got to let go you've just got to let go and let them do it I mean there are things where it's like could we pick up things at the end of the day could we you know and I will love to color coordinate his lego because just because I'm saying it's like it's easier to find the pieces if you're trying to rather than like delving through the multi-colored box but you've colour coordinate his Lego. Oh, wow. I had a go at that. It's easier to find the pieces

if you're trying to, rather than delving through a multicoloured box. So you've got drawers with it all in colours? No, we've got, you know when you buy those fat balls for the birds, they come in kind of tubs usually. So we use those tubs. Oh, that's a good idea.

So they're quite nice because they've got lids as well so you can stack them, which is quite nice. And books, you know, for me, I like to arrange them them by type so there's all his like sort of computery nerdy pokemon ebooks together and then all the story books together but i mean he just pulls them out and they're going everywhere and but he likes to cover the

walls and it's just like it's your space so i do think that's one thing the thing that makes me super sad is when someone has done a beautiful home and they've done their color scheme and then they've extended it into the kid's room. So you see these lovely neutral beige rooms. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. No child ever picks beige as their background colour. It's like, just let them, let them do it. And it's, you know, they have so little autonomy day to day.

I think it's the beginning of allowing them to be who they want to be. So true. day to day i think it's the beginning of allowing them to be who they want to be so true i remember moving house when i was having my second baby and looking around this house and the the kids room in the house i was looking in right at the top all black no toys i was like this is telling me things so it was like it was screaming at me this room like it was so sad and weird yeah i've forgotten all about that but it was yeah it was it at me, this room. It was so sad and weird. Yeah, yeah. I'd forgotten all about that, but yeah, it was a bit strange. But do you think some of our relationship with environment

is cultural as well? Because when you were talking, I realised that there are some countries where I think they've got a much more, they're much more at ease with their aesthetic language. Yes, that's true. I mean, I suppose, you know, if we think Scandi, we immediately think all paired back, big windows, birch wood furniture and very minimal.

And that is their cultural heritage. But they'll be hoarders in Scandinavia. But then if we think of like our history, it's the brown wood Victorian furniture, probably a bit claustrophobic and cluttered. I mean, that's the cliche, but that's also our housing stock. Yes.

But then you see what people have done with the sort of side return and knocking down the back and adding extensions. But then often I think the pursuit is correct. They want more light and space, but that often means that the front room then gets completely neglected. Yeah.

So it's actually, I often say to people, you don't need more space you need less stuff yes because we tend to you know hold on to stuff and yet I think one of the great things about moving is it forces you to re-evaluate and to just let go sometimes there's just such liberation and letting go but but it's interesting because I say this as someone that's sort of in the process of moving I'm completely committed to it yet we have moved to a new house but I wanted to travel really lightly so I took the main pieces of furniture because I was leaving some things in the old house and what was interesting to me is all my little knickknacks chokchis things whatever I left them all behind wow because one because the new place doesn't have shelves or windowsills or mantelpieces or anything. But I found it quite easy to leave them.

And then we've been back twice and there were a few little things. I'm like, actually, this is super precious to me. This I want. But I'm amazed that so much of it, I was just like, yeah, fine, I can stay here. So I don't know yet what I'm going to do with that stuff, whether I box it and stick it somewhere,

which goes against my kind of like, no, if you're not going to have it out on display, you shouldn't have it. But then equally, I'm going to do with that stuff whether I box it and stick it somewhere which goes against my kind of like no if you're not going to have it out on display you shouldn't have it but then equally I'm thinking like one of my favorite things in my son's room and something we moved wholesale is he has these two little shelves I'm waving my arms around here I think they were originally cd shelves so they're about a meter high and each one's a meter wide so they've got lots of little compartments all open absolutely stuffed with all these little bits and pieces and so it's like his dual curiosity shelves and sometimes when he's at school i will just sit and just look at it yeah because it's like it's like oh wow this is this is him this is what he's into and so the beautiful thing for him when we moved is arranging taking everything out the boxes and putting it all

back yeah once he'd done that he was like okay i'm moved now that's interesting though about you leaving a lot of things i actually can kind of relate to that and my eldest he has got on the surface of it a similar relationship to his things as me so in his bedroom when he was living at home there were things everywhere little things some things when he was really small some things added later but when he moved he took about three things and everything else stayed I think it's maybe because you you're stepping in when you do a big move like that maybe it's almost like you're stepping into a new skin yeah so you shed somehow and for me this our move is very much that it's stepping into a life that I've dreamt about and

thought about and planned for and finally done and I just suddenly realized oh but it surprises me because like you all my things have a story yes but then equally like I mean this will probably give me like oh my god it's a very insight into me is over the last probably five years I've been doing something called my albuming project which is basically I have these albums they're just from like the tiger stationery I think about a3 size about this thick they're scrapbooks but I have archived my entire life tell me more about that like you know your my tear sheets my school reports like love letters cards all the stuff that you keep wow the thing is I used to keep it all separate so there there was like, you know, personal stuff here,

work stuff there, other stuff, all very compartmentalised. And so I think the process for me, just in my stepping into a new skin, was actually bringing it all together. That's fascinating. But it's just, but when I was doing it, there are bits that I was like, oh my God, Michelle. So for example, when I was editing the magazine,

I only by looking through all the sort of history documents, I realised that I'd had a miscarriage, been hospitalised, and was on a plane to Milan the next day. Because the diary, the work diary, was separate. And the medical things were here. And it was like, I had to look at it and look at it and go, seriously? Like, what the heck? What on earth?

Why did you do that? And it was only by bringing this stuff together. It's been this real process for me of actually, I think actually fully integrating myself. Because you know, with certain jobs, it's a front, isn't it? You have this polished, wonderful persona. You're not allowed to have dents in you. You're not allowed to have bad days.

You can't turn up to a concert and be like, actually've got a bit of a headache today you have to take that anodine and get on with it absolutely and yet we realize to fully become ourselves and be authentic and be truthful you have to actually go I mean for god's sake go actually I was in hospital yesterday so I need to change that flight and not worry that you're going to lose your job but it wouldn't have occurred to me to do it and I think that's what but it was only by doing this albuming that I've just and it was so fascinating I mean slightly I think weird slash scary slash eye-opening that I wasn't aware of this stuff until I did it but I think that was my process and then I finished it at um last year the end of last year because I was like I wasn't aware of this stuff until I did it but I think that was my process and then I finished it

at um last year the end of last year because I was like I can't keep doing this because I am literally living in the past because I'm like oh a rainy day let me do 1999 you know but it's there and I've got it all in a big row on the floor of my new study and it's like okay but I almost feel I could almost throw it all away now do you know what I mean it's a process it's like okay but I almost feel I could almost throw it all away now do you know what I mean it's a process it's almost and yeah back at it all and and I mean sort of armchair psychologists would and me would say that maybe at the time the separate the separation was completely vital to just survival yes exactly and the rawness and sadness of something like a miscarriage that means you you know where you're in hospital as well and then the next day work as normal on the plane off you

go um probably at that time that just felt like what you needed to be getting on with it it's not even maybe thinking through about losing your job although obviously that's you know fact but maybe just people interacting with you in a completely day-to-day way yeah yeah because you didn't share the personal you would the last thing you would have said is like oh well actually because also you don't want to declare that you're actually trying to get pregnant yeah you know not at that level so you know the only reaction they're going to give is a sad reaction to that then no one that's the only possible response would be I'm so sorry that happened to you yeah which then unlocks that thing so then there you are having

tears in the office type thing and so you don't want to have any option that that could happen but I mean it's I mean I find it fascinating I find it fascinating to look back and and because you see your evolution yes Yes. And I suppose this is like, you know, we evolve and we grow and it feels like you're very good at keeping an eye on yourself doing that. It's almost like you've got an idea, almost a conscious idea of that. Sometimes these things happen a bit more like you reflect, oh, actually've I've realized by doing that process but by actually archiving that's a very conscious yeah way of looking at

yourself and seeing the journey and all the things that were running concurrently I think I'm very now it is very important to me to act very consciously and to be aware because I'll often, maybe I'll feel something and I can't quite articulate it. And so I'll make sure that I sit with that and go, OK, what's this telling me? Or like what your body's telling you and being aware of the patterns that we have and that we inherit that sometimes maybe are not very good for you. I mean, for example, I mean, we mentioned it briefly before um you know that I've just moved and so I've you know as a single parent as well I've packed up the house I've found a new school I found the new house I've you know sorted out the uniform I've organized the move we've unpacked everything was done because you just get on with it you know and I think as women as well you just

get on with stuff and I wouldn't have told you that I felt stressed you know people said oh how's it going you know supposed to be the most stressful thing I'm like well it's good we're fine we're done I'm all unpacked but then five days later my skin just went and I was just like exhausted and then feeling like why am I exhausted I've just done this amazing thing I'm not stressed and it's like I think maybe you are you know this is this is how your body tells you that you need to slow down yeah take a take them in and just just just relax you know I think it's not for nothing that I have a basset hound as my dog because I look at him and go I need to be more basset okay just chill okay so it's you know so I've learnt to try and understand myself

in order to protect myself. And I think that also ties into being a single mum. It's like it drives my interest in wellbeing, in nutrition, because I need to stay alive because, you know, my child needs me. So there's that too, which is maybe a pressure, but it's also a motivation no I think that's lovely and I like the fact that all of it's so conscious I actually think that's a very brave way to live and I say brave because I think there's a lot of things when you turn the spotlight on

yourself like even you said something that you're finding uncomfortable or difficult and actually just sitting with that rather than what most people do which is just trying to distract yourself away from it as quickly as possible I feel like there's a lot of wisdom in that is that something that you've always had the ability to always oh gosh no no I would say I'm someone that's absolutely learned all my lessons the hard way by doing it wrong and going well that wasn't very a good idea was it so I've now I've thrown myself off the parapet and jumped off the bridges and then I don't I don't seem to have had the ability to just look, you know, you all have those friends that go, well, I wouldn't do that if I were you

because I can see that that's not a good idea and I'd be like, well, how do you know? You haven't tried it. You have to try it, don't you? And then you're halfway through and go, yeah, okay, you were right. Can help, please, can you get me out of here? But so I've had to live it all

but that has sometimes had a bit of a toll so I think now I'm trying to be slightly more of that person that goes well are you sure so it's taken me three years to decide to move but then I've done all the research but then equally one of the other things I realized recently is like sometimes just make the decision just just do it what were you looking for when you were moving? What was your thought space? Space, privacy, not space, physical space, space above my head, privacy.

You know, as the show has got bigger, I've struggled to deal with losing just being anonymous. And I would describe myself as a complete introvert I love to write I like to you know potter around I'm a bit of a scruff and um and finding yourself in Tesco's with someone coming up to you and they're always very nice just I really really found this hard to start off with because it it was almost like that gone back to that compartmentalizing again that it put me into a different place and I'd be thinking oh I'm just here in Tesco's being me and you are looking at me as this other person because I sort of saw that as a slightly different persona because you know

she has professional hair and makeup I mean she looks lovely I mean her skin never breaks out and it's sort of like that thing of like that's still you so I've had to learn that so we're like what five seasons in and I'm more comfortable with it now but I realized I had to do something for myself and so where I was living people knew where I lived and it was I just I felt too exposed you know when you're putting the bins out it's slightly like seriously like yay that's nice but I just want to put the bins out and I am actually wearing my pajamas so you know but um so that's all been I've forgotten what your original question was what you were looking for when you moved I see yes so there was like space around me privacy but also I really do you remember the the sitcom The Good Life yeah okay and so you have Margot and Barbara

and I think well back a step again I think one of the interesting things about TV is lots of people that's where they meet you for the first time so people think that's all of me that's all I do I'm only allowed to talk about cushions and colors and I'm a TV judge and I always look that nice with my hair done. So that's maybe they think I'm a bit Margot, but actually I'm Barbara. I crave and want to be Barbara. I want to be off grid. I want to grow my own vegetables. I want to make my own vodka or whatever. I just, I love that. And that is actually the core of me. So I needed to be able to do that and I couldn't do that in my current place so my dream is a completely off-grid homestead but it's also tied into the wanting to teach so I wanted enough space that I could have people come and it's like because I'm

so passionate about the whole like happy inside way it's like I need you to come stay here for two days and feel it tell me that you sleep better like this tell me what you feel like when you're surrounded in a non-toxic environment and so the teaching is to do with interiors or architecture holistically all of it i suppose the understanding kind of what we were saying at the top of our conversation that what surrounds you affects you so you know I hear people saying oh god I sleep terribly and then you think well let talk to me about what's your bedroom like you know what do you actually surround yourself with what do you do before you go to bed when do you have your last meal all these things are interrelated yeah and so it's

to try and help people to really understand that and to understand that there are these little shifts that you can do that you might think oh that's not going to affect me but they will and they add up and it's the same as sort of thinking that some of the things that I point out say in my books is that I say well these are toxic like each one individually isn't going to slay you and you'd be dead in two minutes but you start adding them up and then this is what I talk about then the toxic load that you're just making a whole body work so much harder yeah and life is already hard so a lot of what I want to try and teach and share is like let's just stack the odds in your favor let's just help you to help yourself and let's not forget that the foundation of all of

this is where you're coming back to every night where you start and finish every day yeah because sometimes it's such an afterthought actually particularly bedrooms weirdly yes because you think a lot about your living environment where you you know your kitchen and your sitting room maybe because you're they're the public spaces yes public and also i think you're kind of quite fresh and in a maybe more of a doing mode yeah and then bedroom like my bedroom is probably given about a quarter of the love, I think. Oh, wow. So I would always like start with the bedroom.

Yes. Because how you sleep is getting it underpins kind of everything. And it will give you the energy because bottom line is like you want to live. You want to live your life. You want to feel energized and positive and vibrant and all that stuff. And yet we do just tend to think well what are you eating are you exercising it's like no no no no please let's come back to the foundation of it all yeah so true so that's it i want interiors to come off the back pages of the

newspapers and into the front pages yeah well i think that's wonderful and and when we talk about it i feel like it's such a as as I said before, logical. Yeah. But it's just a shift in mindset. And, you know, I know that there's science to back up all of this stuff as well, if that's what's needed, even though we all have our inherent responses to environments all the time, to everything. Yeah, yeah.

No, that's beautifully put, because I think there's a lot of, certainly when I was writing the first book, it's like it's based largely on my intuitive knowledge and some of the responses was like well where's the science it's like well the science is there it's catching up so with the one that i'm working on now it's like well i'm putting the science in then if that's what it takes to convince you then fine i'll put it in but trust me this stuff it matters and if we go with your your these amazing um albums you've been doing the obsession the obsession i know i'm i think you have to keep them at the end when you said you might get rid of them i think you put them somewhere because they sound like something that might be like you know your son might like reflecting oh no he tortures me about it says

yeah the minute you die mommy i'm getting rid of them oh thanks thanks for the love yeah because he's seen me it's like you're gonna album this aren't you like it's the refrain like he'll do a little drawing i'm like oh that's so lovely it's like you can't album it it's like but i'm keeping it safe so it's become a bit of a joke between us now because now obviously i'm in the current day yes so everything i'm like oh can i put the train ticket in it's like i'm actually really impressed you've managed to keep it going as it feels like the sort of project i would buy the books from tiger i'd be sat there and then it'd be like i'd do it for a little bit and then it would just sit on a side it literally became an obsession

like where you'd go on holiday and i would take a year because the first thing was because i had do you remember what year everything happened well some of it's got it dated there are there's now like one random box left where it is literally like i'm like scanning it and sending it to my sisters and going do you remember when this picture was taken they're like oh god she's still albuming and some things i'm like i could just throw it away please just throw it away because you don't know when this happened but most things have got dates on them but the first thing i did was like get all the random boxes of everything and I put it all in chronological order so then I was able to go right I am literally going to do 2001 and I take all of that stuff and it was just

it was kind of fascinating but there were definitely points when I was like I'm really really bored of doing this now I just I need it done I want to throw this stuff away but I can't I feel compelled to just keep going and I suppose it's because it had an end it was like just keep going you know but it's also fascinating because there's like tear sheets from magazines so the people that I was into yeah so I don't know like I find Gwyneth Paltrow deeply fascinating and I've got really early interviews with her from like the very first movies and then I've got the latest one so it's like almost the people that I was interested in have stayed quite constant too well what are you interested in about her just her lifestyle yeah just I find her just intriguing you know what the path that she's taken and the whole goop thing and

the phenomena and that like you know extreme wellness but then how she's managed it and how she's now like hey I don't give a fuck. Yeah. And you just think, yeah, well, why should you? You're like multi-blimmin' millionaires, perfectly happy, lovely husband, beautiful children. You know, it's like, but I just, I find it how she seemingly, because obviously I'm not in her world, deals with it. It just seems to me very kind of holistic and wholesome.

And she, it's that joy of like, she knows who she is. Well, when I interview her on Spinning Plates, I'll ask her your questions. Ah, yes, yes, yes, yes. Hasn't happened yet. She would be a great guest. She does have a plate room though. I'm sure that, I think I did a piece

with the Daily Mail on that, that Gwyneth Paltrow has a plate room. It's like a big sort of armoire like you have here, but just with very specific plates on. She's like, okay, that's quite specific. Wow. I think she's a Scorpio as well, though, see, and I'm fascinated by Scorpios as one.

Okay. I don't know much about star signs. What are you? I'm an Aries, same as your boy. Yes, my boy. Of course you are. You just had your birthday. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, no, you're... Apparently I have Aries rising so i present as one but then i'm not because then i get scared and go i don't i don't know this is too much but no aries is wonderful sign you're the first i don't know loads about it i used to look into it and then i was like oh don't be ridiculous and stopped but i do always love to know because i think you know how sometimes you just intuitively click with people yes but equally other people you just kind of don't yeah it's like well could be could be this could be that but there's so many other things that affect personality and character but why not yeah why not

the pull of the you know the planets that pull the oceans of the world in and out yeah i mean i i am i'm someone that's quite cynical about it but then i i basically you're supposed to i know and also i'm surrounded by people who are aries absolutely surrounded oh that's interesting april is always the month where i have to keep texting people every day like happy birthday to you oh and happy birthday to you oh wow yeah so you've got all that lovely fiery energy i mean i love it as a sign i think it's just brilliant because you just have well you just have i mean i just think you know my son couldn't be more perfect for me because he brings out of me the thing you know he makes me have fun he makes me do stuff that i'm like oh well i don't know okay fine i know you're

right so yeah ultimately an aries will be the best partner for me for sure well why don't we go back to when you had and what was happening in your world when you had your baby oh my goodness that um yeah gosh where to start it's funny because it's not funny that's such a weird word to use but um I was never someone that thought they didn't want children absolutely not but I thought I was ambivalent so I was you know I was fulfilled I was busy I was having fun I was like dating great people and I was just living and I figured well if it happens it happens if it doesn't it doesn't I have two sisters who both definitely wanted children. So I was like, oh, I'm going to be the greatest auntie. Fast forward a bit and it never seemed to happen.

And then it did. I fell pregnant. And in the action of a baby growing inside me, it was the most extraordinary thing. And in that moment, I kind of realised well what a privilege what an absolute privilege that if your body can do this and I mean sadly I lost that baby although it's not actually sadly because the person I was with would have been the worst father and he behaved terribly so that was all awful and the idea that I'd have to be sharing custody with him now would be just a disaster.

But I think it was the universe going, are you sure? Because I was like, oh, well, I've missed the boat now. You know, it had gotten a bit too late. And so I do think it was an absolute blessing of being told, like, you need to decide about this. You can't keep drifting through thinking, oh, well, we'll just see what happens.

You need to consciously about this you can't keep drifting through thinking oh well we'll just see what happens you need to consciously make a decision and I think the biggest lesson there with all life things is that you have to focus on your priorities and I was very I was kind of prioritised on work but not a kind of not in a kind of my career goes over everything not at all like that I was just busy and living but um and so that then I realized it's like if there's even the slightest chance that I could have a baby I need to know I tried so that started I think it was five years worth of like RUI IVF you know just all any which way to see if it would happen and it seemed like I didn't have a problem getting pregnant but I had a problem keeping the baby because I simply I just left it quite late and we know that our eggs age and stuff so it was sort of how long you could just keep going really

and so I think four more miscarriages later and all manner of injecting myself with this that and the other but I finally had my baby but one thing that I did before that is um I did something called the Hoffman process which I don't know if you know about but it's about examining your past and your the things that you bring with you into the present day that have maybe learned from from your parents and stuff and I think one of my big blocks was that I was scared that I'd be a bad mother because I don't think I was mothered very well my mother was very un-maternal and so I didn't feel like I had a good role model and so it's like well how can I how could I do this and I think that was a bit of a block and doing this process and it was like a five-day intensive course thing that you're out and they take away your phones and everything I mean it's major I mean loads of tears and bashing things and getting

all this anger I had anger inside me and um and I fell pregnant like maybe two months after that and I do feel it was like it opened up this opportunity for me to, I was like, I was ready now. I was able to receive him. And without sounding like a complete cliche, it is, it was and is the absolute biggest gift, best thing that ever happened to me. And I mean, he's just turned 10 and in his little card, I'm just like, you know, you're the best thing that ever, ever happened to me.

Because it just, in that instant, all your priorities priorities shift and I realized there was nothing I wouldn't do for him and suddenly now I was going to work I'm like right I have to leave you know that's it and it just put it everything into a much more healthy kind of box but then also just the responsibility because I think when you choose to have children or if you're able to have children it is also the moment or it should be maybe I don't mean that to sound judgy but it was for me the moment when you go it's not about me anymore like it just this is where I become selfless and then that's really hard at times because you come so low down the pecking order sometimes, you know, but the understanding of really unconditional love was just mind-blowing to me. And then watching this person develop, you know, then he's not me, he's not a mini me, he's a completely separate person. And he's so like his little curiosity shelves. It's like, wow, how did you get into

this? Or like the words he'll use sometimes i'm like oh my god you know you're holding this being trying to hold them so lightly and yet at the same time you're like please never leave home and can i wrap you in cotton wool and like don't do anything dangerous ever will you because i i will just die a thousand deaths if anything happens to you and it's just it's been the hardest thing in the world but the most joyful in every every possible way but I mean you know I'm sitting here looking at you you have five children I mean just you know this you know all this stuff already I I do but I'm thinking I hope I've had as much appreciation in the moment of all these things because sometimes I think because I had my first baby when I wasn't expecting to have one

and then it's all, I felt like I was in such a gallop when I had Sonny. I absolutely marveled at him in exactly the same way, of course. But I felt like there was just always things happening, swirling around. Yeah. And I don't know if I've had as much of a chance to reflect on how much it's changed me. It definitely did. I mean, the impetus of having this podcast

came out of the way it knocked me for six in lots of ways. And, you know know really good stuff but also just changed things and there was yeah definite before and after and some of it's the practical side of how you know your actual life and day-to-day it changes but also the fundamental stuff yeah and having to sort of find myself again but I feel like I haven't done it in a way that's quite as conscious as you so hearing you say all that was making me beam because I was thinking it's so beautiful to really appreciate

but see it in that way and I saw you put a post um I think it's from last year but it was talking about how you know part of being a single mum has meant you've actually done a very conscious way of living in that space with him so the relationship you guys have is wonderful like my mum was a single mum with me for about three or four years when I was sort of before I was in double digits and it completely formed the keystone to our relationship and I don't think I really really understood that until I had a chance to reflect on it from conversations like this really yeah so I think lucky him really that he can you've got all that you know sun beating down on him and when you said about holding him lightly but also thinking I'd never do any of these things it's so true because they they grow

up and um you know you get blown away by who these people are there's a line I think it's in lost in translation where Bill Murray says you have your kids and then when they grow up and, you know, you get blown away by who these people are. There's a line, I think it's in Lost in Translation, where Bill Murray says, you have your kids, and then when they grow up, they turn out to be some of the nicest people you've ever met. And I always thought that was such a nice thing to say. It's so true, because you sort of marvel. Every independent thought they have as well, you're like, wow, crazy. Tell me more about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

As they get older, it just gets more and more fascinating. I mean, I think, you know, I think I only have the advantage of having that so consciously because I did it later. And because I was at that stage where, and I've seen this over and over because I've had largely female teams as well, that women feel they've had to give up something

in order to have the child. And quite often they have. They physically give up their jobs. They give up up their autonomy they give up their financial independence but I'd achieved a certain level in my work that I was like it's fine and so I was I was moving into again another level or layer or something of life where I didn't feel I was giving anything up I was gaining and I think that mentally really really helped because there was no sense of loss there was only a sense of like wow but then also complete fear you know when you leave hospital and you're like you can't just leave me looking after this human being it's like I might kill it

like don't go anywhere but um but then you know so every year it's like, wow, another year and I didn't kill him. We're still here. But I mean, yeah, it's just the most extraordinary thing. I mean, I just I love hanging out with him completely. But I'm also I'm quite strict. He's not like my mate. He's my son. I'm his mum.

And there are rules. And that's one of the sort of, you know, again, single parenting. There's only one way things go. So that's sort of easy. But on the other side, there's like, you do everything. So I was sort of reflecting when I was so tired after moving. It was like, actually, give yourself a break, Michelle. You have just packed the whole house. You've moved him.

You found a new school. You got sorted out the car. Something went wrong with that. And you've done all of this stuff and you're cooking all the meals. Because I don't know about you, but it's the cooking that actually stresses me out. When he's like, what's for tea?

Comes around so quick as well. They're always hungry as well, aren't they? Always. Always. You're just like, I don't know what's for tea. I haven't been, in fact, I don't even know where the supermarket is yet. So it's just like, just can you have a biscuit? You know.

But it's just, yeah, I just don't want to take anything for for granted anymore because like but I can say that because in my 20s 30s I mean god I just everything you know we've we've done it all I've traveled I've done that I've drunk the drunks I've never really did drugs they'll just say that for the record but um you know I've done all all. I've travelled, I've done that, I've drunk the drunks. I've never really did drugs, though, just to say that for the record. But, you know, I've done all the silly stuff. Yeah. And it's a bit like, you know, when you get to New Year

and you just think, actually, I don't need to stand on a bridge anymore. I don't need to be drunk. I don't need to be at a party. I don't need to do that stuff. Actually, what I really like to do is go to bed and wake up at the beginning of the New Year

and go, yay! Yeah. So... I know, you you know that those times have come when midnight suddenly seems really quite late yeah i have to actually see it in or is it fine if that's it can we just acknowledge it on the telly and i just don't very much in that space and i kind of love it and what's it so you mentioned that you were worried about what your motherhood would look like because you didn't feel like you had the map that you you

know might have otherwise had yeah so how did you find that process because I'm sure there'll be people listening that are in similar place that that was incredibly profound because yeah as I said I didn't feel I had the role model my mother is very un-maternal she's not huggy she's not kissy she's not loving in that way at all um and yet when my son was born it was so easy for me to pour my love out and to hug and kiss him and want to protect him and to make him feel kind of wonderful it caused the massive schism because suddenly I was like but it's so easy and whereas before I thought oh well that's just her you know different people you know people mother differently and then I saw it only as profoundly negative um I had a very very loving relationship with my father though

who was absolutely it's been like my role model in life sadly he died um gosh I think now five years ago so when he died the relationship with my mother completely fractured because I had no reason to keep it up anymore but I still I was seeing a therapist at that time because that so much was going on and I needed to be given permission to say well you actually you don't have to keep the relationship so it had always been the pattern had been something would happen she'd go off in a strop I would apologize no matter whose fault it was and then we'd carry on as before and this time something happened that for me really crossed a red line and I was like this time she has to come to me if she could come to me and see just for once that possibly the fault might have been hers then

we've got a chance and that was two years ago and she's never going to come and I'm fine with that now because it was costing me so much emotionally to keep trying to make it work and keep thinking oh god I must be a better daughter just draw a veil over it move on just apologize and it's like you know what this is actually hurting me and I was so angry about it because you keep swallowing stuff and it's like like we've said like that's those very strong emotions they don't go anywhere no they just sit in you yeah and that's what for me the Hoffman process got it out I mean I had one profound thing after I'd done it where I had a dream where it was literally as if this black sticky stuff was coming out of me wow it was so profound I mean so obvious what that was and it was just

like and then I woke up and was like okay that was kind of weird but I think that was the toxicity the anger the holding on stuff, the being a good daughter. You know, I'm the eldest. You have to be away, the job, everything, the front of everything, holding it all down. And I got to the point where it's like, this will kill me. It has to stop. It has to change.

It has to come out. And so that's what I needed to do. And it's hard because my two sisters retain a relationship but they have a very different relationship with her there's quite a big gap between me and my middle sister and the parenting was very different yeah so but we've managed it between us I have a beautiful relationship with both my sisters and that's enough yeah and I think um well I relate to a lot of what you're saying actually it's. I was having a conversation just this morning with a really good friend of mine,

and we were talking about when a relationship, you've just got to point... I always think of it for me as like the shutters coming down, because... And I also think sometimes it can be a long, complicated relationship, but if you realise you're constantly packing away the same feeling and it's not going to shift. It is okay to give yourself permission to move on

and sometimes that's just what you needed. But I think that addressing of anger is absolutely the thing. And I've seen what happens with... I have another friend who had a very complicated relationship with one of her parents and when that parent died, she was sort of left with all this residual anger yes and you've just got to find a space for that yeah so i i completely in that that process of the hoffman or whatever it is people do to

to come to terms with that whatever works for you is fine but you have to understand that that's got to go somewhere it's got to be placed somewhere but you also have to own it because like the obvious way you see that anger come out is on people's nearest and dearest they strike out or they become really irritable and that thing but it is also about owning it and understanding it and going okay this is kind of my shit that i have to deal with but then the other thing that always stayed with me that my therapist at the time said is like, now you need to parent yourself. You're so hard on yourself sometimes. Like be your own parent, love yourself. Be the person that goes, hey, well done, Michelle.

Look at you, look at what you just did there. You know, the things that you would do, you do automatically for your children. And it's like, it was also accepting that like, oh, you know, am I allowed to call myself an orphan at this age? It's like, I've lost both my parents. One, sadly, to cancer. The other one, kind of of my own volition.

It's like, wow, okay. That was a bit of a head fuck to deal with for a while until you realise, you know what? You can parent yourself. You're going to be okay. You have loving relationships that are boundaried in a way that is healthy and you you're coming into being fully yourself and this is part of my story because for a long time I just felt awful guilt about it it's like you're

not supposed to do that are you I'm allowed to do that and yet you go yeah you can because you've Lord knows you've tried and you've really thought about this so do you think maybe this you know the the developments with you know your relationship your mum your scrapbooking and you start with the home are these all feeling like they're very much happening oh god yes it's some sort of massive confluence i mean the next time you see me i should probably have dyed my hair purple or something. What's going to be the outward expression of this thing? But no, absolutely.

I mean, I think... If you do dye your hair a different way, I bet it'll be in a tone that is completely at harm to your environment. I'll be in tone with my palette. Exactly. Or chameleonic, and it'll change as I move from room to room, wouldn't it? But no, it's...

I just... You know, God, life is a gift, isn't it but um no it's it's I just you know god life is a gift isn't it it's a it's a privilege and I just I feel like I'm finally getting it like I literally I feel like oh I feel I'm almost a grown-up I'm almost allowed to step into those shoes because I think for a long time not that I felt kiddish but I was like I wasn't really a grown-up because I didn't have any of those big markers. It's like, well, I got married and that didn't work. So I'm divorced. I had a child. That's a good one. And then, you know, the house was always a bit kooky and the job and I changed stuff. And like, what is my job now when I left the magazine? You know, who am I?

But suddenly all these things, well not suddenly, slowly, these things are coming together. And it's like, oh, actually, I actually I kind of you know I've got a weird and windy story I suppose that's why in a way that you know when I sometimes get comments on Instagram when someone will say like well what right have you got to talk about kind of glucose and you're like huh it's like you don't know anything about me do you there is a little bit more than just appears on that show which I love and is equally a privilege to do but it's like I do one tv show it takes four months of my life yep on off a week the rest of my life most of my time I'm really very happily occupied

doing a lot of other things so the most recent being like training to be a nutritional advisor because I just find it so fascinating and it's the other part of that home health yes I was going to say ball that's not quite the right word but it's the other part of the pie yeah so no but also I think in my experience the people that can teach the best or advise you know give the counsel about things that the people have also lived through it. So to be able to say, you know, your environment, you have to be, you know, reflective of your personality, of where you're at in life, of how you're really living. As you say, your true self, you have done this process completely.

You've lived it. And that's allowed you to be, you know, to give the teachings because that's how it works, isn't it? When you've had it and that's allowed you to be you know to give the teachings because that's how it works isn't it when you've had the yeah the life experience and now you're in this new new home that's going to reflect exactly where you are right now yes i've done my magic isn't that in the trenches although i realize that the new home is step one because we're renting for a year to just test out the waters and also because the school change thing is going to happen soon to sort of from primary to secondary but um and so I was you know it's only like week one and it's like oh right we must action step two

which is to actually find the home that I will then make over but I think also to your point there is something about making a home your own that it is a statement of identity isn't it it is the equivalent of deciding to dye your hair purple it is it's like okay you're creating a vision of yourself in 3d i think and it's funny because it wasn't really until i knew you were going to speak today i was thinking about it so much because i've always enjoyed even when i lived at home i was my mum was really allowed really, let me have complete free reign. So I could paint the walls, I could write on them. I did murals.

Write on the walls? Yeah. I could do murals. So I would get my paintbrush out and have pictures on there. And I think it allows you to really, it's like you said, you know, near the beginning, really, when you're talking about within your four walls you feel held and you kind of know who you are then when you walk out of the front door you just feel that little bit more armor but then you always come

back to it yeah so i think it was i went once went to do um i won't say it was but i did uh an interview with someone for for this and we went around to her house and she said oh I haven't been able to put any of my personality in here I don't really know exactly how to do that and the house was very handsome it was all grays and whites and silvers but it didn't really have any personality and it really stayed with me so I thought I think people get a bit scared about it but also you can do it and change it if you completely change to pick a color on the walls and you go actually no you just change it i know but you're right people do get really scared and i i would try and say to people like if you can get dressed in the morning you can do your home it's

the same thing like you're wearing a fantastic like fuchsia pink top today it's like if someone was wearing that it's like just try it on the wall it's like paint it's like makeup if you don't like it you can repaint over it but try it see what it feels like for you and and but you know maybe they think it's more complicated because like well I have to do it like this or I have to have rules or there's trends I have to follow and it's like there's no shoulds no haves it's your home do whatever you want you know if you if purple polka dots and i don't know fuzzy felt murals is your thing go for it how fantastic would that be i mean i think that actually sounds pretty amazing fuzzy felt mural but you could have them where you peel them off and change them i don't know where that came from but it's just like why not if you know you could you just look

a bit shocked when i said i was allowed to wear it on the walls i'm saying yeah that's a step too far for me for like my son's room it's like no no not on the walls what about if you did it really tiny and in pencil i'd rather you did it on a piece of paper and then i stick the piece of paper on the wall oh i see i don't know yeah there's a boundary i think it's because yeah no that is because i love collage walls like with loads of pictures and paintings and stuff and sticking it on but i think it's because the envelope that I just, yeah, no, God, I wouldn't let him colour on the wall. Maybe I should. Maybe that'll be my next thing.

I think I might have found a little sweet spot for a belly in for the future. It started here. Oh, my God, yeah. You can always paint over it. Well, I know. I should take some of my own advice, shouldn't I? I've got some kids. One of mine, I won't shame him here,

but he's done some graffiti upstairs, which I should take off. It's only in pencil. But he's actually, like, named himself in it, and I'm like, why would you do that? This could have gone right under the radar and signed it at the bottom. I feel like, no, no.

Well, obviously, I know to get cross with. But, I mean there's squiggles on the wall it's not really intentional but you know size is a pen

and people get a little bit enthusiastic it's not like I wouldn't say I'm actively like here's some felt pens go crazy

I have tried to explain to the kids that it's possible to make everything look terrible you know I could take a hammer and smash that wall

you could reduce this whole room to rubble and dust and it'd be horrible. You have to take an active care in wanting your place to look nice and feel nice and enjoy it. But I also think it's okay sometimes to do something a little expressive and sometimes it works. Well, I think you're probably right, you know, because I'm thinking of like, say, the Charleston house where they just painted all the door frames and the furniture and everything. So you know what? It's like the Bloomsbury set. Exactly, yes.

Yeah, that's incredible. We can't do it in the current house because there's a 35-page inventory thing that came with it, which was a bit kind of like, I'm sorry, what can I not do? But you know what? I think I'm imagining the liberation he'd feel of him, like, yeah, go on on then just do it so okay you know this will be my deal i shall make with you when we finally buy the place it should

be in a year then i'm gonna let him color on the walls unless you've already inducted him so much you'd be like no mummy i cannot do this you know that would be wrong but i don't think he will it might be like like my oldest boy always wanted to get a tattoo so i was like okay you can and now he hasn't yet. But he knows it's completely fine, so maybe just having the green light. Maybe it is about having the permission that then they're like, oh, it's not very rebellious then, is it?

Exactly, it's boring. If you're like, yeah, fine, go ahead, knock yourself out, just stay off the face. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, I've done that, yeah. No face, no hands, come on. Neck as well, come on. Oh, gosh, yeah gosh yeah yeah yeah but um no anyway it's you're not into that catch-up yet so i'm gonna scare you none of it might happen

and they sometimes they really surprise you as well you think you know where you're headed with it and then it goes completely different but that actually is one of the other amazing things about children isn't it like you start off and you know you i mean i refuse to read any of the books because i think i started and it was like oh my god this is too too much but you you think you've got it sorted when you've got a bit of a routine at three months and then four months it all changes five months it changes six months it changes and then it keeps doing it like that so you keep thinking yeah totally rocking this i'm sorted and it just keeps moving and you realize well that that is life exactly and it's a huge lesson to learn it is and i think that's one of the wonderful things about raising a child is there this amazing marker of the passing

of time and you know one summer to the next is a different world a different set of things you're dealing with and i think that in turn can inform your environment too you can't think of the house shifts and moves but what are your hopes for the next bit of your life then what have you got planned at the moment with oh god because you're teaching and you've got your lovely paints that just come out with your 16 shades which are beautiful thank you what's the company you've done? It's Graphenstone. So the key thing about them is that this is paint that cleans your air. It has, they can't say it's no VOCs because there's like a trace, tiny, tiny, tiny. So you open the tint, it doesn't smell. But it not only cleans your air, it will suck the pollutants out of your home.

It's the most extraordinary paint. That's incredible. It's the most eco-verified third-party peer-reviewed whatever paint in the world which is why I wanted to work with them that's amazing no it's true it's what paint should be to be honest because most paint is like 37 plastic it's full of toxins you know we used to think that you paint and it would off gas so when the smell feels like it's gone it'll be okay but it doesn't paint off gases over time it's one of the most polluting things really yeah really is in use wear and tear throwing it away at the end of it i had no idea i thought that was gone with the victorian era

where they used to put well that was lead yeah that was properly kind of like don't chew on that pencil but um but no it's still and you and I think that's that's what's so alarming because we think paint well paints everywhere it can't be bad can it but if there's been a little bit of a theme in anything of I've been researching it is the stuff that's right there yeah that you kind of go oh okay that's not really as clean as I thought it was or as safe as I thought it was or just as healthy for us as I thought it was so it as safe as I thought it was, or just as healthy for us as I thought it was. So it's just about, I want to sort of bring awareness to that and then offer help and just go,

look, these are the things you can do. But don't freak out. Some things the horse has bolted, but there are things that you can do. But to your question of my plans, like I have never, ever, ever been able to do, like my sister can do a five-year plan. She knows how she's celebrating her 50th birthday thing you know and it's just extraordinary to me but um I don't know

I'm kind of letting it fold I need to do more some more commercial projects because I simply do not earn enough money so and I'm not going to be able to realize the homestead thing with the space unless I sort that out so I that's the sort of stepping into being a grown-up I think um so hopefully more collaborations and really trying to extend the message but my my true mission is I just I love to write I'm a nerd I love to do the research I love to kind of so learning about paint was like well it can't be that bad can it and then you look and you start reading and you find the reports because the reports and the sciences are actually all out there. Yeah. But, you know, most of us were busy.

So it's like, well, I can be unbusy at times and I'll do the research. So that's what I've done. And so a lot of that is out through Substack, which I now use as my home for my writing. And so the nutrition course as well. Oh, my my god so fascinating so I literally just put up a post about sugar and glucose because I was like why is everyone wearing those monitors yeah is that good is it bad so I wore one for like a week to research and I did the research and looked into it all and I just I like to share it just put it out there and go

oh guess what look look about this and um so i just i really i want to continue doing that i have a second book that will come out it's been a little bit delayed but um and that one's more of a handbook so i'm kind of saying to you that there's there's i have a four-step mantra where you clear contain color and curate and then that's applied room by room and then but in each room i'll give you like here's the quick thing you can do here's a bit more of a moderate thing and here's a complete overhaul and then the sort of game changes in between that so that's much more that you can pick up and go right i need to do something in my bedroom right now what am i going to do and that but and the

cleanse chapters did i say oh no i think i might have said that wrong so clear cleanse contain and curate so the cleanse bit is the like i need to help you make your home a toxic free space yeah so they're they're the bits that i get very sort of excited about so i guess just keep on trucking yeah i'm not doing all that stuff five-year plan girl either no i just it scares me a bit because it's like well i don't know i might make a beautiful five-year plan and then change my mind tomorrow. Yeah. So we'll see. I think just keep trucking is good enough, isn't it?

Thank you so much, Michelle. Oh, no, gosh, thank you. I'll have to go and break the news to your son that he's allowed to draw on the wall, so. Yeah, I think I'll let you do that. But don't start here. Don't start here. You can go home with a Sharpie. No, I'm just joking.

Oh, God. I'm just joking oh god i'm not even gonna bring it up don't worry oh no thank you you make chatting i just i loved when we worked together on interior design masters because it was just like we'd like known each other for years or something and we just sort of clicked in and got chatting and i found you very it was very easy to say actually sophie can i ask your advice about this that and the other and it's like so you don't really know her very well so but it was just it was lovely very natural and I was I was actually really um firstly I was really happy it was like stepping into a show I've worked I mean I've literally not missed a single episode um but also I found it just it's such a privilege to be able to step into these environments and to talk

about it and it's I mean it's be able to step into these environments and to talk about it and it's I mean it's really preaching to the converted because I'm obsessed with looking around me and how things make me feel but yeah it was great but you were so eloquent as well though in and also the I guess you were right in an area that you absolutely have expertise on so which is why it was so perfect yeah if, if you're doing dressing rooms as well. Yes, so backstage dressing rooms. Yeah, really cool. Ah, lovely.

Oh, and there's my cat. Titus, that was right on cue. He's like, wrap it up, I'm hungry. Let's go and feed the kids as well. Thank you so much. cakes as well. Thank you so much. Hi, I'm now inside the shoe cupboard. That's what's been happening. While you've been listening to Michelle and I, I've been clearing out the shoe cupboard and there was so much stuff we were holding on to we didn't need. It's crazy.

You pull it out and you're like, I found two rain buggy covers. They're quite bulky, aren't they? Those big rain covers you put on buggies. We don't have a buggy anymore. Didn't need that. I found shoes that no one knew who they belonged to. They were just like mystery shoes.

Richard had bought doubles of things without realising. Yeah. Anyway, it's been a positive. And I'm going to keep on going, keep on trucking. Isn't Michelle brilliant? I really appreciate her openness in talking about her complicated relationship with her mum. And I know she is far from alone in finding herself without a map that worked for her when it came to parenting I've spoken that she took quite a few

people on the podcast now where it's maybe made them realize that aspects of their own parent you know how they were parented scared them about how they might replicate it but also want to be part of the change um so yes i really appreciate her honesty with that and also i just thought it was so nice to talk to somebody who's taken such an active approach to recognizing and working out where she's actually at in life i just feel like sometimes it's quite easy to let the look of the grass grow a bit fallow and you don't really look at your needs your lifestyle and i suppose because she is so in touch with her environment and we're starting you know afresh with a new home it makes you really look at the here and now of like what do i actually want to surround myself with what do i actually enjoy what do i actually need so yeah all the good stuff has definitely made me think about it for me as well and so thank you to her and um I'm trying to think next week I think it's going to be you know

I never normally like to tell you just in case I change it but I'm pretty confident that next week it's going to be oh gorgeous Vicky uh Vicky Gill who does all the clothing for Strictly and she is such a gorgeous woman and so talented so she works in costume she does all of the twinkly twinkly outfits that you see dancing across the dance floor that's obviously how I met her and she's just one of those women, talented, hardworking, and just very low on the ego front. You know, she just does what she does. She loves what she does. But actually, she's incredibly talented.

And, well, you're here for yourself. She's just very warm. Got a lovely team around her. Another good presence in the world. Anyway, I'm going to love you and leave you from the comfort of my little snug. I can actually sit on the floor in here, at least. That's the thing.

I couldn't even see the floor when I opened up this morning. I'm going to keep going, guys. I'm going to keep deep diving through the horribleness of our shoe cupboard. It's not a very exciting place to be, but it's going to look good when it's done. I hope you have a lovely rest of your day, rest of your week, whatever you're up to. Thank you for coming to find me here.

Please continue to give me your suggestions about who I should speak to. And yeah, it's always a pleasure, never a chore. But I'm not sure I can say the same for clearing out the shoe cupboard. All right. Take care. See you soon. Bye-bye. the same for clearing out the shoe cupboard all right take care see you soon bye bye oh oh i've popped back on because i realized that in all my uh fussing with recording my intro a couple of

times and sorting out piles of unwanted footwear um and coats i've realized i forgot to tell you something or maybe i did tell you i'm gonna say it again or for the first time depending on what happened the first time around i am a a guest judge on Interior Design Masters. The episode has just been released in the same week as this podcast is published. So that's episode seven of the current series, which is, I think, series five of Interior Design Masters. It was such a joy to do it.

I've never missed an episode. I absolutely love that program. And I got to be guest judge on the week where it was a semi-final. And so three designers are changing the interiors of the dressing rooms at Wembley Arena. And it was just, oh, I loved it so much. And I hope you enjoy the series and I hope you enjoy the show. Because it was, there's some proper, proper talent in there. Wow.

Anyway, yeah, I hopped back on to say that because I couldn't remember if I told you. So if I'm saying it twice, you know it twice. And if it's the first time, thank goodness I got back on here. All right, that's it for me. See you soon, baby. Thank you. you