Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 128: Rachel Jackson

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

Rachel Jackson is a jewellery designer whose work I particularly love. We even collaborated with on a necklace design once.  She discovered her passion for her career while solo travelling in South America where she made a good friend Ali in Brazil and then spent 2 months living with his mum Cinderela (yes that really was her name!) who taught her how to make jewellery. 6 weeks after she returned to the UK Ali was killed in a plane accident which made Rachel feel how fleeting life is. She then gave up a well-paid job in TV to pursue her dream of designing and selling her own jewellery. She started with a stall in Spitalfields market, earning very little, and worked up to selling to Liberty and Selfiridges. She often collaborates with charities which gives a meaning and a story to each piece of jewellery.Rachel has two children, Herbie aged 6 and River aged 10. Her husband took a year out of his job to do the lion's share of the child care when they had their 2nd baby, enabling Rachel to grow the company at a crucial time.  Like me, Rachel doesn't really feel she's a baby person but particulalry loves the feeling of being increasingly needed now, as they are getting older. Unlike me, she's an excellent planner and always has plenty of activities sorted out for the weekend. When we spoke, I had a Bank Holiday of nothingness ahead, so I rather envied her good planner trait!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing. It can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Good day to you. I am speaking to you from Friday morning.

The sun is shining and the sky is blue. And when I dropped the two primary kids off this morning, they were doing this thing where it's like health and well-being week, I think they call it. And they're doing something called the Wakey Shakey. So they played really loud pop music and all the kids were jumping about. I was thinking I could happily start my days like that every day. Like a bit of music in the morning. And actually I tried it, didn't I? I think I told you about

that playing last year's second place Eurovision entry, Cha-Cha-Cha, very loud in the mornings. It doesn't really, it doesn't get that wakey, shaky, happy vibe that I might have hoped for. Anyway, today, actually this week, so I've had kind of like a mixed week. On one hand, it's been really chilled. I haven't been songwriting every single day. I've done two sessions. I'm about to do my third. And that's been quite nice. I had a couple of days where I wasn't writing. And I think I needed that. So I'm just crossing the road. But you know, when you imagine you're going to get lots of things done in these little gaps, and then actually, you don't really have so many gaps.

That's kind of been my week. So I haven't quite achieved as many things as I wanted to, but it's all been nice and maybe I kind of needed that. Also, Richard's been away on tour. Sorry, noisy bus. And I've actually quite liked the fact that in the evenings, after I put the last child to bed, I then go and get in bed.

Because when Richard's at home, that might be the time when we sit downstairs and watch something. You know, there might be other things to do. But it's been quite... I mean, obviously, I've missed him. I'm looking forward to him coming home. I'm not saying that. But I've just quite liked the fact that I literally get into bed at, like, I don't know, 10.15, half 10. Then obviously procrastinate on my phone for about an hour.

I know you're not supposed to. You don't need to lecture me. I just like it. It's hard to break a habit if you're enjoying it, right? And I've been listening to my Titanic podcast, which I've just finished. God, what a story. I've turned into a proper, I'm listening to a podcast bore because there's so many interesting facts the rest is history

if you guys are interested and I've recorded a podcast for you and yeah it's been a good week slightly mixed some poignant moments I went to a funeral which was someone I hadn't met

actually a friend of mine's nephew I've been lucky enough to not go to the funeral of a young person before I didn't realize how heartbreaking well I did realize how heartbreaking it would be but I just don't think I've been to a funeral where people speak and everybody talks about what that person was like as a baby and growing up and of course not knowing this young man who seemed absolutely lovely lots of smiley photos of him that I saw it kind of opened my heart to thinking about my children and yeah it was I was sort of dreading it, of course, who wants to go to a funeral, especially for someone who's only in their late 20s, but I actually found a slight privilege in being able to go to a church, sit right at the back. I was on my own when I went.

I could see my friend at the front, but I was sat at the back. And I just kind of let myself sink into the emotion of it and let that feeling out a bit. And I actually found it quite cathartic and pretty, yeah, fairly precious. Because there's always such a rush in life, isn't there? You don't get many things where you just get to sink into one emotion And pretty, yeah, fairly precious. Because there's always such a rush in life, isn't there? You don't get many things where you just get to sink into one emotion for a proper amount of time. And grief always surfaces, like your own grief, your own relationship with people you've lost,

how you feel about loved ones that you don't want to lose, all of that kind of stuff. So that was this week as well. And on a much lighter note, tonight I'm going to see a feeling play at Coco. So that'll be fun. And tomorrow night I'm singing at Pasha in Ibiza. I'm laughing because it's quite an incongruous end to the week, I would say.

So it's Flower Power at Pasha. I'm doing the opening night. I think it'll be such good fun when I'm there but at the moment little old me just keeps thinking I'm on stage at two in the morning and also because Richard's away I've kind of done like late flight out early flight home so I'm away for less than 24 hours but that also means I'm not allowed to sleep I'm gonna miss to miss my sleep. I love my sleep. Anyway, today's guest is, she's such a talented woman, Rachel Jackson, doula extraordinaire, and I am a massive fan of what she does. I have bought her wares as gifts I have bought her wares as gifts for pretty much every female relative and friend I can think of, actually.

I really, really love what she does. They're so beautiful. They're really lovely. The quality of her jewellery is great. Everything's really nice. I love her taste and where everything's coming from. But also, it's at a sort of price point where you can do it as something that's special but not, like, embarrassing. Do you know what I mean? It's not like you're spending

money on someone where you're thinking, I've kind of gone a bit overboard here or anyone's going to feel awkward about it. So it's just going to be like a really nice, a really special birthday present or a thinking of you present, Christmas, and you know it's going to last and they'll love it. Sorry, I probably shouldn't have been speaking to you while I'm walking along a really busy road but

I thought I'd make use of the way home from school and anyway it's nice having you keeping me company so Rachel's story was really fascinating and I didn't know too much about the details before we met we'd kept in touch I'd I'd worked with Rachel on a necklace, actually, years ago for a charity called Mothers to Mothers. And we did a really beautiful Phoenix necklace for charity. And Rachel does lots of charities, sorry, lots of jewellery for charities, actually. But that was a nice bit of serendipity because I was already a fan of what she did before that.

So I've sort of got to know her little by little over the years, but obviously it's always special when you get to sit down with someone and really reveal the full story. And it is a brilliant story, and I hope inspiring that, you know, you know how I feel about small business owners and entrepreneurs. I'm just such a, I love hearing the stories, and I find it really inspiring myself. The idea that you can

just have an idea and just flesh it out into something that becomes real and I do appreciate all the hard work that goes on behind the scenes and I like being nosy about it. Anyway, I will leave you with Rachel and I I'll speak to you in a bit and I'm crossing the road and I'll try not

to get run over. Bye. So this is literally your first ever podcast. Yes. Tiny party pop-up. Your laugh is brilliant. I think it's getting more cackly the older I get. Oh, I think the more cackly the better. I think it was always a bit cackly,

but I feel like the older I'm getting, the more it's like, ha, ha, it's a huge laugh. It's quite infectious. I can't help it. And I find a lot of things funny, not least myself. It's kind of handy, I guess. If you have to find something funny, it might as well be yourself because you're with yourself a lot.

But sometimes I'll... Like, Richard's always making fun of me because if I ever listen back or watch back, like a, I don't know, a TV interview I've done or something, and I make a joke, I'll laugh exactly the same as you. That you did on the show. Yeah.

Like, oh, good one. Terrible. Anyway, love about me. How are you? It's so nice to see you. Nice to see you too. And I just want to start with a really superficial thing, but when you're out and about

and you get complimented on your jewellery, how nice does it feel when you know you made it? Because obviously not everybody would know you are the creator of what you wear. It's a really amazing moment, actually. I do see a few people on the tube wearing the jewellery. And I sort of half want to, you know, it's a moment of sheer excitement. It's a moment of, you know, half wanting to go up and say something.

And then I kind of have to pull myself back and think, no. Let them have their space. I mean, that's... Yeah, exactly. But how long have you been making jewellery now? So I've been making jewellery now for, so it was 2009 is when I started it. So it has actually been, you know, yeah, a reasonably long journey. Yeah.

And within that time, you've had your two children. I have. Ten and six. Yes, Herbie's six and River is 10. Lovely. And it must be, I'm always really interested to speak to like people who've built up a business,

but you've really been there, sort of right, you've been at every level of growing. Yes. I mean, it feels weird to talk about yourself in third person, but what Rachel Jackson, the jewellery brand is.

Yes. Right from selling it on a market store. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's not where I started my career. I started my career in radio and TV. What were you doing there?

Behind the scenes. So I was in radio up north, post-university. I was working on their advertising team. And then I was really, I think, pining for London, actually, post-university. A lot of my friends had gone down there, and I was exploring what jobs might suit me down there. And I moved to, within the company, the company was called EMAP, and I moved to box television um on oxford street

um so you know a girl from a small town from leyland working class town in lancashire to the big smoke um it was quite a big move um but yeah i moved uh i moved down to tv and i was part of a really small um team quite a bespoke team. We worked with record labels and we came up with creative ideas to promote their acts on our channels. So the Box TV was part of this bigger portfolio of TV channels. There was Kerrang! TV, there was QTV, Smash Hits, to name a few. And yeah, whether it was,

there were long form interviews that went on the channel, whether it was behind the scenes, on tour with, or an interview in a cute place. That's what I helped come up with and worked with the record labels to get it on the channels. So at that point, was your interest in just going with the flow of where this job was taking you, or had you come to it from a love of radio or a love of music?

Why was that somewhere you'd started? Yeah, good question. I mean, my background, my journey to being a duo designer is actually quite an interesting one, because when I was at school, there wasn't really anything in terms of the arts where I grew up. There was a cooking class where you would learn how to make rock cakes. I did rock cakes.

Bread and butter pudding. Yeah. Did you have that too? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and there was graphic design, but it was very, it was very, it was all boys. For what a reason that didn't appeal. And there was a drawing class, but it was quite sort of disjointed. So I was, it was never something that was in front of me from an early age.

So it came very much later on. I was very into sport and I was always into music. So yeah, I took a few twists and turns I ended up in music yeah absolutely always loved music and then I spent a good 10 years there actually I had an amazing time in London and um and then I decided to take a career break it had been my first proper job post-university and I decided to take a career break. It had been my first proper job post-university. And I decided to travel the world. And I decided to go solo.

And on that trip, that's where I really discovered my passion for jewellery. And that's where the seeds of this newfound career for me were born. As I was going from country to country, I was like a magpie, just collecting all these amazing pieces of jewellery. South America was a very special place for me. Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia, Peru. Very bold, very bright, very colourful.

And I was collecting these pieces as memories, moments of people, of places. And of course, when you're backpacking, you've only got the clothes on your back to, you know, when you're trying to meet new friends, it's a little bit limiting to show a bit of personality. And so I'd also use the jewellery to, you know, when you're trying to meet new friends, it's a little bit limiting to show a bit of personality. And so I'd also use the jewellery to, you know, dress myself up and as a bit of a conversation starter.

It was quite useful. Oh, that's really beautiful. Where did you get that from? Et cetera, et cetera. So I was collecting the jewellery and, you know, some people's memories are triggered by smell or music that kind of thing and I have discovered that mine is triggered by jewelry I have this amazing jewelry collection at home which not only documents my trip but you know now my entire life from you

know giving birth to Herbie to River to all the other things that that um I've done. When I was there, I was incredibly lucky to become close to Brazilian family, in particular, a guy called Ali. And we met at Carnival in Salvador. And it was towards the end of my trip. And I was with a traveling friend, Luisa. And Ali and his brother invited us to stay at their family home now it might sound a little bit weird that people we didn't know we went to go and stay with them but

it was very normal in Brazil they're very patriotic they want to show you their country they're very proud of it and everybody lives with their parents before they get married so we went to stay with them in Sao Paulo uh the boys and her mum his mum and um luckily for me she she had a house not dissimilar to yours actually it was just like a treasure trove you know it's a family that was well traveled lots of history really beautiful um things and she also had a passion for jewelry and we would sit there for hours making jewelry together she basically taught me the basic skills of jewelry making she it wasn't her career she she uh actually was a lawyer um she was retired this is the lady with the amazing name this is the lady with the amazing name yeah she was called cinderella which is incredible I mean how evocative as a person to

meet yeah and she was evocative in her personality and her looks as well she had this big afro hair and she had the boob job and you know she was in her sort of 70s early 70s I would say she was just sassy and cool and yeah I think you know I had a bit of a girl crush clearly on her. And we would just sit for hours and she would help me make. And yeah, I ended up staying there for three months. And the guys were like, you've got real talent here. You know, you should really think about doing this when you get back. And I had left the UK to travel with the intention of broadening my horizons and trying to figure out what my next step was in life. But I think you have to remove yourself sometimes, don't you,

to experience different things because if you can't see it, you can't be it. Like I said, I'd never been exposed to the to the arts in any shape or form before it was you know quite new the concept of making something at the end of the trip Ali gifted me an amulet pendant with salt inside now I'd never heard of the concept of an amulet before but it's very common in South America and other countries too. And it had a note with it. It was a Brazilian flag actually that he wrote on, which I still have.

And it said, for love and protection wherever you go, which was so, I was so touched. It was such a beautiful necklace and note. And I thought, wow, you know, everyone should have an amulet. And why isn't anyone doing that in the UK? You know, there's lots of cool jewellery brands, but what about putting some meaning behind it? And it was filled with salt.

And in salt, they use that to ward off evil spirits. They're quite spiritual. So I was quite taken aback by that too. So then I went back to the UK. And six months after I got back, sorry, six weeks actually, six weeks after I got back sorry six weeks actually six weeks after I got back I got a call and tragically Ali had died in a plane accident yeah yeah that's really shocking which was very sad time and he was 28 and you know it was obviously a sad time but also very poignant because things like that make you realize that life is really fleeting yeah and you should you know

treasure every day now him and his family were so amazing at that. They were this very positive family who were very curious and they did everything. He lived a full life, actually. And I thought, well, I want to make something positive out of this. And his motto was, you should do what you love. So I was like, okay, so it's now or never I'm going to retrain and I'm going to set up a market stall and I'm going to learn how to be a jewelry designer wow that's an amazing the whole of that is so amazing I'm so sorry you lost your friend

and I was thinking like sort of so many layers to that experience because you took yourself out of where you were to get this perspective to be a you know traveling initially on your own wandering around all these countries all these sights sounds experiences but also finding this this creativity that this woman's doing just from her table and it's not even her job it's just the thing that's bringing her happiness to create something that wasn't there in the morning go back to it you know keep nurturing yeah this thing that she was growing yeah but then the person who kind of invited you into his home and brought that vision to you yeah then tragically dies before

even it hits 30 and you've suddenly got this thing of like, it almost like made all the messaging of what you'd experienced would turn into like capital letters of like, that's life. That's there. It's happening all the time. Sees it while it's available, like take the opportunity. But, you know, hardly anybody has an experience that that's quite so uh i don't know like it's so intense in its messaging like that do you know what i mean like that's such a pivotal moment and

i suppose it's also interesting that you said you grew up not really being exposed to the arts not really being encouraged to think of that as something you might do no no no real sort of role models around either i just i just wouldn't have thought of it and when you so you say orc out market stall what what the people around you thinking about that so the job I was in at emap was really well paid you know for my age I think I was on 70k which was enormous and um yeah I went from that to earning some weeks 100 quid a week but I was a woman on a mission I was like this is what I want to do I mean I would spend hours you know day night just making and I think when you are lucky enough to find something like that

you're able to lose yourself in it it's quite special yeah and yeah I would you know I was at that age where and I loved to party so I was burning the candle at both ends so I'd have some brilliant you know I'd be especially on a hundred pounds a week two drinks I um you know I'd every Sunday morning I'd be there on a hangover without a shadow of a doubt. And I'm just so grateful for my friends who would come and bring me coffee and maybe, you know, man the stand while I'd take a walk.

But yeah, it was quite crazy when I look back. But it's where I cut my teeth. It was the best experience ever. You know, when I first started designing, it was big and bold and very Brazilian and no one bought it. And, you know, I had to learn, I was learning my aesthetic

and I was learning what the British public wanted to buy. I bet people were really honest with you. Much more conservative. Yeah, but also when people are picking things up at a market stall, they might turn to their friend and say, oh, no, I wouldn't wear that. Yeah, you hear it all. You're probably hearing the research you're picking up daily.

Daily. Because people as well, they wouldn't think twice about probably saying, being quite honest, like, oh, no, that's too much for me. Or you're just basically like getting that interaction with potential customers all the time. Yeah, yeah, it was brilliant for that. It really helped shape, you know, what I was doing. And I learned about what was commercial and what wasn't.

And, you know, usually the thing that I would spend weeks designing and making sadly was not the piece that people would buy. But you have to have a combination and that, you know, stands true. And how long was it taking you to make things? I don't know anything about jewellery making. So if you're making stuff for your stand, what's the... Yeah, I mean, back then I was beading mainly. So it's lots of beading.

So it could be anything from 20 minutes for a bracelet, a beaded bracelet, to, you know, an hour for a bigger piece. And this is what you were doing Monday to Friday to sort of get ready? Or were you still trying to work with other jobs to get to the weekend? I did go back part-time to EMAP to get some extra pocket money. But it came to a point where I had to take a leap of faith yeah um because it was difficult to do both because what I did was I started building a little collection I got my suitcase and I started going into shops and saying you know would you be interested in buying my

yeah I'm gonna stock some of my things yeah exactly and and that but that's you know where I learned everything from pricing to display so yeah because I guess there's lots of strands to growing a business because you say the things you were doing initially inspired by this very personal experience you'd have and then you put it out on the stall and people are like yeah it's a bit much for me. So to be able to sort of, I suppose that's quite a good bit of a good tip for people building a business. Is that you've got to have your drive and your vision. But you've also got to be able to keep your ego in a place where you're able to actually respond to feedback. Oh, 100%.

Rather than just being like, well, no, this is what I love. So if you don't like it, you're wrong. Yeah. No, definitely the secret to my success has been always welcoming feedback even to this day um so yeah I would you know I had no experience and I was coming at it later in life and I had no money because I'd just blown it all on a on a year abroad exactly travel and yeah and um I would you know the stores that I'd visit I'd get their feedback take it on board go back try again it was at a time the market in Spitalfields where I was where it was a hub of creativity and it was a place where buyers used to come as well you could

get picked up there perhaps it's still the same now I'm not sure I do actually know the area talking about because I used to go there then it was so exciting yes so many amazing people lots of exceptional craftsmanship but like there in front of you and yeah different levels of goods and make really interesting people really interesting people and I think some of the you know most creative and some some big uh names and brands have have come out of there but you yeah you would never have known perhaps at the time but yeah um so there was feedback from buyers there too and and actually after a while when people started to buy it i i was um lucky enough to get picked up by liberty and i did a capsule for them and warehouse as well pretty much the most beautiful shop in england i think

it's just so gorgeous isn't it totally agree and was this what under so when you were in the market store that was under the name of cinderella was it that yes cinderella b cinderella b so i named it um after her because it was emotional yeah um and i wanted to do something for her and for Ali's legacy. So I got the business to a certain point under that name. In Liberty, was it under that name? It was under that name, yeah, for a while. And then it got to a point where, you know, it was blood, sweat and tears doing what I was doing on a shoestring. Blood, sweat and tears doing what I was doing on a shoestring.

And I was against the odds. The name was difficult to trade because it's got connotations with Disney. Yes. And the jury was nothing like Disney. It was an aspiration. I couldn't trademark it. And so it was only ever going to go so far um so when did it become under your own name so that was only eight years ago i think there was a moment i remember i think it was christmas day um eight years ago i was like i

just i just wanted to throw the towel in I was like I can't work this hard and because I'd come to this later in life you know I had uh I was older than you know some people might be setting up a business um every avenue I was trying I kind of got it to where I'd got it and I was tired I it. And I was tired. I was exhausted. And for very little money. I was like, what am I going to do? And fortunately for me, I've always had amazing friends around me. And we talked.

And some brilliant mentors in my life as well. And we decided that I needed to rebrand. I needed to go again. I needed to give it another 12 months. I didn want to give up obviously on this dream I think once you've found what you want to do there's just absolutely no turning back so I got together a mini board of people Natalie Campbell who's an old friend of mine She set up a business same time as me. She ran for mayor yesterday, the London mayor. So proud of her.

And a couple of other good friends who, you know, were good business people. We changed the name. I changed the supplier. I was having all sorts of problems producing in the UK. That was another thing of mine I really wanted to produce in the UK. And I did in the jewellery quarter in Birmingham for some time but very sadly it's kind of not what it used to be there you used to get loads and loads of people wanting to work in the industry training in the local colleges and universities and the

flow of people just wasn't coming through I wasn't getting the quality and it was difficult to scale so I had to find I knew that in India in Jaur, that's where they have amazing artisans, where they are brilliant at making jewellery. But I had no idea how to find the right workplace there for me. But I did. find someone that could help me with that and created yeah a brand new look and feel brand new range everything just started from scratch and I'm so glad I did because I launched it at a trade show in London and I paid for a stand that was so much bigger than what I could afford but I wanted to really go for it. And I knew I was sort of on a limited amount of time.

And by the end of the show, the order book was bigger than I ever could have dreamt of. Wow. So I would say that Cinderella Bee was a journey for me. It was a failed business to a certain degree, but without that failure. Yeah. And learning from everything yeah on that journey I wouldn't be where I am now yeah so it's something I'm incredibly proud of I'm so glad that I but I'm so glad I made the change yeah it sounded like you were like ready to step into the next bit after that all of that learning but I'm working on the chronology so you must have had your baby your first baby in amongst that bit where you're working really hard feeling like it's taking a lot of energy to always be

pushing the boulder yeah and you get that feeling of, am I always going to have to work at this level just to achieve where I'm at? Exactly. It's really hard to keep motivated sometimes because you have to be your own cheerleader so much. So what was happening when you had your baby and did it make you at all worried about how it would affect this project that's clearly connected to something so deep in you that you wanted to do um I think you go into I certainly went into pregnancy and my first child really not having a clue and so I just rolled with it I struggled with pregnancy you know I was one of these people that would be running around all the time and yeah I was work obsessed definitely and I think when your business is in the early stages you you think that the rug's going to be pulled from beneath you all the time.

You know, in fact, it's probably only recently where I've kind of got a bit more peace with that. So, you know, there was a lot going on. And when I had River, it was kind of joyous to have some time off, actually, permission, because, you you know you really can't move especially if you're breastfeeding um but the brain is always ticking isn't it and you know in some ways I was perhaps my most creative because the sleepless nights the the feeding you you can't use your hands a lot of the time, so you're just thinking. So I think on the one hand, you know, I was able to carry on what I was doing and enjoy River.

On the other hand, I can't remember how many people I had working for me then. It was very, very small though. So it wasn't self-sufficient at all. And it was kind of necessary to go back quite early. I think what made it all possible for me is that I have an amazing husband who at that time was able to help. He's had a journey himself in terms of career, but he was available. So I was juggling both at the same time. And I look back and I think think could you have taken more time in all honesty I don't think I'm a baby person though I think I really really enjoy motherhood now yeah um as I said Herbie's

six and River's ten and they're coming to an age where I think they really need me yeah um both of them very different characters both need me in different ways, and I just love it. I love it so much, but I don't think I would have said that in the early years, perhaps because of where I was. It was all quite overwhelming. I think it's quite good to articulate that because with me having a few kids,

people have sometimes said to me, oh, you must love babies. And I'm like, well, I know they start out that way, but that's not actually, like, for me, it's not about, like, that's not why I had more. Like, oh, I need another baby. I just wanted another person. And I think I'm a better mum when they get older

than when they're really... The first bit's really fun when you've got a brand new baby. And there's a bit when they sort of between, I don't know, probably about 12 months and about like them turning three or two and a half three where I feel like a lot of the day's kind of a bit long and I don't necessarily want to sit down and play blocks and I'm a bit like impatient almost yeah and you can't get anything done and you can't hold a conversation and you know what I mean yeah that bit when you're in that real busy busy busy yeah and you can't just you know they want to know what's beyond

the door and they want to know like open cupboards and pull drawers out and that kind of thing so I think it's quite nice to hear people talk about the different chapters of motherhood and actually when you can feel like oh I actually love this bit yeah or I feel like I'm a good mum in this section better than maybe that better than then I didn't cope very well um I definitely went through a period of postnatal depression and yeah for anyone that that that goes through that it's not a nice place to be no very isolating I would imagine yeah very isolated and I felt you know it's difficult going back to work and I think probably two different things here I think going back to work is another challenge isn't it for women because it takes you a while

to get your mojo back like I was really struggling to string sentences together I remember going to meetings and just coming out feeling absolutely mortified because I didn't feel like I could I could talk you know I just thought I was awful and I would beat myself up about it and that that that went on for some time um probably a year it sounds like you I don't know if your confidence quite a lot like the bit inside of you that had that thing that drive of like getting out there every Sunday hung over don't care here i am yeah sucking up the information that's right but then you kind of maybe got to a bit where you're like okay i did all of that yeah and now i kind of haven't quite got to where yeah i needed to be and yeah you're

still trying to convince people about what you're doing and yeah so the the actual boldness of taking what you were doing and all the experience and then putting it under your own name and being like okay now let's let's go that's actually really significant i think and really amazing like i completely applaud that because that might have been actually one of those moments where it might be like i've taken it to this point yeah it's just going to be my passion project but to actually go like no i'm digging my heels in and let's totally flip over yeah book yeah it's actually really impressive yeah massively impressed especially under your own name i mean that's and i'm 47 so that was 41 sorry uh i would

have been 39 um and you know i think it it does go to show that if you are willing to, if you found a passion, I would say you've got to feel passionate about something or I perhaps wouldn't recommend it. Yeah, I think you'll just stop, actually, if you're not passionate about it. It's like, okay. Nah, it's easier things to do. You know, you're willing to work hard enough, then you can change you can pivot

or even change at any point um but that's reassuring as well for people with maybe if they're growing their own small business to hear about all the grit and all the time that has to go into it you know now you can sit here now looking back over the stretch of it and go oh it's actually been a path that's taken me to here but yeah I think for some people they don't know what goes on behind the scenes so when they start out they're just looking at what's already established already working and you probably always imagine it's been quite easy for other people I know but I think and I think most successful business people have a story of failure and a journey, and that's taken a long time, more often than not.

I think it's a marathon rather than a sprint. Yeah. And I suppose as well, when you have your baby and you're thinking about, because you were saying about how jewellery has always been your way of marking, that's what brings memories, that's what is your keepsakes so then you're thinking about you know your child's relationship with because it's funny with jewellery it's such a brilliant conversation to have with people about what they wear and the story behind it yeah and there's often a story

behind things yeah it might not be everything so it might be like like one of my rings I bought it's really inexpensive and I bought it when I was away for a weekend with my mum earlier this year but other things would be like oh that used to belong to someone or yeah you know that was given to me when you know there's other stories that go on with stuff and what what was your if you've got memories of like your mum's jewellery that from when you were little or the things she wears that tell stories? I don't have that story from my mum. She didn't wear jewellery. Mum was a

nurse so perhaps because you're not allowed to wear any jewellery. Of course, yeah. She worked in the NHS so I don't have, and again that's why I guess I was sort of late to the party. Does she have some of your jewellery now? She has loads of my jewellery now. There you go.

You've adored her now. Yeah, exactly. She loves it. Yeah, I bet. Well, I think it is something that's got resonance. And even if you don't wear things all the time, like, I mean, my jewellery collection is not as impressive as yours, but I have got, like, a drawer upstairs with,

I've even got things I had when I was a teenager. Oh, that's so cool. Things I saved up for. Do you remember those rings that used to have glitter inside and love hearts? Yeah. Do you remember those? I've got a couple of them. I want to see them all.

I want to see these. Spring, summer 25. Should I just bring it back? Yeah. But I do think I mean you know I've been keeping it on the down low and so far into the conversation

but I'm a massive fan of what you do I think your jewellery I mean I wear your necklaces all the time when we see

when we see you wearing the jewellery on TV or wherever you are the whole team is just on text but also you'll know that you'll see my orders

come in we love it yeah we do yeah a little happy dance you are the whole team is just on text but also you'll know that like you'll see my orders come in we love it yeah we do yeah a little happy dance oh that's so good yeah but I think what's unique about where you've sort of positioned what you've got is it's it's it's special enough but it's also something that people can treat themselves to but it's really looks beautiful and gets complimented yeah i don't know if there's really much out there that's in the same bracket but the other thing you do that's clever i was thinking maybe it's slightly because of the job you had when you were working in the the box channel and working at how to work you know music into what that could offer

yeah your jewelry's often got collaborations with charities, and so there's storytelling in that. That's right. And you're wearing a Choose Love T-shirt today, which I know you've done lots for. But I didn't realise it had a personal connection as well with refugees. Yeah, it does. I mean, all our jewellery is designed to look good, but to offer some further meaning um

the choose love collaboration came about because i was helping dawn o'porter um with some research for her book she needed to um meet a jewelry designer that had pitched to selfridges before for her book cat lady because that was one of the main characters. I didn't know that Dawn was a founder of Choose Love and we'd created a necklace for Choose Love. We were intending to put it in front of them to see if they wanted us to help raise money. Was that serendipitous? You already had the idea and then...

Yeah, so I showed her this necklace and it was a rainbow love necklace. And she said, oh my God, it's amazing and put me straight in touch with the team there so yeah and and and we managed to raise i mean it sold out in a week it was incredible we raised 40 grand in because 100 of the profits of what uh you know we make from the sales of the necklace go to choose love it's an ongoing partnership now um it was just bonkers and uh in answer to your question where that so obviously the the conversation with choose love came from dawn but i'd always been in huge admiration for choose love because my mum's a refugee so my mum's a refugee uh of my mum's a refugee of the Second World War.

She's German. Not a lot of people would realise, but often people are a refugee of their own war, as it were. And she came from a place, a small town called Fensberg, in the north of Germany on the border to Denmark. And it was bombed so heavily, completely destroyed, that her and her family had to move south. Now, again, I certainly didn't realise this, but within a country, certainly where she moved,

which was to the countryside, not everyone was aware of what was going on elsewhere. the countryside not everyone was aware of what was going on elsewhere um and there wasn't much empathy for these kind of intruders who were the fellow countrymen coming down into their community she was born out of wedlock as well because her dad um had gone to war and it was a highly catholic place so you know they weren't hugely welcome. She lived in a cow shed. She worked in a field. It's quite a sad story. She really struggled to make friends her entire childhood. And so when she was old enough, she decided to move to the UK. I think the Beatles were a big thing at that time. A big reason for it too. And she came over and she worked as an au pair in England and um and

eventually um started to work for the NHS and she worked for the NHS her entire life I love my mum she's a very quiet human um and um but she you know has helped a lot of people. And it's helped me understand the kind of plight of refugees, displaced people, whether that's from a war or from a natural disaster. It's just something I feel very passionate about. And the Choose Love message is so simple, isn't it, at the end of the day, and something everybody can get behind of.

And I just think the world is in such a difficult place that it's important that everyone does their bit. And, you know, jewellery is a really easy way for people to do that. If you don't have any time, you could buy a piece of jewellery or a T-shirt like the one I'm wearing. They're cool, co-designed by Catherine Hamner. And I think they've just nailed it, haven't they? Choose love and make it easy for people to to help if they want to I completely agree and I also think it's lovely to hear the

story about your mum and why it makes such sense to you because I think and I know that this is very much where choose love is coming from as well that so much of things when they get reported in the press have been an attempt to sort of dehumanise the individuals that this is happening to and it's so important to recognise all those people all their stories everyone has a story yeah absolutely and um you know for your mum to have come come to the UK and then ended up working in the very thing that people think of as such a you know the part of the you know very fabric of the uk something where we you know we all care about the nhs and then there she is part of that it's amazing isn't it like what an

incredible thing yeah um and i suppose you know again maybe feeds into the thing of as well like about taking the opportunities that are in front of you and um yeah that probably will have fed in somewhere into like a bit of your grit i think resilience i think i think so and have you got are you part of a big family have you got um i have a brother who is uh he'll be 50 um this year and i have a sister who is 10 years younger than me called Claire. She still lives up north with my mum. Cool. And is anyone else in your family creative?

Or are you the only one? Yeah. I mean, it literally is. Where I'm from, it's like they're famous for making trucks, Leyland trucks. And it's just, no, I didn't know anyone creative.

Nobody was creative. So I remember at school, my creative thread was definitely always there it just wasn't tapped into yeah and and something sort of for the future I'd love to change um in terms of providing a space you know we're really gunning for a flagship store this year but providing a space but where people can just come and have a go that's brilliant you know because that's what happened to me. Yeah.

It wasn't until I'd actually had a go that I realised this was something inside me that, you know, made me really happy. Yeah. And with your kids, now they're growing up in creative households. Yes. It's very different. Uber creative, Andy, my husband's super creative. And I think, you know, for for me it's really important to expose

them to as much as possible whether that's arts or sport or music or academic it's that's one of the things I set out to do so that they have the opportunity to understand if they love something or not. Yeah, absolutely. No, I think it's, as you say, like, I always think of it like trying to, like, put in lots of seeds and then you sort of just water them or wherever the little shoots are coming up. But you don't really know where it will lead. Maybe some of it's just for them just to have fun with in their own spare time. But it's just like about, like, exposure. Yeah, yeah yeah exactly thing so when you

came to have your second baby and your own you know self-branded jewelry is starting to get somewhere were you at all worried that time around about about taking a foot off the gas a bit with herbie um it was going full pelt the business. So my husband and I had to have a chat. It was like, okay, how are we actually going to manage a second child? And we decided together that he would take a year off work to do the lion's share of the childcare. So that made things a lot easier. So that made things a lot easier.

Did I feel like I, you know, missed out? I think, yeah, I do. I look back and I question that. But as I said, I think, you know, if I didn't put the work in at that point, I wouldn't be where I am now, which is really happy, really fulfilled in what I do. And kids see that you know and we do um creative things together and you know I think they like what their mummy does yeah and also I think you have to trust yourself that you were the same person then that you are now and so far as you were doing what felt like the right

thing for yourself at the time yeah and you can't really talk someone into the other stuff sometimes if that's what they want to be doing and also you know I've always been there for the most part beginning of the day end of the day you know I have my time with them and I just make sure that it's really good quality time yeah you know are you good at switch at having because obviously if you're doing something that's completely built by yourself are you good at switching off and bookending your I'd be lying if I definitely wasn't like in the early years but I am now you know I've got better and better and I think it is um a game of just um improving isn't it as you go along so there's no laptops at the weekend you know I make sure that I help get them ready in the morning and we um we always have our time in the evening

we do activities at the weekend I have stuff planned I'm really good at planning all of that that's kind of my role can you plan my weekend I've got nothing planned for the whole no problem I could really do with that they were like what we're doing this week and I'm like I actually just don't know I'll find something hopefully and do you how many people do you employ now by the way how big is your company 20 20 yeah that's amazing yeah and do you how good are you as well at delegating if you've built something from like yeah that's been a process so you go can you do this for me and And then you go, oh, I don't like that. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I've definitely got better. And I think you have to.

You literally just can't do everything. Like, you won't get to where you want to be. And it's really important to me that we're a female-led team. Like, I've had the privilege of working with some amazing women, past, present, and I know I will in the future. And what makes the Rachel Jackson team special is that, number one, everyone is super passionate about jewellery. You know, we understand what our customer wants to wear.

We're really into the detail, you know, and the provenance, where it's come from. We care about how it looks, how it feels, how it moves, the meaning behind it's come from. We care about how it looks, how it feels, how it moves, the meaning behind it, the storytelling. Everyone has a voice. Everyone is part of the conversation. And it's not my brand.

It's our brand is how I like to think of it. And, you know, I did, I was with everyone yesterday and I had a quick chat with everyone just to check that my, without saying anything to them I said what do you think makes the brand special and they said that it's because we feel a part of this journey which I just thought was magic and I felt brilliant and that's exactly you know Howard no it's perfect because also it means everybody feels um that they are in it with you. Yes. And from everything you've been talking about, obviously the drive of where you've got to has to come from you.

But it's always about also having that support, the people around you that can actually lift you up. And keep you so you can give it that time and that passion. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you can have a vision and you can have that laser focus, but it takes an army of people, right, to get you there. And I'm so grateful for all of the people that have helped me get there. You know, from my team, my immediate team to, as I said, I've had these amazing mentors that have helped me. To the brilliant people like you who wear the jewellery, you've supported us from the start.

So, yeah. Oh, no, it's lovely. I'm picturing you, like, at this point, going back to, like, you on the market stall on one Sunday morning, just being like, hang in there. You met me, actually, in that graft period. Well, I remember I met you, it was like, I did something for Grazia Live, I think it was,

or one of those. Was it Grazia Live? Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was an East London design show yes well no it was like they had all the stalls but it was part of like

I think it was like a Grazia Live event for the weekend right and I was invited to do some talking and I'd gone on my own and it was like

in Islington the Islington design place and I sort of potted around all these stalls and I was like ooh yeah and you chose

so the amulet is what you picked and you put your children's birthstones in there yeah and then I got one for like my mum my sister did you my granny they're lovely they're really special um they're really beautiful pieces and they're all things I think you know I I can keep and you know for many, many years to come, which is lovely. That's our most meaningful piece, obviously, with how the story began.

That was the original piece that I was gifted and now it's our bestseller. Is it? Yeah, well, I suppose it's the one you can, yeah, as you say, you put your own meaning into it straight away. Yeah. And have you got lots of plans for the future or are you someone that's kind of feeling where you're at at the moment?

Of course I've got plans. I knew the answer, really. Yeah, so sort of immediately we've got a new collaboration coming up with Choose Love. I think I'm okay to reveal who it's with it's with nicola colon this time the irish actress yeah um we've um we've come together and uh we're going to be releasing a new necklace for choose love um that's going to happen in june perfect um we are we've just launched our uh amulet bar it has a permanent home in Selfridges now,

which is exciting because that took a bit of a backseat through COVID. The Amulet Bar is somewhere where you can come and choose your pendant from small to medium to large. You can choose your stones to go in it, whether it's bare stones or meaningful stones. You can choose your chain and you can build your own kind of charm collection add charms to it as well now too so that's exciting a bigger picture

we um want to open a flagship store that is the dream i think that would bring us full circle i guess back to market store days where you know being able to talk to customers yeah but also I really I don't know about you but I think the high street is really missing um interesting stores concept stores destinations places where yeah you know you might want to buy something but actually it's just a really gorgeous experience there's nice art there's nice furniture there's nice books there's good music when you walk in it smells nice you've got staff that have got good chat yeah um and a place as I said you know in the future I'd love to be able to have dedicated days and times where people can come

and just um have a go at making or drawing or just reading or writing and whether it's mom with children or partners or friends um and and and move from one shop to a number of shots but we need to get some investment for that so that's the that's the next 12 to 18 months I would say perfect exciting times and a siren ever since you said about coming to Lancashire and going to the big smoke really trite sentence in my head of like coming to where the streets are paved with gold but then having to make it yourself that's so true I remember the opening line of your autobiography if you like I remember with River um I was breastfeeding in my lounge and I was living in Stoke Newington at the time and

every 15 minutes a big double-decker bus would go past when I was there with my breasts out breastfeeding and the people on the top deck I was like oh do you know what yeah I always feel like that if I ever yeah and if I'm ever somewhere where, like, I don't know, unless I'm in a hotel room and I think, oh, it's short, I've got the curtains open, I get changed, and I'm like, ah, the curtains. I was like, you know what, if someone's watching for that long, like, well done. Love that. I'm not sure it's like a great attitude.

I was like, well, well done. You've spent hours waiting for something to happen oh thank you so much what a delight I could talk to you more about jewelry but oh thank you find my funny um love heart ring for you thank you so much for having me I hope your first podcast experience wasn't too traumatic. Not at all. I loved it. Perfect. That is an inspiring story, isn't it? Imagine that, going to Brazil and sitting at a table with a woman called Cinderella, making jewellery.

I have such a strong image in my head of how that looks. Also, three cheers to Rachel for establishing her brand and taking the leap and being so bloody brilliant at it. I say this as someone who's currently wearing one of her necklaces around my neck right now. I realise I forgot to tell you something that I've basically been telling everybody. I realise I forgot to tell you something that I've basically been telling everybody, just because I like to think of myself as... Basically, I get very excited if I make people laugh. And earlier this week, I told a joke and it actually got a round of applause. I've just been reliving that moment in my head ever since. So on Tuesday morning, I was invited by a friend of mine called Eleanor Siegel to come and talk at Apple Music.

Now, I haven't been to Battersea Power Station since it's been all fancy and nice. But let me tell you, the Apple headquarters at Battersea are absolutely beautiful. The Apple headquarters at Battersea are absolutely beautiful. She invited me there to do, well, she said, can you come and host what's called a creative breakfast? And of course, I pictured myself just sitting at a table eating lots of breakfast. But actually, it meant being interviewed in front of Apple employees at breakfast time. So I turn up in these very beautiful Battersea Power Station offices.

It's all kind of warm red brick, warm red toned wood, full-sized trees, guys, that they had grown in like, I don't know, Sicily, I think she said, and then flown over. Of course they did. It's very beautiful. Anyway, so, you know sitting it was a little bit intimidating I don't think you ever get used to to having being interviewed in front of like over 100 people who are right there especially when you come straight from school drop and you're feeling a bit like I haven't looked in a mirror for ages anyway that's beside the point you want to know what the joke was don't you so I got given a cup of tea in an apple mug. And after I was finishing up my chat, I said, thank you for my cup of tea in this apple mug.

I love the fact it's an apple mug. I just hope you don't bring out a new mug in six months that's better than this one, because then everybody will be like, oh, you've got the old apple mug. I got a round of applause. Actually, I think I told it better on Tuesday. Damn it. It's always the way, isn't it?

But anyway, it gave me such a warm glow to make people laugh and get a round of applause that I'm the sort of person that has to try and retell that in the hope that I'll get like an addict, getting crumbs from, yeah, the thing that gave them the high. That's me retelling the joke anyway whatever you're up to have a lovely time please think of me and my sleep deprived weekend with my little little bit of singing and ibiza still makes me laugh especially it's

so incongruous with what i'm doing right now. I like walking back through the streets of London town. And I will see you next week. And thank you to Rachel for talking to me and being so brilliant and inspiring and eloquent. Thank you to Claire Jones for producing the podcast. Thank you to Richard for editing the podcast. Miss you, darling. And thank you to you for lending me your ears, of course. And I will see you again next week

with another stupendous guest. All right, all the best. Bye-bye. Thank you.