Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 135: Ashley James

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

Ashley James is a presenter and DJ who first made her name appearing briefly in Made in Chelsea. On instagram @ashleylouisejames has a huge following amongst 25-35 year old women and she frequently posts about being a mum of two little ones, and about other women's issues. Originally from the North East, you would never know that from Ashley's accent. She told me about her extraordinary school days, and very tough adolescence, after she won a scholarship to an all boys boarding school.Ashley is mum to 1 year old Ada and 3 year old Alfie and although she wasn't focused on becoming a mum, she shared with me that it's surprised her that it's something she feels really good at. We also talked about Ashley's difficult first birth and her subsequent prolapse and vaginismus. She continues to use her media presence to talk about such difficult issues as she knows it helps many other women going through similar problems.Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Halloween horrors abound. This spooky season with these hair-raising podcasts. The Magnus Protocol. Catch you next time, dearie. No, you won't. After Dark. A How do you get your podcasts? Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. ["Spinning Plates"]

Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexta, and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to

Spilling Plates. Hello there, how you doing? I speak to you from Sunday morning. I am packing today, that is my main thing. I am about to go away for quite a long time actually. I'm feeling a little bit weird about it, like excited for the work. There's some good adventures coming up but also just a bit freaked out. I love being home so much. I mean obviously everybody loves being home but really I'm a proper homebody so when I've been home this year I haven't really done very much. If I've had time at home I'll just be in. I'm not really being particularly social. I haven't really done very much. If I've had time at home I'll just be in. I'm not really being particularly social. I think it's because the work has been

so full-on for me. So I've been, if I'm home, I'm properly home and I like pottering about and obviously being with the kids and doing bedtimes and all that but also you know just organizing things in the house. It's been making me really, really happy. I've changed a little bit of furniture around, just made the boys rooms a little bit more cozy and yeah, just nothing crazy, crazy, but just, I don't know, my usual thing of making it feel and look the way I want, which is an ever-evolving thing. And so the idea that I'm now not going to see or sleep in my own bed after tonight for a month makes me feel really weird. However I'm not complaining there's some lovely stuff on

the horizon I'm traveling to a couple of gigs I've got I'm playing an event in Marrakesh and then I'm playing my first band show in Dubai at the Opera House there and then I'm traveling on to Australia to support Take That and then I'm going to America for a couple of headline shows there in Florida and Atlanta and then I finish with a festival in Mexico which would be pretty awesome. So you know the whole thing ends with tequila so what's not to love and lots of like my son and some places I've never been before and some places I haven't been for ages and I'm happy to go back to. And so that's all good but I'm also yeah, my head's a bit full with all the stuff the kids

have got going on and making sure everything, the groundwork is all done here and everybody's happy and healthy and taking the kids for a bit of it but not all so I won't see them for a while and that always plays a lot on my mind but in a year filled with a lot of excitement this is like the last big push and after that I'm UK based till the end of the year so that will be this is this is it really so let's seize it right And this weekend I'm on Strictly Tonight, which is fun. I did my first ever performance of Freedom of the Night, the new single that came out on Friday. So yeah, it's been really fun getting into that and it's a really fun song to sing and I'm so happy with it because there's always a bit of

pressure isn't there when you're bringing out a new song but I really feel like it's absolutely what I meant it to be and what do you guys want why have you come in I can't go anywhere in this house without people coming in right you knew I was recording something why did you give me the address of the Fanta's I said they had to ask you they didn't okay I will replace your Fanta I told had to ask you. They didn't. Okay, I will replace your Fanta. I told them to ask you and they went off to ask and I didn't realize they hadn't and that is the truth. Daddy can vouch for me. He was with me.

Ray, don't react to it now, I'll deal with it. No drama. You didn't tell me that he is. Oh crap. Jesse! It's real life shizzle babes. I've also got, actually maybe if anyone in the comments

could help me, my baby cats. So I've got three cats, well I had three cats. The younger two are only eight months old. They're kittens and the girl kitten I took to be done, be neutered back in like I don't know when she was probably I don't know whenever you're supposed probably, I don't know, whenever you're supposed to, 12 weeks, something like that. She didn't weigh enough. She was too tiny to have the operation, so I had to keep an eye on her weight, and when she was the right weight to have the operation, she was also pregnant. So we had a little litter of cats two weeks ago, and they are absolutely adorable adorable and they've all got a home so I don't feel too... it's not a normal vibe to be a cat

breeder but given that it's happened now I've got homes for them all they're all very wanted kittens so it's actually a happy thing. However my girl cats the mum she started doing this thing today where she keeps lifting them up and moving them around the house and she's in a little space with her own food, water, litter tray. But is it okay that she's moving these kittens around? Because they're really fragile and like, she literally brought it all the way downstairs, one of them. As I was looking it up and it said it was about moving them

where she feels more comfortable, but it's not very practical. So I'm thinking I have to actually sort of shut her in somewhere. Because these cats, these kittens cannot be out and about they will not make it so I'm feeling like oh it was really easy until today and now I'm like okay I'm about to go away and how am I gonna do that? Anyway anyone got any advice for me? Hugely appreciated. Right never mind all that you came in for the podcast not my waffling on. Today's guest is a lovely woman, Ashley James. So she's a presenter and a DJ, that's her day job. She made her name when she was in Made in Chelsea.

But the reason why I was so keen to speak to her is I think she's bright, interesting and a little bit fearless actually. She tackles a lot of topics that I think people shy away from. She's not afraid of talking about politics, she's not afraid of talking about her relationship with her body, about her experience of sexism, about even what happened after her difficult first birth. She had prolapse, she had vaginismus and she speaks about it and I just I think it's really brilliant when is it not a good thing to you know talk about stuff like that but also make other people are going through it feel like it's okay to

talk about and I know I've actually got quite a lot of close girlfriends that can relate to all of that. Anyway I was very keen to speak to her we had a lovely chat and she's she's had a very interesting life and I'm also going to keep an eye on what she does next because I feel like it's that nice thing when the more people you know get brave about talking about things the more people respond to it positively and say that's great to hear and the stronger they get I can see that happening. So yes um just so you know so Ashley's got children. She's got a one-year-old daughter called Ada and a three-year-old little boy called Alfie and yeah, it's a really good chat. I love spending time with her. Just for context, we

spoke together back in June, so it was before the summer, June-July, and we spoke about the government which of course at that time was referring to the Conservatives and now we're in a Labour government, just so you know. So if you think here and think that doesn't make sense, that's what you need to know. But apart from all that I will see you on the other side. I'm going to keep packing while we get something. Alright, speak to you later. Bye. Well it's really nice to meet you Ashley and thank you for coming over. How is everything at the moment? Everything's good.

Yeah, I've just, I mean, the sun's out for once, which is great. I've just moved back to London, so I'm back in the mix. Back amongst my friends. Like a big smoke. Yeah, and I'm in your amazing house, so my eyes are like wandering everywhere, looking at everything. Yeah, I've played games where I can you can put things down like I don't know Christmas Day put something on the side and it'll still be there six months

later. I can actually see some like tinsel and ball balls I think. Yeah I'm a literal kind of person with that I think I grew up in quite an eclectic house my mum's got lots of bits and bobs on every surface. So I find it comforting. But it is, you're only ever a hair's breath away from chaos if you live this way. It's good though, because it doesn't feel like cluttered. Thank you.

I take that as a massive compliment. You've just moved house. Did you have to deal with this degree of clutter? Do you know what? I'm almost like the opposite. So you've just moved house, did you have to deal with this degree of clutter? Do you know what, I'm almost like the opposite. I'm a serial throw-her-away person, throw-her-away-er. So my surfaces, I think as well because I get really overstimulated since becoming a mom, I noticed it even when I lived in my flat, it was very maximalist.

I had leopard print blinds and lot of like this kind of like patterned wallpaper and then when I became a mom I almost need to strip everything back and I can't really describe it so I still feel like I'm in that kind of over stimulation period where I just can't handle much excess stuff. That actually makes a lot of sense to me because I think there's so much about especially young children that's so visceral and so sensory and so much going on all the time in terms of volume, toys, activities and your two children are really little still so how old are? One and three. One and three okay so very much

in the thick of getting different things out to play with lots of being on the carpet with bits and bobs so So I can completely understand the need to sort of dial down the volume on everything else. I've really noticed as well, weirdly, that I've always grown up around music. I love music, obviously I DJ'd as well. And since having the kids, when I'm not with them, I have silence around me.

I think it is that over-stimulation again that I just sit in silence and sometimes I'm like, oh, maybe I should put some music on. No, I think it can be really nice to have quiet. I'm like that too. And sometimes when when lots is going on in the house and Richard will come in and put music on I'm like I have to have that off because I can't hear myself think at all. It's like just too much. It's like the final straw I'm just like buzz in my head.

So I really get that. With the DJing is that something you've done since you've had your daughter? So I have done it. She actually came with me because I with Alfie I got it was locked down when I had him so it was a very different experience and I'm gonna say that I got quite depressed and I found the identity struggles really severe especially because when lockdown opened again I was really suddenly like aware of how much my life had changed. So with Ada, I made a decision to go back to work really quickly, but obviously I'm so lucky that going to TV studios or DJing,

I can kind of take her with me. So Ada's been with me to Ministry of Sound. I do a lot of brand DJ gigs, and she would come with me and just have some little ear canceling, what are they called? Ear defenders. Ear defenders, that's the one. So yeah, it was really cool actually because it kind of felt like me and her against the world

going to all these cool places. Also, I don't know about you, but when I used to take my babies to work with me, firstly I think I'm really grateful that I'm allowed to do that. If I turn up with my kid, people don't say, what on earth are you doing bringing a child in? They go, oh great, a child, because they sort of have to get on with it really. And there's always someone willing to hold them for a little minute while I'm doing what I need to do.

But I used to feel kind of a bit clever as well. There was something kind of fun about the juxtaposition of this adorable baby in amongst what's usually part of another life that I live. I don't know if you felt like that too, seeing her there with her little ear defenders on in this club. Yeah, and I guess it feels like you're, I think as women you're always kind of made to put yourself in a box, aren't you, especially when you become a mum, like are you a working mum or are you a stay at home mum? And so I think people are always a bit confused when

they see you doing both at once because they're like, what? Oh that's cool. They're like confused by it. Also sometimes it's about you recalibrating with the you from before and the you now. Yeah. So I think it can be really encouraged to sort of compartmentalize but actually when you, I think it's down completely to an individual thing. For some people the idea of bringing your baby to a work thing would just be muddle for the mind anyway. But I always felt like the quicker I could kind of have a communal aspect so the kids would be part of that world, that one fit in each camp,

the more secure it made me feel actually. Although now she's not breastfeeding, she's a bit older, I wouldn't choose to bring her to work. No, and also when they get a bit older, like when they're tiny babies, they're so portable. You can just bring them anywhere. And if you put them down when they're really small, they stay in the same spot where you left them.

I know. But when they get older, they start thinking, what's beyond that door and where does that lead to? Hey look, some dangerous stairs. Exactly, yeah, you know, we see it's like, ah, open plug sockets. I know, but I think it does change a lot when they get a bit older or when they get to be toddlers.

And I was actually reading your post about ending breastfeeding your daughter and it really resonated with me because I think that Tie you have with your baby particularly when you She said you wanted to go back to work quite quickly and I think that you then that necessity to be symbiotic for longer becomes such a Essential part of that early motherhood. Because otherwise someone else could be taking care of them and you can do more, but if you have to have that, it kind of keeps you connected I think.

Yeah, I guess so. Do you know what, I was always really relaxed about breastfeeding thing because my sister couldn't breastfeed, so I've kind of seen both sides of the coin, but I think for me it was honestly because it worked so easily, it was almost like the lazier thing to do. Oh definitely, I'm the same as well. And I think from my point of view, yeah, I mean I've always said to any girlfriends with babies, you know, you can't look into a room full of adults and pick out the ones that are breastfed

and the ones that weren't, you know, it doesn't matter at all. But I think from my point of view, I just felt like it was something that made sure I had time with babies, particularly when it wasn't my first baby. It would be like, they have to be with me. Otherwise I felt like I could probably just delegate a lot of the small baby stuff to someone else and then I wouldn't really see them as much.

I remember my partner Tommy, he would, you know, I'd be like, I'm really sorry I'm breastfeeding Ada. So he'd be like running around doing everything. And sometimes I'd be like just watching him in the nursing chair thinking like, I'm really sorry I'm breastfeeding Ada, so he'd be running around doing everything and sometimes I'd be just watching him in the nursing chair thinking, I could probably help but I'm just going to enjoy it. I'm just totally milking it now. Excuse the pun. Literally.

So with your brilliant post on it, I started following you quite a while back and I really enjoy your take on the world in your perspective and your eloquence and I see that it says at the top a voice for women and I wondered when you changed your Instagram to say that is like the top thing. I feel like it was a few months ago but I think before it maybe said something along those lines, empowerment, but I think I started feeling like I was there for the women around my late twenties. I'd say that I had quite a weird experience as a teenager because I basically went to an all-boys school at 14, so there were over 500 boys and then 37 girls, so we were the

guinea pigs. And it was a very alpha male rugby school. And then- Is this the boarding school you went to? It was a boarding school, yeah. So I'd won a scholarship. They have to let a certain number of working class kids in. My parents are from a small town in the Northeast of England.

They got my accent bullied out for me very young. Does it come back when you go home? No, it doesn't. But you know what I hate? I'm going to say that the thing that I'm most insecure about is my accent because I feel like you make such assumptions about people from the way they speak. And also when you're at school, it is the biggest hell of differences, isn't it, is working out.

Yeah, everyone will be like, have you heard the new Geordie girl? Go on, say something. And I'll be like, what do you want us to say? Just do the A again, that's hilarious. So yeah, my accent is kind of like the result of just wanting to fit in, I guess. But I wish that I had, I wish it was obvious that I had like those northern roots because I'm proud of them as well. But I went to this really intense all-boys school and kind of at the same time hit puberty. So it was just like a very confusing time.

I was very like over- very confusing time. I was very like over sexualized. I was punished a lot by teachers and I remember even things like bra shopping. Back then, La Senza was like the place to get bras wasn't it? And I remember they'd have like Winnie the Pooh ones and like cherry ones and just like they were just cool bras and they didn't go above a double D and I was a 30 double G at the age of 14. And so I remember my mom and my grand took me to a department store.

They're actually known now for having very cool bras. But back then, M&S was not the place that you wanted to go as a teenager and just getting these really frumpy bras and thinking like, I just feel disgusting and it's not fair. And I feel like I sort of was taught subconsciously at school that if you want to be taken seriously,

if you want to fit in and if you don't want unwanted attention, it's on you. Like it's up to you to change the way you dress and not wear makeup. And I even wore glasses and I didn't need glasses because I was just so desperate to be like, please just take me seriously. So I think towards my late 20s,

I started to feel like, no, I actually deserve to feel empowered and confident and a bit sexy if I want to. And it doesn't mean that everything I'm doing is for men. And actually I'd say, I typically have never wanted the male attention, you know? Like, if I want to wear a top, I don't want to have someone look at my cleavage and then be like, oh, but I deserve that

because I chose to wear a low top. So that's when I think I started to speak out against double standards and sexism. And even though I was trying to figure it all out myself and even coming from a modeling background, you know, the kind of extreme weight loss and diet culture and the unrealistic standards of getting your images back and being like, oh they've just photoshopped me. Maybe if I looked like that they wouldn't have to change

my body and so then you're constantly feeling not good enough and yeah, I that's when I kind of started talking about my experiences on Instagram and obviously it's evolved and there's lots of new elements in there now with motherhood and everything I've learned about that. I always consider myself a feminist, but I was so, I'm going to say sexist against mums until I became one and then it was kind of, again, this realisation of, you know, even like phrases we use

like, oh, I don't want to look mumsy, do I look like a mum? Or, you know, mums are always like the butt end of jokes amongst like teenage boys or whatever it is and I was like this is so weird that we always like, can we swear? Yeah. We always just shit on moms don't we? But we're sort of like also the backbone of so much in society and even when I was like, I didn't get when people would be like enjoy getting your nails done now because you're not going to be able to do that when the baby comes and I remember being like well I'm not going to be able to get my nails done, Tommy's not going to be able to do that when the baby comes. And I remember being like, well, I'm not going to be able to get my nails done.

Tommy's not going to be able to look after the baby for like an hour for me. But I didn't kind of think about all the like double standards with the expectations on a dad's role and a mom's role. So even if you're quite equal, it's never really equal because society doesn't really allow it to be. Like I still get told all the time how lucky I am that Tommy changes nappies. And I'm like, really? Like, are we still in the 1950s? Like, is that lucky? And my dad says it every time.

He's like, you're so lucky Ashley, where did you find Tommy? And I'm like, do you tell him? He's really lucky, Dad. Yeah, so the whole voice for women thing, I think it's just that I'm trying to cut through all the bullshit, cut through the double standards and be a voice for women or be a voice, be the

voice that I wish I had maybe as a teenager. Yes, I can totally see that and actually when you said about the, oh we're in the 50s, a lot of your description of how you felt as a teenager could sound like it was from previous generations as well and I think it's interesting what you said. I think it's very self-aware to see when you've actually, as you said, been kind of, you've been quite, as you said, sexist against mothers in terms of, I think there's a lot of conditioning that happens

culturally all the time. Some of it's big, bold, bad stuff. Sometimes it's really teeny tiny things. Language we might use, boxes we put things in and actually slowly slowly they do chip away at stuff and it's interesting because I think sometimes even in such a period of transition with so many things and my eldest is just turned 20 and the difference between how mums are perceived and talked about now is significantly different to when I had my first. But at the same time, there's still this transition period and there's still so much about, even with the wonderful community that can come out of social media, there's also a lot of it that's like, I don't know, this presentation of what motherhood would look like or how you might dress

or how you're going to, you know, life hacks or whatever it might be. That's like, ah, it's so much noise that it's actually very hard sometimes just to feel like yourself in the middle of these experiences with that feeling you've got to suddenly step into this whole new world that you didn't know was the next members club you were a part of,

if you know what I mean. And I think that experience of you going to that school, I knew you went to boarding school, I didn't realize the ratio of boys to girls. That is a huge thing to go through as a teenage girl. When I had the opposite, I went to an all-girls school. I didn't see any boys, I didn't know boys. I had the same feeling of feeling like a fish

out of water a lot of times. I didn't feel necessarily like I was part of the same group that a lot of these other girls have been to prep schools and stuff and I felt like whoa there's a whole world out there I didn't even know existed. But that thing of like getting to know teenage boys and getting to know your teenage self and that backdrop must have been pretty, just quite a brutal experience sometimes. It was very much a, well, boys are boys, you know, like they would never get in trouble. Like looking back at some of the stuff that went on,

there was this thing called dekegging, where basically the boys would run after you and try and pull your pants down. And it was the most horrific thing. Imagine being like 15, 16 years old, you're on your period, which is like embarrassing at that age anyway. And then suddenly you have have the first 15 rugby team

all charging at you, trying to pull your tracksuit down. And if the teachers witnessed it, they never said to the boys, that's not acceptable behavior. They'd hear us screaming. Because you know sometimes in those situations, you'd almost laugh or scream as you're laughing because it was embarrassing.

So you're running and screaming, and then the teachers would come up to you and be like don't stop attracting attention or like you know your bra strap would get pinged and they'd be like you know you've got to stop attracting attention or like I remember being always being told to like quieten down my voice because they said I projected my voice to everyone and so teachers like actually the boys don't need to hear your conversation and I'd be talking to my girlfriend so I was like I don't I don't want the boys to hear my conversation.

So it was very much about like, girls should be seen and not heard, and if anything bad happens, that's on you, because you attracted that attention. So yeah, it was just a very weird environment. But it's like, retrospectively, you're like, of course that's not allowed, but when it's your norm, you kind of didn't think anything different.

You've got nothing else to base it on and it's the whole society. School is such a society, isn't it? You're part of, so that's just the way things run. But that is quite shocking, I think. I mean, not just the... If that happened to you once, the idea of someone trying to pull your pants as you're walking, but the fact it had like a name and was a whole thing that could happen to you is really quite shocking, I think. I really like to think we've moved a million miles away from that now

but that's very recent to have such an embarrassing moment. But have we though? Because I feel like Andrew Tate is this poster boy. Well that's interesting you bring that up because you know I have all sons and I think a lot about how to make sure they feel included in the conversations that are needed to properly bring about equality. And you know, they are being raised by, they've got lots of strong women in their life. And I talk to them about all sorts of things. So they know about things like gender pay gaps, gender health gaps, all these things because they matter to me.

I get very fired up about these things, so I talk to them about it. But I need to make sure that they, sometimes when I'm away from my kids, there'll be a conversation which is very damning about men and their role. And I want to make sure they feel they've got a seat at the table as part of the change. I think it's going to be a little bit challenging actually for young men, if I'm honest. I'm sort of keeping my eyes and ears open, I guess, and keeping an eye on how they're feeling about things. There's so many brilliant examples of young women, I think.

So many role models that I can see that I would have loved when I was a teenage girl. I'm not sure I see as many young boys where I think, God, what a great young man. I hope my boys really resonate with that. And the Andrew Tate thing is, of course, a very extreme, very dangerous example of someone who's just decided to completely shut down the conversation completely.

I mean, it's quite horrifying, actually. Even when my kids started knowing who he was, some of them weren't even in double figures, and they were aware of him. It's really scary. I think it helped that he got himself into massive amounts of problems very very publicly. I don't know if it does it. It did for my boys. Okay, that's good. They were like, okay, he's a baddie. And also they got, because the little ones have got the bigger brothers,

they would have proper chats around the dinner table about it. And I didn't even need to say anything. They'd just be like, that's a bad guy. What he's doing is wrong. And they'd hear it from their big brothers. So I'd be like- That's great. Just watching, like, okay, good, it's running the right way. I worried it played into that sort of like,

extreme right rhetoric of like, you know, they're part of like the matrix and they're trying to challenge society. So therefore it's like the Donald Trump thing, even though he's now convicted criminal, it's almost going to help him in his fight because people are like, he's being wronged by the powers that be because he's trying to break with societal norms or whatever. I don't know. So it's good to hear that, your sons. Yeah, and I think obviously it comes down to the conversations they're having.

I take comfort in the fact that I think there's a lot of people around them in their life, not just their dad and I, but lots of people who I think are all on the right side of history or have got good moral compass. I'm hoping the conversations that get reflected back to them again and again are kind of mirroring where my heart lies too. But I suppose the bit that can be scary for raising teenagers of any gender is just when they start, because they start naturally pulling away, so what happens when you're teen is a little bit like you did with your voice at school. Your instinct is to want to fit in. You don't want to do anything that's going to be

the rough edges and you want to pull in. You don't want to do anything that's going to be the rough edges. And you want to pull away from your family, so be different from your family, but also fit in at school. Like, that's the juxtaposition of what's going on with their brains. So you don't want there to be a voice in there that gets their ear, that makes them challenge everything to the extent where they actually start to lose their sense of right and wrong. I think that's the big scare for raising a young person.

I feel like the teenage... I feel like I'm scaring you. No, no, but I think about it so much now, like obviously the different challenges of having a daughter and a son and trying to raise them in a way that they are both progressive and comfortable in their skins, but I feel like the toddler years are one thing and then the teenage years are another aren't they? So that's like, it feels so far away but I know it will come around quickly. Ish. I don't know, people always say one of my least favorite parenting phrases is that one, what is it? The day's dragged but the year's fly. Have you ever heard that?

The days are long. Yeah, it's like that's the worst of everything. I don't like that at all. But I also don't think it's true. Mine is enjoy every minute and it's like, but some of it's really not enjoyable. Why do we have to enjoy every minute? No, I think the better I've got at recognising that there's some things I'm really good at and other things that actually I'm not that great at and other people can step in and be things for them as well. I think we have an instinct to want to be all things to all people when it comes to our kids.

And of course, that's a lovely desire, but it's physically, mentally impossible. So stepping back, like, you know, you've already spoken about Tommy and how in his influence with them and how he supports you, your kids see that. That's what they're coming home to. That's what their first stop of like adulthood looks like. And that's a great signpost. I mean, yeah, I'll have to kind of like give you some feedback when I'm the other side of it all. My youngest is five, so I've still got quite a long road. And they're all different and all facing different things.

But it is interesting. It's definitely interesting. Acast powers the world's best podcast. Here's a show that we recommend. Céline Dion. My dream to an international star. Could it happen again? Could Céline Dion happen again? I'm Thomas LeBlanc, and Céline Understood is a four-part series from CBC Podcasts and CBC News,

where I pieced together the surprising circumstances that helped manufacture Céline Dion, the pop icon. circumstances that helped manufacture Celine Dion, the pop icon. Celine understood available wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. And when they're little, you're right at the very beginning. But what is I think really funny as well, there'll be things about your children now, even though they're only one in three, little traits that become this kernel of what you recognize in them when they're older.

It's really, really crazy. I read my old school reports randomly when we were moving because I found them all. And I was like, isn't it so funny that so much of your character is already so obvious then? So set, yeah. Like mine was like, Ashley's very good at doing things she wants to do which isn't always the things that we've told her to do. And I was like, that is literally me to a T. Like even now I'm like, no I don't want to do it that way, I'm going to just ignore that and do it the way I think.

And so when you were at left school and you were modeling, is there a plan of what you wanted to do, like how your career would span? Or have you been someone that's been quite reactive to what's gone on around you? I feel like I am a bit of a... I like to absorb different life experiences, so I go through like complete changes. Even as a teenager, I remember like one minute I was in the Barbie phase and then like the next week I was in the goth phase. Everything was like very extreme as I tried to find my identity and it's probably largely because I was

had these two very different worlds like, you know, very aristocratic boarding school and a very Working-class small northern town. So I never quite felt like I fit in and either and I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I left school and then I went to uni and then I was at one point going to do a masters in international development because I just really wanted to help people. And I really enjoyed a lot of like learning about,

sounds weird, but I just really, I remember learning about like Rwanda and the genocide and I just like astounded me that these things were happening in the world and nobody kind of helped at the time. So then I was going to go and do a masters, and then last minute I changed my mind, so I moved to London, lived in a friend's house, his parents' house, and I kind of just, I think I applied for a job on Gumtree, and just sort of found my feet.

And then the modeling thing came about, do you remember back in the day, everybody worked at Abercrombie. If you lived in London and you were my age, Abercrombie was like the place to work. So I got scouted as a model, which was basically Abercrombie's very polite way to say you're going to work in the changing rooms.

But they like, they dress it up. So suddenly you're like, oh, I'm an Abercrombie model. And then you'd be there in the fitting rooms changing sizes being like, I feel like they've lied. But that was kind of the first time that I worked in an environment where everyone was creative. Loads of the people there were there because if you were a model at Abercrombie, you could say I've got a casting and you could leave and that was fine to do.

So there was loads of aspiring singers and actors and dancers. And it was the first time I think I'd really believe that I could do it too. Because up north, where we were anyway, there wasn't anyone in the creative world. So I almost thought it was like an almost alien thing to do. Like that I'd love to do that, but that's what like famous people do not ordinary people and then when I was at Abercrombie I was working full-time and I do that evenings and weekends. I always had two jobs and Yeah, I was just kind of like maybe I could do this So that was when at 25 which you feel so old at 25 I was like is it too late to have a career change

but I quit my job and I gave myself a month to make it in television, because I just really wanted to work as a presenter. I'd done loads of experience at my local BBC radio up north and yeah, I gave myself a month to make it before I ran out of money. It's not very much time a month. Listen, when you're poor and determined,

you've got to like, yeah, I was like. You've got four weeks. I remember, it's so weird because I quit my job on the Friday, I did a TV presenting course on the Monday for four days, and on the last day, somebody said, oh, I'm going to be an extra on Maiden Chelsea. Do you want to come? It's tomorrow.

So I looked up the production company and saw that they did a lot of, they're called Monkey Kingdom and they hosted the red carpet at the BAFTAs and did all kinds of various TV things. So I thought, well, I'll go meet them and tell them I'm in Percenta and then that will be my in to TV. And at the same time, I was doing this random temping work. You know, I'd go to like Wembley Stadium before a football game and have to put flags on all the seats. Things that you don't even think about, but it was always £10 an hour, which was pretty good going back then. When Maiden Chelsea came about, my dad thought it was so funny

because obviously he was like, what are you doing, Maiden Chelsea? I kind of saw it as an opportunity to get into what I wanted to do, but it was also such a paradox, it was just this weird experience because suddenly I couldn't do the temping stuff anymore because people started to recognise me in the streets. I was there in a phone branded polo shirt handing out flyers and then they'd be like, are you actually from Angel City? And I was like, no. Oh my god, I get told that all the time. And then brands started to like, are you actually from Angel City? And I was like, no. Oh my God, I get told that all the time.

And then Brown stuck to Cotton on to it as well, so they'd find out I was kind of working for them. And so I just had to stop. And so it was weird because I was really financially struggling, but I was on this show kind of cosplaying a rich person. I didn't do it for very long, I think, because I always knew it wasn't my end goal. And I didn't do it for very long, I think, because I always knew it wasn't my end goal.

And I didn't find it a very... I think reality TV's moved forward quite a lot now since, like, lots of deaths and various things that have happened that there's much more safeguarding. But back then I found it quite a traumatic experience. I think because I've always been quite a heart and sleeve person as well, I found it a bit confusing thinking it was real life, but then other people... It was just a really weird thing. It must have felt strange as well, your dad's reaction, if you've had the experience of going to the boarding school where you're in the minority, both as a girl but also as someone that's taken where they haven't had the privileged life that maybe some of your

peers have had, and then you find yourself in a show that's kind of typifying the expectation of that trajectory. Yeah, exactly. That must have felt quite bizarre. And even how I think there was an assumption, of course I understand that I had this like super privileged life and don't be wrong I did like I went to boarding school had an amazing like amazing opportunities but it wasn't like the life that people think. So yeah, it was just, it was weird, but off the back of that, I obviously am here over a decade later, like working in TV, so it was great. So I kind of did make it in a month, but just not the way people thought. And I was, I would say that I was like really broke for years in this industry before I made it, which was weird because it was such a smoke and mirrors

industry that I kind of felt like I always had to make it. And so funny, I'd always get invited to these events. And I remember, I think it was like Heat Magazine did an article about the people who turn up to the opening of envelopes and I was one of them. But it was because there was free food and drinks at the events. So I was like, I'm broke and if I'm going to get dinner. So I'd like to stock up on was like free food and drinks at the events so I was like I'm broke and if I'm gonna get dinner so I'd like just stock up on all

the free food and drink and obviously I got to like network and meet people as well and it was fun because I was young but yeah it just felt like this was like I had this secret life. Yeah a real adventure but also I'm thinking the chronology that sounds like it was also around the time that you said you started in your late 20s to kind of find your voice a bit more with trying to speak out about some of your earlier experiences. I think because I lost it when I came into the spotlight, like so much I lost it because obviously at school the messaging was very like, don't be sexy.

If you want to be taken seriously, like have a choice. Women have a choice. You can be in the beauty lane or you can be in the brains lane. Then suddenly I was thrust into this celeb world. Remember it was before social media, so there was a much neater pool of celebs, I guess you could say, even though reality stars were obviously in a very different bracket to other famous people. It was before social media, so it was in the weekly mag. There was much less exposure. And I remember my agents at the time were very much like, suddenly,

if you want to make it, be sexy, be sexy. We need more boot. And I was like, I guess a bad stereotype of what celebrity life was maybe like back then. I'd like to think it's changed where women were sort of like made to perform for the male gaze maybe. And so I kind of had this really weird experience where I was like, well I'm ambitious and I want to make it,

but I don't want to sell myself. But of course, if you tell me that I need to be sexier, then I'll be sexier, but then I was really uncomfortable because I didn't really sell myself. But of course, if you tell me that I need to be sexier, then I'll be sexier. But then I was really uncomfortable because I didn't really feel comfortable with having big boobs, and I didn't really know how to dress, and I didn't understand fashion.

So my identity was almost like being stripped away. And I kind of, for a while, I got really bad body dysmorphia. I started to have really bad panic attacks. I just wasn't, I was kind of like driven down into this like bad place where I just didn't even know who I was anymore. So it was kind of off the back of that.

And when I was 27, I actually broke up with a boyfriend and it was the first time really that I'd ever been single. And I realized how much I equated my worth with being with like the popular guy. And I think it's because it like shielded me at school from like a lot of the like slut shaming and stuff that went on because if you had a boyfriend you were like almost theirs so they could no one else could like talk about you or touch you and then that's kind of when I went on this journey of like oh

wow like you can be single and have fun and not in a sleeping around way just to like you can put all your love like into platonic relationships and you can start to have these really cool life experiences. I went traveling on my own and that's when I learned how to DJ in my late 20s, which is also when I started to make money, so then I got more financial independence and just started to figure out myself more and then obviously the more I became happier and learned what I liked and what I didn't like,

then the more confident I got with my voice. Yeah. So that was sort of the chronology. I've still got baby brain. Can I say it's baby brain 15 months later? Definitely. Yeah, and also I'm sure your kids, you know, it's all just in the midst. I think the early years stuff is very intense,

but also you are articulating yourself really well. But I'm just thinking a lot about how it's interesting because some of what you've described must have mirrored aspects of stepping into motherhood as well and I know I'm jumping forward a bit but if you've kind of got this under from what I understand before you had your children you weren't really sure that was the life that was something you wanted to step into. And then when you go through that mirror, there's again this whole thing of losing yourself a little bit and then having to sort of build yourself back up and the expectations and

being like you haven't got a map and buying into a sort of expectation of something that you've been, we've've been taught to expect, but then you actually get there and then you sort of have to question quite a lot of it, I think. Yeah, it's funny, because I have friends who have tried really hard to become parents. They've had this big fertility journey

to get to be parents, and then they're really surprised that when they have a baby that they struggle because they're like, this is everything I wanted. I can't believe that I'm struggling. And then I think there's so much guilt associated with that because obviously when they were on their fertility journey, that was all they wanted.

And I had it where I always said I was going to be the rich auntie. Like it just didn't interest me, the idea of having children. I never envisioned it in my life. And I think because so much of my identity I put into my career, into my work, and I didn't really think that the two could kind of meet. And then got pregnant. Tommy and I really were such a new relationship.

Even I remember ringing my friend when I found out I was pregnant. And it was like the very beginning days of lockdown when we thought there was a zombie apocalypse outside and I remember ringing Jackie, I remember ringing my friend saying that I'm pregnant and I was like she was like you know Ashley like no judgment no pressure but you could keep this baby and I was like but I'm so young she was like Ashley you're 34 years old and I was like how I'm so young she was like Ashley you're 34 years old and I was like how dare you I just felt like I felt like I remember ringing my

parents. Tommy was next to me and he kept nudging me and I was like so how's the weather up there and I couldn't do it I felt like I was like a 14 year old girl that was coming home to tell my parents that I was like a 14 year old girl that was coming home to tell my parents that I was having this pregnancy. I think then when I struggled with the whole identity thing and adapting, it was like, well, this is why I didn't want children because this is what I thought it would be like. I remember a friend of mine at the time, when I first had Alfie, she came to meet him, I think it was outside at the time,

and she was like, oh, I think I haven't had a baby because I've always focused on my career. And I remember it felt like such a punch in the gut for me because I was like, oh, I feel like I've stepped into the other side where people just almost look at me a bit pitying, like, oh, you chose motherhood. Like, I'm a high flyer, I chose my career. But that's great for you. And I remember she kept saying, so what's new?

And I was telling her about Alfie and her eyes just kind of glazed over and I was like, oh no, I'm about that person that's talking about my baby, she doesn't care. And then I kind of like tailed off and she was like, so what else is new? And I remember thinking, think of something. Think of one thing. I remember racking my thing, think of one thing, and I remember

racking my brain like think of anything, think of anything and I was like I'm so sorry I've got I've got nothing and I felt I hated myself and it made me realize that when people say things like oh I hate it when mums just talk about their babies all the time I was remember thinking like but we hate that too, obviously some people don't but I was like I hated the time. I remember thinking like, but we hate that too. Like obviously some people don't, but I was like, I hated the fact that I had nothing else, but I wish I knew that was such a small fleeting period, and obviously you do get other things to talk about, and actually maybe like with Ada,

I did have other things to talk about because it wasn't lockdown, and it wasn't such a maybe intense shock, but yeah, I was like, oh oh I've stepped onto the other side. Yeah and sometimes there's this feeling that you've gone into this padded room you're not going to be able to escape from a little bit and where's the old you? I think I read that you'd said something like it was like stepping into a parallel universe where everything kind of looks the same but everything has changed. And I do think I felt like a similarly sort of seismic shift of like not really

knowing which way I was up for a little while, which is probably what prompted me to have so many of these conversations because I find it really reassuring and also interesting and inspiring to hear other people's wisdom and how they sort of navigated it. But I wonder what could be, what conversations need to happen around that shift that would help people making that transition. I suppose some of it's awareness about the fact that that's happening, because I think sometimes you have your new baby and there's a lot of focus on the health of your baby of course and the sort of practical maybe assistance of that but then inside in terms of your own emotions and you become like their carer but you're not necessarily seen in terms

of like full 360 of how you might be feeling. Particularly if you've had a birth that's not been what you planned, that can get very quickly swept under the carpet because it's like, no, no, but can we just focus on your baby's hearing? That should be great. I think I've seen, I've definitely had a few girlfriends and friends of mine where I could see in their eyes that they'd had quite a traumatic time of it, but it wasn't really something that was spoken about anymore

because that was in the before. And I remember I had a pretty traumatic birth with Alfie and I remember anytime I'd talk about it, it was almost like, oh well at least he's here. You know, you're really like, he's here now. So it was almost like it was like brushed down of like, well that doesn't matter anymore because you've got your baby, so why are you worried?

And even from like a medical perspective, so I had quite a lot of, well I still have a lot of ongoing health issues because of my birth, because there was a lot of mistakes, like even down to the point that they stitched me up incorrectly, and I found it really frustrating that even now the conversation is always around like bouncing back and how our body looks.

Like do we aesthetically look like we've not had a baby? And if so, really well done. Even the other day somebody came to the house and I said something like I've got a baby and they were like, oh wow, you don't look like it. Well done. And I was like, well done for, I was like, it's just such a weird mentality.

But I was like, I almost wanted to say, well, like, yeah but I've got loads of health problems because of it, actually. Just a little shock that we do it. Because I was like, I actually don't even care about how I look, I just want my body to work again, and I took that for granted before, and this whole, I had such a weird expectation

that you kind of have a baby, and then six weeks later you're back to normal. And I think people still do think that, and I did everything right, I did the hypnobirthing. I didn't go into the hospital with fear. I was looking forward to my birth. I was healthy. I exercised.

I did pelvic floor exercises. I even did that weird balloon thing that you slowly blow up the balloon. Oh, yes, okay. It's meant to stop you tearing. Didn't work. So I felt like I kind of, I'd always thought like

people are so negative about births, people are so negative and I hate this because I see it now of like oh it's so nice to hear a positive story because like mums tend to be so negative about births and I would say to people like you know I would love to have a positive story and I did with Ada, I took it to complete a different route but I was like, it's like this systemic way of silencing women and mums, because it's like, well, you might have had that trauma, but be grateful. Or like, don't scare new mums. But if we actually talked about it and changed things, then new mums wouldn't have to fear so much because healthcare would be

better. But it's like, shh, shh, don't scare anyone, don't scare anyone. And it's like, so why am I not allowed to talk, why are we not allowed to talk about things? And I think that with a lot of like the postpartum experience, but also I think it's so like, Tommy went away for work for a whole week and nobody said to him, who's looking after the baby? I go, I remember I had like a DJ gig and I was out for like two hours. The amount of people that said to me, who's looking after the baby? And then I I remember I had like a DJ gig and I was out for like two hours.

The amount of people that said to me, who's looking after the baby? And then I'd say Tommy and they're like, oh that's so nice. Oh, is he really hands on? Yeah, yeah, he's really good at parenting his own child. So am I. You know, it's just like, it's so weird. It is weird. We still have these, I feel like you realize that culturally we take a very long time to change our expectations

in society because it's like that, let's say that was 1950s expectation, like men don't change nappies, men are the providers, like this very traditional view. But I still feel like we have those same expectations where women are kind of a lot of now like going out and being providers as well, whether it's through choice or whether it's because they can't afford to stay at home. But yet we still expect them to do the lion's share of like child rearing and domestic help in the house. And Tommy is amazing, but for ages he kept saying,

I'm trying to help as much as I can, I'm trying to help as much as I can, I'm helping around the house. And I was like, sorry, is it my job to clean up around the house? Because I feel like when you're saying helping, it's insinuating that you're somehow taking the load off me. Yeah, exactly.

I was like, because you know we both live here and eat here and shit here and everything else. So we're kind of jointly responsible. So you're not really helping. We're like a team and I appreciate it but it's not my job but yeah it's just weird isn't it because society will still call it babysitting if a dad has his kid or still say hands-on or still like I always say to Tommy if he has the push chair like it's like Moses like the sea will part and everyone's like fanning themselves like, oh what a good dad, isn't he amazing?

Whereas like if I have the pushchair, especially the double pushchair, it's like like people tutting because you're in their way or like, oh what an annoying mom taking up the pavement space and then like people coming like, do you not think they need a hat? You know, men are praised for showing up but we're judged for like being there and how we're doing it. It's so weird. It is weird. Yeah, doing lots of emphatic nodding. I think you're right that there is this sort of duality of acknowledging that in the times we're in, women should be able to be high-flies in the workplace, but also maintaining it, being across the board with all that stuff in the home,

and the emotional tone being coming from the woman as well, is all these things that get passed down, they're generational, they're what we would have seen, so it takes quite a lot of presence of mind to actively question and articulate back against a lot of these things, I think. Otherwise they just become the commonplace again, and then it replicates down and down and down. But also I'm sorry you had a traumatic birth, I think that must have been horrible for you and I'm really sorry and the idea of medical negligence is unacceptable. And I wonder when you're saying about how it gets swept away if we still, because we have

pretty terribly the biggest gender health gap in the whole of Europe in this country in terms of the investment in male health and female health. I wonder if there's a sort of fundamental, it's like squeamishness with women talking about things that happen to women's bodies and it just gets a bit pushed away. I've got girlfriends that have gone through big life changes because of having their babies prolapse, stuff like this. And actually because it's so taboo, the girlfriends I have that have that don't even know about each other having that because they don't want anyone else to talk about it and I completely respect

that. But it's not really how things should be rolling is it? And when you've spoken about these things publicly, what have you seen happen back towards you? How many people get in touch and must have made a big difference? So I had prolapse and I was basically also stitched up incorrectly and when I talked about it, obviously you have the kind of insensitive side which I think a lot of mums get anyway. If you say you're tired, people really don't care. It's not like, it must be so hard that you're up all through the night and you're still showing up every day.

It's like, what do you expect? Or like, no, we don't really care. So with birth, you have the army of people being like, do you think that you're the only person? Women have been giving birth for years and no one else has complained about it. So it's that shut up and put up. But then you have all the people who are like, I've had prolapse or I didn't know I had a prolapse

but I think I do have a prolapse after hearing you talk about it. So you almost like build this like community or I think this in general now, like the more honest and authentic you are, especially around taboo topics, and this is online or offline, even just in your friendship groups,

you tend to be the one that people then come to because you're like a trusted voice. So that's one thing that I think is really nice. But I think what's hard is sometimes you're still trying to navigate it all yourself. You know, I was told that I should probably take my complaint further with what happened in the hospital. And part of me really wanted to do that because you think, well, at least then it might improve things for the next set of pregnant people. But then there's the other part where it's like, but then you're sort of having to relive it again.

And also you feel so guilty, especially when it's the NHS, because we're obviously really proud of our NHS and we know how much pressure they're under and the staffing issues and it was COVID at the time as well. So I think I haven't really pushed it as much as maybe I should have and I actually still have a lot of these ongoing issues just because I've been a bit of a chicken about like facing it all again. I think the last thing you are is a chicken actually. I think you're very impressive with speaking about things and challenging things and actually I think if your instinct is that bringing taking on something you

don't have to be responsible for every everything that happens and your experience is yours to own and how you heal from it is also yours as well. So I know sometimes we can feel like oh what about the next person but that's another thing you're putting yourself really you know and it doesn't not everything has to fall due to deal with that. What I did find really interesting so I did kind of follow up you can anyone can request birth notes so you kind of have a conversation you receive your birth notes and then you have a conversation with someone from the hospital and they kind of like let you talk about what you went through

and then they talk about it, they kind of read through the notes in a way that you can understand. And I sort of expected to get answers as to why my birth was handled so badly. I was as in, you know it was COVID and actually there was no anesthetist so you couldn't have been given pain relief even though you wanted it. Or you know just a really practical, this is why it happened. But on my notes it said, she's coping fine.

And I said to Tommy, were you under any doubt that I was like not okay? And he was like, no, we made it really clear. So it was this kind of like, I said I was in pain, but they kind of dismissed my pain and said I was fine. And I hate this thing of like, you always hear people say, but I've got a really high pain threshold. And I've always prided myself on having a high pain threshold.

And also I've run marathons, I know that I can push my body past pain points to like get to the end goal. But I hate, like even if you don't have a high pain threshold, ultimately like pain is pain. So why can't, if a woman says she's in pain, why can't we just take that seriously and like treat it? So also at least explain to people what the options are and what the risks are associated with them. And then one of

the effects that I had after, which I will talk about, was I had something that I now know is called, I think it's like vaginismus, which a lot of people have after sexual trauma. And yeah, basically like your muscles seize up, but what it means is you have extreme pain. So any form of like sexual intercourse, tampons, like it's like, it was agony, and no one could explain it to me. But you have all this sort of like background noise

and probably like societal expectation of like, you should give your partner sex, you know, like you don't want to, you don't want to like not give your partner sex you know like you don't want it you don't want to like not give your partner sex and obviously Tommy never said it to me but I remember like a few months in and some people I knew who'd even like got pregnant again or like were going on these weekends away like talking about like so nice to just have time for ourselves and I remember thinking like what is wrong with me like I can't let him anywhere near me. And I remember saying to Tommy, like something along the lines of like,

it's not that I'm not attracted to you and I don't want you to feel like, I think I even said something like, if you want to like leave me or you want to like sleep with other people, I understand. And he was like, sorry, like, do you think I'm like this like ogre? He was like, you know that I was there in the room,

like I don't want to hurt you either. And it was kind of the first time that it dawned on me that men aren't just these like kind of like sex mad, like if my wife won't give me sex then I'm leaving. And I think it's from things I'd heard growing up and how women let themselves go after having babies and all of those things. And I remember even going to see like a private gynaecologist

and he was saying, oh, there's nothing there. Cause I thought maybe it was like the scar tissue from the bad stitching. And he was like, no, no, no, it's nothing. It's just in your head. And I was like, but how do I get it out of my head? Like, I don't want to live like this. How can I get it out of my head?

And it turned out that it was this vaginismus, which is actually so easily treatable. I saw one pelvic health physio and she did like this massage that it was this vaginismus, which is actually so easily treatable. I saw one pelvic health video, and she did this massage and it was gone, and that was at 22 months. And I was like, isn't it mad that I have had to, I've spent so much money just to get quite a simple diagnosis? And actually that could have given me answers months ago,

and it could have resolved a lot of me feeling like I was this total freak. And even just allowing that connection to partner, which obviously isn't just sex, but I remember just thinking, am I just a form for life now and is Tommy going to have to leave me because I'm not able to be that person anymore? So I think that's a really simple and good thing to talk about because by talking about that and like loads of women were like oh I have pain I thought it was normal. Exactly yeah and there would have been so many people that would help definitely because I think that thing of thinking like is it

just me what's wrong with me and I totally I totally agree with that whole idea that there's such an encouragement to like come on you've got to be all things to all people now like once your kids are all fed, make sure your man is like, all satisfied and keep going, like, oh my word, it's extraordinary. But where's this rhetoric coming from? It's actually kind of bonkers when you think about it, that we have so much, we live in the age we do

and it's same, as you say, like, so 50s, it's a sort of concept that was supposed to be like, right, has everybody got what they needed? Fine, I'll have five minutes sleep and then I'll start the whole thing again. And I'll look presentable and I'll have dinner on the table and I'll go to work and never complain about childcare issues because I'm at work but then I'll come home and it's an impossible expectation and juggle which is why I always say to everyone do what works for you, because

people are going to judge you anyway. Yeah, and I think having the going-where-to-get-good counsel is really useful. I always feel like whatever works for you in terms of the people you go to to get your wisdom and get your strength is that sort of family of people around you, your friends or relatives, whoever it may be, that you know are your good guys to sort of help you when you're... because like you're saying about the pain relief and I was thinking, God, there's so many people that go into something like labour being like, right, it'll be a sign of weakness if I ask for any pain medication, I'm just going to... my body can do this, come on, I'm prepped. But actually, if they could do a bit of profiling, saying you know, just understanding because the relationship you have with your body and with pain is so specific and so some people will be completely fine to say this is too much for me. Other people

might be as stoic as they can be because they don't want to let that slip. So you need to understand the psychology of your relationship with that pressure in that moment so that people can actually read it properly and assist you in the way that's properly supportive. And I feel like also people's births aren't always straightforward so sometimes it's not even just tolerating pain it's like all the other things that you can't account for. Yeah any variable that you you can already say this would make me really wobble, this would make me feel good. You know just as much as you can understand to support that massive event, life event that's going to happen.

For a minute when we're talking I was thinking, I was feeling a bit like, how is it, how do we stay optimistic when there's so many different challenges to be dealing with? But then I was thinking, well what we do is what you do, so actually articulate and speaking out about them publicly. I think it's what I really love as well is that you obviously feel like I do about this importance of staying angry about things that aren't right. We've obviously we're trying to deal with like raising our kids to moderate emotion. But actually anger and feeling, you know, frustrated about things is a really necessary component of change. So it's really good to keep putting logs on the fire if they need it.

But if I ever stray into anything political publicly, I've noticed I get quite a lot of like suddenly out of nowhere, there are all these gremlins and trolls that invade my town and people don't like it. So how do you recalibrate when you've had that experience? Do you know what's really interesting? I think female magicians, I think female musicians get that the most. Any time a female musician speaks out about anything to do with politics, there's very much a like, she's just a singer, like stay in your lane like whether it's Taylor Swift or you whoever it might be whenever a female musician does it there's backlash yeah, it's true and I suppose it's as well because um

I suppose do you remember when it was the pandemic and Everybody that did creative jobs was told okay now it's time to And everybody that did creative jobs was told, okay, now it's time to go and get a proper job. It's like there's a sort of subtext that if you're doing a job that's something that resonated with you from when you were young, that you should just be so bloody giddy with joy that you get to do the thing you love to actually,

if it comes to an end, well, you were in this sort of bubble, weren't you? So I think when people sometimes talk about an inequality, a social thing, speaking about war, anything, anything you choose that matters to you, I think there's a slight thing of like, well, you're in your lovely, squidgy land, so what on earth would you know about that, and why are you the one that feels you're able to point it out? I think there might be a bit of that that goes on with musicians sometimes.

I think it's more the female thing. I think it's because like singers, pop stars, they're kind of like not the fantasy. I'm not saying like obviously, of course not all female singers are male gays, but it's that thing of like we hear them, they're our entertainment, stay your lane, like women, like you're there just to dance to. What do you know about serious intellectual subjects? I think there's like a real misogyny to female women in the music industry. But I would also say that you get that with politics

in whatever walk of life you have. And I always say like, whenever I go onto TV and I talk about anything political, I always say I'm not necessarily right, I'm just giving my opinion, and there will always be people who don't agree with that opinion. And there'll also always be trolls,

but what I don't like is that when those people don't agree with you, they always resort to sexism to kind of try and put you down in your box. So it's either like, oh, she's just a blonde bimbo or she's just a this or she's just a that. So it's almost like they're trying to squash your voice because they're like, well what could you possibly know? And you know even if it's like they say, oh she's just a reality star or she's just her, it's always something to try and like minimize your voice and I always

think that's why you shouldn't let people minimize your voice because ultimately like if women had always allowed themselves to be shrunk we wouldn't have half the rights that we did now it was like loud women who spoke up and when you do feel frustrated and angry about something then I think that has to come first even if you're just kind of doing your bit for the next generation. Well I suppose also once you start stepping into the role of saying what you're... putting your thoughts out there and you survive those bits and then you find your tribe, it probably is really empowering too. Yeah and I think, do you know what, Roe vs Wade was the first time that it really dawned on me that progress isn't guaranteed.

You know, I always thought from like, whether it's like gay rights or female rights, whatever it might be, I kind of always assumed that in 10 years time there'll be progress, in 20 years time there'll be progress. And Roe vs Wade, I was like, what is going on? And even, you know, with politics at the moment, some, I think, I don't know if it's in the reform manifesto or if it was just one person that spoke about it, but they're saying about how they're going to make it easier for women to be at home because that's what mothers want. Mothers, blanket mothers, mothers want to be with their children. It was a really long-worded thing, but I remember thinking, why can't we have choice? Why are we still

trying to like force women to go back into this like 1950s and why do we glamorize this like traditional family life? Because if it works for you, I'm so happy that people have fought so hard just to get basic rights and to be able to go to work. And, you know, I tend to like go into these these big brain research, I research weird things at weird times of the night and I didn't realize that women. Isn't it wonderful? Yeah, women up until the 1900s

or even as late as the 1940s, a man could say that a woman was crazy and she could be put in a sane asylum. There was no trial, like if a husband said his wife was crazy, she was sectioned. So it's like, why are we trying to like glamorize and romanticize what these traditional roles were?

Because if that's what you want to do and it works for both of you, then it's great. And yes, of course we should put things in place like they have in Norway, an amazing childcare system where the government pays 700 pound a month towards your childcare. And if you choose to be a stay at home parent, because it could be either mum or dad, you get to keep that money. So either it goes into childcare or it goes into your pocket, which I think is amazing. So therefore it is giving parents and mums the choice, like

do I want to be at home and raise my children? If so, I have financial freedom to be able to do whatever it is I want to do, or I can put them into childcare and go back to work and I'm not going to be, it's an extra £300 a month to do that and that's all you pay. So it's like why can't we be looking at that as opposed to trying to like force people backwards? Well I have to say that a lot of the Scandinavian countries have got it quite sussed with all of that kind of thing and there's, I of it's Norway or Denmark where you the both parents get exactly the same leave and they can't like give it all to one or one they both take that leave and it's funny because my husband Richard his ex-girlfriend when I met him

was from Norway and when we first met when we were working together he's saying oh I might be moving to Norway at one point. And I was always like, ah, don't go to Norway. I don't know, not even because we were romantic. It was just like a running joke in the band. And then we went there on tour in March. And wherever I go, I always like to do a research little fact about where I am.

So I was looking up facts about Oslo, and there was all this positive stuff about how they've organised things and the best parental support. I feel like one of the best in the world. And I said to Richard, I think you would have been really happy in Norway. I shouldn't have protested. I think you would have loved it. If you buy a lake right now, you'd be living great teeth, great health care. You'd be having a lovely time. I should have done my research. Give a more balanced view.

We should all go to Norway. One thing I've noticed with you, which I think is really brilliant, and I'm sure you're aware of it, but I think it's lovely, is how many women in their sort of between like 25 and 35 that follow you and really, I just, I suppose I just wanted to like reinforce the fact that I think you're such a brilliant role model for that age group. Thank you. I noticed actually when I was looking at some of your posts yesterday and I've got a sister, she's 26 and she'd like loads of your posts, I was like, oh hey Maisie.

So I think it's so brilliant and I just, yeah. I suppose, I hope that's a nice feeling to feel like you've got that, they've got those ears. Yeah, it is a nice feeling. Sometimes it's like a surreal feeling because I feel like I'm still figuring it all out myself. But that's okay, isn't it? Yeah.

It's not, as you said, it's not really about having the answers but I think it's so, I think it actually keeps you, it kind of like keeps you useful in your mind if you question things and look further than just the first post. And interestingly what you were saying earlier about like what's the positive, I always say obviously for me my community is largely online now but that was such positive. When I felt low, it was like you have this army, you hear such bad things about social media and of course there are things to avoid and ways that you can navigate it in a healthier way, but the

community and what I would also say as a mum is even though I was thrust into this parallel universe and you're kind of battling against loads of different identity struggles and misogyny and double standards and everything else, it almost does feel like you're kind of welcomed into this mother, sisterhood fold, where especially older moms, I mean older, not in age, but in terms of you, who has kind of been through that earlier, is my new neighbor.

She's a mom and her kids are teenagers now and I'm on my own tonight, Tommy's away, and she was like, I'll come and help with bath time. And I was like, oh no, you don't have to do that. And she was like, I remember what it was like, don't worry, I've got you sort of thing. And I thought that's so nice. And so I do feel like I really appreciate womanhood.

And I mean that in a, I still think it's really important that women are taken seriously when they choose to be trial free as well. And I feel like we still dismiss that. But I think as a whole, it's made me so much prouder and more appreciative to be a woman and to be a mother. And I wish that society kind of put moms on the pedestals that they deserve to be.

Because like we are out here sort of like trying to move society forward and raise good sons and confident daughters and you know like we all put in what we wish that we had when we were younger and so I'd say that's such a positive for me to kind of come through the lows with like a sort of like sisterhood around me. Well I think that's the extraordinary thing about when you do step into that parallel universe that you sort of feel like it's the most you know incredibly personal time you know your experience of everything you're the first it's the first time you've had that that like process but it's also your that baby is the first baby to exist had that process, but it's also that baby is the first baby

to exist like that. Everything is brand new, but you've also stepped into something that's kind of eternal. There's so many themes of it that stretch in both directions. So it's kind of from the profound to the mundane, and some of it is brilliant, and some of it's like, oh my word, I didn't know it's possible to you know feel like this rinsed or this exhausted or question myself this much it's like all it's like all the octaves in each direction I think that's why it's such a it can be such a profound thing not for everybody

some people glide into it a bit more but definitely for me it was like whoa it's like doing a big sort of like big twist of myself and then kind of like getting myself back to standing again I think. But I think it sounds like, I agree with you that whilst, you know, there can be things about the internet that can be not great, but that community thing I think is really solid and I love that feeling like in the depth of the night where you actually find people who are like, oh I understand that that's another voice in that there I think that kind of thing is really really positive and it

makes me think a little bit about actually I want to ask you do you feel like with with where you're at do you feel yourself progressing more and more towards possibly getting involved with politics in that way or do you think it will stay more as a kind of just calling out social equality, but keeping just a foot in lots of camps? Yeah, I I can't see myself being a politician for like lots of reasons. I think the level of like misogyny and violence targeted at female politicians, but I also say that I'm not necessarily,

you know, at the moment I've been like very vocal against this government, but it's not to say that the next government I'm going to glamorize either. I like being not affiliated to any one party and kind of being able to use my voice freely. I think when you get into politics, even if you go in with such good intentions to change, you're also part of a big, well you have to pick a political party for number one and not everybody in that political party has exactly the same views. Yeah, it's always going to represent everything. And I think I enjoy the creative side. I still feel like to be a female politician, you still have to, even I don't know, the scrutiny on the way you dress, on your history, on your dating life, like, you know, so many politicians have come out and talked about, like, the level of, like, death threats and rape threats

and threats to their family and obviously, Jo Cox, who obviously lost her life. I feel like I wouldn't want that, I think think I'd love for things to change. Yeah. But I don't see myself wanting to be a politician anytime soon. I think that's a really good point actually about, yeah, as you say, the way that they have to live their life and all the things they're suddenly introduced to that are really ugly, but also that idea of like being completely, as you say, affiliated with one thing for all of, for everything it represents that might actually not be right.

And actually you can achieve so much just by lobbying and being part of different incentives. So do you have a plan of what you'd like to do? Are you someone that thinks about like, no. I'm the same as you. I always think it's so funny when people seem to be obsessed with your five-year plan or your 10-year plan. For Tommy, it works.

He really is that person. But I would say five years ago, I hadn't met Tommy, I didn't want to be a mom, I was DJing, and my goal then was that happiness for me at that time was to be one of the biggest DJs in the world. That's what I wanted to do. But now it's such the bottom of my priority because my life has changed so much.

And I always think like my goal is happiness and happiness ten years ago looks different to happiness in 20 years and so I just hope that I like use my voice wisely and trust myself to like always choose happiness and not kind of get let my ego or whatever it might be kind of stop myself from chasing happiness. I think that's also quite a good way to be in the present as well. I think sometimes when some people are very reassured by lots of planning, but I think if you can go with the flow a little bit, probably acknowledges particularly in a line

of work that's a bit more creative and open to things that kind of lets those things come and go and you can actually kind of be in the moment with them, which I think is a nice way to be. Yeah. And also suits having little kids as well, I think, because they're so in the moment, them which I think is a nice way to be. Yeah. And also suits having little kids as well I think because they're so in the moment aren't they with everything. Like you know just the walk to nursery will be stopping every pavement crack or looking at leaves and things it's like extraordinary how much they can see in something you just wouldn't even notice.

Yeah it's quite nice though I feel like it gets you to like appreciate the world with new eyes a bit doesn't it because you're kind of living it with them again. Has it surprised you how much you get from motherhood considering it wasn't something you were sure was going to be part of your future? Yeah, I always said, oh, I'm just not maternal. I'm just not maternal. And it's so weird because I've always been like such an animal lover. So I treated like my pets, like my children.

So it's kind of now it's like, well, obviously, I was going to love my kids because my pets, like my children. So it's kind of now, it's like, well obviously I was going to love my kids because my pets are my kids. But it's funny how you kind of have these limiting beliefs about yourself where you have these ideas about yourself which actually might not even be true, but I never grew up really around any younger children. They just weren't really a part of my life. And again, it's probably that

feeling like you need to pick a lane and I was like the work person and so I was like well how's children gonna fit into this? But yeah it's so weird because there's a lot of chat about mum guilt and people worrying that they're not good mums but I've never felt like that and I'm like surprised at how patient I am because I'm not a patient person at all, but I've never snapped at my kids. Like if Ada wants to, she's just learned how to walk, like sometimes Tommy will just leave me

when we go pick up Alfie because Ada will want to walk and I'm like, that's fine, she can walk and it'll take me like an hour and a half to get home instead of like 10 minutes. But I'll just be like, yep, this is your world, I'm just living in it and Tommy gets sometimes noise because he's a bit more routine-y than me, so he's like, she needs to eat and I'm like, yep, this is your world, I'm just living in it. And Tommy gets sometimes noise because he's a bit more routine-y than me. So he's like, she needs to eat, and I'm like, she's happy.

But yeah, I think that kind of intuition that came, like I just really trust my instinct and I never doubt or question myself with it, which I feel like motherhood is the first thing that I know I've been really good at. Like other things I have success at but I'm quite like, I'm not lacking self-esteem but you know, I'm always doubting myself. I was like being a mum I'm like, I'm actually quite good at this. I think that's lovely and also it's funny because when you were talking I was thinking about how

when I was pregnant with my first, I did actually always want to be a mum but suddenly when I was pregnant I was saying to my mum, I did actually always want to be a mum, but suddenly when I was pregnant, I remember saying to my mum, I'm just not seeing any cute babies. All the babies I see are like, it's not doing it for me. She was like, oh. But then, just because kids,

kids doesn't mean you have to like, they're just miniature people, but when you have yours, they turn out to be these really great people. I was pregnant with Alf, and I remember saying to Tommy, I still don't like children. Because I thought maybe when I have yours, they turn out to be these really great people. I was pregnant with Alf and I remember saying to Tommy, like, I still don't like children. Because I thought maybe when I was pregnant, I was like, I still don't like children. At what point am I going to like them?

But now I actually do like children. Like, I used to be so scared of toddlers because I was like, they're like snotty and dirty and, like, gross. And now I'm like that person that's like waving at toddlers in cafes and stuff. I think, like, they're such cool little people and we can learn so much from them because they just have no inhibition. Well, so with your elders being three,

like that is I think objectively my favorite age just because it's like they've got no common sense but loads of ideas. So it's like hanging out with someone who's like just actually quite like bonkers all the time. I really enjoy that. It's lots of fun isn't it? Oh, thank you so much for that.

I'm going to finish with something a tiny bit creepy. But whenever I, I don't know why, this is like a really childish thing, but whenever I notice someone has a birthday really near mine, it always gives me this feeling of like, oh you're April the second or third? Second. And I'm the tenth so just that I put that in there. I always feel a resonance with people in there in April. I think it must be from when I was small and a big fuss was made for my April birthday, so I hope you had a really good birthday on April 2nd. I did, thank you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Us April girls like to stick together. Thank you so much, Ashley. What great chats.

Exploring, yeah, lots of things including of course motherhood, the perception of mothers in society. I suppose a lot of topics that I think about quite a lot and it was lovely to have such a proper discussion about them and a lot of fun too and yeah I knew we'd have a good chat and we did so that was lovely. Thank you so much to Ashley for coming over and yes I'm sorry it took a little while to put out so yeah it was June July kind of time when we were in slightly more sunny days but I think I did a few before the summer and then a few after summer and dotted around and hey apart from the government not much

more needs to be tweaked does it since then so thank you very much for coming to find me I'm doing random packing because of the places I'm going to I'm trying to think of like all these different climates and I don't know about you but I always find it very hard to imagine different temperatures when I'm in the middle of one so I hope that I'm packing appropriately but hey everyone going to civilize there are shops people so I'm gonna try my absolute best I'm also doing something I never do and I'm taking a piece of hand like I'm so check in luggage I never do check in luggage but what that

means is I'm sort of putting in random extra bits tell me to stop please tell me I don't need any more things because I don't need any more things. Anyway, have a wonderful rest of whatever you're up to today and come and find me again next week and I've got some more lovely guests headed your way and if you watch me on Strictly was it all right? I think it felt it felt great, I loved it. It was brilliant singing the song with those dancers whipping around me. And now, yeah, we're off.

I feel like I've kind of popped the cork on the new record, and I'm super happy to have done that. Oh, and the video will be out soon. Hope to see what you think about that. So, yeah, there we go. They'll be same as usual. Podcast, music, travel, home life. all the usual plates, you know me. Alright, lots of love to you, thank you for having some time with me.

And as ever, keep giving me suggestions, thanks to Claire for the production, thanks to Richard for editing, thanks to Eleme for the artwork, and mainly thank you to you. I'll see you soon. That's a show that we recommend. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Céline Dion. My dream to be an international star. Could it happen again? Could Céline Dion happen again?

I'm Thomas LeBlanc and Céline Understood is a four-part series from CBC Podcasts and CBC News, where I pieced together the surprising circumstances that helped manufacture Celine Dion, the pop icon. Celine Understood. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com