Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 137: Holly McNish

Episode Date: November 4, 2024

Hollie McNish is a poet who tours the country performing her poems. She says the whole of the UK is full of amazing theatres and bookshops.I love Hollie's writing, the way she looks at motherhood, and how she always stand up for her small person, which I feel is empowering for them both. I was delighted when she offered to read one of my favourite poems of hers during our chat.Hollie told me how she books her own gigs, which impresses me a lot. She said that she loves travelling around Britain performing her poetry, and how her 12 year old daughter often comes along to her gigs. Most of the time this has worked well, but of course we had to compare notes on a couple of the times when taking our children to live gigs has gone spectacularly wrong...! Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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I am not a KGB agent. Listen to Canada Land, wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexta and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years. So I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing. It can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions.

I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Greetings from Adelaide my loves. How are you? I speak to you from a very sunny Adelaide. It's my first time here. I've just come here from Perth, which is also my first time there. I'm on the road with Take That at the moment. So I did a gig in Marrakesh, then I flew to Dubai, did a gig there. Then joined Take That here in Australia. I've got another 10 days with them, so we've got an Adelaide winery here tomorrow night. I know, exciting. So that might be pretty fun. And then we fly from here to Melbourne,

then we do Sydney, then Brisbane. That's my next few days. But it's so lovely exploring and let me tell you, I'm in trouble. I tell you why I'm in trouble. There's loads of good vintage here. So I'm back at the hotel, slightly unexpectedly. I went out for a walk. I was like, I'm going to go around some vintage shops, went into one, bought a dress and a shirt and I was like right I'm gonna need to drop them off. That's only the first shop. Also everybody's so nice and everybody seems to know everybody. When I was in Perth I bought some fridge magnets by a local artist. I then came here, spotted some stickers by the same artist in the vintage shop. I said to the woman oh I just bought some fridge magnets by the artist she went oh that's my friend everybody knows everybody oh that's my perception anyway

I like it Australia the village I'm digging it so yeah it's beautiful weather here not quite as hot as Perth. Perth was sort of 33 34 degrees very very hot here's a bit more like 22, 23. So what we'd recognise by Canberra is the height of summer. Gorgeous, gorgeous blue sky. We got here yesterday, which was Halloween. I felt very far from home, if I'm honest, but then I bumped into a couple of Ghostbusters here in the hotel. It made me feel a bit closer to home because my two smallest, Mickey and Jessie, went out trick-or-treating dressed as Ghostbusters so it made me feel a bit better. I don't know. Ghostbusters clan. It made me feel less homesick. Yeah I'm

not even a week in and I'm already really missing the kids, the kids, the kittens, even my mug. I know that sounds weird but I miss the mug that I make my tea. Actually I miss tea. Anyway it'll be alright. I've got another two and a half weeks away and I'm going to just count it down in halves I think. So we'll get through it. It's all good and it is lots of fun and it's a one-off right. But I think I've said it to you before this is my longest trip away from the kids since I became a mum and also when I get back my eldest will be away he's going traveling by himself for a couple of weeks so yeah I won't see him for a month what is going on but anyway this week's guest is a lovely lovely

guest and actually we did speak a little bit about touring but she often takes a small person with her my guest this week is Holly McNish she's a fantastic poet and I became introduced to her through Instagram. I think it was a suggested post actually, some of her poetry and it just really resonated with me and in fact she's done a lot of poems about motherhood. She is a mother of a daughter who's 12, and she wrote a whole poetry book, well, poetry memoir, sort of diary entries of early motherhood when she had a daughter, and that's called Nobody Told Me, and there's some beautiful poetry in that. And then later on she's brought a book called Lobster, and you will hear at the end of our

conversation she does actually do me the absolute beautiful thing of reading aloud one of her for our book called Lobster. And you will hear at the end of our conversation, she does actually do me the absolute beautiful thing of reading aloud one of her poems, which is the first time I think someone sat opposite me and read a poem like that for many, many years. And it's pretty electrifying actually, it's special. And her poetry is great. And I like the fact that in a lot of her poems,

she really sticks up for the individuality and first time aroundness of your small person because we have a lot of shorthand don't we for new motherhood, new parenthood, new people and a lot of it's helpful, you know, communal experience that we're all entering into that other people have been to before. So you can have this sort of universal truth aspect. But at the heart of raising a small person, there's a newness. It's the first time you've been a parent or been raising someone, it's the first time they've existed.

So I think it's good to kind of recalibrate that sometimes because sometimes in the well intentions sweeping up of, So I think it's good to kind of recalibrate that sometimes because sometimes in the well intention sweeping up of, you know, the way we'll talk about these, you know, sweeping generalizations, you can sometimes use, lose the nuance of individuality and rebellion against those expectations, against those stereotypes. So I really liked that because I remember feeling like that when I had Sunny.

Yes, there was a stepping into a, you know, a welcome, open armed group of people who say, yes, we've raised people, let us pass on our wisdom. But also, he was the first person to exist like him. I was the first time of being a mother to him. So at the heart of all this individuality and that's that's to be celebrated I think. Yeah so I loved Holly's poetry that's what really struck me and she read a poem that really sums a

lot of that up for me and I just really liked her as well. She's interesting, she's creative, she's written some incredible poems, but also I love the way she just scooped up her daughter and took her on the road with her, sometimes doing readings with her daughter crying down the front that she will share with us. So yeah, if you're new to Holly's work,

go and check out more of her poetry, and if you're not, then you'll know what I'm talking about with all of this. So yeah, while we are listening back, I'm actually gonna go for a bit more of her poetry and if you're not then you'll know what I'm talking about with all of this. So yeah, while we are listening back I'm actually going to go for a bit more of a wander because the Lady in the Last Vintage I went to has also tipped me off for about a few other places. Just right. You know I've got a problem with this guys. The thing is you never see it again and also I've got to say the exchange rate is quite good. So I've spent, the maximum I've spent since I arrived in Australia

is 80 pounds on a 60s dress, everything else has been 30 pounds or under. So I bought three shirts so far and another dress and they're all cheap. I'm telling you, it's inexpensive stuff. So you know, yes it's a habit but it's kind of like not crazy crazy one. It's not like I'm into designer goods here guys. And anyway I don't know what I'm telling you. I'm basically just trying to justify it to myself. Right. Wish me luck with the shopping. Tell me to go easy. And here's Holly and I with our lovely conversation. Oh, word to the wise. When we started recording, as absolute luck would have it, there was some, I don't know, roadworks or tree chopping down that started literally as absolute luck would have it. There was some, I don't know, roadworks or tree chopping down that started literally as we pressed record. I

mean it was comedy, we both laughed about it. It ended up not being as noisy as we thought. My lovely producer Claire went outside to say, do you mind not doing that for a while? And they went, oh don't worry, it'll only be an hour, which is of course exactly how long we chatted for. So sorry about the slight droning in the background but it does stop after a while and it's actually not that bad. All right, you have been warned, so have I, see you in a bit. ["Spring Day in the City"]

Well, we've started off giggling, because literally as we came in to sit down and chat, they've started some road works outside, which is actually perfect. And Claire's gone to ask them how long they are planning on doing it. It's pretty much exactly as long as I'm hoping we will chat for. So it's perfect. It's going to be our little soundtrack, little drill. It's typical. It's a really ludicrous time.

Yeah, it's all right. It's like a background of working. Yeah. Exactly. It's like cogs turning. Exactly, it's going to feel like a sort of metaphorical symbolism of the internal hum of all the things we carry. It was actually set up on purpose. So before we start recording you, talking a little bit about your touring life. So at the moment, the way you're working is doing... Do you like just sprinkle your gigs throughout the year?

Is that how you tend to do things? Yeah, normally so when a book comes out, I'll do like a Week or this year now my daughter was 13 this year. I did them I did like two weeks of sort of solid show So that was the most I think I've ever done in one bit But normally I do about two a week and then take a couple of months off so basically do gigs the days that my daughter's at her dad's and everyone thinks Wednesdays and Thursdays are just like really good for poetry, but it's got nothing to do with that. I like that.

The days of the poetry days. Yeah, just really good for childcare and then the rest of them. I quite like it. I organize all my own tours. Yeah, I was reading that but that's unusual. Yeah, and it's quite a lot, but it's just me, I guess, most of the time. So it's not like I've got other people to sort of juggle around. And I love it. I've got quite a nice circuit now, and there are times that I'll take my daughter in half term and stuff. I'll do certain tours. So I always go to like, from Cornwall to sort of Bristol, and then do a kind of day of a

gig, day off or an afternoon, like go and see stuff and I'm doing that this year. In North Wales I've booked a tour with just a few gigs all based around there's like all these zip parks in North Wales. So I found one venue which is like right next to a go-karting center. Amazing. So it's like go-karting in the day doing that and then there's these zip wires in quarries with like trampolining in them. So yeah, that's not normal, but just in the holidays I'll try and do that.

Otherwise it's like trying to book gigs where I've got friends that I wouldn't see otherwise or go and stay with family. But yeah, it's a lot of juggling. Well, I think, yeah, I wanted to sort of emphasize really that that is a really unusual setup to book your own gigs. I mean I wouldn't dream of booking a tour for myself because of all the work that goes into it and I think it's super impressive you do it and it must give you a level of autonomy over what you're doing.

But it sounds like it's very married as well to working into what works for you and your daughter. Yeah, I think so. I mean, obviously this, it would be harder I think to organize your tour. I think so. I mean, obviously, it would be harder, I think, to organize your daughter. It's not such a spectacular show on stage. It's just me with a book and one microphone. Every time I go to a venue and the tech person's there, they're always like, so what do you need? And I was like, just a microphone.

And they're like, that's it. And then the sound check's like a minute and then they love me. It's really nice. But yeah they're like, that's it. And then the sound check's like a minute and then they love me, it's really nice. But yeah, it is a lot of work, but I had a tour company for like a year when my kid was about five that asked me to do it. I didn't really know, totally had to do it myself and I was doing mainly sort of a lot of gigs

with other people and kind of poetry nights. And they did it, but it was just so much back and forth. I was like, oh, I can't do that day because like my daughter's got a football match. So it was I feel like it was twice as much work and yeah there's some venues I just know are really good to take a kid to and now a teenager and yeah I just really like it but it takes about two months I'd say to organize to organize the. And then I organize it enough and then leave dates so that if people want to approach me, then I can still do other things.

Well, I think it's really impressive and I like the way it gives you a lot of sort of control over how it all shapes. And also the contact, you're building relationships. And so much about that touring life is about those relationships. Yeah, and the money. Yeah, that the money. That's true. Yeah, it's pretty fair. Like, it is also the idea of, I don't know, giving 20% of fees away when I realized people

were just calling up a theatre. And I know that's not the same for a lot of tour companies, but with poetry, it's not such a big thing. It's really just book in the theaters. And the bookshops as well, I love that. Like I don't, a lot of people do gigs in bookshops, but they're mainly unpaid, so it's mainly about selling the book, so I'd starve if I did that.

But asking bookshops to sell at gigs, it means I can find all the local little bookshops. It's so nice though, I don't know if you find that. Like the places I get to go to, like the UK I know so well now and I never really did before and there's just the whole of the UK is full of all these amazing little bookshops and theatres and I love it. Yeah, it feels really wholesome and like a really good connection with people as well. Yeah.

It's quite a pure sort of exchange, isn't it? Yeah, it's really nice. And people have been so lovely. Like there's one place in Glasgow, the Oranmore, that I love. I love Oranmore. It's so nice, isn't it? I've done a couple gigs there, it's beautiful.

Oh, it's beautiful. And the gospel works there. I live in church. Yeah. Yeah, and it's got a lot of Alistair Gray, like painting, like the upstairs of it, it's just so beautifully painted, the ceiling. But he, I did like two gigs there over two years and then the guy that booked me or did

the bookings like sent me my invoice back and said oh we've changed your guarantee and we've changed this because you've done it for two years so you should really raise this percentage and so people have just been like helping. That's great. Really nice. There's a lot of good people I mean I I suppose those sort of grassroots venues as well. Yeah. They sort of deal on the honesty of that really.

Yeah, it's really lovely. Yeah. And it works for them to have good relationships with people that come and they know what to expect and they know it's going to work and it all functions well and it feels good. But I was thinking about the nature of what you do versus other world. Firstly, touring as a musician but also I suppose a similar setup would be a touring stand-up if you're doing comedy but with poetry you're often dealing with these very intense and personal

relation you know emotions that you've poured into your work so how do you deal with the headspace of that when you're traveling around on your own and the sort of switch from before on stage and off? Yeah, so I often, to be fair, I often do gigs with friends. I do a lot of gigs with my boyfriend, like a lot of, I always, normally always ask someone to do the support and it's normally someone that I know. Well that makes a massive difference.

Yeah, it's really nice. I think I'm sort of used to it a little bit now. And if I'm feeling like I can change what I do at each gig, so if I really felt like I wouldn't want to talk about something at a certain gig, I think I would just skip some of those poems. I think most stuff I'm alright with sharing and I feel like, even though I share a lot, the books are full of stuff to do with shame and embarrassment, sex and motherhood and all sorts, but I don't feel like I share really personal details. So I've

taken out a lot of them were diaries before they were published, but I've taken out, I'm really funny about things that I'm alright sharing and not alright sharing. So obviously I've taken out my daughter's name out of everything. I've taken out like favorite toys, there were things about songs that I used to sing to her, like all these little things. Even at the start of one of my books there's a lot about grief and losing my grandparents and a friend. But the bit about my grandma, it talks about watching her funeral on Livestream because it was during COVID, which was totally crap. But the thing that I kept editing in it was I kept changing what I was wearing and what

I was drinking. There's a thing in it about, well, do I have to wear black to a funeral if there's no one else here? And then in the book, I lie quite a lot. I'm often called quite honest, and I'm honest, I think, with my feelings. And most of the stuff in the book is, all the stuff is real.

Tiny little things like that I change, because I think I'm so weirdly freaked out by someone actually knowing what I had to drink at my grandma's funeral. Like I really want to save these details that don't make any difference to the writing or don't make any difference to the sentiment. So stuff like that I save to myself. So I feel like I've kind of protected myself just by changing a few little things like

that and the rest of it I'm kind of alright sharing. And after gigs I often do a book signing and people share a lot with me then, which I didn't really realise would happen until I did my first bout of book signings. I think that's quite lovely. It's quite funny as well, like it's a lot of sex that people share with me. So it's not, or like brilliant stories about their grandparents or people that they've lost, which is not...

It's quite positive. Keep changing your facial expression. Oh, we're talking about your grandma. Oh, no, we're back in the bedroom. Oh, fingering. Like it's quite often stuff like that, or if they're with their husband, they'll be like, oh, he's, you know, actually, when this happens, we're really good in our relationship, and he's great with this. And if you could sign this book to him, thanks for all that I got.

Like, there's quite a lot of sharing and it's quite funny. Yeah, I think if my family is at a gig, I think that's sort of the only time sometimes I really don't read certain poems. Yeah, but I also totally get the idea of changing those little details to protect yourself, because as you say, it doesn't change the meaning of what you're putting across and what your intention was. But it just puts a little veil

that's probably quite important for your sense of self. And also once those things are out the box, I mean, I've always had a bit of a fascination with what people do feel compelled to share with people. Yeah it is fascinating. It is, and it's really bespoke, you know, and for some people the things I've shared would be way too much and for other people they've gone much further and it's a very like personal relationship isn't it?

Isn't it? With those boundaries. Yes and they're like quite often in like if I workshops and stuff, I don't do them that much, but quite often people that are writing poetry and maybe want to publish or want to read it out to someone, they're like, but how do you get over the idea when you feel really sick about sharing something, like you've written something, it's like, well, don't. Just, you're allowed to keep it to yourself. Like if you want to.

But sometimes I feel like people feel like they have to. I've got loads of stuff that I write and I would never share. And actually when I moved house I deleted loads of old poems off my computer and I threw away loads of poems. So gone. Gone. Because I got really worried. I think from having gone through a lot of my grand stuff after she died, I had this

sudden panic about my daughter having to do that, or someone having to go through poems I'd written sort of as a diary. Or my partner was asked by a museum in Scotland, Scotland, they collect archives of people, not like people that are living and then have archives of some of their emails now, or letters, or poems. And I thought, I don't want that. I don't want people, they might do that and go through stuff and take poems that are half written. Yeah, so I had a really nice two days of reading them. It wasn't everything, like there were lots of, I've got all my diaries, teenage diaries and stuff and things I've written as a kid, but just certain things if I'd written about

family or yeah, just stuff. I just got rid of it. I guess it's part of a process, isn't it? Because you're right back home, but that might take you to what you do next. Yeah, exactly. And there's enough, like the books are big, like there's enough in there if someone wants to read like my thoughts on anything really. I guess the flip of that sort of careful curation of what you're putting out there,

the flip of it I would imagine is that sometimes poetry can be like this superpower where emotions that normally you wouldn't tap into, you can put in quite an undiluted space and give real power to. Yeah, and I think that's why I keep sharing, like a lot more than I had intended to when I first started out. Like I put loads of stuff on Instagram,

on all the social media, like I know there's issues with it, but I really love it. I just think it's an amazing way to reach people and set up communities and I think it's from having feedback on that that's made me realize I don't really know what people are going through and I don't know what the effects of sharing certain things are. Like I had a poem about breastfeeding that got shared so much and it was about being embarrassed to breastfeed in public when I was like I had my kid at 27 and I didn't include it in like I did this wee album and then I did my first book and

I didn't include it in either of them because I just thought it was still thought it was only me and my daughter was like two and then one person I'd read it a gig and one person asked me to put it online and it was, you know, it was like millions of people and all these comments talking about how they did the same or that, oh God, I haven't, you know, I've been sitting in lose. And I just thought, I don't know, I don't know which of my, I don't know what I'm writing about will be helpful or not. It's not all about that. Sometimes, you know, it's just like

love kind of crafting a poem but so now I think I just sort of share just more than I would have. Yeah and I guess along the way you're also finding your feet in terms of setting out your store of what your poetry represents and what you're hoping to sort of, chipping away at something, isn't it? Yeah. Like building. Totally. And also just do it for, like I love writing. I think I sometimes forget that when there's,

like I've had quite a lot of, you know, criticism. Or not even, like criticism's nice, like you learn from it, but a lot of kind of just sort of laughing at you or talking about how terrible your poetry is or what's happened to modern poetry or this is disgusting, or this is just crap. Like that sort of thing. And I think just for a little while when that stuff happens it was making me forget that I

just enjoyed it. And people sort of write, you know, why is she writing? This isn't good. These old poets would be turning in their grave at the sight of all this you know rubbish writing and I think it took a few years for me to just be like it's not you know I'm not doing this to prove anything I just I've loved doing this since I was a kid. Well I guess as well that taps into the sort of history of poetry and the domain and the space it would occupy and I suppose for centuries if women were writing poetry it was okay if so long as it was about like love and heartache and flowers and things like that. Yeah absolutely and not about like nobody told me was the it was my agent Becky that had seen

that I'd done loads of poems about motherhood and said oh have you got any more and I sent I sent her some about poems, I think, and a few of them had these little diary entries with them. And it was her that said, oh, I think it would be great to put it all in. But I remember it going to loads of publishers and them still saying kind of exactly that. First of all, it was poetry and whatever people say is getting more popular, but it's still at the back of every bookshop down by the toilets. But the fact that it was about parenting, but it wasn't a guide. Once it got to the marketing teams of publishers, they were like,

yeah, it was sort of like, what's the point, where would we put this? It's not a guide. So it was like, who would want to read about motherhood or parenting if it's not a parent? Which, I guess it's always been like that, but it amazes me, like all the things that I've read and the books I've loved. Like I love Christmas Carol, I've never been a ghost. I love, like, we like study war poetry and I love Wilfred Owen and I've never been a soldier.

Like surely that's the whole point of like art is that you experience things that other people do and maybe you don't or things that you have experienced and then you relate to. But I don't like the idea of just reading books about exactly a life like yours is amazing. But it seems to only be with certain themes that that seems to be a problem in marketing. And motherhood has definitely been one of them. Not so much now, I feel like it's really great that it's becoming more open.

There's so much more online, so much more on social media and so many more books. But yeah, it was amazing, the idea of who, why. I remember saying to my mum that there was a guy that had sent me a picture of him on holiday holding nobody told me. Sometimes people put these things up online, which is really nice. And she was like, why is he reading it? It was a young guy,, didn't have a kid. He was about 17, I think.

She was like, oh, you know what? Just, she was totally, but like, why, why is he reading this book about becoming a parent? It's like, yeah, I don't know. I'd like, I've read wizarding books and I know I'm not going to become a wizard. Poetry about parenthood can tap into your own sense of identity or what you want to leave behind, what you've come from. It's like it's a concentric circle, isn't it? And you don't have to... everybody is someone's child and everybody at some point, through some life experience, starts to think about who they are and what they're doing. There's lots of things that can hold up a reflection to ourselves of who we are, what

our values are, what's important. Parenthood is often a big one for people but it doesn't have to be that. So maybe that guy was experiencing some of that. And it is fascinating. It's amazing. It's mocked as being how boring if people know, parenting or they're talking about children. But like, it's unbelievable. The more I think about it, I've only had one kid. But even now, thinking about being pregnant and thinking about, like, I didn't really know much when

I was actually pregnant. And I got asked to read at quite a lot of midwifery conferences and like nursing conferences and stuff. So I've learned like loads more about the body. It's like oh like it's amazing this I mean everything about the body is amazing but yeah sort of thinking back to it and watching a child grow in like seems like triple speed compared to how you grow as an adult. Yeah. It's fascinating, all of it. It is. And I guess there's so much of it that's right in that present moment.

You're never more, like, aware of the time when you're with that small person. Totally. The days can stretch open and you see all these little details there that weren't, yeah. You know, you hadn't really picked up on before. So what was happening with your career at the time that you had your baby? So I was already doing, like I was writing poetry, but I was working in a sort of like a charity to get young people involved in town planning, which I loved, really liked it.

It was an architecture center, and that got closed down when the government changed. But I was, so I was working in that as like an admin assistant, putting on conferences and stuff and going into primary schools and asking kids what they wanted from local areas. It sounds brilliant, I didn't even know about that incentive.

It was so nice, because like developers, if you're like building a town or building a new center and stuff, they sort of consult with the community, but it's not often kids. I did economics at university and I was obsessed with this guy that said, if you build, he was from Columbia, and he said, if you build cities for children, then they're good for everyone. But if you do it the other way around, they're not good for everyone. And he was so great.

So yeah, I was working there and I was starting to do a few gigs. And then when my daughter was two, I got a Arts Council grant to see if I could make my poems into like a one-person show to take to Edinburgh, which wasn't really something I wanted to do. I really liked writing but the performance side of things was more daunting but that was sort of what you did in spoken word.

So I did like a little, I went to do a first sort of residency for like three days in Batsy Art Centre. My daughter had to come with me and her dad, and then she got ill, so I was there for about half a day. And then we had to go home. And actually in that half a day, I worked with a director and she was asking me to sort of walk across the stage and maybe this could be sort of the hospital area and this could be this.

And I think it took about two hours to realize probably should write it into a book rather than trying to do any sort of acting because even like walking across the stage I was pretty bad at. You forget completely how to walk. Yeah, I don't normally walk. I think they were all like wiggling. And that became nobody told me instead. And then the place I worked for got closed down, so it was sort of choosing whether to try.

I guess I was doing Perch about two days a week at that point, and then the other job, too, and then three days a week when my kid was little. ACAS powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Who is the dad? podcast. Here's a show that we recommend. Who is the dad? For years, a Canadian lab promised people the answer. It's obviously legit. It's a DNA company. But one by one, its prenatal paternity tests gave people the wrong answer.

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They're kind of separate things, but... Because it's two different bits of your head, I would imagine. Yeah, I just like it. I like them all, really. And I like the fact that some people love sitting reading a book other people love watching someone read it to them so I quite like trying to cover all bases like doing a video doing an audiobook with each book that I've done doing the book and then still doing gigs. The gigs also pay like that's what my salary is is doing tours. So the books I get advances for now, but I didn't get an advance for like my first four

books. So they were already like written. I like to write them before I hand them to anyone. And then obviously work on them a lot, but I hate the idea of somebody kind of paying me in advance for something that's not already done. I can't really, yeah, get it in my head. You can get the shape of what you're doing first and then pass it over. It's sort of the point of getting an advance that gives you time to write it,

but I just, the idea that is, I think the idea that it's a job rather than something that I absolutely love would maybe change it a little bit in my head. I suppose that's your relationship with poetry since you were small as well. Yeah, really little. But yeah, so that's when she was about two, I think. I stopped maybe a bit older, maybe four, then I stopped working as an admin assistant and started doing gigs. And am I right that your daughter would come along with you when she was really little to quite a lot of things?

Yeah, all the time. And I didn't realize that was not very common, actually, I don't think, until a few of the other people in Putrid have started having kids now and they don't seem to have their kid with them all the time. But yeah, to all the gigs. She was with me last week on Sunday night doing her homework in Bristol while I was signing books like her sitting there. It's so normal for her now, and it's so nice,

and it's so easy now, but when she was younger, it was hard. Like she used to, I remember I did a, I'm sure it was with Sarah Pascoe actually, and I had to take her with me, and she may have been about four. I think it took away the nerves a little bit of being on stage, because I was just nervous

that she'd need away. Like that was it. Like all the other stuff. I was like, I don't have time to be nervous about the actual gig. And I used to ask them a lot of the solo stuff if they could put the curtains on the theater clothes to about a meter away from me.

And then she'd sit behind the curtain, normally watching a Harry Potter movie. We tried comedy, but then she laughed so loudly sometimes, went to stokes that you could hear it. And I wish I didn't consider, but it was kind of cute. So she would sit there with headphones on, watching Harry Potter, which basically the movie was pretty much the length of my set plus a book side.

So then she'd sit behind it, I'd put my table like to the side of me with a glass of water so that I could turn pretend I was taking the glass of water and check that she was okay. I don't know why in my head, thinking back, that I've really felt like I had to pretend she wasn't there. Like doing everything so that people would still think I was... Because I was mainly reading poems about parenting, but even reading poems about that. The idea of having my kid with me. It's so weird. Well, maybe as well it would be... It's quite a big distraction if suddenly you're looking after your small person on stage. Yeah, or they might think that, yeah.

Yeah. And then they might feel like the spell's a bit broken with the performance because you're suddenly having, they're basically watching you having to deal with her needs. Yeah, that's really true. It's like, I really don't like it when people come onto stage and say that they're like, like feeling tired or like really nervous about it

I used to want to do that like to help people how nervous I was and then I saw someone else do and I was Like oh, I don't want to know that like I don't that's not that's not really part of it. Yeah, I did the worst Yes, I get tired is definitely like awful. I hate Awful. I hear people do it all the time. You're not good. Well, I think in poetry, I don't know if this happens in other art forms as much, but in poetry, quite a lot of people come out and tell you what the feeling you're going to feel for a poem is, and it really, I can't handle it. So they're like, oh yeah. What do you mean? Like, this one's going to make you cry or something?

In a more arrogant, poetry sense, like, oh, this one, like, just be warned, this one is like really, really emotional. It's like, oh, seriously, man, just don't tell people. Sorry. I was going to say, somebody said to me, I had, it's my daughter calls it the gig from hell, but when she was like seven, I had a gig in Hull and it was in the middle of this sort of forest. It was like a national trust seven, I had a gig in Hull and it was in the middle of this sort of forest. It was like a National Trust place, I think.

But it was quite a random location. We left like really early. I always left with two hours, got there two hours early to get pajamas on, have some dinner. If I'm honest, I used to give her a tiny bit of coffee so she'd go to the toilet before a gig, which is quite bad, bad to admit but it seemed to work. Also, catch her awake before she's Harry Potter. Yeah, but we went to one and the car broke down within about three quarters of an hour but I'd left enough time that we got towed, fixed and then I got time to get to the gig

but it was like just got there on time, didn't have time to change, get ready, nothing. I obviously had some other food packed in the car but I sort of like carried her into this little forest bit, got to the place, everyone was already there. I'd been sort of you know keeping in touch with the guy running it to say oh I don't know if I'm going to make it. He was like oh still put it on just in case we've got you know two other poets on. I was like okay. Got there. My daughter was like really tired and I was like, okay, I'm going to go and then she was like, okay. And then I sat her on the front row. It was quite a little room. Sat her on the front row, got on the stage and she was just holding her daddy and crying. And I was like, hi, how can I do poems about how much

I love motherhood? Well, my kid sat there like traumatized. And then I was like, hi, how can I do poems about how much I love motherhood? Well, my kid sat there like traumatized. And then I was like, sorry, just one second, I'm just going to go and my daughter's like, do you want to come up with me? So she's like, yeah. So she stood like hanging onto my leg and I read poems and eventually took the microphone out, sat down and she like fell asleep across my legs. I did a reading for an hour. And then this younger woman, she must have been about 20,

came up to me and she was a drama student and she was like, that was just so amazing and raw. Was that part of it? I was like, was that part of it? Imagine. Wow, that would be next level. Someone asked me if I was actually a mum once. And I was like, yeah, be next level. Someone asked me if I was actually a mum once.

And I was like, yeah, here I am. But, I mean, well, firstly, I've had a similar thing happen where I did a gig and then I think Sonny, my, who's now my eldest, he must have been about five or six and he was just weeping and I had to, I had to pick him up and he just clamped to my front while I was trying to sing on stage. And sometimes you just feel like you're sailing very close to the wind with these things. Very close. But it sounds like you guys, I mean, I'm imagining as well that sometimes if she's there for so many shows and is still with you now, she must have this sort of adult, have had an adult voice from really little of going, Oh, Mum, this is a little bit like that show that we did. Do you remember the one we did about six months ago in New York,

similar dressing room set up or something, just sort of this quite encyclopedic knowledge of venues, formats. Yeah, I think so, she's quite judgmental about like, did a festival, and I don't do that many festivals, did a festival last year, I won't say what one is, but we turned up at the people working there didn't have chairs, so they'd been like standing for hours, people that were like, you know, like signing you in the tent that you go into to get your wristbands and stuff. And she was like, that is terrible, isn't it? That's terrible.

They don't have chairs. Like they've probably been doing that and then they're probably working over there later and they can't sit down. That's like, good. Maybe you should manage festivals when you're older. It's quite an intimidating to a teenager, I would say. I mean, they can cut you a withering. I know, right? Oh, yeah. Come on.

Yeah. My daughter gives me the up and down look quite a lot and then cracks up, but it's got its cuts through me really. It reminds me of being 14 again. Because obviously, you know, the kids can see you in different ways as their childhood evolves and they get into young adulthood. So when she's been with you during the poetry, has it ever, have you ever had to sort of second, think about her, if she's with you, I mean,

I mean, obviously you've got your space when you're writing that you can be selfish about. Yeah, I think about it quite a lot in terms of, like I've never had her listen to me. She once didn't put headphones in when she was like 13 and heard me read a poem called Finger into Ed Sheeran's Shape of You. And then she was like, you've traumatized me for my whole life. I'm never listening to that song ever again. But apart from that, normally she doesn't listen. The thing that I find weirdly the hardest is when I'm doing the book signing next to her. And

she used to draw stuff on the book. And it's really nice to have her with me. She doesn't come that much anymore. It was more that she used to kind of have to a little bit more. But people used to constantly like praise me to her. And I always found that a bit annoying. Not that I feel like kids should be told they're amazing, amazing, amazing only all the time, but just that she sat there and she's like seven. And people used to say to her all the time, oh do you love your mum's poems? Are you really? It was like the wrong way round. So that, I used to really sort of downplay everything because I would have

hated for her to think, I don't know, to feel like she had to live up to something. I don't think she does. We used we used to finish gigs, and I've got a poem about it in the book, but I used to say, oh, you know, soon as I finish, like, whatever you want to play, you know, for the whole night, and, you know, be in hotel rooms, which is always exciting, I think.

And she used to always make me be a dog. So, after, for like two years, after every gig, I'd go back to hotel rooms and if it was like fancy, I'd have the dressing gown thing tied around my neck and it made me a dog or a horse. So it was quite... Yeah, so I'm not sure she was like, oh yeah, wow, you're amazing, ever. Which I think is good.

I think that's healthy too. Yeah. People used to ask her a lot if she liked my poems, which I always thought was quite funny. I was like, oh, she hasn't read them. No, and also you don't really want to be raising a fan, do you? It's like an odd idea. I know, it's a really odd idea.

It is. And that's like, you know, people sometimes say to me about my kids, I would say like, you'd be like, I haven't really asked them and I'm not going to ask them. No. I don't really want them to have an opinion on it. No, me either. And can you imagine if like some people acted quite shocked when I was like, oh, no, I haven't really asked them and I'm not going to ask them. I don't really want them to have an opinion on it. No, me either. And can you imagine if, like some people acted quite shocked when I was like, oh no, I wouldn't want her to read the book.

Like I wouldn't know. Oh, she's 14. She's probably, it's like, yeah, but it's like, I don't, I just don't, she's no interest in doing it and I don't want her to have an interest in it. And I was thinking, yeah, imagine if it was the other way around. If, because a few times they were like, do you like your mum's books? And she'd be like, no. I hate them.

I hate them. I hate poetry. Or she wrote, I hate poetry, while she was watching a gig at a festival. Someone said, oh, your daughter's so well behaved. She just sitting there colouring. I was like, have you seen what she's writing? She's just writing, I hate poetry. Poetry is boring all over the page.

Though she was the other way round. And I had a little kid in there like, oh, I love my mum's poems, I'd be like, this is really weird. Yeah. It would be really odd. And for your sense of yourself, how vital is having that space to write all those emotions? Like, have you ever tried a version of yourself where you're not writing poetry for any length of time? Have you ever tried a version of yourself where you're not writing poetry for any length of time?

I mean, I don't know. I don't think I have really. And you started when you were in single digits, is that right? Yeah, but don't get me wrong, I wasn't writing loads. I was writing a few little poems. I can't really now. I can't read the poems when I was five. And the first poem my mum found when I was five just insulted my whole family and rhymed like twat and cat. I wasn't allowed a cat and then just insulted my family and like rhymed, kind of rhyming couplets. But yeah, I mean I have quite a lot of times I guess when I don't write and then times when I'll do loads and it often depends how busy I am.

But I've never like worried about it I don't really sit down to write a poem It's just kind of part of part of the daily routine Sometimes that things come in my head, but if I don't write for like a few weeks or a month or whatever I don't it's not like I am sitting Yeah, not knowing what I'm doing with myself. When did you start to really explore the world and see other poets?

Can you remember it being around you when you were growing up? No. No. I remember my mum likes poetry a bit. We didn't have many. She likes Ted Hughes' poetry. And when I was little, I had funny poetry books. But I only read about three poems from them.

One was about burping and another one was about, it was like Roger McGoff's pie in my pie poem, which I read over and over again and loved. Apart from that, I didn't really have a lot. I just, yeah, I just always wrote it. And I used to print off song lyrics more than anything and then try and write like my own poem over the rhythm of like Courtney Love's whole music. Lots of things, really like Shakira and I used to try and write to those rhythms and stuff. But it was only when I was about, I think, 25 that I read a poem out to someone and then discovered this world,

which I love so much and had no clue existed. I was just going into a pub, and then at the back of a pub there'd be a mini-theatre, like in London. I remember the first time I went into a pub that had this sort of 40 person, red-velvage head, old theatre in it. And I was like, what is going on? Like just walking down the street not knowing that in some of these venues

is just like basements with people reading poems to each other, but I loved it so much. Yeah, that must be a really powerful feeling to suddenly find this whole world. Yeah, just a whole world that you were sort of doing and not sharing with anyone. I used to read poems to my mum and I used to give my mum poems for Mother's Day and stuff when I was little. But yeah, finding other people that really liked it was so nice.

And also realising that I knew absolutely nothing about people, I think. My mom's a nurse and she always used to tell me not to be miserable with people because she was like, you have no idea what everyone's going through. Every day I see people going through absolute hell and you just would not know. I see in any of them. And I think it's all added to that when I went to a poetry gig. And the first one I went to was in London in a place called Poetry Cafe in Covent Garden. I went there three times before actually going in because I was really intimidated. It's scary,

isn't it? That sort of stuff. Poetry is quite scary. But I went in and there was a guy that just got out of prison and he read a poem about how much he couldn't wait to see how much the roses had grown in his garden. And I remember thinking, like, I wouldn't, like, not in a million years would I? I think I'm not just mental, but I was like, yeah, I wouldn't have ever put that in your head. And then this woman got up, who I guess I judged as being quite a sort of older, posh, shy woman. And she got up and read the most filthy poem about being in waitrose, vegetable aisle,

and this guy being next to her and her just like holding this courgette in her hand and just like imagining doing all this stuff to her. And I was just like, they're like, I don't know people. I don't, I just, yeah, I just don't know what's going on in any of your heads. That'd be quite a good exercise, wouldn't it? Just get everybody, stop what you're doing, write a poem. Yeah, it would be so great. Wouldn't that be amazing?

And if I do, like I don't do many, I guess from time and juggling it as a mom, but there's places that people go like when people go on like cooking holidays or whatever and then they go to write for a week. And I taught a few of them and the first one of that was just eye-opening as well. Just people were there for so many different reasons. Some retired, finally had time while their kids left or, you know, they just got through a divorce or they're just going through a hard time. But yeah, there was one sort of quite not great erotic poem about someone's dog, someone

that was very religious that I wouldn't have expected that from them. Sorry, I'm trying to compile this bad canine erotica. And then there was also a bet on the same course that was like, that's not okay. And then I was like, never in a million years did I think I'd have this conversation on a path of poetry. No, because you mentioned about how people consume poetry. I'm someone that likes to read it. So for me, it's a sort of stillness.

And I've actually, I don't think I've ever been to watch live poetry and I'm thinking when I've seen, obviously with music you have volume and with comedy you have a slightly banter-y, board-y sort of environment. How do you command attention at poetry reading? And are people always, because even at the theater, people sometimes forget that theater is real people rather than just watching telly. So how do you anchor it? So I think it's different for everyone. And I think there's even, I did a gig last week in Bristol

and it was like 10 year anniversary of this organization, Raise the Bar and there were 10 of us I think, five poets and every single performance was so different. It was so great to watch actually because it really depends. With me, I hope and I think I'm just quite kind of chatty. I think I'm quite myself when I'm reading poems. Obviously it's slightly different because in real life I don't just say I'm going to read just poems. So I read them from a book and I just stand at the microphone, I don't move. It makes it sound really boring

for anyone listening. I just like that kind of silence but I like chatting to the audience. Yeah I can see that. I've seen that on your Instagram. Yeah on videos. But then there are other poets that I know who move around the stage a lot more. Like they sometimes sing in the poems, sometimes do sort of audience participation, which I guess is why I don't normally call myself a performance poet because I feel like there are some people that are really skilled in performance, which I guess maybe I am, but it's very different, it's a more sort of toned down I guess. And then like Alice Oswald is a

poet that I love and have read and she talks a lot about nature but the way that she summed up her poetry like that I'm sure there's a lot of themes in the poetry but when she does a reading she like mostly people clap after each poem when I do a poem and I normally say like thanks after the poem to kind of have that happen. Whereas a lot of the certain poetry gigs that's a thing that is not done. So you are not meant to clap after the poems. And then at the ones that are a bit more like ruckus or whatever, people like click during the poems if they liked a bit and it's much louder.

I can't stand it, but some people like it. Wow. Yeah, I I can't stand it, but some people like it. Click it, yeah, I don't, I just, I can't handle it. People, if they're really like feeling a bit of the poem, then they'll click, but I don't, I don't, yeah, I don't like that. I prefer silencing the poem, but Alice just stands there. She reads the poem really quietly, and then she just waits,

and it's like, there's like five seconds of silence in between each poem. No sound from the audience. And then she just reads the next one. And then the site is like, it's so cool to watch it. It's like a meditation almost. Yeah, I could never, like I could never do that myself because I like the chat. But yeah, so I guess there's loads of, there's loads of different ways that people share.

I did one festival that was a one-to-one festival, and it was just one audience member in each room. I think it was a Battersea Arts Centre. And I had to go in and just read to one person. And I think that was the most terrifying gig I've ever done in my life. Yeah, that was quite hard. It's hard to make jokes when there's just one person. And I find it hard, with me with the venues, I guess with lots of people,

but I really choose the venues based on how they'll make an audience feel as well. There are just some places, aren't there, that are so great for people to come to. Oh, I totally agree with that. The psychology of venues is a massive thing. It's amazing. It makes a massive difference in how people enter the space, how they act within it. Even how they dress for somewhere. Yeah.

I've noticed that. It's great. Great, but it's great to be able to choose, I guess. I think poetry's frying in. Loads of people haven't been to a poetry gig before and they don't know. Like I do loads of things before gigs, videos saying like, you can come on your own, it's fine.

I won't ask you to do anything because I think it's quite, yeah, well there's a lot of people that come to my gigs and say they haven't, I guess, been to Live Poetry before and didn't know what to expect and certain venues I've been in, if it doesn't have a bar that's quite a big no-no, even not talking about alcohol but just it not having that feel of like a night out. Yeah, the punctuation of what the office offers. Makes a difference. Yeah. And if the seats are uncomfortable, and if it's too light, like I always like the audience in the dark, because there's quite a lot of stuff that I don't think people feel comfortable laughing at as much, if they can see the people they've come with.

I'm thinking about like most people's relationship with poetry and when people often turn to it, and when they might write it, is when they go through something fairly seismic. So it might be when they want to express their love for someone. Sometimes people, I don't know if you watch Love is Blind, but they quite often do that. I have, yeah. Or it might be grief is a big one I think because suddenly you just want to condense in something.

So the idea of being in a communal space where you might be confronted by these big emotions in this very diluted thing is quite, you worry what it's going to bring to the surface of yourself even if that's not what you think you're bringing to it. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, grief is, I think grief is the main place for poetry in our society really and weddings. Or love, I should say really. Love, like you say. Yeah, I've seen the poems on those programs.

I thought, I wonder if I could get a job like doing the workshops, yeah, helping them to write the poems. I think it was Bad Boyfriends was the last thing I watched that had, that had a bit of poetry on there, on one of it. But it's great. I really like seeing it. I like seeing it everywhere. I think there's poetry in so many places that we don't think. There's a lot in adverts to try and make us buy stuff. And the beauty of language. Just language is so extraordinary, isn't it? Yeah, it's gorgeous. When you're small, you have that joy of words and saying things and exploring it all.

And then sometimes you can kind of lose that. So being able to just indulge all of that. I mean, it's just a really cliche question I know, but do you encourage your daughter to have a relationship with poetry for herself? Not that she might do it for a living, but just to have that space to explore emotions. Yeah, maybe not poetry so much.

I mean, I do. Like, I made her watch the show in Bristol last week, which I've never done before. Oh, really? Because I just thought, because it's normally like me and one other person and she can do what she wants backstage and it's hard enough sort of hanging around all the time.

I say that, it's hard enough hanging around without a force and also watch poetry. That's a terrible thing to say as someone that is that's their whole life. I think it's more through music that I love like all our car journeys she puts on the music and then I can request things every now and again but like it's very lyrical a lot of the music like I guess Lady Leesha who I was saying I'm doing it gig beside on on this Sunday and just the words there's so many words a lot of the rap music or grime or just lots like Otis Redding we were listening to the other day and Tina Turner and just I just just love music with lyrics that are slightly different it's quite

nice isn't it? Yeah. I'm not just saying this but like yours like there's just it's not yeah all the same or whoever it is we're listening to I think I love quite a lot of music so we talk about lyrics quite a lot which I think is poetry., and that's a good meeting of all of that, isn't it? Because that escapism and putting all your... I mean, I remember when I had that thing when I was a teenager and suddenly music was aimed at me and I felt like, other people feel how I feel. That connection is so primal, isn't it?

It's amazing. And I say that, actually. I've read her a few poems. I've sort of forced her to hear a few poems that I've thought. Because she's... I think because I do it, she's like, I don't like a poem, don't make me hear a poem, like a runs away sort of thing. Plays up to a bit and also really hates it at school. Like her friends come in, I live quite near their school and her friends come around quite a lot and if they've done poetry that day at school then they all say they

hate it and then sort of apologize to me which is really it's really oh just finds it annoying it's like oh why like you're just analyzing it and it's nothing to do it's just the curriculum. That happens I think if when you're at that age and you have to study English language it can sometimes break down just that instinct about how you receive words yeah I think you suddenly have to study English language, it can sometimes break down just that instinct about how you receive words. Yeah. And you suddenly have to go, oh, the nice use of Zygmaw here.

Exactly. The alliteration links back to chapter, whatever. And I think I used to always get lost in thinking, but did the poet intend that or are we just reading that into it? Because some things must just be quite instinctive about how things lock together or the pleasing sensation of how words tessellate and you're not necessarily consciously trying to be clever clogs about it sometimes it's just in that moment that magic of what brings it all together.

I love the word clever clogs by the way I'm really really glad that you've used that in the podcast that I'm in. I really like it. So they, my daughter that's one of the things she says the most she's like I know that you don't do all these things on purpose all the time and so then I've got to say like oh yeah so he did this but he probably didn't like he probably saw all my friends like, did you? Do they? Yeah. I've had things written about my poems when people have studied them. And someone sent me an essay once from like university.

And it was really in depth about the language. And there were certain things that I was like, yeah, actually, it made me feel quite confident. Yeah. Because I think because quite often I get slated for just not thinking about language as much, but I actually do. It was like, oh, the use of this word and how this sentence starts on the new sentence or in Johnman and she's used this.

And I was like, yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah, you're really nice. But then there were loads of other stuff that I was like, not sure if I did do that to intend this. Is it a bit like writing lyrics where if you came to write a poem about the same topic the next day, you'd probably have a completely different angle on it? Yeah. That's crazy, isn't it?

Yeah, it is crazy. I think it's really similar. I mean, I don't know how you do it with music and the performance and everything. Because it seems a lot of people... It's a lot less vulnerable though. I think poetry is so raw. There's nothing you can hide behind and the format can be absolutely... There's so many ways of approaching it. It's such a broad landscape. And one thing I really love about your poetry when you came to talk about motherhood is

the way that you've, you always stand up for your small person. And I think sometimes in a sort of contemporary look at, you know, how you feel to be raising someone, we can sometimes be a little bit, I'm trying to phrase it properly, not give children that space to exist and be themselves and be stood up for. And I love the fact that, I mean, I don't know anything about your daughter really, but I feel I've got this shape of what you wish for her and that power. And I love that. I think it's really empowering for both of you to have that voice.

I think that's really nice. Maybe the nicest thing someone said. Yeah, I just, I think we slag off children a lot, teenagers a lot. And I just mainly, I mainly feel sorry for them. Like not in a, you know, patronizing way. It's hard. Like it's really hard being a kid. I mean, for a lot of kids it's much harder, obviously, than for mine. And as a teenager, I just feel like it's such a difficult time.

And I guess also having travelled now to a few different countries in Europe, there are so many countries that seem to treat teenagers so much better than we do. Like they have actual stuff for them to do. Whereas I feel like as soon as my daughter, especially now, hit 12, you know, we like literally have signs on play parks that say, like, no one under 12 can come in here. Like you're finished. Yeah. To be

allowed into these childhood spaces but but we haven't built anything new for you until you're 18. That's so true. It's a real hinterland isn't it? Yeah it's rubbish and you can't earn money. So somebody was talking the other day about the kid not going to like McDonald's and stuff and actually I know a lot of teenagers, including mine, have started boycotting it now for political reasons. But I was thinking, yeah, but where else welcomes them? Like, really, unless you've got friends with houses that you can come and play in all the time with spare rooms and all that stuff.

If you go into town, you walk around the shops and you go into places that aren't daunting for you and that you can afford. So true. Actually, I think it's just fast food places that don't look at teenagers and say, get out, and can offer you a meal for like four pounds. Whereas everywhere else is quite intimidating or you actually literally legally can't go in them. Or it's too expensive to hang them. Or it's too expensive. Or it's too expensive.

Like it's rubbish and I remember going to France and seeing that they had like these sort of athletics like stads in each sort of town and city and I guess we used to have youth clubs and stuff. I was just thinking like what are you meant to do? Like I see them sort of grappling to like, oh will you have a party for Halloween? Will your parents let you have all this stuff and it's like oh my god there's nothing. You've almost got to just like help hope that they kind of get through those those middle years. Totally and hope that someone can start doing things again. Yeah and like dropping my kid off in a field at some point and I remember

that when I was like it's like how is this safe for this age group? It's like where can you go the field that's where you can go that That's it. Like, there's just nothing. And I just, every, yeah, I think kids are going through so much. And I am also fascinated by them and think they're so funny and that we can learn so much. Like, from toddler age as well. Babies are fascinating, I think, but I found them very hard and obviously tiring and but the toddler age I was like oh that's what makes me happy yeah you're right like I wouldn't copy everything you do because you're also like pushing kids over in the park and stuff I have to teach you like not to do stuff but I was like oh

yeah like I also like jumping and I also like I remember the first time there was a storm and my daughter like begged to go outside. I said, oh yeah, I love running out in the rain, like what have I been doing? And my mom, I remember when I was pregnant, she said, oh I can't wait to eat a fish finger sandwich again. I said, what? And she was like, oh I used to make, you know, fish finger sandwiches and I love them. I was like, why don't you eat one? She was like, oh no, it was like, oh, I used to make, you got fish finger sandwiches, and I love them. I was like, why don't you eat one? She was like, oh no, it's like, I used to make it for the kids.

I was like, mom, you can just eat a fish finger sandwich, you don't have to wait for my kids, like three or whatever, to feed her. But loads of little things like that, I think it really rejigged my brain into what, yeah, what I find happiness in. And also broke my heart when you get to the sort of age eight, nine, and then the social rules start coming in.

And you're like, oh, you can't even go to school without white Nike socks. You can't even wear different socks between the age of like 12 and 18 unless you're really confident. So that is rubbish. And when you mentioned your mom, and so you said she was a nurse. Yeah. unless you're really confident. So that is rubbish. And when you mentioned your mum, and she said she was a nurse, I guess you would have had a very different childhood to your daughters in that your parents would be doing their work in that much more...

I mean, I'm thinking the fact that you have taken your daughter with you on so much of your touring and involved each other's world, it's probably been quite a keystone in your relationship actually. Yeah, it's really nice. I've really enjoyed it. Although, saying that, I used to go to my mum's work every day after school to wait for her to finish work at seven. So I used to walk there after secondary school. I used to walk slowly with my friends and sit down on the pavements

and chat for like two hours, but I loved it. I loved it. And I guess all the things that I feel guilty about with my daughter, I realized that all the things that I loved in my own childhood. So like having to take her to work, I used to feel guilty about, but I used to love going to my mum's work, sitting in the waiting room. They'd like call out my name, and then my mum would come out. Everyone would realise like I was her daughter and not like a mere patient in the place. And then I would go and on her break she'd like sometimes like get me to test asthma stuff, don't know if that's legal, maybe I shouldn't have said

that. But like test my temperature and do my like body mass or all this stuff like things like check my heartbeat. Every single day. Yeah, no, every single day. But I used to sit in the nurse's staff room and eat the biscuits and do my homework there. And I loved seeing her as a nurse as well and seeing patients waiting for her. I thought it was really cool. Yeah. And a couple of times, my dad worked in an office in Slough trading estate and a couple

of times I went there, not as much, but he had a hot chocolate machine that was free, that you just got free hot chocolate and chairs that spun around. And it was like the highlight of the week really. So yeah, if I feel guilty about going off to work, or like leaving my daughter with other people, like I was, you know, left a lot with my mate who lived opposite us in the mornings

because my mom and dad were going to work, or like there was a woman in our village that used to pick me up from school and then I used to, you know, be with her until seven or eight sometimes but I loved it. I loved seeing people other than my parents and this idea that it's somehow, I don't know, neglectful even, it's like they love it when you're not there. You know, not if you're not there all the time or if you're mean. But I loved it. I loved being with my gran rather than my parents or seeing my mum at work. Yeah.

And I really feel guilty about a lot of that stuff. And yeah. Or like leaving my daughter on her own sometimes. Like I dropped her off at a friend's house yesterday and her friend was on her own for like half the day. She was like, oh, I went in to make tea for my my drive and she was like, oh, this is so great. I've had the house to myself for like two hours. I've been putting on music. And I said, oh yeah, I loved it as well.

Yeah. I really loved having a few hours before my like, my mum got back from work. Oh, me too. It's so true. We don't always sort of forget to put ourselves in the equation where you're the young person and actually how it was actually really fun and greater a bit of freedom and also nice to go into environments where you weren't with all your peers, you were in with the grown-ups and with the worky thing and dipping in and oh, it's quite fun. Just see it in a different part of life, frankly really.

Exactly, yeah. Little different, yeah, seeing yourself against a different backdrop. Yeah. Felt pretty good. So with you saying that when your daughter was little and you were like, oh yeah, I like thunderstorms and I like playing with the zip lining, who's the one voting for the zip lining? I think it's equal.

Like, basically there's- You've done it before? You've done all these ones before? No, I've done none of them. Oh wow. I've not really toured in much of Wales before. And it was mainly because people, you know, you must get this all the time, but when you put up a tour and the first person is like, where's Sheffield?

Like, it's never like, oh great, you're touring. Yeah, I know it is. You're not going to Soan's. It's like, oh you hate the north east of England. Exactly. It's always this sort of thing. And I had a lot of like, you never come to Wales, you never come to Wales, you never come to North Wales. So I was like, right, I really want to see that area.

But also, I'd heard about, and I really like caves. Oh, like I really like caves. Not the thing you have to go through small spaces. I don't like anything where, any sort of extremes, but yeah, I don't need more horror in my life, I don't like anything where any sort of extremes, but yeah, I don't need more horror in my life. I don't think. But no, just like, I really like rocks and caves. There was a festival, Festival Number Six, it was in Wales, that I've done a couple of times,

but I sort of veered the car over when I was with my boyfriend, because I saw that there was like a slate mine and went to the slate mine on the way there. Just the sort of underground rock thing and in North Wales there's it's called Bounce Below and I went and visited it because I saw that there was a cave and pulled over and it's this huge underground sort of lit up cave full of trampoline nets. Wow. Yeah it looks amazing and I've never been. So I was like, right, if I can, it's quite far to drive and if I can get a few gigs. And I can do this for a few days in the holidays then.

So I think that was more me. To be fair. Yeah. I approve of it. But it's annoying now that my daughter's older or when she reached about 12, I'd started doing all this fun stuff again, but sort of using her as the excuse.

Taught her to roller skate, you know, went swimming with her each week, could go on the flumes again. Nice. But then when they reached the age where they'd rather do it with their friends, which is an age you want them to reach. I mean, really want to do it, not with you.

Yeah, exactly, and I was like, oh, you just got good at roller skating. So now I'm at this phase where I think, well, I still like it, but I need to go on my own. And I feel like a dick again. It's like, oh, it's so annoying. The rules are so thin, man. You're allowed to cycle, but you're not allowed to scoot.

You know, there's such hatred for adult scooters. People hate, especially guys on a scooter. They take the piss out of them all the time. But a guy on a bike is fine. It's a very thin line of what we deem is all right and what we deem is an absolute loser. True. So yeah.

I do think adults on scooters do look a bit silly though. I do know what I just, but they do look silly. But I just don't care. No, I'm all for that. If you're going to do it, just do it. Just do it. Yeah, but trying to skate, I skate, and there's really good, like, really clear, like, pedestrian roads, like really wide,

bus route sort of thing where I live. And I skate, but in my head I'm like, you're a dickhead, you're a dickhead, and I'm trying to get rid of that, because I love it, I hate walking, I've got short legs, I don't like it, I don't feel safe walking a lot but I do feel safe if I've got like wheels. Is this like the old school, before like the 2-2 or like a rollerblade? So I had a rollerblade and I've just bought new roller skates because I had the same one since I

was 15 and they were like mainly almost square, the wheels were quite dangerous. So I've brought skates because I've got one friend, she's moved back to Switzerland now, but she could roller skate and was going to teach me lots of tricks. Oh, that's cool. But she's not there. You could be a roller skater on FaceTime doing it. Yeah, like do it one, two, I've got another friend that started it and we fell over like three times last time we went out and did it and went to the pub instead.

But I'm still trying. It's just fun. Basically doing things that are fun, I think we are, especially if it's like free and fun. Like even saying free fun makes you sound like you're going to get ridiculed. I'm digging all of this I think the trampolining sounds good, zip lining, the rollerblading, yeah I'm all for it and if I find myself doing a gig near you I will, I've got some roller skates. I did a gig the other day and two people like Kat Francois, this poet, another poet, she was like, I've just been to Paris to try and do that roller skating thing on a Sunday where they open up all the roads just to skaters. She was like, I nearly died because they were actually really fast.

But she's trying to set up at the moment a poetry reading in one of those roller discos so we could have the stage in the middle. Oh, cool. And then people could either skate or just sit. That sounds amazing. Yeah it would be so nice. Yes, I'm really hoping, because all three of us, I was like, I skate but I don't… If that happens, please let me know.

Yeah, I was like, got another one. I know Lou Sanders, a comedian, she skates as well. I would love that. It would be really nice. I think you're correct. I think you've, I think the idea of the touring around lots of free fun is good. I approve of that. You mentioned before we started that you might possibly read a poem.

Oh yeah. Have you got one that you think would be a nice way to... Well, I don't know. What you're in the mood for. I guess you said sometimes you skip over things, you lean towards things. So maybe what mood you're in today for... Yeah. Oh, it's hard to know.

One about a terrible mother, one about how, you know, pram in the hallway is not a bad thing. I actually... There's a couple I really loved of yours that... I mean, before we started, I was saying the one about people saying, oh, just you wait till you get to this stage, that's even worse. Black kids. Yeah.

And how you push back against it. There's another one you did that's a really gentle one about how you wish sometimes that someone was there to mother you and the tucking in and the... Oh yeah. Yeah, I like that one. Oh, I... Maybe it says something about where I'm at in my... My mood at the moment.

My boyfriend was like, oh, that makes me sound really bad. Like, I do do quite a lot of those things. And I was like, yeah, I know. I know just we don't live together. You weren't doing it when I was writing it, so. Yeah, you did. Yeah. I'll read the one if you think it's hard now, because I really hate that idea that it just gets worse and worse.

It's so fucking annoying. Before your lungs had sung in air, still scubbering inside me, as I scratched my life-stretched belly and vomited once more, they laughed, if you think it's hard being pregnant, Holly, wait until the baby's here. And then you were here, and it was hard. I bled, the stitches slowly healed, you smiled as blossom fell on grass, your toes a prayer, I did not sleep. Some days, no more than leak and tap the constant drip of milk and tears your giggles mending each tired night you screamed

again I did not sleep and they laughed if you think it's hard having a baby Holly wait till she can walk and speak and then you spoke and walked and it was hard I held your hand you held mine back your fingers gripped my own like life summer rain turned winter frost you screamed as the first snowflake fell and melted on your hoping palm and you giggled and you wailed and the ladybird strolled past your feet and you screamed in shops and slumped on streets and your fingertips popped bubbles and that, that was enough for you. The world, a mad magician through which I saw each hour anew.

And remembered how to talk to toys, make pee-pul out of forks and spoons, how to stop at every single daisy, how to sob when you said, Mum. And they laughed if you think a toddler's trouble, Holly. Wait till she can run and jump. And you ran, and we ran arm in arm, and you jumped, and we jumped crashing seas, and you skipped, and we skipped to the moon,

and you sprinted sometimes far from me, and they laughed if you think this is tricky, Holly. Wait till she's a teen. And now you are a teen and your eyes do roll and hugs don't come so frequently and your toys get bored and you go out more and you like your friends much more than me. And you close the door to sleep at night

and sigh as I blow kisses through and we sleep in late at weekends now but snow still falls as beautiful. And I can borrow all your jumpers and your chat is much more interesting and your laugh still mends each tired night like the most enthralling magic trick and yes sometimes it's difficult because sometimes it always is and they laughed if you think it's hard now Holly but finally stop listening. Yay! I love that stop listening. Yay!

I love that so much. That was so lovely, Holly. Thank you. That's all right. Thanks for having me. Ah, I feel better. So nice! How special was that? Thank you so much to Holly, who I didn't actually put her on the spot and say please read me one of your poems, but it was such a pleasure to have that. It's

just it's quite unusual in life, isn't it, to really stop dead still and listen to someone in that way. And poetry is a very special space. And it's made me think maybe I should write some more poems. Funny because I was saying to Holly that people can turn to poetry when they are exploring big feelings. And actually, it made me think of my mum, who's written some incredible poems since losing my stepdad four years ago. And I think poetry could just, yeah, give us a space that you don't get from conversation, that you maybe don't get even from music. Sometimes you need that stillness and for the words just to just to take shape and help navigate emotions. Also like all forms of art they give us this you know collective experience don't they? So you hear something you think wow I could not have put it into words like that, but that's exactly how I felt and that's how I feel about Holly's poetry. It puts into words things, emotions, nuances that maybe I would be

stumped to articulate. So thank you to her, thank you for her to come and chat with me. I loved hearing about her touring with her daughter, it was a total joy and actually I rewarded us and producer Claire after I chat with crumpets. Basically that's how I lured Holly. And actually, I rewarded us and producer Claire after I chat with crumpets. Basically, that's how I lured Holly to my house. I said, if you come, would you like some tea or lunch? And she said, just crumpets. And I was like, I am down with crumpets.

Crumpets with just butter, actually. It was very, very good. So yes, I'm about to head back out again into the vintage world. I thought I was going to go out or we'd listen back, but I actually ended up just sitting in the hotel room. It was nice just to be still for a minute. And you know, the shops can wait, or can they? Someone out there might be buying exactly the magic item I've been looking for.

Actually, that's the thing. If anyone out there is like me and is a bit of a vintage addict, do you have the same feeling of me as like, It's like an itch you'll never quite scratch. It's like there's always something out there, but I don't even know what I'm looking for. But I do know that when I walk into a shop and they've got rails and rails of things that excite me, it's the same feeling I used to get

when I was small and I walked into a toy shop. It's like my heart rate increases. I think probably my pupils dilate. I just get a bit like, let's go. Is that okay? Is that healthy? I suppose it could be worse but then for my 12 year old Ray who shares a bedroom with my clothes, he might disagree. He might say enough is enough now mother. And actually my eldest sonny, he thinks that my shopping style is incredibly scattergun. He doesn't get it at all.

He's like, he said, I've never met someone who's got quite such a scattergun approach to dressing. It's true. Sometimes I'll buy something and I've got no idea when I'll wear it or how I'll wear it, but it doesn't seem to matter. I just want to own it. Oh no, I'm analyzing myself. This is terrible.

It's about ownership. What am I looking for? Stop it. Anyway, wherever you are whatever you're up to i hope you have a lovely rest of your day or your night um i'll be back again next week with more more more we've still got a few episodes left in this series i think it's another four three or four oh golly my brain anyway when i speak to you next i'll be in another part of Australia.

In the meantime, take care, lots of love. Thank you for listening. Thanks to Claire for producing, Richard for editing, Ella Mae for the artwork, and you for your ears, as ever. Lots of love, take care, bye bye. Bye bye. I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie

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