Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 136: Steph Douglas

Episode Date: October 28, 2024

Steph Douglas is a mum of three who founded the gift company Don't Buy Her Flowers ten years ago. I’m a repeat customer of the website when I want to send a friend some TLC if they don’t live round the corner. Steph explained how the idea for her company came about when she received 8 well-meant bouquets following the birth of her first child - and felt she now had something else she had to look after, as well as her newborn!Steph told me how she and her husband also had something unusually tough to contend with during her first pregnancy, as her husband Doug was diagnosed with thyroid cancer when she was just 14 weeks pregnant.I loved hearing about Steph's own childhood, growing up in a busy household of 6 children. She told me how one of her favourite periods was when most of the now grown up children had returned home after first relationships had failed, and they were all back, living and eating at home, having loads of banter, and would all go out to a club together after their parents had gone to sleep. Something she said I can maybe look forward to after my 5 have initially left home!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

As women, our life stages come with unique risk factors, like high blood pressure developed during pregnancy, which can put us two times more at risk of heart disease or stroke. Know your risks. Visit heartandstroke.ca. Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons age 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself.

Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hey, you're never going to guess where I am. I'm in Marrakesh. Yeah, I'm being all bohemian. I'm speaking to you in my shoes off and everything. Oh crap, one of my kids has just come back from he fell in the pool i can tell he's absolutely soaking yeah what did you do dude yes definitely swimming do you fell in okay you okay okay well let's take it all off don't worry it was your dirty clothes from today anyway come over here it's all right

Okay, well let's take it all off. Don't worry. It was your dirty clothes for today anyway. Come over here, it's all right. Okay, I will, I will um Rejoin you in a second. Hold on. Okay. Yeah, I'm back. Uh, yeah, he slipped and fell in apparently. I think he was probably jumping in He's five. He's a little bit like that sometimes Yeah, it's funny timing Um So i'm actually in Marrakesh for work. I have a tiny gig here tomorrow. I say tiny because even though my entire band and crew are flying over here, we're only playing for about 20 minutes, but it's for this Fashion Trust Arabia celebrating Middle Eastern designers. It's

quite a nice event actually. Yeah, we're doing a really short gig and the band should be here in like I think their landing in about an hour and a half and they're gonna love it because Morocco is so lovely. I don't know if you've ever been to Marrakesh but it's only a three-hour flight when you get here. It's the same time zone but so much warmer and really beautiful and we've brought the kids because it's their half term and if I don't bring them with me now I wouldn't see them for a month and if they're with me for this week then it's only three weeks three and a half weeks if I'm honest but I won't see them which is still gonna be my longest since I

became a mum and I do feel a bit daunted particularly is because a lot of my trip away is gonna involve me being in Australia, so very different everything, different climate, different times, makes you feel a bit weird. Anyway, there I'll be, but it's all going to be good, because it's all quite geared up for it now. I was feeling really nervous about it about a month ago and now I feel a lot more mentally and emotionally prepped and we've spoken about it as a family and I'm kind of, feel a lot more mentally and emotionally prepped and we've spoken about it as a family and I'm kind of you know what it's like making plans. It's putting brilliant support. I'm very lucky. I've got a lot of good support and yeah, just making

sure everybody knows what's going on and all of that kind of thing. So anyway, never mind all that podcast. We have Steph Douglas this week. Now I've known Steph for a little while actually, she interviewed me when I did Henley Book Festival when I brought out my autobiography and I really liked her. We got on really well and it turned out that she had this company, an online company called Don't Buy Her Flowers, which I'd already heard of and I already liked and I've used it a lot so it was born out of the time when Steph had her first baby and she found herself inundated with bunches of

flowers which is obviously a lovely gift and very well intended but she was feeling quite overwhelmed you know small baby to look after let alone tending to flowers putting them in vases and then a week a week later having dead flowers to deal with, all that kind of thing, and just thought, isn't there another way we could give a gift to show support, to celebrate something, to acknowledge something, to support a friend that is not going to be flowers?

And actually, I think that's a really lovely thought, and the website's brilliant. And I say this from the heart. I've used it, for example, when Dan from The Feeling lost his mum, we sent him a gift when one of my girlfriends was going through something and she broke on her foot, I sent her something.

And you can really fill it up with all sorts of stuff. So you can do anything from sort of magazines and chocolate to cocktails and books and coloring things. Like literally there's just so many thoughtful things. Actually I did it when a girlfriend had a baby and you can get like baby socks and this kind of stuff. So lots of really nice stuff, really clever idea. Steph is an interesting person. She's one of six herself so used that big family energy and she now has three of her own children and she's always

brilliant on her Instagram talking about the highs and lows of running a small business by yourself and also her life experiences raising her kids yeah really relatable lovely warm honest and she'll also talk about the fact that when she was pregnant with her first baby, she found out her husband was dealing with thyroid cancer when she was also about 14 weeks pregnant and dealing with all the emotions that came with it. Happily he's out of the woods, it's all good now, but you know, lots of things to deal with. So it's a really good chat. And I'm going to listen back while I... I'll see what's happening here.

Now Richard's playing ping pong with Jesse and Ray and Mickey's trying to play as well. He'll be waiting to see if he can, I don't know, play the winner probably, but he's a bit small. I've played with him a lot. It's basically just throwing a ball back and forward at each other rather than batting it. Today we've been to the Atlas Mountains and we went back to the Medina

and looked at some of the stores in the Souq and just doing lots of fun stuff really. It's a brilliant place in Morocco. I first came here for work a few years back and then I came here again with some friends for a break with Richard about, oh golly, must be about five years ago. And there's just an unmistakable character to it, all the colors and smells and obviously you know flavors, incredible foods so yeah I've been having a really nice time and it's I've just been really enjoying the fact that this year where I've been traveling so much I managed to involve the kids and introduce them to things so hopefully they'll have these memories when they're big of like oh I remember going to Marrakesh or I remember

going to New York I mean like lucky children yes but also nice way to, I don't know, some people, I can compartmentalize to a point, but then ultimately I'm always at my happiest when things kind of cross over. So you've got like a Venn diagram and I like it when family and friends and work all kind of have a moment where they meet and you actually kind of get the most out of things. Like I don't know what this year would have looked like if I hadn't had Richard in the band for example. The fact that he's been touring me has made all the difference. Anyway sorry. I mean yeah bring on and it's not about me it's about Steph. So let's leave you with the chats. She's a lovely lovely woman

and yeah if you have a friend in need I do recommend her website. I will see you on the other side. So I will see you on the other side. I'm so happy to see you. So how are you? I'm OK. Thank you. Emotional. Last day of primary school for one of my children.

So I think it's going to be, it will just be a really long, exhausting day. And sometimes these milestones creep up on you a little bit, don't they? Yeah. And I don't know about you, but I'm one of those people that likes to think that nothing like that really affects me because sometimes you meet people who are quite sentimental

about letting go of aspects of their kid's childhood and I always thought, I don't want to be like that. I want to be happy for where they're at and what's ahead of them. And yet sometimes. Well, because we had the play, you know, the end of term, especially when it's the last, the end of school, it's like you've got the concert, the play, the assembly, the samba tutorial thing. Awesome. Way nicer school.

So much. But the play, a few of the mums afterwards were like, oh God, I was crying by the first song. I was like, oh, I'm just like fine. So I wasn't expecting it. And then this morning I just saw Mabel's little face looking really sad and was just like, oh God. But yeah, it's okay. I think as well sometimes when it's the end of those school moments, it's when they're

stood in their year group and you look at the other faces and you realize you've seen all those other little kids grow up as well. And you're like, oh, actually we've been part of something because primary school is quite a significant chunk of time. Yeah. So I do get that. And I think because you have three children, and our youngest kids are pretty much the same age. And I was always thinking, oh, it's fine for me when they finish stages, like when Mickey finished nursery,

because I've been lucky enough to have so much more of it than, you know, that age, but lots of other. And I thought, actually, maybe the joke's a bit on me, because actually I'm the one who wasn't letting go of it and everybody else is... Let go. Yeah. But I think lots of friends who have got... So my older two are really close in age and so they're at that age where they are becoming

a bit more independent, they can walk themselves to and from school, which I really like because I've still got one that can't do that. So I'm still doing all the stuff. And friends who are in that zone and the kids have that independence, they're like mourning it already. And I think when you've spread them out, like, well, you definitely have, I have, I do feel like you have a lot more years of the kid bit to kind of go, actually, I feel like I will be more ready when they get that bit older to go, all right, we're ready to get on with whatever

the next phase is that is that bit more independence and stuff. Yeah, I know it's true. And actually, no, I think, because I, my third is the pretty much same age as your eldest as well. So I think I've got that nice thing as well with having this sort of, you know, new teenager and then the little one.

It's sweet, isn't it? Yeah. That juxtaposition in the house is quite healthy. Are you all nice to each other? Cause, well, on and off. Depends on the day, but. Overall, they're all right, actually. Yeah, I mean, I think we're in quite a good spot.

I think some of it's down to personality and some of it's age. And I think there's definitely a point where they go through a phase of being kind of annoyed. It's usually an older one to the next one down, with the friction. Yeah. But then they kind of emerge the other side of it.

Yeah. And now like my eldest two can, like they'll go out for lunch together and that kind of thing. Oh nice. Yeah, it's quite sweet actually. See, that feels like you've achieved by the time you get there. I think my youngest and my eldest are both boys, and so the youngest does completely idolize the 30.

You know, he's six. And also it means he's quite boy-like. He can handle himself because he's watching a 13-year-old. So with football and stuff as well, he basically wants to be Buster. And he had a football tournament on Sunday, and I made the other two come because I was like, look, he is dragged around everything. like every weekend he's following you two around to whatever club they're doing

and he just comes along. And the younger side of football, I was like, right, you guys will come along. And Frank scored this goal from the halfway line that was just so good and bust around the pitch and hug, and I was like, oh, this is really nice. This is like, you know, when you go, this is one of those moments that I will remember that it makes it all worth it. It was adorable. Yeah, it was, it was really,

because it's not often like that. So you kind of go, oh yeah, no, there's, it's okay, we're doing it, it's fine. Yeah. No, I think it's lovely to have, as you say, like to appreciate when you see those nice bits, like, ah, that's lovely. One day they hang out, yeah.

Having lunch together, great. That's a choice thing as well, right? It is a choice thing. Definitely. I think, you know, there's a lot to be... You know yourself, you're part of a big family. I think there's a lot to be said when you kind of emerge with this sort of shared childhood. It's a really... It's a big deal, isn't it? Yeah. Where are you in the lineup of the six?

So I'm fourth. Fourth of six? It's a lot. Yeah. I mean, I do... Now I've got my own kids. I'm like, I've got my own kids. I'm like, I don't know what. Well, so mom and dad had four, so I was fourth. And then they fostered and adopted as well. Wow.

So I've got two siblings through that. And then they also did like, remand fostering. So they did. You know, like, what was your, I don't know. I suppose they wanted to, they felt like they could. They felt they had capacity and they wanted to help people. So it all came from like a really good place and dad's a vicar and mum's a nurse so they've got that in them. But they had kids on romance, these are kids like one

of them went joyriding once, my dad went off on his Volvo trying to chase this kid. Like there was just drama going on all the time. Wow. Yeah. And now I've got my own kids and I'm like, I don't know that I would do that. Because it was mad, but we all survived. So you kind of go, okay. And I think we all came out of it with different experience of it, depending on where we were in the pecking order, depending on our personalities.

So there's loads of, you know, when you're adults, you can analyze all that and go, oh yeah, there's all sorts of fallouts or really good things as well, like positives from having people in your house that are different to you that you wouldn't necessarily otherwise have that kind of exposure to. And that teaches you about people. Yeah, a lot, I think. That is huge. And actually, I'm just trying to process that, actually,

your parents taking on, when they've already got four children of their own. So I appreciate that your siblings all have different takes on it, but what's yours? So I think it's probably given me an empathy that I wouldn't have had. Because we were pretty lucky growing up, parents all together, and everyone, we're all in, like, had a nice dad was a solicitor before he was a vicar so he had some money from that and then became a vicar where you don't get paid very much. I wouldn't say it's a career move. I believe it's a calling. Yes, yes. But, and it was noisy and it was fun and there are really different personalities, there's lots of different relationships going on. But I work with my elder brother came and joined me at work like eight years ago.

So we've built a different relationship because we hadn't really worked together before that. So we're choosing there to spend time together, which is really lovely. And I think the main thing is an understanding of that people are a product of lots of things. So for a lot of the kids that came into the house, they had a terrible upbringing or they had parents who died and another parent that couldn't handle it or there's loads, like all different stories. A lot of them have gotten into trouble really young. So, and I wouldn't have had exposure to that at all, except for through what you see on a TV or film, which obviously is often not the case. And I think that has definitely given me something as an adult.

And my brother that I work with feels the same as well. And actually before we worked together, he went into kind of a care role. So but I think it's the empathy piece. Just pull like when you see someone just being a complete scally or someone on the TV doing awful things, we're all products of where we started from, right? So it's not always that they're just a terrible person, which yeah, you can feel. But also it was quite annoying at times because it's like having to share all your stuff and

there were loads of kids in the house and that has challenges as well. Yeah, like you said, we are all products of things, but also I suppose when you see adults are just the result of that child sometimes in that situation and not everybody's lucky enough to grow up, have a childhood that's all very child-friendly actually. So as people grow up in very adult environments or very serious things going on, bad examples, bad behavior around them. So I mean, you see yourself like the direct line between how you raise your kids and then when you see the mimic things. So yeah, I think having that empathy is actually a pretty powerful gift, although I suppose sometimes it means that, I don't know if you

sort of have this sometimes where, because you can understand someone's bad behaviour, it sometimes means that you, you know, everybody makes choices don't they, about how they then, what they then pass on. So that can be quite tricky can't it, to not like allow things. Yeah. Because you can see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like in my, even with friendships, you've got friends who've had, who had a shitty time at some point, but they have used that to become something amazing and it's driven them and they've got

determination, whereas other people would have that happen to them and that wouldn't happen. So I think it's really difficult to pinpoint it. And I suppose at some point you have to let go of going, oh, well, this is because of my childhood, or this is because I was the fourth-born kid, or this is because, you know, like you can analyze it to forever, can't you? Yes, definitely can. Some people do. In therapy. Yes, yes, yeah.

Well, you've mentioned your business. So how old is your business? Is your business the same age as your eldest child? 10 years. So I had Buster and got sent loads of flowers. And I was one of the first of our friends to have kids and wasn't expecting anything really. And then all these, I can just remember the doorbell ringing

and I had like eight bouquets and was like, this is really nice initially. Like people are being really thoughtful. It's for me, it's not for the baby. And then just quite quickly going, I've got to do something with it. It's just a really crap gift when you've had a kid because you're spent, you're so spent.

You're giving absolutely everything physically, mentally. And then you've got to care for flowers and do something nice to them. And you feel guilty if you don't. And then you feel guilty that you're feeling overwhelmed and it's just a bouquet okay, what's the problem? So that was kind of the crux of the idea. And then I was on maternity leave

and had another baby after going back to work, not for that, not that long. And it just was like, there has to be, like this doesn't make any sense that that's the go-to gift. And it very much, I don't think, maybe it's changing a bit, but it was very much the go-to gift. It's like, oh I don't think, maybe it's changing a bit, but it was very much the go-to gift.

It's like, oh, what do you get a woman when she's had, when something's happened, oh, you buy flowers. So I started the business when the kids were two and four. That's all. Yeah, but I didn't, it didn't feel like that. You know when you look at your eldest and you're like, oh, I thought they were all grown up by the time they were two,

and you're bashing out more kids, and it's like, oh no, they weren't, they were still really small. But it wasn't pressured because I was doing it in my own time. I was at home. I was running it in my spare room. I was packing boxes myself. I was in control of it because I didn't have loads of money.

So I wasn't pumping, I wasn't suddenly spiraling out of control. It was like really steady growth. Oh, we've had five orders today. Oh, today we had six. And I would pack them as and when. And the point was that they were gifts that were like just thoughtful. So we had a thermos mug and tea and biscuits because it's like you never get a hot cup of tea when you just had a baby. You're firmly warming up in the microwave or like cashmere socks and a bit of luxury. And it was a few years before we bought in the Create Your Own, but that's kind of the biggest thing we do now.

So you can go and you can choose from the different categories and put something bespoke together. But very quickly people were saying, oh, I want to send this care package for someone who's going through grief, who's been bereaved or had baby loss as well. Like all these other things where people just send a bunch of flowers and it's meant with thought, but if you could also give them a food voucher

or comforting things or creams that are going to make them feel really good or like a lovely candle in a book or something that's going to encourage them to take a bit of time for themselves, that's the whole point basically behind business. Well, I think it's genius actually because yeah, the business is called Don't Buy Her Flowers because it's about saying there's another way to approach giving a gift that can be thoughtful. As you say, it's funny you mentioned about the flowers. I remember that too when I had my first baby and all these flowers turn up and then you're

sort of running around, you haven't gotten enough vases. You're like, oh, I was supposed to have trimmed that, I'm supposed to have refreshed the water on that and then you just watch all these flowers die. Yeah. It's just not something you should be thinking about because the babies are such a big shift in your life. And you're depleted. And absolutely depleted.

Yeah, and I think what I love about you, and I'm someone who's a repeat customer to your business. You are. Yes. I think I first went to your website, your shop, when I was, a friend of mine had broken her ankle. Right. So I was pitching her that on the sofa.

And of course, flowers is not an ideal thing then as well because you've got to get up, sort them. Yeah. So I just wanted to be able to, I think I filled a box with things like something to eat, some chocolate. I think I did some coloring things. I thought that might be quite fun when she's lying there. Some magazines, just some fun bits and bobs.

It was really fun building it. I've since done it for a few different occasions actually and sometimes just thoughtful. I think it's really, really clever. It's because of the way the website's set up, you don't have to, if you're not in the mood to put everything together, you can just get to different categories and find what you need. We've got the set ones, yeah. So I think that the idea is genius,

but how does it work with, did you become a sort of entrepreneur, like almost like by default because you had this idea, or was it something you were doing before? Is this your first business like that? My background is brand and marketing, so I've worked in lots of different communicat- like I worked in government communications on campaigns

like smoking ban and stuff. That is quite a while ago. And the London 2012, but big managing lots of teams, managing lots of agencies and kind of getting, making sure their messaging was coherent and that kind of thing. So that side of it, the communications part of it, the branding and stuff, that's probably where I'm comfortable. But in terms of like

buying stock and managing it and cash flow, I have had completely no idea. But I think because it started really small, it was me in my spare room, you just learn it. So it's kind of one thing at a time. And then I had a blog, I was writing about relationships and motherhood and had a blog and that meant I had this kind of community that built who just completely got it, like the idea of you need some TLC. And I think it's, I mean, it will have changed massively from your first baby to your last baby, where there was a period where bloggers

were coming out and there was lots of like, about everything looking nice and motherhood being about this beautiful kind of white linen thing, which we know it's not. But there was a bit where women were portraying that a bit, I think. And then that shifted in the last 10 years. Probably went quite extreme the other way for a bit, like, oh my god, my head's awful and it's really hard. Yeah. And I think it's probably calibrating a bit now.

But that kind of meant that it made sense. It's like, yeah, it's not a breeze. So actually it's okay if I don't want to receive flowers and actually I'd rather have something that's TLC and is a bit more comforting in some way. Because you're acknowledging this is quite hard. And that's the bit I completely underestimated when I started it, that someone putting something together and giving it to you and going,

I think you need a bit of TLC, makes people really emotional. Like we get loads of reports still of people crying when they open a box because people have given them something that isn't that helpful, or they just feel like no one's really seen how they feel. And that's the bit that I didn't even know was a thing. But obviously it is and again, it is the same for bereavement and cancer diagnosis and all

these things that people don't know what to do. So they'd want to do something and so you kind of that you have that go to. But yeah, I think that is that connection. It's about connection really. Yeah, absolutely. And when you don't, we don't all live around the corner anymore and you can't just pop in with a lasagna and it's like that's,

you still crave that. We still want that from both sides, whether you're giving it or receiving it. Yeah, I think that's really true. And also, what you're talking is making me remember about Holly Tucker, who set up NotTheHighStreet.com and has Hodging Co. And she was talking about how it's typically culturally women that have this, they're the

gift buyers in households. But actually, there's a lot of power to that. And I think sometimes gift buying is seen as sort of a bit of frippery or something, a little bit like that. But actually, it's a massive business, a massive economy and a massive power in the house about those things and how people shop and how they extend. Because it's like a language, isn't it? We speak to our friends if you send them something saying, I'm thinking of you. Yeah, who's thought about it. And I think, interestingly, all of the big gifting companies are founded,

funded and run by men, which infuriates me. Wow. And I think it's because they've seen that gap and then they've gone for it. But a lot of them, it focuses on like price or it's not lovely quality stuff or it's a kind of mass market and it's kind like price or it's not lovely quality stuff or you know it's a kind of mass market and it's kind of bulk selling it. But it's really interesting because like men don't buy gifts, not really, like not for all these occasions. Very rarely have you got lots of men buying gifts for someone's had a baby or someone's been bereaved. It's

not their language like you say. So yeah that's just a kind of another slight barrier, but just really interesting when you look at all the big companies. Definitely. And I suppose these are things that you learn as you go along that you might not even have really thought about when you started. Yeah, no. So when you had your babies, were you thinking

you were going to go back into what you'd done before? Yeah, so I did after my first, and after my second I went back, but I knew I had this idea and I'd started the blog. So I was like, I'll do that to see how that goes because I had never had a desire to run a business and it felt like such a leap. I was like, if I start a blog and I'll see how that goes and just that was kind of a stepping stone and that went really well and it made me feel a bit more comfortable like, okay, people feel like me because you

don't know do you? That's a massive challenge of motherhood that you think you're in a bubble on your own. Yeah. Going like, oh my God, this is really hard or I miss my friends or all those things. And actually you just need to be able to talk to people. So that was really lovely. Again, that was connecting with people and writing about how I felt.

And also like I hated Doug for after each baby. Not the whole time, but I would feel this, this rage that I'd never felt, not really before or since, but after each child where I just, I think it was just like confusion, resentment, like what I'm stuck here, you're off doing whatever you've got to do. It just didn't, and we, and it took us a while to work out what that was. And a lot of it stood with the mental load and just thinking like, oh my God, why is this all on me? And I wasn't expecting it at all. Yeah, I think that's quite a common one, isn't it?

Yeah, when I wrote a post called When New Mums Get Angry and it went viral and all these people going, oh my God, this is how I feel. And I was just talking about the rage, like when you'd go to the loo and there'd be an empty toilet roll fit holder there. And you'd be like, why the fuck am I the only one that's doing this? And you've gone from being like a couple who fell in love, hopefully, and were having a

lovely time, and quite equal, you know, like I earned more than Doug when we first got together and it just hadn't crossed my mind that that would shift when we had a kid. And then, you know, I wasn't expecting this and I don't know. And again, I think there's a lot more conversation about that now, but the term mental load wasn't around. It wasn't something that I had in my vocabulary then. So I just felt really cross all the time. Yeah, I think there's a lot of language around things like that that didn't really exist in the same way then.

Yeah. We didn't talk about it in the same way. And I think I can relate to that feeling of just like, it's almost exponential as well because I feel like I always wanted to kind of keep up with all the things I was already doing and then be able to sort of balance all these extra things on top. Yeah. And really like you don't win any prizes for it.

No. And I think that sort of slight, I can't think of a better word than slightly martyring yourself to like, look how drained I am, look how tired. But also that's what we were shown, and I don't necessarily mean like your mum and my mum, but that generation did do all the things. But then we've tried to throw in work more so on top of that and still do, but that's the example we were set. So we still think we should be, we're the one that should be on top of the house still do, but that's the example we were set. So we still think we should be, we're the one that should be on top of the house,

we're the one to be on top of the food. Like we're like this guinea pig generation, you're going, I actually know because you're doing all this extra stuff. So it doesn't make sense that you can do that, but we're still trying to. And it is, there's definitely like a martyr to do it, like trying to, yeah, like beating yourself up

if you haven't kept up with all that stuff. And there's no prize. Were you kinder to yourself as the babies came, like by the time you got to number five? I think I recognized more my role in setting up the dynamic at the house. So the things that I would get annoyed about, I could see that actually I'd I'd, I'd facilitated as well. You know, like for example, I'm not very good at delegating a lot of stuff because I actually quite like keeping across things, but that doesn't mean, again, it doesn't, you know, it's not actually that as it's not a great prize really, because

you end up feeling like spread like an elastic band or something. But I think, I think I was just more like a bit curious, like how have I become part of something that's very traditional even though I'm a modern thinking person? So I think it's more like, whoa, just sort of recognizing how I've basically done, I mean I'm now raising five sons who I hope will do things around the house and participate, even though I'm the sort of person who'll also go, oh it'll be quicker if I do it, just leave it there and I'll sort that in a second. It's really annoying.

I find that very annoying about myself. But you're right, it is that slipping into the traditional role because that's all we've seen and know. And it's like all the TV shows we grew up with, everything like that, all those roles existed. So we're trying to do it differently, but there's no guidance as to how you do that. And it's not just we're doing that and the blokes involved are also doing that. So it's not necessarily their fault sometimes, but you feel really ragey at them. No, but I'm also smirking to myself because I'm imagining he really angry and then making this

business that's basically sending depleted women these gifts. And then saying to Doug, so today I've done this many orders to all these exhausted women. They've just had a baby, they're not feeling seen. And he's like, I'm kind of picking up on some subjects. Passive aggressive, very subtly letting you know. I've just had a baby, not feeling seen. He's like, I'm kind of picking up on some subjects. Passive aggressive, very subtly letting you know. There's a whole community of us building an army. Yeah, basically.

But also I guess it's like a lot of these things. You know, your nurture and coziness and all the things that go into the boxes is basically the thing that you're thinking, I would like, this is what I feel like I need. Oh, it's 100%. And also, because there's a handwritten tag with each message. There you go. Do a Steph, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. But the words that I wanted and I needed and I got like, there was one, when I had my first, Doug hadn't been very well, so he actually was diagnosed with cancer

when I was pregnant with our first. And the baby arrived early, and I think probably, because he'd just finished radiotherapy, so he'd finished all this treatment and surgery and all the stuff that had gone on through my pregnancy. So my body just went, it was what the doctors have kind of said. And so the baby came early, and Doug wasn't well,

you know, he'd had all this treatment, so he was completely depleted to be fair to him as well. And I was at the hospital with the curtain around you trying to feed. Buster was really sleepy, wouldn't latch, and I was just like, fuck, I wasn't, I've got no idea what to do. And a friend, who's one of my best mates, sent me a message and she'd had a baby a couple years before, just saying, just in case you're having a wobble or finding it hard, I really struggled with the feeding. It took a little while, but then everything worked out. And I just wept.

I just sat reading it because I just really needed to know that I wasn't on my own and that this was normal. And you know that when you've had five children, you know that. But when you're in that first, and actually even when you have second, third, whatever, you forget and then you have those feelings again. And they're still there and worrying about, I don't know, like breasts and bottle and... You worry less, but there's still lots of pressure on yourself. So much.

And so when someone says, you're doing an amazing job, it's going to be okay. It's going to get easier. You're like, you latch onto that like, oh my God, okay, it's going to be okay. And I think that again, was part of having that handwritten message. It was like, you need some words in there. It's not just about the gift. It's that it's the purpose behind it. It's the reassurance and how much that meant to me

when I have had different, and same with when Doug was diagnosed and a friend sent me a necklace. And she's a nurse, very medical obviously, but it was like, she's also, we're from Stroud in Gloucestershire, which is a brilliantly hippie alternative place. I've been to Stroud, that's beautiful.

Yeah, it's lovely. And she gave me like a bead, it was a bead that was some sort of crystal that had some sort of magical powers. I mean, it didn't. But I wore this and she, and like a bead, it was a bead, it was some sort of crystal that had some sort of magical powers. I mean, it didn't. But I wore this and she, and it just said, I thought you might need a little extra something. And again, I just remember crying because it was like, oh, she sensed that I do need an extra something like this.

It's so horrible. I'm having a horrible time. And I wore this thing until it turned my neck, like it didn't, it wasn't about luxury. It wasn't about like big spending or anything like that, it was just about the thought, that's what it meant so much. That's very thoughtful, but I'm sorry, we are going to have to talk about some of the things you just brought up, because that's quite a lot of information. How early was your baby? How early was your baby? Four weeks.

So it wasn't terrible. And he was about six pounds. He just was really sleepy. It was that he wasn't ready to. And also for you that wasn't. I wasn't ready. I'd just finished work. So I had no maternity leave.

And he had obviously been- So he went from one gear to another gear. Yeah. And we hadn't unpacked the, I think we had the John Lewis delivery had arrived and we hadn't unpacked it yet. So it was like, but again, it all was okay. My mum filled the fridge, you know, so that when we got home, but it was a lot. And Doug's like, that must have been terrifying.

Yeah. So I was 12 weeks pregnant. No, I was 14 weeks pregnant when he was diagnosed. Okay. So it's just the bit where you've just started turning people and you're excited. And you're feeling like that you're the most special person in the world. It's that bit. I wasn't poorly, you know, I wasn't unwell or anything. I was just giddy, like excited. We'd been married a couple of years. And I was 29, he was 30, so we were young.

Wow. Yeah. And he, so Doug played rugby, so he's pretty fit, always been really healthy, never smoked, all that stuff. And he had like an upset stomach and night sweats and just a couple of things. And he knew absolutely that something wasn't right. And it is again, and again, I think this is something women are probably really bad at when something's not right and you kind of go, oh, but I've got so much to do.

So it's like a real moment for going, no, but if you're not doing right, you need to go to the doctor. No, a lot of people leave it, don't they? Yeah. And he went to the doctor and they were like, oh, it's probably IBS and you're 30, you're a fit young man, you'll be fine. And as he was leaving, he had his hand on the door.

He just turned around and was like, do you know what? Can you refer me? Because through his work, he had private healthcare. And the doctor was doctor was like, fine, yeah, okay, and referred him. And then he, like very shortly afterwards, he'd had a load of tests and scans and everything and he had like, it was late stage three. So actually, had he not pushed it, it could have been a really different story, which was quite... Oh my goodness. So it was a, yeah, total shock. And again, it was like, so it was a total shock.

And again it was like, but we're having a baby, I'm really giddy, it's like oh shit. Well I suppose firstly I'm really thankful that he had that thought to say can I refer on. So was it like bowel? No, it was really rare. So thyroid cancer is quite common, I think. So again, the thing we had to cope with is everyone going, oh, I know someone that had that, be fine, be fine.

It's a really rare one, you can't treat it with chemo. And actually, it will have changed massively. So this is now 14 years ago. But he had to have surgery, like a pretty major, so he's got a kind of scar across his neck and removed the thyroid and then it had spread to quite a lot of lymph nodes, which again is not the news you want to hear.

And his work at the time had put me in a hotel nearby, which again, talking about that kindness, thoughtfulness, those gestures, I was thinking about it at all because it was just like, oh shit, okay, we've got to deal with this. And they put me in a hotel near to where he was having surgery. And the surgeon rang me at like four in the morning. No, it was like late at night, but we had best, Doug's best mate was in Australia and it was four in the morning here when I

woke up going like, oh my God, this is, I don't know what to do, like panic, because they were saying it has spread and it's worse than we thought it was. And that was when the only time in the work when it's useful to have someone on the other side of the world when you can call them when it's four in the morning. And they, yeah, and then he had to have, he lost his voice a bit, lost loads of weight and all that stuff. And then had to have six weeks of radiotherapy, which is kind of cumulative. So initially we were going

on the train and I was going off to work and he was going to the hospital and having a bit of treatment before work and then it builds and then by the end of the six weeks or by about three weeks, four weeks in I think he was like at home and in pain and yeah. So it's horrible. All during your pregnancy? Yeah, so I think I was about 19 weeks when he had the surgery and then the radiotherapy was that last six, so from about, what would that have been, 28 weeks, something like that, 30 weeks. That's lots to deal with.

Yeah, and I think, and then you've got a baby there, so actually you can't deal with it in that, oh I didn't deal with it at that point because- No, because then you're suddenly a new mum. I went to, what can I do that's practical? So it was like, I had to get my mum, was like, does he have any pajamas? I was like, no, because he's 30 years old and we just got married.

She's like, well go out and get him some pajamas. You know, it was like, what can I do? And I'd go on a cycle every three days, I'd have like a meltdown of some sort, and I'd ring a mate, and I remember my mate lived in Ireland and I rang her and a cycle every three days, I'd have like a meltdown of some sort, and I'd ring a mate. And I remember my mate lived in Ireland and I rang her and just sort of squeaked and she talked me down. There were just lots of moments that you remember where people did the right thing, because

there's lots of people who say stupid things. But we're really lucky. So it's a weird cancer because it's not curable, so there's still traces of it, but they monitor him. It's not done anything. He wouldn't know to look at him. He's big. We've met him.

He's a big guy. And yeah, but we only recently told our eldest because I was like, he could see it or hear it somewhere, but because they weren't born, it felt, it's like, when do you tell them that and not to scare them? because it is still really scary. Yeah. But we could say it now and go, oh, but this is what happened and Dad's fine, and they monitor him, so he'll be the first, like, whereas any of us could develop anything at any time, he's monitored all the time, so he's actually probably safer than anyone.

Yeah, it sounds like he's had a really good level of care, but I think it's just, anyone. Yeah it sounds like he's had a really good level of care but I think it's just, I'm just trying to imagine it because I think when you're having a baby and it's all the conversations going one way and I bet for a lot of people they would not know how to navigate a conversation where you're trying to say congratulations and I'm sorry at the same time. Yes. That's a lot and then... It just made everyone desperately sad. And because you're so young as well. We were so young and we were having a baby and it's meant to be this wonderful time and like our parents, you know, like... Yeah, that must have been so hard for them. Yeah, and I don't think I probably appreciated how hard it was, especially for Doug's parents, until more recently, but I remember being like, I just want to be with my mum and dad and at the

time they were still living in this big vicarage and my brothers and sisters all live nearby and everyone just kind of congregated. Like they do when shit happens. Like even though we all spread out, we don't see each other often, then suddenly you go, and my mum wasn't well recently in the same thing, you know, everyone's suddenly on the WhatsApp,

we're all together. And I couldn't drink obviously because I was pregnant. Everyone else got absolutely shitfaced in the garden. It was a lovely sunny day. But it was really nice because crying was just happening every now and then and then it'd be stupid laughing and taking the mick. Because it is a big fun fact. There's a lot of micky taking obviously like you have in a big family. But I think when we had our second 21 months later, that's when it hit me more because I realized what I'd missed out on with the first because actually Doug

had to sleep in a room next door. He was in lots of pain still. And I'd be awake at four in the morning going, I can't feed, I don't know what to do, like this is all really horrible. And suddenly I felt a bit resentful of that, which is a really unfair feeling. And it's one that we've then obviously been able to talk about since, but at the time I couldn't really work out what I was feeling, but it was like, I missed out and we missed out and that was really hard.

And now I've got a baby and I'm really expecting a lot from you because you're okay and you're well. He couldn't have possibly lived after that expectation. But I think the lesson was you can't bury anything, can you? When shit things happen, at some point it's going to have to come out. That is a very true statement, I think. Even when you think you're... Oh, coping. Yeah, coping, exactly. And actually, yeah, I mean, I think that idea of like that resentment building, even though he could, you know, it wasn't his fault, he got sick.

Yeah. There's still you going, yeah, but I still had to do everything. And you should have perspective, right? You talk, lots of people talk about shit things happen, it gives you perspective. And so in lots of ways, I did. And also, I think for us as a couple, going through that quite early on in our relationship, had lots of benefits really. And I know how we responded to that.

And we became very close and kind of pulled together and supported each other when one of you is having a wobble. But you still have to deal with day-to-day life and they still leave their shoes in a stupid place and you want to kill them. And you're like, life and they still leave their shoes in a stupid place. You want to kill them. And you're like, oh God, I shouldn't be really zen about this, but you're driving me insane. So that's still there. Have you ever had it where you realize you're talking to your husband in the same way you talk to the kids?

Yes. And then I'll say, I'm not your mother. And that always feels like a real killer line. I think it is tricky though, and I suppose everything you're doing as well is under the roof, because if you're also then, you had your children really close together. 21 months, so they were quite little. Have you got gaps like that in your family,

with your childhood family? No, we're not quite as well. I've got an older brother and sister who are 13 months apart, which again, you know, like, what were you thinking? Your parents really were just like. I know, and do you know what? My mum's like, I think he got me drunk.

You were just in the car. You were like, parenthood car. Yes. You rev it up. Yeah. Mental. Yeah. So, but, and then there's a gap three and a half years between me and my older brother.

But then the next one is only a year younger than me. Okay. They tried every, the few variations. Yeah. Yeah. Basically. Just keep going. And it goes boy, girl, boy, girl, boy, girl, which my mum's always really proud of. That's so neat. Okay, well you know.

I'd be pretty pleased with that. It's very neat. Yeah. And you said your dad's a vicar, so is religion part of your life as well? Not mine, no. And I always feel really bad saying that because I know that for my dad, he would love it if I was like, yes, I have found Jesus. But not yet. Not yet.

And he would probably say, you never know when. He was older. No, but we grew up going to church. And weirdly, when the kids that my older two were small, there was a church at the corner of my road. And I used to go sometimes on a Sunday with the kids, mostly for the free church art care, play group. But there was a comfort in it. Yeah, it must be so familiar.

Yeah, and the songs and Christmas going to the Christingle service or whatever, there's that. But yeah, apart from that, there's no... And Doug's a total atheist. So when we got married in church, my dad did the ceremony. He walked me down the aisle and then got changed during the first hymn. A quick change. Yeah, a quick change. He put his frock on. And Doug was totally happy to get married

in church because it was my dad. So it was actually really nice. That's lovely. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because Richard, my husband, grew up in a very religious household. So his mom used to go to church. His mom was quite an evangelical church and he used to go to Christian camps and things like that. Yeah, we did that. I do think there's a, if that's been your childhood, there's something you can really

relate to if other people have had that childhood. It's like a big sort of canopy. Oh, Vickers kids as well. When I meet Vickers kids, you all have the same. I don't know though, because my parents, I think maybe because Dad had been a solicitor for 25 years and because they had so many kids and my mum loves a gin, plays bridge, she's not a vicar's wife type, loves to swear. So they didn't push it on us, whereas some vicar families would be, like, I can remember my family would all just be not taking the piss because that would be mean, but you'd be like, that's what we're supposed to be like. You know, like the Flanders in Simpsons, it'd you'd be like, that's what we're supposed to be like. You know, the Flanders in Simpsons,

it'd be like, that's what we're supposed to be like, but we're not, because we're just this chaotic rag-taggle, there's always a random other kid with us, bunch, that mum's like, I don't know what everyone thought when we used to walk in. And then now, when dad, he's retired now, but in this last few years, every now and then, we'd all turn up at Christmas,

and they'd see us file in, and be like, oh, there's another one and another one and another, and we've all got loads of kids and partners and it's just like this mass gathering. I find it really lovely to hear about that. It sounds kind of magical. I mean, I suppose I'm picturing like sort of Walton style. With lots of gin, everyone likes a gin actually. That is the drink of choice. Perfect. There was a really lovely phase and I wonder if you'll have this when your kids are older. So everyone had gone off to uni.

Some people had moved in with partners. And there was a couple of years where everyone broke up with it. It was like initial partners that everyone then split up with, moved back home. And there was this period in my early 20s, post-uni, where we were all at home again and it was and we would like sit around with mum and dad drinking, eating, whatever. The mum and dad would go to bed and then we'd all go like to the local crappy nightclub or and it was really fun and there'd be other, sometimes there'd be a partner there or a new partner would come and yeah that was like the golden age that I remember. Yeah yeah. But it was and we all totally thrive in that someone new coming in.

Yes. So then everyone's got to put in more comedy. You've got to have more stories, more embarrassing. Yes. This is our family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of that showing off. I know that vibe very well. I like it, actually. Yeah. That's part of the big family thing. It is. And I think, you know, with relating to everything you've dealt with, with your, with your family

life, but also with your business, I think that there's an element of sort of problem solving as well that goes along with big family life. That you have to kind of get quite, don't sweat the small stuff and just kind of look at like, lay things on the floor. That's my mum's phrase, don't sweat the small stuff. Really? Yeah. She bought me a book when I was 21, because I'm a warrior.

And she would always be saying, like, that's not stuff you need to worry about, Steph. But I still do. I still would. And actually, my daughter is probably similar. So now that you're a decade into running your business, are there things that you would say are good bits of advice for people when they're starting? Do you get people approaching you saying like, you must get it? Yeah, I think women especially hold themselves back because we feel like it's got to be perfect.

So we're like waiting for the idea to be perfect, for the look of it to be perfect, the logo's got to be perfect, the product's got to be perfect if it's a product. And actually that was advice that someone was like, okay, like I had a logo and I was showing them different loans, but do you think it's in there? You've done it, logo done, tip, move on. And it was like, okay. And it was something with much more experience than me. And it was like, yeah, because you can change everything.

And actually I wouldn't have known when we started Don't Buy Her Flowers that people would be buying gifts for someone going through cancer or bereavement or birthdays actually our biggest occasion. Like I was just focused on new mums and it's only by getting it live that you find that out or you find out actually people would love to put their own package together or whatever that is. So you could think about it and dwell on it for years but until you get it live you're not going to really know which bit of it is going to work. So I think you don't waste time, like, and focus it.

So it was gifts for new mums, and I'm glad that gave it real purpose rather than going, oh, it's just gifts. But I think you got to have that focus, but just get going with it. Yeah. Definitely. I suppose, yeah. I'm just trying to picture, because there's a lot of things to have to navigate as well. I think, how do you grow the business?

If you started it in this quite manageable way, were you quite good at delegating and bringing in people and knowing that? Yeah. I always did it probably slightly later than I should have done, because you're holding on to it and you're worried about other costs because I didn't have funding or whatever. But I do know now that every time I let go of it, it allowed the business to grow. So I had girls that used to come in from local college and come and pack boxes in my spare room. I think they'd say, like, is this your actual job? And I'm like, yes, yes, this is my actual job. It's just me packing boxes. And then when I took my brother on and we moved the warehouse to Stroud, and then we

moved to a bigger warehouse just before COVID, which was really, really lucky because we totally boomed in COVID. I was going to say that must have been a time when everything took a different shape. It was like we grew 600% in 2020. 600%? Yeah, it was mad. Wow. And it was like, this is all I dreamed of, but oh God, there's this awful thing happening

in the world. Yeah. So it was really weird. But prior to that, we had grown, it's just one step at a time. And I think a lot of the stories around businesses, like you hear about the businesses that have blown up, or they're a unicorn business, they're turning over however many billion, or... Unicorn, that's like a rare business, it does really well.

I think it's when it- Okay. Yeah, it's without, I think it's, I'm going to sound like an idiot. I think it's when it gets to a billion and possibly without investment or it's- Okay. So it's rare, obviously, but those are the ones you hear about, like Gymshark. I've got the problem with the numbers. Oh, okay.

Or you hear about, you've got the apprentice, or you've got- I watch Dragon's Den, so I'm familiar with Dragon's Den and apprentice. But in that, it's about doing it really quickly, put the money in, you're going to put money in to get it to this level. And actually most businesses, that's not how you, it's like, it's slow incremental growth

that maybe means that you take a salary out of it. And I think the majority of small businesses, which is like five and a half million SMEs in the UK, which contribute like 50% of like the economic GDP and everything, but a lot of them are one or two people, but the majority are sole traders. So we have in our heads that it's about growing and adding more people and it's like, but that most businesses aren't that. So I think that's okay.

You feel like that's the goal, but actually it's okay if you're- I guess also you've got nothing to compare it to. You don't know what it's supposed to look like. No. So you've got to pick your own version of- Exactly, and I think lots of people don't though, because all you've got in your head is,

oh, well, I'm supposed to have a five-year plan, I'm supposed to have an exit strategy, and I'm supposed to, and it's like, actually, that's not how most businesses work. And also life happens, doesn't it? So that's going to impact all of it, all your timings. I had Frank when the business was maybe three or four years old, so I had to hand some bits over and we didn't grow as much that year. And it's like, okay, but I wanted a baby.

So you kind of, and not having investors helps that. So I guess with, you can see that there's a direct correlation between like your hand being very involved with things because you can probably curate it. At that stage, yes, because I didn't have a team, you know, I didn't have much of a team. Whereas now there's a bigger team, so I don't have to, it's not reliant

on me being there every day completely. What does your brother do in the business? He's operations, so he runs the warehouse and the team in Stroud. Cool. Yeah. I like the fact it's also local to where you grew up. That's nice. Oh, it's nice because it means I go back and I can see Mum and Dad, and also I can pop

in for a cup of tea that isn't me turning up with my three. You'll know if you go and stay with people that you turn up with your kids and all of your stuff. And it's really full on and intense. Whereas because I can pop in and have a cup of tea and then go to work for the day, it's, I get a little taste of what it would be like to live a bit closer to my parents, which is really nice. Yeah.

And have a conversation with you. Yeah. Which isn't like, here we are, we're here for the next three days. Exactly. But entertain us. Yeah. Yeah. I work with my brother as well, actually. Hmm. He's in my band.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I like it. Younger brother. Yeah, yeah. Because we have these shared experiences as well, which is really nice. So anything that's happening, we're doing it together, which I really... Yeah. Have you had to have any difficult conversations with him? No, actually. No.

I mean, he's a really good drummer, and I haven't got a flipping clue how to drum, so. That's so handy, isn't it? I can't go, actually, if you tried it. Yeah, yeah. I've got a better idea, actually. We had, one of my older brothers had a pub, so my brother and I had worked together in this pub, so I knew he was a grafter. That was like the main thing.

And we, at times you do have to have difficult conversations, but one day I feel like we'll look back and we're like, oh my God, we did this thing together. And it was like, you'll end a phone call like, yeah, okay, bye, love you. And it's like, that's quite nice to have at work. Yeah. No, I think it's really nice having all that. And I don't mind at all, like, having those sort of blurred edges of like, I suppose if you're doing something that's creative it's a natural thing anyway because your brain... But lots of people say don't they, you shouldn't like don't work with family and everything else but I think it's more about the personalities. Completely about that dynamic and I think there's a lot of rules you think you've got to step into when you're doing lots of things and then

you realize as you get older actually the way I've approached it and me doing it is just it's an option that's completely fine. I don't have to like wear a certain hat or... Well two of my oldest best mates that I went to school with, who my bridesmaids work as well, so they work with Chas in the warehouse. But we speak, it means we speak all the time. And we almost sometimes there'll be two WhatsApps going on, there'll be a work WhatsApp and then they'll be like, oh my god, she did what? Kind of WhatsApps going on. And it's just, again, I think it depends on the personalities, but we've totally managed

to make that work. Yeah, and also sometimes it's hard to see your friends properly when you get older. So I think having this, having that completely like day to day. It's another shared experience that will again when we're old, will be really cool. God, do you remember that? Like one of them had to come, GMTV came down to film something at half five,

they were going to be there at half five in the morning. So I had to get up from here and drive back straight out at like half three. And one of the team who's one of our best mates came in to get set up. And so we're on, Richard Gaysford was on there interviewing us and she's in the background packing boxes and I was like, this is so weird, who would have known that those two 11 year olds that met

would be doing this weird thing like 32 years later. It's really funny. I love it when life does things like that. Yeah. I really like it. I think when I first used your business, I was really struck by the name because it's unusual to a business that has an instruction in the title. Yeah.

But it's making me think that we should probably have the conversation again a little bit because to sort of bring it full circle, like the crux of it, and I think part of the reason it resonates so well is because it comes from like a truth, really. A lived experience that you had of this time where you just felt like, I'm getting all these flowers, I don't have time for this, this doesn't make me feel like people have really understood what is happening in my life right now, and where I'm at and what I'm capable of.

So what is there, this thing that you had, this rage that is also, it sounds like fairly crucial to the dynamic as well of like setting this business and giving a bit of fire to like actually want to make sure that these people have got the right gift to give it the right time. What is a way to help, how can we make it so that we don't pass down this same thing of like trying to take on everything and the mental load and all these things. It's tricky isn't it? Yeah it is but I think we have to try and live it ourselves and not martyr ourselves like and I think when you've got kids as well watching how you because it's funny that Mabel is my only girl and she will be more helpful.

And then sometimes like, is that because I'm passing that on to her or is that, what is that basically? And it's trying to, and picking up with like Buster to say like, he's 13 now. It's like, you are perfectly capable. And actually he's quite good. He won't see the dishwasher and he's emptying and emptying it. But if I'm saying like, right, can you do that? Actually, he was going for a picnic today with his mates and he was cooking like 18

butties to take and I was like, why are you doing all the food? He's like, oh, someone else is bringing crisps. You're like, you idiot. He's taking all the space. But it's quite nice, like a nurturing thing. I was like, okay, this is interesting. I don't know what, like, it's lovely. I think it's trying, first, I think it's lovely. I think it's, I think it's trying, first I think

it's acknowledging it and understanding it that that's what's happening in your relationship if that's happening and if you're okay with it again maybe that's okay because I think you can't flip it the other way so that it's the same rules for everyone because some people sit in a more domestic role and want to but I think if you don't like it and you feel that resentment and rage, then you've got to try and understand it and try and have those conversations. And I think what's really difficult is a lot of women, and I'm saying women and men, because I think that's where it's the biggest issue, don't have that conversation because they fear what the response would be. I had a couple of people on my podcast where there's a lady called

Laura Danger, who's that darn chat, and she talks about it. And Eve Rodsky, who's written a book called Fair Play. And reading their books and watching them and listening to them is really helpful to understand what's happening when these books, something that Laura said was like, the reason that people don't, that they stay stuck in that, well, I'll just do it, is because they fear what happens if you raise it and you say, I need you to do more, we need to be more equal and your partner won't. What's that telling you?

And that's really difficult. And actually, I think that's why the divorce rate is as high as it is. And a lot of women get to a point where they go, do you know what, I'm not doing this anymore. Whereas maybe our parents or the generation before wouldn't have got to that point where they go, do you know what, I'm not doing this anymore. Whereas maybe our parents or the generation before wouldn't have got to that point. They would have just gone, well, this is my role, this is, I suck it up. I don't think now, I think we probably both know loads of people who've got to their forties and gone, fuck this, I'm not doing it. And so it's like, well, if people want to be in relationships, then you're going to have to open up to the idea that you need to do it differently. Yeah.

Which is big, it's massive, like for our generation and the ones to come. Yeah, I think it always seems to come down to like communication and having conversations, even if they're a bit tricky. And also I think for me it was about, yeah, recognizing my role in perpetuating and why it felt important to me to

sort of almost paint myself into corners sometimes. And just doing it all and I think that that's what you kind of go, oh well, it is easier if I do it and it often is. But then you can't, you can't really, well you can, but you have to stay resentful and not move anything on and then we've had tonight actually like talking to people and doing these interviews and stuff and having to read the books has been really helpful because then Doug has also, and you had Dr. Karen Gurney, who's brilliant, but she talks about it as well.

And it's like, because it infiltrates everything. So having like a healthy relationship, if you're feeling really resentful and like you're stuck in this drudgery and that your partner isn't, it's impossible. It's really hard. Yeah. And you're so right when you said things, they just fester. They don't actually go away. If you don't deal with them, they just bubble up somewhere else. And it could be that it's when your kids leave home and then it's like a thought because

you can't do it anymore. And actually, if you've got with someone else, probably would have a lot of similar issues. If you haven't worked out what it is, you'll probably have the same thing. Yeah, you'll just create it. Or they all, unless the person you end up with has also been through something similar and they've learnt from it. But I think that's really, I think that, and again, I think that's where, when I say we're guinea pig generation, I think we really are because we are trying to do it so differently. But we don't have the tools.

And even if you look at how society's set up and the school system and the start times and finish times and the fact that schools will probably call mum, right? That is still built around a system that isn't what we're actually trying to live anymore. Definitely. So much of it is so antiquated. I've long had this. I was quite shocked by it, actually, when I first... I was so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,

so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, I've only ever seen female class reps doing, you know, on the WhatsApp who passing on the information and it's bake sale day and it's they need their PE kit day or whatever. And I just put my saying, Oh, wouldn't it be interesting if we had if there are any male reps gasps in the thing. I bet they just thought, Oh, shut up.

I just thought, but why not? Like, why? We do actually have quite a lot of dads. Do you? There's none. I've not in my nine years at primary school, it's all women. Yeah. We have got quite a lot of that actually, which is good. It's quite balanced, I'd say.

That's really good. I don't think, and also I think if you went further out of London, I think it would be even less. It's also my goal to finish primary having never been a class rep. I haven't been a class rep. Do you know what I've said though? I've always said when Frank gets there, that's when I'll really step in and he will. Well I said that when he was really little.

Because I think I thought- You really don't want to do it. And now I'm like, oh, he's going to be the last one there, so I'm going to have to at some point. But no, I don't think- I don't think you have to. No. And do you know what? Like the business is really strict, like just because the economy is really difficult, it's been really stressful.

Eighteen months. I'm like, now what I mentioned, someone was saying about it and I said, oh, they were asking about classroom. I said, I have never done it. And my friend just looked at me, she's like, if you do, I will come down there and rip your phone out of your hand. I was like, yeah, OK, no, it's not. Now's not my time. There's other ways you can contribute as well,

like at the school, there's other things. I went and did a business talk to the year fives, and that was really nice, because I was like, I feel like I can add some value here. That is massive value added. Yeah, but if you go down the same path, that means you've got to go and put on a concert or something. I've DJed.

Have you? We've DJed the school disco. Oh, nice. Well, there you go. So you've done it. There's ways and ways. That's very cool. Yeah.

I'll do that, but not the rep thing. I'd be so rubbish. You'd be like, ah, I was supposed to tell you two days ago. Sorry, everyone. Something happened this morning. I totally rely on the rep messages saying what needs to happen. Me too. Oh, thank you so much, Steph.

It's been absolutely brilliant. I'm actually thinking maybe I should get your mum on. Yeah, God. The gin drinking vicar's wife. Yeah, yeah, swearing. Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much. Thank you.

What a lovely thing to talk to Steph. Thank you. What a lovely thing to talk to Steph. I love the fact she involves her family in her work. It kind of reminds me of me. I work with my brother and my husband, obviously, a lot, and I really like it. And her with her brother helping her out with business, I think it's a really nice thing to do. Plus, it's funny, the idea our involvements with the school when she

did the business talk and I've done the teaching at the disco. That's kind of what happens isn't it? Anyway I've done something quite spectacular since I spoke to you at the beginning of the podcast. I've traveled from Marrakesh to London and now to Dubai. So I speak to you from Dubai. And I'm going to open my balcony door while I'm talking to you. I say balcony, it's not really a balcony. It's like, I don't know, opens out into like a ledge.

I don't know what it is. It is bloody boiling here. It's a funny place, Dubai. It's like got all these amazing aspects of a resort. But then during the day, it's sort all these amazing aspects of a resort, but then during the day it's sort of too hot to be in the sun. I haven't ventured to the pool because the pool's in the sun. We did a gig last night at the Dubai Opera, which is a very beautiful place, and then

tonight, literally night time, I think our lobby call is midnight, the band and I and the crew all fly to Perth. So this time tomorrow pretty much I'll be in Australia. Crazy bit of travel I'm doing at the moment. Last night we played a venue here, my first ever headline show. It was actually really good fun, great crowd, band played really well, everybody dealt very well with their jet lag, all good actually. And today I've sort of done nothing. Richard's gone out very early with some of the rest of the crew to play paddle ball because he's like paddle obsessed and I just haven't got the bug for that.

I haven't tried it, I'm sure I'd like it but I chose a lion and doing a little bit of prep for my eldest boy because he's going on a trip soon on his own bit of solo travel and a mother worries so poor kid he's probably fast asleep back in London and I've been sending him a flurry of messages on whatsapp for like how we can get from the airport to his hostel and that kind of thing. Super helpful, I'm sure he's probably like, I know mum. Yeah so I'm looking forward to joining, take that to Australia in a couple of days for now. What should I do when I'm in Dubai? I might go for a walk, I might enjoy the heat actually. In the shade it's absolutely lovely, you know your

bones and your muscles feel nice and warm. It's actually quite lovely. Let's mind you, so I've been just lying on my bed doing nothing. I'm not going to lie. It was so lovely to speak to Steph. I, as you know, I've got such a soft spot for entrepreneurs and people who set up their own businesses and people who see opportunity and then put in all that graft.

Foie is essentially a very clever idea. It's true. You don't just have to get someone flowers or it's not the only option. You can do so many things with gifts. And I was talking not long ago to my friend Holly Tucker, who started up notthehighstreet.com. And of course for her,

it's all about empowering people who buy the gifts. And is like a love language isn't it you you want to give them to people when you're thinking of them for something happy for something sad or just because anyway next week another lovely guest is coming your way I cannot remember the top my who I've decided is coming out next but I know it's someone good and um what else has been going on had the new music video come out on Friday for Freedom of the Night it's a sequel to Murder on the Dancefloor which I have to say quarter of a century on is such a fun thing to do including Colin who played the judge in the original video come back to judge me for another dance competition only this time it's my my fictional daughter played by a brilliant little girl called Hattie uh invented into a dance competition with all these other amazing kids incredible dancing and I can see she's not going to win so mama steps in I'm back to my evil

conniving ways and don't I just love it. And I'm really excited. Thank you for all the kind messages about Freedom of the Night. It couldn't be better. I've had such an incredible response and I'm super happy. And it really does mean a lot to me. I can't tell you what it's like when you kind of beave away in the studio and you're excited about stuff and then you release it into the world. It's always quite nerve-racking so thanks for its warm reception and if you're coming to the gigs with us in we'll take that in Australia I'll see you soon if you're coming to Florida or Atlanta I'll see in a couple of weeks going to Mexico festival I'll

see you then and otherwise I'll be back in Blighty before I know it. All right lots of love to you have a brilliant week thank you Steph thank you Claire Jones for producing, Richard for editing, Ella May for the beautiful artwork and you for your ears. Take care, bye bye. As As women, our life stages come with unique risk factors, like when our estrogen levels drop during menopause, causing the risk of heart disease to go up. Know your risks. Visit heartandstroke.ca. We get it. Life gets busy. Luckily, with Peloton Tread,

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