Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 139: Lliana Bird

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

Lliana Bird is a writer, broadcaster and co-founder of the charity Choose Love. She describes herself as a butterfly flitting from flower to flower. She was also the longest employed female DJ - for 16 years - at Xfm and then Radio X as it is now called.Lliana and her partner Noel Fielding have two girls, Dali and Iggy, aged 2 and 4, and Lliana told me how their house might be described as over-stimulating by some, with constant music, curated mostly by Noel but increasingly by the children, and with art being created on giant canvases in the kitchen, with paint splats everywhere.Lliana's first children’s book ‘Baboo the unusual Bee’ has just come out in paperback. She revealed that she actually wrote it while breastfeeding and she’s now working on the stage show version of it.As my mum would say: "She's no slouch"!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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CBC News brings the story to you as it happens. Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News. Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bextxter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak

to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing. It can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. Hola! Greetings from Mexico City. I am on my final stop of my round the world trip. It has been quite the week. I had breakfast in Brisbane on Monday morning. Then we flew three flights to go from Brisbane to New Zealand, New Zealand to Houston, Houston to

Fort Lauderdale, landed there Monday night, did gigs Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. So Fort Lauderdale on Tuesday, Orlando on Wednesday, Atlanta on Thursday, Friday, yesterday, flew to Mexico City where I now am and today is a day off the Fortemurray's Corona Capital Festival show where we're headlining one of the stages which is fun and I've got the same morale is pretty good we were all really chuffed with how well the US shows went if If you came along, thank you. I thought we were going to feel absolutely wrecked by the jet lag but we're actually all right. And Mexico City is such a fun place. I haven't been here for over 20 years. Been to Mexico a few times in the interim. It's such a cool place.

Just had a great coffee with my brother because he always knows where to go for coffee. So if I'm speaking especially fast, it's his fault. Erm, yeah. Of course now I'm mooching around on my own, going between vintage shops, which makes me happy. I just bought one thing, a very pale, like a sherbet yellow little bomber jacket. I'm pretty confident that the exchange rate, I got it right, and it's about 40 quid. Fine. I'm really hoping purple, yellow bomber jacket. I'm pretty confident that the exchange rate I got it right is about 40 quid.

I'm really hoping I don't realise later that it was actually 400. So keep your fingers crossed for me with that. Actually, I wouldn't have gone through it if it had been that much. Anyway, I digress. It's been a pretty epic month away. I haven't seen my kids for three weeks. I'm very much looking forward to seeing them. But I was kind of dreading this trip and, oops, sorry, noisy motorbike,

and how long I was going to be away. And I think because I was so worried about it, I was maybe a little bit more mentally prepared for it than I have been for some of my other shorter trips. So even though this has been the longest one I've done in years, it's actually been all right. And all the little, you the little flying between places and everything has kind of broken things up a bit.

So it's actually been pretty good. And I've spoken to the kids absolutely loads and they've been brilliant at home. I'm so impressed with them. They've really coped very well and they've been very sweet. And yeah, I'm ready to be home now. So this is episode nine in the series, the podcast, and this is a guest called Liana Bird.

Now, I've actually known Liana all Bird years. She's known to her friends for yonks. So I met her big sister Tanya when I was 11, and we were at school together, and she was in my class at school, secondary school. So I would have met Liana when she was still in like single figures and she's led a very interesting life and we had such a good conversation. She's a real creative, she's hardworking and she's got stuck into lots of different projects from DJing where she was the longest running female DJ for 16 years at XFM to

writing a children's book which came out last year to being one of the founders of Choose Love the charity. So you know she's worn many different hats and I think for a little while I was a bit worried about that and thought is it okay that I'm doing all these different projects all the time before realizing that actually yes it's totally okay to celebrate being someone that I think she refers to herself as a butterfly, flitting between things but definitely committing to each thing, each project she's doing at that time. Her and her partner Noel Fielding have two little girls, they're called Dahlia and Iggy and they're two and four, so still got very small children in the house Noel of

course our partner also a creative there's comedy and presenting and art so I picture their home as being a very exciting colorful place to be and yeah we had a lovely conversation it was great to talk to Liana and I'm gonna listen back while I wander around the streets of Mexico town. So thanks very much for finding me again here. I've got one final episode next week which I will have recorded by then. See you on the other side. Cheers. So it's lovely to see you, Leanna. And I think full disclosure, we should say we do know each other quite well. We do. From way back.

Yes. I started my secondary school in the same class as your big sister, Tanya, who I've kept in touch with a little bit over the years. So you know what it's like when it's like childhood friends? It's really sort of very crystallized in my mind. And I was telling my mum yesterday that I was seeing you and I said, do you remember Tanya Bird? And she was like, I don't know that name from her. I was like, school. And I was saying all the things you've been up to and I was going to talk to you and she said something like, oh, she's no slouch. I thought that's very true, mom, you summed up well. Because you get up to lots of different things

and clearly massively creative. So when you meet someone new and they say, what do you do, what do you say? It's always a little bit of a loaded question for me because I don't, on the one hand, I don't really want to start listing things because it's a little bit, sort of almost like you're going, you're listing your own accolades and being like,

and then I did this and then I did this, you know, it's a bit smug and I kind of don't want to be coming across too sort of showy offy. But on the other hand, there isn't really a simple answer to it. There was a time when I was on XFM for a very long period of time. And although I was doing a lot of other things, it was very simple then to just say, you know, I'm a broadcaster, I'm a DJ on XFM. That was easy. But since I've left, it is a bit more complicated. I suppose I could say I am,

and this is a term coined by my friend Emma Gannon, multi-hyphen, or my husband calls it a slasher. So you'd be like, I'm a writer slash broadcaster slash co-founder of a charity, you know, just listing all the different things. But yeah, I think interestingly, when people ask you what you do, it's also, I don't know, it's also like a reminder to me, I've thought quite a lot about it, about how people do want to put you in a little box of what you are. And I think, you know, it's kind of like

the label of who you are, right? This is my name, this is my age, and this is what I do. And actually, it's interesting to try and almost move a little bit away from that. And I think young people are doing that more and seeing that, you know, you don't have to be one thing. You can have chapters in your life. And that's definitely something I've done. So, yeah, not a simple question for me to answer. I guess it comes down to what you've got on the horizon

in the here and now, doesn't it? Yeah, definitely. And I suppose it leads to a really interesting life and it sounds like you've been able to sort of follow the momentum of what makes your heart beat faster. Yeah, I had a moment when I was in my mid-20s and I went to, I suppose she was more, I don't want to say necessarily a therapist, it was kind of like a life coach type person.

And I remember going and saying, you know, I feel a bit like there's something wrong with me because I can't focus on one thing and I keep wanting to change and then I'm like, I'm just going to do this and I'm just going to do that. And I keep trying to shift and move. And every time I'm comfortable somewhere and it's kind of going well, I almost feel like this need to move and what's wrong with me? Why aren't I sticking at one thing so I can become great at that? And she said, you know, everyone's so different. And she said, you're being like a butterfly going from the flower to the

flower to the flower and that's who you are. You're a butterfly. Right. And she said, if you tried to stick on the one thing, you'd be like a butterfly that was pinned to a cork board that be just flapping desperately trying to sort of get off and it just wouldn't work. She was like, you can't change who you are and what you are.

And I kind of gave me permission to go, okay, so that's just what I'm meant to do is flutter around doing different things. I love that. That's very positive. It makes complete sense. I mean, from the outside looking at it, it makes complete sense.

And also I think there's a big difference between doing what you do where you have different projects and different things you're doing all the time that keep you stimulated and engaged and someone who feels like they haven't ever really stuck anything else. These are projects you are seeing through. Well I think you also have to get a little bit comfortable with not necessarily becoming like great at one thing because there is is something, you know, in our society that's really celebrated, people who are like at the zenith of their careers and they're extremely successful and well known, whatever field that may be, whether it's the creative ones

or the business world or, you know, science, whatever it might be. And so you have to kind of also, if you're going to flit around and do lots of things, you're not going to, within the short period of time necessarily, suddenly get to this place that someone who's been doing it for 20 years and working really diligently really hardly about that one thing. And you have to be okay with that. And I think that's also to do with your own ego and kind of having a little bit of a look at that and if you're comfortable with that. And also your definition of what success looks like.

Is it earning lots of money? Is it being, you know, acclaimed? Is it being really, really happy? And for me, I just really, really needed that variety in my life to be happy. And I think also, you know, just to acknowledge as well, I got a job really young which was allowing me to do other things during the week because I was doing a radio show Saturdays and Sundays and that was paying me enough to live my life, right? Which meant I had Monday to Fridays to do other stuff Everyone's in that position

Some people have to pay the bills and to survive stick to one thing You know keep keep doing that day in day out to just survive So I was in a really privileged position as well where my radio work meant that I was free to follow my other Passions and ideas in a way that took the pressure off because I didn't need to bring the money in doing that privileged position as well where my radio work meant that I was free to follow my other passions and ideas in a way that took the pressure off because I didn't need to bring the money in doing that. So you know it's easy for me to say oh it's such a nice life and I'm you know able to do this but it's not I know it's not one that everyone can necessarily do even if they wanted to. Also thinking about when you said oh I flutter about doing different things but I think

simultaneously that you've also been, was it the longest employed female DJ at XFM? Yeah. So 16 years was it? I was there for 16 years in total. Just running alongside that. That is true. You know what? It's interesting because radio is the kind of job which is so varied in itself.

So you have different guests and you're interviewing different people. I always tried to make my shows, I know, I brought in science, which was, you know, I'd done a science degree and I was really interested in the world of science and I brought that in. We did a kind of rock and roll science roundup within my Sunday shows and, you know, then you get to do festivals and then you're DJing, so you're going and playing, you know, gigs to people. So I was, I was in a job that in itself was also pretty varied.

I was really lucky to be doing that job because that kept me stimulated. So yeah, I was 16 years, I was there XFM and then Radio X as it is now. But yeah, who knows, maybe that title will be lost at some point, you never know. I don't know, someone's got to put in, they're going to have to be approaching two decades. So... It's true, it's true. Good luck people. I'm not the longest standing DJ though, John

Kennedy was there from the very beginning but obviously the longest standing female DJ. That's cool, there's definitely a TR in that. And what's going on in your world at the moment, what projects have you got on right now? So my debut kids book came out in hardback last year and it's just come out in paperback. Thank you, that was just a couple of weeks ago book came out in hardback last year and it's just come out in paperback. It's so beautiful. Thank you. That was just a couple of weeks ago that came out. It's called Baboo the unusual bee and it's the story of a little bee and he has pink stripes instead of yellow and he loves to dance and so he's very different from the

other bees and he gets bullied for it and no one wants to play with him and he leaves the hive and goes on an adventure and discovers a friend who's equally as different as him in other ways and together they realise that the things that make them different are the things that make them special, unique and incredible. And all the other insects kind of come on this journey with them by the end. And yeah, it's been really amazing. Obviously I've got two children of my own. So being in a world of children's writing and being able to go to children's events and read to kids and go to my own kids' schools as well, it's been really, really lovely.

And I feel like the shift I've gone from the kind of quite intense rock and roll world I was in into being in sort of kids' world now, it's sort of where I was meant to be at this point. So yeah, I'm really happy to be doing that. And then we're turning it into a stage show as well, hopefully. That's very exciting. It's in development now. And your kids are exactly the right age for it as well, I suppose.

They're four and six and I know my five-year-old loves it. So it must be nice to have made a book that actually can be part of their bedtime stories. Yeah, they're so proud of it. They love it and they love showing their friends it when they come round. And I think they really do actually, I read it to them initially, I didn't say this is mama's book, and they really loved it. So I think if the stage show comes to fruition and ends up being on the stage, which fingers crossed,

and have them come to that as well will be like another level of special. But I really hope to keep in this world now for a while. I know we talk about flitting around, but I love writing for kids. I think it's such a magical space and there's so much freedom in there for your imagination. And I work with this incredible illustrator, Aisha Tengis. She's amazing as well.

Which with kids' books particularly is completely the other half of it, isn't it? The way it looks is, you know, that's what they're seeing. They're not reading the words. Yeah, and our publisher, so we're with Rocket Bird, which is an imprint of HarperCollins, and they paired me with Aisha. And I remember, you know, it's quite nerve wracking because you've got an idea in your head of your characters and I knew what Babu was to me. And I was a bit nervous because when I came to them, I'd said, well, I've got ideas for illustrators. And they said, no, no, leave it to us.

And then they sent me Aisha's World. And it's just exactly what I'd hoped for. It was so reminiscent of the kind of yellow submarine Sergeant Pepper's world, you know, which I'd grown up with. My parents were like so many of our parents, Beatles obsessives, and it was just the exactly, really colorful, really graphic, really fun. And so yeah, I was really lucky to be paired up with her. I didn't realize that's how it works.

So they sort of said that's quite a big thing. And also kudos to you for writing a successful kids book. I had a little go at writing a kids book a few years back and I really enjoyed the challenge of it, but I found it really hard to kind of completely stick in that complete continuity of that world, because you've got to have quite a clear idea of who's on the other side of the page, what age they are. So do you think it was directly linked to having children of that age and reading those books with them?

And so I'm really bad at being like very thoughtful and planned and strategic about anything, which is, I mean, I talk about this butterfly fluttering, like the likelihood is it's like this form of ADHD, let's be honest. Because it sounds so romantic. But you just lean into the type of person you are, right? Definitely. And so think if I'd sat down and said, okay, I would like to write a book and it's going to be rhyming and it's going to be for two to six year olds and it's going to be, and here's the story, the beginning, the middle and the end, and now I'm going to try and

write it in rhyme. I don't think I would have done it. I think it would have been like when I was in school and someone tries to give you your essay and your homework and you leave it to the last minute and you just, you know, I would always push back at that kind of coursework-y, homework-y world, and it would feel too much like homework to me. Yeah. So the way I work is just to like let my subconscious do the work and kind of not do anything. So I had this idea of a pink bee that dances for a while.

It was inspired by a friend of mine, which we can talk about later if you like, because I know you know him too. But I was- This friend of yours is a drag queen, that's how I met them. Yeah. So a very beautiful example of someone that's had to find their space in the world

and let their light shine. Absolutely. So he's one of my best friends. We lived together initially. And this was before he was a drag artist,, now known as Glitzy Von Jagger. And he would tell me about his childhood and living in a very small village in the north of England and being very extravagant and flamboyant and liking Spice Girls and liking the colour pink and liking doing ballet and all this stuff and how hard he found that in his environment,

but how the things that kind of made him stand out and therefore be bullied actually and, you know, be othered when he was a child, are the things that today are really celebrated about him. And so I wanted to do that in the world of insects and show kids, you know, right now as a child, it might be tough to be the one that stands out a little bit for whatever the reason that might be, something you like doing, who you are, the way you look. But hang in there, because this might end up being your superpower.

And actually, if you can lean into it and not try and hide it, you'll be celebrated eventually for it, even if it's hard when you're young. So that's kind of was the idea. And I initially wanted to write it as a longer form story. I had an idea to kind of do a Wizard of Oz for insects and it was going to be a longer story but I kind of, it was just sort of

pergolating and then it was during lockdown and I had my second baby and we were all at home as everyone was and I was breastfeeding her one day and I was in a bit of that rut, you know, the routine breastfeed nap, nappy change, burping and of course being in the lockdown as well, being at home, not having that variety that you might have when you have a new baby and you have visitors and you go to the park and all that kind of stuff. And I was feeling a little bit like my brain was sort of collapsing in on itself and I was just, you know, when you've got a newborn, you're not necessarily always thinking very rationally. And I had a moment, I was looking at the milk pump that was across the side of the room

and I was breastfeeding and then pumping in order to get enough milk for the feed. I was looking at this pump with deep hatred because I really love breastfeeding but I hated pumping. I remember just thinking like, is this it? Am I just like a cow on a milk machine? I'm really laughing because I relate. I honestly just was like, I know it sounds mad, but I just thought like this is it for me. Just been reduced.

I just make milk and that's all I do. I can't think. And I was like, well my brain doesn't work anymore. I don't know who I am. I'm nothing. I'm just a milk machine. And I really was sinking into that. And then I just thought, what are you doing? Like come and snap out of it. So whilst I was feeding, I had my arm cradled around my daughter, I just thought, I'm just going to write this, just do it now. And if I don't think about it too much,

it doesn't feel like homework. So I whipped out my phone and I just typed out the story on my notes on my iPhone. And honestly, it just came out in rhyme and it just did it in the duration of that one feed. It just came out. And it probably had been pergolating in there for two years or something, so I'm sure it didn't come from nowhere.

And that's not how everyone would work, but that's how it happened for me and that's generally how I've done my creative work in the past as well, is just sort of wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, and then splurge and it's done and then never look at it again. I actually think that's really wonderful. Firstly, I totally agree with you about the way that your brain can be doing lots of work laying down foundations for things when you're not actually doing it and sitting at a desk with a pen and paper.

You can be making all sorts of connections. And also sometimes with creativity, when the pressure of, you're obviously already feeding your daughter, you were involved in a process of something. So having that pressure off of like this, I think they call it flow, when you're just able to do sort of free form exploration to something. But you're already in the process of doing something else anyway, so something's being achieved

while you're doing that. Well, it's the same with if I want to like do a clean or a tidy, I have to have someone in the room talking to me or I have to be doing something else. Because if someone's there distracting you, it just doesn't, now it's hanging out. Now I just happen to be cleaning, I don't know, it's like a kind of, it's like the obstruction

of it being something monotonous or boring. It's like the constant chase for dopamine. But anyway, I'm sort of going down a route of psychoanalyzing myself. But yeah, there is a definite, you know, must be doing something else in order to do something productive. Well, firstly, I think that's wonderful. Secondly, I'm thinking, I definitely got things done while I was feeding my babies when they were small. But I think it was usually just buying something online. It was probably just shopping or looking at Instagram.

Next time I'm going to try and write a book, I think I might have run out of time for that one. I also think though, you know... Well, there's eBay purchases, it could have been literature. But I also think like there's something slightly toxic about the idea of, you know, when you have a new baby and you are in that newborn bubble and you're being a mother, that, you know, you have to do something else. Because actually, what I wish I had felt at the time was, it's okay to just rest and relax and lean into this.

And at that point, that's not what I was thinking or feeling, and I needed to create and do something to prove something to myself. But actually, it's perfectly great and lovely and probably very advisable to just lean in and just relax. And you know, you're doing a hell of a lot of work. And like you said, you know, you say, oh, you're just feeding, but it's never just feeding. There's a lot of thought and planning and, you know, love that goes into it and its efforts, you know, especially for some people, it's just not an edge, something that just comes natural. You have to really, and I was, you know, the pump and the worrying about the feeds and

is she getting enough milk? And I was at one point weighing my baby after every feed and before to see if she was getting enough milk. I mean, you know, so it was a whole world of work, you know, as a newborn is, as any baby is. And so, yeah, I do think on the one hand, you know, it's fantastic that I had this moment and wrote this book and it started this great journey for me. But on the other hand, I sort of go look at myself then and feel a bit sad that I felt that I couldn't

that I needed to do that. And I couldn't just accept that I was doing a lot of work and I was doing something really, really important at that point that didn't need to prove anything to anyone even myself. Well, I think that's a really thoughtful reflection, actually. I think that's really thoughtful, and that probably touches into a whole wealth of conversation we can have about the expectations of motherhood, what you put on yourself, but also the way your thoughts go

when you can look back and see what was happening, but you just don't feel it in that moment. But if we can whiz back in time a little bit, what was little bit, what were you up to when you had your first baby? Had you always wanted to have children? Yeah, I was extremely maternal from a really young age. And I remember when we would go on holidays, you know, sometimes when you're in a hotel and they've got like the kids club, and I remember I would fake being unwell or fake having a twisted ankle because I wanted to stay and look after the two year olds. So I'd be like an eight year old and I'd be

like, Oh, no, I can't go out with the family today. I, my ankles really sore. I'm just going to stay here. And then I'd go and play in the crash with the little kids. And because I just loved little children always, even when I was a small child myself. So I always did want it. And I wanted to be a mom really, really badly. And I almost wanted it so much that I was almost getting to a point of panicking that it might never happen at quite an early age, really. I think as I was sort of coming towards 30, I was already going like, what if it could never happen to me? And actually, again, like, you know, I wish I could have just let myself off the hook

a little bit, but I was just so afraid that this thing I wanted so much might not be possible for me. And so I really, really wanted a child. And I remember when we decided to have our first child, I was just in such a mad time in my life. I was doing the radio shows Saturdays, Sundays, and then I had a book that was, it stemmed from my podcast I was doing. We'd been given a book offer and I'd signed the contract and I had a book that was, it stemmed from my podcast I was doing. We'd been given a book offer and I'd signed the contract and I had something like four months and we had four months to write 90,000 words.

And it was, you know, it was a pop science book so there had to be a lot of factual research in it as well. So that was already a lot. And then we accidentally co-founded a charity, my friends and I, which became all-encompassing and huge. How do you accidentally co-found a charity just to pick up on that? Well, you start a Just Giving page and you ask people for donations and to show up and the entire community of London, it seems and beyond, decide that they really care about this issue as much as you do and they want to help too.

So this is the now very well known Choose Love charities that we know now. Yeah. And when it began, was it called Help Refugees? Well, it's so funny. Because even before that. Well, I remember because it was myself and my friends, JC and Dawn,

and we were trying to figure out what to call ourselves. Now I look back at, oh, what's happening? I think at one point we were going to call ourselves Good Eggs. One point it was, help us help you or help something like that. And then there was Help Calais. I think initially the first hashtag we used was Help Calais. And then it became Help Refugees later. And then now today it's Choose Love.

But at the time, honestly, we really thought it would be a couple of weeks. We were going to try and get enough clothes and, you know, warm items to take a vanload of goods to Calais. And we were going to drive it over ourselves and try and distribute it to whoever we thought was there. We thought there'd be a charity there to do that which turned out not to be the case and we wanted to raise a thousand pounds. That was really our aim and within the first week I think we had something like seven

storage rooms at Big Yellow full of items. We had hundreds of volunteers showing up to try and help and we had 50,000 pounds within the first week. So we realized then that you know this could be something and that people were desperate to help in a tangible way and also of course then we went to Calais and realized that actually this magical charity we thought would be there wasn't and that there was a desperate need there but people were so, charities were so nervous because it was such a politically heated situation. And so they just were, these people were being abandoned basically. You know, we would turn up and I was walking around and we just, you know,

children and families just living in mud, intense. And you were going, where's the showers? Where's the food distribution? And we found a very, very incredible, but very small grassroots organization called Aboge de Miquart in France. And they were completely overwhelmed and they were just like, you know, help us. And we said, well, we'll do what we can. And we just realized we couldn't walk away from it. And it just from there grew and grew and spiraled and spiraled.

And you know, it really was, you know, we talk about being co-founders, but it was a phenomenal group effort of everyone, the volunteers and just all the way from the grassroots up, really people just were desperate to help. And I think the model of charity at the time as well, you give your money, then you see what happens to it. And we wanted to change that. We really wanted people to be able to see, and directly give what they were giving to us to put it in people's hands.

You give us 20 quid and we will buy a sleeping bag tomorrow and we will give it to someone who needs it tomorrow. And I think people responded well to that. So that spiraled into an incredible journey, but an extremely intense one. And one I probably wasn't in no way prepared for. And you know, I wasn't really sleeping. It was, it was a, and I don't want to make myself the sort of victim of it because really going through that period of time, which was very

intense was, was also rewarding. And people who were living in, you know, refugee camps and suffering with the people who were, you know, really going through it. So what we were doing was nothing, but it still took a toll. And there was a huge amount of pressure not to ever switch off. Because I think we all feel pressure not to switch off from our jobs and our work and phones and all the rest of it make that exacerbated. But in particular, when you feel like people's lives are in your hands, which probably wasn't the case, but you feel that pressure. If I don't respond to this email today, then this person won't get fed, or there'd be

emergency situations. There's a fire that's in the camp, or there's just things that we felt hugely responsible for people, volunteers, and we didn't have structures in place. We didn't have systems in place. I was Googling health and safety warehouses because we hired a warehouse and I was like, what do we need? What if a shelf falls on a volunteer and they get injured or worse? Do we go to jail?

It was just extremely intense. So I was never switching off and I was doing that Monday to Friday plus writing the book then doing the shows on the weekend and it was just too much for my body and I just eventually my body just went you gotta stop. I just started getting really ill and I was waking up every morning covered head to toe in hives like full on hives and I remember initially thinking like am I allergic to the washing powder or something because it looks like just nettle stings and all over and it just kept happening kept happening and then suddenly the next thing happened my face started getting blowing up. I don't know if you've ever seen anyone with a severe peanut allergy when they when they eat it becomes like almost like a cartoon face so I was getting that. I've actually had it once

the hypes and all like my eyelids and my face and yeah so I only had it one episode but I know what it was. Well that was happening all the time and you'll know it's quite scary because when your lips and your face is so swollen as well you know there's always a risk your tongue can swell so I started carrying an EpiPen with me as well and just I knew then that if I didn't stop change something I wouldn't have a child so I had know, and I'm sure many people have this on some level, but I had a very, very clear moment of making a choice. Do you keep doing what you're doing, which is this extremely important and rewarding work as well,

and just keep going and going and going, or do you stop and try and have a family and a child? And for me, the choice was really clear. It was not an easy thing to do, but I knew that I wanted to heal and I wanted to get better and I wanted to have a family and I had to change something. So I changed everything. I basically just changed everything. And I don't want to say I walked away from Choose Love because it wasn't walking away,

but there was already an incredible team there at this point, and this was what they were all meant to be doing with their lives. And they hadn't all accidentally fallen into it. They'd actively chosen this as their dedication, passion for their lives. And they were doing fantastic, and they didn't need me anymore. And I was able to step back initially, and also I dialed down my other work as well and I just went, I'm going to start saying no and putting up boundaries and I'm going to prioritize getting well. And I did and I got rid of what was my symptomatic part of my illness.

I got rid of it and I haven't had it in over nearly seven years now. And I got pregnant and I have my first daughter and it was all worth it. We get it life gets busy. Luckily with Peloton Tread you can still get the challenging workouts you crave. Only have 10 minutes? Take a quick Peloton workout. Want to go all out? Chase down your goals with 20 to 45 minute tread workouts. No matter your goals or time, Palaton has everything you need to become everything you want. Find your push, find your power. Palaton. Visit OnePalaton.ca. Breaking news happens anywhere, anytime. Police have warned the protesters repeatedly, get back. CBC News brings the story to you as it happens.

Hundreds of wildfires are burning. Be the first to know what's going on and what that means for you and for Canadians. This situation has changed very quickly. Helping make sense of the world when it matters most. Stay in the know. CBC News. CBC News. I can see the trajectory of that because while we've been talking, it's clear you're an empath because you've got, when you're talking about your experiences, you've always got the flip of the fact that other people might not have had the same experiences as you. So your brain obviously works in that way. You're thinking about others and your role in things. So when you, I'm just imagining setting up that charity,

opening yourself up to all those stories, all that experience. And it does, when you put yourself in those situations, you can't help but sponge those experiences up and carry that with you. And the idea, the pressure of thinking if I don't respond to these messages, if I don't get this right, there's going to be a direct consequence. And you've obviously, you wanted that transparency with people with their donations, but that means you've got to be in the thick of all of knowing what all the mechanisms are.

So there's no shut off point with that. I also found that like I had to harden myself because you know I remember one time when we were walking through the camp in Calais and I remember sitting and talking to this guy and he was you know sat around his little fire having tea and he was telling me his story and he was from Afghanistan and it was just you know the most unbelievable and sad story and how he was trying to get to his children and his wife. The reasons he was there was all tied in with his work for the British. I felt this, oh gosh, this terrible guilt as well. I remember sitting there and all I wanted to do was sob

and cry. I just thought, how can I be the one sobbing and crying when he's there standing proud and telling me this story and he's not in bits. And actually what I need to do is pull myself together and help. And it was kind of the fire to help. And I kind of, something in my brain shut off at that point where I was like, if I, every time I hear something really sad now, I'm going to start crying and I'm going to become a mess, I can't help. And I really, really want to help.

And you know, we didn't get it right either, you know, looking back at the way we did things, you know, certainly wasn't always right. And actually there were times when I wish right either, you know, looking back at the way we did things, you know, certainly wasn't always right. And actually there were times when I wish we'd, you know, spoken to people in the camps and asked them like, you know, what do you think we should be doing more? Because I think, you know, we came in and we were like, right, we're going to do this. And, you know, the confidence of being, you know, an educated girl from London and thinking you can save the day, you's an element of that too, but I think I had to shut off a lot of the emotional part

of it and that's not necessarily the healthiest thing either. And you have to also switch from being in these really hard situations in a refugee camp with people who are really suffering, like really suffering. And then you come back to London on a train and suddenly you're in a room and people are drinking champagne and you're trying to fundraise and you're just, it is a bit of a... Yeah, the juxtaposition is like... It messes with your head, yeah.

So I definitely shut off a lot of my probably emotional responses at that point while which wasn't the healthiest thing to do either, so yeah. Yeah, but it's a sort of survival mechanism isn't it really? And also, I mean you've already spoken about permission with things and about being who you are, but I think also sometimes you can acknowledge the heaviness in the world and the fact that people have different life experiences and some of those things are very tough and still give yourself, we're human beings, sometimes we're going to moan about something that's inconsequential, it's kind of part of how we function. And it's about

giving yourself the permission as well of that scope. But that being said, we learn from our experiences. I'm sure your perspective has shifted massively since with that experience. But life is still life. So sometimes things are just going to be annoying or it's hard and then you'll go, well, it's not that, but yes, that's part of how humans are. We deal with what's our life, don't we? Absolutely.

And the scale of what's working for us that day. But I mean, just huge congratulations because even though I can see it took a toll with how it was set up, I mean, the proof of pudding is that that's a very successful charity. And I think also calling it Choose Love is a stroke of genius because it just takes, it removes any sort of political stigma or anything. It's just about being a good humanitarian. Yeah, and to give the right credit as well, that's of course Katherine Hamnet who came up with, originally it was Choose Life and then she kind of coined Choose Love and allowed us very kindly from an early stage.

One of the girls I set it up with who's now the CEO, she had a relationship with Catherine via her son and family. And she was very, very kind and generous to allow us to take on the Choose Love name. It's brilliant and it's fed into lots of things. In fact, not long ago, my eldest boy, Sonny, who's around at the moment, he and I designed a t-shirt that was for fundraising for Choose Love, so he's done a little cat t-shirt that we got on Everpress. So, you know, we've been involved with the charity, so lots of positivity actually.

Really, a really wonderful thing, and I think does make people think differently actually. And it's great to be able to act, quickly get involved in something that matters to you and look at how it resonated with people, and people are like, that matters to me. But thinking about you, so you said you changed everything when you had your daughter. And I've heard you talk about their childhood. I want to talk to you a little bit about that because some of what you've said really makes sense to me. I have this theory that households have a kind of a currency, if you like, of what is prized in their household.

So for some, it might be it's quite a sporty family, or it might be quite an academic family. In my family, because Richard and I are both musicians, we think brilliant if you show you've got a little bit of rhythm, if you like singing along to something, if you want to do a dance routine, if you want to stand on a table. Also humor, if you're funny, that is great. I think, obviously, as kids get older, they can bring their own things to the party. If one of them ends up flourishing or loving something, that becomes part of the family. Of course. When they're little, the tone is set by the parents.

Obviously, you and your partner are both creatives and artistic, and that's led you to have to accept that that's what works for you. But I like it because I think some people have very traditional families and then some don't. And you've been in my house. You can see it's quite an arty house. It's gorgeous. I love it. Our house is extremely, I'd say, creative, colourful, fun and chaotic. This is all good stuff to me.

We have things flung everywhere and there's always something quite stimulating going on. Definitely I've come from a very musical family. My grandmother was an amazing pianist and piano teacher and my whole family on my mother's side, music is a huge part of our lives. And then on my husband's side, his family, you know they don't necessarily play the instruments but it's like music for the religion and they are like encyclopedias of every album, band, everything. They're just, it's incredible you know and they worship at the altar of music. So music's a really big part of

our lives. We have lots of instruments out all the time that the kids can just jump on. Sometimes I just sit on the piano and make up songs and we make stories around it and the kids kind of jump around and being fairies and ogres. It's a really integral part of our lives. Every day my husband, whether it's breakfast or when we're doing dinner, he's always curating the music that's coming through the speakers as well, which sometimes I'm like, it is 8.30 in the morning on a Sunday,

are we listening to some serious grunge right now? Is that really the vibe or could we put some silence? It's very familiar to me. And I find it hard to think straight sometimes when Rich is playing really loud music as well. Especially when the kids are talking to you. But you know what, we roll with it. My just turned four year old in particular,

of course the kids want to pick their music too. And I think we have quite successfully indoctrinated them into our taste of music for now. So they do have good requests, but our just turned four year old Iggy, she's very insistent that she gets to have an equal number of songs. So we now do go around the family and pick a song in order.

Oh, that's fun. And then my husband paints at home all the time. so he's got these huge canvases in our kitchen. Our kitchen's got like paint splats everywhere and like, you know, the walls have got paint splats and it's very much like, you know, you can pick up a crayon and draw on the walls if you want in our house. And yeah, humour is big of course as well. My husband's a comedian and you know and we're both massive fans of comedy,

and our little girls, as it happens, are both ridiculously funny. I mean, all children say brilliant things. And of course, as parents, we all find it hilarious. But I honestly just, they crack me up each and every day. I think yesterday was absolutely pouring with rain. It was torrential. And my daughter just looked at the window and went, well, it's a good day for ducks.

And I just thought, yeah, it is, it is a good day for ducks. But yeah, they're funny and they're odd and they're eccentric and we encourage that and love that. And yeah, I think our house is definitely probably overstimulating for some. It's a bit chaotic. Dinner times are like mad house at the zoo. Is that an expression?

Mad time at the zoo, feeding time at the zoo. There we go. Mixed up two expressions there. But it is a bit like that. And we just try and lean into it as much as possible. But I think that's really lovely to hear that because I think we're quite similar. And I think for a little while

I felt a bit self-conscious because you feel like other houses might be a bit more traditional and then, you know, I'm always impressed when families can be a little bit more von Trapp, you know, and everything's a little bit more structured. But I think you have to really recognize where your strengths and weaknesses are as a parent actually. I guess, so were you and Noel together for quite a long time before you had kids? Yeah, so we've been together 15 years now and our oldest is six and then before that we were friends as well, so we were best friends before we got together. That's nice.

So we've been in each other's lives. I didn't know that. Yeah, we've been in each other's lives over, well about 20 years now I'd say. So what was the switch between being friends to romance? Well, it was, I don't know, I think when you're, so my partners have always been my best friends, actually. Like, if I look back to when I was a teenager, I know some people find that really weird,

and they're like, no, no, no, I could never do that, but I always, you know, my best friend was always the person I wanted to spend all my time with, and so when I had a best friend who was a boy, just for me was always a national. Your best friend you can snog. Yeah, why not? Let's just snog as well and see what happens. Well, you know what?

I remember I had one of my really good friends, Melviss, and we were living together. And I remember we were like, we are going to be eternally single because we are too fun together. And we're always laughing. And I don't want to go and have any dates with anyone because all I'm doing is going, I just want to go home and have a laugh with Melvis because she is honestly the funniest woman you'll ever meet. And I was like, you're killing my love life, Melvis. And it is no surprise that when she moved back to Australia, both of us were with our now husbands within about like six months because we were like,

okay, you've given me the room now to like actually want to hang out with other people other than you. But yeah, for me, like if you do get lucky enough to fall in love with your best friend, which is what happened to us, then that's amazing because that is the person you're going to be day in, day out for the rest of your lives. And you know, the romantic side of things will ebb and flow throughout your lives together. But if you've got that core where you just absolutely love each other's company and make each other laugh and can have that shared sense of humor and shared values and just want to spend time together all the time, then I think that will see you through really well.

I think it's lucked out. I couldn't agree more. I think, well, it's the same with Richard and I, we were friends before we started dating and I think I really agree because, as you said, every day is not about the big romantic gestures, sometimes you're just getting by and if you actually like each other, you can get through a lot of stress and the things when you're just delegating and running through lists of what's got to be happening. But if you've got that framework, you're just not trying to take chunks out of each

other. Yeah, and I do remember, because when we were friends, it genuinely never occurred, at the time we were friends, I didn't really think of him in that way at all. So I really, and if someone had ever said, it to me, I would have probably laughed at the time, because it just wasn't in my head. And we both had other relationships,

and it just wasn't at all a consideration. And I think the moment that clicked, is we were both single at the time and I remember I was trying to go on dates with people. I remember I'd be going dates and I'd be doing that thing of slightly watching my clock and going like, I'll go and meet him for a drink after because it'd be more fun. And I was just not having as much fun. And I think I just thought, if I just want to spend all my time with this one person,

maybe, maybe that means something. And yeah, and yeah, that was, that was how it all began, I guess. I suppose the other bit I haven't had is that fact that you were together for a long time before you became parents. So has it been, what's it like when you have to shift into seeing each other in those roles? I think it's, we're both, we're both really childish at heart. And I think we both were living a very extended childhood and teenage-dom into our adulthood.

So we were saying that diplomatically. But you know, we were living quite a rock and roll lifestyle and quite hedonistic lifestyle. And so the shift is, of course, that suddenly you can't live that life and, you know, we didn't want to anyway when we had our kids and you're just trying to shift no longer your own focus and you're living for somebody else's happiness and safety and health. And so we had to both grow up basically. But I think it was the best thing to happen to us because I think that hedonistic lifestyle

and that kind of, I'm not saying people who don't have children live a selfish lifestyle, but for us, we were living where we could just do kind of what we want, we stay out as late as we want, and we didn't have to think of anything else apart from ourselves because our jobs, in some ways, facilitated that, because we both had periods of extremely busy periods

of work, and then also periods where, you know, you didn't have to get up for anything the next morning, so why go to bed at all kind of thing. And it shifted us out of that. And I think what we realized when we had kids is we can still dip into the magic of childhood but through them. And actually that's in a way that's really pure and magical and whimsical and wholesome, but also really inspiring creatively. Yeah.

We get to relive our childhoods, but seeing it through their eyes. And so that's been really, really incredible as well. And yeah, I think definitely, you know, if we go back, we probably would start earlier and have five like you did. It's a lot. I say it's very easy to say that. It's not very easy to do it. I think, yeah. I mean, I do love family life though.

And like you, when I was young, I was always the one with little ones all around me, like Pied Piper with all like little kids. If I was like a, I don't know, family wedding with my parents, I'd sort of seek out all the small ones and just play with them. And I think I've always liked the sort of honest exchange you get with kids and just the way you can really take conversation interesting way or play or any of it really. That really stimulates me. But also I think it's really good ego wise because you're not like suddenly, you know, you're seen as this, you're just someone's mama to them, you know.

Absolutely. And they will keep you in check in many, many ways that probably I needed a little bit. And it was just, I think, you know, for our souls, it was really, really good to have these little people just kind of sort of in your game. Absolutely. I did an interview this morning and someone's like, Oh, so you know your kids, they really impressed their mums all international again. And I'm like, I really hope they've got no opinion about it at all. I'm certainly not going to ask them. I don't want to have fans in my house, that'd just be weird. They don't need to be at all bothered about what I'm getting

at. So it's a very good tonic and you're right, it does keep things in check like that because it's, for Ofji's words, very grounded. I had a moment the other day because I really dialed back my work a lot and I left my radio work because I really wanted to have my weekends back to be with my children more. I feel like I don't want to use the word sacrifice because it was for the right reasons and it was a joyful thing to do, but I definitely decided I wanted to be extremely present for my children while they were so small. Then the other day my little one did a little drawing for her, like her book that she does her like little weekend updates at school. She's only just

started school and she knew her and her sister and the dad. I went, oh where's mama? She went, mama's at work. And I was like, oh is she? Okay. And I was like, I literally dialed back all my work for you children you don't even realize. But yeah, no, it's just a kind of funny moment where they just, they're just so unaware of anything other than that moment, what's happening right now, maybe that day I'd had some work or something. But I think it's a really good, like it's really good to keep you in check and keep you on your toes in that way. Yeah, and also one of the things that I've, because this year I've had a lot of travel where I've been away from them and that's been challenging for me. And one of my friends said to me,

yeah but when they're older maybe they'll see that you took on all these things and I'll actually give them more confidence to travel and have experiences. I thought, oh that's nice, I'll take that with me. Actually I wanted to talk to you lastly about, you mentioned that there's a new project you've got about disappearing women. Can we talk a little bit about that? Yeah, so this is, it came about again kind of accidentally and I haven't really figured out where to take it. It might even just remain as it is now, what it was, which was a moment of women coming

together and sharing their experiences. And that's okay if it stays at that or if it turns into something else, we'll see. I'm going to let it kind of organically happen if it happens. But the reason I went and started talking about this was, again, another ego check for me. But I was doing an interview, podcast interview, and I went to send the interview of my Wikipedia page, because I'd had someone, I mean, obviously some,

whoever creates, I don't know who creates Wikipedia pages but whoever does it had created one some years ago and I thought this will be good for them to have some background. So I went to check it and I just couldn't find it anywhere and I thought this is a bit weird and I kind of, so I looked up Wikipedia and my name and I found this online kind of forum. It was like the Wikipedia police. They're not really the Wikipedia police, but they're just people who are like incredibly invested into Wikipedia. And there was just this really intense kind of

take down of me going on there. This like quite nasty conversations and they were basically saying, you know, she's just the partner of someone famous. She's not done anything of her own right, why has she got a Wikipedia page? We need to get her page deleted. And it was like a little campaign that had been going on. Yeah, it was quite like intense.

And I thought to myself, you know, if they'd been saying, you know, well, she's done this, this, and this, and this, but we don't think that, you know, but we still, we just don't think that she... Why are they doing that anyway? Just leave her. Well, it definitely had a kind of misogynistic tone to it because, and it felt a bit like my work and everything I'd done in my life had slightly been erased. That's outrageous.

But I tried to look at it kind of a bit more pragmatically, but I just felt like if they'd looked at my work and felt like, well, you know, that hasn't, doesn't deserve Wikipedia, that's one conversation. But to say, well, because she's the partner of someone who's much more successful and known than her, therefore she only exists as their appendage. It just kind of, it just sat wrong with me. So I got a bit pissed off. And I thought, what better to do with all my internal angst than share it with strangers on Instagram? Very healthy thing to do. And I went on and I just

started talking about it, but I was kind of coming at it from a point of view as of, you know, I don't know why this has made me feel so shit that it has, and I don't know why I feel so sad about this. And I think it's because I just had my second child and I was battling a lot with the kind of my own identity and, you know, what am I going to be a mom, which is totally a great thing to do, but is this who I am now and will I go go back to my work, and who am I, what am I?" Just sort of all those things going on anyway, so it probably tapped into some more notes. I was just talking about that and about how we as women, when we have our children, the

world starts to shift in our view to us and see us differently. I used the term disappearing women, and it was just insane the amount of people that messaged me and shared their stories. And it was, I just, every day I remember checking back in and thinking, okay, people would have stopped talking about this now. And there was just more and more women going, this is what happened to me.

It was everything from, I got overlooked for my promotion, or suddenly I was in the meeting room and people stopped letting me have a voice, or just feeling that they'd lost their identity. And it was just this, it was incredible. And I just felt this obligation, like, I need to share these stories. And there's something a bit wrong here. And why are women being treated invisibly, like they're invisible

because they've become mothers and it just didn't sit right. And I posted about it and this MP who I've long admired, Stella Creasy, got in touch and she was like, right, what are we going to do about this? And I was like, this is why I love you, Stella, because it's like, yes, this is happening, what are we going to do? And I was just, I said, let's meet and chat and we met and chat and, you know, my answer to her was, well, I don't know, because I don't really understand the policy around it.

I do know that if women do want to be creative and keep working, there are so many issues and obstacles at play financially, practically, logistically, and that we need to look at the obstacles and then figure out how we can overcome it. Yeah, it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because so much of it is, I think a lot of it is, there needs to be a bit of a check that people do on themselves when themselves, how they frame conversations. Women once they've had babies or what the workplace. I think it's just a bit endemic, such as how it's always been.

I think it's a really valuable thing, even if it's just about building community of people who can contribute their stories. And then maybe some of the people that might have been on the other side of that can go, I didn't actually think of that, but you're right. And I think again, it's a really difficult subject to talk about without sounding like there's one way to be a mum or that if you are staying at home and raising a family somehow you're not as visible and that's not at all what the point of it was. I just was really aware about being sensitive around that too and I think some of the things that came up, the conversations,

was the financial obstacles. Women who wanted to do to work or to do things for themselves but couldn't because the childcare was so expensive and it was just one of them had to stay home and be with the kids and if they don't have the grandparents or the aunts and uncles to help. So look at the salaries in the house and traditionally men tend to get paid more so the women will be like, okay I'll sacrifice my workload because having childcare won't actually, if I go to work it won't bring in enough to make that worthwhile. And this is what happens. And one of the things we talked about, Stella and I, and again, I don't know the technical details

around the law around this, but was, particularly with women who have freelance work or who are self-employed, which, you know, women increasingly are when they have children because it gives that flexibility around the childcare. So they might be doing some part-time work or some flexible work or some freelancing. And yet if a job comes up for them,

they can't have childcare be counted as a taxable, tax deductible expense. And for me, that falls heavily on women because it means that often people will say, well, I'll turn down a job because actually it would be more expensive for me to pay for childcare and take the job than to do the job.

And so then there's lost opportunities going on there. So that was just one of the things we talked about. And again, you know, I'm not a policy expert and it's not my expertise or my job to try and fix it, but to just keep having this conversation and to really listen to the women who really have it tough and who really feel that they have been made to feel invisible once they've had their kids and want to do something about it, ask them what do they think could be done. I think that's just an important conversation to keep having. Oh, I agree. That's why I wanted to pick up on it because I think giving people,

as you say, some of people are like, this is affecting their workplace. But even if it's just in your sense of self, I mean you want to be able to feel that you can, it's so easy to feel like you've lost edges of yourself when you have a baby, I think. And I think, again, there's a lot of stigma around breastfeeding and going back to when you go back to work and breastfeeding in public. And again, I mean, you're talking maybe about the early stages, but there's a lot of pressure on women, on the one hand, there's huge pressure to continue breastfeeding and to exclusively

breastfeed and to do all these things. And if you don't do that, then there's all these to continue breastfeeding and to exclusively breastfeed and to do all these things. And if you don't do that, then there's all these voices in your head. And on the other hand, it's get back to work and you need to be productive. And this is the time period that you should be now thinking about what's next. And even just people asking questions, well, what are you going to do? When are you going back to work? So there's these kind of very conflicting pressures going on for women.

And it's not possible for us to fulfill all of them without a lot of support or a shift in the way. And I struggled even with my role on the radio, which is incredibly flexible, with the decision of when to go back into the studio because it would mean I would not be able to breastfeed for that particular feed of the day and all that came with that decision making. So I think just really we need to just keep talking about it keep looking at it. I think we do have one of the worst rates like in terms of but maternity and paternity set up in a lot of other European countries is so impressive compared to the UK. So yeah definitely work to be done but it's I think it's even getting that conversation started is a really important thing.

Oh, I'm so glad we got to chat. Thanks for having me. I think... I wanted to say, Sophie, by the way, and then don't correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we have in our house a VHS somewhere with one of your earliest music compositions. Do you remember Zife Zife the food for life? I'm pretty sure that's somewhere in an attic somewhere. Yes, I do remember that. I don't know why we had to do like these like these food songs.

Yeah and um, Nadia did one about bacon and yeah that was a good day at school. Yeah you do. This is why Sophie had me on the podcast. I have very good blackmail material. No, you do. That's a good song actually. Who knows? You can add it on the B side, right? Wow, Food for Life. I mean, that's so funny. I mean, I'm, yeah, I wrote a lot of songs to my teenagers that are really, I mean, I've got my own blackmail material upstairs as well. I remember when I was writing my first songs and I would sit at the piano and I had this one that was, I thought it was like this really beautiful ballad and it was like, the kamikaze part of me is dying

to be with you. I quite like that. The dramaticness of being a teen though isn't it? The drama, the intense drama. Oh my words. Well, here's the creativity there. Look where we ended up. And thank you for having me on. Not at all, your summer life's tenure as well.

Will be. Thank you so much. I thank you, Liana. What a lovely conversation. And actually I found it really, really ensuring to talk to somebody who's recognizing that doing lots of different things, if you're, you can be really, what's the word, industrious and successful within that, even if you don't know how necessarily to categorize the job that you do. I think Liana put that all really, really well. And yeah, she definitely ain't no slouch.

And that is the main thing, isn't it, about having projects and committing and running through them, even if you sit next to someone, I don't know, bust up and they say, what do you do? And you're like, there's a few different answers I can give there. It can get very bogged down, can't we, and having to commit to one aspect of what we do as being the thing we do. And maybe some people are lucky enough to feel like that is how they run.

But a lot of us don't, actually. So it's nice to have a conversation with someone where they've sort of recognized that and can see it as a positive. Yes. So thank you, Tilauna. And in the meantime, I do seem to have got myself a teeny tiny bit lost. Have I? I don't know. Yeah, a little bit.

But I'm in a really nice pocket of town, so I'm going to do another hour of mooching around. I'm going to head back, and then we're all heading out later for a sort of taco tour, which is going to be really fun. So I'm going to make sure I'm nice and hungry by then. I do love Mexican food so much. And yeah, don don't worry I also had a margarita last night and oh my god there's so many beautiful paintings on the wall and color of houses. I might take some pictures and post them they're so good. Like from where I'm standing I can see a beautiful bit of

graffiti all over the building opposite all sort of reds and greens, and then there's a lovely pale blue house right next to it. And behind me is a door that's painted pale pink and cream, and opposite on the corner is a... I don't know what color that is. It's not even mustard yellow, it's brighter than that. It's a whole building. So for someone like me who loves color, I'm definitely in the right place. Right, the next time I speak to you, I'll be back in Blighty. I've got two people lined up for next week. I'm not going to commit to saying which one is going to be the final guest of the series because until they're recorded I always get a bit worried that it won't really happen. But thanks for joining me with all this. Next series is also shaping up and

lots of love to you in the meantime. Thanks so much for everything and for being part of this series with me. I know I sound like I'm closing up. I will obviously repeat myself next week, but it's been so nice to have these conversations. So you know how much I appreciate it. We're actually heading towards the fifth birthday of the podcast, which is pretty impressive actually. They said it wouldn't last. I don't know, they probably did.

I don't know who said that. If you said it, you're wrong. Alright, lots of love. I'm gonna try and look at my map again now and find out where I am. See you next week. Adios! I'm gonna be the one to make you feel better I'm gonna be the one to make you feel better I'm gonna be the one to make you feel better I'm gonna be the one to make you feel better I'm gonna be the one to make you feel better We get it. Life gets busy.

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