Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 140: Anna Williamson

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

Anna Williamson is a presenter, podcaster, author, psychotherapist, relationship counsellor and life coach. She told me how she suffered with poor mental health in her 20s and after the birth of her first child. These experiences really shaped her and helped form one of the best marriages in her professional life: being a psychotherapist on Celebs Go Dating ( which happens to be one of my favourite shows). Anna has an eight-year-old son Enzo and a four-year-old daughter Eleonora. We talked about her very traumatic birth and postnatal period with her son and how she prepared to protect her mental health after she had her daughter, including banning family visits in the two weeks after her second birth. Even if it did upset her Aunty Sheila! Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Holla don't. More festive, less frantic. Get deals for every occasion with DoorDash. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not.

Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at OnePeloton.ca. Hello, I'm Sophia La Spexta and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself

and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Final podcast series. Yes, how are you? I'm feeling pretty buoyant. I'm back in Blighty. It's flipping cold here in London town.

Just think, two days ago I was sunning myself in Mexico City and now I'm in, I think it's around one degree Celsius in London. You can probably hear the rustle of leaves under my feet as I walk home from dropping the kids at school. But you know what? I'm actually really happy to be in the cold. It's weird. I thought my body would be like rebelling, but I seem to be quite enjoying it. Is that odd? Yes, I think it is. Yeah, everything's been looking really pretty. Today's a little bit overcast, but yesterday was one of those lovely blue sky cold days, and I love days like that. I don't know how I'm doing with the jet lag really. I only got back day before yesterday. Yesterday I kind of hit the ground running

because I had one space left in the podcast series. So I recorded it yesterday. So it was quite good in a way. I kind of got up as normal to the kids for school and then spoke to lovely Anna Williamson who I'll tell you a bit more about in a second. But it's good for my brain I think, just to kind of do something, because I think otherwise you just feel a bit weird.

And then I had a fitting for some nice things to wear for the Royal Variety TV show, which I'm doing tomorrow at the Royal Albert Hall. So I've got a rehearsal for that today. It's quite funny because when I've been doing Freedom of the Night live, I've been doing a bit of a ribbon dance. So basically in the video for the song, I've got one of those gymnastic ribbons and I've been doing it live as well. So I'm going to do it tomorrow night on the Royal Albert Hall in front of the King and Queen. And I think that's really funny because I'm not really very good at it.

I think it's fairly camp, if I'm honest, but I'm also enjoying that. So there you go. That's what's gonna be happening in a while. With some really crack ribbon dancing. And yeah, the kids have been adorable. I felt so good to be back. We've also got these little kittens who are now six weeks old, who are the sweetest thing. So they've been a very good tonic actually for coming back and feeling a bit discombobulated

and just sitting down on the floor of the bathroom and playing with these three tiny little kittens. They're very sweet. And yeah, I am thinking a little bit about the next bit. I've got a couple more projects before breaking up for Christmas, but it's all feeling pretty good now. The other side of that big trip, it was, I want to say, looming, because it was actually really successful and fun, but it was just a long one. I mean, I went all around the world, lots of different countries, 13 flights, don't know how many different time zones, and it was just, yeah, it's just a lot of work and

you just get that feeling of like, please let it all go smoothly. I'm a long way from home if anything goes wrong. So I'm very relieved and now I'm home again and getting ready for Christmas and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, nice things on the horizon. And this week's podcast. So I tried to speak to Anna Williamson before I went away actually, but we couldn't make it synchronize. and I'm so glad we managed to make it by yesterday because she was completely lovely and we got on like a house on fire and also she was a perfect person to invite over for the last episode when you're feeling a bit jet lagged because she's a really brilliant articulator and is that a real word? I

don't even know my brain's not working. She's a communicator, she's very articulate, I'll put it like that. I forget I said the other word, I don't even know, my brain's not working. She could communicate, she's very articulate, I'll put it like that. Forget I said the other word, I don't even know if that's real. And it was just, see my brain's still not working. It just meant that I could, you know, listen to her speak rather than thinking, oh golly, I don't know how to get the information

out of this person. Basically my brain could just be feeling good about life, which is what it needed after feeling very, very weird and not much sleep the night before. And she's led a very interesting life. So lots of experiences with TV presenting, but also being a psychotherapist, counselor, qualified child-line counselor,

so speaking to children and young people who are going through lots of different things. being a psychotherapist, counselor, qualified child line counselor, so speaking to children and young people who are going through lots of different things and she's been through a lot herself. She is married to her husband Alex and they have two children, a little boy who is eight and a little girl who is nearly five and she's she struggled a lot with her first baby. She had an anxiety disorder that led to a breakdown in her twenties and then when she was having her first baby, it kickstarted again quite a dramatic way.

Borderline postpartum psychosis was the end result and she's emerged the other side. But I'm really hoping that someone somewhere out there will be helped by our conversation because I should imagine it's one of the loneliest feelings on the planet when you've had a new baby and you just do not know which way is up and you don't feel you're right and you don't feel ever gonna get back to being yourself again. Someone somewhere out there, well, this will resonate. And so I really appreciate her honesty and her experience with that and her wisdom

because I do believe those conversations help. She's also funny and smart and interesting and is brilliant on celebrities dating. So yeah, lots of the good stuff. It was a really enjoyable conversation. We only recorded it yesterday, so it's fresh, fresh, fresh. And thank you so much to you for being with me for this podcast series, I've loved it. I'll leave you with our chat while my hand's actually about to freeze, because I'm holding my phone out by a very noisy road.

And yeah, thanks again, See you in a bit. Well, I have to say, firstly, I'm really happy to meet you. I feel like I already know you because we've already been sort of chatting back and forth. I sort of feel like, I may have said on my Luana podcast that Louisa has a thing, like she only makes two new friends a year. And the running joke being this year she made friends with Carrie Johnson. And I said, well, I think I'm now going to be friends with Sophie Elis Baxter, quite

frankly. Consider it done. So it's done now. We're now firm friends. Firm friends. And also we got in there just before the year ended, so it's good. We were like, November, you were running out. You only had six more weeks to find someone.

And you're firmly in. And also as well, but I don't know, I don't know if you're aware of it or not, but we, because we ended up doing a bit of a send up of Murder of the Dancefloor from Saltburn. Oh yes. And we, because we just basically pratt around, and because Louisa does live in basically the Saltburn house, we decided to do it. And I said, well, if we're going to do it properly to Sophie's track, we may as well just be naked. Then we realized, probably can't be naked on social media, plus nobody wants to see this tired old body. So I insisted we wore bodysuits, but with stick-on private parts.

It went viral, Sophie. So if you've got any royalties from that one, you are welcome. You could have just cut out the middle and given me two feet when you turned up. So then it was really- You didn't have to go through all of that. I know, so when we started chatting,

I was just like, oh, this is just actually full circle. That is full circle. And another thing is because my brain is not in full-fledged gear, I just got back yesterday after a long haul flight, my brain is a very scrambled jet lag, and I know you're like me, you're a big communicator. So I'm thinking, if there's any very intelligent questions, I forget to ask you, can you just answer them yourself, please? Of course.

Yeah, I will think of the question and then think of the answer. But that's fine. I mean, yeah, I mean massive respect to you for traveling around. I mean, you are, this sounds really really cheesy, but you are my actual hero as a fellow working mom because you have like 84 kids and you travel and you do what you do just incredibly and you're just the you know, the ultimate boss bitch. I didn't intend this to be a massive, you know, blow smoke up your backside, but I'm gonna because sometimes you just need the ultimate boss bitch. I didn't intend this to be a massive blow smoke up your backside, but I'm going to because sometimes you just need to pass that on. Well, today is a good day for it.

Yeah. So you're going to... Listen, I'm a bit croaky. You know, I've got two children that are permanently catching school bugs. And I'm straight off the back of... I've just joined the PTA. Have you? Yeah, I have, Sophie. Well done. Well, I'm... No, not really. I think that was one step too far to try and be relatable So I'm... Have you? Yeah, I have Sophie. Well done. Well, I'm...

No, not really. I think that was one step too far to try and be relatable amongst the other mums. But I'm going to do it. What does it involve being part of the PTA? Well, I mean, they're quite smart, I think, the school, to be fair. They were like, we need a foghorn. We need someone that's a bit of a fixer, a bit of an artful dodger. And I just get stuff.

I'm like, what's on that wish list? I'll tap into someone I know, and I'll get you what you need. Oh, you're a perfect person for each day. That's kind of what I do, yeah. So I'm just like, don't ever... I mean, they did even float the idea of, would you be the chairperson? I was like, are you actually mad? I said, I will be completely transparent about my capabilities in life.

It's taken me to the age of 43 to know what I'm good at, and know what other people are good at. And organization is not one of them, which is why I fully value a team I have around me to make me do stuff and know where I'm going to be. I'm good at executing it, just not good at logistics. No, that's interesting though, because I was thinking that I can totally imagine you as brilliant on PTA. I was also thinking, you've obviously got so much energy because when I was looking at the things you've done, it's a very diverse and exciting career because you've got all your presenting, which has gone through lots of different aspects as well.

It has. There's obviously your psychotherapy, relationship, counselling. So rather than asking you what you would consider to be your main job, I would actually be interested to know what is the job that you think has been like the most formative? Which one, when you think of it, has been the thing where you've sort of learnt the most? Oh, what a great question. See, this jet lag is working in your favour.

It started well. Yeah. Do you know, I mean, that's a lovely compliment. And actually, I'm quite pleased you didn't ask me what's my sort of job or what my favorite job, because I have so many, as you say. I'm podcasting as well. Yeah, podcasting. And books.

And books. Yeah. I mean, and sometimes I sound like I do get a bit kind of, I don't know, I feel a bit volleys sometimes when I kind of reel off all the things I do. But I guess, you know, I've had a couple of, to answer your question in a very long-winded way around, you know, what's been my most formative thing, I guess having suffered with poor mental health has really reshaped who I am really, but in such a positive way. And I know this is a bit controversial to say, but you know, kind of the best thing that ever really happened to me was having mental breakdown in my 20s. And then I had another one after I had my first son, which I never talk about cure,

because we all have mental health. It's all about management and maintenance. And if it wasn't for me having, I didn't know anything about mental health in the early 2000s, who did? All I knew about it was great auntie Doris once had a funny turn and was never to be seen again. She was locked away at an institution. I think that's how terrifying mental health had been pigeonholed. And as we now know, thank God, and I've been part of this movement for change, there was an ambassador for mind and talking very openly

about mental health and destigmatizing it since 2006. It's really important. And just because mental health is physical health can take funny turns, we do need to give it TLC at all times. We end up kind of being a better person for it. And I think for me, my most pivotal moment in my life was it being in my mid-20s, I was hosting KidsLiveTV. At the time, I was doing ITV kids, Saturday morning kids, tele, job of my dreams.

I was in a very toxic and psychologically abusive relationship, which I didn't understand that was a thing. You know, oh, God, sheltered girl, if I'm honest with you. I've grown up in what I'd call a very picture perfect type upbringing. So I, in a lovely way, probably was quite shrouded in cotton wool. So I didn't really understand what was going on for me. I also grew up with very healthy relationships with boys, with men. You know, I've got brothers, I've got a dad, they're my best friends still.

So being in a toxic relationship really was something that I couldn't identify or even knew was a thing. As a result of that, and I developed panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, and I then I couldn't work. It was something that just went from sort of bad to worse over a course of six months. No sleep and all the different symptoms that come under poor mental health, obsessive compulsive behaviors, not eating, I had a condition called Globus pharyngus where you can't swallow, all of these things. And I ended up going to see a doctor who was a psychiatrist, who was only as a result, really,

of my mum knowing who he was because she worked as a medical secretary. Again, nobody really knew. This is only 15, 16 years ago. Where do you go? Who do you see? No one knew. And I remember going into him and it was one of the most cathartic moments of my life. I went in genuinely thinking I was mad and something was really broken.

It wasn't, just things were happening to me or choices I had made and ignorance. And I was in a vulnerable position that basically meant I had a mental breakdown. And through him and therapy, short term medication, I was fascinated by the change in me. And suddenly, it sounds really cheesy, I was like a phoenix rising up. But that is how I felt. Suddenly I learned about me, I learned about my triggers, I learned about mental wellness and I learned about boundaries and all these lovely buzzwords that we're all very tuned

into now thanks to social media. But I started practicing what I preach from you know, from my 20s. And then there became this interest in learning, you know, doing the work, but learning actually how to do the work, you know, learning how about therapy. And that was always my thing away from entertainment and broadcasting. It was never intended to actually transition onto it. But I guess one of the most beautiful marriages for me professionally was that the thing I loved so much and still love, I'm a practicing

psychotherapist and life coach, became something that translated onto TV and podcasting. Which is wonderful. And maybe that also happened at a time when you were ready to talk about it more publicly, because I guess you had to put in the time for you first. Yeah, you have to feel mentally strong to be able to open yourself up to that. I mean, you'll know about that. Everything is scrutinized with an inch of its life. And yeah, a lot of what I do in my personal work, but private work as well, is teaching resilience and self-confidence and self-esteem, which is shockingly bad for

so many people now. And I always say with people, this is with relationships as well, with shows like I do like Celebs Go Dating. We can look at the course, you want to get into a lovely relationship, great, but let's look at you first. If you are a complete shattered nervous wreck with no confidence. You're not in a great space to go look for the love of your life. It sounds really cheesy, but I'm a big advocate of really, really looking after yourself.

I know we talked about it before we came on the podcast, I'm with your husband. It's really important to just really check in with yourself. It sounds cheesy, but don't get... I learned when I had my breakdowns, and that's why I knew the second one was coming, because I mean, I had a baby, and no one throws that into the equation unless you know it.

But I knew it was coming, and I caught it before it went completely tits up. But it is, it's being self-aware, and also not measuring yourself against others. Some people can cope with all kinds of things, some people can't and that's okay. And also sometimes something that looks like coping might not be. How many people are peddling, like most people? And I always say, when I do my private work, in fact I was doing private clients yesterday,

and if ever I take on a new client, you know, it doesn't matter whether I'm on the telly or if it's in private work, they're all terribly nervous when you first come into it. They always feel like they're the only person that's ever been nervous about going into therapy. I'm like, who wouldn't be? I was like, why wouldn't you? I said, you don't know me and I don't know you. I'm going to ask you questions, which are really personal questions you might not even know you knew the answer to.

So I said it makes sense and I think, you know, I think just being in a weird way, you know, the pandemic did a good thing. I think that it humanized people a lot more and vulnerability became more accepted and less sneered at, you know, and, you know, ill, not over the end. And I think there's a lot to be said for British stiff upper lip, and we need to drop that. And that is my parents' case in point. Yes, but also you're right when you're saying about the nuance of the grey areas and language, which now we're much better articulating, that maybe didn't exist until relatively recent.

And I'm sorry you went through all of that. Oh, thank you. Because that's a big deal to have to go through. It is, it is. And bless you, thank you for that. But it's, in a weird way, I feel really, hashtag blessed, but I do feel very, I'm quite philosophical as a person. And I do just think, maybe, be me,

I think I am quite spiritual, but I do just think maybe that was for me, that was my path. Maybe I'm a better person, a better therapist, better coach, more of an empath having gone through that. Because I probably did judge people unfairly before, especially in relationships. I think that's why this naturally came into one of my passion areas,

because I could never understand, well, how would I? I was in my 20s, but how women in particular would stay in relationships with abusive partners. I think so many people go, oh, we just leave. But it isn't as simple as that. It's so difficult. And perhaps someone listening here might be in it. The very nature of psychological abuse, but also physical abuse, it's there to control and it's there to strip you away of who you are.

So to make those huge decisions to leave isn't possible for many. No, and you also, I'm nodding hugely because I went through something similar. Did you? Yeah, from like my teenage into my early 20s. And it starts off little and then like a wedge, it gets bigger. And I think I didn't really know what being in love with someone looked like. So at first, I thought aspects of that must be what a passionate relationship looked like. So you're sort of learning as you go.

Right. But I'm really grateful to it because otherwise I wouldn't appreciate half as much the fact that that's not part of my life anymore. Exactly. And you're right about the empathy as well, being able to understand it rather than, you know, it can happen to anybody. It can happen to anyone. And you know, like, I didn't know that about you. And do you talk about that publicly?

Yeah, I wrote about it in my book a bit. I think it's really important to talk about because I hope it might help somebody. Because people look up to you. Well, exactly that. And I think it's really important to talk about because I hope you might help somebody. Because people look up to you. Well, exactly that. And I think this is what's astonishing. Sad, but astonishing is that most people I talk to can relate on a personal level. And I think this is, when people talk to me about problems in their relationships or problems

with their mental health or problems with being in dysfunctional is, you know, when people talk to me about problems in their relationships or problems with their mental health or problems with, you know, being in dysfunctional relationships, you know, you do feel like you're the only one at the time. And it's because it is so shrouded in secrecy, you know, that old adage, you know, no one knows what goes on behind closed doors. I still don't, but I do a hell of a lot of research and reading and practice with people that are in those scenarios. And I've been in them myself to know that we all put on, you know, to what public face, private face, you know,

and there is a huge element of that that goes on with most people. But I bet the counselling aspect is really fascinating because it just, it's never like a done thing, is that we are just constantly learning about people. And actually I was thinking when you mentioned my husband Richard talking to you in the kitchen before we started recording about the time

in which he's happy to speak about when he had anxiety and tinnitus and lockdown. I was thinking, I wonder if Anna gets this a lot because he obviously, I met you like five minutes ago. People must just open up to you a lot because you've got that way about you, which is lovely. It's like a real quality that. Oh, well, that's very sweet.

It's probably because I'm just a gob. I'm just a gob. I've stormed in your house. I've picked your cat up. I've, you know, I just make myself very at home. That's a lovely compliment. Thank you. And yeah, your husband's lovely.

And I think, but I think it's, I'm naturally curious about people. And I think you, and I guess maybe on a kind of, on several sort of angles really, because I've always been a broadcaster since I was 17. I've been a broadcaster, I love interviewing, I love writing, I've written several books as well. I'm just a people person, people fascinate me. I do a show like Slavska Dating and I just love,

I don't care about any of the fame side of it or I mean it's minimal, but that's not for me and we often say as celebrities, I'm not there for the headlines, they can take the headlines, I don't care about that, I just love the job. I just love this. It's actually funny, I was walking into you today, I've got messages from three of them from the series you've just done, because it's this constant sort of duty of care,

which is lovely. And it's lovely that that rapport is built, but is very genuine as well. But yeah, I love it. I'm like, fresh. Well, thank you. It's so funny. Thank you, I love it.

I really enjoy it. Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. Well, I it. Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. Well, I say I've had a couple of on the blower today, but it's a real pleasure for me and I think where I feel really passionate in, I've been in telly 25 years and telly's great, but you all know it's forever having to, it's challenged by the landscape of working in telly and parameters and bars are pushed all the time for viewers

and more kind of explosive telly and things like this. And what I love about Slavskoe Dating in particular is, I'm not shading any other show by the way, but what I love about our show and the commitment that our commissioners have on it and Channel 4 have on it is that it retains the warmth. And myself and my friends and colleagues on the show as well, Tara, Tom and Paul, we are there because the work we do on the outside is the work that we do on the telly. And we hold really firm to those boundaries.

So probably much to their annoyance at times when you've hired people that practice what they preach, we won't shift for the sake of a storyline. But actually that has turned out to be kind of the heart of the show, in that we don't compromise on values and the show retains the genuine warmth and integrity that I believe it deserves and delivers. Yeah, I think you're right. And probably people turn up thinking it's been one thing and they're like, oh, they actually are going to talk to me about how I date.

Every time. We always say this, Paul and I say this. Have you ever met Paul? No, I haven't actually. He's lovely. He's one of my best pals in real life. But we've been doing it now, oh gosh, I've been doing it like seven, eight years and I think we're about to go into our eleventh season on it. And there's always a formula with most, well not so much now because I think kind of the words sort of

got around that, you know what, hey come on Slaves Good Night and get a load of free therapy and coaching and we'll put you on some good dates in the process. It's a really great show, it's really risk free, you know, we'll really look after you. No one's going to throw you under a bus. You might get a little bit of a roasting from Rob Beckett, who does our voiceover. Yes, it's very funny. Very funny. But other than that, it's a really safe show. We're not scripted, no one tells us what to do. Everything that we deliver is in our arsenal, you know, and we work with our execs on that.

But there is a sort of formula when you see them come in, they come and sit on our couch, which is... and we have no camera people around, it's all done on a fixed rig as well, just to keep it as, yeah, so it just keeps as authentic as it can be. And you see them come in, you know, and they're kind of, as you would be in any typical session, or, you know, but obviously mindful of being on the telly,

and they kind of deliver, I would say, a bit of a patter. Yeah. And they come in the second time, and you can sort of see the penny drop a little bit. And a lot of the facade then strips away, and they're like, and so many of them have asked in the past, some of them don't watch the show, and they come on, and then you'll see,

but session two or three, they'll go, are you guys for real? And we're like, yes. And they're like, you're not actors, are you? No, exactly, they're like, you're not actors, are you? And we're like, no. And they're like, you're not actors, are you? No, exactly, you're not actors, are you? And we're like, no. And you're not being given a script. Do you see a script anywhere?

No. We are this, and they're like, oh. And then that's when it's great. That's when the work starts. And we're really transparent with them. We're like, look, we get it. It's telly. You're going to get paid to come on the show.

Because exposure and all the things. And of course you're taking up your valuable time to come on the telly. That's fair. But you can get so much more out of that. And so that's what we say. The more you give us or if Propez give us, the more we'll give you back. And we do. It's a good opportunity to learn about yourself. T'was the season of chaos and all through the house, not one person was stressing.

Holla differently this year with DoorDash. Don't want to holla do the most? Holla don't. More festive, less frantic. Get deals for every occasion with DoorDash. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need

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I'm working at the timeline because if that show started, so how old is your son? So Enzo is eight, just turned eight and Eleonora, my youngest, she is gonna be five at Christmas. So she was born 2019 which is the same as my youngest. He's January so he's about to be six in January. Right, right, right. So you started Steps Go Dating when you just had her, is that right? But, so you started Slaves Go Dating when you just had her, is that right? Him, my son. Oh, from then? So Enzo was, I always remember, he was 18 months old. Oh, so he was little?

Yeah, he was little, yes. He's just turned eight now. And then some years we did two series and then we did like one series. So we've kind of ping-ponged around, depending on when they wanted to air the show. But actually, when I got Slaves Go Dating, it was... It's always the things in life, things that you don't expect, the things that come out. And I always remember, and having a baby just threw me completely. Like I just, I mean going from zero to one, I mean just the biggest, oh God, God, yeah. And especially as I'm a bit of a, I'm a free spirit, you know, and for me,

the biggest overwhelm overnight was that, I, this sounds awful to say this, and I don't mean it as horrible as it probably comes out, I was like, I can't get away from this. I don't think that does sound horrible, I think it is all encompassing. Do you know what I mean? And it's not about your baby, it's everything. It's the pressure. It's the pressure to not screw it up. And I think for me, it was the claustrophobia, and having, and suffering with anxiety, one

of the worst things for anxiety is feeling claustrophobic. You can't escape its fight or flight. So I think when I had a baby, it was like the ultimate fight or flight kicked in. You felt like you were like that, day in, day out. Day in, day out. It got better, it got better.

Like I had terrible birth trauma with him as well. But that really did start to get better from six months on. So 18 months actually, I was really good. Like we were all good, it all clicked into place. So 18 months actually, I was really good. Like we were all good, it all clicked into place. And he's got the apple of my eye, both the kids are. But I call him my warrior baby, and Eleanor, my medicine baby,

she kind of healed my motherhood thing. I was like, yeah, I can give birth successfully. But yeah, I remember getting the phone call. So I was asked to go and speak to the execs on celebs go dating. I'd found out from my manager that there was a position had come up and they were looking for someone that was more within kind of the therapy coaching route. And they'd asked if I wanted to go speak to them. But I believe they were speaking to a lot of people, you know, a lot of people in all kinds of remits

within relationships, dating, you dating, all kinds of people. So I'd gone to see them, I'd gone to have a chat, that was life. And I literally just wrote it off. I was like, gosh, it's been a lovely show to do, but they're speaking to a lot of people. And at the same time, I'd also been for quite a lucrative voiceover job that week.

And I remember about a week or two went on and my manager called me. I always remember, I had the baby there. I was watching BBC BBC or something and she was like, oh wow. She was like, you're sitting down and I was like what? She went, you got the job. And I went, oh great. Thinking it was a voiceover job.

Thinking, oh brilliant. And she went, no, no, not that one. Celebs go dating. I was like, really? And I was like, why me? She said, well, they said you were perfect for it. You know, you've got TV experience. You also, you know, you you were perfect for it. You know, you've got TV experience, you're also, you know, you're a bit gobby.

You know, I can be a bit colloquial. But also you've got kind of the creds to back it up. And I was like, oh, well, that's great. And then there was the immediate fear of, how the hell am I going to do this with a baby? But you know, my husband's great. He's been really flexible and I like everything really, just sort of make it work, don't you?

You definitely do. And was that, had you done jobs before that then since you had your baby? Yeah, so this is an interesting one for me. Like I, I'd always, I don't know how you felt when you've been a performer your whole life. I don't know if you'd ever had a plan when you were having babies to take time off work.

Were you always just going to go with the flow? Richard and I had only been dating for six weeks when we found out we were having our first. Oh my gosh. So no, we definitely didn't have a plan. There was no plan there? No, and I just released the first single from my second album. Oh wow. Yeah, it was really ludicrous. Fair play to you both.

I mean, here you are five kids later and you know, I mean, it clearly worked. It was really ludicrous. Fair play to you both. I mean, here you are five kids later and you know, I mean, it clearly works. Well, sometimes you have things a little bit forged in a bit of a fire, don't you? You do. I do. I think actually in a weird way was kind of the making of us. And I think also it meant that from the beginning we were kind of a family. Right, right.

So there's some nice things that came out of it. But I think we also found it quite funny, if I'm honest, at the time, because it was so like extreme. We weren't living together. Oh, wow. It really was a, let's see, here we go. Single swim moment. And also, Sonny was born early. He was two months early. Oh, gosh.

So it was just one thing after another. But in a way, we were kind of... I think if you can get on with that kind of drama, and give a little bit of an oasis in the middle of it, it sets you up quite well. I think you're spot on. And actually, I learned, so I should have done everything that you did, which was don't plan, with my first. And I think I probably like a lot of people. I fell pregnant, it was a planned pregnancy, I was very fortunate to have fell quite quickly.

I'm a planner, I'm a bit of a control freak. But that really did go against me in pregnancy because I gave myself no flexibility for what ifs. And as we all know, with pregnancy and birth and motherhood, you've got to be so heavily in the what ifs. And I am now, it's taken me all these years to be, I'm, my husband probably wouldn't agree if I say I'm quite a chilled mom. I'm quite lazy, I'm just very flexible

because I'm just kind of like respond, I have boundaries obviously with them but I'm also quite open, you know, and just like, okay, it's cool, everyone's alive, that's the benchmark and we'll take it from that. But I was very sort of, I was very neurotic when I was pregnant with him and my anxiety had really come back. And when did that kick in? Like for a moment you found out?

A minute I found out, yeah. Wow. Well at the time I was still on medication for anxiety and SSRI and I'd gone, this is 2016, pardon me, and I'd gone to the doctor terrified because I was on this medication and I was ill advised at the time, unfortunately through the GP, to come off it instantly. So there was no tapering.

Right, and also there were- There's been quite a lot about that really recently actually. A lot, yeah, there has. How you have to, well, if you're going to taper, to taper much slower than they've previously advised, but also to really weigh up the pros and cons with pregnancy and how that can kick off underlying anxieties. Correct.

And actually, my second pregnancy, I stayed on medication successfully, could breastfeed through it because I had a consultant who was trained in that area. Amazing. It's a different story completely. So it couldn't be more different in a positive way. So first one, inexperience, ill-advised. I was pregnant, then in free-flow anxiety disorder, raging, which was then masked by its hormones.

Of course. But it wasn't. It was perinatal anxiety, which then transferred to an intense fear of birth and lack of control around that. I then went two weeks late. And to say I was a complete nervous wreck by the time I was laboring was an understatement and I was having panic attacks during labor as well. Oh, you poor thing.

Oh, it was awful. Well, also nobody had ever bloody well told me about a back-to-back labor. And again, I'd never ever, I don't know how your labors were, but I'd never ever had in that birth, neither my second actually, because I had a planned section by design, best thing I ever did. But the first one, I never got a frontal period pain contraction. They were all in my back where he was lying. And that really freaked me out because there's no, you know, the surge and then there was no stop in it.

It was just sort of constant and that really, again, the lack of control. I didn't expect it. So I lost control completely of myself. Hit my birthing, went down the toilet and I could have saved myself 300 quid on that one. So the whole kind of birth was, oh, it was terrible if I'm honest with you. It was long. It was drawn out. Eventually he came out with the help of some forceps. And I did hemorrhage, unfortunately, as well, which wasn't very pleasant. It was a little touch and go.

It was very touch and go, I'm not going to lie. Were you allowed to be with your baby at that point, or did he have to go somewhere else while you were being treated? He had to go somewhere else, yeah. So much to deal with. So much to deal with. I wasn't conscious as well. So it was all pretty horrible. So sorry, that sounds awful. Well, thanks, mate. I mean, I've had a lot of therapy since, which has been helpful. A lot of tears.

But, you know, that was that situation. And I actually just provided me, I remember eventually, oh that was it, I was so angry as well that, and I think this is what's not talked about as much, because when you've had the baby, and I get it, it's a caveat of course, grateful to be alive, grateful the baby's alive, and I do get it, from a medical perspective, that's the tick box. Of course. But then there's all the aftermath and that's sort of where it all came unstuck for me. And I remember everybody sort of just patched it over with, but at least you've got your baby, at least you're,

and I was like, I know. So there was sort of unintentional silencing of, or stonewalling of what I was really feeling, which was, my mom had been given the baby, who was, she was waiting in, you know, whilst my husband was being asked to sign paperwork, he had no idea what he was signing. But my mum was in the recovery somewhere,

and all she remembers is this baby, my baby, just suddenly being passed to grandma, and she always talks about this sort of 10 minutes, she just said, I just sat with this little baby, and she's like, I just had like a little orphan with me, you know, and she was like, where's my daughter? She's like, nobody are, my mom had PTSD after the whole experience.

She did, she was like, what the hell's happening? And then I came in, I was patched up, then I was in, then I was in for my dad. My dad makes me laugh because, and you'll notice as well, maternity hospitals, it's like, it's lockdown. You ain't getting in that ward, you know, unless you'll notice as well, maternity hospitals, it's lockdown. You ain't getting in that ward unless you are a birthing mother or a birth partner.

I don't know how he did it, but my mom and dad, they're country folk, okay? My dad, he's like, you know, his little half-moon glasses, lives in his little greenhouse up in his orchard. That's my dad. He's like Mr. McGregor and Peter Rabbit, just a happy one. He's a very happy man. And he's on the apple of his eye, and vice versa. I remember him as well.

But I hadn't seen my dad, obviously, in days. And I had no idea. But somehow someone had told him that Anna was going through this, and there was a baby. And I remember being wheeled into this critical room. I think I was ICU. I can't remember it, actually. And then suddenly my dad comes walking in through the curtain in his

wellies and his barber jacket and I remember just seeing my dad and thinking first how the hell has he got in here? Like literally scrubs and surgeons everywhere. I think the severity of the situation was why he was allowed through but I remember walking through and I just looked at my dad and it was the first time I sort of connected emotionally about an hour after birth and I just went, Daddy, what is it about seeing your dad that it reverts you to being a child?

I went, Daddy, it all went wrong. Like this and then he, I burst into tears. I remember he came up to me like, just put his hand up and he was like, it's all right, kid, it's all right, kid. And there he, oh, what a lovely little boy. He went, you're all right, kid, you're all right. And I just always remember that moment. And then it was, oh, what a lovely little boy. He went, you're all right, kid, you're all right. And I just always remember that moment.

And then it was, how did you get in? And he was like, ah, I have a way with my words. And he just, and also my dad as well, what he hadn't realized is that I was, because my dad doesn't have a clue, bless him, my married name is actually Deepa Squalley, but I keep my maiden name, Williamson, for work. But for anything private, medical, it's my married name. But

he doesn't realize that. So he turned up and was asking a fan of Williamson. They're like, well, who's that? We have no one on our books. You've still got him. Yeah. He was like, well, no, she is it. And I know she is it. I was like, dad, forget her. But I'm rambling. But that was kind of the start of my motherhood experience, which was terrifying. And I didn't bond with my little boy for quite a while as a result of just the sheer trauma that my body had gone through mentally and physically. Has there been much to help generally with that experience of having a traumatic birth?

Is there other resources now in place since then? Because I know a lot of people where a lot of my friends, I'd go and see them after what had clearly been a traumatic birth and they just look absolutely shell-shocked. You can see it, can't you? Yeah. And also typically now, particularly in the south east of England, you know, birth rates are higher age-wise for mothers,

so which does come with more complications, I believe, statistically. The answer to your question is thankfully yes, there are a lot more resources. I'm an ambassador for the Birth Trauma Association, which is a brilliant, brilliant charity. Actually, it was my community midwife that recommended that. She'd, I did that classic, put some makeup on when they come around to wear your baby. Is everything all right? Yes, fine. I wasn't fine. And I wasn't honest. And this

is why I say, you know, if you're listening to this now, you know, and I say to any other woman, I get it, I get it. Like, it's such a fiercely weird time. And you're so protective of your child. You're so protective of your body and who you are. You don't know your arse from your elbow. Well, I didn't anyway. And I was so aware that other people, excuse my language, just seemed to have their shit together, you know, when it came. Like, I made friends with the woman in the bay next to me when I was giving birth. She's ever so sweet. I'm still friends with her now. And she just seemed to have her shit together. You know, that baby was latching on. I'll always remember, it was 2 a.m. and she got out. She didn't just get out of bed safely. She hopped out

of bed to get her phone charger. And I just remember at the time thinking, how are you doing that? You've just had a baby out, you vag. And I was literally lying in traction still, and I can't even bend over to pick up my baby. I had two things, she hopped and she'd remembered her charger. And she'd remembered her charger. And I was like, damn you. But no, but on the flips, I'm like, good for you. Like, that's amazing. And I think, you know, we need to celebrate all births, but we, and I love when I hear a great birth story, I really do, but we need to also not silence people

that haven't had a good one. Or maybe they, but in their eyes, it hasn't gone, you know, and I think we need to stop, you know, we need to not silence people, just give them that opportunity to vocalize how they feel because everyone's different, everyone has a different ideal, everyone is so nuanced. And there's a birth trauma association, which is amazing. Pandas is brilliant as well, Pandas Foundation, which is brilliant.

And it's also important to recognize, it's bringing the dads here and the birth partners that actually, statistically, I think the stats have gone up now. One in 10 new mothers, I think it's more like two in 10 now, I'd say it's even more suffer with some form of postnatal depression, or I would put it more blanket, postnatal mental illness. So there's anxiety and there's trauma. The stats are actually the same for men. And I think that's also really important because I know that I, to my sincere apology to my husband,

retrospectively, he also was experiencing intense emotions around basically thinking he'd lost his wife, was going to be a single parent for a while. He was shut down by me and everyone else because he hadn't gone through that birth, but he had gone through watching it all and feeling completely disempowered and I think you know it was quite a healing conversation we had when we had our second and I felt pregnant and I was like section straight away and he was like okay you know that's what you want to do and and then I actually remember him saying he went I wasn't very good in that first labor was I and I was like I wasn't very good either I said I think

we need to just not be so hard on each other. We don't know what we're doing. Well actually I was going to ask you with your relationship counselor hat on, what tools do you think you and your husband had that allowed you to get through it actually because that's a lot to deal with and I mean we haven't even spoken yet about where you put that residual anger because I would imagine as part of you that absolutely livid. Because if you look at the catalogue of it, of course you were already well set up to be anxious.

I mean, as soon as the medication was removed like that, I know what that looks like, and I can imagine the emotions and everything just goes rumpf, like it was straight back up. It's freefall. Then you put into it also this traumatic birth, pain, not understanding physically how it was manifesting, hemorrhaging. Although there's so many elements, but the two of you together, what is a good setup? How do you prepare for that?

What did you guys have to help you? I guess we had each other and I think probably a bit like you're saying with your husband when in a different scenario when you found out you're pregnant it's like well we either rather make this work or we don't and I think we were the same and I remember I mean we had some of the most explosive arguments we've ever had in our 10-year relationship in those first couple of weeks because it was a raw emotion. I mean, I was foaming at the mouth.

I didn't know who I was. But also, he'd never done this before either. And he wasn't equipped to, A, look after a baby, but also look after a wife who was, well, he didn't even know I was unwell because again, no one told anyone. And maybe that's just what a new mother does. Maybe this is just what it is.

And then you're sleep deprived. We've talked about that too, which is an absolute walloper. So you've got all of this flinging around. He's trying to work but no, I didn't want to be alone with the baby. And we were all over the bloody place. But I think we realized very quickly that these, that we were both in this empathy is my answer. It was suddenly taking a pause and the capacity for empathy is very, very low when you're in it yourself.

But actually I found that could be quite healing and it made me feel like I was a bit more in control of myself. And I was like, I'm really struggling right now, but so's he. And by me going at him, it's only going to make it worse for me, you know, as well as him. And so I think, I think really we had to just kind of,

literally that whole hands on the table, you know, what are we going to do? How are we going to get through this? And I do remember at one point, I think we were up on the sofa one night watching Strictly or something, and I remember he looked at the menu and he went, it's really hard, isn't it? It's really hard. And I think in that moment, just being really honest was really cathartic.

And like he always says about us, and I love this phrase, just sitting in the mud together for a bit. And I was like, it's really hard right now, but you know what, we'll figure it out. And we had a good support system, we were very fortunate in our parents, who were very helpful. I think we went to stay with my mom and dad

for a couple of weeks because I wasn't coping and his mom was great, she's a real mama, I used to bring round lentils for me. I think we just had to figure it out together. But then second time round, we felt so much better equipped. We knew what was coming for us and we'd kind of firewalled everything. How did you approach that differently then, I suppose? Well actually, this is something that I feel quite passionately about. And again, everyone is individual and different.

But for me, one thing that I hated, and I'm really sorry if anyone that knows me is listening to this, because I'm not being rude or ungrateful, but when I'd first had my son, I... Everybody kept turning up, right, or messaging me to come round and see the baby. And then, this sounds really ungrateful, but I know people can relate to this. And then they'd come with a bloody gift.

And then all I'd feel was, oh, there's something else I've got to think about now. I've got to think of a thank you note, you know, because I'm polite, you know, and that's a nice thing to do. You know, and I... or flowers, oh, I haven't got any more vases, like this is just, this is a burden, this is a, I just don't want any of this, I don't want any more stuff. And everything was just layering the, the burden for me. That's the overwhelm as well, isn't it? It's the overwhelm, yeah. I didn't want to see people,

I didn't want people coming round my house, I just didn't want any of it. And then you get the anger of like, oh great, Oh great, thanks. I think I'll deal with it. Yeah, like I know you want to see my bloody baby, but you know what? So I get it, I really get it. But then the second time around, again with the whole, what would you do with a couple, is again, being really open with each other about that because there's two families, typically,

that were in my case. So it's like, right, well, you know, what do each of us need from each other's, and each other's families, or not need? Because often, you know, it's harder to push your in-laws away than it is asking your partner to help do that, or do they feel, you know, so you kind of got to work a bit as a team.

I'm sure my mother was probably a bit overbearing, but my husband didn't probably want to say, but I'm sure that probably pissed him off deep down a bit as well, thinking, I don't know, all of that's going on. Yeah, nuances all the time. Right, and I think we all know it comes from a place of love and good intention, but we do have to be really honest about that. The second time around, and I know you're going to think I'm a complete and utter weirdo,

and I probably am, I know I am, because they all told me I was. So we're having Elionora, and I knew that I was having her on the 21st of December, because I planned it all, of course I had control freak, doctors all agreed, healthy mom, you know, and all that. And at that point I was like, I just can't have a breakdown again, I have a little boy that needs mama,

and a husband that needs a wife, and I want to be quite a good mom to the next baby. I knew I was having a girl. So I'd planned it all. So I then, I thought, right, I'm not going to do a birth plan because that all went down the toilet last time as well. I'm not going to do a playlist either because that also feels like I'm bigging it up too much. That was amusing because I did have one.

Then I got embarrassed the minute I went into theatre and felt a bit of a wally. At first you had one. Well, I wanted to have one and I'd got it all. I think I'd got Circle of Life on there, and John and me, we got it all in, Sophie. Probably got one of your songs. So then the second one, would it be Christmas? Circle of Life is a funny one.

Circle of Life. Yeah, exactly. I don't know. Mate, I've got to tell you a confession. I used to have this like little, little like visualization in my brain that I could birth in time to that moment of the Simba, the baby's coming out and it's like, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh uh it didn't obviously happen but I genuinely had. I think the level of control is showing itself. Can you tell?

Can you tell? It's going to be in time. If you just hold, hold three, four, and cue. Here we go. I thought, now at this point, Anna, you need to seriously manage your expectations. The pressure you put yourself under as well. So much goddamn pressure. So then the second one, when she was born, I got really embarrassed about my playlist,

which had, I think, the Home Alone theme tune on it, like, Robbie Williams angels, all this, like, really, like, shit stuff. And then I got really embarrassed. I was like, I don't want it. And then it was the morning, slash-d morning, all the scrubs and everyone, they were all listening to, like, Absolute Breakfast radio show. And I was like, are you happy with this? And they were like, do you want to put your playlist on?

And I was like, no. I feel really embarrassed. And I was like, what are you listening to? They were like, well, just the radio. And I went,, what are you listening to? They were like, just the radio. I went, that's fine. If you're happy, let's just get this show on the road. Let's get her out. So she was actually born to meatloaf, but out of hell. Awesome.

There it is. There's the tune. But what I had said... It was something to be born to. It was epic. But then I said in the lead up to it, of which my mum, proper eye rolled. But I didn't care. I was like, right. And I said, I'm going to do this whole pulling up the drawbridge thing.

So when I've had her, I'm mitigating against the mental breakdown. I don't want to see anyone. I know it's Christmas. I know this would be a perfect Christmas outing for most of the family to come and see a new little baby and have a mulled wine and a little cuddle by the fire. I don't give a shit about your picture postcard Christmas, no offence, so that ain't happening. So I emailed the entire family.

The entire family? Just saying stay away till I'm ready. Just saying stay away. I actually think that's smart. I don't even think that's that control breaking. Do you know what? My mum's like, oh, you were quite rude to Auntie Sheila for saying... I said, well, I said it nicely, but I just wanted to manage everyone's expectations that this is a shop until yeah I say you can come around. So you're protecting yourself because you've been through a lot it's not like it was just on a whim or something this is like

self preservation. Self preservation, it's the best thing I ever did they were all obviously great I have a wonderful family on both sides. And they did try. Both sides did try. Oh, I know you said no, but we are just in the area. Do you mind if I... No, no, but it was great. Because again, it's all about preparation. So I teach my clients.

You'll know this as a performer. The preparation is key. The execution's pretty much done. As long as you really fully practice yourself as best you can. I just slightly break my rule on New Year's Eve when, so we were like 10 days in, and my mum was having a few people round for mince pies. She's like, do you think you might bring the baby round? You know, I was like, okay, we'll do an hour of the baby. But I think it's, you know, once

bit and twice shy, I just had a lot more control and boundaries in place second time round. And I truly believe because of that, well, the best thing ever was that because I had my amazing Dr. Cohen, she was my perinatal consultant psychiatrist who was on watch for anything going awry. And she'd also said, you can still breastfeed with your medication. I really wanted to breastfeed because I wasn't able to. I skipped that bit. On my first one, I was put straight on medication eight days after because I was...

Is that when you sort of hit the real... I was feeling suicidal. Within a week of birth? Yeah, I was Googling adoption. My brain was gone. I was hallucinating. I was having intrusive thoughts, throwing my baby out of a window. I was gone. I was hallucinating. I was having intrusive thoughts, throwing my baby out of a window, like I was done. So we made a plan. And also I wasn't producing breast milk anyway because anxiety is like no oxytocin had kicked in for me. The love hormone, everything had shut

down. It was like skimmed milk. So this poor little baby was starving, you know, in the pressure I was feeling to feed him. And the best thing a mum ever did, I remember being at mums at that point, she was, I was like, oh, mum, mummy can't feed him. She was like, I remember her saying, she was like, Anna, smile at him. You know, sort of intense look of trying to get him on, you know, and she went, he's looking at you, just smile at him, you know, and I was like, oh, you know, I'm just, and I'm just and then she remembers she said hmm it's two in the morning she got up with me she went I've got some formula downstairs

why don't we give him a bottle and I was like and I remember going am I allowed to? I was asking but she went of course she went he's hungry and I remember I gave him this bottle and that's where the fog started to just minuscule lift this hungry baby. And then I could lock eyes with him whilst feeding him, going, oh, this is so good, this is good, this is good, this is working. And I think that's for me where the biggest lesson I learned was all of these preconceived ideas on what I wanted to do, what I felt society wanted me to do. Actually, all of it went to rat shit and what I needed to do was just be me society wanted me to do, actually all of it went to rat shit,

and what I needed to do was just be me and figure out how I was going along. And now as a mum, you know, with an eight and an 85 year old, I'm a working mum, I'm a freelancer, I'm probably the happiest I've ever been. As a result of all of that, I just go with the flow. You know, I might be filming in the new year, I've just found out, you know, not ideal with two kids in school,

I don't like to be away from my kids for too long, you know what, we'll figure it out. I've spoken to the school, if it means the kids are going to come with me for a couple of weeks, they're coming with me. You know, I'm not going to overstress about it, I'm just going to go with the flow, you know, a little bit more. Well actually it's interesting you say that about like, I'm just going to be me in it, I think that is, I've sort of learned that about lots of different scenarios, is sometimes you can feel like you've got to step into a persona of an expectation of something.

But actually you can just be yourself when you're doing that thing. The permission needs to come from yourself. It is. And actually I do, some people do ask this and I used to feel it, I don't now. But people used to say, do I feel an added pressure because I'm a therapist, because I'm a coach. And I probably did feel a bit of an expectation around not being perfect, but I guess leading, you know, but leading.

But then I realized that the real value in my work is being really authentic. And do I have a perfect marriage? Absolutely not. You know, do I have a good marriage? Yes. Do I have a marriage that's worth it? Yes. But is it perfect?

Hell no. You know, we're figuring it out every day. You know, it's hard being married. It's hard being in a relationship sometimes. And I think anyone that tells you otherwise maybe isn't being completely truthful. You have ups and downs. Whenever it's your own life, you're emotionally invested in everything. When you're helping to counsel people, you're once removed.

When the emotion is removed from a situation, you can sometimes have a bit of clarity, but when you're in the thick of it. There's a reason for professional ethics why therapists, coaches, counselors aren't allowed to practice friends and family, because you're too emotionally linked. And that's a boundary I very much hold as well. You know, I'm always, as a friend, you know, people say, oh, they were saying, someone asked Paul and I the other day, we were doing a job together. They're like, do both of you always get asked, you know, people say, oh, do you always, they were saying, someone asked Paul and I the other day, we were doing a job together, and like, do both of you always get asked, you know, from friends, relationship advice? It's so funny, we really do finish each other's sentences, and we both went, yeah, they do, and they were like, and do

you give it? We both went, no, because we just don't. But what about, how can you make that boundary when you're just being a friend or? I can give my friendship, I'll give my... I do... That's a great question actually. Where's the line on that? Mmm... That's a good one actually. So there are some things that I do think, oh, I'm not so happy about that. Yeah, of course, because your friend tells you something. But I'll always take, as I would with any, if I was doing couple therapy, I would always

take an unbiased view as much as I possibly can because even though it's someone I deeply care about, yeah, I probably will be a bit more opinionated with it. Oh, don't need to be putting up with that. Or I think maybe you need to X, Y, Z. But equally, if my opinion's asked for, I will give it. I suppose that's how it's framed as well. It's how it's framed, yeah. I'm never going to go, oh my god, he's such a bastard. Because I understand how complex relationships are

and how I'm still only going to be getting my friend's perspective. Yeah, so you can do that as a friend. As a friend, because I also don't know the real ins and the outs, because I know it's my own relationship. On paper, some things, I mean, I'm sure I'm terrible or he's terrible. But actually, when you really unpack it and you see where that's come from, you realize there's a lot more to it than just what's presenting.

So I think just experience has told me that even when my opinion's asked for, I will still be reserved in it. Yeah, I can see that actually. I can imagine if someone comes to you and says, my husband and I are having these difficulties, I think we need to speak to someone, you can say, well, that can't be me. If you're going, oh, this happened to me the other day, I found it really annoying, you can be like, yeah, that does sound annoying. Yeah, and actually, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I can affirm it. But what I will offer, I mean, most of the time,

I can give advice with, it sounds like there's a real disconnect in your communication. You know, I don't know, I can hear there's a lot of resentment going on here. So it sounds like there needs to be some serious kind of, you know, effective communication. There's terrible listening going on here. There's, you know, X, Y, Z. So I can give it from that and say, look, I can give you pointers on how I think you can have a more productive conversation to problem solve whatever conflict you're going through.

And I can see, yeah, I can see where, oh, yeah, that's terrible communication. You're stonewalling. They're walking out. They're aggressive. They want to deal with it in the moment. You need to go away and call off. Everyone has a different communication strategy. Well, when so much of it is down to communication, how does that factor in

when you're doing, because I think it's so brilliant, or your work with child language, but when you're speaking to kids on the end of the phone, what's the next step for kids when, because presumably, but going to try and articulate what's happening or communicate to a parent what's going on is very hard when you haven't got the autonomy if you're a small person. Yeah. I mean...

How long did you... Did you still do that occasionally? I haven't practiced on the phones and online because a lot of the interaction is now online as well for a couple of years. I'm still very much a spokesperson at Basta for Child One. It's such a brilliant resource. It really is in the hell. Do you know what?

I don't think there's anything in my life that will ever cause me as much raw emotion than hearing first-hand from little ones on the end of the phone, particularly when it's voice actually. Online as well, they're a lot more, it's a lot more accessible now, that tends to be how our young people communicate as we know. But when they'd call and you'd have some of these major disclosures of some terrible things that were going on for them. And also sometimes trivial things, but trivial in our world, trivial in our adult world, like I can't do my maths homework. You'd get stuff like that.

But that's huge when you're out. In their world it's huge, yeah. And one of the overwhelming things that really stuck with me and still sticks with me is the level of neglect that's reported. You know, kids that just would give anything to have time with their parents as opposed to any paratrainers, or perhaps in blended families,

not feeling included enough or valid anymore. And I get it, you know, as parents, and this isn't at all parent bashing, God, I know how hard it is parenting myself, you know, and I've got many friends and family that are, you know, in different family dynamics now as well. And there's a lot going on. And I think for me, what I've really learned from working with children in counseling is

just never underestimate a child and their emotions and their emotional capabilities and their vulnerabilities. They are so much more aware and capable, I think, than most people give them credit to. They are sponges. And it's only helped me be a better mother actually. So when did you start doing that? Was this before you had children? Yeah it was way before I had kids. I wonder if that also contributed a little bit to that overwhelm because it's a very sober way to think about a new person existing. To be aware of all that complexity. You know what I've never thought of

like that actually Sophie and I think maybe maybe there was an of that actually, an element of not screwing it up. Absolutely, because you're suddenly hearing all these stories of things that sometimes might to the parents seem fairly inconsequential. The kid has this ripple effect. Huge ripple effect. You're thinking about all of that. Yeah, huge ramifications. Parents that, you know, they come to Childline because they don't

know who to talk to, they don't know who's going to listen. And essentially the role of a Childline counselor is to listen. It's not to give advice, it is really to listen. And it's staggering how many young people don't feel listened to. They feel shut down. And I think that's why, again, as a parent, you know, it's been amazing training for me as a parent myself just to hear my kids. And I'm a parent, I'm busy sometimes, I'm doing 15 things.

And sometimes it can be a real slap in the face for me. My son said it not that long ago, he got really cross about something. And he was trying to explain it. And I consider myself a good communicator, but in that moment I wasn't being and he was like really crazy like you're just not listening to me, you know, and I in it really I was like God no, okay. I'm not stop rethink, you know, and and maybe the Anna before that experience would have gone Oh god, he's so dramatic like sure. I'm busy. I've said no, so it's no, you know shut down But clearly he needed to explain really how he was feeling,

why he was feeling so frustrated. I don't get it right all the time. Hell no. But it's good learning. And I think as parents, we're never going to be perfect, but it's just adjusting. But I think as a child-line counselor, I can think now, it's brilliant that you never leave a session

without being professionally debriefed. And professional supervision in my field is absolutely mandatory and for a reason. You can't be carrying all this shit around with you. That's why people say, and I believe people in broadcasting and telly, now where we are with reality TV, I think execs and everyone should have mandatory training like I've had to be able to cope with the level of emotions and the vulnerability that's plowed on you because everyone's going to combust with that.

I'm very well trained to process it and deal with it. And I have mandatory supervision every month wherever I am in the world. I am on that call for two hours and I am debriefing. I'm offloading and I'm being regulated and I'm having someone check in what I'm doing, check in my mental health, looking at my practices, and having the opportunity to discuss cases as well where I might need a bit of extra input or something like that. But when you've got children, you know, I always remember my first call where a little girl disclosed abuse, sexual abuse.

Your first call? Well, the first call I'd had of that nature. It was quite soon into my training actually. Wow. And I remember sitting there, you know, in my heart, like nothing can prepare for, because you are, you are, it's like holding an egg, you know, a little delicate egg, you know, because this piece of information that has taken a while for this child to trust you to divulge it, once they've divulged it, it's then what do I do with this information? You know, how can I best support it?

But also knowing that when you put that phone down, you don't know the outcome. Can they call back and get the same person again? I don't know about it now. We would often discourage that. We would discourage that. We would be, we're all one. We would know as counselors, we have case notes for every call that comes through. There's case notes and there's a backlog.

So anyone that picks up that call again, we'll see straight, it's all call recognition, we'll see straight away what the log is. And you do a quick check, just give me one second, check of the log. I see you spoke to Natasha last time, Natasha, but you're speaking to me today. But some of the most rewarding work would come from there as well. When you did get kids that, we always call them testing calls when they ring up

and they're dicking about at school. I say that, but we always took every call seriously because as we say, that testing call is testing literally what does this service do for when they might actually need it. Maybe they do need it, but they're not yet confident enough to trust that adult on the end of the phone because perhaps they've been let down by adults their whole life. Why should they trust an adult? So we had lots of testing, and they'd say silly things and whatever.

And then often you'd get a call back. And they would then go into some form of disclosure, what was going on for them. And often, and this is why kids get such a bad rap, most of those kids would end those calls saying thank you and saying, I'm really sorry, I rang up earlier and wasted your time, but you know, I did actually want to talk to someone. And they've put so much faith in,

I have in young people, and that's why I do so much work now for the Prince's Trust. Young people that are otherwise just kind of written off by society, that through no fault of their own have just passed some bad choices. And I really believe that everyone, most people have just passed some bad choices, you know, and I really believe that everyone, most people, have a chance to be better, but that comes with people that believe in you. Oh, I couldn't agree with that more. And I think also there's, I think sometimes we still

haven't maybe have a little bit of work to do with having more resources when you get into teenage years because kids naturally move away from their parents and the home life. It's a natural part of evolution to start, you know, your friendship groups become more important or this kind of thing. But schools sometimes really take their, they don't necessarily do very much to offer, I don't mean like counseling services because that's quite often part of schools, not always, but quite often.

But even just general conversations about checking in on each other. There's a lot of talk about it, but it, not always, but quite often. But even just general conversations about checking in on each other, there's a lot of talk about it, but it's not always implemented. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, and I think it's so important, exactly as you say, to have those services, facilities, platforms in place. And I think that's where, you know, it's so, especially in this digital age that we're in now, which is, I mean, you're living it like I am with kids.

It's just like, oh, God, where are we going with this? You know, it's great in some ways. It's horrific in other ways. But I think it is, you know, I think as much as we can try and teach our children resilience and learning from right and wrong, you know, and, you know, boundaries are so important. But, you know, and I mean, I'm going through it as well at the moment, just with my eight-year-old. Like, he's wanting to play some of these games

that, you know, I deem wildly inappropriate and unlucky for my poor kid, you know, it's something I know a lot about, which, you know, other parents don't, you know, but trying to weigh up how I handle that with him, because an outright no ban, you know, makes him feel punished and makes him feel cross that he has a mum that knows about these things.

So when you say knows about, do you mean things like where it's got an element of them to having like chat facilities with other people, this kind of thing? Right, or if I deem a certain game that I just happen to have done quite a bit of work around or just know a lot about it from online safety or something like that,

that I don't think it's an appropriate game for him. Even though the age says he can do it, I don't believe that there have been more robust restrictions put in place because of the content they're accessing. So when you say you're doing work around it, is this your own research, or is this part of a job that you've been doing?

No, I've been doing, just some work I've been doing, like with some work with Meta and stuff like that. Oh, interesting. So yeah, so that's kind of like a whole new sort of thing around online safety, but again, it's really important for children because I'm sure that with your kids, you know, a lot of their schoolwork is done on platforms and tablets. Yeah, I can play. The school world is around us.

Yeah, and it's important to jump on board with it, I think. Yes, and try and navigate it a bit. So with Meta, be instigating, taking a bit of responsibility in that? Yes, that's what they're doing, yeah. That's a little bit of hope, I guess. Because a lot of these companies don't really have much of a moral compass, I would say. Well, this is it. And I think they have been getting quite a bad rap for it.

And like, every quiz isn't a massive ad for Meta, but I have been really impressed working with Meta and Instagram recently around their responsibility that they are taking for educating parents, actually, as well as young people. And that's where a lot of my work comes in now, is bridging that gap between having your cranky kid, teen, that's wanting to do this, and as a parent going, well, I don't even know what this is. Or I don't even know it exists,

or I certainly don't know how to support them. And I think it's great that they've been taking more responsibility for, this is what I say with parents, like, I don't, God, I don't know, I work in this arena and I know nothing, and I'm terrified, to your point, about with counseling. I can counsel anyone, apart from my own family,

because I'm far too emotionally involved. So I will make choices for my kids that I probably wouldn't do for other people's because I'm far, and I know my children, and I know their personalities, and I know my son, he absorbs it, he's very creative and has an overactive imagination. So if he's different to another child, I might know.

My son will take things very literally if he sees something's inappropriate. So, I think, yeah, I think educating or helping educate parents on how everything's evolving, I believe, is the way forward so that there isn't this disparity against kids and parents and then these massive dinner table arguments happen. You're ruining my life., well you're ruining mine. It's just like, well look, this is where we are with it. What do you want to do?

What is it? Let's have a chat with it together. Let's figure it out together. Let's create sort of boundaries and rules around this together. I've even done it with my son now. Like he wants to play a particular game and I don't like him playing it because, and I've explained to him why. I've explained there are, I know there's unsafe people that can ask, you know, horrible things and unsafe

things. So he knows about not giving out his personal information and things like that. But then I also realized that in his peer group, because this was what was really bothering him, he was like, but I'm the only one now that's not allowed to play on it. So then I'm like, okay, well then I understand that. So then again, I think kids understand actual factual information. And I just said, look, actually I feel really stuck here

because as your mom, I want you to be happy and do what you want, but I've also got to be a mom and look after you. And I was like, what do you think I should do? Like, what would you do if you were mommy? And then, and sometimes that flip and he's like, you don't, well, I would just let my, would you though? I said, would you let your little boy play something

if you thought there was going to be like a really bad person possibly that could say something really, really dangerous. He's like, oh, okay, I suppose so. So then we created, we're working progress this week, I don't know how it goes, but that he's allowed to play on this game, if it's on my phone or device, and I'm around, but he will come and check with me,

can I play this one on the device? It's this, I will check it, I'll go, yeah. And he goes, is it age-appropriate? Yep, you can play that one. And then I'll say, if anyone asks you to join a game that says like horror, hospital or something, the answer's no, but I appreciate you coming to tell me. So we've got a plan now in place of just developing trust between both of us.

Yeah. And I'm figuring it out like every parent. That sounds like such a smart way of doing it though. And I like the idea of you flipping it with him and saying, because I think ultimately kids do like to know there's boundaries there. They do. Let me tell you now, Sophie, they do. And I know this for a fact as a child line counsellor, when you remove boundaries from children, they don't know their arse from their elbow.

And I will always stand, I will stand up until I'm blue in the face with that because I've seen it firsthand. When you have a child that rings you on a counseling helpline that says, I haven't seen my parents in two days, they're 12 years old, they haven't had dinner, no one's put them to bed, no one's got their school uniform out. And on one hand, that first half day, they felt like, you know, kingpin, yay, great, I can do what I want, I can go to bed when I want, I can eat what I god damn want. That soon runs a little bit thin, when on the second day,

you go, actually, I don't know who I am, who's looking after me, who's taking care of me, and I've got no boundaries. And every child I have spoken to, and I know that's a very big statement, would prefer to have, even though the push, kids are designed to push against boundaries, we all are. That means you're doing a great job. If they don't have a boundary to push against, they don't know who they are and they can come on start very

quickly. Yeah, I thought that's a horrible idea. So anyone that struggles with boundary setting, this is what I always say to myself, my husband, I'm like, some days it's like, God, this is really crap being a parent, because holding these boundaries firm is making our lives really miserable right now because we have a really upset household But then what's the alternative I let him you know, let him loose in the big wide world, you know And yeah, what you know, that's not that's not a realistic solution. So yeah, you're right I mean somebody do for that. Oh great. I've got to do that. I know the other thing is like you're not having any

Consequence or anything that you can't actually carry out as also because otherwise they just don't realise what you're saying means absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. I always say to flip it around. In my experience, flipping it around in an age-appropriate way I think is a really good way to teach your child resilience and autonomy because it comes back to choice as well. What would you be flipping around like when you said, what would you do if you were me? What would you do if you were me? What would you do if you were me?

And I say, you know, and obviously you have to know your child to know if that is the appropriate conversation to have, but in that moment it felt right because he was, you know, oh, I went, dude, what do you think I should do? I said, I'm really stuck here. Help me out, will you? And then suddenly that responsibility kicked in and he was able, because it wasn't just a no, you know, it wasn't just a no, it wasn't just parent-child no argument,

it was a conversation of vulnerability from me to him going, I don't know what to do, mate. This is what I think I should do. And he was able to have a much more balanced conversation around it. Exactly, and that made him feel really- Made him feel appreciated and respected. I've definitely done aspects of that but I'm thinking maybe I should have a chat with all the kids when they're around

together. That's a good idea. See how I do about the online thing because I think we are a bit... It's hard Sophie. That's actually one of the... but I think it's also when they've got big age ranges in the house. Big yeah. So the things my five-year-old does are way more than my eldest would have done at that age. It's just different. It is different. Different world and it's all around. Also, Richard and I's work is all on our phones as well. Well, that's quite tricky.

That's the other thing I've had to do with my kids is the same. Most of my work is on my phone. If I'm creating content or I'm... That's how I communicate. I don't sit at a desk on my laptop. That's just not how I work. I'm there. And so they will often, well, you're on your phone all the time.

And I'm like, I know. And I do try and bound you that at home. But again, I explain, I sort of break it down into, you know the roof we have over our head? Well, that's because mommy and daddy work. And our work is predominantly on a phone because we're doing emails. We're not playing Roblox or, you know, Minecraft. A tiny bit of Candy Crush. Yeah, me, yeah, we might.

I might be having a mindless scroll whilst I'm having a pill on the loo. But, you know, that's my prerogative. But again, I sort of break that down as opposed to... I probably may, before I started working with children, would have probably shut it down a lot more and gone, oh, look, pipe down. I'm the grown-up, you're the kid, you down will do as I say, type vibes, you know, like my parents seen and not heard and all that.

But again, it doesn't get you anywhere or it hasn't in my experience. So that's how I break it down to him. I'm like, you know, you want to go, he wants a bougie Lego set for Christmas, you know. I'm like, dude, that's really expensive. So the work I do is on my phone and on my laptop. I appreciate it might feel unfair when we're saying you can only have an hour and a half in the day and it's on a parental guidance. I said, but you are just playing games, which is great,

but you can control the time that you're on and off that, but once that time's out, your time is out, and that's that. But I say, but then we do make sure that we are mindful around our phone usage with the kids. And I try and not have my phone anywhere near me, sort of tea time, bath time, bedtime. Or if I do, I will explain that I've got to do an email, something's just come in that's urgent,

I'll be back in a minute. Yeah, I think I try and do the same thing. But yeah, it's definitely something I need to. But we're not perfect. I mean, I do it all the time. I catch myself sometimes all the time. Well, you know, and I have to pull myself away. You know, the other day he was... It was one of those actually quite crisis moments.

You know when there's like several people on a WhatsApp chat and it was, I needed to make a decision on something that I was involved in. PTA bobs, really? Probably PTA bobs. Yes to the bazaar. Yes to the Spa Hamper. Action land. Yeah it is.

Memo to the Lin in the reception. But it was funny to do one of my live shows actually and it was like there were decisions happening. I needed to get my two pennies worth before someone hit go on something that I wasn't quite ready to hit go on. And that precise moment he decided to tell me that he'd volunteered to join the school choir. I know!

Which is so cute and so lovely and I love that he started. He loves singing. And it was in that moment I was like, ah crap. I mean I actually did let the WhatsApp chat. I had to do a, no one make a decision, back in five because I knew in that moment, especially you know this quite sullen eight-year-old around the gaming thing recently, the fact that he'd gone, mommy, there was a space that came up in choir, and I put my hand up and I've now joined choir and I might be trying out for the national competition.

In that moment, I was like, right, this is where I need to actively engage. That's great. Tell me all about it. Sing to me silent night. I want to hear it all. But we're all juggling, mate. We are all juggling. I feel like I could talk to you for hours more.

I did tell you I had verbal diarrhea. No, I've been loving it and I'm happy. But just to sort of circle back to you said you're feeling the happiest you felt, you know, at this moment with your nearly five-year-old, your eight-year-old, all the projects you've got going on, knowing there's new things coming up, but managing to, you know, just relax a little bit about that very, you know, your desire to control the narrative. So if there's someone listening that is maybe the Anna that was the new mum, what do you think is something you would want to hear if that was you? It will be okay. It will get better and

I know what it feels like to be in the eye of the storm and to think it really won't. Is this it? Hang in there. Just hang in there. Take each day. Just stop looking too far ahead. Just pace, I think, is really important. Sometimes we do just need to be present in the here and the now, in what we're doing in the next 10 minutes, particularly when I've been very unwell. That's all that matters. Too far ahead, too overwhelming. But you know, also when you're feeling well enough, future planning is also really good. But I think just remember you're not alone and you're in a huge club that actually there are millions of members and somehow we all figure it out together. And one of my main things I always say in the book I wrote about parenting mental health, break

your mum and dad, it's okay not to love it all the time because I certainly don't. But do I love it? Like as in umbrella? Absolutely. Best thing I've ever done is being a mum. But do I hate it sometimes? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think there's wisdom in absolutely every part of that. Especially when it comes to body worms. We had a bout last week. It's fine, we're clear now. We're clear. A couple of weeks ago. That's not a fun part.

Anyone that says they love parenting when they suddenly discover their child has body worms and you all have to take. What about nits? That's a fun. We've not had that yet. See, we haven't had the worms. We've had the nits. Well, I don't know which one I'd rather take, but the body worms.

At least if that's just a dose though, right? A family dose, but we all have to take it. Yeah, but that's so much, have you tried combing it? No, but I do not want, my friend Louisa, who I do, Luana, she's just had a knit situation with hers. It goes on forever. Yeah, she said the same. Body worms, it is just. I should have just invested in a knit shampoo company. Well, Sophie, I... Company. Well, you should, yeah, you should turn. And I now stockpile Ovex body medicine because I am now the village body medicine pusher

because you need to have a family pack and then a couple of weeks later, yeah, bush it again just in case, just to make sure it's fully gone. But you know, it's often, you know, Sunday at 5pm, someone on the village chat, there's a body worm crisis. Come round our house, we have the meds. It's you for that, me for the nits. Sorted.

I actually think this should be a national nit day where everybody has to do the treatment and then they just go. Then they just go. How do they survive the pandemic? Oh, I'm getting itchy now. Anyway, sorry. And body worms. Because also, I swear, a lot of kids have body worms, thread worms, and they don't know

it because whenever I admit to it, loads of people go, oh, I don't even know what that is. I'm like, dude, you'll know about it. Your kid's an itchy ass and they have a sore bottom and trust me, they're like, but how do you know? I'm like, do you really want to know how I know? Bend over that bed, kid. Here we go. Spread them and we're in. Head torch on. Head torch. Head torch. I have even got the head torch out. Wow. I am nothing if not a thorough mother.

Hello. Thank you so much to you, Anna. I thought that was such a beautiful way to end with the words of wisdom and, oh my golly, it will be okay not going too far into the future with your thoughts. Just focus on the next 10 minutes and the people around you, they're giving you what you need. It's kind of good advice for quite a few things, isn't it? I hope someone has been reassured and helped by aspects of the conversation that I have down today.

So thank you for that so much. And yeah, what a lovely chat. I felt we could have spoken for another couple of hours. She's like me. Chatty. I like it. It is now... Oh my gosh, what time is it? It's Saturday night. I have had no sleep. But I'm feeling all right.

So when I spoke to Anna, I had that much sleep because of the jet lag. And now it's because I had just a bit of a, just one of those nights. Do you know that book called Five Minutes Peace where the bear, it's like the daddy bear and he keeps having to move around because things are noisy in each room and he doesn't get any sleep? A bit like that last night. Just lots of things happening. But hey, bigger picture, everything's fine. I did the Royal Variety Show last night with my band. Everybody was a really good spirit, so everybody's coped really well with getting back from,

oh sorry, it's windy, getting back from our trip, all right. So, you know, bigger picture, all is well. I've just dropped one of my kids and his mate, Alison, to see Wicked. And got another day of weekend tomorrow, Sunday. I'm so happy about it. I've got hardly any plans but just enough plans. It's pretty perfect actually. So yeah, it's just nice to be home. I've unpacked all my stuff. I just feel like, okay,

I'm gonna give myself a little minute now of not really doing anything. Thank you very much. And the evening's just being home, it's perfect. It's sort of rolling out ahead of me, it's what I needed. I've also got some fun stuff coming up next week, finishing the album and doing a little bit of singing for some of the album tracks, so nice stuff. Anyway, I waffle. This is the last episode in the current series

of Spending Plates. Thank you so much to all my amazing guests. Thank you to Clare Jones for being such an amazing friend and producer. As I'm sure you've heard me say before, I've known Clare since I was a teenager, so to do this project with her has been really lovely and continues to be lovely. She's a very brilliant soul. Ella May who does the artwork for my podcast. I want to send her some love. Not only does she do beautiful artwork, not only is she a joy to communicate with each week, but also she has not been feeling amazing and she's still been very consistent, which she didn't have to be and

I really appreciate it. So thank you, Ella-May. Richard, thanks for always editing my podcast. Thanks for putting up with my ramble chats, my very unprofessional situations I choose to press record in when I'm recording this bit. Like, I don't know, windy road maybe? Yep, that's what's happening now. I know it's not ideal, darling, but thank you. And yeah, always puts in hours to get my podcast on. I appreciate it.

And of course, mainly to you. What a joy it is. It's funny, I've got a little trip I've been doing with every series of the podcast actually, which is that I always finish the current series with at least one more recorded because then it kind of trips me into like, well I've got to finish the series now. But actually, I've never really lost my enthusiasm for finding guests. There's just so many people out there, so many more conversations to have. So, watch this space.

The next series will be a good one. It will be in the New Year. So, between now and then, have a wonderful Christmas, a happy New Year, and, yeah, see you on the other side. We will catch up. Hang in there. Doing OK is good enough. All right, let's have a laugh. Hang in there. Doing okay is good enough. All right, let's have a look. See you soon. Can Indigenous ways of knowing help kids cope with online bullying? At the University of British Columbia, we believe that they can.

Dr. Johanna Sam and her team are researching how both Indigenous and non-Indigenous youth cope with cyber-aggression, working to bridge the diversity gap in child psychology research. At UBC, our researchers are answering today's most pressing questions. To learn how we're moving the world forward, visit ubc.ca forward happens here. Was the season of chaos and all through the house, not one person was stressing. Holla differently this year with DoorDash. Don't want to holla do the most? Holla don't. More festive, less frantic. Get deals for every occasion with DoorDash. Don't want to holla do the most? Holla don't. More festive, less frantic. Get deals for every occasion with DoorDash. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into

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powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Jessie Kirkshank, and on my podcast, Phone a Friend, I break down the biggest stories in pop culture. But when I have questions, I get to phone a friend. I phone my old friend, Dan Levy. You will not die hosting the Hills After Show. I get thirsty for the hot wiggle. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there

was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a twe. I didn't even know a thirsty man until there was all these headlines. And I get schooled by a tween. Facebook is like a no. That's what my grandma's on. Thank God Phone a Friend with Jessie Krookshank is not available on Facebook. It's out now wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com