Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 131: Joanne Hardcastle

Episode Date: September 23, 2024

I first came to follow Joanne Hardcastle (@hardcastletowers) when she was a contestant on the fourth series of Interior Design Masters, which is one of my favourite TV shows. Joanne's husband Tim encouraged her to apply for the show and she says it was the first time she had ever put herself first, and she loves her new found 'me-time'.Joanne lost her mum at the age of 17 and had a strong urge to become a mum herself, and she has been open about having 6 miscarriages during her motherhood journey. She now has 3 grown up daughters, the youngest being her foster child. She spoke to me about the journey of building up trust with her foster daughter and how she has taught her children not to be frightened of conflict and to know that adults aren't always right.Like me, Joanne loves colour and vintage interior design, including collecting childhood treasures such as Sindy dolls. She has documented on Instagram, the intricate furnishing of an amazing dolls house which she claims not to play with... but she clearly does!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates Hi, this is probably Really unwise time to press record. I'm gonna give it a go

Because I found myself with a tiny bit of time when I can say hello to you. I'm gonna give it a go because I found myself with a tiny bit of time when I can say hello to you. I am just back in the UK. I haven't spoken to you in ages. How are you? How is everything? Do you have a good summer? Does that feel like ages ago? Yes, probably. Does for me too actually. I think the last episode of the podcast went out in... was it June? I didn't mean to get too actually. I think the last episode of the podcast went out in, was it June? I didn't mean to get so slapped. I normally like take one month off and then come back but one thing and another and I ended up being away on tour for the last of a while and it was just a bit tricky to get get it together in the way I wanted to do it. So yeah, here we are,

September, very much a back to school feeling but in that nice way when you're a grown up and you don't really have to go to school. So I am speaking to you from swimming. I'm watching my eight-year-old go up and down the lanes. He gets very annoyed if he doesn't think I've watched, although it's obviously also quite a good time to catch up on bits. So I'm watching Jess, I'm speaking to you, and I'm feeling a bit weird because I am just back from America. I, well, North America I should say, I actually flew home from Canada. I went over to America for, so basically since I've spoken to you last, I finished more recording, music stuff, did a lot of festivals,

went to Italy for 10 days with the kids and some of my family, which was lovely, came back, loved more festivals, my sister got married, which was gorgeous, and then I went to America. First for a week with my children, we did a whole family, so all seven of us went to New York for a week, which was basically my way, well mine and

Richard's way of feeling good about the fact that we were then away for two weeks. Because I don't really love being away from the kids, I love what I do for a living, I struggle with being away from the kids, but involving them felt like a way to turn it around. So we did a week in New York, which is really fun, super touristy, super expensive. Sorry to add that in, it's just the truth though, New York bloody hell. But it felt like nice to do something a bit decadent and a way to involve them in some of the adventures I've been having this year. So we really went for it and did loads of stuff and then the kids flew home and Richard and I flew on to Chicago to start a tour.

Where we played Chicago, Denver, Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Vancouver and then a festival in a place called Victoria which is on Vancouver Island. Victoria was one of my favorite places actually, really liked it. So pretty. And we flew back, we landed yesterday and today I'm feeling a bit weird. I've kind of tried my best to not give into any of the urges to sleep during the daytime but yeah definitely feel a bit odd. So now yeah it's pretty busy in here, sorry it's a bit noisy. But I'm back, got a lovely new series of lovely amazing guests. I'm booking some new ones that we speak as well.

Feeling pepped, feeling ready. So I spoke to Joanne back in June. I started following her when she did Interior Design Masters, which is a program I love. You might remember I spoke to the head judge, Michelle Aguindahim, a little while back for the previous series, but Joanne was one of the contestants and I really liked her style. She's a maximalist like me, lots of color, lots of vintage stuff, so really speaks my language, although her house does look quite a lot tidier. And one of her posts, she mentioned her daughters and how one of them was a foster daughter and I was immediately really

interested in how that works. And I thought Joanne sounds like a really lovely woman, so I was intrigued and started reading more. And some of her posts were very open and candid about her experiences with motherhood. Her six miscarriages before she had her baby. She's been through a lot. She's just got three grown-up daughters and her youngest daughter is a foster child. And yeah, Joanne was just absolutely brilliant at speaking about it.

And the fact that she has grown-up children meant that she was able to talk about that experience with more candor than if it was her children were still looking because her children had also given permission for her to talk about it all. So a real insight actually into another form of parenting and yeah, I just thought she was such a warm woman and she turned up with homemade brownies that were delicious and just one of those people that clearly just felt like she had to had to have children in her life and obviously through her miscarriages thought that might not be possible but happily has ended up having to three. Oh, sorry.

This is a silly place to record the intro. Look, I'm gonna send you to the conversation I have with Joanne. She's lovely. You're gonna love it. And when I speak to you on the solo side, I promise I'll be somewhere quieter. Anyway, good to be back. Got lots of lovely guests coming up.

See you in a little minute. Lots of love. And yeah, I'm glad to be back in Blighty. I've missed everybody. Cats, children, my own bed, and you. All right, let's have a speaking minute. ["The First Time I Saw You"] Well, before we press record,

you and I were already deep in conversation about what first brought me to you, which is interiors and a love of home decor. Initially, we were talking about small things. You've been renovating doll's houses. Yeah, I'm a bit doll's house obsessed. It's funny, isn't it, with doll's house, because it does tend to be that it's grownups that get really into doing them properly. Because I think when I was a kid, I probably didn't have the patience,

but now I would love to do a doll's house. When I was a little girl, I used to make them out of cardboard boxes. Really? And like make furniture and cut things up. I've always wanted, I've always loved small things. Me too. Yeah, so I don't think I'd like a doll's house

in the sense that I've got now. I love Cindy's. Oh, me too. More than Barbie, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Me too. Yeah, I'm desperately looking for like the original ice skating Cindy with dark hair. I've got my eye peeled for one of those.

I know the one you mean. Yeah, the active Cindy. The white long sleeve leotard. Yeah, that's the one. But yeah, I've just always loved dolls, always loved decorating and interiors. I think that's where my creative side comes out. Well maybe you might know then because I've I really like

dolls and sort of childhood nostalgia type items. Why do you think, what is it about those things do you think that we like? Because I've often tried to wonder what it is about my childhood that's made me kind of like going back into this sort of innocence of it. I think there's a psychology there. I was talking to that about something the other day. I had a lovely child, I had a really happy one. My mum died when I was 17, and maybe this love of dolls and toys

has wanted me to go back to a more innocent time when I was happy. Not that I'm not happy now, but maybe that's what I'm trying to go back to. Yeah. Yeah? And maybe because when you're 17, if something happens like that, it's a very stark before and after, isn't it? Of like, that's the end of that chapter and now you're in a new...

Yeah, you've got to be a grown-up all of a sudden. Like your childhood's finished. So maybe I feel like my childhood was cut short and I want to go back to it, but I just love as well, I love children being around them and playing it's that's what I love doing so maybe I'm going back to when my children were little as well because that was my favorite time when they were little. I don't know, I don't know, I need to put some more thought into that. There's something there isn't there? I think so, I've thought about it quite a lot as well because I'm always drawn to like I like things like Lady Bird books, like the illustrations.

Me too! And I think they're just, I know that it's not a real life but I love the sort of innocence of it and the way that all the colors are and it's all this sort of very neat but also quite sort of 2D representation of the world, you know what I mean? There's not like loads of layers going on, it's just very beautiful and innocent. Yes. When you say Ladybird book, I had one when I was little and it had in a golden syrupy

tin, how to make it into a plant pot with putty and seashells. I didn't have access to putty in the 70s. We didn't have things. Mum and me used to make glue out of flour and water. We didn't have craft things. I always wanted to make that plant pot desperately and now I am a little bit obsessed with golden syrup tins as well. I collect them. Do you collect them as well? I went through a phase of collecting tins. Yes, lots of tins. I'm trying to think what would have been in them. The tins that have like the pictures on the front of like you know Dogs or like cute looking kids or cats and yeah

I used to have them all over my wall and an area where I put them all up on the wall What is it then? Why are we collecting things like that? Tins and dolls. Yeah, we're having like a support network We don't need to work out why Joanne, we can just be happy in this world. Well that's what I was saying the other day about my dolls house. I was like, Joanne, look at how much you've spent on it. I said, it makes me happy. What's wrong with doing something that makes you happy? Definitely. It fills me with joy. And I don't play with it. My latest one, I put it on my dining table and I kind of look at it. So I might be working and it's in front of me. It's all set up with the lights on.

I just like it to be there. I think that's lovely. And I dress them nice and move them around a little bit. I do play with it, don't I? I was gonna say that too. I think that constitutes us playing with this. Well, you mentioned your mum, so I'd actually, I quite often find myself talking to people

when I'm speaking about their relationship with motherhood going back in time because We obviously get a bit of a map from our childhood or things we think we might not copy But what was your mum like? What was your childhood like? It was lovely. It was just really innocent and normal and We just lived in a normal house had had normal family holidays, did normal things. But it all changed when she died. And my dad kind of flipped, disappeared, left. It was quite horrific, left me and my brother on my own. And when I was 17, we should have been in care, really.

I kept it quiet. I kept it quiet that we were on our own and we just fended for ourselves. So I think that longing to be a mum comes from that broken family, that I want to replace this and I want to repair it. And I struggle to remember my mum, really, because I only remember her

through the childhood relationship I had with her. I don't think I was a grown-up, but I was like an angry teenager when she died and that's not a good period is it in any relationship when you're at that angry stage. So I can't really remember and I didn't have an adult relationship with her, I just remember as my mum when I was a little girl. I think yeah that's so true and I'm really sorry you lost your mum like that. Thank you. That's very young to to a parent, but also it's always significant when you lose a parent no matter how old you are.

But also I think you're right because when you're saying about angry teenage a bit, because actually when you get to that stage in your life you're actually pulling away from your parents. It's a really natural thing to do. So it's normally that we haven't got much of a relationship with our parents at that point. They're just the thing that represents kind of the old guard, you know. Authority, telling you what to do, or what you can't do. Exactly. So that must be a really devastating time to lose someone because you haven't even

recalibrated into the next chapter of where your relationship comes out the other side of that tunnel, which I guess is all the more poignant to you now that you've got daughters who are the other side of that. Oh, it totally is. It totally is because all I ever wanted after that was to be a moment, have my own family. And this is like a violin sub-series. I lost six babies.

I had six miscarriages. I didn't think that I'd be able to have children. So my girls, to to me are just like everything. They're my world. I'm obsessed with them. And when they were little it was just the happiest time of my life. I loved it. I was so fulfilled and so happy and if I could live in, you know, if you could go back in time and live in a period, I'd live when they were three and six. I just absolutely adored that. Were you aware at the time of how magical you were finding it? Yeah. I was annoying to other people, I think.

You know, it was that period when, you know, like scummy mummies and drinking gin with your conflicts, all that kind of fashion. Not that people were drinking gin, but, you know, people were rebelling against their traditional yummy mummy look, weren't they? Scummy mummies. But I was just really blissfully happy. I, yeah, I just loved it. I loved school holidays, I loved having picnics.

I think I must have been a little bit annoying. Well, actually, no, I find it really nice to hear because I understand how things culturally move around and I get that that, there's a space that is, it's good to have that space where people can go actually some aspects of motherhood are really hard and challenging and where have I gone in all this. However, I know what you mean by that culture where you can kind of be almost reluctant to be the one to say, oh actually I like bits of this, I do feel fulfilled,

but some of it's really fun. It became almost much more acceptable to be slightly slacking off all the time or finding your kids really annoying. Some of that's quite sad. It is because I just loved it. I loved it. I did worry for a long time that I wasn't setting a good example to the girls. I was brought up, I went to an all girls school in the 80s. I was brought up by left-wing feminists. So it was like, it was an alien to everything I'd ever been taught being a stay-at-home mum.

And I worried, am I setting a good enough example for my daughters? But they've turned out all right and they're both, they're amazing what they're both doing. So I must have done something right, I hope. Well, also I think the role of feminism is not to say that you have to be, it's about actually being able to have the world you want around you.

So if you are lucky enough to find the world you want around you. So if you're lucky enough to find the things that make you feel good and make your heart beat faster and their home comforts and the things that you've actually... that's as big as it is wide. I don't think one thing has more value or is more what you should set out to achieve than another. So I don't think that is kind of going against, I think those feminists would be really, I think maybe it all says but it's fine. Yeah, but not 1980s left-wing feminists, no it wasn't allowed.

Well maybe I suppose if you're talking about like a sort of militant idea but then if it's genuinely what you want then I think that that's all fair game. I think that that probably was balking against the idea that that is all we should be hoping to want for. Is that a phrase like Riley? No, I think that's right because it was my choice. I did have a job, I did have a career, but I gave it up and stayed at home to look after them and I loved it. And I suppose I was just wanting to create that happy home again, wasn't I?

To mend what had been broken and taken away. And that's why I love interiors, that's why I love homes. I love being at home, because it's safe. Yes, I totally relate to that. And your house feels like that. Your house, when I came in, it's got such a similar feel to mine. It's just beautiful, eclectic.

There's history and collections all around, stories. There's just beautiful, eclectic, there's history and like collections all around, stories, there's stories everywhere aren't there? Stories, exactly yeah. Yeah I love that way you've described actually because I'm a bit obsessed with that, like the stories behind things and then I think it's like when you came in and you said oh this is like the inside of my brain and I think the thing is about the world I always feel like the world can strip so many bits of you away, but when you come home, it's that way you come back to be like fortified, you know? Yeah. So I've always felt quite comfortable putting bits of my personality around me, as obviously

you are as well. Were you encouraged to do that in your own house when you were small as well? I was always re-, I bet you were as well, reorganising my own bedroom and reading Jackie magazine and getting tips out to like organize your closet and things. I had magazines ripped to shreds all over my walls. Yeah, I was always trying to make it like a little bit unique and a little bit me. Yeah, I think that's lovely. And also I realized I hadn't properly...

I'm sorry to hear about your six miscarriages. That's a lot to go through. And actually I did read something you said somewhere that's, you said something that I've thought of a lot of times actually because in my, in this podcast I speak to, you know, the broad church of it is working women who happen to be mothers. But I've thought a lot about that term of being a mother because you said with your miscarriages that even though they didn't result in you having a baby, you were already a mum. And I've thought about that a lot because I think that if you're lucky enough to actually have a baby and become a a mother in that, you know, fulfill it

to its end, it doesn't mean that by the, for all the women people that are trying to become a parent that, where they haven't resulted in bringing that baby home with them, you're already on the path, aren't you? And you can already mourn for... It's the future. Once you're pregnant, you've not just lost that tiny baby, you've lost the whole future you'd imagined with that baby. And you do, the minute you're pregnant you start thinking about this, the Christmases, the birthdays, the holidays, when they go to school. So you've already got that world, so you've got to let go of all that and mourn all that as well. Exactly. And what kind of support were you getting with that experience?

It was so hard because it was like 25 years ago. I lost three, had my oldest daughter, then I lost three more and had my middle daughter. It was difficult. There wasn't the internet. There was, it was called the Miscarriage Association. They were brilliant. They sent out letters. You could ring them up and you could talk to somebody. People didn't talk about miscarriage though. People, I know my husband's family were quiet. They didn't want to talk about it. They didn't want to acknowledge it. People were embarrassed to talk about it. And I embarrassed people by talking about it because it was horrible.

It was a horrible period in both of our lives that's still with us. It never goes away. And I think people do talk about it more now and if somebody does mention that it's happened to them I will always go and support them and say I know, I know what it feels like. I went through that too because you've got to, you've got to be allowed to grieve for it and yeah I think it's much better in the 20 years since I went through it, I think it's much better now. Yeah, definitely. And it sounds like, I mean, I often ask people if they always wanted to be a mum,

but clearly that was something that was a massive part of it. And I do really, it's so nice to hear you saying about how much you enjoyed your kids being little and that busyness of them being around you. But obviously you've also got in the background all these other babies that you kind of imagined and where that might have had. But it sounds like you then had this very close relationship with your two elders when they were little. I know you have three, and I will come to that. There was sort of two different chapters to it,

because you're two little ones when they're growing up. And I know you've spoken a bit about when they were leaving home because you've come to London to see me today but then you're seeing your big two while you're here. So what can we talk a little bit about? It broke my heart. Absolutely. It made me pallid and it broke my heart when the first one went and it still makes me upset now. I couldn't leave the house for months. I was just so upset and so depressed and I was... it's like I feel her feelings. It's really strange so I was like I had to make her

take me off Snapchat because I didn't want to see her driving through like Trafalgar Square on a Boris bike and she was having the time of her life and I was jealous that I was missing out on it. I wanted to do everything she was doing and that's not fair because that it was her out on it. I wanted to do everything she was doing. And that's not fair because it was her life. So it broke my heart and she couldn't ring me up because I'd get so upset. It was seven weeks before I saw it. I get emotional thinking about it.

My husband had gone down to London for a meeting and I was really grump because he was going to see and I was like, and he came in at nine o'clock at night and he'd brought her home with him. And it was like, wow. It I was like, and he came in at nine o'clock at night and he'd brought her home with him and it was like. Wow. It was just like, I just squeezed, I just squeezed. It was just the most beautiful thing.

But we get on so much better now because me and Mayel just want, we are so similar and we bicker. And I am an irritation to her. She adores me, but it's like, I always get things wrong and I'm a bit loud. We get on so much better living 300 miles apart. It's a lot better, our relationship.

Because we used to always be telling tales on each other to my husband. She'd be ringing him up about me and I'd be ringing him up about her. He's like, you're both as bad as each other. So yeah, it was horrible when she left home. I was more prepared for it when the next one went because it was after lockdown. She's neurotypical, so she didn't go to university away. She went to university in Leeds and she lived at home during lockdown for three years.

We never thought she'd live independently. They told me that she'd never go to a normal school or speak and she got six A stars and a first. Oh wow. She's doing a master's at Central Saint Martins which she's living in London on her own so I'm so proud of her. That's incredible. Absolutely incredible so I was sad when she went but I was ready for her to go as well and I knew that she didn't have any friends at home, even going to university in Leeds she'd struggled to make friends and I knew she needed to do it to grow, so it was almost like pushing her out of the nest and I'd already gone through the grieving process of letting go of them

both at that point and like not being like a helicopter parent, so yeah I was ready for her to go and I'm just so proud of her, so proud. She doesn't live her life how I'd live it. Like, she'd kill me. Last time I went to our halls of residence, we walked in and she went, oh, I think a bird must have gotten in. And I thought, I think it got in a few days ago. It was like, there were things off the wall,

and she just like cleaned it up a little bit. But she's happy and she's living independently. That's amazing. So when, how old was she when you were told that she... 18 months old. So you've got to grieve again, you've got to grieve the child you thought you were going to have. All the hopes and dreams you've got, you're told you've got a child that's not going to speak and that's not going to go to mainstream school and the sister was against her. I had to fight constantly to get her support at school, like to move schools. I was like, I was Mrs Hardcastle, I was that sort of

pain in the arse with the local authority but we fought, we fought, we fought and look what turned out. She got the support, she went to a school that understood her and she's absolutely blossomed. That's incredible but what an amazing learning curve you had to go through to understand what happens when you fall outside of the typical as a little person and all the help that and if they're not lucky enough to have someone like you and your husband in the picture fighting her corner. It worries me so many people must slip under the radar. Yeah, well I suppose that kind of brings us onto your other daughter, who's your foster daughter. And I've been learning a little bit,

I didn't understand about the different ways you can foster. So your foster daughter came to you as a long-term foster daughter, is that right? So this is when the child has a parent or parents in the picture that they're still in touch with Yeah, but they won't be living with them. So you're sort of Giving the family home. Yeah, a safe place for them. But there's a parent still there Yeah, so the local authority is 51% in control and we're 50% in control No, 49% in control. Can't do my sums, but the mum still, the mother and father still you have to refer to them for certain things but the ultimate

the local authority are in charge. And what brought you to fostering in the first place? It's something that we talked about when I was miscarrying, it's something we thought we might have to do then. Luckily we got our girls and we didn't have to do it, but it was always there at the back of my mind. That hole was always there wanting to be filled with toys or whatever, that hole was always there. I'd have had more and more children,

I'd have kept having them if I could. But because I'd lost so many babies and then my brother had a baby who died, and I just thought we've been so lucky. We've been so lucky to get these two girls. We can't have any more children. It made me pauling, we can't do it anymore. So we stopped but I still wanted another baby. And my friend started fostering

and I said to Tim, I want to do it as well. And we talked to the girls about it. They were 15 and 13. If they'd have said no, we wouldn't have done it. We talked to the girls about it. They were 15 and 13. If they'd have said no, we wouldn't have done it. We talked to the girls about it on holiday. Yeah, it was like getting a puppy. I don't think we realized what we were letting ourselves in but yeah, we all agreed, yeah.

And with your friend that was fostering, how much did that help you prepare for what it's really like when it's actually under your roof? Yeah I had an idea because she had three or four little boys that were very difficult. They had a different experience to us and they found it very difficult. Yeah I saw a different side of it. They're trying to train you and they're trying, it's like when you have a baby they try and tell you what it's going to be like but nobody knows until you've actually

got that baby. And I guess you only really want to hear the good stuff at that point because your heart sets and if you're someone like you who's clearly adores children, massively empathetic and wants to offer this safe, loving home, all you're thinking is what you can offer. Oh yeah, decorating the bedroom, making it pretty, baking cakes. She didn't want all that, she just wanted somebody to love her. But I just thought, I'm going to make a beautiful house and it'll be like playing at house again. The first year was so hard, realising the work that we would have to put in.

We nearly gave up a few times. It was so hard. So she came to you when she was eight, so do you meet many times before you move in? No what we did. And if I'm asking anything I shouldn't just stop me on my tracks. No it's fine, it's fine. I told her that I was doing it and she's 18 now because there's certain things I can't talk about but now she's 18, she's in charge and she says, yeah you can talk about me. She loved it. Well tell her thank talk about me. She loved it. Well, Tala, thank you for the- Yeah, so she says, yes, you can talk about me.

So, when they did the assessment, because I had a daughter who was neurotypical, they decided that I would foster somebody with special needs as well. So I went along with that, but then all of a sudden, I've got two children with different needs, which was crazy. So they said, you match with this girl,

this girl would fit into your family, she's the right age. So we went to, she was at a temporary foster care, so we went for a coffee to meet her, and she was kind of running, like bouncing around the room, throwing things. So we went for a coffee, and then the foster carer brought her to our house,

we went for a walk, and then she came for a sleepover and then she moved in. Wow. And I think we were so naive, I think we were so naive thinking because this is something that's going to be part of your life forever. Yeah. And we just took her into our family. Luckily it's worked out, it could have gone so wrong. Well I guess as well you so wrong. Well I guess as well you you're thinking about you know the experience of that little person and what's led them to be in a situation where they're about to be placed with a family. Yeah. And then you would think we can't be the ones to turn our back. No. Because so many other places already have. Just

because of the nature of the of that system in this country. And I know before we started recording, you were saying there's so many aspects of it that could really be addressed and in terms of how things are structured. But I'm sort of picturing you with the house all set and the cakes and all the things that to you would be massive signifiers

of safety and comfort but actually when they when she arrives and she just walks past all of it. She doesn't want things she wants time and love and it took a while to learn that it's just once you're an undivided attention. And were you working at this point? Yeah yeah I was a teaching assistant working at school and I thought I'd be able to carry on. I think I lasted a term because there were so many appointments. Already I was having appointments with my other daughter but there was appointments, there were social workers. It's just constant paperwork and bureaucracy and as a teaching assistant you don't get time off.

So it was on the goodwill and the kindness of the head teacher who was letting me take time off. time off. So it was on the goodwill and the kindness of the head teacher who was letting me take time off. And so I tried to go part-time. That didn't work. So I had to give work up, which I found quite hard because I loved work. Being in that school it was in quite a deprived area and I'd wanted to take all the children home from school and love them all and mother them. So I found it quite a wrench leaving that school. It was part of the community, it was part of where I lived. So I did find that difficult. Yeah.

And if someone was listening to this conversation who's thinking about fostering, is there anything that you think you've learned along the way that you wish you'd known at the beginning or is it something that actually has to sort of unfold in front of you? I think it's got to unfold but I think you've got to trust your instincts. So there are so many rules, there's so many rules you've got to follow.

Like we've got to wear dressing gowns around the house and if somebody comes we've got to have a safety plan and you've got to have the knives hidden and the alcohol hidden and so many rules. They don't matter, all that matters is that that child trusts you. So it was building up trust with her, making her know that if I ever said anything, I had to follow it through because she had to learn to trust me. So I could never say, yeah, we'll go to the park.

If I said that, then we've got to do it because she's got to be able to rely on me. And she does, she trusts me now. But yeah, it's just, it's like, she's like to be able to rely on me and she does she trusts me now but yeah it's just it's like she's like a little scared animal it was like a little scared animal that we had to win round yeah and we had to be so strict with her as well I thought because I had these little light bulb moment there I'd had these lovely girls who did lovely things I went to dance class and they were really sweet and lovely and she came in like a whirl in dervish and I sat upstairs the first morning she was downstairs throwing

cushions around, dripping on the furniture and I was crying upstairs and that's when I realized I had to be so strict with her, I had to be so strict and we had to have really strong boundaries and she liked those boundaries and she even says now you need boundaries. She liked knowing, no I'm not allowed to do that. This is what I am allowed to do. So yeah it was strict boundaries. I don't know why but I suddenly found that really moving. I think it's because you imagine that if you're just trying to give these kids a space to be loved and part of a family, that you would want to give them the freedom. But actually the boundaries and the strictness

is actually a way of showing how much you care. Totally. Because they've got, what's the attachment disorder? They've got an attachment disorder. So what these children will do, they'll do anything for attention. So if they're being naughty, she was doing it last night, she's 18 and she's still winding me husband up last night, I'm like, just stop it. Like she refuses to eat, pretend she's not hungry. It's attention and it's any attention will do. So if they're naughty, they're getting the attention out there. Yeah, even negative attention is still attention.

Yeah, and if something's going well, she's done this a lot, if something's going well, she will disrupt it because she doesn't deserve nice things and it's going to ruin anyway in the end, so she might as well ruin it now. Wow. I mean, I suppose, obviously, with fostering and children that have had all sorts of experiences before they come to you, you're dealing with these issues in big block letters. But any kid in any situation is capable of behaviors. And I suppose sometimes you might be learning things

from what she's doing that actually you think, oh, I kind of recognize that from another. And your other kids, they've got all the things they're dealing with in their teenage years. So how are you navigating your older girls with your new foster daughter? So the eldest one and her got unjustified, they rubbed along well.

Middle one and her, it's like she knew that I am really protective. Because when she was little, she couldn't speak, she had to use sign language, my middle daughter. So me and her are really close because I was the only one who understood her for three years and I'm very protective over her. So funny, both the oldest girls go, well, yeah, I know that she's your favorite.

No, she's your favorite. You don't have a favorite, but they both think the other one's the favorite. But I'm so protective over her because I had to be. I had to fight for her. And my youngest daughter could see that that was the chink in my armor. So if she wound her up, that's when I'd get mad. So they were just like, and there was jealousy all the time

and one's biting their arm and one's throwing things. They both, one of them wanted calmness. One of them needed exercise. They both needed different things. So it was so hard getting those two to get along. They do now, they're really sweet, they spend time together. When she comes home from university, they go off on the train together into Leeds to get bubble tea and sushi, so they did work through it, but that was the hard point, getting those two to get on.

And it was just like, say, getting those two to get on. And it was just like say, I was having to deal with her, the youngest and all the social workers, when the oldest was going through A levels and going to university, I had the other one going through A levels. I don't know how I did it. I know, when you're describing, I'm just thinking, my goodness.

I dropped a lot of balls, I think. I think somebody once said, if you want to pass on a ball, you've got to let go of it. And I loved that because I was always wanting to micromanage everything. And even if my husband was doing something, oh, you need to do it this way.

And somebody says, if you drop that ball, you've got to let go of it. And let somebody take charge. Delegating can be really, really hard. So hard. But also I suppose you feel this sense of, I'm the one who had the yearning, I'm the one who wanted more children, I'm the one who wanted to create this in the house. And the children as individuals, none of them decided what dynamic they're living with.

It's like you do feel that thing of wanting to give them your all and that fight for attention is, I mean, anyone that's from a bigger family understands that dynamic anyway, it's just that's what they do naturally but when you've also got the complexity of the fact that there's been choices made to create the family you have, that's puts an extra pressure. I think so and we were talking earlier about lockdown so lockdown, I didn't cope in lockdown. I had one doing a degree, one doing their A levels and I was homeschooling and I was writing

a book and I burnt out. I just, I couldn't cope anymore. We just sat in tears and rang the doctor and said I need someone to help me and I had counseling which was a long coming, and it helped me sort everything out. And it was the counselor that said, you've got to stop, what about you? You're giving everything, and you're looking after all these children, but you need to let go of them now. They're grown up, and you need to do something for yourself.

And that's how interior design masters came about, me saying, yeah, I'll do it. Because I would have never have done that before. I would never have left the house for a week and let them fend for themselves because that was my job to look after them. So doing that show was actually significant in many ways you actually just gave yourself over to an experience and yeah and let them get on with it and they did nothing went wrong my husband My husband's always been an amazing,

that's what I love most about him, what an amazing father he is. My dad was rubbish. He is amazing with those girls and they're so close with him and he'll ring them up and chat to them, he'll go and visit them on his own. It's just, I love it.

I've lost my train of thought. That's what, I've lost my train of thought now. Well now you're just going to be saying about doing interior design, so he was the one who said you can go and do this and... Well, yeah, because he had to. But I'd always done the majority of the childcare and looking after the house. And that's when he started to work from home.

And he'd never thought to do that before. And the girls learned to cook with HelloFresh. They got HelloFresh delivered, learned how to cook. None of this ever happened when I was at home. It wasn't working from home. I'm picking them up from school. They worked cooking because I'd done it all. Exactly, but maybe it was quite good for all of you

that you had this bit where you're like, I'm going to do this. And then when you're doing it, you're happily engaged in that as well. It wasn't like you were doing something where you thought, oh, what's going on there? You were doing interior. I loved it.

Yeah. I loved it. It was like a second lease of life for me. I loved it. And I've kept that feeling and I've carried it forward. The girls have independent lives now. Tim is working from home today because he needs to be there. When my youngest gets home from college,

that's just how things happen now. That's how things happen. If I need to go off and do something, then he'll work from home, which is something that I would never have put myself first before. Yeah. I wonder as well if you're,

I've spoken to quite a few people where they become a mum when their own mother isn't there, and I think sometimes that means that you haven't got that person to speak to about all these experiences. a mum when their own mother isn't there and I think sometimes that means that you haven't got that that person to speak to about all these experiences. So I guess you've been going through all these challenges. I mean you know and you're saying you spoke sign language to one of your girls for three years. I mean that's that's huge in itself. Yeah. I mean there's all these things without having you know someone you can just your mum at the end of the line to just phone up and say, oh my goodness, you won't be the leave of the day I've had.

No, we just did it on our own because Tim's parents were, they found me challenging. They were quite strict and they found me a bit loud and challenging and I was, I had my own mind and I didn't follow the rules. They adored, they're both dead now, but they adored the girls, absolutely adored the girls. But they weren't there when they were little to help. We didn't have anybody to help, so it was just me and Tim. Hmm. Well, it sounds like the two of you have got very strong foundations to you.

Yeah. And now you've had all the layers as well of all the, you know, experience together. Because you met when you were only 19, is that right? I was 19, well done. You've done your research, yeah. I was 19, Well done. You've done your research. He was 21. Yeah I mean that's little but then I guess you've from now you look back and you're like wow look at all these. Oh we've grown so much. We've grown up together. We've grown around each other so it's like

it was our wedding anniversary last month was it 24 years? 20 I can't remember. 1997. I don't know. I've got it in my mouth too. But we both were two halves of one person. That sounds really corny but we are. We would be lost without each other. We're both like absolute pains in the neck and we're like, oh, what's he done now and what's she done now? But we make up for it. We both step up where's needed. But with that in mind, do you think, I mean obviously he was there encouraging you as were your daughters, but doing interior design masters,

is that one of the first things you've done where it's a bit more of a solo project as well? Yeah, that's probably, yeah, when I went off and did something that didn't involve the family, he struggled at first. He was a little bit jealous. He's quite, he's really quiet as Tim and he can be a little bit insecure sometimes. He's always worried that I'm gonna go off and find this new big adventure somewhere. So yeah, he was a bit jealous and he struggled but he's all

right with it now. Yeah and imagine also I guess if you're someone where you said sometimes people have found you know the way you live and the bold colors and speaking how you find all those things, if you do a program that's all about celebrating that aspect of yourself, that must have felt like pretty validating as well to go, actually all these ideas I've had and how I like to make my home. It was lovely and it's an age thing as well. I talk a lot about age, don't I? And it's like, I think I'm so much more confident now than I ever used to be in how I act, how I dress. It's just it is that validation of thinking you're good enough because all those years I didn't think I was but now

I realize I am. I think that's wonderful and as someone who's a complete nerd with that TV bro I literally haven't missed an episode. Firstly I really enjoyed everything you do and then that's how I came to follow you. But how was your experience as a contestant? What's it like on the other side of? I loved it. I loved it. The best thing about it was the friendships that I've made

because they're still in my life for those people and they're very close. A lot of them were in it because they wanted to, well, it was interior design masters. Somebody approached me through my Instagram and asked me to go on. It's something I'd never passionately thought I want to do this.

And I thought, you know what, yeah, I'll do this. It'll be fun, it'll be a laugh. So I was just there for a laugh. And yeah, I wanted to do the interior design bit, but I was there for the experience and just to have this lovely, this experience away from my family home. And some of them, the're much better designers than me.

And they were very competitive and very passionate about the work. So they found it difficult, I think. I realized it was quite early on. It's a television program. And I don't think necessarily the best designer always wins. There's a prize at the end. that person's got to fit the prize. We all grew, we all grew immensely on the programme and it was a learning experience for me. I just, I loved it, I loved it, every minute of it. Yeah, I mean you're totally right as well. I think that's very, you know, very wise to

see these things as TV because, I mean I love watching TV but there's always like a story. Oh we all have story arcs. Exactly, exactly that's the way these things work but I think if you can see that for what it is then it actually frees you up to just enjoy however your experience goes without feeling like any of it's taken too personally because it's not really how those things go and there's such a big affection and heart with that program I think. Oh yeah. It's not out to get you at all. And it does care about work from where I'm standing. Production are so lovely.

They really look after you. And they're not, I mean, they play little tricks like they'll hide things or they might spill some paint and like, oh, no, some paint spill. What are you going to do? Oh, there's a shell. That's not so good. Yeah, yeah, but it makes television, doesn't it? It makes television and it makes... All our year got on so well and at the beginning

they were trying to get us to like... I was with Peter in the first week and I'm colourful and he's white, all white, a Beather guy and they're like, what do you think of his white room? And I'm like, it's alright. And then we're like, what do you think of their colourful room? We wouldn't talk badly of each other. They wanted us to have that conflict and it just wasn't there. Yeah, that's good. Don't play the game.

No, we didn't want to play the game. But I have had Michelle Aguendajan on the podcast as well because I think she's brilliant. Yeah, so I think you're maybe sitting in the same seat as she is. Well. I don't know. Certainly when I was, I got the opportunity to be a guest judge on one week and I think

it was really good fun. I loved that week. But then I can talk about interiors like all day long. I loved that week though because you got the backstage, the dressing rooms. Yeah, won't we? I loved Roisin's that week. Yes. Well, she's another colour person like us.

I think that was the week that she finally came into herself and everything fitted together. I love Matt, I love Matt but his was a bit harsh that week. Ben's was crazy, his bonkers in hell. I adore Ben. Yeah it's so great. Yeah but Roisin's that week was incredible and she later posted that pink shares long didn't she? And everything I don't know how she did it. I don't know how she did it. You've got good memories. I guess as well you'd be watching it and it kind of like makes you relive your own experience, isn't it? Oh, we watched it. But like after it's done strictly and I used to watch it like, I know how they're feeling.

Well, we watched it, three of us, me, Peter and Jack watched it on WhatsApp together. And then as soon as it finished, we were on the phone to each other dissecting every single part of it for an hour. We were that obsessed. Yeah. But what do you think it is about home that, cause are you someone that your mood is directly affected by what you see around you? Yeah.

So like your house, my house is full of stuff. And I get on the internet people say, oh, it's a dust magnet. Oh, it's all cluttered. It's not clutter. It's curated and it's all arranged. And if I know if there's a cushion out of place or if it's like, it's cluttered but it's tidy

and I can't bear it to be untidy, everything's got to be in its place. And it's just the colors of the room, just like my front rooms are dark green, so that's like going into a cozy cave and it's all snuggly. And then my dining room where I sit in the daytime, there's a bright yellow sofa, so that's all going into a cozy cave and it's all snuggly and then my dining room where I sit in the daytime there's a bright yellow sofa so that's all bright and energizing it just the color you can see I'm flapping my arms

I'm all color just I think it really affects your mood I think it really who you are and how you act. Yeah and how are your girls with now that they're spreading their wings a bit and the older two have got their own places have they taken on? Well the eldest one she's got she's got in her first little rented flat with her boyfriend and it's cute it's furnished but there's a lot of my style in there there's fairy lights there's lots of little bits she's a bit quirky middle ones in a hole as I said in a bird

where the bird got in into a hole of residence she's a massive Swiftie so she's just she could live in like a's a massive swiftie, so she's just, she could live in like a rat's nest and not be bothered. She's totally different to me. She never wears makeup, she always wears jeans. I don't think interiors are going to be massive for her, but she's the one that art college. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, she's the one making things. So I guess as well you've given her like an aesthetic confidence there, or at least, you know, given it's due really. Because I don't think everywhere always prioritizes that as much. No, it was finding her strengths really because she did struggle at school

but she's like a massive, she's a clever mathematician and she was always doing origami. So it's like those two things together. That's what she does that she's doing furniture design, so it's all like folded up little art, lampshades and things made out of origami. That's incredible. But it's amazing that she could find something to study that encapsulated both of those things. And this is the little one who, when she was little.

She couldn't speak, yeah. So what age was she when you were doing the sign language with her? When she couldn't speak, so up until she was about three, we did Macathon. So it wasn't British sign language, it was Macathon. And they said because she wasn't verbal, by her having the capacity to sign and communicate, and we would always speak at the same time,

that would teach her to speak. So that's how her speech came, because it'd be like ba, ba at first, but then the word would develop. She had verbal dyspraxia amongst other things, so the mouth muscles weren't working. So yeah, the sign language, she could make herself, and she was once crying in the high jump like, what do you want? She went, no, she went and she did like cat plate. She wanted a dinner on a cat plate. So it's like, as soon as she could sign, no, cat plate like that, it was like, that's all she wanted to tell me.

So it's so important that she could find a commute, and that's when her personality, her little cheeky personality came out. Well, I think that's like a very, you know, clear way of showing how significant it is when kids have got the ability to articulate in any way, you know, or be heard or communicated. Like,'s like anything isn't when they're little little ones and they can get so frustrated but as soon as you can break it down into it

like okay let's try and work out what it is you're trying to get across. However they let it get across. Oh, so it was a cat plate. Yeah. And it's important at that age isn't it? You know what they're like. I do, yes. Can be incredibly, one of mine only drinks out of one cup and it's important at that age, isn't it? You know what they're like. I do, yes. It can be incredibly, yeah. One of mine only drinks out of one cup and it's like, no. Yeah, noddy cup.

It had to be the noddy cup, yeah. But then I guess it stretches across also to when you took in your foster daughter and she's throwing the cushions. And it's all a form of communication, isn't it? Oh yeah. But it's just sometimes it can be really tough when it comes down to us to be the patient one always. It's like I

suppose with everything that you've been through with your growing your beautiful family it's always fallen to you to be the grown-up within it all. Yeah. It's quite hard if you haven't always got a space because even as an adult sometimes you want to just Let yourself back below. That's what I'm doing now. I'm like Yeah, I'm like it's like my second childhood. It's I'm having a lovely time. I'm going to London. I'm having fun. Um Yeah, it's my time now. Oh with that in mind I I heard that you started going on Instagram as a way to keep an eye on your teenage daughter. Yes going on Instagram as a way to keep an eye on your teenage daughters? Yes I did.

Well I mean kudos for this one. But now it's become something that's part of so much more and I'm curious to know how you feel like with your relationship with your online community because it's such a big part of your world I would imagine. I'm so grateful to Instagram. I did, I went on to spy when my eldest was 13 and I wanted to know what she was doing. Did it work? Yeah, yeah. I could keep tabs on it. I do be real as well now to keep an eye on. I'm on be real so I keep... I'm up to everything.

And it was the era of like the Instamoms, you know, mother of daughters. Remember mother of daughters and mother pucker and dress like a mum? Oh, and I just thought they were gorgeous. And Erika Davis, she's like my girl crushes, Erika Davis, do you follow her? Yes, I do actually. Girl crush. It was like I was seeing women like me that weren't skinny, that weren't young, and they were wearing gorgeous clothes

and they had gorgeous houses, and I thought we just weren't represented. Older women just weren't represented, and I'd found people and I wanted to be like them and I started posting pictures of my house and showing off a bit and it grew and it grew and it grew and I've been so fortunate and lucky with it. It's my career now. I work with brands, I get to go on trips, that's how I got an interior design master so I've just been so lucky but I've also, I'm mindful as

well that I am living my life on Instagram, but I try to be quite private as well. My Instagram goes back years. There's all sorts about when my kids were little, but even more now, I am careful about, I ask them permission. I don't really talk about where they are or what they're doing too much. Yeah, and I've always got to ask their permission before they're allowed to be on. Yeah, that makes sense. But I think it's just, it shows you, doesn't it, how important that kind of community is. And I guess once you find people that, you know,

are interested in it, you start that conversation, then it becomes like, I suppose it's like, oh, going back to the same thing about you saying about the confidence you have now and how it makes you feel in yourself. But also it's reassuring, isn't it? And then you start realizing that you've got, like you know, all the things you've been talking about today, you've got the wisdom to pass back

down the line. I think that sort of thing is so important. Yeah, yeah, I feel really lucky. That's good. And well, just as a final thing, as a bit of a, I find it pretty. That's good. And what is the final thing as a bit of a... I find it pretty amazing how your eldest two daughters and you all have the same haircuts. We do! I know, has that always been the case?

Yeah. My mom would have absolutely loved it if I stayed with her. When did you put them in the little bobs with the fringe when they were small? My eldest one liked that but then she had to grow it out because she was a dancer so she for exam she grew it out she didn't have a fringe for a while but then I cut it back in in secret because she wanted it and we had to hide it from Miss West. I remember one of the dads saying if you don't stop I'm gonna tell Miss West that Lily's got a fringe. We used to have to spray it back and then she wanted it cut in again but it was something it was on Oprah Winfrey

years ago it was something she had on and this lady said, don't ever try and fight against what your hair wants to do and this is what our hair does, it's straight and this is what it does. The middle one, she's sensory processing, so she was always eating her hair. So she was always eating a jumper or her hair so we had to keep it short so it couldn't go in her mouth.

Yeah, but then my youngest daughter, she's got like really massive curly, open hair. If you ever saw a picture of her, she's totally different. But I love it. I love it when I'm walking along with them and people look at us. I think it's really cool. And actually, when you said you and your eldest bicker, I think that shows you that underneath it all, like, that's like got to be a massive thing that they're like, no, we're happy to all look kind of very much pop piece in the pod. Yeah she chooses, they both go to hairdressers, no because the middle woman never

think to go to a hairdresser I still have to take her. It's like it she's got a big gum like curtains at the moment because she's been in London but yeah she still chooses to have her hair like that. I think that's adorable. And we sometimes turn up, she's 25 and I'm 52, we will wear the same outfit sometimes, we'll turn up. Knowingly or unknowingly? Unknowingly. Oh wow. So it's like, we'll both turn up in like

a black gingham dress with black dot Martins and a denim, we'll both turn up in the same clothes quite often. Actually I've done that with my mum. Yeah. I think when you, she's got similar taste to me so it's going to happen, isn't it? Definitely. But it's, I feel flattered. I think it's lovely to happen, isn't it? Definitely. But I feel flattered.

I think it's lovely. No, it's definitely something to be celebrated. I remember, yeah, I did something with my mum and we both turned up and we had the same dress on but in two different colours. Wow. The exact same dress. Amazing. Did one of you get changed?

It was too late for that. So funny. We just had to style it out. It was like quite a public event as well. I was like, oh wow. The middle woman never dressed like me. She's like, oh, she late for that. So funny. We just had to style it out. It was like quite a public event as well. I was like, oh wow.

The middle woman would never dress like me. She always looks like she's being dragged through a hedgeback. She's so comfortable in her own skin. Yeah, we're totally different. The origami furniture girl. Yeah. I think that sounds amazing. Yeah, she is.

Well done. I think you've done an incredible job of raising your three and coming out the other side. Actually, before we finish, there was one other thing I wanted to briefly talk about. Just returning to your relationship with fostering. Because I think it's interesting. So your youngest daughter has recently turned 18.

And I think it sort of shines a little bit of a spotlight on a little bit of the foster, you know, foster care situation here. But sometimes kids when they get to that age, even though as we spoke about right at the beginning with you know, you're losing your mom when you're only 17, you're still so little when you're 18. Yeah, so little.

So in some situations that would mean that a child, you know, an adult by legal terms, but I mean in terms of where they're at emotionally, they would just be out. Yeah, I watched a documentary recently. What Stacey Solomon's husband called, he did it. Oh, it's Joe Swush. Yeah, he did a documentary on care leavers. And when they get to 17, it's all about getting independent skills.

So we've done that. We've taught her how to catch the bus on her own and she's learning how to cook and things. But some of them going to like a halfway hostel where they've got to manage their own food and cook for themselves. And they go from having all these funds that social services, they have so much money when they're in care to like universal credit.

So they all of a sudden they've had all this money and everything and then they've got to survive on universal credit. And they're just, it's just so sad. There is something, I don't know if it's in all local authorities, in mine, and it's called stay input. So if the child stays in education, which not everybody does, then they can stay with that foster family and a small wage will be paid until the 21. But some foster carers, it's their job and they need to be paid until the 21 but some foster carers is their job and they need

to be paid so they they need to get another child because that's that's what they're doing for a living it's just it's wrong you all these resources going to bring in this child and give them a lovely experience and amending them and then they get to 18 and they just cast aside it breaks my heart yeah mine hasn't she's staying with us. Well, I'm happy to hear that, but I think it's an important thing to talk about because I think so much of that would probably be

underneath most people. And certainly I didn't really know too much about how that's, I remember just before you arrived, I was thinking, hang on a minute, I think our youngest must be 18 and I wonder how that changes things. But I think it's definitely something that could do with a bit more of an address.

It needs to change. It needs to change. They need more support. They can't just be cast out like that because most of them, not most of them, I think, I don't know the statistics, but they end up with crime. They end up perpetuating the cycle,

getting pregnant and having more children that are taken into care. It needs to be mended. I don't know how. I've not got the answers. They just need more support. I think it's probably like so many things where the system's kind of antiquated and it gets left to individuals and situations trying to sort of put plasters over something that as you say just actually fundamentally needs a whole. Because in the past, I suppose, 18 was classed as an adult.

Absolutely, yeah, this is the thing, but times have evolved in the way society's set up and, you know, we now can see how really, I mean, I wouldn't be, you know, when do you feel like an adult? Adult? I don't know, mid-20s know, when did you feel like an adult, adult? I don't know, mid-20s? I still don't feel like an adult. I still frighten me that I'm the responsible adult. As my eyes fall upon the Lego I built not long ago on my doll collection. Yeah, no, I think it's just something that, I think it's actually about protecting vulnerable people in society, isn't it?

And they are vulnerable. They're more vulnerable than children who have been brought up in the traditional family. Exactly. Because we've mended them, we've gone through all this process, we've done the counselling, we've put the work in, but just to cast them out again at 18, it's just not right. No. It's not right. It's not, but in a sort of happier shift from that, When you brought your foster daughter into family and you said

like for the first year especially it was really really hard, can you remember some of the early times when you thought actually maybe this is all going to be alright with the five of you? It took a long time to get to that. What we had to do was we had to have family meetings and we all had to sit down. It got to one, there was one, yeah, there was one point where everybody had fallen out. Everybody was crying in different rooms. We'd all fallen out and nobody was happy. And I says, right, right, everybody at the table now. And they were all, oh, oh. I says, right, we're having a meeting and we're getting all this thrashed out between us.

And we did. And we were honest. And even me and Tim were like, oh, you were saying you were going to put that picture up and you never put it up. And it was everything, everything that had been, and it worked. So we did it every Sunday for ages. We had a family meeting every Sunday and we wrote things down and we were honest and open. And that's when it started to change because the little one had ownership as well. She could say things that were upsetting her. And it all, it all went, we'd fall out and get into arguments. because the little one had ownership as well. She could say things that were upsetting her.

And it all would fall out and get into arguments. It wasn't all lovely, but that was a process that helped us to move it forward for us all to be able to speak about it. God, I think that's brilliant. Because the thing as well, I think that that's teaching your younger, your children is that not to be afraid of conflict. Yeah, I've always taught them that.

Yeah, well I think that's a massive gift, isn't it? Because so many of us can be petrified the idea of any kind of confrontation or having to talk anything through. And it's much easier just to sort of take it away with you and have it like calcify. Oh no, no, no, when my oldest was young, I once fell out with the Brownie

leader over some, she had some crocs and they wanted to have some trainers and I wouldn't buy her any trainers. And me and the Brownie leader fell out and I remember saying to her, adults aren't always right. If you've got a good reason, she was about six, if you've got a good reason to disagree with them, do it. And I made a rod for my own back. But she still, because she used to disagree with me then of course but she still says that's the best advice she ever had that challenge people if you've got a good enough reason don't be afraid to challenge them yes well I've seen on your Instagram quite a lot you've put like your sort of things you want to pass on and yeah and

good thing I think I think it's an amazing bit of clarity to be able to see things like that and think actually this is I really want to make sure I've imparted this. Yeah, there's lots of things you've got like that, which I like. Oh, thank you. Thank you. But it's true. Yeah, if you see something, challenge it and don't be afraid to actually voice it. Yeah. Because actually as a kid you remember all of that stuff, don't you? Yeah, and you frankly think adults are always right and they're not always right and they need to realize that adults aren't always right. Oh, she went hard work.

Maybe so, but I think the family meeting is not a bad idea. I might call one of those quite soon. Yeah, it was really good and then we'd have the rules upon the fridge all week and they'd go back to it at that point. You said you weren't going to do that. What do you mean? We agreed rules at the end of it, moving forward, and we'd agree, so-and-so won't do this, and dad will put the picture up. And everybody had an input, because I wanted them all to feel

that they were part of the family. This is genius. Does it make me sound really like? No, I think it's genius. I think you come round it next time next week, I'm going to on my bridge. But it worked and we only had to do it for, we didn't have to do it forever. No, no, well you're basically just teaching, listening to each other and a way to move forward.

Yeah. I think that's super smart. High five to you. Thank you. I'm impressed. I'm going to have some more of your brownie now. Oh, brilliant. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, that was so lovely. Thank you, Joanne.

And I really, I think the idea of the family meetings is super smart, isn't it? Plus, I want to learn how to make brownies like Joanne. They're very good. We ate them very fast. The kids absolutely loved them. Like literally one of those ones where you eat it and then people say, these are delicious. Where are they from?

So Joanne, if you're listening, we are always happy to receive your brownies. And you, of course. And thank you to Joanne and her daughters for letting us speak so openly about their family dynamic. And I love the fact that Joanne really I could really see the idea of like the idea of fostering and then setting up the home ready to receive this little person and then realizing oh

this is actually going to be a little bit more complex but here we go up for the challenge and I could see that they've all as a family worked together to form something so beautiful and yeah it was just a real pleasure. Plus it's nice to talk to someone who's got such a similar sense of like her taste. Joanne came around the house and was just like looking at all the colors and all my bits and oh that's right yeah. I'm just in my bedroom I'm just recording something. Did you clean my popcorn? I've cleaned your popcorn bucket. It's downstairs.

I got all the popcorn out and then I'm... We used a cloth. I haven't got it wet because it's got batteries. Can I just finish what I'm doing? Yeah, so we'll tell them you did that. You'll see when it's downstairs. Sorry, Ray is referring to a Beetlejuice specialized popcorn bucket that we got in New York. I don't know if you've seen that now.

They do this thing, sorry I'm moving away from it so I can ask more questions. They do this thing where basically big movies will do specific popcorn buckets. And I think they're starting to do it here in the UK, but when we were in New York that was the thing he really wanted. So we went around like three cinemas, not to watch a movie but literally just to look at popcorn buckets we've got a Beetlejuice one and we're gonna watch Beetlejuice today and that's the popcorn bucket we're going to take with us so yeah exciting times in the popcorn world um and i'm so happy

to be back with the podcast this week what have i got on i've been talking to get some more dates in the diary to record some more although I have got a handful ready for you already. And then I am doing, tomorrow I'm filming the next advert for Freeman's. I don't know if you've seen that, but I've done a collaboration, yeah another one right, now working with them. And I'm really happy to do it, they're absolutely lovely people and genuinely like all the clothes were gorgeous and yeah really it just been really good. Then Friday I've got a gig in Cornwall and the weather forecast is bonnie so that's great because I'm gonna be on the seaside and then Saturday I'm in Madrid for a festival called Brava Madrid which is like a big it's kind of their version of mighty hoopla apparently it's big

LGBTQ plus festival so that's gonna be fun too and I lucked out because I'm not headlining and I can I tell you a truth I don't I always rather not headline firstly you normally finish in time for supper you do a shorter set you're on earlier Wicked but also in Madrid they are such crazy party guys in Spain that the gigs are always really late. I remember watching The Feeling do a headline slot once in Barcelona and they weren't on till about 2 in the morning. And I think the headline for Bravo Madrid is on at something like 1 or 1.30am.

So I've got a time of like, I think about 9.30pm. Fab. I'll take it. So yeah, that's this week. Next week's pretty quiet. I'm trying to be protective of my time because in about a month I'm going away to do a tour. We'll take that actually in Australia and I'll be away for a little bit and I have mixed emotions about it. Anyway, for now I'm home, I'm settled, I'm happy to be back with you, happy to be back with a new

series of the podcast. Please continue to send me your suggestions. Thank you for lending me your ears. Thank you to LMA for the artwork. Thank you to Claire Jones for producing. Thank you to my husband Richard for editing. Richard, sorry about the noisy intro at the swimming pool. Hope you're okay with that. Thank you to Joanne for your time and your wisdom. And yeah, thank you to to you really good to be here you know i loved doing the podcast four and a half years and counting it gives me a lot of joy so thank you all right lots of love i'll be back next week with another one I'm ready